Oral Answers to Questions

Michael Moore Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

1. What recent representations he has received on the provisions of the Scotland Bill.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

On 21 March, I tabled a written ministerial statement to confirm that agreement had been reached with the Scottish Government on the Scotland Bill. The Scottish Government have tabled a legislative consent memorandum recommending that the Scottish Parliament support the Bill, and Members of the Scottish Parliament will vote later today.

[Mrs McGuire]

The new Scotland Bill will pass significant powers to the Scottish Parliament, including those relating to tax. Among the representations that the Secretary of State has received, has there been a request from the First Minister to work jointly with him to highlight and promote those new powers, to show that we can maximise devolution while maintaining the integrity and strength of the partnership of the United Kingdom?

[Michael Moore]

The right hon. Lady will not be surprised to hear that I have not received a representation on that particular subject. I agree with her that the Scotland Bill is a significant piece of legislation; it represents the most significant transfer of financial powers from London to Edinburgh since 1707. After the agreement on the legislative consent memorandum and, I hope, their lordships’ approval of the Bill’s Third Reading, we must quickly get on with its implementation in the right way, to show that devolution works, and works well for Scotland.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

The Scottish Government and the majority of Members of the Scottish Parliament believe that the Scotland Bill could have been significantly improved, through the inclusion of job-creating powers among others, but that has not happened. Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to confirm that the UK Government have agreed to safeguards ensuring that the Scottish Parliament will need to be satisfied that funding arrangements will not be detrimental?

[Michael Moore]

I have a very different view of the future of Scotland from that of the right hon. Gentleman; I want to see Scotland continue to be a strong part of the United Kingdom. On his specific question, I am pleased that the Scottish Government have now accepted the Scotland Bill. We have worked carefully together to ensure that we have the right measures in place to implement it carefully for all the people of Scotland.

[Angus Robertson]

Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that, in the wake of the historic Scottish National party victory last year, every single political party is now miraculously in favour of more powers being devolved than are currently contained in the Scotland Bill? Which further powers does he want to see being exercised in Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

Once again, we are seeing fantastic diversionary tactics from the right hon. Gentleman. He never talks about independence. Why not? Because his party cannot answer the fundamental questions about it. I am delighted that he wants to work with us, and I can tell him that devolution has always worked on the basis that we promote ideas, reach consensus and implement them. The debate on devolution will continue, but we must resolve the issue of independence. Why does he not want to get on with that debate?

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

2. How many meetings he had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the two weeks preceding his financial statement of 21 March 2012 on the effect of the Budget on Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

I have regular meetings with senior Cabinet Ministers, including my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which a wide range of issues are discussed. This includes the period in the run-up to Budget 2012.

[John Robertson]

I thank the Secretary of State for his answer, although I have my doubts about whether he did have any such meetings. Anyway, there are more families losing their tax credits and more pensioners set to be affected by the granny tax in Glasgow than there are millionaires who will be affected by the mansion tax in the whole of Great Britain. Is that what he calls the Liberal Democrats speaking up for Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman just cannot get the Labour party off the hook of the mess that it left the economy in at the end of the last Parliament. We are having to sort out the biggest deficit in peacetime history and get ourselves on the path to sustainable growth. We have had to take some tough decisions, but I am proud of the fact that, because of the measures in the Budget, more Scots will be taken out of income tax altogether and pensioners will receive the biggest cash increase in their pensions that they have ever had, in contrast to the insult of the Labour party’s 75p increase.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

Did my right hon. Friend or the Chancellor receive any Budget representations from the Scottish Government about the financial consequences of Scotland separating from NATO?

