Oral Answers to Questions
John Bercow Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
Will the Home Secretary join me in paying tribute to the work of special constables in tackling antisocial behaviour associated with alcohol? A group of special constables from Brixton are in the Gallery today. Between them they have put in more than 680 hours of voluntary work, and they are quite clear that the bulk of antisocial behaviour is associated with alcohol and/or drugs.
Mr Speaker
The sentiment is greatly appreciated, but just for future reference, we do not in this place refer to the Gallery, no matter how distinguished or worthy the people in it are.
Mrs May
I value the work done by special constables. There are many examples, like the one my hon. Friend cited, of special constables actively working in the community to reduce antisocial behaviour. Special constables do a good job all the time, so I would encourage more people to become special constables, which is a valuable way of volunteering and giving a great deal back to local communities.
Mr Speaker
I did not realise that the hon. Gentleman still had two thirds of his important question to go. I apologise for almost stopping him in his tracks, but I should know that nothing can stop the hon. Gentleman in his tracks.
Nick Herbert
I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about that matter. Such a payment is permissible under the current law. Tom Winsor has made recommendations in his independent review relating to the matter, which we are looking at carefully. I can understand that the people of north Yorkshire, and indeed more widely, would be concerned about this payment.
Riot (Damages) Act
John Bercow Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
I am very grateful to have the opportunity today to debate this issue, which is very important to my constituents and, I suspect, to many others in London. All of us in this House tonight, and others beyond, have insurance. We value our homes, our possessions and all the things we have worked hard to accumulate, and it is natural that we seek to protect them. Insurance exists to cover unforeseen events. Some events are more unforeseen than others. Although burglaries, house fires and floods are unfortunate in the extreme, they are all possibilities that insurance is intended to cover and they are, to some extent, foreseeable.
Living in a stable democracy such as ours, it is often easy to take the rule of law for granted. Last August, we saw that rule break down, with rioters destroying the homes and businesses of their neighbours, robbing them of not only their property, but their livelihood. In that context, it is the role of the police to maintain order, so it is to the police that we look when that has failed and we have paid the price for failure. Were the police and the state not to foot the bill, the costs would be passed to individuals and traders. That would result in rising premiums and entire communities losing out. It was not the fault of those who saw the riots, so it is right that the state helps to bring them back to a position where they can get on with their lives.
This evening, I wish to discuss four issues, the first of which is the overly bureaucratic and unprofessional manner in which the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 has been administered. The second is the hypocrisy of Ministers, the Mayor of London and even the Prime Minister himself in promising to support Tottenham’s riot damages—
Mr Speaker
Order. May I say to the right hon. Gentleman that he should not refer to identified Ministers using the word “hypocrisy”? He is a versatile individual and he has an extensive vocabulary. I am sure that he can find another way to make his point, and I trust that he will now do so.
Mr Lammy
I am grateful for that, Mr Speaker. May I therefore refer to the extreme inconsistency between the statements made to this House and the promises made to victims shortly after the riots by those I referred to, and what we actually see taking place?
The third issue I wish to discuss is that, under the coalition that champions the big society, philanthropic donations are now counted against riot compensation claims. Finally, I wish to draw attention to the differential treatment afforded to the Metropolitan police compared with that offered to police authorities in Merseyside, Manchester and Salford.
Although this debate draws on the experiences of riot victims in my constituency, I know for a fact that Members in other riot areas have been affected, and many are in the House as I speak. This is not the first time that compensation for riot victims has been discussed in the Commons. Some nine months ago, the Prime Minister made two promises, neither of which he has honoured. To the victims of the riots he proclaimed,
“we will help you repair the damage, get your businesses back up and running and support your communities.”
In the same debate, the Prime Minister promised that the Government would
“ensure the police have the funds they need to meet the cost of any legitimate claims”.—[Official Report, 11 August 2011; Vol. 531, c. 1053.]
Seven months later, the Leader of the Opposition pressed the Prime Minister, demanding that he provide proper, clear information about the processing of claims. I, for one, have heard nothing about that. The Prime Minister promised to put the process details in the House of Commons Library after that discussion with the Leader of the Opposition. I therefore ask the Minister when the Prime Minister intends to provide the House of Commons Library with that information.
Between 6 and 10 August 2011, more than 5,000 crimes were committed including five fatalities, 1,860 incidents of arson and criminal damage and 1,649 burglaries, 141 incidents of disorder and 366 incidents of violence against the person. In London alone, more than 171 residential and 100 commercial buildings were affected by fire at a cost of millions. The disturbances last August saw thousands of shops damaged and there were more than 3,800 claims under the Riot (Damages) Act in London alone, with liabilities estimated to be between £200 million and £300 million.
