Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Urgent Question Repeat: Implications for national security and the management of terrorist offenders following disruption to the Separation Centre regime

The government is. Carefully considering the findings of Jonathan Hall cases independent review into the operation of.

15:38

Lord Keen of Elie (Conservative)

- -

Separation centres, which was commissioned following the dreadful attack. At HMP Frankland in April this year. And we will publish Mr. Hall's report. Our response in due course. But also, I would add, in imminently when it comes to the regimes in our separation centres, members of your Lordships' House will be pleased to know that I've been to to see the centre at HMP Frankland and meet a number of the staff who are, I have to say, incredibly brave and professional public servants, and we are doing a number of operational improvements

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to improve their safety as well. My Lords. The. Finding by the High Court.

15:39

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The. Finding by the High Court. That any prisoner in England, whoever they may be, has been subjected to inhumane.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

subjected to inhumane. Or degrading. Treatment shames us all. My Lords, we all understand the need

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Lords, we all understand the need for separation centres for high. Risk terrorist offenders. But can. The noble Lords say what steps

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The noble Lords say what steps the government will now be taking in the light of the Abu judgement, to ensure that prisoners in to ensure that prisoners in separation centres are not so cut off from human contact as to endanger their mental health, and that all such prisoners have access to adequate, high quality psychiatric care as Abu did not.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The the separation centres protect the public from the most protect the public from the most serious offenders and the a small number of prisoners held in these centres, and the regime is the

15:39

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (Liberal Democrat)

- -

centres, and the regime is the purpose of activity. Limited association and rehabilitation, and the noble Lord will know that that word rehabilitation is something that is really important to me and also what is what is very clear from having met the staff who work in separation centres is that they're not all classically trained prison officers. A number are psychiatrists, psychologists, experts in security and so on. And it's very much a team effort of what they do to make sure we run good regimes.

That has a real focus on rehabilitation. And also, if I could just add that I'm really looking forward to getting into more of the detail on Jonathan more of the detail on Jonathan Hall's report and also when it's published with the recommendations, because it's going to be very helpful to us as we look to the helpful to us as we look to the future about how we run these very system.

15:40

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

- -

Does my noble friend agree with me that there is no inconsistency with having adequate separation in the context of of terrorism offenders and complying with our most basic and fundamental human rights obligations? And in the light of noble Lord Lord Marks question and crucially, the decision of Mr. Justice Sheldon last week, all we need to do, and I know my noble friend is is an expert in these matters, is to ensure that appropriate mental health provision is made for any offender, particularly those who are isolated for long periods in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the day. I thank my noble friend. We're carefully considering the High carefully considering the High Court ruling on the Abu case, including considering appealing the decision, and our decisions are decision, and our decisions are based on risk and proportionality of our response. Of that risk is how we make our decisions and how we make our decisions and someone's mental health in throughout the whole justice system is something that is a very

15:41

Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)

- -

is something that is a very important factor in how we manage everyone's risk, from whether they're on a first night or a first time in prison, to whether they have been in in the system for a very long time. And I am proud of so many of my colleagues who spend so much of their time in our prisons and also our probation staff too, who really go out of their way to support people with their mental health requirements. But also what is clear is the support that we give our NHS and health providers in our prisons is really important too.

We need to enable that. They have the right space and time to work with people who are often very vulnerable.

15:42

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

- -

My Lords, there is a gaslighting quality about the High Court judgement that the public sector equality duty was breached because no consideration had been given to decisions which meant a cohort of prisoners, all Muslim, were treated in a particular way. This could, the judge said, have been perceived as a form of collective punishment against Muslims. My Lords, all inmates in the separation centre are Muslims. 75% of MI5's counterterrorist caseload are Islamist extremists and 63% of prisoners for terrorism related offences are Muslims.

When I visited HMP Frankland in 2022, a prison officer in the separation unit told me that they were perpetually, and I thought, dangerously constrained by the PTSD and human rights legislation. Will the government appeal this judgement and strenuously reassure prison governors that they can and must continue to use separation units to keep officers, prisoners units to keep officers, prisoners and the public safe? Yeah. and the public safe? Yeah.

15:43

Lord Farmer (Conservative)

- -

The. As I as I said to my noble friend, we're considering appealing the decision. And also what is important is that the staff who work in in our separation centres have the skills that they need to care for the people who are in that separation centre. But I also go back to the Jonathan Hall work that we commissioned him to do. And, you know, the the system is robust, but we always need to look for improvements. And that is why we've asked Mr.

Hall to look at all of our separation centres and the policies that we have to make sure

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that it is right for the future. My Lords. Does my noble. Friend

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords. Does my noble. Friend the. Minister agree with me? Sorry, does my noble friend, the Minister think that we are doing enough to

15:44

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

- -

think that we are doing enough to keep our staff safe in our prisons, with increasingly violent prisoners

**** Possible New Speaker ****

challenging authority? What else is being done? My noble friend is right to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My noble friend is right to raise this question. One of the things that surprises me going around prisons now, compared to 25 around prisons now, compared to 25 years ago, is how much more violence there is on our wings, and violence there is on our wings, and that is probably a combination of the amount of drugs in our prisons and the number of people with severe mental health issues, but severe mental health issues, but also people serving very long sentences. But one of the things sentences.