[Michael Moore]

Funnily enough, we did not.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

In the discussions that the Scottish Secretary had in the run-up to the Budget, did he make a case for re-profiling capital investment for funding shovel-ready projects, which would be the most effective thing we could do to build gross domestic product growth, or did he simply roll over, have his tummy tickled and accept the tax cut for millionaires?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman should reflect carefully on the case he is trying to make. Perhaps, in a rare moment of generosity, he would welcome the fact that since the spending review, we have announced £1 billion of further spending allocations to the Scottish Government. We are continuing to create the conditions for sustainable growth to support businesses, and in Dundee there are now enterprise zones that get 100% capital allowances. I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would welcome that.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

In Argyll and Bute the high price of fuel is doing damage to businesses and people’s incomes, because of the long distances people by necessity have to travel. Will the Secretary of State please have a word with the Chancellor and encourage him to cancel, if the price of fuel remains high, the August fuel duty increase?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is a consistent campaigner on this issue, and I am always happy to have discussions with him about it. I hope that he, like me, would recognise that as a result of the measures we have taken, we have provided a cut of 10p on fuel relative to what Labour was proposing, and provided support to remote rural communities in Scotland as well.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State tell us the last time he ate a hot bridie? Did he discuss with the Chancellor the impact of taxation on hot bridies, and does he recognise that his Front-Bench colleague looks as if he has eaten a lot of hot bridies recently?

[Michael Moore]

I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman was above such personal attacks. My own preference is for fish and chips. He will know that there are plenty of places in Galashiels and elsewhere where a fine fish supper can be had. We have had to take tough decisions, but have made sure that everything is fair on that particular front.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in difficult economic times it is vital for the Government to help people on low incomes by cutting their taxes and taking the lowest paid out of tax, which is in stark contrast to the last Labour Government, who doubled the 10p tax rate, hitting the lowest paid the hardest?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Our priority in difficult times must be to give help to people on low and middle incomes—the earners who need the most support. Because of that, more than 160,000 Scots will be out of income tax altogether, and millions more will pay less tax. That is the right way to approach this.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

May I begin with a quote?

“The simple equation is that we think the priority is to help those on the lowest incomes. Clearly that is going to have to be paid for and we think it is fair that those who have the broadest shoulders should be the ones to contribute to that.”

Can the Secretary of State tell us which Cabinet member said that about the recent Budget?

[Michael Moore]

The important point is that in the very difficult economic circumstances that we inherited from the hon. Lady’s Government, we must fix the deficit, get the economy on the right track and in doing so make decisions that help the lowest paid and middle-income earners. That is what we are doing by taking people out of tax altogether and by ensuring that we reduce the tax burden on others.

[Margaret Curran]

I am surprised that the Secretary of State did not even recognise a quote from himself. He should know that the Resolution Foundation has confirmed that cuts to tax credits will dwarf any gains from an increase in personal tax allowances—so he needs to stop using that argument. Will he tell us why he has changed his position since he last spoke to the Evening Standard, when more than 400,000 Scottish pensioners are going to be hit by the granny tax and more than 84,000 families in Scotland will have lost all their tax credits, while at the same time his Budget has given 16,000 of the richest Scots a massive tax cut? Will the Secretary of State finally admit that this Budget has hit Scotland hard and has done more for millionaires than for hard-working families? When will he stop being a Tory front man and stand up for working people in Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

The last Labour Secretary of State, who has now joined the hon. Lady on the Front Bench, said that Labour had to be credible on the economy and on the financial regime, but it is not being credible in the proposals it is making. I stand by my comments. My intention and that of my colleagues with this Budget is to ensure that we provide support to the lowest and middle-income earners and that those on the highest earnings pay their way. Through the abolition of tax reliefs, we will ensure that they do.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

3. What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the funding formula for Scotland.

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[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

8. What assessment his Department has made of the responses to its consultation on the proposed referendum on independence for Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The Government published their response on 4 April. The responses to the consultation gave strong endorsement to a referendum involving a single, clear question on independence, overseen by the Electoral Commission, using the same franchise as that used to elect the Members of the Scottish Parliament, and held sooner rather than later.

[Alun Cairns]

Does my right hon. Friend agree with the consensus established by the responses to the consultation, which is that people do not want to wait 1,000 days to exercise their votes in a referendum?

[Michael Moore]

This is a fundamentally important decision, the most important that we as Scots will make in our lifetimes, and the longer it is delayed, the greater the uncertainty will be. The sooner we can get on with resolving the process and the question, the better.

