Community Cohesion
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
I read with some interest on the Order Paper that there was going to be a debate on “Community Cohesion”, because I wondered what that phrase meant. Usually, the topic that is going to be debated is clear from the Order Paper, and the policy issues that will be considered and the Department that is likely to respond to the debate are usually implied by that. The phrase “community cohesion” does not lend itself to any of that, so I thought, at first, that it might be shorthand for “the big society” and, as I have listened to the comments made by the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) in the debate today, that is, I think, what has so far been intended.
On this side of the Chamber, we have certainly made it clear that the size, scope and role of the Government has reached a point at which it is inhibiting rather than advancing the progressive aims of reducing poverty, fighting inequality and increasing well-being. In short, we do not believe that Government with a capital G has all the answers, and the coalition has made it clear that its alternative to big government is the big society, a society in which we all recognise the responsibilities that we owe to ourselves, our families, the communities in which we find ourselves and the nation as a whole. It is a society with much higher levels of personal, professional, civic and corporate responsibility, where people come together to solve problems and to improve life for themselves and their communities, and where the driving dynamic or progress is social responsibility, not state control. I am sure, therefore, that the concept of the big society runs, and will run, consistently through the coalition Government’s programme, which is reflected by the fact that the Minister responding to this debate is responsible for the policy on the big society.
The Government’s plans to reform public services, mend society and rebuild trust in politics are part of the big society agenda. Such plans involve redistributing power from the state to society—from the centre to local communities—giving people the opportunity to take more control of their lives. That is why the Localism Bill is so important, as are similar initiatives. It was heartening to see that so many right hon. and hon. Members wished to speak last week on Second Reading. Some 76 Members put their names forward, which I suspect was a record and which reflects the considerable interest in the localism agenda. It has occurred to me that if the hon. Gentleman wanted to have a crack at the big society, he would have tabled something on that topic at that point, and we would have found on the Order Paper a debate entitled, “The Big Society”.
The phrase “Community Cohesion” should therefore mean something, and as I reflected on that I decided to look it up on Wikipedia, which was not a particularly reassuring experience. The Wikipedia reference to community cohesion starts by proclaiming that
“this article does not cite any references or sources”,
so if there is some great sociological debate going on here, it clearly has not hit Wikipedia. The website then gives a short definition:
“Community cohesion refers to the aspect of togetherness and bonding exhibited by members of a community, the ‘glue’ that holds a community together. This might include features such as a sense of common belonging or cultural similarity.”
I cannot work out why it is necessary for hon. Members to spend an hour and a half considering our sense of common belonging, because it is axiomatic that we have a sense of common belonging.
Phil Wilson
The phrase is included in some of the Conservative party documentation that I have read on the big society, and community surveys in recent years also talk about community cohesion. The phrase has not just come out of the blue, and the hon. Gentleman’s own party has used it to explain what the big society is all about. My point is not that anyone is against the big society, but that because of the cuts that you are going to bring about, you will ensure that there is no big society.
Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)
Order. I am not cutting anything. I also ask for interventions to be brief.
Tony Baldry
I hear what the hon. Gentleman has said, but he chose the topic for this debate, and in the substantial briefing prepared by the Library—it runs to pages and pages—the phrase “community cohesion” is, interestingly, mentioned only once.
After giving the brief description that I cited before giving way, Wikipedia recommends that one should also look on the site for terms such as “gemeinschaft and gesellschaft”, “integration”, “multiculturalism”, “social cohesion”, “structural cohesion” and “social solidarity”. On the basis of those associated terms, it struck me that community cohesion is not a policy that would commend itself to many of my hon. Friends, because it is clearly shorthand for state intervention by stealth. If it is not, I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman has not candidly introduced a debate on the big society.
I then recalled, from the recesses of my mind, that there is one statutory reference to community cohesion—just one—which is that the previous Government placed in statute in the Education and Inspections Act 2006 a duty on schools to promote community cohesion, and an obligation on Ofsted to police whether schools were taking sufficient action to promote such cohesion. I do not know about other hon. Members, but in the time that I have been a Member in north Oxfordshire I have found that all the schools in my patch strive hard to play their part in the local community and do not require a tick-box exercise to determine whether they are full members of the community. Indeed, how can a school be isolated from what other parts of the community do? I suspect that every head teacher and governing body in my patch believes that community cohesion is a fundamental part of their ethos. They need neither Ministers to tell them what they should be doing nor Ofsted inspectors to check that they, as schools, are playing their full part in the community.
I assumed, therefore, that what we would be having today would be synthetic row about the perfectly sensible decision of Ministers at the Department for Education to remove from Ofsted inspectors the obligation to have regard to community cohesion when carrying out inspections, and about the decision that inspectors should, in future, concentrate on four principal areas, namely the quality of teaching, the effectiveness of leadership, pupils’ behaviour and safety, and pupils’ achievement. That seems an eminently sensible approach. Indeed, and perhaps understandably, head teachers and the teaching unions have long urged that there should be less control from the centre and that they should be trusted more to run their schools and to teach for the benefit of the pupils concerned and not for the benefit of bureaucrats. Those four principal areas of focus for inspection by Ofsted show whether a school is performing effectively, but I am conscious that the people who are opposed to Ministers removing an obligation on Ofsted to have regard to community cohesion, are also having a crack at the policy of free schools being introduced by the Secretary of State for Education and other ministerial colleagues at the Department. I find that hostility to free schools truly bizarre.