Some shop owners had insurance, of course, but others did not. In that regard the Act represents an important means of financial support. Sevill Hassan, who owns a hair salon on Tottenham High road, was away on holiday when the riots broke out in August. She returned to find her shop front damaged and equipment stolen and looted. She was between insurers at the time of the riots and had not yet sent off her cheque to her new insurer. Sevill did manage eventually to secure a £3,000 payment under the Act, but 18 months later she is still struggling to keep her business afloat.
Despite being labelled by many as arcane and out of date, the Riot (Damages) Act can and in many cases has helped victims of riots, particularly individuals and small businesses without a property insurance policy thanks to a clause added to the Act following the Brixton and Toxteth riots of 1981. Indeed, the Act was used as recently as 2001, following the Bradford riots, and so although the original Act might date back to 1886, there is no excuse for the Home Office’s failure to administer it in a clear and efficient way.
When one speaks to individuals and businesses who have submitted claims through the Act, its limitations become apparent. A number of the limitations relate to the manner in which it is administered and the majority could have been avoided or minimised had the insurance industry processed its own claims. Why have the Home Office and the Metropolitan police been unable to process their claims as successfully? Perhaps that is why, when representatives of the insurance industry went to the Home Office on 18 August, after the riots, they offered to do the job for the Met. Why was that offer from the Association of British Insurers and the industry rejected out of hand? The industry processes claims every day of the week, but the Department said, “Oh no, we can do it.” Nine months later, that has not happened.
Loss adjusters were appointed by the Home Office to manage claims. On making their claims, a number of individuals were treated insensitively by insurers and loss adjusters, many of whom failed to appreciate the devastating impact of the damage caused during the riots. Victims of the riots tell me that they were asked to provide receipts, and ask how they can do so when their business has burnt to the ground. That was the insensitivity shown to them. I have heard from traders in Tottenham who claim to have been treated like criminals, rather than victims of crime.
People with insurance were able to claim directly through their insurers, but in a constituency such as mine many people found themselves having to submit through the Act—if they were underinsured, for example. That is why this is so important. The Home Office did well to extend the period in which to make a claim from 30 to 42 days, following lobbying from the ABI. However, it took a long time to update the claim form from the 1800s. Many constituents were unable to understand the archaic language and the requirements, or did not know whether to use the form at all. As of 9 May, the Metropolitan police had received a total of 3,427 claims. Just over a quarter of those claims—912 of them—have been settled to date, and a total of just over £6 million has been paid out to victims. That works out at an average of just £7,000 per claim. There are 707 ongoing claims. I can only assume that the remaining 1,800 claims —52% of claims received—were rejected. I would be interested to know whether the Minister can reconcile the figures and say what has happened to the claims that have not been dealt with.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am afraid that we cannot have interventions from the Front Bench in a half-hour Adjournment debate.
Lynne Featherstone
There are two types of victim, the uninsured and the insured, although, as I will explain in more detail shortly, some overlap has been created by insurance companies repudiating claims, which can lead to further uninsured claims subsequently being submitted.
For the uninsured cases—those people who never had insurance—most of the claims originally made went to the Home Office bureau, which the Government set up in the wake of the riots in order to facilitate the process for individuals who were struggling to come to terms with the damage caused to their property and loss of possessions. The Home Office bureau received 1,261 cases. As of last week it had 68 cases left—about 5% of the original total. Of those cases, 39 have been classed as inactive. Despite repeated attempts to contact claimants or their representatives, no response has been received for a substantial period. The other 29 cases are largely waiting for documents to be submitted, which the bureau chases up regularly.
The bureau has rejected 837 cases and sent 356 to the police authorities to make decisions on payments. Typically, the reason the claims were rejected is that they were not within the scope of the Act, which covers business interruption losses, personal injury, and vehicle damage, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood). In some cases, the claims were rejected because individuals already had insurance cover.
Given that the number of cases with the bureau is now relatively small, the Policing Minister has agreed that the bureau will shortly cease operations. The small number of remaining cases will be passed to local police authorities, where a more co-ordinated approach will be taken to get them resolved in the local area. The police authorities originally received 480 claims, including the 356 sent to them by the Home Office bureau. I am pleased to announce that only 26 claims are left—that is 26 too many, but nevertheless that is down to 5%. Police authorities have rejected 159 claims and settled 295 cases.