[Amber Rudd]

Do the responses of the consultation reflect my view that there should be a simple “yes or no” question in any referendum if we are to secure a decisive outcome for Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. We must not muddle the issue of independence with a separate debate on the future of devolution. Today we mark another important milestone in the development of the Scotland Bill. What we want after its enactment—assuming that we receive their lordships’ support—is a clear decision on the future of our country, and for it to stay in the United Kingdom.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Does the Secretary of State wish to take this opportunity to thank the Labour party for providing his meagre consultation with more than a quarter of the responses? I suppose that that adds a new meaning to the term “Labour block vote”. Can he tell us how many other responses he received from the Labour website with a slightly amended text, and why the Labour party is doing all the groundwork for his Tory-led Government’s consultation?

[Michael Moore]

It should hardly be a surprise to the hon. Gentleman that political parties want to take part in consultations. This is an intensely political process. Even this morning, there was a pre-prepared script on the Scottish National party website inviting people to respond to the SNP’s consultation, so SNP Members should be a wee bit careful about the argument they are trying to make.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

Some 70% of respondents to the UK consultation felt that 2014 was too long to wait to decide Scotland’s constitutional future. Businesses and financial institutions in my constituency have made it clear that this state of limbo is damaging the economy in Scotland. Has the Secretary of State received similar representations from businesses elsewhere in Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady is entirely right to draw this issue to the attention of the House and to highlight that across Scotland and the UK, businesses, like individuals, want answers. We need to resolve this hugely important issue sooner rather than later, so we do not lose out on investment in jobs and we understand our future within the UK.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

5. How many people in Scotland will be affected by the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s proposal to withdraw the additional personal allowance for people over 65 years of age.

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[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

6. What assessment his Department has made of the implications for the currency used in Scotland of a vote in favour of independence for Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

We are confident that people in Scotland will continue to support the United Kingdom in any referendum. It is the Scottish Government who are proposing independence and they must answer for the implications of their proposals, including on currency matters.

[Julian Smith]

Is it not the case that the weight of legal opinion suggests that an independent Scotland would become an European Union accession state and would therefore be obliged to join the euro?

[Michael Moore]

The Scottish National party is changing its position on what currency it wishes to adopt and how it would go about this. There is no doubt that the SNP needs to answer some hard questions on this matter and resolve, for us all, what an independent Scotland would look like. I think that Scotland is better off in the UK.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that a separate Scotland would have to create its own currency, join a weaker euro or make its biggest business partner its biggest business competitor, with the Bank of England setting its interest rates, its spending limits and its borrowing limits. Does this not show the incoherence of the SNP’s economic policies?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to point out that even in its best moments, when it tries to offer us some detail, the SNP does not resolve what a monetary union with the rest of the UK might look like, how it would deal with the fiscal rules and the regulatory environment or whether the Bank of England would be the lender of last resort. I think that Scotland deserves some answers on those points.

[Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that if an independent Scotland were to use the pound sterling, that would require conditions that cannot be known now? Indeed, that is one of a growing number of issues that are unknown and unknowable, and it shows how uncertain Scotland’s future would be if it left the United Kingdom.

[Michael Moore]

My right hon. Friend is entirely right that when given the opportunity, the SNP ducks giving the answers to all these hard questions, because it does not have those answers.

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[Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)]

11. What powers would be devolved to Scotland under devo-max.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

Devo-max is a term used by the Scottish Government with no clear definition. This Government are focused on delivering the Scotland Bill, which will represent the largest transfer of fiscal powers to Scotland since the Act of Union in 1707.

[Mr Allen]

Does the Secretary of State agree that devo-max is a wonderful idea for Scotland and will he therefore discuss with some of his Cabinet colleagues extending that wonderful idea to the regions and localities of England?

[Michael Moore]

It is always dangerous for a Scot to enter into the constitutional debate in England but there is a lively debate to be had. The important thing today is that we acknowledge the important next steps we are taking in Scotland through the real proposals in the Scotland Bill which are due to get the consent of the Scottish Parliament and, I hope, their lordships next week. That will put us on track for the biggest development in devolution since 1998.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Scottish Law Reform

Michael Moore Excerpts

Tuesday 17th April 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

I am publishing today a consultation paper that sets out the proposed reform of Scots law on two topics: unincorporated associations and criminal liability of partnerships.