This year we celebrate the 200th anniversary of the Church of England entering the field of education and the formation of the National Society. At that time, the Church of England introduced Church schools into every parish for the purposes of educating local children. It was never intended that they should be faith schools; they were seen as part of the Church of England’s central mission to the local community, and in 1944 Rab Butler was able to introduce his Education Act only because the Church of England was prepared to integrate Church schools into the state system of education.
Then, as now, Roman Catholic and other schools provided diversity, and in recent years that diversity has been extended by the introduction and continuance of academies by the previous Government. Children in Banbury have a choice of going to Banbury school, which is a trust school, North Oxfordshire academy, which as its name suggests is an academy, or Blessed George Napier school, which is a Roman Catholic secondary school with a sixth form. Post 16, they can go to the Oxford and Cherwell Valley further education college. Parents welcome such choice, and head teachers, governing bodies and schools are all, in their different ways, rooted in the local community.
Indeed, the Education Act 1944 makes it clear that as far as is possible, children should be educated in accordance with their parents’ wishes, a concept endorsed fully by Jim Callaghan as Prime Minister in the mid-1970s during his notable speech at Ruskin college on education, in which he made it clear that whatever parents wanted for their children, the state should want for all our children. I thus find it entirely bizarre that the Labour party, which endorsed the academies programme while in government—not just in inner cities but in areas and constituencies such as mine—wants to pull up the drawbridge now that it is in opposition.
Who is it that the Opposition do not trust—head teachers, governing bodies or parents? Occasionally, they seek to show their opposition to free schools by having a crack at faith groups, but faith groups, such as the Church of England, have, as I have said, been running schools in this country very effectively for 200 years. I was fortunate enough to attend a faith school. A couple of months ago, I returned there to take part in a seminar commemorating the life and work of one of the school’s distinguished old boys, Michael Foot. I fail to understand why some in the Labour party wish to pull up the ladder that they and others climbed.
I am pleased that a new free school is proposed in my constituency that will take pupils from age eight through secondary level. RAF Upper Heyford was a United States air force base until the early 1990s. For some years, the base was in limbo while various national house builders who owned the site negotiated the planning process. Heyford Park now has planning permission for 1,000 homes, including the existing 300, and parents there made it clear in a survey that they would like a combined primary and secondary school built at Heyford Park. A Heyford Park parents’ group has grown up as a result of that effort to seek parents’ views, and it in turn has developed into Heyford Park parents’ planning group for a new free school.
I strongly support the initiative. It seems totally in accord with the Government’s policy on free schools and new academies. It also has the benefit of an existing community that will grow over time and from which such a school can be born in terms of parental support and a geographical area. In addition, there is no primary or secondary school in the area whose offering the creation of a Heyford Park academy would challenge, threaten or undermine, as all the existing primary schools nearby are effectively full, obliging many primary school children from the area to travel a considerable distance to Bicester. The creation of the school would allow children to go to school much nearer where they live.
The planning group includes Roy Blatchford, former head teacher of Bicester community college and one of Her Majesty’s inspectors. I am glad to report that the buildings for a school already exist and that there are plenty of grounds and playing space at Upper Heyford dating from when it was an air force base. The developers are willing to commit substantial amounts of money to the new free school.
That project chimes with what we are trying to do to give local people much greater control over their lives. If we are to debate the big society, let us have a debate, but I believe that the localism agenda, which gives people much greater control over their own lives—having regard to the obligations that we all have to ourselves, our families and the communities in which we find ourselves—is the right direction of travel. I am glad that it is this Government’s direction of travel.
Oral Answers to Questions
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I will look carefully at what the hon. Lady says. The security situation in Northern Ireland is a very difficult and sensitive one at the moment and the Government are giving it a huge amount of time and attention to try to help the devolved authorities in everything they are doing to combat the terrorist threat, but in terms of the specific question she asks perhaps I can write to her and give her a considered response.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Q11. My right hon. Friend will be aware that there have been some pretty disgraceful delaying and filibustering tactics at the other end of the corridor in an attempt to delay the introduction of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. Will he assure the House that the Government will make no concessions to those who filibuster?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right: we should not make concessions to a bunch, mainly of former MPs, who are supposed to be supporting the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who wants the AV referendum to take place. I have to ask him how, if he is so in favour of the referendum and thinks it so important and so wants to stand on a platform, he has lost control of his party?