That is not the complete picture of uninsured claims, because a number of cases were subsequently received, predominantly in the Metropolitan Police Service, where insurance companies had repudiated claims or refused to pay out because their assessed value of the claim was below the policy excess; a claim under the Act was then made directly to police authorities. A specific example of that is the case, raised by the Leader for the Opposition at Prime Minister’s questions, in which an uninsured claim was not received in the police authority until December 2011. A further delay then occurred as a result of documents not being sent to the police authority until late March, after which the claim was settled in a matter of days. Unfortunately, that case is not untypical, so the delay is not always on the part of the Home Office, the Home Office bureau or the police authority.
To return to the “new” uninsured claims, I can also report that good progress has been made in resolving those cases. The Metropolitan Police Service received 642 such cases and has 133 left. Around half those cases have been delayed due to documentation that has been requested by police authorities from claimants or their representatives not being submitted. Claims made to other police authorities are negligible. The category in which the greatest amount of payments remains outstanding relates to insurance companies. The Act provides for insurance companies to seek recompense from police authorities for the compensation they pay out to policyholders.
Immigration Queues (UK Airports)
John Bercow Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Damian Green
British and—I suspect my hon. Friend might not wish to hear this—other EU citizens have priority. We do fewer checks on them, for obvious reasons. Our service level agreement is that 95% of them should go through in fewer than 25 minutes, as opposed to 95% in fewer than 45 minutes for non-British and non-EU passengers. We try to make the welcome back to this country for British tourists or business people travelling abroad as good as possible.
Mr Speaker
I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. More particularly, I beg the right hon. Lady’s pardon. I am sorry. I had it down that she would be performing, but of course it would not be a normal day if we did not hear from the hon. Gentleman.
Chris Bryant
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I have to say to the Minister that his was a ludicrously complacent answer. Surely it cannot be beyond the wit of man, especially with increased technology, to do two things at the same time: secure the borders and have reasonably swift queues. The problems at Heathrow and Gatwick have given a shocking impression of a Government who are out of control, just when Britain is facing a special security challenge in advance of the Olympics and when the British tourism industry is keen to make as good an impression as possible. I gather that No. 10 is now blaming it on the weather.
The figures that the Minister gave are not the full story. Even before last week, between 1 April and 15 April, Border Force missed its waiting targets for non-European economic area nationals on 13 out of 15 days, and even for people returning home to their own country, it missed them on four days. There was not a single day in that two-week period when it met all its targets.
It might be understandable if long queues meant better security, but no airport in the world is designed to kettle thousands of passengers for hours prior to passing through immigration, which is why it is vital that the Government provide enough resources to Border Force.
Sir John Vine expressly recommended that a clear understanding of what constitutes health and safety grounds for suspension should be agreed. Has that happened? Have there been any such suspensions in the last month? I ask the Minister that because I have been contacted by one passenger who says that on arrival on a Kenya Airways flight from Nairobi to terminal 4, his passport was not swiped at all. How many UK or other European nationals have had to wait more than the target of 25 minutes?
Will most people not be perplexed by the Government’s priorities? They have already cut 500 border staff—they are going to cut another 1,000—while at the same time they are spending £2.5 million on new uniforms. How can that possibly be the right set of priorities? Numbers at Heathrow are set to rise, not only for the Olympics and Paralympics, but year on year into the future, yet Border Force is running at 100% capacity, with no room for the unexpected—and clearly the Government are running way past their capacity. Is it not time that the Government shouldered their responsibility and gave Border Force the resources it truly needs to do the job properly?
Mr Speaker
Order. It is always a great pleasure to hear the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames). Erroneously, however, I called two Government Members in succession, so I will subsequently call two Opposition Members in succession to redress the balance. [Interruption.] It is certainly not the fault of the right hon. Member, to whose dulcet tones I feel sure we listened with considerable enthusiasm.
Damian Green
If the rules can be relaxed for anyone, Mr Speaker, they should be relaxed for my right hon. Friend. I take the importance of what he says. It is of course annoying not just for British business men coming back, but for foreign business people who also want as smooth a procedure as possible. That is why we worked so hard to introduce the e-passport gates. With every year that passes, 10% more British people get a new modern passport that enables them to use those gates, which can often provide a considerable improvement in itself. This debate is bedevilled by anecdote, with everyone having an individual story to tell, either good or bad. My own is that I came through Heathrow last Thursday and used the e-gates. I am happy to say that from arriving in the immigration hall to leaving took precisely four minutes.