The consultation document seeks views on two topics: first, the proposal to attribute legal personality to non-profit making unincorporated associations where they meet certain statutory criteria; and secondly, reform of the law on criminal liability of dissolved Scottish partnerships and their partners, with the principal intention to address a loophole in Scots law that allows Scottish partnerships to escape prosecution for potentially serious offences by dissolving.

The main proposals for unincorporated associations are that becoming a Scottish Association with Legal Personality (SALP) should not be dependent on any registration requirement and that office-bearers and members will not incur any personal liability by acting as an office-bearer or member. Accordingly, SALPs will have limited liability.

The proposals are based on work by the Scottish Law Commission which led to a report and draft Bill in 2009 on reforming the law on unincorporated associations in Scotland and a report and draft Bill in 2011 on reforming the law on criminal liability of dissolved Scottish partnerships.

The commission has indicated that it supports the consultation process and will continue to work with the UK Government to finalise a Bill that it is hoped will come before Parliament within its current term.

Scotland Bill

Michael Moore Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The Scotland Bill is a significant step forward in Scottish devolution. It provides for the biggest transfer of fiscal power from London since the creation of the United Kingdom—including a new Scottish rate of income tax, full devolution of stamp duty land tax and landfill tax, and new borrowing powers. Together, the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) forecast that these measures will enable the Scottish Government to raise between £5 billion and £6 billion of their budget in addition to around £4 billion they currently raise in council tax and non-domestic rates.

Since its introduction in November 2010, the Bill has had detailed scrutiny in the UK and Scottish Parliaments. In Westminster, it has passed successfully through its Commons stages and will soon complete Lords Committee consideration. In Holyrood, the Scottish Parliament voted overwhelmingly in support of the Bill last March.

After productive discussions with the Scottish Government in recent weeks, the Government are today announcing a package of measures in the Bill and supporting non-legislative arrangements to show that the powers will operate in a fair and sustainable way to the benefit of Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Agreement has been reached with the Scottish Government on both the finance and non-finance provisions included in the Bill and the Scottish Government will today table a legislative consent memorandum recommending that the Scottish Parliament votes in support of the Bill on a further legislative consent motion for the Bill.

Today’s announcement provides more detail about the operation of the new tax and borrowing powers and about the non-finance elements of the Scotland Bill. The Government are committed to:

Transferring tax and borrowing powers transparently

The Government will ensure that changes in the Scottish Government’s budget are closely linked to the performance of their economy by adjusting Scotland’s budget to reflect new tax powers using the model recommended to the Welsh Assembly in the Holtham report. This approach, agreed with the Scottish Finance Minister and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, will help protect the Scottish Government’s budget from wider macro-economic shocks.

The Government will work together with the Scottish Government over coming months and years to give operational effect to the powers including the block grant adjustment, in a fair and sustainable way and should reach agreement on all implementation issues.

The Scotland Bill will be amended to require the Secretary of State for Scotland and Scottish Ministers to produce annual reports to the UK and Scottish Parliaments on the progress of transferring the tax and borrowing powers to the Scottish Government.

In line with long-standing principles of devolved funding, the Scottish Government will pay for their new income tax system of administration. The Government will explore the scope to offset some of the savings from HMRC ceasing its administration of stamp duty land tax and landfill tax.

Ensuring the new borrowing regime is sustainable

Borrowing limits will be reviewed regularly ahead of spending reviews through the Joint Exchequer Committee.

The Scottish Government will be given access to loans over a longer period in principle, subject to the ability to repay and the type of asset.

The Government will shortly launch a consultation on the Scottish Government issuing their own bonds.

Further devolution in the future

Aggregates Levy will be devolved once the legal challenges in the European and UK courts have been fully resolved.

The Government are open to considering what further powers might be devolved

after a referendum on independence.

Non-finance elements of the Scotland Bill

The clauses reserving the regulation of health professions and insolvency will be removed, following assurances from the Scottish Government that they will work closely with the Government to ensure consistent regulatory regimes apply to health professions and that insolvency procedures are kept up to date and operate effectively throughout the UK.

The clause allowing partial referral of Acts of the Scottish Parliament to the Supreme Court will be removed at the request of the Scottish Government. This means in the future—as at present—a full Act could be referred to the Supreme Court, even if only a single provision raised competence issues.