Oral Answers to Questions
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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The Attorney-General
The hon. Lady must understand that any investigation in accordance with the code for Crown prosecutors must take account of the information and evidence available. If evidence and information become available that warrant looking further at a matter, that is exactly what happens. In this particular case, as I indicated in my first answer, information has emerged in the course of civil proceedings, which gives rise to a justification and reason for looking again at the material. That is exactly what the police and the CPS are going to do.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
4. On how many occasions decisions by Ministers have been overturned on judicial review in the last five years.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)
Figures for the number of occasions on which decisions by Ministers have been overturned on judicial review in whole or in part over the last five years are not held centrally, and such information could be provided only at disproportionate cost.
Tony Baldry
Well, there have clearly been quite a number. Does not the Solicitor-General’s response highlight the fact that the concept and reality of parliamentary sovereignty are often misunderstood and that, increasingly, the last word on what Parliament has decided will not be determined here, but by the judges on the other side of Parliament square, in the Supreme Court? The increase in judicial review is a reality that is now part of our constitutional fabric.
The Solicitor-General
I do not think that my hon. Friend, who is an eminent member of the Bar, is at all confused about the concept of parliamentary sovereignty. Nor, if I may say so, is our right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe, who responded to the debate on clause 18 of the European Union Bill last Tuesday.
Judicial review has increasingly become part of the legal armoury since the second world war. Ministers, whether of the present Government or the last, are not above the law, and it is for our independent judiciary to arbitrate, through judicial review cases, in disputes between the citizen and the state. The courts apply the laws enacted by Parliament, and Parliament can make, amend and repeal legislation as it thinks fit.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
1. Whether the Church Commissioners have made an estimate of the number of redundant churches converted to other uses in the past five years.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
In the last five years, there have been 117 schemes for dealing with churches that are no longer being used as regular places of worship, 93 of which have resulted in their being provided for alternative use.
Andrew Stephenson
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. St Mary’s church in Nelson is probably the largest church in my constituency, and it has a 170-feet high tower and spire. However, it was last used for worship in 1989, and it has remained boarded up and empty since its deconsecration. Although St Mary’s itself is now owned by a heritage trust, will my hon. Friend tell the House what the Church Commissioners are doing to ensure that redundant churches are put to good use?
Tony Baldry
Nelson St Mary was closed for worship in 1987. At that point, a decision would have been made whether to transfer it to the Churches Conservation Trust as a redundant church or to sell it. It was sold in 1989, and at that point the Church Commissioners’ responsibility for the building ceased.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that many churches can remain in use while adapting to accommodate other uses? Will he commend the work of English Heritage and its field officers in trying to achieve that, and will he so organise the affairs of the Church Commissioners that they encourage and facilitate this kind of continuing useful worship?
Tony Baldry
Absolutely. Increasingly, churches are being put to other uses, ranging from post offices to shops, and from community centres to internet cafés. There are 19,000 churches across the country and in many communities the church is the most prominent public building, so we want to make sure that churches are used as much as possible, rather than just for a couple of hours each week on a Sunday.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
3. What representations the Church Commissioners have made in support of Christians in Pakistan.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
It is a sad and terrible fact that Christian minorities who have lived peacefully in Muslim countries for generations are finding themselves subject to increasingly violent persecution. Churches have recently been attacked in Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria, and the assassination in Pakistan of Salmaan Taseer for defending a Christian woman who had been sentenced to death was particularly horrible. The Archbishop of Canterbury, the Anglican Bishop of Lahore and, indeed, the Christian community as a whole in Pakistan are working hard to foster inter-faith collaboration in Pakistan during this time of difficulty.
Rehman Chishti
Will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the former assassinated Governor of Punjab, Salmaan Taseer, for the work that he did on this particular issue? Will my hon. Friend ensure that representations are made to the Government of Pakistan to ensure that the excellent work of Governor Taseer can continue?
Tony Baldry
Salmaan Taseer was an incredibly brave man and his death is a tragedy for Pakistan. We would all do well to remember the words of Jinnah, the father of Pakistan, who said in terms that
“you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship”.
What I suspect every Member of this House hopes for is that there shall be freedom of religion throughout the world, and I am sure that, as a Chamber, we will continue to campaign for that wherever we have the opportunity.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
4. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to help support Christians in Sudan.
Tony Baldry
The Church of England supports the Episcopal Church of Sudan. The dioceses of Bradford and Salisbury have diocesan links to Sudan and have done great work in the region to support the Christian community, as has Christian Aid.
Fiona Bruce
I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. It looks as though there will be a new state of Southern Sudan, but it will face enormous challenges. Meanwhile, Christian minorities in the north of Sudan will face continued persecution, as organisations such as Christian Solidarity Worldwide have highlighted during many years of work across Sudan. Will the Church of England do what it can to support and protect Christians and other minorities in the north of Sudan, while also helping, where appropriate, in Southern Sudan?
Tony Baldry
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about this. Minority groups in northern Sudan have faced persecution, which is one of the many problems facing people in the region. Most southern Sudanese live on less than $1 a day, the country has almost no infrastructure—there are just 38 miles of tarmacked road in an area the size of France—and people are traumatised by years of rape and killings. I am sure that the Church of England and non-governmental organisations such as Christian Aid and Christian Solidarity Worldwide will give the people of Southern Sudan all possible support. Indeed, it behoves all of us to do what we can to support what may soon be the newest member of the United Nations as it sets out on the challenging road of nationhood.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
6. How many vacancies there are for parish priests in rural areas; and if he will make a statement.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
Vacancies are managed individually by each separate diocese. The last clergy vacancy in my hon. Friend’s constituency of St Michael’s, Kirklington was filled before Christmas after a short vacancy.
