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Live Debate
Lords Chamber
Lords Chamber
Thursday 20th March 2025
(began 5 months ago)
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This debate has concluded
11:06
Oath taking
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11:08
Oral questions: Impact of working from home on the productivity of the public sector
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First First Oral First Oral Questions, First Oral Questions, Lord
11:08
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Londesborough. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
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Paper. Noble Lords will want like me to
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Noble Lords will want like me to thank the public sector for their continued dedication and for what they do day in and day out. As my
they do day in and day out. As my noble friend from the Lordship's House last year, during a similar question, the government inherited a
situation where productivity remained 6.4% below pre-pandemic
levels. This is clearly unacceptable. Our focus is on a fundamental reform of our public services, to drive greater efficiency and productivity. Further details will be set out in a next week's spring statement and the forthcoming spending review.
11:08
Lord Londesborough (Crossbench)
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I thank the Minister, but I'm
rather perplexed. If economic growth is the government is a top priority,
why is it failing to conduct a full and proper assessment of the impact of working from home, across the
public sector? Not least because, the 7% fall in public sector
productivity, since the pandemic has coincided with the surge in remote
working. There are key questions to answer, whether it is by sector, or by job function, for both management
and their employees.
Especially young. It is not a one-size-fits-all
approach issue. As in the private sector is rapidly discovering. Can
the Minister explain why the government remains so resistant to learning?
11:09
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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I thank the noble Lord for his question, I'm sorry I do not agree
with the sentiment behind it. In the budget last year, the Chancellor announced hundred million pounds
public sector reform and innovation fund. Which is established trust and learn approach about how we can
deliver public service reform. I think we should be very clear that according to the CIPD, 60% of
private sector, the overwhelming majority of private sector
organisations also now operate hybrid working, at 60%, which is the same level as in the public service same level as in the public service and the same level as the Civil Service.
11:10
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
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If we're going to raise public service productivity, we have clearly got to tackle training and
skills. The coalition government sold off the National School of government and over the last few
years and much of the training environment and services has been outsourced, often to management
consultancies. What is the Government doing to bring training
back, in-house and to make sure that there is upscaling, for the whole of
the public service and on a fully professional basis. professional basis.
11:10
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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This government is absolutely committed to the re-prioritisation of our workforce and delivering
front-line services. Which will require ongoing upscaling and training. In terms of bringing it
in-house, I look forward to ongoing
conversations with my noble friend the Minister, sitting to my right about how we will collectively work together across government to achieve it.
achieve it.
11:11
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)
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The answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lawrence Brewer's question as
to why the government are not tackling this problem. The same as why the policy has been changed on schools. Why their whole approach to employment and policy is being
changed. It's because this government is run by the trade unions.
11:11
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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I think many general secretaries
of the trade unions would wish that to be the case. As a former trade union officer I'm very proud that
this government is embedded and wedded to Labour and trade union
values. One of the things, however that we are doing is working with our trade unions and to deliver
change to make sure that flexible working and our new normal, I think
noble Lords will appreciate we are now five years on, from the pandemic, when we had 80% of the
workforce working from home.
We are now having new normal and as we look to see what people's expectations are and how we can deliver on those
and on the delivery of our promise of economic growth, that we can work with all parties, trade unions and with all parties, trade unions and employers to deliver it.
11:12
Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)
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Flexible working can give great benefits both to employees and
employers, in particular, in the public sector. But will my noble
friend consider the importance of making sure that there are times at
which people do attend work, where they can in person. Not least to build the sort of teamwork and
camaraderie, particularly for younger workers, at the beginning of
To benefit from personal up close experience with their more senior colleagues.
11:12
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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The noble Earl raises a very important point. I think most of us
in your Lordships' House benefited from being in workplaces so we can be mantled and learned from those
people who are more experienced. I definitely do it every day in your Lordships' House. In terms of making sure that people working from home, I think the easiest example for me
I think the easiest example for me
to give, working in the office, the easiest example is the Civil Service who are now required, as the previous government established, to
work in a 60% of their time in office environments.
In order to ensure that institutional knowledge
is passed on both ways, both from
new starters and to those of more experience, but awful for those more experienced to learn from new approaches to the world in which we live.
11:13
Baroness Finn (Conservative)
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We heard what the noble Baroness and the Minister said about working
with the unions. Last month the FDA Civil Service union published their
findings, that almost 2/3 of the staff they surveyed felt having to
work in the office three days a week decreased their productivity. With a Baroness in the Minister confirm Baroness in the Minister confirm whether the FDA's findings tally with the government's own official analysis of the impact of the three day in office rule.
11:13
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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My honourable friends, in the
other place has been clear that we
Working in the office. We genuinely believe that there is a social capital developed from having office
based approaches and we are committed to retaining a 60% of the staff, in the office, during their contracts. I think we also should
reflect on the fact that one of the opportunities has been, we have been able to consolidate the estate and
one example of which is one of Victoria Street which was recently
sold has saved annual savings of £30 million a year.
This gives us an
opportunity, in terms of hybrid working, but also ensuring that we are getting the most value for money for the public purse.
11:14
Lord Carlile of Berriew (Crossbench)
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With the noble Lady agree that her impact in the Division Lobby
would be much decreased if she was
online. Does she also agree that in important meetings, the impact of everybody being in the same room is
a much better than when part of the meeting is online stop does she agree that we should apply that
standard to
11:15
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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My Lords I am not brave enough to
answer the final point. With regards to my performance in the Division Lobby, I think most noble Lord have now experienced that. I can either apologise, or be grateful for my
performance. In terms of hybrid, in
terms of online working and how we use technology, personally, I benefit from sitting in the same room, during meetings. I definitely
absorb more. Noble Lord will know that I do a great deal of work with a Northern Ireland Office and all of our meetings have to be hybrid,
because of where people are.
That is the case for most of us who are operating in government. Our
officials are spread. To make sure we hear regional voices in National Voices, from nations and regions, it is really important that we operate
is really important that we operate
11:16
Lord Blunkett (Labour)
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Returning to the question about skills and training, would by noble
friend talk to her noble friend on
the bench and in the Commons, to about re-establishing a new form of the Civil Service college which
could be done with the Federation of universities at a fraction of the universities at a fraction of the price that is going to be charged by EY, until this government stopped it, back in July.
11:16
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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My noble friend knows how
enormously fond I am of him, and don't want to disagree with them, on
don't want to disagree with them, on that basis, I will have all of those conversations. conversations.
11:16
Lord Bellingham (Conservative)
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There is a big difference between
those working as analysts and those who are public facing, like DVLA. On the HMRC agenda, she is aware that this organisation has underperformed, in terms of
answering telephones, indeed of the public, can she tell the House habit
is getting at the moment? is getting at the moment?
11:17
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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I thank the noble Lord for his question, he is absolutely right to raise it. In 2023-24, HMRC only answered 66.4% of phone calls when
customers wanted to speak to an adviser. I want to update the House that in quarter three of Glasgow,
which is the most recent figures we have, handling was 85%, so, we are making significant advancements, and
one of the things that has been most effective is that we are now dealing
with the majority of people on their first call, dealing with that answer on that point, and 80% of customer
on that point, and 80% of customer correspondence is now being issued in days.
11:17
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (Crossbench)
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The special enquiry of home-based
learning of which I am a member, is finding evidence from private sector employers that they are looking at innovative ways to measure productivity. But more importantly,
to see what happens in the kind of telephone call that you have just referred to. Because accurate
information is always given. So, what plans does the government have
to measure productivity and a more sophisticated way for public sector workers working from home?
11:18
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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The noble Lady raises a really
important point and it is something the government is currently reflecting on in terms of how we do it. I would like to highlight to all
noble Lords that the House of Lords Select Committee on home-based
working currently has a call for evidence that closes on 25 April and we look forward to hearing their report in November to reflect on their recommendations. their recommendations.
11:18
Oral questions: Givings schools the capacity to make assessments of commonly-occurring special educational needs
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Second oral question, Lord Addington.
11:18
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper undermined the House of my declared interest with the
Association of Metrolink BSC.
Expertise in mainstream settings to ensure all children and young people
receive the support they need to thrive. To do this, we are funding the universal services program, which is supporting professionals to
access 20,000 SEND specific training modules, the program to support around 1,600 primary schools to better meet the needs of
neurodiverse children, and the program that has helped staff screen an estimated 640,000 children to
an estimated 640,000 children to identify those with language development difficulties.
11:19
Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)
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Thanking the Minister for that answer, would she like to further expand on what is actually being done to disseminate knowledge throughout the teaching staff? Once
this assessment has been made. Because, where anybody has got
problems, it's usually a case of working smarter, not harder. So, more help from the mainstream types
counter-productive.
11:19
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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The noble Lord is right that we believe that every teacher is a
teacher of special educational needs and disability, and that where we find good practice it, we need to make sure that is disseminated to
all teachers. Because the best teaching produces the best results for all children, including those with special educational needs and
disability. And of course, from this September, the initial teacher
training scope will also include improved measures and information
For children with special educational needs and disabilities.
educational needs and disabilities.
11:20
Baroness Bull (Crossbench)
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My Lords, dyscalculia is the learning disability most people have never heard of, yet its prevalence is the same as dyslexia and its
impact on education, employment and health outcomes are very similar. This prevalence rate means that one child in every classroom is dyslexic, and yet, the levelling
minister will know that the DfE has no official definition of dyscalculia, nor is there any
guidance at all for parents, carers and educators, on the website. So, can she say when government will address this incredibly low
awareness of this high impact condition, by including reference to it in initial teacher training, so
that young people get the diagnosis, the early identification, the support they need and deserve.
11:21
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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The noble Lady I know has raised
this issue of dyscalculia, not only with me, I think in doing that, but
raising attention more broadly. The
approach taken in initial teacher training is not to specifically
identify particular conditions. Because, as I suggested to the noble
Lord, the best quality teaching for training, for mainstream teachers,
is in the type of teaching and quality of teaching that will enable them to identify needs, and to
enable children to make the best progress.
Where really specific
support is needed, that should be commissioned by the special educational needs coordinator within
the school or externally. And I feel
reasonably confident that SENCO's do understand the issue the honourable lady is raising, but ensuring that information and best practice is available, is clearly an important available, is clearly an important part of the work we are doing.
11:22
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
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My Lords, when there is an early
identification, increasingly, parents have been feeling they have
to withdraw their children from mainstream education and homeschool them. Can the noble Lady, the Minister, confirm we are actually collecting that data of those who
are home educated, because those parents don't think it was an elective home education, and it is important we know how the assessment
is failing, and why those parents have withdrawn their children and our home educating them.
11:23
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Noble Lady is right that it is a failure of the system if parents feel they have to withdraw their
children from school. Not voluntarily, but because they do not
feel that schools are providing for them. Which is why it is so important that this government's plans to develop a more inclusive and expert mainstream education,
alongside specialist schools, where there are particularly complex
needs, and they are needed, is so important. We are of course in the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill, which will be coming to this House reasonably soon, taking
additional measures around both the consent needed and the understanding
of those students who are being
homeschooled, not very particular issue however, I will write to her about the extent of information that we currently collect.
we currently collect.
11:23
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)
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Would my noble friend agree that there is an intermediate position
between removing children from mainstream schooling and leaving them there, which is that some
children with special educational needs should be able to access support alongside their mainstream
schooling? And once a condition has been identified, parents who can will often look to access that in the private sector, because it is
very difficult to get it because of the availability of the right resources. Can she say to what extent she is confident that schools
where there is an identified need for additional special support outside the classroom, there are sufficient specialists available to
deliver that support.
deliver that support.
11:24
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Well, some of the best practice we are seeing in mainstream schools occurs, for example, where they are able to develop in-school support
able to develop in-school support
centres. In particular, specialisms. That is why the government has provided an additional £740 million
worth of capital to improve the ability for specialist centres like
that, and specialist centres in mainstream and in special schools where necessary. So, I think my
noble friend makes an important
point. Last week, my honourable friend, the Secretary of State, also launched a call for evidence on the
best practice in inclusive practice,
which is nevertheless maintaining a specialist support that children need, and I hope that we will find
more examples by looking through the good work already happening, that we can through the reform we are making
can through the reform we are making in the special educational needs and disability system, and ensure to spread rather rightly across the spread rather rightly across the schools.
-- Spread more widely across the schools.
11:25
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (Crossbench)
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Is the noble Lady, the minister, whether the adoption and special
guardian support fund may run out of funds entirely by the end of this month? What actions the government taking to avoid that which would be taking to avoid that which would be extremely damaging situation.
11:26
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Due to the enormously difficult fiscal position we inherited from
the last government, we are having
to..., it was bad! We are having to make some enormously difficult
decisions. We are in the process now
of business planning. As well of course planning for the next Spending Review, and we hope to be in a position to announce the future
of schemes like that, as soon as possible.
11:26
Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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My Lords, the noble Lady the
Minister will be aware that there have been recent reports
highlighting the very variable quality of education health and care plans. Actually identifying the
plans. Actually identifying the
number where interventions are recommended which actually are proven not to work. And in parallel with that, there have been
suggestions that there should be the equivalent of a kind of NICE for
educational needs. I'm aware how
complex this is, and how long it would take for structural reforms which are one of the government
11:27
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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wants to do, is there something they
can press on with and improve the lives of children quickly within the system?, cutting the noble Lady mix a very fair point about us being as
clear as possible about which interventions are most effective for
children, as well as the broader reform that is going to be necessary. That is why, to be fair
necessary. That is why, to be fair to the noble Lady, some of the work that was started under the change program is identifying in relation
program is identifying in relation to EHCPs, where there is good practice, and that is why in the engagement that this government has
started, led by Christine Lenihan as the adviser for special educational
needs and disability, we are looking at what is working effectively, and what we need to change.
But I do
take a point about how we more quickly identify what is high quality, what are high-quality interventions, and how we spread interventions, and how we spread that as quickly as possible across the system.
11:28
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
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My Lords. We are in a situation
where we need to get early assessment for those who need it.
But as the Minister will know, in the recent discussions around
welfare and the number of very young people, particularly, on sickness, how does she think we should deal
with the problems of overdiagnosis?
-- Pathology rising of young people, and the parents keen to get a label when it is not appropriate, it seems when it is not appropriate, it seems to me it is skewing the figures and damaging the system.
11:29
Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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The noble Lady identifies the absolutely crucial role of
identifying early where there are difficulties or particular needs
Children have and that needs to start early, which is why the
government has improved both the training and the advice available to early years practitioners, to be able to identify that. It is why, in
the range of measures I outlined in the initial answer, there is more scope to identify and to start to
take action early, to prevent the early signs of some of those
conditions that then become more
serious for escalating, in a way the noble lady said, and of course, ensuring, in relation to welfare
reform, ensuring we are preparing all children, particularly those with special educational needs and disabilities, for their future
working lives, as I was able to see
a recent village to new College, Worcester, for example, for visually impaired young people, it is also
incredibly important, so young people are able to start their life, able to work and achieve the best outcomes they can throughout their lives.
11:30
Oral questions: Impact of the USA's withdrawal from the World Health Organization on the global treatment of HIV/AIDS
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Third oral question.
11:30
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the
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Order Paper. My Lords, I would like to start
by paying Phoebe to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for the work he has done this agenda over many decades.
done this agenda over many decades. The UK will continue to work with the World Health Organization,
member states and other partners, to support WHO's ongoing transformation and strengthen its efficiency,
transparency and responsiveness. We are proud of our long-standing support for global health
11:30
Lord Fowler (Crossbench)
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organisations at the core of the response to HIV and AIDS and we continue to support efforts to end
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AIDS as a public health threat by I'm grateful, there are bin today to 40 million deaths from AIDS
to 40 million deaths from AIDS across the world. Because of the success of efforts over the last
success of efforts over the last years, official predictions whether AIDS could be eliminated as a public
AIDS could be eliminated as a public health disease, by 2013. As of the noble lady has just said. That was
noble lady has just said. That was before the abrupt and recent changes in policy, by the American administration, which has caused
administration, which has caused havoc across the world.
So could I ask the Minister whether it is really the government's view that
the 2013 target is achievable -- 2030. Whether they share the view of most medical experts, that the
American policies are leading the
world backwards and backwards to defeat in a vital area of public health. health.
11:32
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I do not think it has made it any easier. But we stand by our
commitment to move towards this, to
do this by 2030. There are some things in our favour around medical
advances and new treatments and a willingness of certain governments and out of play apart, perhaps
they've not been able to, in the past. There is no doubt that the situation is now more challenging,
but we will work, as firmly as we have, with as much energy as we ever have, towards this goal, because it
is important that we do.
11:32
Lord Herbert of South Downs (Conservative)
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Tuberculosis is the single
biggest cause of the death of people with HIV, AIDS, killing 1,000,000
1/4 people, a year, in total. The most deadly infectious disease of
most deadly infectious disease of
all. Given the reduction of funding and indeed dismantling of USAID, the
withdrawal of funding from the WHO. Does the Minister share my concern that our ability to conduct ongoing
surveillance of this airborne transmissible disease is at risk and will the Government back row
maintain its programs to ensure that this disease too can be beaten, by 2030?
11:33
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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We are concerned about HIV and AIDS, but also tuberculosis, malaria
and other diseases as well. The theme probably of these exchanges and today is going to be one of heightened concern about our ability to make the progress that we have an
ambition to do. We have a
responsibility to do. There is no doubt that it is an albino made more difficult, but we are looking, he asked about the decisions we are
making, here in the UK. We are not responsible for decisions other
countries may, we are responsible for the decisions we make.
Although those decisions are currently being
made, I find it difficult to envisage a situation where the UK
does not play a leading role in fighting against these diseases.
11:34
Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
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With regard to our approach, this
week now marks the 10th anniversary of the 0.7 legislation, passed in this House, to the week, this week,
10 years ago. I mourn that, because I was naive. I felt subsequent
governments would honour it. We now have at the position where a
government will be spending more to private sector landlords, within the
UK, than the entirety of all of our support for children with malaria, or those born with AIDS. And that in two years time, we will be spending
at the same level of Official Development Assistance as a Viktor
Orban is hungry.
So, I say with all great seriousness, given how far we
are moving away from that legislation and the more incredulous statements that our government say that when fiscal circumstances arise
we will get to it. I say, as the
person who was the member in charge of that legislation, will the Government now do the decent thing and repeal it.
11:35
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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Absolutely not, why will we do that? It is our ambition to regain
.7 spend on developmental spend. Why would we repeal that piece of
legislation. I find it very difficult that we are spending so
much money on housing asylum seekers and migrants, in the UK, out of our
odour budget. I do not think that is what we should be doing -- ODA budget. The previous government
completely lost control of the
borders of this country.
This is the situation we have inherited. The Home Office is working hard to get those numbers down and to reduce that spend, so that that money can
be spent where it is needed most. We did make the decision and it was a difficult decision for this
government to make, to prioritise the spending on defence and I don't
think I need to explain it to noble Lord why we did that. It is a decision that we support. I will be
working incredibly hard, with allies and partners to make sure that the money that we do have is spent
wisely.
Get the best value for money for British taxpayers, but we also get the most impact that we can, for
our partners overseas.
11:36
Viscount Stansgate (Labour)
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Last week, I cohosted on behalf of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, a meeting of HIV stop AIDS in this House. We heard from
people from Africa whose ability to access the drugs have enabled colour
in one case a woman to live to become a grandmother. We heard about
the devastating effect that is been mentioned about the cuts and USAID,
for which we are not responsible.
But I hope my noble friend the
Minister to the extent that Britain can continue to play its part in trying to reach the 2030 target, it will use the resources, scarcer than
they are to enable this work to continue.
Because we cannot allow the world to go backwards. This must be some thing that needs to be tackled now.
11:37
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I accept that and I completely
agree with that. There are some encouraging things around some of their medical devices and the drugs
that can be used now to provide protection against HIV and some of
the devices that can be used where women are in control of their use. Because we are seeing an increase in
prevalence among women and young girls are now, as well. There are things that are happening which can
be encouraged, but it would be incredible really to stand here and trying say that the situation at
that we now find ourselves in isn't far more challenging, then it has been more recently.
11:38
The Earl of Courtown (Conservative)
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Taking into account the withdrawal of the US from the WHO,
can the noble Baroness and the Minister inform the House, how we are working with other international partners that actually fill that
void?
11:38
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I think it is vital that we do
that and we are doing that. I met with the Executive Director of the WHO, earlier this week and that is
something that we spoke about, in
some depth. So he is absolutely right to encourage the Government to take that approach and we will be doing so. doing so.
11:38
Baroness Bull (Crossbench)
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Alongside the withdrawal from the WHO, the Trump administration has
also cut billions of dollars, from US universities and research institutes. What assessment has government made of the impact of the
U.K.'s research partnerships, crucially in relation to this question, the impact on our shared global health challenges.
11:38
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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There is no doubt that research and development are critical to making progress, on this and
making progress, on this and
actually are many other agendas, in development. So we are working through the impact and she suggests
she we should. We cannot fill that void, clearly. We can work smarter and work with universities and research partners. research partners.
11:39
Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)
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Noble Lord the? The noble Lady
the Minister seems to suggest that devices and medication are expanding to stop the problem is people need
to get tested. The impact of the US pulling out is that there are 228,000 lesser tests a day. And supply of things such as condom's
and Pratt have seized certain programs. Can I ask the noble Lady the Minister if she wishes at the UK to take the lead at the dispatch
box. What extra support and resources will be made available, if
this temporary suspension becomes a permanent suspension?
11:40
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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We are working through the impact of the US decision and also looking
at how we reprioritise our own spending, but he is absolutely
right, encouragingly though, in 2023, approximately 86% of people, living with HIV knew their HIV
status. What we do not want to see is that incredible achievement going
in the wrong direction and he is a very right to remind the House that.
11:40
Oral questions: The impact of the potential reduction in pharmacy opening hours
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Lord Bishop of St Albans.
Paper.
11:40
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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This government recognises that pharmacies are an integral part of
our communities. There are processes in place to monitor opening hours and their impact and core hours of
either 40 or 72 hours would not be affected by the proposed action, by
A1 trade body. Options are available to patients to access alternative
pharmacies, or distance selling pharmacies. We will be making an
announcement shortly on a funding settlement for years and 24/25 and 25/26. 25/26.
11:41
The Lord Bishop of St Albans (Bishops)
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I thank the noble Baroness for her response. Would his Majesty's
government publish the independent economic analysis on the pharmacy
funding crisis? Also, last summer we noticed my brother-in-law, he died.
We had to access the medicines often at short notice. It was very difficult, even in a built-up urban
area, many pharmacies around. In rural areas it is far, far more difficult. What assessment has his
Majesty's government aid of any limitation on opening hours to
health outcomes, in rural areas? health outcomes, in rural areas?
11:42
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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On the right reverend Prelate request for information, I will of course discussed that with the Minister see mechanic who has been
Minister see mechanic who has been
working very hard? Steve mechanic, who has been working very hard with the sector, going forward on
funding. In terms of opening hours, as I have said, there are core hours, but there are also additional
supplementary voluntary hours that community pharmacies can choose to
do. And certainly, there are also a whole range of ways that people can access pharmacy services, notwithstanding the point that the personal experience, that the right
reverend Prelate made.
Including
being able to contact distance pharmacies, who can provide things, through online contact, or by
telephone call, or other means. They
are key, pharmacies, to making
health care for to the future, but want to make sure they are completely accessible and we will be working with them to make sure that
they, as largely private businesses.
11:43
Lord Kakkar (Crossbench)
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Draw My Lords attention to my interest as the chairman of King's
health partners. Just to build on the point by the noble Lord prelate, what assessment, has his Majesty's
government made of the impact on
population health outcomes, of the intersection, between a limited access to primary care services? And
diminishing availability of the pharmacy services?
11:43
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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Well, perhaps I could say that
the assessment on pharmacies, if I refer to that, I know the noble Lord
has talked about primary care more
generally, is that actually it is
quite a good coverage, in, I think some 80% of the population live within a mile of a pharmacy. As I
say there are other online and non-, sorry not in person ways of
contacting pharmacies. I should also add that the pharmacy access scheme
does provide financial support to pharmacies, in areas where there are
fewer pharmacies.
And of course local authorities, along with ICBs do continue to monitor changes, look
at provision and have the ability to
intervene, where necessary. So, on all of these counts, in respect of primary care, provided through
pharmacy, which is so important, we are continuing to monitor the impact
across ICBs, with regard to and a particular assessment, I will gladly write with more details to the noble
Lord.
11:44
Lord Kamall (Conservative)
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The Minister is likely to talk about some of the alternatives, particularly when hours are limited. Can I ask the noble Minister about some of the long-term thinking in
the department and the future pharmacy services? We know some chains have installed pharmacies, what thought is being given to more
of these partnerships? Perhaps, also pharmacies as part of the future primary healthcare centres? While
many people may want a pharmacy, those using the NHS Act for example maybe want to order repeat
prescriptions.
To actually have them delivered, pick them up from a
location. Patients are openly, more open to ideas of online consultation. We see more men are
trialling delivery by drones, in mobile areas. There are whole thing
is happening in the pharmacy sector and other parts of the healthcare sector stop what is the department learning from this innovation in
learning from this innovation in
11:45
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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The noble Lord make some constructive points, and the point
about other ways to deliver pharmaceutical services, and I can assure the noble Lord we are
exploring how pharmacy can best be positioned and levered indeed to fit
with our ambition for a neighbourhood health service within the NHS 10 year plan, and we will
hear about that soon. The noble Lord will also be aware one of the
challenges community pharmacies raised with us is about funding, which was cut or held flat between
2015, 2016, and 20, 2016, and 2023- 24, which has some cuts of 20%.
That is why we included the consultation
about funding and we will shortly announce the outcome that will have
a particular effect on, as I have said, these are private businesses, looking at how they can operate in
the market. We are keen to ensure that they play their part. And continue to work very constructively
continue to work very constructively continue to work very constructively
11:47
Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)
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The ongoing delay in this year's financial settlement for pharmacists, which financial year ends in two weeks, has created a cash flow problem and exacerbated
the financial issues which has meant
that eight community pharmacists a week on average are closing. In December, the Chief Executive of
community pharmacy England wrote to ministers acting for a -- Asking for a remedial injection of cash to keep pharmacies open. Can I ask the noble pharmacies open. Can I ask the noble minister why so far ministers have ignored that?
11:47
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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I feel the most constructive
response I can give to the noble Lord is the response of the Secretary of State, who has made it
quite clear in Parliament that
discussions will be concluding shortly and an announcement will be made in the normal way. And that will be via an open letter to
contractors which will be published on the go.uk. And I hope the noble
Lord will understand I cannot say more until our engagement with
community pharmacy England, a representative body, actually comes
to a conclusion.
I cannot, for the benefit of noble Lords, that NHS England did commission and independent economic analysis of the
cost of providing pharmaceutical services, and that has informed the consultation with the sector and consultation with the sector and that will be published in due course.
11:48
Baroness Wheatcroft (Crossbench)
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My Lords, is the noble Lady, the Minister, concerned that GPs
tendencies to sign repeat prescriptions very easily and
readily increases the demand one pharmaceutical services? And that there should be a much more rigorous
review of repeat prescriptions on a
review of repeat prescriptions on a review of repeat prescriptions on a
11:48
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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I appreciate the views of the noble Lady. And indeed, community pharmacies in England are dispensing around £1.1 billion worth of NHS
medicines with a value of over 10 billion each year. With regard to
prescribing, that is of course, a clinical decision. We are
nevertheless, of course, keeping an ion the situation. What matters is
that people seek help and I am very glad to say that pharmacies are
playing an increasing role in the availability of assistance, so people don't always have to go to people don't always have to go to GPs, particularly for some of the more common conditions.
11:49
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)
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My Lords, would my noble friend agree with me that community
pharmacies play a vital role in
addressing NHS waiting lists, through the administration of the vaccination program. Whether it is
influenza, or the COVID-19 vaccine, and thereby contribute to the
reduction in the waiting lists that are faced by many hospitals throughout the UK. And will she
further agree with me that all efforts will be made by government
to ensure the challenges faced by committee pharmacies at present will be resolved in the near future.
be resolved in the near future.
11:50
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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I certainly do agree with the point that my noble friend mix, and I hope that my noble friend has
noticed my enthusiasm for the role pharmacies do play. And I do think
that the introduction of pharmacy first was a tremendous contribution to some commonsense approaches, for
people who have common conditions they can more immediately access
they can more immediately access
services. Many of us will have experience that. As I said, we will conclude matters shortly and look forward to making the decision known
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about future funding ASAP. My Lords, that concludes oral
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My Lords, that concludes oral questions for today. Will have a short stay to allow memos who wish
to leave the chamber to do so now.
11:51
Statement: 80th anniversaries of Victory in Europe and Victory over Japan
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in the House of Commons on Thursday 13th of March, on the 80th anniversary of Victory in Europe and Japan.
11:52
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative)
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My Lords, we on these benches warmly welcome this statement. It is
clear the Second World War continues to cast a long shadow. Names of the
fallen are etched in stone in every parish of this country. The conflict
transformed our society, not just in the family is scarred by the conflict, but by accelerating the
role of women in the workforce or military service, through the
migration of our fellow subjects across the Empire to help rebuild these war-torn islands, just as they had helped to defend them and in the
technological advances which were made in the face of adversity.
In the secrecy of Bletchley Park, this country quietly invented the
computer, helping to break codes and ciphers, shortening the war by some two years. In a desert of New
Mexico, scientists from around the world invented a weapon so terrible
it brought an end to the conflict in the east and forms the linchpin of
our defence today. That pasta is not so distance. Here in your Lordships house since the grandsons of our
wartime Premier and his deputy, the descendants of many others who rendered it distinguished wartime service, and a young boy who came
service, and a young boy who came
here, like thousands of others, as a refugee on the kina transport.
Later today, in grand committee, we
continue to discuss plans for memorials for the victims of the Holocaust, one of the greatest crimes against humanity, this afternoon in this chamber, we
discussed the European Convention on Human Rights, part of the international determination at the atrocities and violations of the 1930s and 40s must never happen
again. But that recent past begins to slip from living memory. The Holocaust Educational Trust is doing
brilliant trust -- Brilliant work, capturing memories of the last survivors, digitising them, so future generations can interact with
them although they were still among us.
Just this week, we lost the
105-year-old group captain, John Hemingway, the last of the few to whom we also much for defending these islands in the Battle of
Britain. The Prince of Wales and the Prime Minister led the tributes from the nation, which remains hobbled by their service. At the commemorations
this summer, there will be fewer and
frailer veterans. Canon noble Baroness, the minister, say what
plans there are to put them at the heart of the proceedings, so we can renew our thanks to them, and hear their stories while we are still
able to? The Minister and I were both born closer to the end of the
Second World War than we are here today, that gap grows ever wider for us all.
But for children born today, even the events of this summer will
not form part of their consciousness. I am pleased to see
mentioned in the statement of the work done by the National Theatre, the Imperial War Museum, the national lottery, the Commonwealth
War Graves commission and many more. Canon noble Lady the Minister say what health -- What else the
government is doing to ensure the lessons of the Second World War are passed on to future generations. It
is sadly clear those lessons are as relevant today as they ever have been.
The scourge of anti-Semitism continues to poison minds in this
country and others. Extremism and intolerance are once more on the
march, only yesterday in Hungary, a member state of the European Union, banned pride marches from taking place in its country. The statement
which follows this one is about the return of conflict to the European continent, and of the siren song of
isolationism. It is clear we need to remind ourselves and our friends of the lessons of the last century. Just a few steps from the Minister's
Just a few steps from the Minister's
office in her department, is the room from which Winston Churchill addressed the crowds on a VE day, 8 May, 1945.
He told a war weary but
jubilant nation " This is your hour,
this is not the victory of a party or any class, it is a victory of the great British nation as a whole." He
asked them, when shall the reputation and faith of this generation of English men and women
fail? This summer, let us make sure that we uphold that reputation, renew that faith, and give thanks to all those who fought for the freedom we cherish today.
11:56
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords, I welcome this statement. And I encourage the
government to make as much as possible of this, as an opportunity
to explain and educate our younger generation on the implications of what we were fighting for, in the
last war. I come like others, have
taken my grandchildren to the Imperial War Museum and was happily
surprised to see pictures of my parents-in-law in uniform, on
display in Bletchley, and I will be taking them to the Western front at Easter time, when we will walk over
the areas where, in 1918, my father, as an 18-year-old in the Highland
division, Fort.