The clause on implementing international obligations will be removed following assurances from the Scottish Government that they will work closely with the Government to ensure that the UK continues at all times to implement its international obligations. If there is a failure to implement any international obligation the UK Government may use their powers under s.58 (2) of the Scotland Act to direct Scottish Ministers.

Additional amendments will be made to the provisions on appeals to the Supreme Court from Scottish criminal cases. A certification requirement will not be introduced. However, the new arrangements will be subject to a review, chaired by the Lord Justice General of Scotland, after three years of operation. Certification will be included within the scope of the review, and it will be possible for changes to be made to the arrangements by subordinate legislation following the review.

These announcements today meet the tests the Government have set for changes to the Bill package—they are based on evidence, maintain the cross-party consensus which supports the Bill, and will benefit Scotland without detriment to the rest of the UK.

Oral Answers to Questions

Michael Moore Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

10. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister of Scotland on a referendum on independence for Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The First Minister and I met on Monday 13 February to discuss a referendum on independence. The Prime Minister, the First Minister and I had a further meeting on Thursday 16 February, when we discussed the need for any referendum to be legal, fair and decisive. It is in everyone’s interests that both of Scotland’s Governments work together and I look forward to meeting the First Minister again in due course.

[Alun Cairns]

The Scottish Government are the most resolute defenders of the Barnett formula, arguably against the interests of the other nations of the United Kingdom. Does the Secretary of State therefore think that if the people of Scotland vote yes in a referendum on independence, the Barnett formula should apply to the nation’s debt?

[Michael Moore]

I do not envisage that Scotland will become independent from the United Kingdom. I think we are stronger together and weaker apart. The hon. Gentleman touches on the fundamental issue of sorting out what the basis of that independence might look like, and the Scottish National party has so far singularly failed to answer questions on that.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State again confirm his and the Government’s commitment to a single, non-leading question in the referendum on Scottish separation, and will he further commit to a simple yes or no reply?

[Michael Moore]

The fundamental issue is about independence, and that is what we must resolve. We must have a legal, fair and decisive independence referendum.

[Amber Rudd]

Will my right hon. Friend clarify whether he has had conversations about Antarctica and whether it is true that the previous Government simply forgot to deal with Antarctica and the British territory there? What is his position on making sure that we retain control of it?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady highlights an important part of the world in which it is important that the UK Government have a role to play. May I point out that through the Scotland Bill, which is passing through their lordships House, we are delivering the biggest transfer of powers to Edinburgh since the Act of Union and tidying up some of the inconsistencies of the devolution settlement?

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

When the Scottish Secretary and the Prime Minister met the First Minister, the Prime Minister offered a proposal for enhanced devolution but failed to spell out what that might be. What does the Scottish Secretary envisage a package of devolved financial powers might look like? Would it include corporation tax, all of income tax and the aggregates levy?

[Michael Moore]

It is incredible that the SNP wants to ask a question about further devolution when it has not set out what the fundamentals of independence would be. One would think that after decades of having that as its main reason for existing, it might have some clear ideas on the issue.

[Stewart Hosie]

That was a very instructive answer because it failed entirely to answer the question. There was no detail about what the Prime Minister proposes. Is that because there is no detail, is it because the announcement was made simply to capture one day’s news headlines, or is it meant to cover the embarrassment of this Government, who voted against the devolution of any further powers in the Commons debates on the Scotland Bill last year?

[Michael Moore]

Honestly, the hon. Gentleman has a bit of a cheek talking about a lack of detail when his party cannot spell out what the currency situation would be in an independent Scotland, what the national debt might look like and how it might deal with pensions and financial regulation. It is absolutely clear that we must make the most fundamental decision on Scotland’s future in a clear-cut and decisive way. The debate about devolution will be ongoing and I very much look forward to being part of it.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend has spelt out the absence of detail given by members of the Scottish National party in this House. Has he impressed on the First Minister, in the opportunities he has had to do so, the First Minister’s unequivocal obligation to explain to the people of Scotland not just the process of independence but the consequences and costs of it and the length of time it would take to implement?