Miss McIntosh
I am most grateful for that reply. Does my hon. Friend share my concern about the number of rural parishes that vicars are asked to look after? What attention are the Church Commissioners giving to that vexing problem?
Tony Baldry
I am glad to say that the Church does not generally find difficulties in the recruitment of stipendiary clergy. Of course, it is for each diocese to decide how to organise parishes into benefices. I am told by the dioceses of Ripon and Leeds and of York that they do not have difficulty filling rural stipendiary posts. Clearly, the clergy find these appointments satisfying and rewarding.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
7. What assessment the Church of England has made of the likely requirement for provincial episcopal visitors following the entry into force of any legislation enabling the consecration of women bishops.
Tony Baldry
Provincial episcopal visitors operate under the terms of the Act of Synod, which will be rescinded if the draft legislation to enable women to become bishops is approved and brought into force. It will on any basis be at least two more years before that stage is reached and there remain important questions about how suitable episcopal oversight will be provided under the new legislation and associated code of practice for those with theological difficulties over the ordination of women.
Diana Johnson
Given the general climate of cutting costs and removing superfluous posts, if the welcome reform of women bishops is going to happen soon, which I hope it will, should not the new flying bishops be grounded now?
Tony Baldry
The provincial episcopal visitors are there under the Act of Synod. Under the Act of Synod, the archbishop is expected to take steps to secure the appointment of up to two additional suffragans in his diocese to act as provincial episcopal visitors. As I have explained, even if the Synod gives final approval to the draft legislation, the Act of Synod will remain in place for some time to come. We must keep faith with all sorts of different groups in the Church of England until there is a final decision on women bishops within the Church.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
8. What steps the Electoral Commission is taking to ensure that citizens resident overseas who are not entitled to vote are not included on electoral registers for parliamentary elections.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon)
The Electoral Commission has issued guidance to electoral registration officers on the checks they must carry out to determine whether to grant applications to register as an overseas elector. This includes checking evidence of the age of the applicant, their citizenship status and their relevant qualifying address in the United Kingdom.
Tony Baldry
What I want to know from my hon. Friend is what measures there are to make sure that returning officers and electoral registration officers ensure that those who are not entitled to be on the electoral register—foreign nationals and others—do not simply fill in and return the form to put themselves on the electoral register because it helps them to get other benefits and then have a vote although they are not entitled to one.
Mr Streeter
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. He will be pleased to know that electoral registration officers have a range of powers to require extra information from people on the register, including evidence that they meet either or both of the requirements of eligibility. Other measures available to EROs are the ability to make house-to-house inquiries and to inspect other council records. However, my hon. Friend raises an important point and sends an important signal to EROs around the country to do their job well.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
9. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to assist in the celebration of the 400th anniversary of the King James version of the Bible.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
In her inauguration address to the General Synod, Her Majesty the Queen emphasised the importance of the King James Bible and the lasting impact it has had on the life of the Church and on the nation. The Archbishop of Canterbury also used his new year message to draw attention to the anniversary and enduring significance of the King James Bible. The 2011 celebrations were launched at Hampton Court and the King James Bible Trust, chaired by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), has been set up to oversee the programme of events and activities planned around the world to mark 400 years since the creation of the book that changed the world.
Hugh Bayley
Hundreds of words and phrases in modern English came from the King James Bible, such as, “Eat, drink and be merry,” “Grinding the faces of the poor,” “No peace for the wicked” and “Fly in the ointment.” York minster and the trust will celebrate this event in many ways this year, but what will the Church Commissioners do to make this a truly national celebration of our language and culture?
Tony Baldry
The Church Commissioners will give every possible support to the trust because, as the hon. Gentleman says, no book has had a greater influence on the English language. It is a masterpiece of literature that unites English-speaking people everywhere. Indeed, a number of expressions are unique to the King James Bible, some of which are relevant to politics, such as, “How are the mighty fallen,” “Set your house in order,” “Be horribly afraid”, “A thorn in the flesh,” “Let us now praise famous men” and “To everything there is a season.” My favourite phrase from the King James Bible is, “My father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.”
Oral Answers to Questions
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)
3. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to support hospital chaplaincy.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
Last month the Archbishops of Canterbury and York appointed the Bishop of Carlisle, the Right Rev. James Newcome, as the lead bishop for health care, including the support of hospital chaplains. The Church of England works extensively with workplace chaplains, especially in hospitals, and is keen wherever possible to develop interfaith chaplaincy co-operation. We believe that chaplains of all faiths play a vital role in the support of patients, families and staff in hospitals.
Nicky Morgan
How is the Church of England responding to hospital trusts that have decided either not to replace chaplains who have left or to cut back on their chaplaincy?