-- Thought. It is ancient history for a gradual but highly relevant to them. I hope the
government will make this very much a commemoration of an Allied effort.
In our commemoration of World War I, I felt that the then government
tried much too much to make this Britain versus Germany. We had
Polish squadrons in the RAF, we had Belgian squadrons in the bomber
command. We had Caribbean is recruited there, who served as
ground crew. We had Polish
divisions.
I have had many conversations with elderly polls who fought in the eighth Army. Who then
came to Britain after the war. We had French divisions on British soil, we had a jet brigade, we had
people who went back to work in the resistance in Norway and Belgium, the Netherlands, and elsewhere. And
we had Polish Ukrainians who came here in large numbers as displaced
persons and refugees after the war, his grandchildren have almost
forgotten about that. And we had two and a half million people in the
Indian army.
We underplayed that in
our commemoration of World War I,
and many of their descendants now live in this country. At our British citizens, as indeed, many of those who volunteered with the RAF and the
Caribbean during the war. But all needs to be explained to a younger
generation, in all its diversity. I hope the Minister has already got her tickets to the Parliament choir concert. And I hope that all other
members of the House, those who will not be singing, will be there on May 7, for an excellent concert, for
which we are already rehearsing.
But my Lords, we also need to educate
our younger generation on the current parallels between where we are now and where we were then. The
Russian attack on Ukraine is partly
motivated by a claim to be able to defend Russian minorities in other countries. That is what the Germans were doing in Czechoslovakia, in
We might even wish to remind the public that steps towards European integration after the war, in which Ernest Bevan and Winston Churchill played a large part, were absolutely
part of having war again in Western Europe.
So, we have a sober
recollection of the dangerous world we live in, the dangerous threats we face, and the values which we and our democratic neighbours must
defend.
11:59
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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My Lords, I think it is really
positive that we can have united
voice on what will be hugely
significant anniversaries. Not least because of, as the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, outlined, this will be
very sadly one of the last
significant anniversaries, where we have veterans who fought for our
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Let's Let's pause Let's pause for Let's pause for a Let's pause for a second.
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the the House the House will the House will now the House will now adjourn the House will now adjourn for
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the House will now adjourn for
12:03
ajourned
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12:05
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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... Mindful ... Mindful of ... Mindful of the ... Mindful of the fact ... Mindful of the fact our
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... Mindful of the fact our veterans are very sadly towards the
end of their life in many cases, victory in Europe, vide, which takes place, as noble Lords will be aware, on Thursday eighth of May later this
on Thursday eighth of May later this year, and as noble Lords will be well aware, marks the Allied victory
well aware, marks the Allied victory in Europe. Millions celebrating the end of the war in street parties, dancing and singing across the
dancing and singing across the country, the war in the Far East did not end until 15 August, 1945, in
victory over Japan, and as the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, outlined, we are all very mindful of the events
are all very mindful of the events
that led to victory over Japan.
In
preparation for today, very much
with the theme of letters to loved ones, and remembering people having conversations and family members,
actually spoke to my mum this morning, she is 85, so she was five
at the end of the war. She was, at the time, in Kirkwall in Albany, and
remember that this inner world
burned down, slightly -- The cinema burnt down, slightly random factor remember, though armed forces, not
just from the UK, but mainly from the United States.
And her fellow five euros went up to the American
five euros went up to the American
soldiers and ask them -- five-year- olds and went up to the American soldiers and ask them for chewing gum. It was the first time she had
had chewing gum, she is still not a fan! 80 years on, very few veterans
remain alive. It is very poignant actually, because many of us first
hand accounts like that, from my mother, are also becoming less
common.
And I think all noble Lords, I am sure join me taking this
opportunity to pay tribute to group Captain John who died earlier this week and he was the last surviving pilot of the Battle of Britain, for
his bravery, selflessness and resilience are one of the darkest times in our history, we are all truly grateful. He will leave a
lasting legacy that continues to inspire generations to come. And our thoughts are with his family at this time as well. The noble Lord, Lord
Wallace mentioned parallels,
Wallace mentioned parallels,
, one that brought people together across the world and our attempts to
win the Second World War.
My recollection is one of many Polish
friends that I had growing up. Including a journalist in this country who was a pilot in the RAF,
who came as a young man to this
country. I think it will be recognised, it will be recognise it was a collective effort. Particularly appropriate today. And
those who fought from across the
Commonwealth will also have their place and we will remember them, as do others, during the celebrations
and commemorations. Five years ago,
the 75th anniversary of VE Day was a proud and poignant occasion,
overshadowed by the COVID-19 pandemic.
As the world face an unprecedented global crisis with
social distancing a lockdown in place, the celebrations became a moment of reflection about the
crisis we placed, as well as gratitude to the Second World War generation, and I think the late Queen spoke with the nation and
really had that moment of unity across the country. This year, while
the focus remains remembrance, we do have the opportunity to come together, gather in our communities
and one of the legacies of those who fought so hard and gave up so much to protect the freedom we cherish
today.
A truly inclusive national engagement program to complete the
series of events for VE and VJ Day, 80, there are many ways everyone across your Lordships house and manners of the public can get
involved. And in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, I have not yet got my tickets for the choir event that you mentioned, but
I will be doing so. The government is introducing a general call to
action for people across the country, called tiptop towns where
the public are encouraged to get their towns and cities ready for VE day, whether this be through putting up bunting, litter picking, or crocheted bonnets for post offices,
everyone is invited to get into the spirit for the commemorations.
We are encouraging street parties up and down the country in May,
mirroring the celebrations in 1945, the government has developed street
party packs to support these and the National Lottery are making their awards funds available to support celebrations across the UK. We are working with brilliant creative
organisations to deliver a wide reaching program of activity. This includes Arts Council England who will be providing funding to arts centres, libraries and museums
across the UK, to celebrate and
reflect on the 80th anniversary is of VE Day and VJ Day, the National Theatre is creating a brand-new short film, the Next Morning which
will focus on the dreams and ambitions of young people, the Imperial War Museum has posted
letters to young ones, for children and our families to look out for
letters from the world war.
They will also learn about the history of the Second World War and share their
own personal stories, as part of the Commonwealth War Graves commission's Forever Immortal, which will have the talks of peace at its heart, the
talk currently in this House. The value of these commemorations lies
in this ability to commend this, so young people today can understand
the impact of the Second World War and have the opportunity to hear the stories of our living world were veterans and other two lived through
the war years first time before it's too late.
The government in partnership with British Legion, the Imperial Museum, the National Theatre, together with the
coalition, is delivering a school
resource, for children here veteran testimonies. We will provide schools with learning resources for each key stage, focus on the end of the
Second World War and what this means
The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, ask about the engagement of veterans, this year will be, as already noted, one of our last opportunities to
thank our veterans and hear first- hand their stories, so it's important we not only thank them for their service would ensure their
legacy lives on to inform future generations.
We are working with the British Legion who have done a callout to veterans committee
mission with us veterans that are able to take part in the commemorations can do so, as much as they would like. This will be
central to all VE and VJ Day celebrations, and young people will have the opportunity to engage with stories and testimonies of the Second World War generation. The
government hopes the program will bring the whole country together in remembrance and celebration. We must issue with the stories of those who
lived through the war who made the ultimate sacrifice lives on.
Not just in books or paper, but in the hearts and minds of future
generations. The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson is right, that when we see
a tolerance and anti-Semitism -- When we see intolerance and anti- Semitism on the right, this is important this year.
12:14
Lord Stirrup (Crossbench)
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Can I first of all... My Lords, I welcome the statement, but one of my
regrets about the commemoration of
the Centenary of the First World War as a lack of focus on the immediate post-war period and the political and Informatics failures that set
the conditions for the later, even more damaging conflict. This is in direct contrast to what happened in 1945, when it was recognised that in
enduring peace is not a natural or spontaneous phenomenal, but requires
sustained international commitment cooperation and effort, that message is surely as relevant today as it
has ever been, so can the noble Lady, the minister, reflect on how that particular they might be woven
into this years commemorations, particularly in regards to
education.
education.
12:15
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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The noble Lord makes a really important point. And the first part
of that discussion will be the point
that was raised, particularly around the only by learning about our past
and actually seeing how it is related to our present, do we actually genuinely pay tribute to those who died and those who paid
the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom. So, I think the schoolwork
freedom. So, I think the schoolwork
freedom. So, I think the schoolwork
All of a sudden mindful of the very fragile place we find the world and,
even more so than it was a year ago.
I think that that's a very present understanding of how we need to work together, across national borders in order to secure peace and that recognition that we cannot take for
granted, has to run through our commemoration of these events.
12:16
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Labour)
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Can I congratulate my noble friend, the Minister. Not just for
her excellent statement, but also her composure during the disruption.
Like me, the noble Lady has connections all around the UK, and she knows that during the war men
and women in the Army, Navy and Air
Force, from all parts of the UK protected this country and therefore
it is very important, all of the
celebrations take place in every part of the UK. She has elaborated on some of them, so far, but I wonder if she could extend that and
tell us what more is being done, particularly with cooperation with the devolved Administrations, in
Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.
Scotland.
12:17
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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Discussions are taking part with the military around the country and with devolved governments and with local government, as well. So close official engagements mean taking
place and they are fully aware of
our plans for VE and VJ Day. I know
that in Wales, VA Day will be taking place on 8 May and Scotland will
take place on 6 May. I think that
one of the projects that I am most enthusiastic about is the one that will take place, I think it is important that this isn't just going
to be in London it is going to be in communities and the Imperial War Museum, North is going to play a central part in this and on 7 May,
in the Imperial War Museum, North,
some letters, submitted by the public will become part of the public performance, co-produced by
the National Theatre.
If there's one thing a noble Lord takeaway from this. If you know people have letters or remarkable stories that
their families would want to share, they have a chance for their story
to be included, if they share letters through the government's website, before 14 April.
website, before 14 April.
12:18
Lord Howell of Guildford (Conservative)
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I know we may be a little bit uneasy about the current American leadership, but the American nation is quite a different thing. They of
course played a vast part in the victory, as indeed did the Russians. Would it be wise to put that in, in this statement? No mention of
America at all. Isn't it important for the younger generation, that
when the great powers behave, certainly the rest of the nation, rather than their own internal
interest, we would make far greater progress in the future.
12:18
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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We are clearly talking to all our
allied partners in this respect. And
while this, perhaps wasn't mentioned specifically in Stephanie Peacock's report, to note that I did
specifically mention American forces, in mind. I think it would be
remarkable if they weren't also part
of the commemorations. To be clear
of the commemorations. To be clear and his commemorations and government departments are working to make sure that happens. to make sure that happens.
12:19
The Lord Bishop of St Albans (Bishops)
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I wonder if the noble Baroness of the Minister would say a little bit more about VJ day, outside St Albans
Cathedral is the peace obelisk, given by the people of Japan, because of the courageous witness of
the then Dean, Dean thickness, each year on 6 August, we have an Aqra
medical actors of witness and
prayers there. What is being done specifically to educate people about the dreadful carnage caused by
atomic bombs and how we can build today, a world that doesn't need to
use those come in the future.
use those come in the future.
12:20
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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The country, our country, contributes to nuclear, nonproliferation sister I think the
type of commemoration, the right reverend Prelate mentioned, in terms
of the reflection and around ecumenical reflection is clearly
appropriate, for what was clearly a devastating way, in which we reached the point of VJ Day. We are going to
make sure that both VE and VJ anniversaries are appropriately
commemorated. Their specific events,
in relation to VJ Day will be a service of the National Memorial, Arboretum, specifically, for this
commemoration.
Further details, while you are VJ day will be shared
when the excess. when the excess.
12:21
Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Conservative)
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The popular memory, thinking of the VE Day is one of parties and celebrations. And the veterans will
be, as you say, one of the few, this
will be last opportunity we have to thank them, there were many that did not grow up, as those that have
not grow up, as those that have
left, or left to grow old. I think, particularly given the parallels at the moment, it is very important we
ensure, during these VE celebrations that we do not forget the costs and sacrifice that was made.
I ask of the nobility the Minister, how we
are going to ensure that. For my family, when I asked my family, his memories of VE Day, he said, we do
not really celebrate it, because he's a 19-year-old brother had been killed on 26 April 1945 and the
family had just received the telegram, which was the second, because his elder brother was killed
in the Arctic convoys in 1944. Can we ensure that our younger generation, may be asked to make an ultimate sacrifice one day, understand the ultimate sacrifices
that were made by those people.
that were made by those people.
12:22
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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That noble Lady makes a really,
really important points and I am
clear that when we talk about people making the ultimate sacrifice, we do need to make sure that children and young understand what that means. I
sincerely hope we never get to the stage where our young people currently have to make the same
sacrifice, but I'm also clear, talking to a number of people about
their own families memories of this time, that it wasn't unadulterated
joy, that among the relief that the war was over, was a significant sorrow as well.
12:23
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Crossbench)
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Will the noble Lady agree with me
that it was ideology then, fascism and it is ideology now poses the
danger to us. And imperialism in
both Russia and China. And while we rightly cover all the angles at the
noble Lords of mention today and I very much welcome the statement I
hope that they will also give consideration to educating the public, not just younger people, but the overall public of the threat
that events in Indochina are going
to face as well as a warning of what is to come, through China's
ambitions, in its neighbourhood.
12:23
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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So, we are clear, as a government, that we want to tackle
ideologies that undermine our democracy and freedom that, wherever
they are. I personally believe that
the public is really aware of the fragility of our world order, at the
moment. And I would find it very odd, if that didn't come through, in a lot of the commemoration of these events.
12:24
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)
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Many of the people who fought on,
after VE day, they used the phrase
of the forgotten army. Can we make sure we emphasise the sacrifice and
the real hardship that many of the prisoners of war experience, from Japan? If I might just gently say to
the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of St Albans, the brutal
truth is, that had the Americans not been involved and had the Americans
are not used there you nuclear weapons, hundreds of thousands of people would have died, needlessly.
It was a horrible thing to do, but that played an important part in giving us the freedom, which of
those people who interrupted our proceedings today enjoy. proceedings today enjoy.
12:25
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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We value our relationship with the Americans, both now and in the
relationship we had and the noble Lord makes a really powerful point.
We are very clear that it is absolutely vital that we don't
simply focus on VE Day, that we do
look at VJ Day, as well. It is going to be a different tone, I think to the commemorations around VE day,
with the sort of more community
And so forth. We are very clear that the sacrifices made by those serving across Asia and the Pacific will be very much at the heart of the commemorations.
12:26
Lord Cryer (Labour)
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I welcome everything that the
noble Minister said, today. However, it has been mentioned by a few noble
Lords that the events of World War
II and the Holocaust are going from memory, into history. That being the case, it strikes me that that gives impetus to those revisionist
historians and Holocaust deniers to peddle their poisoning chip away the integrity. Doesn't that mean to say
that these celebrations have to be more striking, than previous years, in order that the memory collectively imprints on the younger
generation.
So
12:26
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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I would like to reassure my noble friend that we are absolutely
determined that that happens. He
noted the rise of anti-Semitism, a deplorable form of hate crime, which this government is committed to
tackling. Everyone is able to worship freely, protest freely,
where religious clothing and go about their lives in safety and security, irrespective of the
security, irrespective of the The noble Lord, Lord Wallace spoke very well...
12:27
Lord Hussain (Liberal Democrat)
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If we conduct business
appropriately, we have the time still for members to come in. We haven't heard from the Liberal
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Democrats. I hope the Minister will agree with me, the role of British
with me, the role of British economies and the British Empire needs to be recognised and our
needs to be recognised and our younger generations need to be reminded of the role of the British colony. Particularly, from the
Indian subcontinent. I speak as somebody whose own a family member went to serve in the British Army
went to serve in the British Army and left my father, my father's younger brother, left my father at
younger brother, left my father at the age of 15 to look after the family and actually never came back.
Those are the kinds of examples that we have, among ourselves, those people who have settled in Britain
and our generation needs, our new generation needs to be reminded of that.
12:28
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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The noble Lord makes a really well
made points. All our activities and events will focus on both the UK and Commonwealth experiences, at the end of the war, ensuring these
commemorations resonate across the whole of the Commonwealth. Engaging with the Commonwealth Secretariat to ensure Commonwealth experiences are represented. We are actively
engaging with those throughout the Commonwealth, collaborating closely
with the Commonwealth War Graves commission on a tour to honour and share the stories of those who fought in the Second World War.
Colleagues in the FCDO and MoD are working closely with us, on this
plan. I think this will also be an
important aspect of how this is addressed, in schools, with young people, so that all our pupils and all young people recognise their own
shared history, wherever there
families were, at the time of the war. war.
12:29
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (Crossbench)
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The need to involved allies, I
would like to say a word about involving further enemies as well.
My uncle was shellshocked, my father
was one of the first army. -- the
first army doctors into Belsen.
Commemoration should also double with reconciliation. I think it is
really important that on the EJ, the Germans are fully involved and on VJ
Day, the Japanese. Day, the Japanese.
12:30
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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We try to involve all nations.
One of the clearest indications of
how we work with those countries, who were previously our enemies is
shown from the stead fast ally ship, particularly Germany in relation to
12:30
Lord Balfe (Conservative)
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My Lords, can I also remind the
noble minister, that people from other countries came to help in
Britain. My father came from Ireland
to serve and help to defeat Hitler. There were many people of course from Poland, from all over the
place. Including the huge contribution of the Indian army, the
African armies. Not to mention Canada, which joined us from the start. Whereas, not wishing to be
sour about it, it is worth remembering that the United States
did not declare war on Germany, Germany declared war on the United
states, Roosevelt only declared war
on Japan.
on Japan.
12:31
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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I think it is really important that we have these commemorations, not the drug over the old issues and
not the drug over the old issues and
old MATs, but to move forward. I have in previous answers completing
recognise the role of Commonwealth soldiers and across the military,
and also those from across other
12:32
Lord Berkeley (Labour)
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nations and will make sure that all nations are involved appropriately.
nations are involved appropriately.
nations are involved appropriately. Of the last two world wars was the role of the railways in supply and logistics to the front. We spent a lot of time bumming them when we
lot of time bumming them when we were attacking them, but of course the Germans tried to bomb us as well. My father was one of the Royal
well. My father was one of the Royal Engineers and spent a lot of time repairing railways in France and Belgium.
There is only one book produced about that, but my main point in speaking today was this
still the case in Ukraine today. And
I want to commend Network Rail, and my noble friend, Lord Hendy, who was
my noble friend, Lord Hendy, who was
in his place, for giving so many spare parts and other helpful Ukraine, to keep the railways their working, because it is just as important then, now, as it was in important then, now, as it was in the war.
12:33
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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I would like to thank my noble
friend for that point. I wholeheartedly agree. I mentioned my
family previously, my great Uncle was also in the Royal Engineers and
would have been carrying out similar roles during the war. So, I look out for that book with interest. for that book with interest.
12:33
Lord Craig of Radley (Crossbench)
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My Lords, there is one of the
properly quite a few members of today's house who was a teenager during the Second World War, Abbott
like to add my commendation to group Captain Hemingway because he was
born in Dublin, as was I. And there are very many Irishmen who served in the Second World War, with great distinction and they should not be forgotten.
12:33
Baroness Twycross (Labour)
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I would like to thank the noble
and gallant Lord for that point. And
I think, I hope from the short
debate we have had today, noble Lords have understood how much we
want to involve and recognise the role of all nations, including not
least our Irish neighbours. I think
that we will have an opportunity in your Lordships house to debate this,
I am not sure if the date of the debate has been put in the diary,
but there is plans for us to have a debate in the context of VE Day and I look forward to having a discussion with noble Lords again then.
12:34
Statement: Update on the G7
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Questions on a statement made in
the House of Commons on Monday, 17 March, on the G7.
12:34
Lord Callanan (Conservative)
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My Lords, the turbulence of the
global situation we face I think was reflected in the breadth of the
subjects covered in the joint statement of the G7 foreign ministers meeting. Ukraine, Gaza,
China, Sudan, the DRC, Latin America and Iran were all covered. We are
faced with a world with growing uncertainty, and instability, and we
welcome the work shown at the G7 to face these global challenges together. The importance of cooperation and alliance with those
countries, who share our values in facing these threats is, in my view,
crucial.
Over the weekend and in the
other place this week, we have heard the proposed peacekeeping initiative for Ukraine is now moving into an operational phase, which we welcome.
The Foreign Secretary did not expand on what this means in practical terms or what our European and
Atlantic allies have committed to in terms of supporting it. So, I wonder
if they know if they could provide a house -- Provide a house with an
answer to these issues. There is overwhelming support, I am delighted to say, for our Ukrainian allies, and we on these benches continue to
support Ukraine in its fight to defend its freedom, democracy and rule of law.
The government has taken admirable steps to coordinate
our allies, which we welcome. Although, I think the House could welcome an update on what that means
for us and the country in practice. Therefore, let me ask the noble Lady what are the effects of this initiative are on our Armed Forces,
what planning is currently under way
as part of this operational shift? Which allies in the so-called coalition of the willing have expressed interest in this initiative? And what are they
willing to offer? What discussions have the government held with the United States to advance clarity on
this plan? Facing Putin ensuring the
security and sovereignty of Ukraine can only be achieved alongside our allies, and the House would welcome
allies, and the House would welcome
the government to tell us how we can shift this.
The joint statement also
may clearly growing in very serious concerns among allies, about China's
activities, aimed at undermining the security and safety of our communities, and the integrity of
our democratic institutions. This comes alongside many other concerns
raised at the G7, including China's nonmarket policies, their practices
that are leading to harmful overcapacity, and market distortions. China's military buildup, the continued rapid increase of China's nuclear-weapons
are -- Arsenal, the restrictions to freedom of navigation and overflight
to militarisation and coercion of other countries, bordering the South China Sea, in clear violation of
international law.
Given his clear blatant risks to our domestic security, and the threat China clearly poses to the rule of
international law, will the government now take steps to place China on the enhanced Tia's list Reddit Tia list of our registration scheme. This would further threaten
the resilience of the UK medical system, against that covert influence and would provide greater
assurance around the activities of China that had deemed a national security risk. Proceeding from the
concerns expressed in the G7, the country now needs to see further concrete responses from the
government, to address the threat
posed by China.
Let me close by asking the noble Lady, what other measures are being considered by the government to compel China to engage
in strategic risk reduction discussions? And what steps the government is taking to deter China's nonmarket policies and
practices.
12:38
Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords, the seriousness of the issues of interest to the G7 are
such that from the welcome statement that the House of Commons received on Monday, events have changed
between then and when we repeat it in this chamber. With regards to the
likely slow movement of President Putin and his talks with President Trump over the ceasefire for
Ukraine. The increased concern with
regards to the red Sea, and the strikes from the United States and
the repercussions of that.
And I should remind the House that on Sunday, President Trump's National
Security Act advisor called the previous attacks, of which very brave RAF personnel took part in, as
feckless. With the war restarting in Gaza, with more humanitarian concern
and more violence in the West Bank,
just in the three days since that
statement. And now we are very close to there being the second round of tariffs from the principal economy
with the G7. As part of what the Wall Street Journal, not a liberal
newspaper in America, has described
as the dumbest trade war in history.
Regardless of the dumbness of it, there will be effects across the whole G7, including the UK, so from
these benches, we reiterate our desire forever closer relations with
the European Union and Canada in particular, so there is a coordinated response. It is regrettable that they should need to
be that within the G7 and this is
the world in which we now have to address. In regards the statement itself, I reckon the Foreign
Secretary stating in the statement, -- I welcome. That we discussed
using frozen Russian assets, numbers
of these benches have asked for accelerated work for the seizure of these assets and I wonder if the Minister could update us on that.
And what the prospect is, when the Prime Minister is of the G7, heads
of government meetings, we will have announcements. At the very least, we do think there is no justified case for there to be draft UK legislation
released. So we would understand what we would be required to do to
move fast on that full power would be grateful if the Minister could outline where we are, in regards to
the seizing of assets. The Minister knows that we have supported the increase in defence expenditure
increase in defence expenditure
across the UK.
As the Foreign Secretary had announced in the
statement, or referred to in the statement. Could there be a bit more
clarity as to what proportion the increased defence expenditures are likely to be spent within the UK? And what is likely to be spent
within the US. And what is the government's position in regard to
the reports we have seen on the
difficulty of the UK taken a full role within the common defence procurement approach, within the European Union? Are we seeking to
move very quickly on a defence security treaty, which should
facilitate? There are a number of members in this House that have called for less under the last
government and continue to call for it.
I think this is now urgent and I hope the Minister might be able to
update us on that. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me say that we do disagree with them. The method
of the increased funds. We do believe that those companies that are avoiding paying tax in the UK,
tech companies, who are operating on underpaid taxes for their profits,
they should contribute more and that
is under the 3.1 mechanism, there is an agreement within the EU and, as I
understand it, the G7.
Only one tree has argued against that and pulled out of that and that is the United
States. A second has delayed our implementation because of that first
country. We do not believe that as appropriate. And we should move
quickly on using the resource from
an increase from 2% to 10% on under taxed profits. That is a better way
of funding increased defence expenditure. Not quitting the ODA
budget. Earlier in the House, the minister reiterated what the government's position was, which is
an ambition to honour the 0.7
legislation.
I will remind the House, the legislation does not require the government to have an ambition to meet 0.7. It requires
ambition to meet 0.7. It requires
the government to meet it. It is not a wee would like to do act, it is we
must do act. And if the government is not committed to this, it should state it clearly in regards to the
means by which it would meet the legislated target. Can I ask the
Minister, in regards that fiscal circumstances, of meeting the
legislative requirement, it seems the policy choice of the government
is to have cut ODA to cut expense -- Defence expenditure, it is a fiscal
choice, what status, what are the fiscal rules now when it comes to
the policy choice of funding an alternative way? Because there is no
mechanism under law, under the 0.7 legislation, for alternative policy
choices to be used, other than fiscal circumstances.
So, what is the status? And finally, I reflected
on the fact that 10 years ago, when we did pass this legislation, I was
wondering what the statement on the
government was in the 2015 G7, granted it wasn't the Foreign Secretary's but it was the Prime Minister. It was in 2015. The Prime
Minister said this to the House of
Commons. For the first time in a number of G7s G8s we actually got the 0.7 commitment back in the text, so it is clear and therefore all to
see.
I would argue it is not just right for Britain from a moral standpoint, it actually increases
our standing in the world that we can point out that we have kept our promises and we are able to use that
money to enhance not only the economic standing of those countries, but our security as well. I agree with the Prime Minister
12:46
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I thank both noble Lords for their contributions. Lord Callanan I
think made a really important point, in his opening remarks about cooperation and unity being vital,
when we face so many challenging situations, around the world. I
thank you for saying that and I agree with him, wholeheartedly. The UK, he asked about the Prime
Minister's comments on the support of security guarantees of Ukraine. That does include boots on the ground, should that be needed. It is
very early in this to be able to say anything very detailed, in response to his question.
I understand why he
would want more information on this, if I had it I would share with him.
We are at an early stage and I do not have anything to share on that, today. We are working, as you said we should and he is right to, we are
working closely with the US and other allies and we, on Saturday, as a noble Lords will know, the Prime
Minister hosted a leaders call to discuss next steps in developing the coalition of the willing that he
referred to.
Leaders agreed that we will accelerate our military support, tighten our sanctions on Russian's revenues. Continue to
explore all routes to ensure that Russia pays for the damage that it
has done to Ukraine. Military planners will meet in London, this week, to progress and practical plans. The Foreign Secretary met G7
counterparts, last week and a G7 of foreign Ministers endorsed the US Ukraine ceasefire agreement and
discussed further blocks on Russia if a ceasefire is not agreed. The Defence Secretary met last
Wednesday, making it a step up in support for peace, working towards
the establishment of security
guarantees.
On China, there are noble Lords and no our approach, which is to cooperate and to compete
and challenge, where we need to. That is done through dialogue, with
our Chinese counterparts. Lord Purvis suggested that we work
closely with Canada and our EU partners, when we face challenge now
on a certain trade issues and he is absolutely right to do that. He asked me to date on the issue of
What I can say is we are working as
hard as we can on this, we have doubled our efforts, we will keep going.
It is vital as I said that Russia pays for what it has done, in
Ukraine. I think just agree to differ on this issue about official funding assistance. I think it was
the right decision, we need to get the money into the defence budget quickly. I think there is actually a
development payoff are doing that, because it enhances our ability to
provide security and that does actually support many developing nations and they have said as much.
I think on this issue of 0.7.
I would strongly urge noble Lords not
to fetch a size a piece of legislation that hasn't actually had the effect that those who proposed it wanted -- fetishised. Our desire
to reach 0.7 isn't actually to do with legislation, it is about a desire to have an impact for developing and nations, because it
is at the right thing to do. That is what is going to drive us to meet that, when the economic situation
allows us to. It is a policy choice, I'm not pretending it isn't a policy
choice, of course it is.
It's been decided to put more money into
defence. But we do not sit here in a crouched position, wondering how on earth are going to fulfil our obligations to the global South,
over the next few years. We are active, we are going to be prioritising certain countries and certain streams of work. We will be
engaging closely with our partner countries and a sector. We will be working on multilaterally, we will be more active, because we have to
be more active, because we have to
It is not just about the money, it is about investment, it is about our approach, it is about working together, it is about the technical assistance we can provide.
I would
encourage noble Lords not to just think about our responsibility to
the global South, in terms of ODA. It is far bigger than that, there isn't a limit on our ambition, because we have had to make these
because we have had to make these difficult financial decisions. They were the right decisions, but we are going to have a more active and energised approach, then we have ever had, in the next three years, ever had, in the next three years, because that is what is needed.
That is actually what this government wants to do.
12:51
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Labour)
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I draw the attention of the House
to my interest in the register, common with many members of the Lordship's House been an ambassador for a trust. Most of the statement
delivered in the other place was about our unwavering support for Ukraine's people and territorial
integrity. Ukraine, where we are now, considering, along with the Allies boots on the ground is the
most heavily mined country, in the
world. With over 3% contaminated or at risk of contamination by
landmines and unexploded ordinance.
The reviewed confidence of the
treaty in December, I spoke to 2 of the largest organisations in the
world, Mines Advisory Group. Responsible for almost 70% of all
mine clearance, they have reaffirmed their commitment to continue the U.K.'s mine action commitments. To
ensure the FCDO is mine action
program is protected, as our budget is reduced. It costs only £12
million per year and raises are twice that, from other sources, including a fella P. It is a cheap, it is generally world leading and it
is indispensable.
is indispensable.
12:52
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I hear what my noble Lord says, he is right. He urges me to commit
to protecting that program and I
will take his very wise counsel seriously. I would also, I get a lot
of people coming to tell me what has been protected and nobody has told
12:53
Lord Hussain (Liberal Democrat)
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me that this program is not very good. I think the case that he makes
good. I think the case that he makes is incredibly strong and I will keep that in mind. The statement mentions
that in mind. The statement mentions Sudan, very briefly. That's a
country that I happened to have visited, on a couple of occasions,
visited, on a couple of occasions, albeit a few years ago. I had two
albeit a few years ago. I had two very brief questions.
The Minister has said funding for Sudan it will be prioritised, but can we have any
assurances that all the development support, for the broad civilian front will be protected. The second
question is, with the Minister agree with me that for peace, prosperity
and security, of the African region and more importantly, for the people
of Sudan, the best option will be to keep Sudan as one sovereign country.
If so, what is the government's
efforts, to achieve that? efforts, to achieve that?
12:53
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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He is right that we have committed to protecting our support for Sudan, because it is such a horrific situation, that so many thousands of people find themselves
in, in that region. We are about to
hold a conference, here in London because of international partners to come and talk. We think, I wouldn't
say I'm, what shall I say? I think
the prospect of having a resolution, imminently is limited, however the right way to approach this is to use
our power and to encourage dialogue, in the hope that that can, in time, unlock this situation.
Because it is
desperate. Have a great deal of humanitarian assistance that we are
undertaking, which is right. Ultimately, what we need to see is peace in Sudan.
12:54
Lord Howell of Guildford (Conservative)
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The Minister struck a global approach when she was asked, which
is quite right. Which she remind all
those around her that it is not just Commonwealth countries, Japan this time, he was on our side, they are
anxious to make a contribution. It is not just a European issue.