Mr Speaker
Order. I call Mr Richard Fuller. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman was previously interested, but he does not have to ask a question if he does not want to; it is not obligatory.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker, but the question I was going to ask has already been asked.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman is in danger of setting a real precedent: that because it has already been said, it does not need to be said again. That really is setting a new precedent in parliamentary practice! I call Mr Stewart Jackson.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
Given the news that next year Hungary will issue Hungarian passports to ethnic Hungarians who do not live in the European Union, I am somewhat surprised by the Minister’s rather nonchalant response to the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey). Why in this particular situation is it impossible for a sovereign nation to disaggregate in respect of its treatment between its own citizens and European Union citizens, and why are we not doing more, for instance on criminal records checks of EU citizens at our ports of entry?
Stephen Lawrence
John Bercow Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Speaker
Order. I am keen to accommodate the interest of colleagues, but doing so requires brevity, both in questions and in answers.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is vital for public confidence in the Metropolitan police that any instances of racist behaviour by individuals in the organisation should be dealt with and be seen to be dealt with?
James Brokenshire
As my hon. Friend will know, the Government are taking a number of different steps to create greater professionalism within the police service with the establishment of the new police professional body to lead work to develop professionalism and set standards for the service. Obviously, we will also look to the introduction of police and crime commissioners later this year to provide more direct accountability between the public and the police and to ensure that the police remain in close connection with the communities they seek to serve.
Mr Speaker
Patience is rewarded for the representative of Bermondsey and Old Southwark.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Will my hon. Friend confirm that he has got the message from London MPs and from others that although we absolutely applaud the new commissioner’s robust attitude, everybody now wants the new Mayor, whoever that will be, and the commissioner to refer independently for assessment the continuing racist allegations as regards the Lawrence case as well as other racist allegations? Does he agree that the best thing the Government can do is to ensure that every one of our 43 police forces in England and Wales better reflects the community it serves, particularly in the ethnic mix at the highest level?
Abu Qatada
John Bercow Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Yvette Cooper
On Tuesday, the Home Secretary told us that the deportation of Abu Qatada was under way; on Wednesday, it stopped. On Tuesday, she told us there would be no appeal to the Grand Chamber; on Wednesday, an appeal was under way. Yesterday, the Home Office said the appeal deadline was Monday night, but European Court officials said it was Tuesday night. So on the Tuesday night deadline, while Abu Qatada was appealing to European Court judges, the Home Secretary, who thought the deadline was Monday night, was partying with “X Factor” judges. [Interruption.] When the Home Secretary is accused of not knowing what day of the week it is, confusion and chaos have turned into farce. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The right hon. Lady has a right to be heard. Has she concluded her remarks, or does she wish to continue?
Mr Speaker
The right hon. Lady must be heard. There are strong feelings on this matter but opinions will be heard. If the exchanges are longer as a result, so be it, but Members must hear what one another has to say.
Yvette Cooper
This farce has serious consequences: additional delays, a greater risk that Abu Qatada will be put out on bail and a risk he will sue the Government. Did the Home Office get specific assurances from the European Court that the deadline was Monday night? If so, will it publish them? If not, why not? Why did it not pick up the phone to sort it out? The Home Office was told by journalists on Monday, nearly 24 hours before Abu Qatada was arrested, that European Court officials were saying that the deadline was Tuesday. Did it do anything about it?
I hope that the Home Secretary’s interpretation is right, but at best there is uncertainty, and several eminent lawyers now say that they agree with the European Court. So why take the risk? What was the harm in waiting until Wednesday? Why create a legal loophole for Abu Qatada’s lawyers to exploit? We all want Abu Qatada deported as soon as possible, under the rule of law, and kept off the streets in the meantime, but both those things are now less likely because of her actions. On Tuesday, I warned that there was a troubling level of confusion around this case, but even I did not imagine that the confusion was this great. When will she sort this out?
Mr Speaker
Order. Let us lower the temperature. I said that the shadow Home Secretary must be heard, and precisely the same principle applies to the Home Secretary. Let us hear what she has to say. [Interruption.] Order. Then I will allow a full opportunity, if necessary, for questions to follow.
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, which I think is fairly similar to previous questions that he has asked me on this issue. Let me assure him that I take this issue extremely seriously and I am absolutely clear that we want to deport Abu Qatada. However, I also made it absolutely clear in the House earlier this week that the Government must operate within the rule of law, and that a number of legal avenues would be available to Abu Qatada. It is no surprise that he is using delaying tactics to try to delay his deportation from this country. It is right to say that we need to reform the European Court of Human Rights, and that is exactly the work that is being undertaken by my right hon. and learned Friends the Justice Secretary—I think I inadvertently referred to him earlier as the shadow Justice Secretary; I beg his pardon—and the Attorney-General.