Tony Baldry
Chaplaincy services are central to meeting the spiritual needs of patients, families and staff, and I am glad to note that the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the noble Earl Howe, has recently stressed to hospital trusts the importance of chaplaincy services. We will continue to reinforce that message at every level, because we are all too keenly aware of the importance of chaplaincy services to those who are sick, the dying, their families and the bereaved.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
8. What consultation the Church Commissioners have undertaken with organisations in the north-east on the future of the paintings of Jacob and the Patriarchs in Auckland castle.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
I was grateful for the meeting yesterday that was chaired by the Bishop of Jarrow, which the hon. Lady helped to organise. As a consequence of those discussions, it was agreed that the lord lieutenant of Durham will chair a working party to consider over the next three months whether it is possible for the Zurbaráns to remain at Auckland castle.
Helen Goodman
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that answer and I agree that we had a fruitful if rather cold meeting yesterday. In taking future decisions, will the Church Commissioners take account of the Christian mission in its widest sense because, as he knows, the castle is in a town with some of the poorest and most deprived wards in England?
Tony Baldry
The hon. Lady highlights the challenge for the Church Commissioners. I was grateful to her for taking me to visit Woodhouse Close church community centre and the Woodhouse Close church, which is in one of the poorest wards in the country. That demonstrates the Church Commissioners’ need to raise money to allocate to clergy in such parishes. However, we will consider carefully and seriously any suggestions that the local community makes that enable us to retain the Zurbaráns at Auckland castle. She must appreciate, however, that they are a drain on, and not an asset to, Church Commissioner funds.
Sir Alan Beith
I welcome my hon. Friend’s decision to initiate some new discussions with bodies that are interested in a sustainable future for Auckland castle and the paintings, but will he recognise that the paintings are a precious cultural asset of the north-east region? In their time and to this day, they make a strong statement about the emancipation of the Jewish community in the UK?
Tony Baldry
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The paintings were a strong and important statement by Bishop Trevor of the Anglican Church’s support for the emancipation of the Jewish community.
The Church Commissioners, by and large, do not possess pictures—we tend to own land and property—but I am in absolutely no doubt of the importance and identity of those pictures, which is why the working party that I mentioned, which will be chaired by the lord lieutenant of Durham, will consider ways in which the Zurbaráns can stay at Auckland castle, but I say that without prejudice to the wider statutory and charitable responsibilities and obligations of the Church Commissioners.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
I am not sure that the Church Commissioners fully understand the strength of feeling throughout the north-east about those paintings. I welcome the statement on the working party, but will the hon. Gentleman ensure that it includes representatives from the whole region?
Tony Baldry
The hon. Lady can rest assured that the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and others left me in absolutely no doubt, in the four hours that we were stuck together in the snow yesterday, as to the strength of feeling about the pictures in Bishop Auckland. We fully understand that feeling, but may I explain? If the pictures were sold, they would generate something like £500,000 a year in perpetuity, which could be applied to funding clergy in deprived areas, not least in the north-east. There is a difficult balance to strike, but we understand the importance of the pictures to the north-east. We will listen, which is why I am glad that the working party, which will be chaired by the lord lieutenant, has been set up.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
7. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to support the work of the Churches Conservation Trust.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
The Churches Conservation Trust was set up by statute to preserve
“in the interests of the nation”
churches that have closed for regular public worship but are of historic or architectural value. For the funding period to March 2012, the Church Commissioners will provide a further £4 million.
Tony Baldry
The CCT is supporting some 340 church buildings, all of which are of considerable historic or architectural interest. We are grateful for the co-sponsoring by the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, on a 30:70 basis. This is an issue that is bigger than just the Church. Some 45% of all grade 1 listed buildings are churches, and those buildings represent an important part of the social history of our nation.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
9. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to support the work of the Church of England in rural areas.
Tony Baldry
The Church of England has a presence in almost every rural settlement and village in England and plays an important and intricate role in rural community life.
Fiona Bruce
Village congregations play an important part in community life in my constituency. What can the Church Commissioners do to support the widest possible use of church buildings?
Tony Baldry
My hon. Friend raises an important point about the use of church buildings. The cathedral and church buildings division of the archbishops’ council has been working for the last five years to help congregations do everything that they can to work with communities to identify how church buildings can be used creatively to serve the widest community use. We now see extended use of church buildings, including as post offices, shops, libraries, internet cafes, benefit advice centres and citizens advice centres. Wherever possible, we want to see churches as living buildings where as much community activity as possible takes place, and the Church Commissioners will always support such activity.
Mr Speaker
No one is more grateful for the end of that answer than the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous).
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
10. What steps the Church of England is taking to strengthen and support the marriages of people married in its churches.
Tony Baldry
All Church of England clergy seek to give support and personal attention to those getting married, at the time of their wedding. My hon. Friend is to be commended for his work with the South Bedfordshire Community Family Trust, which seeks to provide relationship education and support in partnership with churches—a good example of initiatives taken locally to strengthen and support marriage.