Second, very quick point, we picked up on a lot of interest in the
discussion of energy vulnerability. For a moment they are not going to hit energy and power stations.
It
does remind us that this is a world situation in which the civilian,
non-frontline utilities can be reached, by rockets in a way that
was a never before, an earlier combat. This danger is defended and
the cost of that defence is part of our defence expenditure. It is not
just MoD, we are going to have to spend money, defence money on
defending our rights and utilities in the civilian populations. This is a war against civilians. a war against civilians.
12:56
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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The noble Lords right, to mention
Japan. They are incredibly close and an ally of the UK. I take his point
on that, completely right. A tax on
energy and other civilian infrastructure are abhorrent and we
work closely with our allies and partners to try and make sure that
we do, what we need to do, to protect them. When necessary we are fully engaged in reconstruction, when that will need to be happening.
12:56
Lord Katz (Labour)
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I thank my noble friend the Minister for the statement and high
note particularly strong and I think United across this House, her words
about standing by Ukraine. In that matter, I particularly noted her
comments about the discussion around Russia paying for the damage it has
wrecked, across Ukraine. Of course knowledge is not just cost in
pounds, alone. -- Damage. She agreed that the working of that name, tens of thousands of Ukrainian children, taken from their parents and
scattered across country, in some cases are brainwashed against their
mother country.
There can be no peace while those children remain in Russia. The share my concern and very recent reports that Yale University humanitarian plan has
been defunded by Elon Musk doge, in the midst of trying to track many of those abducted children. I would if
she can tell the House whether the G7 discussed the fate of those poor
abducted children and how their safe return really spearheads return really spearheads nonnegotiable in any peace deal?
12:57
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I thank Lord Katz for that, there are many things that keep me awake
at night, the fate of those children is one that frequently comes to
mind. We do discuss those children and the necessity for their safe and
immediate return, to their families.
It is unimaginable what has happened and I think he is completely right and I can assure him that we do take
every opportunity to discuss that. every opportunity to discuss that.
12:58
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Labour)
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May I come in on that, please? In that I co-chair the task force for the returning of the children taken
to Russia and the evidence, relating to that, is really shocking and
quite scandalous. It is interesting that no one from the government has ever asked for me to come and speak
to them about the evidence. I would like to draw that to the attention
of the Frontbench and perhaps find its way down to the other end of this House. No one, I suspect in this House.
No one, I suspect in this House knows more about it than I do and I've never been asked.
12:58
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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Well, consider, I would like the noble lady to consider herself
invited. I would be very keen to hear what she has to say and to consider the evidence that she has
and to discuss ways that she may be able to assist in efforts to have those children returned. those children returned.
12:59
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
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I draw attention to the entry in the register of interests, an organisation working for conflict resolution, particularly chairing at
the ICO advisory panel, in this regard. They also say very closely to the comments on the noble Lord
Katz, we are all at one on this and
we must look at alternative sources. My question is on that one glimmer of hope within the statement. We welcome as the previous government did and I commend the government
could renewing to draw attention to the resolution of the dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
That is a positive statement. In the same
way it was at the many discussion on the territorial gains at the Russia
has made in Crimea, on a subset year, and others and of course, in
the Donbas. What would be the resolution there, because at the moment, the way discussions are going, it seems that they are going
going, it seems that they are going to keep lands that they've occupied?
13:00
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I do not have anything to say specifically on the content of those
negotiations. I think it would be to strange to discuss things like that, were I aware, which I'm not. While
those negotiations are ongoing, but what does matter is that whatever agreement is finally reached, is one
that the people of Ukraine are
13:00
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
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It needs to be a just peace with agreement at the centre of it.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The statement is right to look at
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The statement is right to look at the block of aid as being appalling and unacceptable. Since the statement was made, we have seen
statement was made, we have seen that there are now since the regime
that there are now since the regime attacks on Gaza 400 dead including many children and of course great concern for the remaining Israeli
concern for the remaining Israeli hostages in this situation. Sir Keir
Starmer said that he was deeply concerned about the Military Action.
In the other place he refused to rule out the suspension of further
arms sales. Surely we are now at the point where we have to suspend all
arms sales to Israel?
13:01
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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We have been very clear that we think that Israel ought to allow aid into Gaza and that it is wrong to
disrupt that flow and wrong to cut off electricity supplies, and what matters is we can protect that population and feed those children,
and get medical supplies where they
are needed. On the issue of arms and restrictions, as the noble Lord will
know, we take an approach which is based on the law and we apply the law. We have made decisions and imposed restrictions last year.
We
will do so should we need to in future. But the situation as it is today is as it was yesterday. We have made no decisions on that. have made no decisions on that.
13:02
Lord Soames of Fletching (Conservative)
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May I ask the noble lady, in the
work following the conclusions and
the ongoing work on the G7, if she will have a further word with the Ministry of Defence about the extreme in advisability of dispatching a carrier group to the
far east at this time. Taking with
it a very large amount of a very depleted aircraft and ships from the Royal Navy currently available for
operations. The place of the
operations. The place of the carriers now is in the North Atlantic with its escort and it should not go to the Far East.
13:02
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I have a very good relationship with my colleagues at the Ministry of defence and I am happy to discuss
any issue with them. But I think operational decisions such as this would probably not fall within my
remit. I'm sure they will note what
he has said. They are free to make he has said. They are free to make the choices they have done and they have more information on which to base their choices than we do here today.
13:03
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (Crossbench)
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Would the noble lady the Minister
tell the House whether the Secretary
of State of the United States either raised the issue of the G7 becoming
the G8 with the addition of Russia, or becoming the G6 with the subtraction of Canada? If her answer
to that question is no, or do not
know, can we stop being distracted from the really important matters
the G7 has to address in the months ahead?
13:04
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I am not aware of any such discussions. I think the G7 has been
faces.
13:04
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (Crossbench)
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It has been said the G7 is united behind an inclusive political
transition in Syria. I am not quite sure how we can help to bring that
about until we again have an embassy in Syria. I apologise for coming
around on this but the last time we spoke about this, the Minister seems
to be showing a bit of leg. There
was a hint of movement there. Any chance of that leg actually moving into action?
13:04
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I don't need to explain to the noble Lord just how it is not
straightforward to reopen the embassy in Damascus after a great period of time. But I do take on
board his desire to see that happen. I understand why he says that. There are very good reasons to take that
view. I will consider that alongside
Minister Faulkner, who I am sure will respect as he should the views
will respect as he should the views of the noble Lord.
of the noble Lord.
13:05
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
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My Lords, the statement refers to the G7 condemning the Rwanda backed
offensive in the eastern DRC. As a
breach of territorial integrity. At around about the same time or
shortly after the statement was made, the EU sanctioned nine additional individuals and one entity in association with the
Rwanda backing of the M 23. I know if I ask about sanctions I will get
an answer which is we don't talk about what we will do in the future but what I would seek is a reassurance government is
maintaining a focus on this crucial
issue of the highest humanitarian damage and disaster, particularly in terms of violence against women and
girls but also more generally? Could the noble lady the Minister assured me the government is keeping a focus
here? here?
13:06
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I thank for raising that and for mentioning women and girls. She is right to do so. On sanctions we do not talk about designations ahead of
time. But it is important stop it is too easy I think sometimes to forget
about DRC and Sudan. When we have Ukraine and Gaza so prominent in our
minds. I am grateful to her for
raising VAT.
13:06
Debate: 75th anniversary of the European Convention on Human Rights
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Motion for debate. The 75th anniversary of the European
Convention on Human Rights. Lord Alton of Liverpool. Alton of Liverpool.
13:06
Lord Alton of Liverpool (Crossbench)
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As we mark the anniversary of the European Convention on Human Rights, I must begin by thanking my noble
friends on the cross benches for selecting the motion and by
expressing my gratitude to the many distinguished members of your Lordships' House from all parts of the House who have been
participating in this debate. My
thanks also to the library and many organisations, the Law Society, the International Bar Association, who
have sent material. My Lords, the
Danish philosopher and theologian said "life can only be understood
backwards ".
But it must be lived
forwards. Following this advice, I begin by looking back and recalling the genesis and achievements of the convention and then say something
about the future. In 2013, I opened another crossbench debate marking the 65th anniversary of the
Universal Declaration of Human
Rights. Recalling that it grew out of the egregious disregard and contempt for human rights which had resulted in barbarous acts and which
had outraged the consciences of mankind. Eleanor Roosevelt was a key figure in crafting the 1948 universal declaration and described
it as a Magna Carta for all people.
The Universal Declaration helped
inspire the European Convention, both our foundation stones, intended
to be for all people and not available for selective enforcement according to culture, tradition or
convenience. They should be seen as
much as a declaration of human dignity as a declaration of human rights. In the aftermath of the two
world was, which both began in Europe and claimed the lives of some
77 million people, and where war rages today, a formidable array of political leaders showed
extraordinary zeal and exemplary commitment in creating architecture to uphold the rule of law, intrinsic
to which were international covenants, many focused on human
rights.
In 1946, those barbarous acts which had outraged the
conscience of the world, prompted
Winston Churchill to set out the case for a new international order based on the rule of law and human rights. Outraged consciences led to
practical action. Lawyers including
those with families murdered in the Holocaust bequeathed the Genocide
Convention while there was the development of the legal concept of crimes against humanity. At
Nuremberg Laws a speech was draft of the British prosecutor, Shawcross,
the Labour member of Parliament for Saint Helens and later a baron, who in turn collaborated with Sir David Maxwell Fyfe, the Conservative member of Parliament for West Derby
and later the first Earl of and in
the prosecution of Nazi world war crimes he played a significant role
in drafting the European Convention on Human Rights.
The agenda had been set in Missouri by Winston Churchill
in March 1946, where flanked by
President Truman, he famously remarked that an Iron Curtain had descended across Europe. He insisted
that we must never cease to proclaim in fearless tones the great
principles of freedom and the rights of man. Two years later speaking in
The Hague, he presided over a grand Congress of 800 delegates and said " in the centre of our movement stands
the idea of a charter of human rights, guarded by freedom and
sustained by law".
The Congress issued a message to Europeans and called for a charter of human rights
and "a court of justice, adequate sanctions for the implementation of
this Charter ". That led in 19 5215 European nations signing the
convention, with Britain the first
two ratify it in 1951. The text was largely crafted by a team at Oxford and Cambridge professors, headed by Maxwell Fyfe and other British
politicians involved in the drafting
including Harold Macmillan, and Ernest Bevan. The signatories described the convention as a
mechanism for "enforcement of certain of the rights stated in the
Universal Declaration".
Churchill wanted "moral concepts able to win
the respect and recognition of mankind " urging lawmakers to let there be justice, mercy and freedom.
Churchill envisaged a Strasbourg court where violations might be brought to the judgement of the
civilised world. In a ringing endorsement, the daily Telegraph
said the convention was the turning point where the free peoples of Europe rejected enslavement anti-
Communist system and defeated all attempts to poison and destroy their democratic traditions from within.
The Times described it as a crucial step towards safeguarding fundamental freedoms and promoting a common European heritage of justice
and the rule of law.
The convention had created a common legal space for over 700 million citizens,
prohibiting among other things torture or inhuman, degrading treatment or punishment. Slavery, in
forced labour. Arbitrary or unlawful detention. The 14 articles protect basic rights. The right to life. The right to privacy. Conscience. And
religion. Freedom of expression. The right to a fair trial. The right to family life. And more. The UK
subsequently ratified protocols to the convention on the abolition of
the death penalty in all circumstances and additional rights,
the right to free enjoyment of property.
The right to education. The right to free and fair
elections. Parties to the convention undertake to secure convention rights and freedoms to everyone
within their jurisdiction. Underpinned by the creation of the
European Court of Human Rights which deals with individual and interstate relations. During the years following its creation, the
convention commanded widespread cross party support. Lord
chancellors have described it as part of the armoury of weapons
against elective dictatorship. Lord
Clarke of Nottingham said pulling out of the convention was xenophobic
and nonsense.
And notably on the SDP benches, there were lifelong supporters of the ECHR. Margaret
Thatcher declared that the UK was " committed to and supported the
principles of human rights in the ECHR". Sir John Major reiterated the
commitment in 1998 Tony Blair recorded the rights and liberties enshrined in the convention in the
Human Rights Act. Lord Irvine of lead told this House the act does not create new human rights or take existing human rights away. It provides better and easier access to
rights which already exist.
The 1998 act was described as bringing rights
home. Beyond our home, the ECHR
provides reassurance to everyone living and travelling in the Council of Europe area that we share similar enforceable human rights standards.
Notwithstanding recent calls to leave the ECHR, this government said it remained fully committed to the
ECHR and to the important role of the multilateral organisations such
as the Council of Europe in upholding it. The Council of Europe predates the European Union and has
no connection to it.
19 member states are not members of the
European union, including the UK. With Russia expelled because of its illegal invasion of Ukraine. ECHR
and the Council of Europe are inextricably bound together. Leaving
the convention clearly means leaving the Council of Europe. So Jonathan Jones, a former Treasury Solicitor
and Permanent Secretary of the legal department said the ECHR withdrawal
would " involve leaving the Council of Europe, which is responsible for
the convention". A resolution of the Parliamentary assembly of the
Council of Europe states accession
to the Council of Europe must go together with becoming a party to that European Convention on Human Rights, while the European Court of Human Rights insists today more than ever the convention is the
cornerstone of the Council of Europe and any state wishing to be a member
Last month, the current president of the Council of Europe of the
Parliamentary assembly gave a Lord
Speaker lecture, paying tribute.
To those who today demand we believe the ECHR and therefore the Council of Europe, it simply asked them to Tellers which rights of the convention they object to. Do we
really want to join Belarus and Russia as the only countries not
part of any pan-European body? In 2001, Parliament created the Joint
Committee on Human Rights, which I have the honour to chair, although today I speak for myself and not the
committee, the committee has a remit to examine matters relating to human
rights in the UK, and its historically functioned as a champion for convention rights.
The JCHR pays close attention to the cases before the European Court
whose judges are elected to the Council of Europe's Parliamentary
assembly, and we've noted the role of the convention and the court by
way of example, for instance by ending the ban on gay people in the military and homosexual criminal is a in Northern Ireland. In
prohibiting the retention for life of DNA samples of innocent people on
indiscriminate phone tapping, on the plight of the Sunday Times when they were prohibited from publishing
information about thalidomide on the protection of vulnerable victims, domestic violence, on the combating
of racism and the degrading punishment of a teenager in the Isle
of Man.
Our current JCHR inquiries were protecting nationals of Iraq, forced supply chains, and previous inquiries included reform of the
Human Rights Act and the right to family life. Last week we held a roundtable on the Mental Health Bill where we heard stories of detention and incarceration. Earlier this week
I met with the United Nations High Commissioner on human rights to
discuss will be actually mean by human rights and how deeply they are connected to the laws we proclaim
the conventions we have signed and the traditions of liberty and
freedom represented by this place.
The European Convention on Human
Rights is an essential part of that tradition. Malcolm Bishop Casey, writing in the new law journal says,
" The convention is now firmly embedded in the common law and
impressive corpus of jurisprudence has emerged, which in my opinion has
made this country a better place. I agree. To its detractors, and for
the record, in 2024, the court gave just two judgements on the merits of
cases involving the United Kingdom. A violation is found in one case and no violation is found in the other.
In a commentary earlier this week,
Joshua Rosen tree addressed the Carrick character which is often
late at the door. They have three per million people while all states
combined was 47.4 per million. The reason of course why there are so
few UK cases is that broadly we obey the ECHR. Those who want to reduce
the UK legal standards, some even of course want to tear up the Human Rights Act would vandalise our
constitutional settlement. This and leaving the convention in a fit of
pique rather than engaging and reforming it is not worthy of this country or those who entrusted this
extraordinary legacy to us.
At the outset of my remarks, I record coca
guards thought that life can only be understood backwards, but it must be
lived forwards. Institutions and conventions are not set in stone.
There is always scope for political debate and great definition of the respective role of parliaments and
judges around controversial issues such as border control, an issue which the JCHR will examine. But to
throw away all the gains would make no sense and merely play into the
hands of dictators and enemies of democracy.
We are experiencing war in Europe along with contempt and
disregard for international law and institutions, including despicable attacks on the international
criminal law. We've seen the rise of
autocracies with global reach, even breaching the UK through transnational oppression by hostile states. Rights and freedoms are
under assault from within and without. And in this context, we are
therefore right to recall the spirit of 75 years ago animated remarkable
leaders. We are entitled to have pride in the significant British contribution in creating both the
Universal Declaration of human rights and the European Convention on Human Rights, genuine pride in
the developed of human rights, international law and the protection
of fundamental rights and freedoms.
To defend this legacy, we must
become far more robust in the public domain. In our schools and universities and in setting out the Patriot case for these shared
fundamental values. In the 75th anniversary year of the European Convention on Human Rights, we are
entitled to look back on what was
achieved in the ruins of Europe. Out of the ashes of Auschwitz. We must insist that those concerns remain
vitally relevant to this day and that they are crucial to our future.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move. The question is that this motion be agreed to.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
be agreed to. I declare interests as the author
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I declare interests as the author of the Penguin book human rights, the case for the defence. As a new member of our delegation to the Parliamentary assembly to the Council of Europe and as a lifelong
13:22
Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)
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Council of Europe and as a lifelong human rights lawyer and campaigner. I must congratulate the Noble Lord Bolton on such a well-deserved
appointment as chair of the human rights committee. And for that
outstanding opening of his debate, and I will keep the 75th anniversary
of the convention which protects the civil rights of around 700 million
people in 46 states. I've been working with the convention on an
almost daily basis for around 30 of
those years.
Both for and against UK governments, domestically and in the Strasbourg court that has rendered
it perhaps the most effective international human rights mechanism
in the world. Most formative Lee, I was a government lawyer in the late 1990s during the passage and
implementation of our Human Rights Act. At liberty, the National Council for Civil Liberties from
2001 until 2016. And we've been so
eloquently reminded of the history of white Conservative politician jurist and Yung Berg prosecutor
David Maxwell Fyfe was deputed to
lead the convention drafting process after the Council of Europe was founded by the Treaty of London in
1949.
If there were ever any doubts about the direct relationship
between justice and peace, the 1930s had ended it. And this was
especially so in Europe where two
approximate world wars had begun. It
could be no surprise that those seeking to rebuild the lands of Milton, Molly, Mozart and
Michelangelo should have made cooperating around human rights
enforcement a priority. If we have sometimes been a little complacent
in the intervening years, surely
that is over now.
As war and far
right is once more stalk Europe and respect for the rule of law is far from secure, even in that great old constitutional democracy across the
Atlantic. And in any event, I can report first-hand the many ways in
which the convention has come to the
aid of people in the United Kingdom where both their common law and
legislators previously failed them. The full Strasbourg intervention,
victims of rape were subjected to days of degrading cross-examination in person by their alleged
assailants, contrary to article 3.
Similarly, abusive parents who beat
their children to a pulp could be acquitted of the grave offence of causing grievous bodily harm by
deploying the defence of reasonable chastisement of a child. Indeed I go
as far as suggesting that victims of crime may be amongst those who have
most benefited from the convention effect upon our domestic law. Before
and since the Human Rights Act 1998 brought rights home to be directly
brought rights home to be directly
enforceable here.
There are numerous examples to the U.K.'s privacy, free speech, nondiscrimination and other vital rights and freedoms being
insured and enhanced by the convention. It would be far from
liberal or progressive and certainly deeply un-conservative. Not to treasure it.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I congratulate the Noble Lord Alton for whom I have enormously
Alton for whom I have enormously high regard in securing this debate and his introduction to it. It's a paradox that defenders of the supranational European Court of
supranational European Court of Human Rights invariably begin by an appeal to British chauvinism laced
with deference to Conservative icons. By invoking the creation
icons. By invoking the creation myth. That goes as follows. The ECHR was a British invention inspired by Churchill, drafted by Maxwell Fyfe,
13:26
Lord Lilley (Conservative)
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Churchill, drafted by Maxwell Fyfe, which codified historic British rights and since we were the first
country to ratify it must have been eagerly endorsed by us. I'm afraid
that's a missed entirely false.
that's a missed entirely false.
After the government ratified the convention with great reluctance and only on the condition that the future European court would have no jurisdiction in the UK since British people would not be allowed to take
cases to the court. They also treated the convention is non- binding, deliberately not altering laws known to be incompatible with
it.
Moreover, when Churchill returned to Number Ten a few months
later with Maxwell Fyfe now Lord
Kilmer year as his Lord Chancellor, despite some ambiguous enthusiasm for it in opposition, he adopted
exactly the same position as Attlee, as did subsequent Conservative Prime
Minister's. Not allowing the court jurisdiction in the UK. The second
myth about the ECHR was that it simply codified British rights which had evolved over centuries. If that was all it did, British membership would confer little benefit and
leaving would be no loss.
This myth implies that few British laws would be incompatible with the convention.
If only. Judgements have been made
in 506 to seven cases, and the UK found to be in violation in one or more respects in no fewer than 329
of them by the Strasbourg court. In addition, the court has decided over
25,000 British cases by rejecting or
declaring the vast majority inadmissible, but after enriching the lawyers, and that would be no surprise to those advising this
Government who warned that allowing for calls to Strasbourg would, "
Provide a small paradise for some lawyers." Now among its most enthusiastic supporters.
In the
immigration and asylum tribunal is
alone, human rights cases were 40% of the 350,000 cases received over
the last eight years. To say it has no impact within the UK is an
absurdity. The original purpose of the European court was not to fine
tune each country's statute book but to protect fundamental freedoms from torture, slavery, arbitrary arrest et cetera. The third myth is that
the court has succeeded in this objective. It was always unrealistic
to imagine that any regime which was prepared to use torture, slavery or arbitrary arrest would be put off by
the prospect of an adverse ruling by a foreign court.
In practice, whenever an authoritarian regime has
come to power, adherence to the ECHR is not dissuading them from jumping on human rights. When the Greek
colonels faced an ECHR ruling about
the use of torture, they simply
withdrew from the convention. Russia was expelled for the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, not for its rampant domestic human rights violations. Belarus abandoned its observer status rather than
implement convention rights for the
both Azerbaijan and Turkey have gone pretty far down the road to authoritarian regimes while still remaining in the convention.
One recent France, this is little-known,
didn't even ratify the convention
until 1974 was that it was aware of the use of torture and other abuses of human rights during the war in
Algeria and had other reasons afterwards for remaining outside. Indeed it didn't allow its citizens to take cases to Strasbourg until
1981 but suffered little propria for doing so or not doing a. Opprobrium.
The fact that if Britain left, it would be joining Belarus and Russia
is puerile.
We would be joining other common law countries, democracies, Canada, Australia and
New Zealand who uphold human rights without relying on a supranational
without relying on a supranational
court. We make it democratic not handover the right to make laws to an international court, giving it the power to legislate rather than enforce the law.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I congratulate the Noble Lord Alton for his excellent opening to
13:30
Lord Thomas of Gresford (Liberal Democrat)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
Alton for his excellent opening to When Ernest Davies signed the Convention in 1950 in Rome, he was
Convention in 1950 in Rome, he was not carving a monument in stone. He was putting his name to a dynamic,
was putting his name to a dynamic, living convention. There were 15
signatories. Now there are 46. Excluding only Belarus and Russia in
the European context. The guide to the European Court puts it this way,
the European Court puts it this way, by case law the court has extended the rights set out in the convention.
Such as the provisions that apply today to situations that
were unforeseeable and unimaginable at the time it was first adopted.
New technology. Bioethics. The environment. It also applies to societal and sensitive questions related to terrorism or migration.
Abortion. Assisted suicide. Body searches. Domestic slavery.
Adoptions by homosexuals. Wearing religious symbols. The protection of
journalistic sources or the retention of DNA data. What happens
when there is no European
Convention? Last week in the US, hundreds of Venezuelans were shipped to El Salvador.
They were treated in
an inhuman, degrading manner which would contravene article 3 of the
European Convention. They were shackled, Article 5. Without any
form of trial, article 6. No ability to complain to a court of a violation of their rights, article
13. The US is a country which bells the need to Magna Carta and the rule
of law. But the US federal judge who sought to block the move has been
ignored. Too late, said the president of El Salvador.
Pocketing the millions of dollars paid to his
country. Where have we seen this
behaviour before? Nazi Germany. Whose crimes motivated European countries to come together to sign
the convention. There is a suggestion by the noble Lord Lilley
and others that the UK should withdraw and write its own presumably on the trump model. But
presumably on the trump model. But
there is good news. The human rights act came into force in 2000. Since then there have been 245 judgements against the UK.
Finding at least one
violation of the Convention. But the
number of cases has steadily declined from 18 per year in the
beginning to just two in 2022. On the number of applications as Lord
Alton pointed out, against the UK, it was the lowest per capita now of
all European states. So we have succeeded in bringing the convention home as Baroness Chakrabarti pointed
out. So that our own courts can and do apply its provisions in appropriate cases. Three reasons.
First, the Human Rights Act creates a legal obligation for all public bodies, including the police, hospitals, care homes and local
councils, to protect rights in all their decisions and actions. Meaning people's rights are less likely to
be breached. Second, the United Kingdom courts are now the first port of call for any human rights
claimant. United Kingdom judges consider human rights more explicitly and intensely than they
could before. Third, the European Court is much more likely today in considering applications in this
country, to follow the reasoning and conclusions of our courts and the
decisions of our public authorities.
It respects our judges and the way in which the Human Rights Act is
applied. Ernest Davies, Bevan,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Clement Attlee, they were right to feel proud of what they had done. I also would like to add my
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I also would like to add my thanks to the noble Lord Alton for getting this debate and for his
getting this debate and for his speech. I am not going to explore
the legal implications. I want to
make some illogical points if I may. I want to comment on the origins of
13:36
The Lord Bishop of St Albans (Bishops)
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I want to comment on the origins of where we have got to that work developed into a stream and river and how still today our understanding of rights and
responsibilities is developing. The noble Lord Lilley is right. It starts going back to the early chapters of Genesis. In fact you
could go back to 1,700 years before
could go back to 1,700 years before Christ. But let's go back to the 10 Commandments. When we find the creation of humankind, created in God's image.
It is about the inherent dignity that belongs to
inherent dignity that belongs to each and every person. Not entered into upon sex, wealth, education or
any other differentiation. This is implied in the 10 Commandments. It
is developed further in passages
such as Deuteronomy. Where God determines the cause of the widow and the stranger in the land. The prophet Isaiah urges people to seek
justice. To correct oppression. To
plead for the widow. As Jonathan Sacks, a former member of your Lordships' House was keen to point
out, rights are things we claim.
Duties are things we perform. Duties in other words he said are translated from the passive to the
active mode. The biblical teaching in the new Testament reaches its fullest expression in reciprocity
inhuman relating. Expressed that we should love the Lord our God with all our heart, solemn mind and love
our neighbours as ourselves. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find the phrase human rights. Certainly no
reference to the ECHR. Some theology
and is have argued that human rights
are a fiction.
-- Theology experts. Others including a former member of
this House, Lord Williams disagreed with the fundamental theological point being not so much that every person has a specific set of
positive claims to be enforced, but that the persons, minority groups of persons, needs to be recognised as belonging to the same moral and civic world as the majority.
Whatever differences or disagreements there may be. He went on to argue "a proper consideration of human rights as a better chance
of sustaining its case if it begins from the recognition of a common
dignity or worthiness of respect among members of a community than if it assumes some comprehensive
catalogue of claims".
Which might be enforceable. My Lords, all laws and indeed all conventions are
ultimately human constructs stop
there are of course some who dislike the ECHR and indeed have problems with the whole wider issue of human
rights. There are of course people
who are not happy with the way that the court is interpreted with the underlying legal principles
enshrined in the Convention. But my Lords, the huge benefits it has
brought to so many people,
particularly to people traditionally marginalised and who have not been given the ability to participate and engage, surely that outweighs the
frustrations that sometimes people
feel.
I for one and thankful that we have the ECHR.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
-- And thankful.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
-- And thankful. As your Lordships will know, and I'm sure the Right Reverend Prelate, for whom it is a pleasure to follow will know, in George Orwell's 1984,
will know, in George Orwell's 1984, three great regional powers, Oceania, Eurasia and East Asia
Oceania, Eurasia and East Asia confront each other with constantly
confront each other with constantly shifting alliances. Why those alliances shift is never clear. But
alliances shift is never clear. But it is the people in the human rights that suffer.
Today there is of
course 1/4 great power in the world. Not only in a rather different form
from the others and Russia but China as well. Watching and no doubt
considering its options for Taiwan. One cannot push narratives and
analogies too far. But we do now live in a world of great power
machismo. Where international cooperation and international
agreements are too often flouted. But it is precisely at times like
these that they are so needed.
And why it is right to focus now on the
European Convention on Human Rights. Too often Europe that we like to think of as civilised has experienced the abuse of human
rights. In Ukraine today, in the aftermath of the wholly unjustified
and unjustifiable Russian invasion. In Bosnia. Serbia. Kosovo 20 years
ago. In the chaos and anarchy of eastern Europe after the Second
World War. Brilliantly evoked in the books of Primo Levy. It is a tribute
to the ECHR that more than 40 countries, with Russia of course
expelled, are now members.
And have accepted the international legal
obligation to protect human rights.
In our case through the implementation of the human rights act. Of course the ECHR is not
13:41
Lord Jay of Ewelme (Crossbench)
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perfect. Of course some member
perfect. Of course some member states failed to observe all their
states failed to observe all their obligations under it. Through your (APPLAUSE) Example other parts of the world are the better for it however. As an
the better for it however. As an original secretary, Britain gained
original secretary, Britain gained respect and influence. As a constructive and active member that
constructive and active member that must remain the case. So Britain can help realise the ECHR principles.
So
I do not favour withdrawal from the ECHR. I believe in exercising our influence for good within it. I am
glad the Prime Minister has said the
government is unequivocally committed to it. I hope the noble
lady the Minister will repeat that commitment today.
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My Lords, I want to first of all make my own declaration that I am a practitioner at the English bar but I am the president of the Council of
I am the president of the Council of Justice, which is a leading British law organisation. I am the director of the bar Association Human Rights
of the bar Association Human Rights Institute, and as you heard earlier, I am currently working for President
I am currently working for President
Zelensky, heading up with his task force to try to get their children back from Russia.
I have been
working on that for a number of years with the Observatory and other bodies. I want to thank Lord Alton.
13:43
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Labour)
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We owe him a debt of gratitude in this House for his constant reminders to us of our common
reminders to us of our common humanity. He is tireless in his work on the abuses that happen around the
on the abuses that happen around the world. So it is no surprise he is speaking here in the protection of the values of the European
the values of the European Convention on Human Rights. It amazes me the very same people who fought to take us out of the European Union, ruinous for the
European Union, ruinous for the economy of this country, are still seeking to sever ties with European
seeking to sever ties with European neighbours.
Especially when it is at this moment in time that it is clear
we have to retain our bonds of connection with Europe and European nations in the face of grievous
threats from Russia. The withdrawal from the European Convention would
be disastrous. The human rights act has enriched our law enormously. It
has been especially productive for women. I say that as someone who has
been on the front line in cases concerning the rights of women. You
only have to think about the case of
wall boys where it was possible to make sure that rape was probably -- properly recognised before
prosecutions.
There have been better
protections because of the human rights act. The ending of the ban of gay people in the army. The enquiry
into the sex abuse of women in the
army. The better protection of and against corporal punishment. Also against sexual abuse. The greater protection of the media. The ending of detention without trial at the
of detention without trial at the
beginning of the 21st century. The prevention of torture from other countries being used in evidence in our courts. The protection of religious freedom.
The list is
enormous. It is vitally important in
the Northern Ireland peace process. You cannot pull out of the ECHR without leaving the Council of
Europe. This aligns with democracy, human rights and the rule of law in
46 states. Since inception, the Council of Europe has accepted over
200 treaties, conventions and protocols. Including the Istanbul convention to end violence against
women and girls. To end domestic violence. The Lanzarote Convention on protecting children from sexual exploitation and abuse. The Council
of Europe Convention against human trafficking.
