Business of the House

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his intervention. However, returning to the fundamental point, are we really going to allow the acceptance of the principle of a guillotine to go forward without any dissenting voice being allowed? What the Liberal Democrat—democrat—Chief Whip offered the House was a guillotine of a guillotine. We started off today with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, saying that there will be no developments, no further guillotines and that nothing will happen. We have moved from the presentation of the most draconian guillotine Motion ever seen in this House to a Cross-Bencher who wished to put some points about the principle of the matter being closed down from a sedentary position by the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip—a guillotine of a guillotine. In the long proceedings I anticipate on this there may well be many occasions when it might be apt to intervene. I do not like to see the closure used, but it might be understandable. For my part as a parliamentarian—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has been speaking for four minutes and 39 seconds and is yet to address in any aspect the substance of the amendment he is moving. Is that not surely an abuse of the processes of this House?

[Lord True]

My Lords, what is an abuse of the processes of the House is for the noble Lord to come here and fail to read the amendment before the House. If he reads it, he will see that it is exactly to the point of the propriety of the guillotine and every point I have made has been germane. Perhaps he was asleep.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I appreciate that the noble Lord is hankering after the halcyon days he had in local government, but he is simply abusing the Liberal Democrats. I am very happy to abuse them on appropriate occasions, but we might try to carry out a debate focusing on the direct issues rather than streams of verbiage that do not get to the point.

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[Lord Willoughby de Broke (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support the excellent amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. It is badly needed, because, as so often over many years, this House seems to have forgotten the result of the referendum. It has forgotten that it voted for the referendum Bill, that it voted for Article 50 legislation, and that it voted for the withdrawal Act.

I need to remind noble Lords that the referendum, at which 17 and a half million voted to leave, as the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, said, was the biggest single democratic vote this country has ever had. I am always surprised in this House when noble Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

May I clarify a point? I am slightly surprised at the noble Lord’s position, given what I understood were his views on these matters. He is supporting an amendment which will say that the referendum,

“is no longer relevant and may be ignored”.

[Lord Willoughby de Broke]

I am supporting the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is to add that the,

“referendum to leave the European Union is no longer relevant”.

[Lord Willoughby de Broke]

Yes, I agree with that.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Ah, good.

[Lord Willoughby de Broke]

Those words should be in the Bill.

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[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, perhaps I can help the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. My noble friend Lord True’s amendment, which was moved by my noble friend Lord Marlesford, is trying to perfect the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, by inserting the true motive behind it. It is not that my noble friend Lord Marlesford agrees with the sentiment that the referendum result should be ignored—far from it. I am sure the noble Lord is aware that my noble friend Lord Marlesford and many of us in the Chamber this evening fully wish to respect the result of that referendum. My noble friend is trying to make plain what this Motion is all about.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Of course I understand that it is intended to be some sort of ironic statement. But noble Lords who support this amendment must be clear that, if they vote for it, their names will go down in Hansard as believing that the referendum result no longer matters. That is what their vote will be cast as saying.

[Baroness Noakes]

I do not think that that would be the case. If anybody reads in Hansard what my noble friend Lord Marlesford has said this evening, they will know exactly what he thinks about the result of the referendum.

I would like to make an additional point in respect of the referendum result, in which 52% of the country voted to leave the European Union and 48% voted to remain. In your Lordships’ House, we have never come close to reflecting the political reality in the country—far from it. That is why, whenever a Motion relating to Brexit is moved, the result always opposes that of the referendum in one way or another. This House needs to think carefully about its legitimacy if it continues to act in a way that is out of line with popular feeling in the country. I believe that this applies also to the other place, where parliamentarians vote in a way that is wholly unlike the referendum result.

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Moved by

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

That the Question be now put.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)]

I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a Member who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord still wish to move the Motion?

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Yes.

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[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. We had an exchange earlier about irony and the value of having ironic insertions into this Motion. I am assuming that, on the basis that this is another example of the ironic wit of the noble Lord, Lord True, which she is now channelling on his behalf, this will be an extremely brief introduction, because we have already done the irony bit, and we can then move on.

[Baroness Noakes]

I cannot promise the noble Lord something extremely brief, as I am sure he is aware. To be clear, this is about ensuring that the Motion is framed in wholly honest terms.

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[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I think we are drifting, I beg to move that the Question be now put.

[Baroness Noakes]

I have to advise the noble Lord that I have not yet moved the amendment. I am only speaking to it; the Question cannot be put.

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Moved by

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

That the Question be now put.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, since we have already had a de facto debate, I move that the Question be now put.

[The Lord Speaker]

I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered to be a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a Member who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord still wish to move the Motion?

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Yes.

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[Lord Framlingham]

I think the British people are now totally confused and utterly fed up with politicians and Parliament, and they simply want Brexit done, in the way the Prime Minister proposes. We should get on with it.

This guillotine Motion is outrageous, but it is only another blow, in a long line of such actions, to the workings and stature of the House. The opposition parties will use any device, existing or created by them, to frustrate normal government. Their treatment of the Northern Ireland Bill is a very sad case in point.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Could I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, to paragraph 4.23 of the Companion? I appreciate he will not have it with him, but it says that:

“Debate must be relevant to the Question before the House”.