Andrew Selous
What action is the Church of England taking to prevent sham marriages?
Tony Baldry
This is an issue that we take extremely seriously. The House of Bishops will consider next month what further advice needs to be issued to clergy and to diocesan chancellors to reduce the risk of sham marriages being conducted in our churches. The Bishop of Ripon and Leeds and I will meet shortly with the Minister for Immigration to ensure that we work closely with the Border and Immigration Agency to see that the Church’s systems for preventing sham marriages are robust.
NATO Summit
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
The point is that the Taliban have suffered huge reverses in Helmand and southern Afghanistan, particularly over the past year, and a serious attrition in their numbers. As for what I have said, I have not been talking about 2010, as my predecessor did, or about 2011; I have been talking about 2015.
I think the Taliban know that they are losing militarily and suffering huge attrition in their numbers. They should also know that, as well as the military hammer that is hitting them, there is the option of a political process allowing them to reintegrate at a low level, and that, with the Afghan Government, there are opportunities for reconciliation at a higher level. If we look across the world at the way in which counter-insurgencies have ended, we see that they have normally ended through a combination of military might and a political process, and I believe that the same applies in this instance.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Turkey has always been important to the defence of NATO’s southern flank, and, given the ongoing concerns about Iran’s intentions, it will continue to be so. Does that not confirm that it is in all our interests for the United Kingdom to be the best possible friend to Turkey in Europe?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right. I think it important for us to send a message to the Turks that, as far as we are concerned, they should be sitting in the tent as well as guarding the camp, and I therefore believe that, as well as being good NATO members, they should be encouraged into the European Union. They are a key ally—a key NATO ally. Given our relations with Iran, it is important for them to be staunch in terms of sanctions and trade with Iran, because that will send the clearest possible message to their neighbour.
Departmental Business Plans
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Letwin
Yes, summoning police officers to talk about that. We propose something very different, which goes beyond that. Yes, we will have beat meetings, but we will also allow people to vote for police commissioners so that they actually have accountability. That is what we mean by choice and power, as opposed to the mere window dressing of the ability to talk.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
May I make a suggestion? My right hon. Friend says in his statement that every month Departments will publish a simple report on the progress they have made towards meeting their commitments. On the day each month when ministerial colleagues from different Departments come to the House to answer oral questions, might they not also make a written statement that all of us can see? I confess that I find it difficult to keep my own website up to date, so watching the websites of 22 Government Departments will be quite challenging. However, we are all focused once a month on each Department’s oral questions, and a written statement coinciding with that would be very helpful.
Mr Letwin
As so often, my hon. Friend makes an extremely valuable suggestion, which I shall discuss with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and others. I see no reason whatever that we should not be able to do that to assist the House, at the same time as we assist the general public by publishing the information on the website.
Oral Answers to Questions
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
1. What recent representations the Church Commissioners have received on the criteria for the appointment of bishops in the Church of England; and if he will make a statement.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
The canons require that anyone to be considered and consecrated as a bishop at present has to be male and over 30.
Natascha Engel
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer. The Archbishop of Canterbury has recently written a newspaper article saying that it is okay to be a gay bishop as long as one is celibate. Where does the Church of England stand on people in civil partnerships? If they are celibate, are they okay to be bishops too?
Tony Baldry
There is no Church of England rule that prevents a celibate person in a civil partnership from being considered for appointment as a bishop. The issue is whether someone in that position could act as a focus for unity in a diocese. That would have to be considered by those responsible for making any episcopal appointment.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
2. What recent discussions the Church Commissioners have had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the effects on church incomes of the gift aid scheme.
Tony Baldry
The Churches, and I suspect all charities, are extremely grateful for gift aid. However, the administrative complexity, and particularly the need to keep paper gift aid declarations on file, causes great difficulty.
Richard Graham
I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Churchgoers all over my constituency of Gloucester, both of the Church of England, which spends more than £1 billion a year maintaining a community presence across the city and all over our country, and of other Churches would welcome the introduction of a gift aid “light” scheme, meaning light in administrative burden for smaller charities. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be a good idea, and would Her Majesty’s Treasury support it?
Tony Baldry
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. The plans being developed in Gloucester are extremely good ideas and we should like to encourage Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to move to a more streamlined system with an option for an online filing and accounting system. That would save time and money, not just for the Churches and charities but for HMRC.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Last year, gift aid that went to St Edmundsbury cathedral was 25% lower than the aid it received from the listed places of worship grant scheme. I am delighted that the Government have extended that scheme from March 2011, but could my hon. Friend tell me what steps will be taken to publicise that scheme much more widely, so that more of our English church heritage can be preserved?
Tony Baldry
It is extremely good news that Ministers in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have extended the scheme; that is very welcome. I think the hundreds of thousands of volunteers who raise money for the repair and refurbishment of churches up and down the country are very conscious of the VAT scheme on listed buildings and churches. My hon. Friend can rest assured that every diocese will be making sure that it is publicised in every parish.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman has acknowledged the importance of the gift aid scheme. Last week the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, in a reply to a question in this Chamber, indicated that some £4.5 million comes off the gift aid scheme. What discussions has the hon. Gentleman had with the Churches to ensure that the gift aid scheme can be increased, to ensure that they can then use that money for the work that they do?