The Council of Europe
carries out work to promote and defend, and I hear muttering on the front benches across the way, but
really remember the work that was done through the Council of Europe in defending regional democracy and
governance. Going and observing elections and promoting good governance through the exchange of
experience among member states. It also fights corruption, terrorism and undertakes necessary judicial
reform. It has constitutional experts to offer legal advice to member states. We are going to pull
out of that? In the face of the ongoing Russian aggression the Council of Europe is supporting the
people of Ukraine.
It has dedicated action plans and the Council of Europe has a development bank aiding
Ukraine in its recovery efforts. And
Are we really going to put all this at risk? Are we really going to
reduce ourselves to little Englanders? Because the people of
the UK don't want to leave the European Convention on Human Rights. European Convention on Human Rights.
13:46
The Earl of Dundee (Conservative)
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While congratulating the Noble Lord Alton on securing this debate,
I begin by paying tribute as he and
others have done to one of the ECHR funders founders and drafters, said David Maxwell Fyfe, later as Phi can
kill me from 1964 to 62 to be Lord
Chancellor here under Churchill and two early on the Nuremberg trials
through his fair-minded skill and clarity as a prosecuting counsel played an enormous part in enabling
the German public to understand and accept the guilt of their leaders
for crimes against humanity.
His cross-examination of Herman Goering becoming one of the most noted in
history, and I join with your lordships in getting huge thanks to
ECHR whose 75th anniversary we now commemorate. The extent to which in
healing wounds with balanced purpose and already implied by the right
Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of St
Albans is also reinvigorating the heart, mind and soul of Europe. Yet furthermore, for its success in
providing soft power direction and stability well beyond Europe and throughout the world.
Thus with
efficacy, what was intended to in the first place as expressed by Maxwell Fyfe in Strasbourg in August
1959 and, " We cannot let the matter rest at a declaration of moral
principles and pious aspirations excellent though the latter may be.
There must be a binding convention." In my remarks today, I will very briefly touch on three aspects.
Scope of the United Kingdom to achieve results through the Council of Europe, education as a human
right, and the practicalities of its delivery.
During the progress of the data, your lordships will recall
that this House voted to protect private copyright under the Council of Europe standards. Yet in which regard we can still proudly reflect that in the first place, the present
copyright protection ECHR conventions are themselves precedented and inspired by the
United Kingdom 's in 1710, three years after the 1717 act of union
and through the statute which granted publishers of books legal protection. Particularly so to
advantage here is revising changes and is emphasised by Noble Lord Lord
Alton and others countless examples come to mind of the Council of
Europe as a natural ally.
Within which affiliation 46 states United
Kingdom remains a prominent member and where I am a recent chairman of
its committee for education. As we all well aware, the numerous groups of people suffering disadvantage in
education range from girls and women, students with disability and special needs, learners living in remote areas, refugees and asylum
seekers to those experiencing discrimination against them from a
number of pretexts and prejudices, and not least those living in countries where education systems
are insufficiently developed.
During this G-7 presidency in 2021, United
Kingdom gave a commitment to promote education in the Third World and
elsewhere as necessary. What actions have the government taken since then? Which initiatives are in
progress? Can the noble Lady the
Minister a firm that such G-7 plans have been clearly designed and carried out so that they can contribute towards building up the strength of international
communities themselves. Plans to the government have along with international partners, including the Council of Europe to coordinate
the delivery of a variety of international education initiatives which are at risk of financial cuts.
As well as students, clearly such intervention stand to benefit communities, cities and regions as
well. One example is a current academic partnership of joint search
in green energy between the Scottish University Highlands and Islands and the United Kingdom and the
University in Croatia. Having helped put steel I declare an interest as
current chairman of the all-party parliamentary group Croatia. What steps the government now taking actively to encourage similar
partnerships, possibly facilitated by the rise Mike arising under the
schemes.
Following ECHR and education as a human right, enhanced prospects for well be world peace
From opportunity to grassroots and all international communities, given the G-7 countries have already
embraced that objective, United Kingdom its own interest and that of others must now help to ensure that this objective is properly carried
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out. About 10 years ago as a minister
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About 10 years ago as a minister I visited the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. I was there to apologise to the committee
there to apologise to the committee of ministers for the fact that we had not yet given business vote.
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Lord Faulks (Non-affiliated)
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had not yet given business vote. While I was there, the president of the court kindly gave me a book
about the convention and court entitled conscience of Europe. It was a fascinating account of the
establishment of the court and its development for the subsequent 65
years. But it is important of course to remember the context in which the
convention was born. The Noble Lord has given a very vivid account of that. A continent devastated by war
in which the population had been deprived of all the most basic human rights.
But did the architects of
the ECHR really envisage that an asylum seeker here would be able to
rely on the convention in arguing
that his children's liking for chicken nuggets means that he should not be returned to his country of
origin as to do so would violate his human rights. This and so many other
cases have trivialised human rights and not reflective of the legacy of those responsible for the
convention. I should declare an interest as a member of the commission on the Bill of Rights at
up by the coalition government.
Or perhaps more important is the fact that since the 1998 Human Rights Act came into force, I've regularly
acted for public authorities. Does not permit me to give a full list of
all my failures. I was recently reminded of one. A group of
prisoners sought damages on the basis of their human rights violating because they were not given heroin Austin prison, a breach
apparently of article 3. I acted for the police as a number of Nigerian
young women living in this country had been kept in domestic servitude
by some rather richer Nigerians.
The court was asked to find and did find that the police were guilty of a
violation of human rights for not being sufficiently curious. Not the
girls captors, the police. I'm extremely reluctant to suggest leaving an international institution
of any sort. We know they are really
perfect and surely better that they exist. I'm particularly conscious of remaining on good terms with our European allies, particular at this
moment. I voted to remain in the European Union. But I've come to the conclusion that at the very least, we should repeal the Human Rights
Act.
The obligation in the legislation to take into account Strasbourg jurisprudence has produced some very unsatisfactory
results. The process of taking account can itself be difficult
given the variable quality of some of the judgements. What it has meant is that we play far greater heed to
the courts decisions than any other countries within the Council of
Europe. A particular irony since there are so few decisions actually
against us. The United Kingdom. This government has an almost theological
approach to the ECHR and the HRA, but critics of the way it has operated in practice are not
confined to those on the right as Noble Lords observed.
My view is
Noble Lords observed. My view is
that the courts in Parliament are better than subtracting to an
international court. Alec others are most grateful to the neighbour Lord
Alton for bringing this debate your Lordship's House with his passion for the protection of human rights, he would have made a great contribution to the ECHR had he been
around at the time. Indeed he would have been a worthy Guardian of the conscience of Europe. It is thus a
matter of profound regret that I must express the view that the whole
concept of human rights has been brought significantly into
disrepute.
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I spent 21 years as a barrister. And then five years as a judge. Arguing and applying English law
Arguing and applying English law while the rights contained in the human rights Convention were not
human rights Convention were not part of our law. Then from 2001, shortly after the Human Rights Act came into force, I spent 16 years as
came into force, I spent 16 years as a judge applying and developing our
law so that in incorporated rights. Across the UK legal system, whether in civil law, public law, criminal
in civil law, public law, criminal law or family law, the Human Rights Act introduced importantly rights
such as the right to privacy and family life.
It reinvigorated many
previous stultifying rights such as freedom from detention. Every emphasised the importance of vital
13:57
Lord Neuberger of Abbotsbury (Crossbench)
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rights such as freedom of expression. And it increased the rights of all citizens against
rights of all citizens against excessive state, particularly important feature at the time of
important feature at the time of ever increasing regulation. I'm no
ever increasing regulation. I'm no starry human rights group E. As a senior judge I try to ensure that the new human rights jurisprudence did not cause the common law, of
did not cause the common law, of which this country should be so proud, to wither away.
Rather, I
proud, to wither away. Rather, I tried and I hope together with my colleagues succeeded in ensuring that the churches developed the
common law so that it incorporated and benefited from the principles of
the Convention. Of course human rights law can occasionally lead to results with which many people will
disagree. But application of established law in any field can
result in unpopular decisions. And that's a particular risk with a law
which pains on such a broad canvas.
Many decisions which were unpopular
in this connection are concerned with asylum. And this countries international duties with regard to
asylum seekers are controlled as much by United Nations treaties as
they are by the convention. And there is a real danger that the public get a warped view of human
rights with the media focusing on cases which could be portrayed as leading to surprising results. Many
of those cases are inaccurately or
very one-sided Lee reported. And while there are a number that are not unfairly or inaccurately reported, they should be contrasted
with many many unreported decisions where human rights have been able or
assisted a judge to get a fair answer which otherwise he or she may
not or could not have done.
In a number of cases where the result
does seem rather odd, and sometimes rather surprised that the government or the relevant public body has not
chosen to appeal. Judges don't always get things right, and appeal
courts are there to deal with that. And too often there are no appeals
when they should be. 46 countries have signed up to the convention.
It's a civilised force in an increasingly unstable world. Because
it's decisions apply over so many countries, the Strasbourg court judges generally appreciate that they have to tread carefully when
laying down the law.
They've
developed the concept of a margin of appreciation to enable individual countries to make their own rules in
some sensitive areas like assisted suicide. And Mike Spears in knowledge, the Strasbourg judges
have been prepared to reconsider to go back and decisions when a UK
court has given judgement explaining why they think that a particular Strasbourg court decision may be
inappropriate for the UK. This country is almost unique in the
world and having no coherent overarching constitutional document.
, has a particularly important role
in protecting individual freedoms and liberties.
It's been very carefully drafted so as to give human rights a special status in our constitution without overriding the
supremacy of Parliament. We should
be valuing it, not trashing it.
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I draw the attention of the House to my registered interest. I'm a partner of the good faith partnership which provides the
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Lord Rook (Labour)
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partnership which provides the secretariat for the UK forum. I think the neighbour Lord Alton for
this debate and as other Noble Lords have noted, for his tireless commitment to human rights. He has long been an inspiration to me
personally and as a new member of the House I hope to become more like him when I grow up. I wish to draw
attention to the importance of the European Convention on Human Rights for pursuance of freedom of religion
or belief. One is the growing realisation of the full and horrific extent of the Holocaust, the issue
of freedom of religion is core to the convention.
Everyone, article 9 declares has the right to freedom of
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Sadly the fight for religious
freedom has been far from won. There are many severe and significant restrictions upon freedoms. That
restrictions upon freedoms. That number is rising. While the continent is home to the convention, there remains work to be done and
there remains work to be done and threats to guard against. A few
threats to guard against. A few years ago I sat in the gallery of the Bundestag witnessing the understandable anger and outrage of the majority of members, as one party repeatedly refused to condemn
party repeatedly refused to condemn the internment of Muslims in so-
called education camps in China.
Watching this play out in that place
was chilling to say the least. I am grateful for the leadership of our
government in this area. For the work of Lord Collins and Baroness Chapman and for the appointment of my honourable friend David Smith MP
as the Special Envoy for freedom of
I am certain they will build on the work of Lord Ahmed of Wimbledon and previous envoys and ensure that we as a country remain a leading force
for freedom of religion and belief around the world.
Finally I would ask the Minister to take the opportunity to assure this House of
this government's continued support for the court that upholds the convention. As the noble Lord Alton
mentioned, the European Court of Human Rights has only once found the
UK to be in breach of article 9. We can certainly be proud of our
record. We must continue to hold ourselves to the highest standards. We must make ourselves accountable
for our decisions and actions. The challenge to reduce persecution
around the world is beyond the
powers of any one country.
At a time when intergovernmental institutions are all too often and all too easily undermined, the court and its
convention are offering opportunities for nations to work
together and fashion a world where people are truly free.
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My Lords, it is a privilege to
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My Lords, it is a privilege to serve on the Joint Committee on Human Rights under the chairmanship of the noble Lord Alton. His timely debate and constitution we heard --
debate and constitution we heard -- As a practitioner in law and the human rights and as a member of the Joint Committee and like all noble lords who have spoken, I place the
highest values upon human rights. However human rights are not one in the same thing as the European
Convention as it is today.
In March 2021, the former professor of law at the University of Oxford John
Phyllis and I wrote a paper entitled "immigration Strasbourg and judicial
overreach". It is on that paper the
noble Lord Hoffmann noted there is only one way to determine the limits
of the commitments undertaken by states which subscribe to the European Convention on Human Rights
and that is by reading the instrument and construing it against
the background which would have been known or assumed by the parties at
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Lord Murray of Blidworth (Conservative)
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the time. Indeed this is the only way to understand the meaning of any utterance whatever. But the European
utterance whatever. But the European Court of Human Rights felt free to
Court of Human Rights felt free to give the convention a meaning which could not possibly have been intended by its subscribers. On the ground. That it is a living
ground. That it is a living
ground. That it is a living instrument. Which it is entitled and indeed required to update in accordance with what it considers to
accordance with what it considers to be the spirit of the times.
In the paper, we examined the transformation of the Convention in
respect of immigration policy, and
the position in 1951 being secretary of state had no obligation to let in
refugees and no legal or treaty obligation to accept refugees at all, and had no absolute obligation to continue to provide asylum for
refugees who are a danger to the community. They were matters for the
community. They were matters for the
states themselves. 40 years later, the European Court of Human Rights set out a line of judgements which has circumvented those principles.
It has done so long two routes. The
first give the ECHR absolute prohibition and a radically
Morally nor legally warranted. The second circumvention has been on article 8. The right to a private
and family life. It has been expanded to override immigration controls. Something which those who drafted, signed and ratified the convention would certainly have
rejected. These misinterpretations facilitate unlawful migration.
Incentivise it. And hamper European states in justly handling the
issues. Expansive and inauthentic treaty interpretations such as these
are contributing substantially to the real risk the rule of law in European states will be
overstrained.
Behind this judicial transformation of refugee and
Gration law lies the doctrine that
the ECHR is a living instrument. -- Refugee and Gration law. It allows
the reform of social arrangements, even fundamental ones. Either without debate and approval from
democratic legislatures, or with a retrospective approval, strongly encouraged by assertions from the court that these reports are already
required by law and international agreements and obligations which this country has long accepted as
binding. In either form this is an unconstitutional purpose.
It is not
fitting for the ECHR. The convention was intended not to provide an engine to social reform. Still less
for top-down reform. But to block
regression from the level of the
respect of rights there was in 1950 and the standard in 1950 of the founding states. Distinguish be defeated fascist states and communist tyranny is imposed on
communist tyranny is imposed on
communist tyranny is imposed on
The calls for withdrawal that we have seen in relation to the convention come about as a result of
these issues.
I submit that this House will expect to see the
European Convention on Human Rights either reformed or face a clamour
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which may be unavoidable. I want to congratulate Lord Alton for securing this important debate on the 75th anniversary of the
on the 75th anniversary of the European Convention on Human Rights. I echo the remarks of Lady Kennedy about the important contribution Lord Alton has made to human rights
Lord Alton has made to human rights over many years. I declare my interest as a delegate to the
interest as a delegate to the Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe and a member of the committee on legal of and human
the committee on legal of and human rights.
I am also chair of the committee of Liberal International, a designated NGO to the UN Council
a designated NGO to the UN Council of human rights. In following the
noble Lord Murray of Blidworth, I
have to say that I did not agree with his views but I am grateful he and I are both free to say those things we wish to. Which millions
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Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
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elsewhere in the world cannot because they do not have the freedom
to do so. Others have already explained about the European Convention and the role of the Council of Europe in establishing
Council of Europe in establishing the creation of the court of human
the creation of the court of human rights. They appoint judges, take evidence on key matters related to human rights and it is also able to
human rights and it is also able to bring states together to address the failures, even or especially member
states.
They meet in two weeks to address the new Georgian government macro breaches of human rights after
elections last year. Every day many thousands of peaceful protesters
come together across the Georgia to remind the new government that their elections were not democratic. That
new laws enabling imprisonment for minor offences, ex-traditional murdering of journalist and
imprisoning civic leaders, including artists, actors, journalists and
politicians continues. As a result they must decide whether to
recognise the credentials of the Georgian party given human rights infringements and as mentioned, it
infringements and as mentioned, it
has done this before.
Following the 2022 invasion of Ukraine, they did not recognise the Russian delegation and Russia was expelled. UN watch, a
Geneva-based NGO who monitors the performance of the UN by the yardstick of its own charter, made
the case in April 2022 to the general assembly following the
murder of civilians in Ukraine, Russia should be suspended from
Human Rights Council. It is wrong to be overseeing the protection of human rights while clearly
obliterating them and they were suspended by a majority. Following
the murder by Uranian police of women's right activists in 2022, the
UN economic and social Council
suspended a run from the commission of the status of women until 2026.
-- Suspended Iran. This is
important. As a body of states that really agrees on everything. But
occasionally with outrageous breaches of human rights, it is important action is taken. These two
states as well as China are now using extraterritorial action. A
sadly growing area of human rights
abuse. The murder of Alexander Litvinenko in London. The attempted Salisbury murders. The murder of Dawn Sturgess. A completely innocent
Dawn Sturgess. A completely innocent
bystander. Making the UK and its people at risk of human rights infringements by other states on our own territory.
China like Iran and
Russia also follow and monitor exiles abroad and the families of
those who have fled. The threat to their safety is real. In July 2023
the police in Southampton charged a Chinese national student with racially motivated assault after he
and others assaulted a Hong Kong man on the street. In that same month in
Southampton, footage emerged showing pro-Hong Kong demonstrators being violently attacked by a group of
Chinese nationals. Our frontline police being trained to recognise this extraterritorial action by
other countries? Are individuals at risk of being given support and
protection? Are we working with other countries and the Council of Europe on how to tackle this
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egregious threat to human rights? My Lords, I also wish to thank
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My Lords, I also wish to thank the noble Lord Alton of Liverpool for powerfully moving this debate
with such a comprehensive and passionate opening statement. It
passionate opening statement. It gives us the opportunity to note the tremendous positive impact of the convention, not only here in the UK,
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7 Lord Cashman (Non-affiliated)
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convention, not only here in the UK, but elsewhere. I also record my thanks to Professor Johnson of the University of Leeds for his advice
and support. The convention is a
vital aspect of life in the UK. It
is not just enunciated important principles but most of us agree with them such as the ability to speak
freely, to hold our own beliefs and be free from interference in our private life as others to have said, but rather it creates a tangible and
effective mechanism to allow all of
us to seek redress if we feel our human rights and fundamental freedoms have been violated.
The sad
fact is that it is this enforced ability of the convention, particularly by the European Court
of Human Rights, that has long caused hostility towards it.
Hostility from those who claim and I
now believe wrongly that the convention and the Strasbourg court are interfering with or even damaging life in the UK. Arguments
are not new. But I do not agree with them. The strength of the
convention, which is a living
instrument, is it allows individuals who are subject to unjustified interference in their rights and freedoms, to hold those in power to
account.
I support the Strasbourg
court and its work to interpret the convention in ways that maximise the
rights and freedoms of individuals and require governments to address violations of those rights and freedoms. I support the rights and
freedoms of all individuals. But a
particular issue that is close to my heart is the issue of protecting the rights and freedoms of lesbian, gay,
bisexual and transgender people. My Lords, my life has been changed for
the better because of this convention and the judgements from
the court.
The importance of the convention to LGBT people, indeed to
any minority, cannot be overstated.
It has positively transformed lives. Particularly those often shunned by
the mainstream. Turning to the judgements of the court, the noble and learned that Lord Etherton, who
sadly cannot be in his place today,
asked me to state specifically it was exactly because of the judgement ending the ban on gays serving in
the military in the UK that we were able to end centuries of prejudice in the armed services that blighted
so many lives.
The review and the recommendations are accepted by the previous government and this
government has begun to repair some
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Lord Cashman (Non-affiliated)
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I contend it is because of brave individuals in this case supported by Stonewall that had the optimist
by Stonewall that had the optimist to go through legal procedures that we've been able to right these wrongs, but we can do more. Currently because the UK has not
Currently because the UK has not signed up to protocol 12, people in the United Kingdom have less protection from discrimination under
the convention than in many other European nations, and this is an unacceptable situation. And it will
unacceptable situation.
And it will be highly appropriate if on this important anniversary the government
would commit to extending a protection of critical 12 to all individuals in the United Kingdom.
In conclusion, in these dark times, as we witness unimaginable human
rights atrocities on a grand scale in parts of our world, we need more
insurances and protections on human
rights, not fewer. Complacency is the enemy of March and many. Never more so in the field of human right
and Civil Liberties.
Long may the European Convention on Human Rights
speak to us, and especially to those both here in the United Kingdom and across the world who would diminish
the human rights of others.
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It's a pleasure to follow in my
Noble Friends footsteps. And like him I pay tribute to a very powerful
opening of Lord Alton. I've had the privilege and a long career at the
privilege and a long career at the bar of having taken 11 cases to the European Court of Human Rights and assisted in others, and I can assure the neighbour Lord Lilley that the word paradise is not one that
word paradise is not one that immediately comes to mind when addressing the 17 judges in that
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Lord Russell of Liverpool (Crossbench)
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court. In all the cases I've been involved in, they have been trade
involved in, they have been trade union cases, most of them concerning the right to strike. Your Lordships may wonder how the right to strike
may wonder how the right to strike could be protected by the European Convention. It's simple. The
Convention. It's simple. The European Court found that the right to strike was an inherent aspect of
to strike was an inherent aspect of freedom of association and the right to form and join a trade union for
to form and join a trade union for the protection of one's interests, which are spelt out in article 11.
And they derived it not via process
of a living instrument but simply in accordance with the usual bore on the interpretation of treaties,
article 31 of the Vienna Convention
on the Law of treaties. So the issue now on the right to strike is no
longer whether it exists or not or is protected by the convention, but the legitimacy of national
restrictions on it. Of course in the years which followed its
establishment in the European Court, nearly 1/4 of a century ago, many
cases have been won, many cases have been lost.
But recently there have
been some very disturbing decisions in the European court on the right to strike, upholding severe
restrictions on the right to strike. I mentioned without discussion
Barris, Turkey, hamper in Germany,
and Alma as in Turkey. Now whatever the reasons for this line of
authorities over the last couple of years, my instinct today is that
save in the most egregious cases, trade unions should avoid applications to the European Court
in strike cases. But unlike the
Noble Lord Lord Foulkes, the fact that I don't like the judgement or a
line of judgements does not detract
by one iota from my wholehearted support for the European can and the
whole vital edifice of international law, covering working life and
beyond.
As the Noble Lord Alton has
pointed out, this architecture was built on the corpses of tens of millions of people in the Second
World War. It begins really before the United Nations declaration with
the International Labour organisation declaration of
Philadelphia in 1944. Then the UN declaration in 1948, I will
convention 1949, convention 98 in 1950 and the European can also in
1950. That post-war momentum carried
on into the 60s with European charter on social charts, social rights in 1961.
The two
international covenants in 1966. These instruments are of course
14:21
Lord Hendy (Labour)
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autonomous, but the jurisdiction each generates informs that of the
others. So that there is a consistency in international human
consistency in international human rights standards. Neoliberalism may have ended the post-war consensus
have ended the post-war consensus and now more influential than Keynes, but legislators and judges
Keynes, but legislators and judges have a duty to uphold and deploy and be guided by these crucial
be guided by these crucial instruments of civilisation, and in
particular the European can.
14:21
Lord Balfe (Conservative)
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Is a pleasure to follow Lord Hendy and to take part in the debate
of Lord Alton, who gave a very
masterful introduction let me say. I served for six years on the Council
of Europe, and for two years I was a
chair of a small subcommittee, the enforcement of European Court of
Human Rights judgements. It was one of my trivial pursuits questions
which country had failed the most applications to bring them into
line? The answer of course I got was Russia.
It must be Turkey. No,
Russia. It must be Turkey. No,
actually it was Italy. So the court does a valuable job. And if I could just add to the number of dates
we've had, it was in 1966 Prime
Minister Wilson who accepted the jurisdiction of the court. So that's
also worth putting into the record because for 48 years, we've accepted
the jurisdiction of the court and in good times and bad we have managed
to survive.
I also had four years on
the Venice commission, which is another bit of international
cooperation attached to the court
the, and for two years -- the Council of Europe, and for two years
I was the chairman because a lot of the Venice commission references
were concerned with one aspect or another of human rights. So I would
also like the government to reaffirm its commitment. I'm sure it will because that's the way I read the
statements that have been made so far.
And I would also make two other
observations. Where on earth is our attorney general? We never see him.
He is the top law officer. I very much respect the noble Baroness who
is here to reply to the debate, but if ever there was a debate that needed the government's top lawyer,
it is this one. So I just make that
point in passing, and I would also say I fully agree with a number of
Noble Lords you have said that the judge is in the court and indeed the
Council of Europe itself has been busy with mission creep ever since
it was set up.
I recall when I went
to Strasbourg as an elected MEP in
1979, the late John soaking said to me, why do you want to join an
outfit with no power? I said to him,
John, put 435 politicians in a room, and they will soon find it. And if you look at the reforms of the
European union, for instance the
free movement and all the rest, it dates from that elected assembly.
Can I make one final point? The government recently said that one of
the problems we had was the, " The exportation of the European Court of Human Rights by the human rights legal industry." I really think the government needs to look at the
legal industry and we need to find a
way because the judgement that is often referred to about chicken nuggets is a gross distortion of the
work of the court, but it is something that may be the government
could address to try and see whether it is possible to issue some tighter
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guidance. The 75th anniversary of the European Convention on Human Rights
European Convention on Human Rights would have merited a celebration
14:25
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (Crossbench)
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would have merited a celebration even if the Noble Lord Lord Alton, that tireless champion of human rights worldwide had not given us an
occasion today to do so in this chamber. And for that, he deserves the utmost thanks. Three things
about the convention must surely not
be forgotten. The first is that while it is the work of collective responsibility if many European
parliamentarians and lawyers, a major input was made to it by the
British contingent, many of them Conservative members following the lead officer Winston Churchill who
played such an important role in the establishment and early years of the Council of Europe, and I'm saddened
to see that this involvement seems now to be more a cause of shame than
of pleasure.
Second, the convention
was drawn up in the dark shadowy as many Noble Lords have said of some of the worst crimes against
humanity, including the Holocaust. Crimes perpetrated in our own
continent by our own citizens. Its aim was to ensure protection for all our citizens against crimes
committed often by their own
governments. And thirdly, when at the end of the 1980s, the Cold War
drew to a close, the convention court was available to provide the
countries of Central and Eastern Europe, including at the time the Russian Federation and Belarus the freedoms and legal protection they had never previously enjoyed under
Communist Party rule.
Those are three achievements to be proud of
and treasure however irritated some may feel at some of its courts
rulings. I'm afraid I'm no lawyer, but my father was one, and he did teach me that hard cases make bad
law. What is lamentable is that now
after the 75 years of achievement, some politicians and some parties in
this country and some elsewhere in Europe are sharply critical of the
convention and its court. The main bone of contention is the impact on immigration cases.
As all our governments struggle with the
challenges of illegal migration and of asylum seekers. What is odd, and
I find myself hard to justify is that these challenges are often
quantitatively far greater and far more acute in other European countries than our own. But we seem
to be making quite a meal of it. Many critics here seem to be
blissfully unaware of the extent to which the European Convention on Human Rights underpins fundamentally
important parts of our constitutional structures and international agreements.
Most
prominently, the Good Friday Agreement's in Northern Ireland and
some of the most valuable parts of the trade and cooperation agreement between the UK and the EU in
particular, those dealing with justice and home affairs. These are
clearly additional reasons for all right across the political spectrum
to share the government's view that withdrawal cannot be contemplated. It would be good if more voices were
raised to that effect. One final point, our previous Prime Minister,
The Right Honourable Rishi Sunak got into the habit of calling the European Court of Human Rights a, "
Foreign court." That lamentable dog
whistle is not even accurate.
Since the court has had many admirable British judges down the years. But
in any case, the terminology of
speaking a foreign court is all too typical of populist politicians if many of the main parties. It would
be good if it can be taken out and
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buried on the 75th anniversary. Had like to thank Lord Bolton for
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Had like to thank Lord Bolton for arranging this debate and the
arranging this debate and the encouragement of many on human rights. I would like to declare my interest as an ambassador working
with the Georgetown Institute further peace and security on a number of these issues. And I would
number of these issues. And I would like to thank also those who were kind enough to send me briefings for
kind enough to send me briefings for today. I'm pleased to speak on the 75th anniversary of the European Convention on Human Rights, a treaty that has safeguarded the dignity and
freedom of over 700 million people since 1950.
The United Kingdom was
amongst the first to ratify in 1951 in the aftermath of World War II.
When nations were united to ensure tyranny and injustice never
tyranny and injustice never
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It is more than a legal
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It is more than a legal instrument. It is a moral compass with the right to life, security and justice. It protects against discrimination, torture and unlawful imprisonment. Ensuring equal
14:31
Baroness Goudie (Labour)
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imprisonment. Ensuring equal protection under the law. This has
Upholding the core mission, defending human dignity. The impact is particularly evident in Northern
Ireland, where the Good Friday Agreement enshrines convention. Ensuring human rights is devolved
legislation. This safeguard has reinforced peace and provided independent remedies where state
actions failed. Article 6 guarantees a fair trial. It has prevented
miscarriages of justice. Landmark cases such as the exoneration of the
Birmingham six and Guildford four. It illustrates how the convention has ratified ROMs and strengthened
public trust in the judicial system.
Among other cases, a survivor of
domestic abuse faced eviction after
government housing benefit reforms failed to consider the need for a protected panic room. Under a government-sponsored safety scheme. The European court ruled this
violated article 14. Which protects
against discrimination. Highlighting the role of the convention to make sure policies do not disproportionately harm vulnerable
disproportionately harm vulnerable
women. And in another case, in 2021, two Vietnamese children trafficked into forced labour were arrested and imprisoned, despite authorities
knowing that they were victims.
The European court found the UK had
breached article four, prohibition of slavery and article 6, the right to a fair trial. Emphasising victims of trafficking should be protected and not prosecuted. For these
reasons, we must commit to the
convention. Some have questioned whether to withdraw from the treaty. I caution against such thoughts. Doing so would undermine decades of
progress and expose vulnerable
populations to renewed injustice. The convention and its influence extends beyond national borders,
guarding reforms, human rights education, justice in post-conflict regions and modern societies.
The
Northern Ireland adherence to the
And it has safeguarded rights. It supports schools and communities and makes sure human rights are not abstract ideals but real,
enforceable protections. When governments are held to high standards, society as a whole benefits through fair trials, inclusive education and transparent
government. Let us renew our
commitment to this vital treaty. European Convention on Human Rights remains as relevant today as it was
a 75 years ago. A cornerstone of democracy, peace and justice. I urge
this House and all who value fairness and human dignity to stand in defence in ensuring that its
protection leads to its future and rights are upheld.
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord Alton for initiating this debate and for his terrific speech introducing
it. Perhaps I should declare an
14:34
Baroness Hale of Richmond (Crossbench)
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it. Perhaps I should declare an interest, my lords. I was privileged
to be amongst her Majesty's judges sitting on the Woolsack to hear the Queen's speech in 1997. I well
remember the quiver of excitement with which we are greeted the announcement that her government intended to legislate to incorporate
the convention into UK law. This was not all not just because of the intellectual excitement that a new set of legal toys would give us to
play with. It was because we were going to be given the tools to protect the fundamental rights of
some of the most vulnerable people in the country.
By then it had
become apparent UK law did not always live up to the convention
standards. Others of course have mentioned the vital part that the UK
played in setting up the council
tribunal, the Council of Europe, and the convention. But some describe this as the export theory of human rights. Foreigners needed them
because they did not have them. We didn't need them because we already
did. So the European Convention was seen as an embodiment of all the
rights UK people already enjoyed.
Unfortunately this was not always
the case. The UK was losing an
average of 18 cases per year in the European court before the implementation of the Human Rights Act. Turning convention rights into
UK law meant we judges could speak the same language and use the same
concepts. Our law was enormously enriched thereby and fewer cases
went to Strasbourg as a result. Very few succeeded. I should remind your
lordships that it was the UK that invented the principle of
constitutional interpretation that constitutional documents are a
living tree.
Capable of development in its natural limits. As others
have reminded us, the convention has done a lot of good for the
disadvantaged, vulnerable people such as children, families, people
with mental disorders and
disabilities, victims of crime, and people who suffer discrimination for no good reason but because of for example their sexuality, ethnicity
or the colour of their skin. It was the convention that insisted children whose parents were not
Were entitled to the same family
relationships as children whose parents were married.