While his remarks about Northern Ireland are very interesting, they are not relevant to the item before the House.

[Lord Framlingham]

I assure the noble Lord that I will take a copy of the Companion with me when I go home. I am talking about the guillotine Motion and all that relates to it. The guillotine is what we are talking about now. We are about to introduce an extraordinary measure; I do not know why the House is so relaxed about it. We will come on to the essence of guillotines later, but I am talking about manifestos at the moment. The idea that the House of Lords should introduce a guillotine is quite ridiculous.

I was making the point that the Northern Ireland Bill was used to bend normal rules. To try to force the Government to report to the House of Commons in the period leading up to 31 October, the Opposition sought to table an amendment in the House of Commons. The Speaker did not allow it, so, taking advantage of our lenient rules on tabling amendments, they persuaded someone here to table it. It was duly passed in our House, where the Opposition, in this case, have a guaranteed majority. When it arrived back in the Commons, it was then deemed to be within the scope of the Bill. The Opposition promptly tabled their own amendment and it was passed. Finally, it was passed again by us. What a crafty and very sad way of circumventing our normal proceedings.

I will briefly read a quote relating to that from a Member of the other Place responsible for it. I will not name him in case I am in error again. He said, as they were trying to do this:

“Would my right hon. and learned Friend first agree that the reason that Mr Speaker quite rightly did not select new clause 14 is that it would not have been within the scope of the Bill as unamended, but that, if amended by my right hon. and learned Friend’s amendments, new clause 14 would probably be brought into scope? Secondly, does he agree that their lordships in the other place take a rather wider view of scope than is typically taken here, and therefore there is ample reason to suppose that, given the majorities we know to exist in the House of Lords, new clause 14 in some form is actually likely to be added to the package and therefore to be operative?”.


His colleague said:

“Yes, I do agree. That is certainly one of the reasons this should go to the other place”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/7/19; cols. 243-44.]


There you are: that is how we are used and abused when it is appropriate.

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[Lord Framlingham]

If the House does not like what I am saying, I apologise, but I am hardly filibustering. Sadly, those opposed to us leaving the European Union will stop at nothing and manifesto commitments clearly can be dispensed with. The result will be that the public will lose even more of their trust in politics and politicians when they go to the country. The implication for our political system is frightening. We must return to the tried and trusted ways of running our affairs and seek to win back the trust of the people. I urge Members opposite who are supporting these measures, and who I feel sure care about our Parliament and our constitution, to look into their hearts and draw back from these dangerous and draconian measures.

I will end with a brief manifesto from myself. I believe this should be our vision for the United Kingdom. As a nation, with all we have to offer the world, we should show self-belief without arrogance, conviction without pomposity, determination without aggression, competition without rancour, and leadership without conceit. We must champion our deep-rooted belief in the value and integrity of the nation state and our distrust of blocs that attempt to harmonise and formalise unnatural groupings. Europe should be a flexible jigsaw of independent nation states, working closely together but each one able to flex separately in response to its individual needs. Cementing nations together in blocs or unions produces a stultifying rigidity, tension, friction and ultimately cracking and break-up, which is now beginning to happen in the EU. We are not tearing ourselves out of the heart of a thriving organisation, but sensibly detaching ourselves from an ailing bloc that has within it the increasingly obvious seeds of its own destruction. We will provide more help and support to the EU in the long term as a strong and independent ally, not as a permanently disgruntled partner. We must have the courage of our convictions, faith in our country and determination to honour the decision we took in the referendum. There might be short-term problems, but most of them are hugely exaggerated and a bright and stable future awaits us.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I beg to move that the Question be now put.

[The Lord Speaker]

Is this a suitable time to intervene before the closure Motion?

Moved by

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

That the Question be now put.

[The Lord Speaker]

I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered to be a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a Member who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord still wish to move the Motion?

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Yes.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

I intervene on my noble friend now, because if he moves his amendment the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will move the closure and I will not be able to—

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

It is not my turn.

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[Lord True]

My Lords, I am further encouraged by the increasing numbers of “No” on the other side. I remind the House, and everybody who takes any interest in this debate, that the power lies on that side—there with the Liberals and the Labour Party, which have seized control in the House of Commons.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

This is about the 15th time that the noble Lord has made this point. Could he remind the House that the decisions being taken are being made by the whole House on a vote? It is not something which is just the product of the Labour Party or the Liberal Democrats. It is a decision of the House, and that is how it should be.

[Lord True]

The noble Lord can put his interpretation on it as he wishes; the Division lists will demonstrate who is closer to the truth. There will be a balance of opinion on the Cross Benches. I find it entirely extraordinary that the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, having forced through legislation in the House of Commons for perfectly good reasons of their own, now wish, before the Bill had even been presented—it has now been presented, we saw it arrive—to force a guillotine on this House. It is, again, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, with some noble Lords in other parties; the bulk of the votes are there. Our proceedings are being broadcast, if anybody is watching. Those sitting opposite are on the Labour Benches; next to them are the Lib Dem Benches.