Tony Baldry
The difficulty with the gift aid scheme at the present moment is that churches and parishes have to maintain enormous numbers of paper records, just in case there is any spot check from HMRC. It involves thousands of volunteer hours just to do so, and it would be perfectly possible to do it as effectively online, much more simply. That would be in everyone’s interests, not least those of HMRC. The Church and, I am sure, other charities will continue to pursue that with ministerial colleagues in the Treasury and with the Treasury itself.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
3. What account the Church Commissioners take of ethical criteria when making investments.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
7. What account the Church Commissioners take of ethical criteria when making investments.
Tony Baldry
The Church Commissioners are committed to managing our assets in a way that reflects the Church’s teaching and values and take advice on ethical investment policies from the Church’s ethical investment advisory group.
Fiona Bruce
How do the Church Commissioners use their substantial wealth to encourage responsible corporate practice?
Tony Baldry
My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue. The Church Commissioners seek positively to encourage responsible corporate practice by the businesses in which we invest. We are signatories to the United Nations principles for responsible investment. We vote our shares in line with the importance we attach to good corporate governance. We continuously discuss environmental, social and governance issues with our investment managers, and if ever we should have a concern about corporate practice in a company in which we invest, we engage with that company to seek to influence its corporate behaviour at board level.
Mr Jim Cunningham
What is the Church Commissioners’ attitude to arms deals, particularly the shady arms trade? What would be the commissioners’ attitude to that in terms of investment?
Tony Baldry
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we would not invest in companies that we thought were shady. For example, we disinvested from Vedanta Resources plc recently because of its treatment of tribal communities in India. There are a number of US companies that we have made a conscious decision not to invest in because of their involvement in cluster munitions systems. Wherever possible, if we think that someone is behaving in a shady way, we would hope to influence through engagement, and engagement as a potential investor takes the Church Commissioners into discussion with the boards of some of the world’s biggest companies.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that, when the Church is considering the use of its property investments, it has a charitable duty of care to the voluntary groups that may depend on the use of those properties?
Tony Baldry
Yes, of course, and I think that the Church will need to work out ways in which we can use Church property much more actively to engage with voluntary and community groups, as part of the big society initiative, which the Church has always supported and continues to support.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
4. What assessment the Public Accounts Commission has made of the adequacy of the National Audit Office’s resources to audit whether UK aid to other countries is spent in accordance with the Government’s development policies.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
6. What recent representations the Church Commissioners have made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on VAT relief on the repair of church buildings after March 2011.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave a few moments ago to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley).
Sarah Newton
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer, which will be very much appreciated in my constituency.
As one of Cornwall’s most visited landmarks, Truro cathedral inspires thousands of people each year with its architecture, music and faith. The cathedral’s future relies on a £4 million investment in a vision to restore and redevelop it. The savings in VAT will be significant. Will my hon. Friend join me in thanking volunteers up and down the country who, like those in my constituency, give their time and talent freely to fundraise for their places of worship?
Tony Baldry
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. For all the churches and cathedrals in this country, there are hundreds of thousands of volunteers giving hours and hours of voluntary time to maintain the fabric of our very important heritage to hand on to future generations. We should all be extremely grateful to them.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
8. What training and support the Church of England provides to those who become partners of Church of England vicars after their ordination.
Tony Baldry
When undertaking parish ministry, a curate and their family are able to access support from a number of people, including their bishop and their director of curate training.
Dr Huppert
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a massive asymmetry between the treatment of those who become partners pre-ordination and post-ordination? If the Church expects such partners to play an active role, it should try to ensure that those who join their partner post-ordination get at least equivalent training.
Tony Baldry
I think everyone recognises that being a vicar is not an easy job. Betjeman succinctly observed:
“When things go wrong it’s rather tame
To find we are ourselves to blame.
It gets the trouble over quicker
To go and blame things on the Vicar.”
Every clergyman deserves our full support for what they do in the community, and their spouses—whether pre-ordination or post-ordination—deserve our support, because they are often on the front line of helping parishioners in the community. I very much hope that if any clergy spouse does not feel that she is getting full support, she will get in touch with me and I will make jolly sure that her diocesan bishops and others ensure that she gets the support that she deserves.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
9. What recent assessment the Electoral Commission has made of the effectiveness of mechanisms to increase voter registration of and turnout by UK citizens who are resident abroad.
Public Bodies Reform
Tony Baldry Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend will know, the Oxford canal goes right through the heart of my constituency. Waterway users generally will welcome the opportunities provided by the setting up of a new waterways trust. However, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) made an important point when he asked what happens to existing British Waterways assets. Will they be transferred to a new waterways trust? Presumably, in this as in any other aspect of my right hon. Friend’s statement, Secretaries of State for the Departments concerned will be willing to answer written parliamentary questions about the detail of such matters. The changes provide an enormous opportunity for civil society to engage in the running and maintenance of our waterways.