It was the convention that insisted if the state wanted to remove children from their homes to protect them from
abuse or neglect, the process had to be fair to everybody involved. Both children and families. It was the convention that insisted people with
mental disorders and disabilities should not be deprived of their
liberty without proper safeguards and the opportunity to challenge it. The convention insisted there should be no discrimination in the
enjoyment of convention rights because of sex, race, colour or other characteristics such as
sexuality or disability.
The survivor of a same-sex relationship
should have the same rights to remain in a family home as did the survivor of an opposite sex
relationship. This is the essential purpose of all human rights
instruments. Whether contained in international treaties like the convention, or in the written
constitutions of almost every developed country in the world. To guard against infringing fundamental
rights simply because they belong to a group which the majority does not
like. As I said in a judgement given in this House when it was still the
highest court in the land, democracy values everyone equally.
Even if the
majority do not. Just to conclude, that was why it was especially shocking when this Parliament
legislated to exclude particular
groups of unpopular people from the protection of their human rights. Human rights are universal and
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should belong to everyone. My Lords, I declare an interest
14:39
Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords, I declare an interest as an adviser on AI policy and regulation. I start by thanking the
regulation. I start by thanking the noble Lord Alton for not only
securing this debate, but opening it with such an inspirational speech. And also to say what a pleasure it
is to follow the noble Baroness Lady Hale. I agree with every word she
said. The new Council of Europe
framework convention on artificial intelligence is another living demonstration that the principles of
the European Convention on Human Rights after 75 years are still
highly relevant.
AI Framework Convention does not seem to replace
the ECHR, but rather extend its protections into the digital age. AI permeates daily life. Making
decisions that affect privacy,
liberty and dignity. These systems can perpetuate discrimination, erode privacy and challenge fundamental freedoms in a way that demands new
protections. The AI Framework Convention is the first legally binding international instrument on AI, setting clear standards for risk
assessment, impact management, throughout the life-cycle of AI
systems. The Framework Convention principles require transparency and
oversight in ensuring that AI systems cannot operate as black boxes, making decisions affecting
lives without accountability.
They require parties to adopt specific
measures for identifying, assessing, preventing and mitigating risks
posed by systems and an impact assessment has been developed. The convention recognises in the age of
AI, protecting human rights requires more than individual remedies. It demands accessible, effective remedies for human rights violations, resulting from AI
systems. Rather than just reacting
to harms after they occur, the framework mandates consideration of society scale effects before AI
systems are deployed. I only wish having heard what its director said
on Tuesday that RAI Security Inst
had the same approach.
The Framework Convention was achieved through unprecedented consultation, involving not just the 46 member
states of the Council of Europe, but
also observer states, civil society, academia and industry representatives. Beyond European nations, it has attracted
signatories including Israel, the United States, albeit under the previous Administration, and most recently Japan and Canada in
February this year. My Lords, a framework is only as good as the
implementation and this brings me to my central question to the
government. What is your plan? The Ministry of Justice report on human rights on the government response to human rights judgements 2023-24 said
once the treaty is ratified and brought into effect in the UK, existing laws and measures to safeguard human rights from the risks of AI will be enhanced.
But
how will existing UK law be amended to align with the Framework
Convention? What extra resources and powers will be given to regulatory
bodies? What mechanisms will be put in place to monitor and assess the impact of AI systems on the
vulnerable groups? The convention offers tools to prevent such problems but only if we implement
effectively. As we mark 75 years of the European Convention on Human
Rights, we should remember that its
enduring strength lies not just in principles but in how nations gave those principles practical effect through domestic law and
institutions.
The UK has long been a leader in human rights and
technological innovation. I urged the government to present a comprehensive implementation plan
for the Framework Convention. Our response to this challenge will determine whether the digital age
enhances or erodes fundamental rights. I do not need to emphasise
the immense power of Big Tech. We need to see this at a time when we
rise to meet new challenges with the same vision and commitment that created the European Convention on
Human Rights 75 years ago.
14:43
Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
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My Lords, this is a timely debate and I am grateful to the noble Lord
Alton for securing it. I declare an interest as a member of Justice and indeed a past member of the council
for some years. My Lords, the European Convention on Human Rights
is a significant document. It embodies important values. But
equally important and legitimate criticisms can be made of the jurisprudence which the court has
generated. What the United Kingdom
should do now and in the future has
become a legitimate question.
The concerns which I shall express in this speech do not go to the convention itself. But to the
misapplication by the courts and the
implications for our constitution. The Strasbourg court has the task of defining convention rights in
practice. In performing that task, it has treated the convention as a
living instrument. That is of itself
not a term in the treaty. It has used that to alter the scope of rights, to give effect to changes in
social attitudes, matters which in the United Kingdom are generally best left to Parliament.
Let me give
some examples. In Italy, number three, the Strasbourg court declared
the statute barring serving prisoners from voting at elections to be incompatible with the
convention. The suggestion I suggest that the electoral franchise is not a matter in which the representatives of the general body
of citizens have any say seems stark. So to the recent
extraordinary climate change
decision against Switzerland, which the Swiss Parliament has not surprisingly voted to ignore.
Articles 8 and 10 have been used to
gag the press.
In another case, the
House of Lords excluding claims against the army because the victims had not been within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom. Strasbourg
overturned that decision. But I suggest the convention never intended it should apply to all warlike operations carried out by member states in foreign jurisdictions. Strasbourg has
expanded the range of the convention and interpreted it in ways well
and interpreted it in ways well
Issues of public policy involve issues of computer considerations for that that is the essence of government legislation.
It's what
our Parliament is there to decide. But where do we go? We are on the horns of a dilemma. The
constitutional effects of leaving the convention would be serious. The United Kingdom would likely be
expelled from the Council of Europe. That's not something which I seek to
endorse. Withdrawal would put the United Kingdom in breach of the Good Friday Agreement written into the
Northern Ireland Act 1998. None others would want that. The
convention is also baked into the United Kingdom EU trade and cooperation agreement, the TCA.
For
the United Kingdom to denounce the ECHR would be ground for the EU to
terminate the part of the TCA on law enforcement and judicial cooperation
in criminal matters. That would be a serious problem for us all. But something must be done. At a minimum
I suggest we must look again at the Human Rights Act, and should be
amended to mitigate the constitutional problems to which it
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gives rise. But that is for another speech. I too extend my congratulations
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I too extend my congratulations to Lord Alton for his truly magnificent opening. I declare an
magnificent opening. I declare an interest since I was a government lawyer for 34 years, and the ECHR
lawyer for 34 years, and the ECHR often presented legal obstacles for the government of the day, which I
the government of the day, which I was advising. So I understand therefore why some would like to withdraw from the ECHR. One of the
withdraw from the ECHR. One of the reasons often given as article 3, which as interpreted by Strasbourg,
prevents the UK from sending failed asylum seekers and others back to their countries of origin where
there are grounds for believing there is a risk they will be ill
treated.
However compelling, the public interest reasons for removing them. This is the non-formal
principle. I don't see how withdrawing from the ECHR would be the answer. Politically, it would
cause difficulties for the Belfast Agreement, which assumes continued
ECHR membership. And would risk ending as we've heard Criminal
14:49
Lord Carter of Haslemere (Crossbench)
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Justice Bill operation with the EU. Legally, in addition to many other international treaties which
international treaties which replicate the effect of article 3, we are bound by customary
we are bound by customary international law, arising from the constant and uniform practice of states, including the United Kingdom
states, including the United Kingdom of complying with the non-reform principle. At least where the risk of severe ill-treatment is
of severe ill-treatment is concerned. Leaving the ECHR so as to
concerned. Leaving the ECHR so as to try and get around article 3 would raise questions about our future compliance with customary
international law.
There is no doubt that the Strasbourg court has used
the living instrument doctrine in ways with which some contracting states may now disagree. The line of
case law, beginning with our skinny,
which was referred to on the extraterritorial effect of the convention is a good example. However, the answer to any perceived
undesirable effects of the living instrument doctrine is not to leave
the convention but to reform it by bringing together contracting states
to instigate reform as was done recently with practical 15 on
subsidiarity.
For example, where a specific piece of international law governs an issue, then perhaps the
more general ECHR either shouldn't apply all the Strasbourg court
should be required to take account of it. Which is a recognised
principle of international law. This
could be the case in respect of the Geneva conventions on armed conflict, the Paris agreement on climate change, and possibly even the refugee Convention where unlike
under article 3 as interpreted by Strasbourg, exceptions, narrow exceptions on grounds of security
can apply in certain circumstances.
In addition, we must ensure our rich
human rights heritage is preserved for future generations by a program
of civic and constitutional
education on human rights and the balance to be struck between such rights and individual responsibilities as recommended by
Sir Peter grosses independent review of the Human Rights Act in 2021. In
conclusion, as we look at the
increasing number of human rights abuses taking place around the world, which are totally blind to
the rule of law, the scales are now weighted strongly in favour of continued membership of the ECHR whilst seeking any reforms which
will bring the convention more in
line with what the contracting states may seek now in 2025.
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I am a member of the Parliamentary assembly of the
Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, and I'm glad to
begin my remarks by stating that fact. I do want to say to those who
fact. I do want to say to those who have spoken, Lord Alton, his speech
and Lady Hale, if they were tick boxes, I would put a tick in and then sit down because I don't want
then sit down because I don't want to say any more than that.
But in a debate recently in Strasbourg,
entitled rather quaintly I thought, multi-perspective itty in the field of journalism, which was all about
how journalists can see the same facts and report to entirely
different stories, I feel I want to apply it now to the House of Lords.
That people see the same facts and draw entirely different narratives
from them. We've heard, let me say, I've always felt a bit fragile in your Lordship's House since I have
no political experience.
And
certainly no legal experience. So consequently, I listen to the debate
in order to hear where things stand. And multi-perspective itty has marked this debate from the
political sphere I can say to the neighbour Lord Lilley, all I can say
is it such a relief to me that two rows behind you since the Earl of
Dundee whose remarks on the Council
of Europe and indeed about the convention are so positive, and he has such a distinction in Europe.
He
14:53
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Labour)
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is widely honoured for the contribution he is made to its
contribution he is made to its
affairs. So there is multi- perspectivity in my eye as I look across the chamber. Similarly I think in terms of the legal
think in terms of the legal argument. It's a ways been my contention, we had all this debates about immigration during the tenure
of the last government, and it was
of the last government, and it was always difficult for me as a non- lawyer to hear distinguished lawyers
on each side of the argument except from the government side and Lord Murray as they are, he was obliged by convention of course not to disclose what legal advice the
government was receiving, but he did a doughty job at the despatch box
but for all of that, those of us who stand listening, it can be very difficult to know how to make the
distinctions we need to make.
Now I've just joined the Constitution Committee, so the future of Britain
is under threat. But I do just want
to say that the rule of law is what we've set ourselves as our first
project. I had breakfast last week
at the Supreme Court. I may never have I been surrounded by so many stars in the galaxy as I was then. But I do make the point that the
United Nation's charter, Universal
Declaration of Human Rights and the European can all have as article 6
European can all have as article 6
access to a fair trial.
And I started my remarks on application by stipulating that the architecture of my entire life has been built on the
fact that when I was 5.5 years of age, a letter from my father's
solicitor to my mother indicated that because she was the guilty party in their relationship, she
should leave his clients, my father's House within one week and
take her children with her. My mother couldn't defend herself
against that because she didn't have two pennies to put together to get the legal counsel support and in any
case the law was different then.
And out of that little exchange in the
Supreme Court has come a magnificent response from one of the justices who specialises in access to
justice, brought out in 2016 a report just about how to deal with
the fact that where we are with people not having access to justice and wanting to have its
recommendations implemented all these years later, I look forward to the future. All those voices to
listen to. All those things, cases to weigh up. And have to say the
politicians should try a little harder and the lawyers should try a little harder to realise that not
everyone is one of them.
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Is a pleasure to follow the Noble Lord. I wish to say a few words about the relationship between judicial protection of human rights
14:56
Lord Trevethin and Oaksey (Crossbench)
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judicial protection of human rights and the rule of law, and in particular about the way in which
Parliament should respond to declarations of incompatibility in cases of constitutional importance.
In his classic work on the rule of law, Lord Bingham identified
article 8 guarantees not a defined outcome, but instead respect for private and family life, and subject to an important collocation which
Lord Bingham calls, " A community exception", a recognition that the rights of the individual may properly be restricted in the interest of community at large.
If
certain conditions are satisfied. When judges are asked to give effect
to and protect qualified rights such as those conferred by article 8,
they are now being asked to make an evaluation of the relevant competing considerations, which necessarily
involves moral and political analysis. The danger is obvious. It's highlighted by different
chapter in Lord Bingham's book entitled law, not discretion. There
he wrote, " Questions of legal right and liability should ordinarily be resolved by application of the law
and not the exercise of discretion." The balance is held or should be
held by the fundamental constitutional principle the
Parliamentary Sovereignty.
The Human Rights Act was carefully drafted in a way that reflects this. Judges are not able to strike down acts of
Parliament. Senior judges can make declarations of incompatibility. In
most such cases, Parliament properly reacts by amending the legislation in question. In accordance with the
court's judgement. It's not obliged
to do so and has not always done so. As a matter of procedure, following the making of the declaration of incompatibility, section 10 of the act permits the government to amend
legislation by remedial orders, which will normally go through on the not.
The act states importantly
that this form of fast tracked amendment is only permissible where
the Minister considers there are, " Compelling reasons for proceeding under this section". I tend then to
a current matter in which the government proposes to make a remedial orders of this nature. In short summary, the Supreme Court
held a few years ago the Adams case that Mr Adams's internment in the '70s had been unlawful because the
relevant certificate had been signed by the wrong minister. This rather
technical point, taken over 40 years late, opened in unappealing vista of many thousands of claims for
compensation.
A provision was introduced into the legacy act with the support of all major parties
which put colloquially, neutralised the Adams decision. In 2024, a
single judge of the Northern Ireland High Court made a declaration that this provision was incompatible with
the claimant's rights. That decision may be right, may well have been wrong. It's been the subject of
penetrating some I think lethal criticism in a policy exchange paper
written by Professor Ekins and Stephen Lourdes. The noble and learn it Lord Hope has provided, to
provide an illuminating preface in which he supported the views expressed and explain precisely why
it was inappropriate to respond to the declaration of incompatibility.
By making a remedial orders pursuant
to section 10. The government appealed the Northern Ireland decision. It's beyond question that
that appeal raised issues of fundamental constitutional
importance. In summer 2024, the new government withdrew the appeal. The
reasons for that decision are obscure. Now it is proposed that the remedial orders be made whose effect will be to remove the neutralising
provision. This can only as explained lawfully have been done if there is a compelling reason to use
the section 10 fast track procedure.
There is plainly no such compelling
reason. On the contrary, there are compelling reasons why primary
legislation should be amended in the usual way which will give Parliament
the power to consider the matter,
and if the honourable lady is able to update this House, that would be
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I I join I join others I join others in I join others in commending I join others in commending Lord Alton
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Alton I commend Lord Alton. He is a
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I commend Lord Alton. He is a true liberal. It is an honour to
true liberal. It is an honour to have the joint sharing of the committee on human rights. It is an
committee on human rights. It is an honour that he does so. I should record my interest on the register as vice president to my noble
as vice president to my noble friend, Baroness Kennedy, of the organisation, justice. We have heard
voices today calling for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights or at least seek to
change it or the Human Rights Act.
If we really -- do we really want our country to be bracketed with
countries like Russia, Belarus and
Hungary in ignoring human rights? I agree with the comments by Amnesty
that the conduct of current Russian government should be reminder to us
all of our good fortune to live in a country which for the main applies
to the conventions of course. The convention of court system that it
is attached to forms a core part of the framework of the international
alliance of states together with the Council of Europe, with the aims of human rights, democracy and the rule-of-law.
I commend noble Lord to
take part in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe,
which I have never had the honour to
do. I would point out to Lord Lilley, I'm grateful he is still in his place although I know he has other commitments, that Commonwealth
countries are not in the ECHR system because they are not, except Malta, Cyprus and the UK, located in
Europe.
15:03
Baroness Ludford (Liberal Democrat)
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The point is that they do not rely on an international agreement
to provide very good human rights to
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their citizens. Why should we be different? I think that might set up another mini debate and I'm going to not be
mini debate and I'm going to not be tempted to go down that road. For a major power such as ourselves, a
major power such as ourselves, a founder member of the system to
founder member of the system to leave the convention, would so division and confusion amongst liberal states just when we need
liberal states just when we need solidarity.
It would demonstrate
solidarity. It would demonstrate that the protection of individual rights against the excesses of state power is an unimportant and futile
endeavour. Our membership, along
with other liberal democracies in Europe, of the council and its convention, is part of the system of
regional security that is so vital now. It creates the preconditions
for peace through the promotion of democracy, rule of law and human rights and helped inoculate people and governments against the pernicious propaganda coming out of
Moscow and elsewhere.
The ECHR is not some remote, foreign product to
be resisted as an imposition. That
be resisted as an imposition. That
point was made by the noble Lord, I have forgotten who. The UK has
played a pivotal role in not only creating, but shaping the ECHR. Several of the lawyers involved,
like Lord Alton, seem to come from
Merseyside. That must be a source of
human rights inspiration. Our judges continue to contribute to the future of convention system and the wider protection of human rights.
I hope
the government will highlight the UK's role and work to combat
negative rhetoric, misrepresentation
and misunderstanding. The UK's commitment to the ECHR are more widely to the rule-of-law, also
helps not only boost our
international reputation, but also our attractiveness to do business,
by ensuring that individual and
business rights are protected. This commitment to international rule- of-law underpins global economic competitiveness and attractiveness as a destination for investment. The
Comment Comment on Comment on it Comment on it without Comment on it without being
discourteous.
's declaration that
Trump's effect may be positive in promoting a realignment of ideas was a jolt because I see nothing positive coming from President
positive coming from President
Trump. One of the positive note is that he thought was a result of President Trump was that the ECHR
should be rewritten. He did not say how, but if he meant in the way that Lord Carter referred to, that might be sensible. I think we are all open
to any useful reforms. But where
Lord Hague confused me was that he
stressed these actions of Trump are
a reminder that an effective democratic state is part of a moral order in which its policies should be anchored.
Its reach and respect
in the world rely on being able to distinguish right from wrong. That the abuse of great power brings
resistance and rejection. I thoroughly agree with the noble Lord in those remarks. My contention
would be that far from rewriting the
ECHR is a reaction to President Trump, we should treasure it all the more as guarding against the kind of developments we are sadly seeing in
developments we are sadly seeing in
the United States. The Human Rights Act brought rights home, it was one
of the products of political and between Labour and the Liberal
Democrats.
I am very proud of that and other products. I was delighted
to hear Baroness Hale stress the
value of the Human Rights Act. We have heard that applications to
Strasbourg have been on a general downward trend over the last 10 years. The Human Rights Act has
contributed to that because a lot of those cases have not gone to
Strasbourg because they have been settled domestically. In 2024, there were only three cases against the UK
heard by the court.
I believe only one found a violation. The victim
was the daily mail. On freedom of expression case. There were no
interim measures, injunctions,
issued against the UK last year. This is a testament to the strength of our national system of human rights protections. One of the
reasons for the harmonious state of affairs is a productive dialogue has taken place between Strasbourg and UK courts to deal with any tensions or disagreements. This was
particularly confirmed in the
remarks of Lord Neuberger, as well
as Lady Hale.
For some people, no
Bill of Rights, whether the European Convention or any other, will be acceptable in the UK BARS system of
political constitution and Parliamentary Sovereignty. These
arguments are presented as concerns about democracy and democratic accountability, however they almost always ending arguments for
centralising power in the executive. A lot of the point of human rights
challenges is to call the executive
to account. References to the court going to far as a reason to leave
the convention system more generally are almost always based on choosing to emphasise the occasional controversial case where the Speaker
disagrees on the outcome.
So, I
would like to draw towards an end in emphasising, as the noble Lord did,
that any upset to our relationship with the ECHR would affect the
Belfast/Good Friday Agreement, which is absolutely crucial instrument.
Under that agreement UK Government committed to the incorporation of the convention into Northern Irish
law. Proposes to legislate for the continued application of the convention into northern Irish law,
while withdrawing the UK as a whole from the convention are
fundamentally flawed and there's no practical way of legislating for
partial implementation.
In addition, the UK is obliged under the Windsor
Framework to observe a non- diminution of rights in the
Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. There are also commitments in the trade
cooperation agreement to our
continued addition to the ECHR. Any damage to human rights observance could imperil the renewal crucial to
business and law-enforcement
business and law-enforcement
corporations with the EU. We should celebrate our great achievement of creating and sustaining the European courts. To five years.
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It is a pleasure to speak for these ventures in these debates,
these ventures in these debates, Lord Altman needs no introduction. When I grew up in Liverpool, I do
When I grew up in Liverpool, I do not know if in Baroness Ludford's eyes that makes me a human rights
lawyer, he was campaigning for the rights of Jews and Christians in the
rights of Jews and Christians in the USSR to practice religion. I am grateful for today's debate, we have
heard fine speeches, some of which
relied on the human rights to push the boundaries of the advisory time limits.
Today's debate is not about
human rights per se. It is about the European Convention on Human Rights. The two are not the same. To make the obvious point, we had human
rights in this country before we signed the European Convention on
Human Rights. Many countries in this world which are not signatories to that convention still have and
champion human rights. But the European Convention on Human Rights
has a long history and we played a
central in its inception.
We were one of the original signatories, we also helped to draft it. In 1951,
two important things happened in the field of human rights in this
country. We, as a state, signed the European Convention on Human Rights.
European Convention on Human Rights.
And Lord Bolton was born. -- Lord Alton. We were one of the first
states to ratify the convention and we have also accepted the
jurisdiction of the Strasbourg court, the European Court of Human Rights. I'm proud of our role in building the more just future for
Europe from which we all benefit today.
I mention the date because they are important for context and
background. When the ECHR was being drafted, Europe was still recovering
from the horrors and destruction of the Second World War. It was only two years after the Nuremberg trials
that in 1948 the United Nations promulgated is Universal Declaration
of Human Rights, from which the
ECHR's founding principles flowed. I suggest it is appropriate that on
the annunciator, by now, we have the anniversary of the ECHR and also the
Holocaust memorial bill.
I want to move from the history to the ECHR
today. I agree with a lot of what
Lord Lily said about the history. There is a sometimes about the
history. It is not all as people it was. But let me move to today's
That the ECHR has led to legal
advances. It has enabled judges to make innovative and expansive rulings in the fields of sexual equality, privacy and personal
autonomy. But we have to accept that
the approach of the ECHR is to entrust such lawmaking to the
Strasbourg court, which is accountable to no one.
While that might be good if you prefer his decisions to those which governments
might otherwise have made, this
creates an obvious conflict between Parliamentary democracy and an unelected court, especially when that court has gone on to adopt what
I would suggest to be a very expensive interpretation of the
convention, as my noble friend explained. Those conflicts arrange
for an wide and far beyond the scope of the speech. You can get a sense
of the issue from an analysis of 25 leading cases from that court which have been analysed in an
illuminating paper published by Policy Exchange.
It is important to
appreciate that that is not a bug,
it is a feature. The lack of accountability of the European Court of Human Rights was precisely what
it made it appealing to those that set it up in the aftermath of fascism and Nazism. They say the -- saw the court providing a check
unelected governments that might otherwise abuse their power. I understand that desire and share it
to an extent, but there are limits. I wonder if last year's decision of
the courts and the Swiss climate change case showed we have reached those limits and perhaps gone
beyond.
In 2021, the Swiss electorate rejected in a referendum
an act of the Swiss parliament that call for 30 percent reduction in emissions from 1990 levels by 2030.
That act rejected by the electorate was replaced by an act which
provided for a staged reduction by 2050. That was approved by the Swiss
There is nothing in the convention
about public health and there's no mention of climate change but that
didn't stand in the way of the Strasbourg court which held that
15:17
Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Conservative)
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there was a requirement to take
effective measures to combat climate change and those measures had to be those consistent with the views of the UN governmental panel on climate
the UN governmental panel on climate change. That is the answer to the often made challenge, first made
today by Baroness Kennedy, which rates don't you like? I like all of them is drafted, not all of them as interpreted expensively. And so the
interpreted expensively. And so the court held in that case that Swiss law was inconsistent with the Convention.
What about the fact that
the Swiss people in their parliament
had twice had a say in referenda? Record said this, democracy cannot be reduced to the will of the majority of the electorate and elected representatives in disregard
of the requirements of the rule of law. I will give way to know one
when it comes to the rule of law. But the rule of law does not require judges to have a roving commission
over entire areas of contested and
contestable national public policy in complete disregard of the expressed wishes of both Parliament
and the people.
And as our judges on the court have been mentioned, I
should as -- add that the UK judge retained descent to this decision which requires careful reading. The
question is not whether the decision
is right or wrong on the facts. It's not about whether climate change is real. It is. Or about whether we
should take it seriously. We should. It is about whether we should have
such issues in a democracy. In cases where you have contested issues of public policy and you have to
balance a lot of factors, the effect of the court's decision is that these arrangements are aggregated
only to the court, not only now most
of the Swiss change their statute but they must also take steps to
ensure that that changed statute is not itself rejected in a referendum
by voters.
To pick up noble Lady Baroness Ludford's point, this does not centralise power in the
executive. Centralises power in a court contrary to the express wishes in that case of both the parliament
and the people. Now, I suggest, is
consistent with the rule of law, that one of the principles of the rule of law is that it must be stable, clear, publicly accessible
and not retrospective, and the decision of the Strasbourg court in that case is none of those things.
that case is none of those things.
As the UK judge said in his dissent, his dissent was more of a fundamental nature. Goes to the heart of the role of the court
within the convention system and he ended with this : I fear that in this judgement, the majority has gone beyond what is legitimate and
personas are permissible for this court to do so -- and permissible
for this court to do. We believe in human rights not because we have concerns about human rights. Our
party has made a powerful and lasting contribution to law and
justice in Europe and beyond.
We remain committed to those values of law and justice but we need to
recognise that the Europe that gave birth to the Convention is a Europe of the past. We do need new
international or improved agreements, as Lord Carter
identified, that are fit for the prevalent -- present challenges we face inappropriate for those of the
future. I know over the past couple of years we've had a long and heated
debate on immigration policy. The fact is that over the past years, our ability to manage immigration
has been hindered by interpretations of international laws, including
these -- including the ECHR.
I will
not be the only one who has had a little wry smile over the past month of hearing echoes of what I used to say from that dispatch box repeated
in press summaries from Number 10. Things look different when you are in government, as I think the party
opposite is now finding. And I accept that press reporting of judgements is often exaggerated and
sometimes plain wrong, but those who deny that there is a problem at all
are also wrong. And that is why we in the other place tabled an
amendment to the bill that would
disable it from immigration matters.
It is important that Parliament and
ministers have effective control over our borders. Let me end on a
note where we will all agree. In a world where the threat of
totalitarianism remains, we must not disavow our moral duty to promote justice, and that principle stand is
entirely compatible with work perhaps across the house to ensure that our international agreements remain appropriate for the
challenges of today and the future. I again congratulate Lord Alton for
initiating this debate and wish him many more years of fighting in good health for the causes close to his
heart both in this house and also
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outside it. I would like to thank the noble
15:22
Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I would like to thank the noble Lord for his speech. It's good to see him. Are very sorry to have
heard of the death of his father recently. I enjoyed his speech very
much. I did not agree with some of it but he is always entertaining. I
would gently say on the issue of immigration, about which I have argued with very many ministers over the 14 years we've enjoyed our time
the 14 years we've enjoyed our time
in opposition, that the last government completely lost control
of the system, they had an expansive situation with Rwanda.
I do wonder
what some of the ministers were doing while they were making speeches about immigration but doing
very little to change the problem. What he says about ECHR may or may not be right but there are so many
things that could have been gotten right that were not. We have plenty
to do before we get to ECHR reform
before tackling immigration. I would like to thank Lord Alton. He has inspired many people inside and
outside of this chamber over many
many years -- over very many years.
He set out his argument most convincingly and I thank him for
securing this debate. I'm going to begin by reinforcing Lord Lilley's assertion that we start with
history. Yes, we do. Not as far back
as the Bishop of Saint Albans with the 10 Commandments, but I will begin with March Yes, we do. Not as
far back as the Bishop of Saint Albans with the 10 Commandments, but I will begin with March 1951, when the UK became the first country to
ratify the European Convention on Human Rights or the ECHR, signed in Rome on 4 November, 1950, came into
force in the United Kingdom in 1953.
And while some commentators would have us believe that the ECHR is
something that was imposed on us and willingly by our neighbours, this is not the case. -- Unwillingly. In response to the horrors of the
Second World War that involved -- engulfed the world for a generation,
the Council of Europe was created. The convention was the first order
of business. Indeed, until recently
the Lord Speaker -- recently the Lord Speaker and many colleagues
commemorated the occasion. I should like to recognise the contribution
made by members of both houses who serve on the delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe under the able
Council of Europe under the able
chairmanship of the noble Lord law
Turk -- Lord Turk.
Pioneering Labour
Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevan was one of the first people involved.
Indeed, government is proud of our
role in the establishment of the
European Convention on Human Rights. That spans everything from forming an important pillar of the devolution settlement to underpinning guarantees in the
Belfast Good Friday Agreement committee supporting the safety and
security of British citizens by facilitating cross-border law enforcement and judicial cooperation
in the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Yet, there is so much of the -- of what -- yet so much of
what the ECHR does goes unnoticed.
Today, noble Lords have shown a light on some of the ways in which
it has made a difference in the lives of people across the country for decades. You have reminded us of some of those stories. Baroness Chalker Batty explained movingly
about the impact of the convention on victims of sexual violence.
Baroness Kennedy and Baroness
Ludford reminded us how central the ECHR is to stability in Northern Ireland. Lord Rook spoke of freedom
of religion and belief. Lord Cashman spoke about how the ECHR has literally changed his life.
Lord
Hendy reminded us of the convention on, the impact of the convention on
trade union activity. We also
reconsidered corporal punishment for children and paved the way for the
eventual abolition of corporal
punishment in all state and private schools in the UK. The status of homosexuality in Northern Ireland,
may homosexual acts were a crime in Northern Ireland until 1982. A human rights case brought to the ECHR by a
gay activist from Belfast argued that the criminal law in Northern Ireland amounted to an unjustified
interference with his right to respect for his private life.
It was rightly decriminalise. Then there is
the duty on states to protect the
right to life. The families of the 1997 football fans who lost their lives in the 1989 Hillsborough
disaster relied on that. To obtain a new inquest that concluded that the fans were unlawfully killed as they
campaigned for the truth. Take lifting the ban on LGBTQ people
joining the military. Following a
landmark case in 2000 brought by two British servicemen who were dismissed from the army simply for
being gay.
The law changed allowing members of the Armed Forces to be
open about their sexuality. And then there is the protection of religious belief in the workplace. When an employee of British Airways who wore
a small cross around her neck as a sign of her religious faith was
suspended from work without pay because the cross violated its uniform policy. Yet in 2013, the
ECHR ruled that this was an unreasonable interference with this woman's right to freedom of
religion, leading to a change in relevant standards in the UK.
Indeed, the ECHR continues to
provide protections to the rights of British citizens at home and abroad.
Only last month, the court ruled that the Cypriot authorities had failed a British woman who had
alleged that she suffered horrific sexual violence in Cyprus in 2019.
She found there was a lack of effective investigation and a
violation of her right to respect a private family life. The stories remind us of the ways in which our
country and people have benefited from the protection of the European Court of human rights over the
years.
As well as applying the law consistently, and working in
partnership with others well beyond our continent as well, it's
important that we... Sadly, someone
to pay the picture of a UK harassed
European Convention on Human Rights. The UK has one of the lowest rates of applications to the court per million inhabitants, as Lord Thomas
said, and that last year, there is only one adverse judgement given, finding one violation against the
UK. The Human Rights Act which a Labour government put in place gives effective -- gives effect to ECHR in
UK law.
It was wonderful to hear
Baroness help us macro -- Baroness Hale. No organisation is perfect, of course. Either the ECHR nor the
European Court of Human Rights are static or frozen in time. The ECHR
is a living instrument that evolves in response to challenges and
changing times. The European Court
of Human Rights has shown itself is open to change. During the UK presidency in 2012, Council of Europe member state adopted a
substantial package of reform measures and only last year, the European Court of Human Rights introduced more fairness and
accountability into their approach to interim measures following consultation with member states as
well.