But one of the things that we are doing is investing in protecting our staff, because, as my noble friend said, our staff do my noble friend said, our staff do an amazing job, often in very difficult and dangerous situations. So that's why we've invested £15 So that's why we've invested £15 million in 10,000 personal body armour, jackets and suits. And also

15:45

Baroness Ramsey of Wall Heath (Labour)

- -

armour, jackets and suits. And also we're getting 500 staff trained in how to use tasers. And every other week I speak to prison leaders. And last week I was talking to the governors of the long term high secure estate. And they were telling me how much, how much reassurance the staff have had from the fact that they're now getting protection.

15:45

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

- -

Could I ask, could I ask the noble Lord, the Minister, whether or not the prison service has sufficient resources for the mental health issues they have to deal with?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I'm not an expert in healthcare, but I'm an expert in prisons. And but I'm an expert in prisons. And what I see is prisoners getting incredible levels of support. But often in regimes that are that are running hot. So I my personal assessment is, is that prisoners assessment is, is that prisoners are getting very good care. But but within a system that is struggling. And so what we need to do is to And so what we need to do is to make sure we have a much more stable prison environment.

And that is why running prisons, when you literally have no space left is very, very difficult to to run everything, to get people out of everything, to get people out of their cells and to get the support that that people need. But I also think it's important to have the right facilities and some of the new prisons I've seen that we've built. The medical facilities are excellent and appropriate because we're dealing with people who are often very, very ill. Their life,

15:46

Baroness Butler-Sloss (Crossbench)

- -

the life expectancy of someone in a prison is much lower on average, than someone who hasn't been to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

prison. So we need to do all we can to support people with their mental health, but also their other health issues as well. My Lords, my.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, my. about. Increasing violence. In prisons. Is that as true in.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Is that as true in. Women's prisons. As it is. In men's prisons?

15:47

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In men's prisons? I don't know the exact facts. And I will write to the noble Baroness on the exact details on Baroness on the exact details on violence in women's prisons. But what I can tell you, there are two facts that I think are very, very worrying. The rate of self-harm in a women's prison compared to a men's prison is eight times higher, and 60% of women in prison have brain damage as a result of being hit. So we're dealing with some people with severe illnesses, and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

that is what we need to do to support them. My Lords, I'll give. A minute for people to.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Leave the chamber. If they want to before next

15:47

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Labour)

- -

15:48

Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Base in British Indian Ocean Darlington.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Darlington. I beg the House to again resolve itself into a committee upon the bill.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

bill. The question is that the House do now again resolve itself into a committee on the bill. As many as committee on the bill. As many as that opinion will say, content and the contrary, not contents.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The contents have it. In clause one, amendment 17.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

In clause one, amendment 17. Lord Callaghan. My Lords, I rise to propose the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I rise to propose the amendments in my name on this group. The trust fund set up for the Chagossians is absolutely central to this treaty. Under article 11, the Mauritians have been given the the Mauritians have been given the responsibility for administering the fund, which will be paid for,

15:49

Legislation: Diego Garcia Military Base and British Indian Ocean Territory Bill - committee stage (day 2) - part one

the fund, which will be paid for, of course, by the UK, but we still do not have any clarity on how Mauritius will manage the fund, and we seem to have no say in it whatsoever. The reality of Mauritius past record is, of course, also a cause for concern, since the forced removal of the Chagossians from the archipelago, many Chagossians have lived on Mauritius and in the 1970s, as has been pointed out a number of times in the debate so far, the UK government paid £4 million into a

15:51

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

- -

trust fund for the benefit of registered Chagossians, so I'd be very interested to know the government's assessment of whether that trust fund has indeed been a that trust fund has indeed been a success. Does the government, in fact, have any concerns about the way Mauritius has managed that fund way Mauritius has managed that fund before we offer to donate cash for another one. If the government is another one. If the government is concerned about Mauritius's past actions in this area, what additional assurances have additional assurances have Ministers sought from the Mauritian government to prevent mismanagement, corruption or failure to properly corruption or failure to properly distribute funds in future? The domestic reality, of course, of this arrangement is also worrying.

this arrangement is also worrying. Many Britons will struggle to understand why we are transferring funds to a foreign government so that they can manage a trust fund on our behalf. Does this mean we are transferring funds without proper control over how those proper control over how those monies are spent? What powers will the UK have under the treaty to the UK have under the treaty to ensure that Mauritius is in fact fulfilling its responsibilities? These are all important questions. Many members have raised it in the debate so far that I believe Ministers should seek to answer Ministers should seek to answer either at the despatch box or on the face of the bill.

Turning to amendment 17, in my name and amendments 26 and 28, in the names of my noble friends Lord Lilley and Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, these relate to the employment of Chagossian citizens on the military base. The treaty makes provision for the employment of Mauritians on the base, and we debated issues related to that provision in an

Feed Live - Click to view video

Return to start of debate - Return to top of page