Mr Speaker
Speaking from personal experience, repeat questions are not an entirely novel phenomenon in the House of Commons.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I am beginning to think that the Home Secretary has form here. She has previously accused the European Court of Human Rights of rejecting a deportation because someone had a cat, and she is giving assurances today despite the cases of Otto and Praha, which make it quite clear that she has wrongly interpreted the deadline. My suspicion is that she is playing with this very serious case in order to whip up hostility to the European Court of Human Rights, which is an important protector of human rights in Britain.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Given some of the opportunistic nonsense that we have heard from Opposition Members, may I assure my right hon. Friend that she has the full support of Government Members? She will know—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I want to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman. As well as being the Member of Parliament for Sleaford and North Hykeham, he is a distinguished Queen’s counsel. Let us hear his views.
Stephen Phillips
My right hon. Friend will know that the European Court of Human Rights’ own practice direction on rule 39 indicates that rule 39 measures should be granted only in exceptional circumstances. Will she discuss with the Attorney-General whether it is now open to the Government to apply for removal of the rule 39 injunction, and indeed whether it is still in place, given the expiry of the time limit, which is so obvious to every Member on the Government Benches?
Mr Speaker
Order. In view of the intense interest in this subject on both sides of the House, I have allowed the urgent question exchanges to run longer than is customary. I am happy to try to accommodate remaining colleagues, but I appeal now for extreme brevity.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
May I suggest that if the Home Secretary wants to avoid being asked the same question again and again, she might answer it at the first time of asking? She has repeatedly said she is clear that the deadline was 16 April. She has not said, however, whether she was made aware that there could be uncertainty about that in the European Court. Was she made aware of that?
Mrs May
The role of the Court is obviously in upholding the European convention on human rights. It is important that we seek to ensure that the cases that the Court is taking are indeed appropriate to be heard by that Court, and of course that is part of the work that my right hon. and learned Friends are undertaking.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Home Secretary and to all 59 Members who were able to question her on this important matter.
Abu Qatada
John Bercow Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s pursuit of the deportation of Abu Qatada in compliance with the law. Given her assessment of the threat that he poses to national security, it is right to try to deport him as soon as possible and to return him to custody in the meantime to protect public safety.
I accept the Home Secretary’s apology for the late delivery of the statement, which I received only 10 minutes ago. Unfortunately, the Evening Standard clearly received the statement at 12.30 pm today, when it reported what she was to say in the House.
I understand that, as the Home Secretary said, SIAC is sitting as we speak, but none of the content of her statement appeared to be contingent on the conclusions of that court hearing, and there is a troubling level of confusion about today’s events that it would be very helpful for her to clear up.
I welcome many of the points that the Home Secretary made, although I have a series of continuing concerns. I welcome the assurances that she has obtained from Jordan. Previous agreements were in place, but she was right to pursue further assurances. I welcome, too, the arrest of Abu Qatada today as part of action through the courts to pursue deportation.
The Home Secretary will know that our concern remains that the Home Office should have acted faster after the European Court judgment in January, and that had we not had early drift and delay after that judgment, Abu Qatada might not have been released in the first place. When I asked her in February, several weeks after the judgment, whether she had had personal contact with Jordan after the European Court ruling, she had not been to Jordan at that point, nor did she go for a further four weeks. Indeed, the court that gave Abu Qatada bail cited as one of its reasons that there was no sign of progress in getting a deal with Jordan. Indeed, the court said:
“I do not know precisely what the Secretary of State has in mind. Indeed, the negotiations are only at the earliest of stages.”
It is therefore very welcome that the Home Secretary has now got further reassurances from Jordan, which are important and I hope will be sufficient, and it is welcome that she is taking action today, but three important sets of questions remain.
First, can the Home Secretary set out how long this will take? Does she expect to deport Abu Qatada in weeks, months or years? She has previously told the House that she hoped to deport him by the Olympics. Does she believe that she is on track to do so? The media appear this afternoon to be reporting that Abu Qatada is expected to be on a plane by the end of April. Does she believe that that will happen or that it is realistic?
Can the Home Secretary also confirm that the action that she has taken today is simply to start the deportation process again from the beginning by going back to SIAC? Can she confirm that she has decided not to conclude the previous deportation proceedings, which started in 2007, by going to the Grand Chamber, and decided instead to start the process again by going back to square one and to SIAC today?
The Home Secretary and I would agree that the process that started in 2007 has been way too long. The British and European courts should be faster, and reforms are needed to deal with the delays. We are happy to work with her on discussing that. However, I continue to be concerned by her confidence that she has taken the fastest route today. She has said that the route that she is taking is quicker than going to the Grand Chamber. Can she confirm, however, that the process that she has started today is still potentially subject to a whole series of appeals throughout the British court process, or to Abu Qatada and his lawyers taking the matter to the European Courts or the Grand Chamber again? Although she has decided that simply going through the final stage in the process is too long and is ditching the Grand Chamber, in fact she may be starting from scratch a process that will still have the Grand Chamber at the end of it.