And there is one accepted principle of dialogue between national courts and the European
Court of Human Rights through which the UK continues to influence the
Our respect for the rule of law is profound, as we are demonstrating
through our actions. That is more important than ever at a time where
we have been dealt a stark reminder of what is at stake for all of us now. The Earl of Dundee asked about
the developments and education. I can confirm our commitment and
support along the lines of his comments and also about partnerships
and education and it was a helpful question he put.
Lord Clement-Jones
invited me to talk about a regulation. He will forgive me if I
do not, but I am sure a DSIT Minister will be along very shortly unhappy to take his questions on
that. There are things we all need for a good life and they are
security, prosperity, equality, human rights and the rule of law.
I'm afraid I differ with Lord Faulks but I agree with many lords,
including Lord Griffiths, Baroness Ludford, Lord Carter, Lord Balfe,
Ludford, Lord Carter, Lord Balfe,
Lord Hannay, Lord Neuberger.
As my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister, has said, and as Lord Jay
said we should, this government is firmly committed to the European Convention on Human Rights and we
will never leave it. As my right honourable friend, the Foreign Secretary, said, quoting former Labour Foreign Secretary, Robin
Cook, it is self-evident where the world where every individual's rights is respected as a world that
will be more peaceful, and where
Britain would be more prosperous and more secure. As we reset and deepen our relationships with friends
across Europe and beyond, to help us face the challenges and opportunities of our times in the 75th year of the European Convention
on Human Rights, we welcome this chance to reflect on all we have achieved and to look forward to what
achieved and to look forward to what
needs to come next.
We are a government with a progressive, realistic outlook. Meeting the world as it is, working towards how we
want it to be in the months and years ahead. We look forward to the celebrations in Strasbourg in
November.
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The noble Lord referred to his childhood when I was his family's constituency Member of Parliament in
constituency Member of Parliament in Liverpool. Lady Chapman referred to something which deeply affected me
something which deeply affected me during my time as Member of Parliament, I never expected to have
Parliament, I never expected to have to visit families whose children had died at a football match as they had
done at Hillsborough. I'm enormously grateful to the effect of the European Convention has had in
European Convention has had in helping to shift the law and the government for the commitment it gave at the general election to
enact the so-called Hillsborough law.
It is an issue the Joint Committee on Human Rights engaged
with and we recently published during correspondence between the
committee and the government on the duty of candour. It is a good example of how events that take place in our own jurisdiction, have
implications elsewhere, how they can be effected. From jurisdiction to
jurisdiction, person-to-person. Some
kind words have been said by noble Lords in their remarks today, not least about my longevity. I'm
grateful to Lord Olsen and Lord Brooke, he said he hoped one day to
grow up to be like me.
I do not wish
that on him or anybody else. Lord Griffiths, for whom I have fondness and admiration, made a very good
speech about why we should keep our feet firmly on the ground and never
lose sight of the human impact of the decisions we make. He told us he had been to the Supreme Court and
felt he had been surrounded by stars in the galaxy, but you do not need
to go all the way to the Supreme Court to feel as though you are surrounded by stars in the galaxy.
I
would like to pay tribute to some distinguished and celebrated peers who have spoken in today's debate.
These have been wise voices. I think we would be foolish not to study
carefully what has been sent to us
from all sides of the argument. This is a debate that has been worthy of the anniversary and worthy of your
Lordship House. Reference has been made to article 3, Lord Carter was right, even if you did not have the
ECHR, the 1951 Convention on the treatment of refugees would still be
in place.
We have also been cautioned about the dangers of
building a whole argument on one or two cases and so-called chicken
nugget cases. Go away and read
Joshua Rosenberg's article this week
where he reminds as a lower tier tribunal got it wrong and an upper tier tribunal got it right. This
will not prevent the deportation of someone who may be here illegally and therefore should not be resident
in the United Kingdom. Let's not build a case for the total deconstruction on cases like that.
It was the noble Lord who reminded
us that hard cases make bad law. When you start to unravel and disrupt, it carries consequences.
There is not an argument against
reform. I take the arguments made by
Conservative benches today, it is not a static instrument, things like this was case are things for the Joint Committee on Human Rights to
go back and take evidence over. I hope the noble Lord and I can agree on that and look at ways.
Find that kind of judgement. Whether or not we
are going too far in some circumstances, it should not become an argument for the destruction of
the Convention on human rights, confronted in our own generation by a new breed of dictators who
threaten the foundations of democracy. It would be sheer defeatism and an act of vandalism to
abandon the legacy which has been entrusted to us. I would like to
renew my thanks to everyone who has
participated in today's debate.
Enclosing this crossbench debate, marking the 70th anniversary of the
European Convention on Human Rights.
I thank all of those who have made such excellent contributions in your Lordship's House.
15:38
Royal Assent: Finance Act 2025
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The question is this motion be agreed to. As many as are of that
opinion, say, "Content." Of the contrary, "Not content." The
contents have it. I have to notify the House in accordance with the Royal assent act 1967 that the king has signified his Royal assent to
the following act, the Finance act. We will now have a short break
15:39
Short debate: Steps the government have taken to examine the impact of COVID-19 restrictions on people’s ongoing bereavement
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Question Question four Question four short
Question four short debate, Question four short debate, support
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for the COVID-19 bereaved. I beg leave to stand the question dash I guess the question standing
dash I guess the question standing in my name on the order paper. I declare my interest as the former
15:40
The Lord Bishop of London (Bishops)
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declare my interest as the former chair of the UK commission on bereavement and others set out on the register. Though we are small in
number, I'm grateful for the opportunity to hold this debate. I'm aware that reflection on the impact
of COVID-19 is no longer a particularly attractive subject, but
I feel strongly that the impact of this world changing event will continue to be felt in the years to come. In our nation's living memory
there has not been a moment in which so many of us have experienced
bereavement at the same time.
Over
the course of 2020 and 2021 alone,
there was an additional 750,000 deaths than would ordinarily be expected based on the previous five
expected based on the previous five
year period. By the end of -- 2022, an estimated 17,000 children and young people in the UK had been
bereaved of their parent or primary caregiver through the deaths
associated with the pandemic. On Sunday, 9 March, we marked five years since the start of the pandemic with a day of reflection,
in which communities up and down the country remembered our national and personal loss.
Many of these wounds
are still raw and the BBC reported
that sobbing could be heard at the
National COVID Memorial Wall. I would like to discuss the disruption to bereavement during the pandemic and the long-term impact of restricted bereavement. UK
Commission on Bereavement was
launched in June 2021 and in October 2022, produce our report, bereavement is everyone's business. The report identified a number of
key ways that the pandemic disrupted
the grieving process of those bereaved.
Firstly, funerals, restrictions meant there were delays, restrictions on numbers, social distancing of attendees and changes to collective end of life
rituals, weights, embalming of bodies at home and viewing was not
possible. Not everyone's experience
was the same. Many religious and ethnic minority groups faced more significant barriers to organising funerals. Many people reported that
finding funeral directors or bereavement organisations with
culturally appropriate funeral services was difficult and not being
able to participate in usual rituals prevented them from grieving
properly.
Being able to access a meaningful and affordable funeral was already a challenge before the
pandemic and remains so afterwards.
According to the cost of dying report 2025, the average cost of a
simple funeral was £4285, a rise of
134 percent since data collection began in 2004. They also found one third of people said the cost-of-
living crisis had impacted on how
the organised a funeral. Almost half said that paying for a funeral had impacted on their mental health.
Funeral support, down to earth, run
by social action, notes there is a complex relationship that exists
between someone's grief and they're paying for a funeral. If somebody gets into debt doing so, that debt
can last for years and has a profound impact on somebody's feelings around their bereavement. I
had serious concern that people's ability to access the funeral they
like is financially determined stop secondly, the most common experience of social isolation and loneliness. The significant part of the
bereavement process for many is being with family and friends to
support one another in grief.
But 74 percent of adults who were briefed during the pandemic said they experienced social isolation and
loneliness after the death of a
loved one. Having contact with the dying person at the end of life. This was heavily restricted, as so
many people died in hospital. Some
said to the commission that knowing that their loved one was alone in hospital before they died was the hardest part of the bereavement
process at the time. Those were the
impact we saw in our work in 2022.
Further work has been undertaken since then and there's more to
learn. New research in 2023 examined
the longer-term impact of grief among those who had lost loved ones during the pandemic. And found that two years after their bereavement, 29 percent of people met the
criteria for prolonged grief disorder. In particular, the social isolation and loneliness in early bereavement contributed to higher
levels of prolonged grief symptoms. According to another study of prolonged grief disorder during COVID-19, there might be a detrimental long-term psychological outcome for those bereaved
individuals regardless of the cause
We do not yet fully understand this
but there is an -- a growing body of evidence detailing the effects on
bereaved people and how accessing support can have on their symptoms.
We should not forget those with long COVID who grieve the last of who
they were before they contracted the virus. It's important we support the
ongoing impact in this area as well. Following the recommendations of the Bereavement Commission, there has
been much progress which we can commend and this has been worked on by different governments, including the previous Minister, noble Lord
Lord marking. In the Employment Rights Bill, we were glad to see the
introduction of a new right to bereavement leave for people who have lost a close relative.
The
government is also introducing the faculty, facility for people to register a death online and the
Department for Education in England has consulted on proposals to include grief education in the
curriculum. On the housing front, the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government has an
amendment to the Renters' Rights Bill to prevent the use of ground
seven as a ground for eviction. That is the death of a tenant. This
increases housing security for
bereaved tenants in the private rented sector, which is very welcome.
However, there is more that can be done to support bereaved
people. One of the initial recommendations from the UK CB report was for the government to establish and deliver a cross
departmental strategy for bereavement. It is clear that
bereavement and surrounding issues are multifaceted and in need of cross government working. Strategy
could be a useful way to give this
issue the attention it deserves. The cross governmental working group was established in 2021 and is a useful
space for discussing bereavement - related issues but there must be much more of a focus if we really are going to support relieved
people.
There is also the need for a wider investment in bereavement
services, especially for Black, Asian and minority ethnic
communities and others who have been demonstrated to be properly served.
This is particularly significant, given some of the communities experiencing much heavier loss than others during the pandemic,
especially in London. If the findings I mentioned earlier proved true, this may mean that some communities are adversely affected
by symptoms of grief more than
others and this leads to poor mental
ill-health.
Finally, it is healthy
and good for us as a society to talk
about death. However, we are so poor at doing it. I'm not going to talk about the substance of the assisted
dying debate here but it has prompted us as a nation to talk about death and dying. It is still
far from a normalised topic for many of us. This is reflected in our planning for and focus on
bereavement, both nationally and perhaps personally. My own experiences as the cancer nurse and
priest means that I have sat with people in the final hours of their
lives and with people who have come to terms with the loss of loved ones.
To grieve as a universal
experience and part of what it is to be human. My faith prompts me to
believe that our feelings and our relationships and the grief that comes when we lose somebody who is
important to us is important. These are experiences and emotions that
must be tended to and it is the role of all of us, including the state, to do so. I am grateful to Your Lordships' House for providing the
time for this debate, which I believe is still very important.
I wonder whether the noble Lady the
Minister would agree to meet with me to discuss this further and perhaps
meet with some of the -- Mikey colleagues in the bereavement policy space. I hope that the national Day
of Reflection will not confine our thinking and supporting grieving
people through a future crisis or as a thing of the past. I hope that we
will take this opportunity to cast a renewed focus on bereavement because it remains everyone's business.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I congratulate the Bishop of London for securing that this
London for securing that this important debate and fire excellent
important debate and fire excellent introduction. I'm going to divide my time into two areas. Firstly,
time into two areas. Firstly, bereavement support to people since but not only because of COVID and
but not only because of COVID and
15:50
Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)
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secondly on the effect of covert --
COVID. Saying goodbye to a loved one
on a phone or a tablet well a nurse was holding it up in hospital was extremely hard. Limited numbers of
people being permitted to be at the funeral. I have to say, the one
benefit has been Zoom funerals because if he couldn't be there in
person, it is now the normal way to join if you cannot be there in
person, which is a normal part of the grieving process.
New styles of
funerals. The Right Reverend Prelate referred to the cost of funerals. I'm concerned about the advertisements for extremely cheap
funerals that are constantly on TV at the moment and I noticed they are just beginning to slightly qualify
what is on offer. But people do not
understand what is on offer. And I just wonder, first of all, if we need to address the issue about
advertising regulation for these because people often buy in advance
and then discover that there is literally no service are gathering whatsoever.
And there is no way that
they can mark the cremation of the
person either. However, for some people it might be the right thing. I do know that many funeral
directors are frustrated because they also are able to offer cheaper funerals than most people imagine. The average price was quoted earlier
on but they are certainly trying to make sure they can provide its. The other big issue is the British style
of morning, if I can put it that
way.
-- mourning. Restraint would be an understatement. The cultural differences within our communities
and in Europe. The first open coffin
funeral one -- I went to was a Latvian funeral of a relative.
Everyone went up to kiss the person in the coffin. I was 20 and I was horrified because it is not within
our culture. One of the things with
COVID was that these cultural ways of saying goodbye were even more inappropriate during COVID. COVID removed our ability to mourn. I
therefore welcome the growth of grief Cafe is where people can come together to talk about preparing for
grief, recognising that somebody is going to die but also after the night, just having a safe space
where people come together in a safe and relaxed environment and chat about death and how debt is
affecting them.
But I also want to
mark the role of religious leaders in supporting families and friends
and the individual on that journey to death and afterwards. That was one of the hardest things that we
lost three COVID. Being on the end
of a phone was extremely difficult. Unless the weather was fine and you could have a meeting outside about
it. It did transform the experience, and not in a good way. I also want to talk about how grief affects
children.
That journey of grief and saying farewell is very different,
frankly, to anybody under about 16.
We fostered two children of a friend of ours. The chaplain at the hospice
guided them, aged 10 and 12, and
ourselves in what was going to happen and they encouraged us to take the children to see their
mother after she had died when a natural reaction would have been not to do that, but it was the right
thing to do because it helps them and they were happy to do it.
It
helps them to recognise that she was gone forever. But the support we got from our faith leaders really made
an enormous difference and our wider church community as well. Turning to
the consequences of COVID. I was
asked was person -- I was a spokesperson for the first period of
COVID. The most shocking thing that happened was that certain doctors
abused the DNA CBR decision-making so never again must there be a
patient, must these be taken without something on a patient's file showing they have explicitly been
part of the decision-making, even if it is not their decision or if they
don't have capacity that their attorney or next of kin have also
been part of it.
It was particularly unfortunate that many elderly people with dementia and also those with
learning disability were given DNA CBR's without their and their
families knowledge. To those who lost people who were on the front line during COVID who did not have
proper PPE, can the Minister say if the government will follow the recommendations in the first report
of the COVID-19 enquiry of pandemic
preparedness and ensure that we can protect frontline staff when, not
if, the next pandemic arrives.
And I add to that, the frontline staff who
survived severe COVID who have been medically retired and who are now
fighting the NHS who say that because these well loved staff who
served for many years and are
important to NHS, they could not confirm when the court COVID and for that reason, they are not entitled to compensation. My Lords, this is
unjust. I know two people that has affected really badly. They were
wearing PPE made of black plastic
bags and both of them put COVID within those first three weeks.
Those who died very early on, pre-
vaccination, were overrepresented by those described, I'm sure you will
remember it, is clinically vulnerable. I am one of that number. I survived COVID. They are still
overrepresented in deaths today, even though the number of COVID debts is much lower. This winter, we
have seen a large number of deaths of flu and pneumonia.The problem is that investors past and present tell
us that COVID is over. But it is
not. A consequence of that, partly
long COVID, but also goes to the decisions about whether COVID is
decisions about whether COVID is
airborne or not.
We are told it is not airborne transmitted. The main transmission is through contact with droplets. Now the WHO disagrees with
this and changed its definition two years ago because why, they realise that the size of the virus was small
enough to mean that it is airborne. And that is important because that requires masks and ventilation for
those who might be at risk. So, WHO says we should consider using masks.
I'd love us to get to a stage of
Japan and China were if you have a bad cold and you're going on the underground, people just put a mask on.
It's not been in our culture.
But that would help people who remain at home because they are so clinically vulnerable they do not feel safe and going out. But also,
it would reduce transmission of various viruses at schools. At my
regular hospital, during lockdown,
they devised a very cheap and effective ventilator which is now available in every single word. They
available in every single word. They
also mask up very early on. Schools, there is a large amount of transmission, not of COVID but other viruses, because there has been no
other ventilation in classrooms except ordained by the head teacher.
That frustration is born out of a
death of a very near -- dear friend
of mine who survived a transplant, went home, his co-worker did not
wear a mask and she gave her COVID
and he died after all the long time he spent in hospital and after all the NHS work to try and take care of
him. The equation does not seem right there. Can I ask the Minister if the government is really going to
make sure that all the recommendations, not just the first report which we seem, that come out
of the COVID enquiry mean that we
keep people safer, not just recovered but we encourage frontline staff, including those in the NHS, is where they were, they will be
able to work closely.
And above all, given the nature of this debate, that we are able to support people
as they face death and the loss of loved ones in the future.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Can I begin by thanking the Right Reverend Prelate The Lord Bishop of London for securing this debate on
London for securing this debate on this important matter but also to
16:00
Lord Kamall (Conservative)
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this important matter but also to
the noble Baroness Baroness Brinton. I was reminded of experiences all of
us have had of lots of people during
COVID, all of us have had experiences of grieving. I wonder whether I could just share my own
experience. Just as a reflection. On September 20, 2020, I lost my father
in law and then four hours later, lost my father. My children lost
both grandfathers on the same night. We were brought and unable to grieve
in the usual way.
It to watch the funerals one day after the other on
what's up a video. -- WhatsApp video. It wasn't until I was able to visit America to visit my father's
grave and scatter the ashes. You realise when your breakout break down and cry the feelings you've had
all these years and how debilitating
Can I express my condolences and sympathy to all of those that suffered personally and lost loved ones during the pandemic. As well as the health and care workers who
looked after us and those suffering from COVID-19.
We should also acknowledge the work of the public sector workers who went on to
, essential services, whether bus drivers or delivery people, so
people could isolate themselves at home, they put themselves at risk.
When in government, we announced the NHS and social care life assurance scheme to protect the families of frontline NHS and social care workers who died while providing
essential work. Initially it was a
payment to families in England and similar schemes in Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland.
We felt it was important to increase the support to families facing bereavement. Uptake was not as high as it could have
been, we had to extend that to September 2020 to ensure more families could benefit. While many
help in many cases, it is important in other types of support that noble
Lords have discussed that people in bereavement may need. In 2021, research indicated that for every
COVID-19 death, there were up to
nine people affected by bereavement, highlighting the importance of bereavement care.
It is important
that those still experiencing bereavement, there are still those
who have not found closure in their own lives on these issues. It is
important they continue to receive necessary support and care. Ongoing
bereavement is defined as when feelings of loss are debilitating
and do not improve even after time
passes. We are often told that time heals all wounds, in many cases it
is not for many people. Many others have lost loved ones or friends, but those with ongoing bereavement find it an incredibly difficult
challenges to get on with their daily life, to do the most simple things.
Noble Lords may be aware
that the first recommendation of the UK commission COVID commemoration
was the introduction of a UK wide day of reflection to be held on the first Sunday in March, to
commemorate the anniversary of the first lockdown. Which is to remember and commemorate those who lost their lives since the pandemic began, to
reflect on the sacrifices made by many in the impact of the pandemic
on us all. And to pay tribute to the
work of health and social staff,
frontline workers and researchers and appreciate those who volunteered and showed acts of kindness during
this time.
I know there is always reference to small acts of kindness, we saw so many acts of kindness even
though it was a horrible time, a time of great uncertainty for many
people. We welcome the decision to continue the commitment of the last government to commemorate the anniversary and it is important to
remember all of those who were lost and the government should be credited for continuing to recognise
this. I would like to ask the Minister about bereavement
education. As others said, in many cultures, death may be celebrated or
simply accepted as part of that
circle of life with children attending funerals and ceremonies to understand the inevitability of
death.
In our culture we are not so open about these issues. We often do not deal with death until a friend
or loved one passes away, especially when it is unexpected. I sometimes
think about the New Orleans funerals, they start very sombre and then turn into a mood of celebration
to celebrate the life. I have often
said to my wife that I want accommodation for a Muslim funeral and New Orleans funeral. I'm not
sure how that will go down. Not sure people will appreciate that switchover.
But I think we should
celebrate life as well. We should also remember, how do we make sure
we discuss death earlier in our life. I'm a bit worried about making
life. I'm a bit worried about making
people laugh, because up to now it did feel like we were at a funeral, so I am pleased we can laugh at it,
sometimes people do laugh, they have fond memories of that person who has passed away, they tell stories, that
is a wonderful way to make sure we celebrate people.
As Baroness Brinton said, faith leaders are very
good at helping families to face grief and face bereavement. What
grief and face bereavement. What
more can be done? In the review of the R HST statutory guidance, can the Minister update the House on
whether there some thought being given to include some specific content on grief education and
bereavement? Can they share any kind
of thinking or options being considered? All of us have spoken about the importance of this. Sometimes it is not easy in a top-
down government way.
how can we
create space to make sure we can talk about these issues? It is not an easy subject to tackle. Anything
the noble Lady the Minister can
share today or writing will be gratefully received. Given the importance of the issues that noble Lords discussed in this debate
today, is the Minister able to tell the House will give the House a firm
date for when a response to the UK commission to the final report will
be published? The subject we are discussing today is an understandably complex and sensitive area.
We were all touched by COVID
either directly or indirectly. We
all lost loved ones or heard stories and some of us suffered from that
delayed bereavement or extended
bereavement. I think the best thing we can do from the debate is not that as they get those who passed
away, let us not forget those still suffering from the effects of long covid. Let us not forget those still experiencing bereavement.
16:08
Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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I want to congratulate the Right
Reverend prelate on securing this important and touching debate which
was somewhat inevitable considering the subject. I also want to
acknowledge her ongoing dedication. Since sharing the UK Commission on Bereavement and the publication of the report, having taken place, the
Right Reverend prelate and the commission continued to champion this important issue and I would be happy to agree to the meeting that
she requested. I'm also grateful to
the noble Lords on the Front Benches
for sharing not only their personal experience and reflection, which is
what this subject is about, but also for the points they have raised,
because I know they want to improve
support for those who are bereaved.
The Right Reverend prelate made a
The Right Reverend prelate made a
good point that there is bereavement through the loss of a loved one, but there is also bereavement through the loss of what might have been.
One such example is those who have long covid. I'm sure we can all
think of others, but it is always right to think about loss in those
terms. As noble Lords have said, all
of us have, will, experience grief through the course of our lives.
It is absolutely vital that bereaved
families and friends have access to
the support that they need and when they need it. That can come from a variety of sources, as noble Lords
described. I will turn to that again later. I can assure your lordships House that the government is looking
for the best ways to support those in grief, including those bereaved
as a result of COVID-19. I also want
to, on behalf of the government, also associate myself with the
thanks to those who provided services with full public spirit, no matter what sector they were from,
private, public, charitable, voluntary, they were public spirited
to the core and they kept us going and I'm deeply grateful.
I also wish
to reiterate the condolences to all of those who were bereaved and all
of those who suffer loss of some
kind and have been affected by the
pandemic. So, I want to turn to the day of reflection which noble Lords
have referred to. This year marked
the fifth such event since the outbreak of the pandemic. It is a
significant milestone and an opportunity to form one's thoughts
and memories and also actions, as we remember all of those who were
affected.
The noble Lady shared the
UK commission for COVID commemoration to consider appropriate ways to remember those
who have died and how we should mark
such a sombre time in our history. It is not history for those who are
bereaved, it continues to be with them. So, I want to thank the noble
Lady and the commission for their extensive work in speaking with
those who are most impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic, including representatives from the bereaved family organisations. I'm grateful
to those organisations for their work.
The commission's first recommendation of 10 is a UK wide day of reflection should be
established and held annually on the
first Sunday in March. On 9 March this year saw over 200 events in communities across the country and
we saw how important this day was to
so many. And to Lord Kamall who asked about a day of reflection into
the future, I can certainly say to him that we see how much this date
matters to people and we also see how many communities took part and I
thank all of those local organisations and communities for contributing to that.
We hope that
will create a foundation for future years. It did allow people to
remember the many losses in a way that was appropriate and meaningful
for them. In contrast to... For me it struck me in contrast to our
experiences during the pandemic, which were ones of isolation and
separation. And loss of the lives we used to lead for that period of
time. There was close working with
charities, faith groups, voluntary and social enterprise organisations,
that was a mark of the day of reflection and I appreciate the role of those organisations, not just
with the day of reflection, but there role in supporting those who
experience grief.
We've -- we all pay tribute to them and their work.
In local areas, the city council
continues to work in partnership with compassionate Sheffield and that aims to improve people's
experiences of life, loss and death. Certainly access to support is
important, it has been referred to
throughout this debate. I can say, and noble Lords will be aware of
this, to name one thing the government is prioritising funding to expand NHS talking therapies. That is something which people can
itself refer to or consult their GP to get to that point.
I think this
is a tremendous service for people.
Baroness Brinton referred to the issue of children and young people's
mental health. I mention the
expansion of mental health support
teams in schools, putting in place hubs to provide access to mental health and the recruitment of 8,500
new mental-health workers to treat children and adults. In all of these ways we would help to support those
children and young people who are bereaved. To the point that the
noble Lady, Baroness Brinton, raised
about PPE, we are responding to each of the reports from the inquiry so
that will be dealt with in that regard and I agree about keeping
people safe.
My thinking about the comments the noble Lady made, I
totally agree about the matter of seeing. I think that has provided
comfort in a way we could not have anticipated. I noted her comments about ads for cheap funerals and I
will raise that with the ministerial
Lord Kamal talked about culture and indeed different religions,
different communities have different cultures. As he will now, in the
Jewish tradition, it is tradition to sit with what is known as shiva for
around a week were support can be freely given by visiting the home of
the aggrieved.
As Lady Anderson reminded me, it is hard to get a
group together and not to feel some form of celebration whilst giving that support. All of these models
are ones that I hope we can look to.
To the points that were made about
long COVID, which is a very real issue and will not be going away, we
have invested £340 million to expand treatment and rehabilitation
services and established 100 long
COVID services for adults and 13 specialist paediatric hubs for children and young people, and they
assess people with long COVID and direct them into ways of care to provide the right support, treatment
and rehabilitation.
We have also
invested 50 million in 22 research projects for long COVID. And I think
in all this people can be reassured that we continue to support people.
In terms of the question about adding treatment to national
curriculum, we are reviewing the
RSHE curriculum and will look to do a consultation on the draft, revised
RSHE statutory guidance which ended
in July. I will be very interested, I will take a particular interest with my ministerial colleagues about
with my ministerial colleagues about
where that does sit.
And to that point, I just want to say that my department does bring together cross
governmental colleagues to discuss bereavement as part of a government
working group on bereavement and
it's a form in which -- forum in which we share best practice and I
think today's debate will fit into that very well. We take reports from the UK Commission on Achievements
very seriously and continue to engage. To the Right Reverend
Prelate's point about end-of-life,
dying well is a fundamental right,
in regard to human dignity and compassion.
And we have a responsibility to ensure the best
possible care. That include supporting families and carers of young people involved in that. NHS England has developed guidance to
support ICBs with their duty to commission palliative care services within Integrated Care Systems and
that guidance does require commissioners to ensure significant
access to bereavement services to be available for families and carers, including children and young people.
And I would like to just turn to ongoing research. The pandemic made clear, I believe, the need for
bereavement services to offer both practical and emotional support, as noble Lords have referred to.
But the fact is, noble Lords will not be
surprised, not many people know about these services. Many services
are not reaching those from ethnically diverse communities. Through the National Institute for
Health and Care research, we have commissioned a survey to look into
commissioned a survey to look into
how to reach those minority's. This includes groups from many different
backgrounds. I look forward to the study's findings which will be published later this year. My Lords,
let me just finally set we do need
to take an evidence approach to health and balance this across the
NHS.
Decisions on whether Newgate
will be developed are overseen by a privatisation aboard and the privatisation board is considering
bereavement as a potential topic -- prioritisation board. In reiterating
my sympathies to all those who are bereaved and all those who continue to be affected directly or
indirectly by the COVID-19 pandemic,
I feel like it is incumbent upon us to look to further progress on bereavement support services and I look forward to the continued across
government working and I'm sure cross-party working in order to
achieve this.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
We now move to motion for debate.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
We now move to motion for debate. The criminal case backcourt --
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The criminal case backcourt -- backlog in the Crown Courts. It's an honour to introduce this debate on the troubling issue of the backlog in the Crown Courts. I'm
backlog in the Crown Courts. I'm grateful to those who have indicated that they wish to speak in this debate. Many with extensive knowledge of the subject. I'm
knowledge of the subject. I'm especially grateful and looking forward to the maiden speech of the
forward to the maiden speech of the noble Baroness lady Longfield. Our experience, skill and reputation
concerning issues affecting children go before her.
Including those who
16:22
Debate: Crown Court criminal case backlog and impact on evidence, victims and fairness of proceedings Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)
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in some way have come into contact with the criminal justice system. I
16:22
Lord Carlile of Berriew (Crossbench)
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know that Lady Longfield will have a very important contributions to make in Your Lordships' House today and in the future. In recent days, the
in the future. In recent days, the government has made a welcome announcement which was repeated in Your Lordships' House. The
Your Lordships' House. The government has indicated that its attention is focused on the subject
attention is focused on the subject of this debate and that they intend to take appropriate steps to reduce
to take appropriate steps to reduce delays in the Crown Court and without dilating justice.
They have appointed the distinguished retired
judge, Sir Brian Langstaff to prepare recommendations on this
difficult subject. Like Sir Brian, I was there when the Crown Court
started in 1971, often appearing in
cases alongside him. So was Lord Thomas of Gresford. We may have been
in the very same courtroom on the first day -- on the first day of the
Crown Court. Sir Brian's many years
in the Court of Appeal as well as his practical experience in the Crown Court in the past will have
given him a view, as it were, from the bridge of the criminal justice system.
I know that he will be
paying close attention to the advice and help offered to him by those
ratings who have spent the recent
In the Crown Court watching the delays accumulate. Some statistics, my Lords. In September, 2024, there
are 73,105 open criminal cases. Nearly double the figure for 2019.
Seriously delayed cases included 21% for violence, 18% for sexual
offences, public funding for justice declining 24% in real per person
terms between 2010 and 2023. This is
an unacceptable situation.
As it happens, last Friday, I attended the valediction of a judge at the
Maidstone Crown Court. His Honour, Judge Philip Stefan, is not a famous
judge but he has been an exceptionally good one, admired over
20 years in two Crown Courts. Those who took the trouble of attending
were there because we knew he was an outstanding member of the judiciary
who should be the centre. In a courtroom with standing room only, we congregated to say a reluctant farewell to someone who has been the
very model of modern a circuit judge.
Has tried everything, for
example, matters. Like all good judges, he is also judges, judged
judges, he is also judges, judged
He told us of how in his last He told us of how in his last three
weeks as a circuit judge, during what he described jocularly as the bits and pieces caught, he dealt
with 10 cases each day in his first three weeks, 150 cases. One judge, 150 cases. He commented that too
much judge time is spent filling the
roles of case progression officers and that every hour spent on administration is an hour away from
judge craft, as he put it, from getting it right for all those coming before the court and seeking
justice.
Judge statement was not
grumbling but he was giving a gentle nudge to allow judges to judge and
do right by all manner of people --
Judge Statman. As he said, we need
more judges, more competent criminal advocates, more sitting days. There
is, how does one explain inordinate delay to grieving families in cases of murder, death by dangerous
driving, sexual abuse? I adopt for
this debate, my Lords, his reference
to the case of the Queen in the Court of Appeal.
In that case, to
experience judges commented that all
too often judges although too little time for sentencing hearings, too
little time for the hearing itself and for the judge should take time to reflect and to weigh up all relevant, often conflicting,
considerations in arriving at the appropriate sentence. Today, I received, through an email, a
message from a judge who will remain anonymous who described that they had had to do 30 hours of unpaid
preparation of a case they were about to see in the Crown Court.