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right on that. Secretaries of State will indeed be willing to answer detailed questions on exactly those issues. On many of the changes, complicated questions arise on the ownership of assets and where they will end up. The public bodies Bill will provide a power by secondary legislation to deal with asset distribution, and I am confident that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will have heard my hon. Friend’s concerns about British Waterways Board assets.
Individual Electoral Registration
Tony Baldry Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Mr Harper
The hon. Lady makes a good point. One of the reasons for the data-matching pilots is to enable electoral registration officers to identify people who may be eligible to vote but are not on the register. They can then focus their efforts on that. As I have said, there is evidence that specific procedures to target younger voters and others who are not currently on the register have been very successful in Northern Ireland.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
A significant number of United Kingdom citizens living overseas are entitled to vote, but at the last general election a not particularly significant proportion registered or, indeed, voted. How will my hon. Friend ensure that more of them are encouraged and able to register? Could UK embassies, high commissions and consulates be better used to encourage them to register individually?
Mr Harper
I have received and replied to a number of written questions along the same lines recently. The Government are considering those issues, and if we have proposals to present we will, of course, announce them to the House first.
Oral Answers to Questions
Tony Baldry Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
6. What recent representations he has received on proposals for the consecration of women as bishops.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
I have received numerous representations from people on all sides of the argument. I recently addressed the General Synod of the Church of England on this matter in York, and I have placed a copy of my statement in the Library.
Diana R. Johnson
Will the hon. Gentleman take a guess as to when he thinks we will have the historic first woman bishop in the Church of England? When does he think that will be?
Tony Baldry
The legislation completed its Report stage at York. It now has to go to all the 44 dioceses of the Church of England. If a majority of them agree, it will go back to General Synod, probably in 2012. If two thirds of each of the General Synod’s houses agree to it, I would then expect it to come here to the Ecclesiastical Committee and this House in 2013, and if this House agrees, we could see the appointment of the first woman bishop in 2014.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
As someone who considered entering the ministry but realised I had too many vices and not enough virtues, may I commend the life and ministry of women in the Church, but also ask my hon. Friend whether he agrees that the first appointment of a female bishop, which will undoubtedly happen soon, must be on merit rather than political correctness?
Tony Baldry
I am sure that all appointments in the Church of England, including that of the Second Church Estates Commissioner, are made on merit.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
8. When he expects the Church of England to consecrate its first woman bishop.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave a few moments ago.
Chris Bryant
As one who did go into the Church ministry and then discovered that I had plenty of vices, may I ask the hon. Gentleman to be a little more impatient about the issue of women bishops? To be honest, it felt as if he was saying, “Nearer and nearer draws the time”, but will it be the time that will surely come when we have women bishops, and why on earth does this legislation have to come back to this House? Surely the Church of England should be freed from the shackles of bringing its legislation here, so that we can move forward on this issue rather faster.
Tony Baldry
If the hon. Gentleman reads what I said to the General Synod, he will see that I made it clear that many of us want this legislation to come forward as speedily as possible, but we have to get it right. The reason it comes back here is that we have an established Church, and until such time as Parliament decides that we do not, we will continue to have an established Church.
Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I hope my hon. Friend will ask the Synod to recognise that the House welcomed the decision it took to trust women bishops to do the right things, rather than trying to force them into being second-class bishops.
Tony Baldry
I thank my hon. Friend for that. I made it clear in York at the General Synod that I did not think I could get through this House any legislation in which there was a scintilla of a suggestion of women bishops in any way being second-class bishops.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
9. What recent representations the Church Commissioners have made to the Government on public funding for the repair and restoration of cathedrals.
Tony Baldry
Church groups of all denominations are seeking to encourage and persuade the Government to continue the listed places of worship grant scheme, which enables a 100% refund of VAT on church buildings and repairs.
Hugh Bayley
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Yorkshire Forward, the Yorkshire regional development agency, was forced to withdraw a grant of £1 million toward the cost of restoring the great east window of York minster? Will the Church Commissioners make representations to the Government that funds withdrawn from RDAs should be made available to other regional or local bodies, and that funding applications to these bodies from cathedrals should still be supported?
Tony Baldry
I understand the point the hon. Gentleman makes. It is estimated that some £9 million is required to put York cathedral into good repair. Although funding has been coming forward—I understand that there is a grant application to the Heritage Lottery Fund, and the Wolfson Foundation has set up a fund for cathedral repairs—we will need to find money from all sorts of sources if we as a nation are to meet the responsibility of repairing these fantastic cathedrals, which are part of our national heritage.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Can my hon. Friend explain why two of the cathedrals in Scotland—Glasgow and Dunblane—are fully funded by the public purse, yet not a single cathedral in England is so funded?
Tony Baldry
The situation in Scotland is simply different from that here. As I said, we need to raise considerable sums of money—for Salisbury, Winchester and Lincoln cathedrals, and for York minster—but that will require a number of different sources of funding: part from the state, part from trusts and charities and part from private individuals.