We understand, too, that the Home Secretary believes it is too risky to appeal to the Grand Chamber. I understand that she will have had legal advice on that, and I do not want her to pursue an unwise and risky process, but we equally want her to pursue the fastest possible safe process to get Abu Qatada deported. May I therefore ask her to share with the chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee and the Opposition, on Privy Council terms, the detail of that legal advice, so that we can understand the judgment that she has reached on not going to the Grand Chamber as the fastest way to get Abu Qatada deported?
Finally, we need to know what safeguards are being put in place in the meantime. We understand that the special court is meeting as we speak, but also that it has been suspended this afternoon. Has the Home Office asked for Abu Qatada to be returned to custody? The Home Secretary did not make that clear in her statement. On the basis of what we know about the case I believe that would be the right thing for the Home Office to do. However, she will know that as Abu Qatada has already been released on bail, there is a significant risk that the court will decide either today or at a future date to continue with bail. It remains, therefore, a serious concern that Home Office delays in January and February led to Abu Qatada being released in the first place, and are also making it harder to return him to prison now.
Given reports that Abu Qatada has been in contact with extremists in Jordan while out on bail, the Home Secretary needs to set out what safeguards she will put in place if the courts do not agree to bail. There are also reports of chaos at the SIAC hearing as we speak. Those proceedings have been held up and we understand that lawyers are being scrambled to court. The BBC is reporting that the hearing is a “bit of a mess”. Can she confirm that the hearing has been properly applied for and planned rather than cobbled together in a rush in order that it sits at the same time as the House?
There is something a little odd about the timing and confusion. We are debating Abu Qatada without knowing what the courts will decide this afternoon and what action the Home Secretary will need to take next. [Interruption.] Will she therefore agree to return this House—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber. May I just say to the shadow Home Secretary that I think she is bringing her remarks to a close?
Yvette Cooper
Will the Home Secretary agree to return to the House this afternoon or tomorrow morning if the court does not agree to revoke Abu Qatada’s bail and return him to custody, so that we can hear what action she will take and what safeguards she will put in place?
I hope Abu Qatada will be back behind bars by tonight in line with the security assessment that the Home Secretary and the courts have previously made, and that we have a clear and reliable timetable for his deportation to Jordan. I hope we will not be back to square one. There was too much drift earlier this year and we have had a troubling level of confusion this afternoon. Will she assure the House that she is in control of events, and that the deportation everyone wants to see is back on track?
Mr Speaker
Order. I am keen, if at all possible, to accommodate all remaining colleagues, but to do so I require brevity, which exercise will be led by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone).
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I am sure the residents of the Kettering constituency would want me to congratulate the Home Secretary on her tremendous efforts to deport this wretched man. Reassuringly, she said she would look at how France, Italy and other countries do this sort of thing rather faster. Who is going to lead that review, and when will they report?
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
I obviously welcome the statement and I admire the Home Secretary’s persistence in this case, but I believe it is a huge waste of her time to have to spend so much time trying to rid the country of this particular individual. There are now a number of cases where our national security is under threat because of rulings from a foreign court whose judgments undermine both confidence in the judiciary and human rights in general. I know reform of the Court is high on the agenda, and we would all like to see that, but you mentioned the Bill of Rights in your statement. May we please speed up the timetable for that, so we have it in place as soon as possible?
Mr Speaker
I should just mention that I did not mention the Bill of Rights at all, but somebody did, and I think we are about to hear from her.
Mrs May
Yes, I did refer to the Bill of Rights, and as my hon. Friend will know, my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary has set up a commission to look into this whole question of a Bill of Rights. It will report in due course. As I have said, I am looking into how we can ensure that we can deport people who are a risk to our national security, and have a speedier and more secure process of doing so than we currently have.
Mrs May
It has been the clear view of this Government for some time that we need to bring about reform of the European Court in a number of areas. That work has been undertaken in recent months. As I said, the Brighton conference, under the chairmanship of my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary, will consider the action that can be taken to reform the European Court. As a Government, and in the Home Office, we will consider the systems we have in place to see whether we can learn anything from other countries to provide us with a swifter means of deporting those who are a threat to our national security.
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
I am very grateful to you for calling me, Mr Speaker. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her statement and on the leadership she has shown on this issue, which is to be commended. Is she aware that my constituents believe that this case has gone on for far too long, that it needs a speedy resolution and that until we can get rid of this Abu Qatada, he should stay behind bars? My constituents are also looking for radical reform so that this cannot happen again.