Court listings said the Court of Appeal inside a should ensure there
is sufficient time for the judge even if they know the case will. The
judge must take the time to read and
prepare sentencing remarks in age and appropriate language. Judges must have time to think. Wise and
correct words, my Lords. Again,
errors views expressed by judge
Statman. The jury trial is the jewel in the crown of the Crown Court. As
he reminded us, rights take
territories -- centuries to learn but they can be brushed away at a stroke.
That we should remove the
right of jury trial from some cases to save time and cost is easily said
but in my view, neither prove nor justify. There is no need to replace
jury trial for smaller cases. In any event, what is a small case? A small case to some is a huge case to
others. A small case for some means
the end of their working life, of the reputation, of their marriage, of their family. If a police officer in a case of assault triable either
way might end his career, should that attract a lesser tribunal that asking for a trial by his peers? If
a teacher or doctor or for that matter, my Lords, one of us, is accused of relatively minor offence
of dishonesty, if convicted, it will likely end our professional lives and destroy reputations.
Should we
deny such people trial by their
peers? Having been in the courtroom conducting those cases both for the
defence and prosecution, during half a century of my legal career, I
challenge in principle the removal of jury trial and especially because it is completely unnecessary. For
what our time savings that it is
asserted could -- would take days if jury trial was removed from some potentially significant cases? If a
judge were sitting either alone or with magistrates, unlike jury 's
verdict, the judge would have to be recent.
We could not simply have guilty or not guilty without any
explanation. That reasoning would be very similar to the legal directions
and summary of evidence given by the judge in jury trials and take just
as much time. There might be a very small net saving and court time dealing with the jury after it has retired but generally, that
represents only a tiny slice of time
It's likely that decisions from such intermediate courts would give rise to significant increase in appeals and more use of court time.
It would
be difficult to exclude appeals on questions of fact which are not
appealable from jury verdicts,
saving the importance of new evidence arising after the jury verdict. I know subsequent speakers will address alternative and
effective ways to recuse judges more
effectively. In addition, time can be saved by the more effective use of amended Crown Court rules.
Prosecution and defence advocates should be required to provide short
skeleton arguments ahead or well ahead of the hearing date for all
cases, including guilty plea cases
not requiring a jury.
The prosecution should be required to indicate in advance any sentencing guidelines that are relevant. The defence should be required to
indicate the number of their mitigation submissions, including indication of what they should --
submit should be an appropriate sentence of the case. Advocates
should be paid for the work they do on such intermediate documents. Currently, almost the entire fee
payment in a criminal case is loaded into the final trial or plea
hearing. I do welcome the presence in this debate of Lord Bellamy who
have done valuable work in relation to legal aid.
I look forward to what
he says about payment of advocates.
Advocates should be required to adhere to the timesaving rules and remunerated for the currently unpaid
work they do on preparing documentation. I have no doubt there
would be a favourable cost benefit evaluation of such work. I'm
absolutely sure from my experience that that sort of exchange of information would mean many cases would be over in minutes with such a
system. And there should be a target
of no more than two hearings in every ordinary case.
You would not
believe how many hearings there are sometimes in small cases in the Crown courts. In an excellent House
of Lords library briefing produced on the In an excellent House of
Lords library briefing produced on 13 March this year, one of the three courses of the current situation was described as more ineffective
trials. Saying 27 percent of trials do not go ahead on the day scheduled, almost doubling since
2017. Key reasons included witness
and defendant unavailability and the late arrival or non-arrival of
prisoner transport.
This shocking figure calls for severe contractual
financial penalties for such
failures. Another cause of the backlog is that decline in the number of criminal law barrister is available for publicly paid criminal
available for publicly paid criminal
work. Declaring my interest as a
member conducting predominantly
criminal work... Elsewhere in their profession would produce sharper, quicker, better prepared cases.
Sitting days need to increase, which
in my view would show a cost benefit gain. Part of the cost benefit
analysis should factor in the paraphernalia of problems for those involved, including worsening mental health until the cases are
determined and 20 percent of defendants retained in custody and acquitted later with significant
financial loss.
Of course we have to recognise that work can be done
better, doing cases a little faster
can improve the quality of a trial. That should be subject to judicial directions, particularly where there is interminable documentary evidence which could be summarised more
effectively, which juries struggle
effectively, which juries struggle
with. A major area for first more than I have done a number which have
lasted months and months, far longer
than 20 days. In cases where it can be agreed between prosecution and defence that a nonjury trial would
be satisfactory, subject to specific provisions that would be acceptable,
we could speed up the courts, such provisions may include a maximum
sentence of say seven years in prison, a judge sitting with two experts alongside the Competition Appeal Tribunal's model, which was
presided over by Lord Bellamy when I
became a chair of that tribunal, and a full written judgement along Competition Appeal Tribunal lines.
These courts could be separated from the general Crown Court. In addition, there should be more and
earlier diverging orders in suitable
cases to ensure that young offenders
can be diverted from crime. In increasing the credit for guilty pleas when the case has not yet
reached trial. Unfortunately, we have a crisis in the Crown Court, we should not waste that crisis. I
suggest that careful and moderate organisation of the Crown Court system, including more efficient
management at every level cannot solve current problems without
solve current problems without
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damaging the fundamentals of our trusted justice standards and principles. The question is this motion be
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agreed to. I draw attention to my interest
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I draw attention to my interest in the register. It is a privilege to be part of this debate today. And
to be part of this debate today. And an honour of my life to be giving my Maiden speech in this great House. I want to start with thanks to all of
want to start with thanks to all of my new colleagues on these benches and noble Lords from across the House for all of your warm welcome.
To my sponsors for their huge support and encouragement, not just
16:38
Baroness Longfield (Labour)
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lately, but over the years, and the House staff for being helpful and kind as I find my way around this place, the corridors and procedures,
place, the corridors and procedures, they have been tolerant, courteous and ways pointed me in the right direction. I checked this debate today because it relates to so many
today because it relates to so many of the issues I have spent 40 years
of my working life focusing on. Families and children growing up in poverty, poor housing, with poor mental health, living with domestic abuse and addiction.
Those children
abuse and addiction. Those children most likely to fall through the
most likely to fall through the gaps. I will come back to this but wanted first to give you an idea of
my own journey to this place. I grew up in a small town in West Yorkshire, my father's family worked
as engineers and he designed engines for aviation. My mother was a carer for her parents who had lost their
sight early on in life. We all lived in the same House.
I knew first-hand
the challenges life could bring you,
but also how vital support was. Their values of hard work, enterprise, caring for your
community and a strong dose of that Yorkshire, get on with it, spirit, alongside a good deal of encouragement from some great
teachers, what I took with me when I left to be the first in my family to
go to universities. As I threw myself into working with children
myself into working with children
and families in London.
New to the capital in the '80s, the inequalities of childhood experiences were stark, the families
I work within the East End had no expectations, the explosion of
creativity, creativity and wealth along the river in Canary Wharf
would change their lives. They also showed me how things can be different, with the right support, families can overcome challenges and
share in the opportunities. I spent the last four decades working to enhance those opportunities for all
enhance those opportunities for all
children.
The national children's charity and worked to deliver the Sure Start program and Number 10's
strategy in it, I campaigned for better childcare at a time when many
so the issue is quite niche. As children's commissioner for England, I spent six years championing the rising interest of children with those in power who make decisions
about children's lives. I'm particularly proud of the pioneering
work my office did, highlighting the barriers that hold children back in
their life chances. My list year -- last year of Children's Commissioner coincided with the COVID pandemic, I saw then how children can too often
slip from you and be an afterthought.
We should celebrate
that most children and families in our country are doing well but a sizeable group or not and we need to
be ambitious for them also. We lost so many of the early intervention programs, Sure Start, youth clubs,
family support projects, we now put billions into acute, late intervention services. The one
million children who come into care
to late and cost £250,000 or more
year to care for. We should pay
year to care for.
We should pay
tribute to... Misogyny at this time.
When I asked children, in prison, how they end up there, almost everyone can pinpoint when things
got worse and what could have been done differently. It is almost like a blueprint. The first excretion at
school, moment losing her job, professional interventions that came
too late. Four in 10 children in custody now are on remand. Most will
not receive an immediate custodial sentence once they get to court. I have argued we should do everything
we can to keep most children out of custody during remand.
We see
promising results from a Ministry of Justice pilot that keeps children are remand in Manchester. It will
not surprise My Lords to hear that I
will continue to work on causes like this in the House. I believe in the
potential of public services to stand alongside people to bring
about positive change. I also believe, as I'm with these to say to
me, quite often, where there is a will, there is a way. I know
everyone in this House one children in our country to flourish, but my experience has taught me it will not
happen for a lot of children, they need help to prevent problems becoming barriers.
I will be doing all I can to ensure that we in this
House do all we can to provide the kind of help and support that can change those lives.
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It is a great pleasure and an honour to follow Baroness
honour to follow Baroness Bloomfield's Maiden speech. She is a legend, she has spent decades
legend, she has spent decades campaigning to improve the
campaigning to improve the experience of children. In her powerful, moving speech just now, she demonstrated her continued determination to fight for the
determination to fight for the rights of some of our most vulnerable citizens stop her persuasive expertise will make her a
persuasive expertise will make her a valued member of your Lordship House, I look forward to working
with her in the future.
Other noble
Lords expressed concerns on the impact of the backlog on victims and
defendants. What is less well-known is there is a looming recruitment and retention crisis in the
16:44
Baroness Levitt (Labour)
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judiciary. The caseload of Crown Court judges is unsustainable. The recent judicial attitudes survey
found very high levels of stress and disillusionment in judges, 35
disillusionment in judges, 35 percent of them are planning to take early retirement. When you add this
to those who will retire by virtue
of age, 42 percent of Crown Court judges will be gone by 2029. Of the
judges will be gone by 2029. Of the part-time judges of whom knew judges are appointed, only 22 percent are planning to apply for a full-time
role.
There are things that can be done and some of them do not need to
cost much money. It just requires the system to think about things
differently. It has been a tenet of faith over many years that what is needed is judicial case management.
Until now, it has been said by
senior judges and others, defining criminal proceeding rules and timetables. They have been wasting much of their time. Most of the
parties to a criminal trial have
barely heard of the rules, far less having read them.
In the Crown Court
there are no sticks and precious few carrots, cannot make the parties comply and there is no incentive for
them to do so because they are paid the same whether they do it or
whether they do not. The result is a large number of pointless hearings
in court, achieving little other than increased blood pressure and an increased backlog. I do not have to imagine these problems because until
just before Christmas, I was one of those judges. I used to think
constantly, I have 35 years experience as a criminal barrister,
12 of which is a KC, I never thought I would sit in hearing at the
hearing, day after day, saying the council, so you have done none of the things you were ordered to do? OK.
Let's set the new timetable
which you and I both know you're not going to comply with either. Crown
Court judges are a precious resource. Many of them came to it because they regarded as public service. Yet, they cannot get on
with the things they ought to be doing because they are spending a large proportion of their working
lives messing around setting
timetables. I also have reservations about an intermediate court with no jury. My concerns include the impact on diversity and public confidence.
Most juries are economically and socially diverse. The judiciary,
My proposal is for an intermediate judge who could for example be a
district judge interested in a promotion to the Crown Court. The
master good here the small, routine applications were presiding over jury trials and passing sentences.
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-- While presiding over jury trials. May I first of all congratulate
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May I first of all congratulate
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May I first of all congratulate the noble Baroness Lady Longfield on her maiden speech and welcome her to this house. And thank Lord Carlile
this house. And thank Lord Carlile for reading this debate. In my view,
for reading this debate. In my view, we have two fundamental problems with the court system. First of all, there are not enough terminal
there are not enough terminal lawyers to go around. Whether it is CPS, prosecution or defence.
16:48
Lord Bellamy (Conservative)
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Secondly, as the noble Lady Levitt has also said, there are many
inefficiencies within the court system. If we can tackle those, we might not need radical reform. I
might not need radical reform. I would like to take a very brief I would like to talk very briefly with
would like to talk very briefly with four points. I understand that in 2025, stairs Crown Court would still
2025, stairs Crown Court would still
2025, stairs Crown Court would still be unable to use more than 25%
capacity.
Another cohort -- Crown
Court coast last month. And only 8/20 courts at the Old Bailey were
actually working. My Lords, at the present time, the court backlog is
an emergency. There is no justification in such an emergency
for an outdated accounting rules to restrict court settings. On the
question of costs, the court system
has high fixed costs. But the
marginal costs are relatively low. Part-time recorders fee is 800 Part-time recorders fee is £800 a
Part-time recorders fee is £800 a
day.
It is basic economics. The correct economic response is to
maximise to reduce unit costs. Prison restrictions laid absurdly to
the opposite result. Higher unit
cost but lower court disposal. It is not an efficient system. More fundamentally, under the Courts act
fundamentally, under the Courts act
2003, tribunals ... Under section 17
of the Constitutional reform act 2005, the Lord Chancellor takes a formal oath to ensure the provision
of resources for the efficient
running of the court.
It is not subject to Treasury or political
change. So would the Minister accept
that by virtue of those steps, court resources must be ring fenced from
spending cuts? Lastly, given the astonishing figure from the MAO that
27% of trials are ineffective, as
mentioned by Lord Carlile, does the noble Lord the Minister agree that although listing is traditionally
regarded as a judicial function, the
general efficiency of listing practices as distinct from decisions on individual cases is a legitimate
subject of public debate and
scrutiny by Parliament -- NAO.
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From these benches, we welcome the noble Baroness to her place and
the noble Baroness to her place and congratulate her on an excellent maiden speech and look forward to hearing more from her. The lady
16:51
Lord Thomas of Gresford (Liberal Democrat)
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hearing more from her. The lady Chief Justice told the constitution committee on 28 February that
dealing with the backlog felt like running up a down escalator. She
said we cannot even assenting to maximum capacity at the moment
diminish the backlog. We can't do it. Cases are now being listed as
far forward as 2028. There are two enquiries underway. The very
principle of access to justice is threatened with all the effect that
this has point rooms, witnesses and indeed upon lawyers and judges.
Giving evidence, as I have a number of occasions, is not easy. The very
fact that your account is to be challenged both for truth and accuracy is very daunting. The
further you are from the events you are attempting to describe, the greater the pressure and the greater
the possibility of self-doubt. The weakness any -- a weakness any
competent cross examiner will
exploit. According to reports, 1441 trials were cancelled on hearing
date in 2023, compared with 71 in
date in 2023, compared with 71 in
2019.
This is because no legal -- legal professionals were available. The average time for a case in the Crown Court has increased in four
years from 480 days to 695 days. May
I say something about the shortlisting. The last trial I was
involved in, I went five times to the Crown Court for nothing because
my junior had something paid to do. You can feel the hurt I'm sure as I
speak. The remuneration at the criminal bar is so beautiful, it
reminds me of the days of the dark trial.
Noble Lord Lord Carlile who is to be congratulated for securing
this very important debate, he is too young to remember the line of
ageing barristers whose careers have been wrecked by the war and who sat
in the Birkenhead quarter sessions in their yellowing weeks, hoping to be picked by a defendant for the
princely sum of two guineas with five shillings, of course, for the
clerk. We are back to those days. As for judges, the traditional
attitudes survey published last February found that more than three quarters of serving judges suffer
from work-related stress symptoms with higher figures for females and
minority judges.
30% said they are suffering from burnout and in
addition the survey shows the court buildings and equipment are in a
mess and not for places to work in. My Lords, this is not the time for wringing hands. I don't employ my
family Moto of who can we blame. At a time for action and what is the
government going to do?
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It's humbling to speak in this debate in the company of those better qualified than I to make comment but I rise to speak,
comment but I rise to speak, particularly about the impact on victims, and from London, I would also like to welcome the noble Lady
16:54
The Lord Bishop of London (Bishops)
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also like to welcome the noble Lady Baroness Longfield to her place. It continues to be a great shame that
the criminal justice is one of those Cinderella public services. We often
talk or feel like spending money on schools and healthcare is good, and of course it is, but talking about
spending money on prisons, probation and the court is much less frequently affirmed. This is despite
the fact that not spending and the courts has a terrible implication
for victims.
I wonder whether improving public understanding of the importance of a well-functioning court system for victims and
dependents -- defendants may be a
key to gaining wider support and resources that are so desperately
needed. What decisions has the
government made to improve public understanding in this way? As has already been mentioned, the new report of the Victim Commissioner
lays bare the extent of the support. It includes a significant toll on
victims mental and physical health with a risk that they may, in the
words of the noble Lady Baroness Newlove, give up on seeking justice altogether, a second justice --
injustice compounding the first.
The report published last week details
the distressed experience of victims
of rape and sexual -- serious sexual offences. Many found the delay so traumatic that they withdrew from
the process. And adult rape cases,
59% of victims were dropping out precharge in June 2024. Perhaps the
most distressing part, as already mentioned by the noble Lord Lord
Carlile and Lord Bellamy, is the increasing number of ineffective
trials. Scheduled trials that do not go ahead on the day.
As we've heard, according to the National Audit
Office, published last month, the proportion of ineffective trials has increased from 16% in 2019 to 27% in
2023. Is referred, some of the reasons mentioned, include field or
delayed transport. I wonder if we should ask the question, if money is
being saved in one part of the
system at the cost of another? What steps are the government taking to look at spending holistically across
the system so that increased investment can be shown to pay for itself in the longer term? Finally, I welcome the government's wider focus on reforming criminal justice
and the call for creative thinking.
This is especially seen through the sentencing review to which my noble
friend the Bishop of Gloucester submitted a paper proposing a new approach to sentencing reform. I
hope we will continue to think creatively but always with victims and defendants in mind to reduce the
Crown Court luggage. -- Blockage. Crown Court luggage. -- Blockage.
16:57
Lord Burnett of Maldon (Crossbench)
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May I join others in congratulating the noble Lady Baroness Longfield on her
instructive maiden speech? The outstanding caseload in the Crown
Court has reached a level, which is irretrievable without a radical change to the way in which many
Crown Court trials are conducted. I
repeat just a few figures. In January, 2019, the outstanding caseload was 33,000. It rose to
40,000 as COVID lockdown engulfed us in 2020. The end of September 2025,
in 2020. The end of September 2025,
it was over 73,000.
The December figure will soon be published by the Ministry of Justice. There is no doubt that it will be significantly
higher. The backlog continues to grow and that is because the volume
of cases coming into the system has greatly increased. There is no sign of those volumes diminishing. The
proportion of cases taking more than one year to conclude at the Crown
Court has roughly doubled over the same period. My Lords, all those
involved in the system are working hard to I ran out problems which result in too many hearings,
ineffective trials or date guilty
pleas and much else that has been referred to.
I'm afraid those changes and improvements will not
changes and improvements will not
solve the problem. They would help. Similarly, extra sitting days will not solve the problem but would
help. There is an obvious solution and in this, I respectfully disagree
with the noble Lord Lord Carlile who must be congratulated for this
debate. A substantial proportion of cases that can be tried either in
the magistrates court or Crown Court but which currently go to the Crown
Court should be decided, in my view, in that court by the same composition that deals with appeals
from the magistrates court.
That is
a judge and to magistrates. -- two.
Obvious cases for such trials would be all offences which carry a maximum of two years imprisonment.
It is the maximum sentence that enables a defendant to elect for a
jury trial. Many other cases, including drugs offences, criminal damage, regulatory offences, and
others were on conviction, the sentence would inevitably be non- custodial or short term of
imprisonment, might also be
considered for should be such trials. Such trials would take hours rather than a couple of days because
that is how long they take in the Magistrates Court.
Perhaps, more importantly, much of the technical
not guilty pleas that are entered in the Crown Court at the moment would
The limit which I notice I have reached makes it impossible to develop the arguments or deal with the reasoned arguments in the opposition. Having pondered this
question for some time, this solution first mooted 25 years ago
by Sir Robin Ormond stands a good
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chance of reversing what is other -- otherwise an inexorable decline. I would like to add my
17:01
Baroness Hazarika (Labour)
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I would like to add my congratulations to my honourable
congratulations to my honourable On her excellent Maiden speech. She has been such a force for good in public life, speaking up for young
people and I know she's going to make a fantastic contribution. She is also my roommate so I don't know if that is a blessing recurs for her, it's certainly very lucky from
my point of view. We are all rightly concerned about the huge backlogs in the court system as we heard reports
the court system as we heard reports
, profoundly shocking.
We all know that justice delayed is justice denied. How can we look at victims
of crime in the eye and say we do care when the trial could take years and they have to live in limbo waiting for their day in court, particularly women, particularly those female victims of sexual
violence. These delays cause anger,
hurt and frustration to all parties and we heard they can also make people drop the case. The system which this new government has
inherited is broken. That's why it is good that there is some radical
thinking going on and I welcome that the government has asked Brian Everson to conduct this review.
I
know that many of my Lords and ladies will disagree with me but I
do think it's time to examine whether we can move away from trial
by Jury's in some, not all cases was because I ask this question, how can
it be right that a class a drugs offence sits in the Crown Court while a vulnerable rape victim has
to wait five years from reports to courts? I also hope we can use
magistrates courts more, they do excellent work and having spoken with many in the profession would be keen to step up.
Could the Minister
tell us the -- if there are plans to recruit more magistrates as we may need more of them if we are looking
to change the system. Could he also update us on plans to improve court
infrastructure, including crumbling buildings and the national computer system which often goes down and
causes delays. We all have a shared interest in sorting this out. We are a country that is built on the rule
of law and we believe in having a
strong legal system.
If we do not find a way to clear these backlogs
and in a reasonable time space, there is a real danger that people
not only lose trust in our system, but feel that we now live in a society which is essentially
lawless. And that crimes go
unpunished for years and years and years and then maybe just wither away. That is something none of us
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want. To congratulate Baroness
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To congratulate Baroness Longfield on her excellent speech. I should declare an interest as a practising barrister and a former record of the Crown Court. There is
record of the Crown Court. There is no doubt of the disastrous
no doubt of the disastrous , unfair to defendants, to witnesses, particularly complainants, and they bring the
17:04
Lord Faulks (Non-affiliated)
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complainants, and they bring the whole justice system into disrepute. When I was a member of the Constitution Committee we considered the effect of COVID on court backlogs. I think we were right to
do so it's a constitutional issue. I was anxious to explore the possibility of reducing jury trials
and replacing them with trial by judge only or judge and to magistrates for top my colleagues were a bit uneasy about the suggestion, although I spoke about his neurologic house. I then asked
the question addressed to Lord
Bellamy, I suggested that a defendant should have the right to choose to be tried by a judge rather than a jury.
A pretty modest
proposal and I was met with a very firm response in the negative. I do think it is time to think quite seriously about jury trial. Of course we have a strong romantic
attachment to it. We know very little about why juries come to their decisions. Anecdotes about the
process are not always as
reassuring. We infantilised juries
by only allowing the admission of evidence we think they can handle rather than allowing them to decide
what is important.
We do not require any -- reasons to be given to their decisions which makes the appeal process difficult. It was standing
back and considering why it is desirable that more than 90% of all offences are tried by those with
expertise either district judges or magistrates who are trained and have
a legal advising. For the five% or so of the most serious offences we think it wise to allow them to be tried by a random selection of citizens who would no doubt do their
citizens who would no doubt do their
best.
It should perhaps be borne in mind that we used to have jury trials for personal injury cases and libel cases, absence is not missed.
Nora juries a universal feature of the Criminal Justice System. I have
course paid great regard to what Lord Carlile said about this and I congratulate him for bringing
forward this debate. Three minutes is not long enough to develop this
important topic. But I would commend a chapter by the late and much
missed Barnaby of Eaton-under-
Heywood and his book 2nd helpings.
It was more than 50 years ago that Lord ROSCO suggested that fraud trials should not be tried by juries. These backlogs allow us to
think about the future of this mode of trial. I hope this government is rather more amenable to the
possibility than its predecessor. At least restricting trials by jury and
perhaps by intermediate trials. It's not a good idea to abolish something
because of the backlogs, but the backlogs do allow us to think carefully about what we need to do by way of trials.
17:07
Baroness Coussins (Crossbench)
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The failure of the to use -- of
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The failure of the to use -- of
us to use qualified interpreters can add to the backlog not to mention the costs. I declare interests as
the costs. I declare interests as co-chair of the all-party group and modern languages and vice president of the chartered and linguists. I
of the chartered and linguists. I have warmly welcomed this week's
publication by the MoJ of the review of qualifications and experience required by public service interpreters and thank the government for accepting all its
recommendations.
During the COVID
lockdown was a major shift towards remote court hearings, but a series of reports found serious concerns
about remote interpreting with misunderstandings, delays, poorly performing technology and Mr verbal
and non-verbal cues. The University of Surrey Centre for translation studies has produced cutting-edge research on the use of technology in court interpreting. This research
and best practice guidance have been
divided to the MoJ, could the Minister say whether they have been distributed to the courts, because they will always be certain situations where remote interpreting
as appropriate or unavoidable.
Remote interpreting generally takes
more time and slow things down, so if the primary driver is cost saving
that the impact on court time and therefore backlog clearing must be
factored in when weighing up the imagined savings vs true costs. The
other strategy which might well
backfire and cause greater delays is the uncontrolled use of AI enabled machine translation rather than a
qualified human being. Accuracy must be nonnegotiable but according to the CRL for interpreting as opposed
to translation it is very unlikely in the near term that AI or machine translation will be usable as
anything other than a support tool for human interpreters without major
risks and the likelihood of appeals and legal challenges.
It works pretty well for the standard
European Romance languages and for German, but significantly less so for languages with many dialect like
Arabic. It can be nearly useless for languages which are rarely included
in AI training data including many Asian and African languages. Given
this disparity it will be almost impossible for the courts to maintain equality of treatment
maintain equality of treatment
before the law. AI and machine translation, -- commonly failed to
detect sarcasm, irony or humour, but to mention slang and euphemism, often used in crime to disguise meaning.
Which human interpreters readily understand which leave AI
befuddled and hallucinating. Mayo therefore asked the Minister if the
MoJ is fully engaged with DSIT in
his work to develop policy on AI including for machine translation so that the courts can derive the benefits without the pitfalls.
Finally the Minister also reassure the House that the amendments to the
Victims' Code to ensure that the use only professional qualified translators and interpreters and which she supported so strongly when
in opposition will be brought into
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practice without any further delay. May I also start by welcoming
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May I also start by welcoming owners Longfield and thanking her
owners Longfield and thanking her for an important Maiden speech. The issues of sentencing presence in the court system simply cannot be
court system simply cannot be separated. The backlogs that have triggered this debate today must be
17:11
Baroness Porter of Fulwood (Conservative)
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triggered this debate today must be looked at in that wider context. The recent Public Accounts Committee report looks specifically at the
Crown Court backlog, looking at specifically at the Crown Court backlog makes the point that the end of last year, 11% of the prison
population was made up of remand inmates, the highest level in 50 years. 32% of the remand population
have been held on remand beyond six months with five% on remand for more
than two years. The report makes the point that even getting levels down
to where they were in 2019, just six years ago, would free up as many as
8,000 prison places.
The state of our prisons and the very difficult
Work Work of Work of helping Work of helping equip Work of helping equip people Work of helping equip people for Work of helping equip people for a life beyond their releases made even
harder with such a high proportion of inmates there on remand. The situation is also not helping the remand prisoners themselves, the longer someone waits before coming to court for resolution of their
guilt or innocence in the eyes of the law, the more removed they often become from the day-to-day fabric of their life, from their job, their
family, their friends.
This helps no one. There has been political
consensus for a long time now that much sentencing is not optimal, with people being sent to prison were in many cases of the sentences would be more appropriate. Courts sit at the
heart of this conversation, the sentencing review which has been referenced being undertaken by David gawker is hugely important. These reforms shouldn't be looked at
piecemeal. As Levinson also undertakes his review, into this
issue around backlogs and the
criminal courts more poor -- broadly, the two reviews absolutely must be dovetailed together into one coherent whole.
Reform is long
overdue and it requires us to look at the system as a whole, sentencing
and the courts. With both court backlogs and prison capacity forcing these issues to be addressed, we should see this as an opportunity. I
Two specific points of the noble Lord the Minister. Firstly can he please outline what has been done to
consider the impact of the large number of remand prisoners on the wider pressures, and capacity issues with the prison system. Secondly can he commit that the government will
respond to the two reviews when they report in an integrated way and consider changes to sentencing and changes to the court system as a
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whole. The essential causes of the
backlog we are debating are clear enough. They are to be found in
enough. They are to be found in prevalent or austerity measures, underfunding of legal aid, sales of the court state and underinvestment
the court state and underinvestment in the remainder. What has been described as the unmitigated disaster of privatisation of the
disaster of privatisation of the probation service. A bad situation was made worse, the courts and
was made worse, the courts and forecourt users by the pandemic.
Some of which I spent in a subterranean Nightingale courts. The
response of all court staff to the pandemic was impressive, and should
be acknowledged. The effects of the backlog are also clear. Particularly
for victims. The courts have to prioritise some types of cases inevitably to the disadvantage of
others. Delays impair the court process, evidence does get mislaid,
witnesses disappear or disengage.
Juries require specific necessary directions on the effect of passing
17:15
Lord Meston (Crossbench)
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time on memories of events and of the availability and reliability of witnesses. Of particular concern to
witnesses. Of particular concern to family judges are cases in which there are parallel proceedings in a criminal and family court. It used
criminal and family court. It used to be possible to defer hearing a family case which was likely to be
family case which was likely to be determined by the outcome of a criminal case. Delays now mean that simply cannot be done. The situation
is now reversed, the charging decision is often awaiting the decision of a fact-finding hearing
in the family court.
Produces yet further delay in the criminal case and prolonged uncertainty for the family and in particular for
children. In the short-term, clearly courts and the court estate should
be worked fully to capacity without artificial and frustrating restrictions on committee sitting
days will stop that would allow for
use of trial and sentencing blitzes and for more use of part-time judges including those authorised to sit in
retirement, but I agree with Lord Bellamy that it is really time to end the fiction that listing is a
end the fiction that listing is a
Long-term consideration should be given by the Bar Council requiring a
Crown Court trial is to start within six months of the first hearing.
Which, in time will prove no more
unrealistic than the 26 weeks for disposal of public law, children's law in the family court, to which
legal and other professionals have responded resolutely. That should be underpinned by rigorous case
management, while procedural judges,
leaving the full-time judiciary, particularly court centres, from work which cuts into and holds up
ongoing trials. Time does not permit
to consider the all the longer term suggested solutions eroding jury
suggested solutions eroding jury
trials.
We should recall the Lammy Review and researcher that concluded that the one stage in the Criminal
Justice System, where a minority group do not face disproportionality
is when a jury reaches a verdict.
17:16
Lord Lemos (Labour)
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Can I also congratulate my noble friend, Lady Longfield on her maiden
speech. I greatly welcome the arrival of such a powerful advocate for children, in your Lordships'
House macro. I should declare my own
interest. I have been non-executive director of His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service, since 2018. I
welcome the government's efforts to reduce the court backlog and the
timely system is fundamental to public confidence in justice.
However this is only one of the steps are needed for a sustainable Criminal Justice System.
Prisons are
at best, once offenders will be held
into police cells under safeguard.
Introducing various early release measures, otherwise offenders would have had no prison to go to. Latest
logistical challenges and public protection risks involved deciding who to release and when. They are
obviously tremendously complex. Prisoner building will not resolve
this crisis, My Lords and certainly not soon. As I think the Lord
Chancellor has recognise. Normally, prisons would operate at about 90%
occupancy, not 99% plus.
Even these lower levels often mean serious
lower levels often mean serious
crowding, in a Victorian prisons alike HMP Wandsworth and Wormwood Scrubs. They are often restricted,
particularly when there are staff shortages. The consequences are
starting to appear in boredom, disorder and violence. The truth is,
a whole system of courts, prisons and probation is operating way beyond capacity. And increasing
activity, in one part of the chain
simply increases demand pressure, elsewhere. We need much more than
temporary fixes.
Locking up more and more people, for longer and longer has led to the current crisis. It
has done little to reassure the public that they are adequately
protected. I eagerly anticipate the reviews of survivor Levenson into
court backlog and into court sentencing. It is through the
greater use of non-custodial punishments. I use the word
punishment to convey the seriousness
of the intent. Currently less than 10% of tags and are less than 2% or
on home detention curfews.