Point of Order
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Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Home Secretary said that it was not a good idea to warn Abu Qatada that he was about to be arrested, which obviously prompts one to ask whether he would then have been able to abscond. She maintains that that is why she could not tell the House first and suggested that there had been no briefing to the media, but the precise words in the Evening Standard, which was published before the House sat today, are:
“A deportation order to send Abu Qatada to Jordan and allow him to be put back behind bars will be issued within days, Home Secretary Theresa May said today”—
not “will say today” or “in the next few days,” but “said today”. That was published before she came into the House and before the House sat. It goes on in precise terms to detail every single element of what the Home Secretary has said to the House this afternoon.
Mr Speaker, will you investigate precisely why and how this came to pass? Surely, at least on matters of national security, about which the public need to have confidence in the Government and parliamentary process, Parliament should hear first. Will you also confirm that if Mr Qatada is not under detention at the end of today it is perfectly possible for the Home Secretary to return to the House to explain why not?
Mr Speaker
I will rule on that, but as the hon. Gentleman has raised a point of order that relates directly to the Home Secretary and she is in her place, she has the opportunity to respond if she wishes to do so.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I assure the House that I gave no such briefing to the press in relation to this. In response to the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) that the Special Immigration Appeals Commission had not been properly informed, I made the point that the number of people who were aware that the arrest was about to take place was limited. I understand, however, that there were a number of journalists outside Abu Qatada’s house, as there have been at various stages in the past three months. Therefore, when action was taken it was only to be expected that that information would be available to the media.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am happy to respond to the point of order from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). First, I have had no opportunity to make any direct comparison between the text reported in the Evening Standard and the content of the Home Secretary’s statement. Secondly, as has already been said, it is commonplace for there to be heavy media speculation in circumstances of this kind.
Thirdly, I take this opportunity forcefully to underline the crucial importance of statements of this kind, and indeed all significant statements of Government policy, being made first to the House. The Home Secretary did me the courtesy of contacting me over the weekend and we discussed her desire to make a statement today. Of course, I pointed out that it was extremely important if the statement was not to be made until Tuesday that nothing of it emerged in advance into the public domain, to which proposition I know she readily agreed. I do not think I can say more than that now, but these things must first be revealed to the House and not outside. Although of course there are many actors on the stage, not least within Departments and other organisations, Ministers are responsible for everything that is said by those within their Department. I know that that is a responsibility of which the Home Secretary will be keenly conscious.
Alcohol Strategy
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Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the Home Secretary. I am a little concerned about the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who I fear is suffering from compulsive chuntering disorder. I know that he will now calm himself, and we look forward to hearing from him eloquently and possibly at length on other occasions.
Mrs May
Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I was saying to the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), we have already been working with the industry to ensure that changes can take place. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health has done a lot of work on that. It will lead to 1 billion units of alcohol being taken out by 2015, and 35 companies have signed up to that deal.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am happy to take a few more questions but extreme brevity is required because there is extensive interest in the Budget debate, to which I know the House will wish shortly to return.
Mr Speaker
Order. The two remaining Members who wish to ask a question could compete with each other to see which is the briefer.
Martin Vickers
The people of Cleethorpes will broadly support the announcement. However, there will be concerns that, once again, the law-abiding majority are being penalised. Will the Home Secretary assure me that the police will use existing and new powers to the maximum, and that courts will ensure a robust approach?
Mrs May
This would never have been brought out in the Budget because this is a cross-Government strategy which deals with a variety of issues that are not matters for the Budget. The hon. Lady is right to say what an important issue this is. That is why the Government have been working across Departments to produce for the first time a comprehensive strategy which, I hope—it is the intention—will deal with the sort of problem that she has rightly raised and recognised.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the Home Secretary and colleagues. We return to the Budget debate.
Oral Answers to Questions
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James Brokenshire
The hon. Lady referred to a specific case which she is no doubt aware the forensic science regulator is investigating. There is absolutely no indication that the case is linked in any way to the transition of services from the Forensic Science Service to commercial providers. She highlighted the need for certain electronic records to be maintained; as part of that transition, electronic records held by the FSS will transfer to the National Policing Improvement Agency by the end of this month. She asked about innovation; it is still very much part of the work that we are looking to forensics providers to do. That is why that is in the contract, and why we will follow through on recommendations.
Mr Speaker
We do need to speed up a bit. If the Minister could provide slightly shorter answers, that would be helpful to the House.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
In 1999, Michael Weir was convicted of the murder of Mr Harris. The only link to that crime was DNA found on a glove of Michael Weir’s. Michael Weir’s DNA was taken after he was arrested on a drugs-related charge that had been discontinued two years earlier; he had been discharged. Will the Minister confirm that under the Government’s new plans for DNA retention, Michael Weir’s DNA sample would no longer have been on the database, and Mr Harris’s murderer would never have been brought to justice?
Damian Green
As a former journalist and, indeed, a former member of the NUJ, I have every sympathy with journalists whose lives are put in danger. [Interruption.] The shadow Immigration Minister should not dwell on the fact that his Government organised for me to be arrested, because it was not their finest hour. I suggest that he withdraw that remark.
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful to the Minister. He is many things, but not, to my knowledge, a journalist. I am sure that he has concluded his answer.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
11. What steps she is taking to tackle hate crime.
James Brokenshire
I accept absolutely my hon. Friend’s point about the need for strong enforcement, and I am sorry to hear of the problems experienced at Forty Hall in his constituency. A report was published today about threats to heritage sites. We have put forward £5 million for enforcement, which is already bearing fruit, with enforcement action taking place. For example, in the north-east more than 300 police officers and law enforcement personnel have visited scrap metal yards, £900,000 in cash has been seized, and a further operation—
Mr Speaker
Order. That is very informative, but I say to the Minister that it would be helpful if we could make some progress. Reading out great screeds just slows things down. It is quite straightforward, really.
Caroline Nokes
Last month, a bronze eagle statue was stolen from the memorial garden at the museum of Army flying in Middle Wallop in my constituency. The statue was placed there to commemorate brave Army aviators who had served their country. What discussions has my hon. Friend had with the Ministry of Justice about sentencing guidelines for those who desecrate memorials to our servicemen and women?
Mr Speaker
Order. We have been somewhat delayed by the length of ministerial replies, but I am interested in hearing Back Benchers, so we will now hear Mr Gordon Henderson.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
13. What discussions she has had with police officers on the powers they need to deal with repeated antisocial behaviour in residential areas.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
In the light of the discussions last week—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but he deserves to be heard in an atmosphere of quietude.
Sir Menzies Campbell
In the light of the discussions last week between the Prime Minister and the President of the United States about extradition, is the Home Secretary now in a position to tell the House when she expects to respond to the Baker report?
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Major serious and organised crime knows no geographical boundaries, so will my right hon. Friend congratulate the five east midlands police forces on coming together and collaborating in order to tackle this menace more effectively and to save the taxpayer £26 million over the next four years?
Points of Order
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Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will be aware that, last Thursday, a document—Cabinet papers from 1989 on the Hillsborough disaster—was leaked to the BBC. Many believe that the leak could only have come from a senior politician or a senior civil servant, or that the BBC itself must have had access to this sensitive documentation. There have also been suggestions that there may well be further leaks on a “drip, drip” basis, which will undermine the work of the Hillsborough independent panel. Given the urgency—
Mr Speaker
Order. I intend no discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman. What I am seeking to establish is: what is the point of order for the Chair? That is the question.
Steve Rotheram
Given the urgency of the situation, Mr Speaker, perhaps you can offer me guidance on the most appropriate parliamentary mechanism to ensure that as many Members as possible have the opportunity, and sufficient time, to debate the intricacies of such a complex issue.
Mr Speaker
There are a number of answers to the hon. Gentleman’s point of order. First, I do not give procedural advice to Members from the Chair. Secondly—as one wag has just observed from a sedentary position—it is open to the hon. Gentleman to consult the Standing Orders, and he could probably do so to his advantage. Thirdly, my genuine and constructive advice to the hon. Gentleman is that he should consult the Table Office about the variety of parliamentary devices that could be available to him, and could enable him further and better to pursue the matter.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Given the serious allegations that were made in the revelations referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), should a Minister not come to the House and explain that those allegations against the Liverpool fans at Hillsborough are themselves scandalous?
Mr Speaker
I understand the very great strength of feeling on this matter, but I have ruled on the point of order. I respect the seniority and service of the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr Speaker
If the Home Secretary wishes to oblige, that is exceptionally obliging of her.
Mrs May
I do not intend to respond to the point made by the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), but I think it would benefit the House if I made it clear that a leak inquiry has been initiated by the Cabinet Office. I share the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) in his point of order about the impact that a leak of this sort will have on what is a very sensitive matter in the context of ensuring that the full information is put together by the Hillsborough panel, and I believe that the information in any documents should be shown to the families first and should not be leaked to the press in any form. I repeat that the Cabinet Office is undertaking a leak inquiry.
Mr Speaker
That was both helpful and courteous of the Home Secretary, and the House is immensely grateful to her.