In my view we will need a new branch the probation service to supervise increased numbers of offenders, in
the community. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that the Criminal Justice System can only be brought back into a long-term sustainable
balance, bite fundamentally re- concealed and radically approved Probation Service, which will need
considerable investment.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I also congratulate Baroness Longfield on an excellent speech and look forward to hearing from you,
17:20
Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington (Crossbench)
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look forward to hearing from you, later on. I think we must accept
that the Criminal Justice System currently does not have the capacity, in terms of the CPS,
defence lawyers, prison places, to actually get a grip, to deal with
the delays that we have, in the judicial system. And I want to, as a
former Commissioner, talk in relation to what is happening now on
the streets and in relation to policing. And the noble Lord the
Minister has heard from me on the rape cases previously and others, which took place 10 days ago.
It
takes four years for a rape case to
arrive at the Crown Court. At the present time, 91 trials listed at
Snaresbrook will not be heard until
the latter part of 2028. This is the same delays that have some,
Woolwich, and Central criminal Court. --'s book. What is the
answer? There are some in my view,
low lying fruits. The first would be to reopen and continuation of the
Nightingale courts. The second would be the turning of the magistrates
be the turning of the magistrates
court, in to a Crown Court which is what happened at Hendon when Harrow
was close.
They have to be at the right standard. I recently went around some courts, they were filthy, the toilets were disgraceful
and the whole atmosphere was not one that you would want to spend much
time in. I believe that the court hearings should go from 10 in the
morning until four in the afternoon. And in addition to that, I think
greater credit should be given to a defendant pleading guilty, on the first day of his appearance, rather than on the third appearance, when
than on the third appearance, when
he or she turns up for trial.
I think the question determining trial, in a way should be decided by
the judge and not the defendant. I
think greater consistency should be given to a listing the process,
allowing the police to prioritise
caseloads, and given times. They have made a plea for me to actually
talk about that today. The only way that this can be dealt with by
cross-party, cross departmental attack on it. Chaired by someone who
has the power to get different departments to deal with this problem.
Because it must be solved.
It is a scandal, at the present time.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I declare my interest as a former
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I declare my interest as a former Chair of the Bar Council and a recorder of the Crown Court. I begin by congratulating and welcoming Lady
by congratulating and welcoming Lady Longfield, into this House. The context, today, was set for me, by
context, today, was set for me, by the survey just published, that one in three criminal barristers is considering leaving a criminal work,
considering leaving a criminal work, because they say they work too hard, for too little. That will only make
for too little.
That will only make
17:24
Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
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things worse. From 2009/2010, two 2022 for /2023, public funding for
2022 for /2023, public funding for justice in England and Wales had declined by over 22%, in real terms.
declined by over 22%, in real terms. It is worth noting that the ministry of justice budget is about 1% of the
health budget. Obviously some backlog in the Crown Court is inevitable. Cases waiting to be
inevitable. Cases waiting to be tried need time for proper preparation. So the issue is not
preparation.
So the issue is not having a backlog, but the deficit, the failure of the system, properly
to cope with it. The backlog, we have heard, is caused by many
different factors, but especially, I suggest, reduced quarter sitting
days and too few criminal barristers and those with the right
certification and approval to do serious criminal cases and rape
cases and so on. So I welcome at the Government's recent decision to raise the sitting day cap to a
110,000, in the next financial year.
But there must be adequate funding to ensure that these new available
sitting days are properly used. The number of Crown Court cases, coming into the Crown Court, routinely
exceeds the disposals. In the third quarter of 2024, there were over 30,000, 1000 cases, received into
the Crown Court. That was a 12%
increase on the previous year. This rising tide must be controlled and
reversed. The number of cases in the backlog, as we have seen now,
continue to rise over time.
What are
we going to do to tackle that backlog? We have had a number of suggestions, one I suggest and this was one suggested by the bar
Council, was that the CPS was given more consideration to the better use
of cautions and conditional cautions, for low-level offending,
by those of good character who are not likely to receive prison sentences. The Crown Prosecution
Service should also be considering whether a summary charge, of the consequences of the summary trial
may actually be sufficient for many cases? Particularly now that the magistrates courts jurisdiction has
been increased.
I endorse the suggestion of Lord Bernard, the
noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, for his experience as a Lord Chief Justice, that we should
be looking very seriously at intermediate Court, of a judge
sitting with justices. The court estate must be used to full capacity, Sitting Days of the Crown
Court Must Be Removed. Better Fees
Must Be Paid to Criminal and Defence Barristers, to Ensure We Have Enough
to Meet the Demand. 20 Years Ago, as a Chair of the Bar Council, I urged
the then Department of Constitutional affairs to pay properly for pre-trial place management.
Nothing was done, we have the best we have, because of
that. So there we are, delay damages, damages and victims,
damages this is, damages defenders.
It destroys of this country's reputation for justice, we must do
better. better.
17:27
Lord Hacking (Labour)
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I must begin by congratulating my new colleague, the Baroness Longfield on her maiden speech. And give her a very big welcome in your
Lordships' House. I really speak in these Thursday backbench debates, for I fear I do not have the
necessary expertise. I'm not really sure that I have the necessary
expertise, for this debate, but I did, long ago practice as a long
barrister, in the courts of quarter session, laid at the Crown Court, in
the 1960s and the 1970s.
I then was
not aware of any backlog, any backlog at all of criminal cases, waiting for trial. It is now a big
problem. As recorded in our briefing
notes, provided by our library,
73,205 criminal cases are waiting, were awaiting trial in September
last year. A bar student, who was my guest last night, told me that he
worked recently in the Birmingham
crowned court, which has only three
ushers. The result was the great underuse of those courts.
Lord
Bellamy has made that comment. I endorse all he said. Clearly there
is something wrong. The great
difference, my Lord, because of days of long ago, when I was in practice of the bar and these days is the length of trials. Murder trials and
then, seldom went over a week and
were often much shorter. Now they are double, triple or even more. And it is exactly the same, my lords,
with other criminal trials. Indeed, colleague and this is a civil
matter, told me the other day that he couldn't make further commitments, because he was about to
start a trial, which was scheduled
for a year.
This was quite unheard- of, in those days of long ago. It is a very difficult to cut down the
length of criminal trials. It will be perceived there is too much at stake for both the prosecution and
the defence. We have got to play our part in reducing this terrible
backlog. As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in his excellent opening
speech identified, greater efficiency, in court process could
17:30
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (Liberal Democrat)
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This has been a wide ranging and
This has been a wide ranging and impressive debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile for securing it and for the comprehensive and persuasive way in
comprehensive and persuasive way in which he opened it. I also join, with everyone, in congratulating the noble Lady, Baroness Longfield on her excellent and are moving maiden
her excellent and are moving maiden speech. Long experience with the
speech. Long experience with the charity, and as Children's Commissioner will be invaluable.
She
Commissioner will be invaluable. She has shown today how she would give us a full insight into how the Criminal Justice System impacts on the lives of children and young
people. Lord Carlile's motion are
rightly concentrates on the impact of delays on evidence, victims and
the fairness of proceedings for defendants. Last Tuesday, following the Lord Chancellor's statement to the House of Commons, I described
the current backlog of 73,000 cases awaiting trial, as an after
disgrace. Lord Carlile and others
have given us the figures.
I do maintain that the Government could mitigate these delays, with a determined and urgent action to
Free lawyer who has worked in trials
civil and criminal well knows that evidence becomes less accurate with
the passage of time. The accounts of honest witnesses often differ markedly, even when events are
recent and reasonably fresh. But discerning the truth becomes much more difficult as time passes.
Recollections fade, witnesses become available, unavailable and details
are forgotten. Often details which could help distinguish accuracy from
false and whether deliberate or unintended.
Then documents get lost, or their meaning and import are not
recalled. Unreliable evidence means
unreliable trials. Often leading to surprising acquittals where juries
cannot be sure of guilt. There is
also a risk of unsafe convictions, particularly where defence evidence cannot be found or witnesses traced
and called. As Lord Carlile and Baroness Levitt pointed out, the
problems are compounded by having a demoralised, frustrated and often
overstressed judiciary. As Lord Thomas Lord Sandhurst said, and underpaid and unhappy Cader
barristers.
The motion speaks of the
effect on victims and in that context we rightly stress the
effects of years of delay in victims of sexual violence. With many dropping out of prosecutions because they simply cannot take the strain
as the Right Reverend Prelate the Bishop of London described. That is desperately unjust for the victims.
Who feel they have no option but to let the perpetrators go free and to
live with the guilt that goes with the fear that those same perpetrators would reoffend against
other victims.
So perpetrators are not brought to justice and that
means a widespread lack of public confidence in the justice system as
a whole. The noble Lord the Minister
mentioned last week that there were courts, he mentioned Bristol, where sexual violence cases were treated
separately and brought on faster than other cases. Should not that be
a general practice? But it's not just sexual violence cases where victims suffer from these delays, court delays light the entire
system. When the motion speaks of
unfairness to defendants, innocent defendants are deprived, sometimes
for years of the chance to clear their names.
They and their families
suffer unjustly through the process, often off to shop -- ostracised by
friends, losing employment and suffering intolerable strain for extended periods. Defendants who are
guilty can lose the chance of early access to rehabilitative services.
Sometimes in ways that might surprising. Many defendants as we
all know need help with mental health issues. But they can be cut
off from treatment. My daughter, an NHS doctor, has referred me to the exclusion criteria of one NHS Trust
for access to talking therapies.
Such therapies are not available to and I quote, individuals who are undergoing court or legal
proceedings which involve harm to others. I do not believe this is
atypical. Defendants to a charge of
violence cannot access sometimes for years of delay, a service that might really help them to address the mental issues that brought them
before the court in the first place. Thus the cruelty of justice delayed
takes a serious toll on the lives of all those affected. So what is to be
done? First the MoJ must take up in
my view all the sitting days the honourable lady Chief Justice says are available.
Lord Thomas referred
to her views, and I have no doubt
that she is right, whatever the exact figure there are several thousand extra days that could be utilised. The first reason given by
the Minister last week for not
taking up those extra days was competition for resources. But long delays in court hearings do not save
money, they cost money. A delayed trials have to be paid for in the
end and meanwhile there are more defendants in prison on remand as
Baroness Porter said.
They may be acquitted or receive community
sentences at the end. There are more defendants and victims and families
with their lives on hold, making greater demands on public resources
as they await delayed trials. I agree with Lord Bellamy's views on
increasing efficiency to reduce costs in this area. The second
reason given by the Minister last week was the need to have some
headroom in the system. To accommodate surges in demand for court time caused by events like the
riots last summer.
I accept that that argument has some force, but in
my view it would be better for such headroom to be provided if the need
arises by emergency measures in the short-term rather than by tolerating
in the long-term unjust and
unacceptable delays. Then as others have pointed out the court maintenance program needs to be put
on an emergency footing. So that our frankly decrepit courts, many unusable and unused as Lord Bellamy
also pointed out, can be restored to
full service.
With temporary buildings used as necessary while the necessary repairs are undertaken. I suggested last week
that the government should consider evening and weekend settings for uncontested cases leaving more court
days available for trials. Might the
noble Lord respond that suggestion? I also agree with the suggestion of Lady Levitt that we should have
criminal masters to deal with a raft of applications that don't need the
attention of justice -- judges. One of the Nightingale courts may have to remain open for longer than
planned, even if they are not ideal as Mersin pointed out.
As Lord Stephen said, they can be used. We
do need to improve procedures so that fewer cases are adjourned
because of the listing errors and prison transport mistakes which
currently bedevil the Crown Court. I also agree with the procedural
suggestions of Lord Carlile for more advanced notice of argument to be deployed. For skeleton arguments.
I've always agreed I should say with Baroness Coussins on the need for
efficient interpretation. The
government accepts that more must be done, and that even with the measures they are taking the backlogs will grow.
They pin their hopes on proposals for structural
reform. But we cannot rely only on the hope that the Levinson review
will solve the problem. Certainly in time structural reform of the system
may help for my part I am loathe to restrict jury trials not least for
the reasons given by Lady Hazarika and Lord Meston, that juries are multiracial and tend to be non-
discriminatory. I do see the possibilities mentioned by Lord
Carlile of the new solution for long fraud trials.
But Sir Brian's report
when it comes will have to be carefully considered, the government will need to respond, any reforms
will take time to input and even more time for them to have an effect
on the backlogs. Given the urgency
we do not have that time.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Can I begin by extending my thanks to Baroness Longfield for her
17:40
Lord Keen of Elie (Conservative)
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thanks to Baroness Longfield for her Maiden speech. And for the insight she gave to the issue of children in
the justice system. An area where she no -- I know she will continue to make their important contributions to the proceedings of the South. -- Very important. Mary
also thanked Lord Carlile for securing this debate on such an
urgent and important issue. I will not seek to repeat all the damning
statistics that we have heard already, in a sense they speak for
themselves.
But for 40 many victims,
justice now feels out of touch. For far too many accused, the resolution
of a criminal complaint feels out of reach. Victims of serious crime such
as rape, mom -- murder and robbery are being told that their cases will not be heard until 2027, or indeed
as Lord Stevenson -- Kirkwhelpington
pointed out, in some cases 2028.
Half of victims of other Crown Court trial is adjourned or rescheduled. This is not just a matter of
inconvenience or inefficiency, it is a failure, it is a failure of
society to deliver justice that victims deserve and expect, and it's
a failure of our society to give accused their right to resolution of
a criminal complaint within a
reasonable and rational time.
Listening to these contributions I
note that some would adopt the view that there are somehow an absolute
Somehow an absolute right to trial by jury. I would not accept that proposition. Almost 90% of criminal complaints are disposed of without
the requirement for a jury. It may be regarded as some sort of fundamental right, but it is not
absolute and we should not regard it as something that is inviolate at
all. We face a situation in which
the proposal for modest change or careful and moderate improvements is
simply not going to be enough.
The present lady justice lady Chief
Justice has pointed out that the backlog continues to increase despite the best efforts of the
Ministry of Justice, the courts and the legal profession to see it go
the legal profession to see it go
otherwise. The noble and learned Lord, a predecessor Lord Chief
Justice pointed to the situation we are in is being essentially in need
of radical change. And radical change is the only thing that is
going to improve matters in the present situation.
We heard from a
number of Lords about the difficulty of maintaining the appropriate
number of lawyers at the criminal bar. And indeed it is clear that
over many years now, the recruitment to the criminal bar has been
rendered far far more difficult by reason of the very limited legal aid made available to those who practice
in that critical and important area.
Indeed Baroness Levitt also made the point that not only is there an
impact upon the practising bar and impacts upon the judiciary themselves who in many instances
feel overburdened by the situation that has now been allowed to develop in the last few years.
Again we have
to look at how we can approach this, I would respectfully adopt the view
already expressed by Lord Burnett and indeed Baroness Hazarika and
touched upon by Lord Foulkes that we should look at some sort of
intermediary court structure. There is clearly room to deal with the
either way cases that I understand represent something like 40% of the
existing backlog in the Crown Court.
There are a number of ways in which it could be done, the adoption of
something similar to the Diplock courts, where the Crown Court judge sitting with two magistrates for example would be one way forward.
Whether that should deal with only specified offences or whether it should deal with for example a
sentencing power of up to two years or I might venture up to five years is a matter for debate. And cannot
be resolved at this time. But there is clearly a need to address that issue and to potentially introduce such an intermediary court. I don't
with respect accept Lord Carlile suggestion that this would give rise
to a greater number of appeals, that was not as I understand that the experience of the Diplock courts in
Northern Ireland.
But again it is an issue that bears examination, and it
will also be necessary to take into account the points made by Lord Meston about the impact of nonjury
trials uncertain parts of our
society, and I appreciate the importance of that but it's something that can be examined going forward. The reality is that we
forward. The reality is that we
We We cannot We cannot continue We cannot continue with We cannot continue with the We cannot continue with the backlog in the Crown Court that is simply
increasing.
It is out of control. There are some interim measures that can be taken. The noble Lords Stevens referred to the Nightingale courts. I understand that originally
about 16 and Nightingale courts were established of which about only 16 are in use at the present time. -- 16. Do we actually have the judiciary to man those additional
courts. Do we have the practitioners of the criminal bar, who are going
to be available to prosecute and defend, in those additional courts, there are so many factors coming
together here, that create, not just one problem, but a chemistry of
problems.
And one that cannot be resolved by one or two simple steps.
It is going to take a leap of imagination, by the noble of the Minister and his department to actually address this, in a capable,
credible and effective way. The noble Lady, Baroness Poulter and the
noble Lord, Lord Lima's both made a
very important point. There is an inextricable link between the present backlog and this increasing
backlog and the immediate problem that we face with our prison
population.
I understand, from the library statistics that something
like 20% of our prison places are taken up by prisoners on remand. And
of those a very large proportion represent, will be regarded as
certain cases. If we can relieve the
backlog, when immediate advantage may be that we take some of the pressure off of our present prison
estate. We have to look at this, in the round. It is not just a case of saying we need more judges. It is
not a case of saying we need to pay lawyers more, although I always think that is a very good idea.
It is not a case of saying that we need
more court rooms and it is not a case of saying we can just introduce an intermediate court. We have to
bring all of these features together. And having regard to that
of course, we are immediately faced with the issue of resources. So can I make this request of the noble
Lord the Minister. Will he ensure that the Hansard report on this
debate is passed, by him, to his
colleagues thank you.
17:48
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
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This has been a fantastic debate,
it has been a wide ranging, it has been extremely well-informed and it
was opened by my noble friend and with her excellent maiden speech,
and I very much look forward to working with her and learning from
her, in the future... And particularly young people. I would
also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile for securing this
debate and I think there is no doubt
that the government faces a profound challenge in the Crown Court.
Our ability to provide justice to the public is of utmost importance and
I'm very glad we have had this debate, here today. I will rehearse
some of the statistics, even though other noble Lord have given the
statistics. When this government came to power, it inherited a record
and rising court backlog, which as of today stands at over 73,000 cases. It was around half of that
figure, five years ago. The issue is more difficult to tackle, then just
rising numbers.
Receipts are increasingly high and the outstanding caseload is different
than before the pandemic. As it is made up of a greater proportion of
more serious and complex offences. Those offences take up more court time and tend to have a lower guilty
plea rate. In July, the Lord
Chancellor made an immediate
decision, upon entering office to reduce Crown Court sitting days by 500, on top of the allocation provided by the previous Lord Chancellor, and the previous
government. This was followed by a further increase in 2000, sitting
days, in December, of last year.
We also increase a magistrates court powers for a single trial or
offence. Previously they can only impose a six-month prison sentence,
for these offences, it has now been increased to 12 months and in doing so will free up capacity in the
Crown Court here the most serious cases. The capacity that will be freed as an equivalent to an extra 2,000 sitting days in the Crown
Court. We did not stop there,
earlier this month there was funding for a record high occasion, 10,000 sitting days, in the next financial
year, to deliver swift justice for victims.
This is 4,000 more days
than previous government funded. However, we are aware that increase capacity alone is not enough and only fundamental reform to tackle
the issue. Which is why we appointed Sir Brian Levinson, one of our testing was judges to conduct
wholesale review of our criminal courts and propose long-term
reforms. Tackling the outstanding case, for the Crown Court is a top priority, for this government, who
will look to act on recommendations, from the report, as soon as
possible.
I want to touch on other jurisdictions. Of course, the
department has been focused on the tackling demand within Crown Court. It is important to recognise that it
is part of an interlinking court system. We must work to tackle
across the whole system. Over 90% of all criminal cases are dealt with the magistrates courts, where cases
continue to be completed swiftly. While the caseload has arisen, from $72,000 and 151 cases to 333,000,
349 cases, between September,
between September 23 and September
and September 2024.
However my Lords, I think this is important. The timeliness of getting through
that increased caseload, within the magistrates court I think that is a
real achievement which we should acknowledge of the MoJ for managing
and the courts themselves. To deal with the increased demand we
continue to invest in criminal magistrates. This is going to be the
point made by Baroness Hazarika. We are aiming to recruit similar to the
numbers in the next couple of years, but we need to increase that figure and one of the things I spend my time doing is working out how we can
increase the recruitment of the magistrates.
When I started as a magistrate, about 20 years ago, 30,000 and magistrates in England and Wales, there are now 14 When I
started as a magistrate, about 20 years ago, 30,000 and magistrates in England and Wales, there are now 14,000. We need to get the numbers back up to 20,000 and then back up
recommended. Also talking a bit about family
courts, the caseload within a family courts, both in public and private is actually reducing a bit. So again
that is a good story. There are other problems in the report arena, which I'm aware of, but I think the
family courts as well, is not an emergency situation, which we are seeing in the crown cause.
Returning
to the issue of the Crown Court backlog. Many noble Lords have asked about the impact of delays on the
reliability of evidence. The point at which a number of noble Lords
made, Lord Marks, amongst others. Of course this affects the victims, it
affects witnesses and of course many witnesses are victims, as well. And
there are a number of the measures in place to support them giving
in place to support them giving
their evidence. These are questions asked by the Lord Bishop of London, about the support for victims, which we do regard as very shortened.
We
do have a separate victims start to drop out, the longer the cases are
delayed. The Criminal Justice System already works together to give
vulnerable and intimidated victims an early opportunity to provide evidence, after a not guilty plea is
entered. Under section 28 of the act
1999. Victims can have their cross- examination pre-recorded, enabling
victims and witnesses to give evidence at the earliest stage, when their recollection of events is likely to be better. The police, the
CPS and others enjoy a joint protocol to expedite cases involving
witnesses under 10 years old.
Maximising and providing of the best
evidence and reducing the result.
Prosecutors also have guidance on allowing witnesses to refresh their memory. This usually involves the
witness rereading their witness statement on the day of the trial.
The Department funding of the national witness service also means crucial emotional and practical
support is provided to us occasion witnesses, in all criminal courts in England and Wales. To enable a them
to give best evidence. I now wish to
address at the undeniable impact court battle cover victims, the human costs of these is
considerable.
Witnesses who are
often victims of well play a crucial role in ensuring that justice is
served. And, indeed, as the Victims' Commissioner mentioned in her report, the delays in court system
can have a particularly adverse impact on victims of rape and serious sexual offences. To ensure
ongoing communication, in the pre-
trial period. Every CPS area now has at least one dedicated to liaison officer and its rape and serious
sexual offence unit and pre-trial meetings are offered to all adult
victims of these crimes.
This government is also committed to introducing free, independent legal
advice for the victims and survivors of adult rape, across England and Wales, to help them understand and uphold their legal rights. We hope
to begin a phased rollout on this,
later this year. The Government is also committed to implementing the
Victims and Prisoners Act 2024. The
act contains a package of measures that, once implemented will improve victims experience of Criminal Justice System and often better access to information stuck the
first tranche of the victim -related matters, from the act commenced in January this year.
They simplified the complaints process for victims
and halves the commissioner's
To account. We are implementing provisions to ensure local commissioners collaborate, on a certain support services for certain
victims. We will consult on a new Victims' Code, so that every victim of crime knows the right that they should receive, by the code.
Finally, in terms of the support for
victims. I agree with Victims' Commissioner that support services have an important role in keeping victims engaged with the Criminal Justice System and this can help mitigate the impacts of court
delays.
That is why in the upcoming financial year, we have protected
dedicated victim spending in the department, by maintaining this year's funding levels, following sexual violence and domestic abuse
support. Moving on to fairness of proceedings, for defendants. We recognise that the prolonged uncertainty awaiting trial can be
overwhelming for some defendants. We
do not underestimate the impact this has on defendants and their families. The judiciary and the
Crown Court are responsible for ensuring cases are heard properly, and efficiently as possible. They
continue to work to prioritise
cases, including those involving custody time limits.
Custody time limits and safeguard defendants by
preventing them from being held in prison for an excessive amount of time, prior to the trial. If the
trial cannot be heard before the limit expires, the court must release the person, on bail, unless
the prosecution successfully applied to extend it. Fairness is integral to the Criminal Justice System and
whilst this carriage of injustice is currently rare, it is important or
appeal system, including the possibility to apply through the
commission, functions well.
There was a public consultation, on the law related to criminal appeals, and
ensuring the system is fair and effective. We look forward to receiving the final recommendations from the Law Commission, once this
consultation has concluded. Reducing
the Crown Court backlog and improving the experience of victims, through the process of seeking justice continues to be the priority
of this government. I would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile
for racing this subject. Turning to the contribution of noble Lords, in
the debate.
Both noble Lord, Lord
Bellamy and Lord Meston spoke about
the... Judicial function of listing. They both expressed scepticism on
that. I think the point at which Lord Bellamy made, genuine listing,
he said argued was a legitimate subject for debate in Parliament and genuinely the point he made with a
specific listing of specific cases, should remain a matter for the judges. I thought that was an
judges. I thought that was an
interesting point. I wonder whether we agree with that point.
I will make sure that point is spread back
to colleagues., Spoke about the transaction. We agreed with that. We
are acting, we have two extremely
are acting, we have two extremely
Baroness Porter I can assure you we think daily about dovetailing these two reviews and how they will work together because this is an
integrated system, a point at which Lord Keen made and we really need to look at the whole system to try and get the benefits which we are hoping
to achieve through the reforms.
Lord
Faulks pointed out that jury trials, there are a number of areas where jury trials have stopped and the
world hasn't stopped turning, and it
may be we wait to see what Sir Brian recommends but there may be recommendations from the
intermediate court for cases save up to two years sentencing or maybe
five years as Lord Keen suggested. We wait to see on that matter.
Baroness Coussins asked about interpreters. There is of course a requirement for professional
translators in the code, it is an absolute requirement and the
government will consult on a new
code in due course but I absolutely recognise the points you made about the importance of interpreters to enable fair trials and fair hearings
in courts.
Lord Meston, I want to
thank him particularly for raising the Lammy review. The Lammy review
quite rightly pointed out the trust that people have in jury trials are
particularly people from ethnic minorities. That is a gold standard, I absolutely recognise that, the
government recognises that. However it doesn't necessarily mean that all trials or the same proportion of
trials as we have now will continue to be jury trials but I think the
point is well made and one which we need to reflect on as we consider
proposals as they come forward.
I would also add of course that
magistrates are more diverse than the rest of the judiciary, particularly here in London I might
particularly here in London I might
add. I say we, I was a magistrate, we are a pretty diverse bunch within London. Nevertheless I thank the noble Lord for making that point.
Lord Lang worth spoke with great authority of problems of
overcrowding and of course I aspire to great investment within the whole
system but I think the points you made about the knock-on problems --
Lord Lemos, within the prison
service were absolutely right.
Lord Stevens made a detailed series of proposals I'm sure the officials will read them with great interest but I won't comment on them
individually now but I thought they were well made and Lord Sandhurst spoke about there being too few criminal barristers, that is
obviously quite right. This there is
no shortage of trade unionists for criminal barristers in this House I
have to say, doesn't mean it's not merited. The other point Lord
Sandhurst said was to advocate for the increased use of out-of-court
disposals.
It is worth reflecting that one of the great successes we've seen over the last 20 years is
the reduction of youths in custody.
That is very much driven by the increased use of out-of-court disposals for youths when I started
as a youth magistrate therewith 3,000 youths in custody now it's a
matter of a few hundred, out-of- court disposals were a part of that transition if I could put it like
that. Lord Hacking gave me one of
his usual history lessons for which
I'm very grateful and the points you made about trials getting longer and longer were of course absolutely
right.
I think the other points I
right. I think the other points I
would like to make, Baroness Levitt
and Lord Thomas and Lord Marks spoke about the legitimate judicial attitudes survey and asked what the
government is going to do with it. One thing the government will do obviously is to continue to invest
in regular recruitment, and recognise the factors that have come
up through that survey. There will be a major review of judicial pay which has been commissioned and it
will look at the issues affecting judges and particular judged types.
We recognise the point my noble
friend has made. The other point which was made by Lord Carlile was
about prisoner transport and how, as I know from my own experience, this is often a source of delay. I can
concern, confirm that when the transport supplier, when the delays
are unacceptable and there is performance failure, then direct action can be taken by the MOJ, that
is done occasionally and it is absolutely recognised that a
completely unreasonable amount of delays are caused by the prisoners
simply not getting to court on time.
I absolutely recognise that point.
Baroness Longfield, I've already
welcome to but what I wanted to say was I'm very glad she is going to be
joining my colleague Nick Dakin and
his roundtable discussion on the topic of youth in the Criminal
Justice System, my office is literally next door to Nick Dakin so
I'm sure I will hear all about it. I think the big point to close on, I
think it's been accepted by all noble Lords you have spoken is that we really have a very profound
challenge in front of us and we as
the government are taking a bold
actions to try and address the problem of the two main problems that affect our Criminal Justice
System which is Crown Court backlogs and prisoner overcrowding.
These two problems are hugely interlinked and
we are determined to address these
problems and turnaround tanker but there are many aspects to this and I look forward to the interest of
18:09
Lord Carlile of Berriew (Crossbench)
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noble Lords as we continue along this road.
this road. -- in the closing firstly can I thank Lord Ponsonby for his considered reply to me are gently urgent to look at the research of
urgent to look at the research of the Gerald Thomas of University College into rape cases were the victim does not give evidence in the presence of the court. The results of that research are very
of that research are very unfavourable to the procedure. It is just not working well.
Secondly can
just not working well. Secondly can I thank Baroness Longfield for her Maiden speech, I will simply say she
did not disappoint. I noted the
Reverend pilots -- prelates comments about creative thinking. I think there should be some creative
thinking which does not immediately assume that we have to get rid of
jury trials in the large number of cases because we are so pessimistic about the future we can be
optimistic and indeed surely, as one noble Lord said, it's time to get on
with what can be done now without waiting for sub Brian Everson's report.
Some of it is staring us in
the face. For example, my noble Kent
woman suggestion of the introduction of criminal masters or procedural
judges, that could be started tomorrow. It would make a huge difference in causes -- courts likes
as brick for instance which has been much mentioned in this case. I also
would urge upon the government that my noble friend Lord Meston's reference to allowing criminal and
family courts to work much more closely together could also be used with civil courts and major fraud
trials.
And that there is a great deal of work can be done that would
shorten lists and delays. Lord Hacking in his interesting
historical analysis which was before my time but like Lord Thomas I had heard all about it when I started at
heard all about it when I started at
Be ushers in every court, it's such a simple thing. If there is an Usher
and a clerk in the court, the work gets done. If there is no usher no clerk the witnesses can't be brought in, the charges can be read out properly, there are unreasonable
burdens placed on the judges.
Those are simple things we can do immediately. We have a difference about juries, I would say both to my
about juries, I would say both to my
noble friend Lord Marks and to Lord Keen that in my view they are actually wrong about juries. Firstly
I would say that the reference to civil juries is irrelevant to this discussion. Civil juries did not send people to prison for a long time effectively. Judges have to
send people to prison if they have been convicted by a jury of a
serious offence.
In relation to the Diplock courts I would say with
enormous respect to the noble Lord who I admire greatly it is a poor analogy. The Diplock courts deal only with the most serious cases and
were created in an atmosphere that did not want to get rid of a single jury trial but was because you could not get a fair trial in Northern
Ireland at that time for special reasons, and I really don't think that Diplock courts take us
anywhere. Enclosing and I hope I will be forgiven for not referring to everyone who has spoken, I want to thank all noble Lords of taking
**** Possible New Speaker ****
part and to say the government has got a very big task on its hands. The question is that the motion
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The question is that the motion is agreed to. As many are of that opinion say, "Content", and of the contrary, "Not content". The
contrary, "Not content". The "Contents" have it. We now move to to Statutory Instruments previously
18:12
Business of the House
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debated in Grand Committee, online procedurals specified procedural regulations 2025 and one of the motion.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move the two motions
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standing in my name en bloc. Question is that the two motions in the name of Lord Ponsonby be
in the name of Lord Ponsonby be agree to en bloc. As many of -- As many are of that opinion say, "Content", and of the contrary, "Not
**** Possible New Speaker ****
content". The "Contents" have it. I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
now adjourn.
18:36
Oath taking
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House of Lords House of Lords - House of Lords - 20 House of Lords - 20 March House of Lords - 20 March 2025.
This debate has concluded