[Michael Moore]

My right hon. and learned Friend highlights some very important central issues in the debate about independence. I believe Scotland is stronger as part of the United Kingdom, and the United Kingdom is stronger because Scotland is part of it. On financial issues, our place in the world and the strength of our defences, there are huge numbers of unanswered questions for the SNP that it must now get on and address.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

2. How many young people aged between 16 and 24 are not in employment, education or training in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

According to the latest figures published in the annual population survey, the number of 16 to 19-year-olds estimated to be not in education, employment or training in Scotland in 2010 was 36,000.

[Mr Brown]

There is another important element to the question that I asked, which refers to young people up to 24 years old. They are the hardest-hit young people and we do not want to see that generation lost. In rural localities such as the right hon. Gentleman’s and mine, policies to get young people back into work will depend, as far as the private sector is concerned, on small and medium-sized enterprises. These businesses are suffering severely and the pressure on them is not enabling them to create jobs. Does the Secretary of State understand that we need a taskforce mentality to deal with young people’s unemployment?

[Michael Moore]

My officials are working on the statistics for up to 24-year-olds. They are not currently published but I look forward to getting the data for the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members.

On the fundamentals of the economy, I absolutely agree that we need small and medium-sized businesses to be given the ability to grow. That is why we are putting pressure on the banks to lend to them and ensuring that we support the young people we are dealing with. The youth contract is fundamental—£1 billion to help people get more places on work experience and to help employers to take people on. It is that kind of action that will help people get into the jobs market.

[Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend rightly mentions the youth contract, which comes into effect in April. Does he agree that it is imperative that the Scottish Government, the British Government and employers in Scotland work together positively to ensure that young people get the opportunities, and that they are not distracted by scoring points against each other, but rather work together for young people?

[Michael Moore]

I quite agree with my right hon. Friend. Working with Members across the House over the past six to eight months, I have held meetings and seminars around Scotland that have been focused on youth unemployment and on bringing together employers, young people, Scottish Government agencies and United Kingdom Government agencies. In March in Dundee we will have a national convention which John Swinney and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will attend, so that we can take the agenda forward together.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

No one in the House is complacent about youth unemployment and the plight of young people trying to find work in very trying economic circumstances. I welcome the joint initiative of the national convention taking place next month, but may I press the Secretary of State on what outcomes he expects from that convention, and whether he will welcome the initiatives that the Scottish Government have taken to ensure a place for every young person aged 16 to 19 in Scotland in work, training or education?

[Michael Moore]

It is vital that Scotland’s two Governments work together on this terrible problem that existed under the previous Government and continues. We need to address that using everything we can to help young people get experience, training or jobs. We will work hard on all those, and if others wish to work with us, we will welcome that.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many young Scots have lost their jobs since he was appointed to his job in May 2010?

[Michael Moore]

If I may say so, the hon. Lady should remember the economic mess that we inherited from the Labour Government, since when we have been fixing the deficit and seeking to rebalance the economy and ensure that we have sustainable growth. The youth contract, work experience and all the support we are giving are vital to ensuring that we get young people back into the workplace.

[Margaret Curran]

I notice that the Secretary of State struggled somewhat with that answer. There is one statistic that he should be familiar with. Since his Government scrapped the future jobs fund, 23,000 jobs have been lost in Scotland. That is more than 400 jobs every week for young people, while he has become the Tories’ man in Scotland. We are in the midst of a youth unemployment crisis, and the Secretary of State for Scotland has been posted missing. In contrast, Labour took direct action through the future jobs fund, delivering more than 10,000 real jobs for young people in Scotland. So can the Secretary of State share with the House what plans he has—any ideas at all—to take direct, effective action to tackle youth unemployment in Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

As ever, the hon. Lady wishes to leave behind the horrible mess that the Government she supported left for us to fix. She cannot escape that reality or the fact that youth unemployment rose under Labour. We are investing £1 billion in the youth contract, which will enhance the number of work experience places and provide additional support for employers taking on young people, and has provided the Scottish Government with additional resources. I have been working with her colleagues and others to ensure that we do everything we can to tackle this terrible problem.

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[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

4. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a credit rating for Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

Thanks to the decisive action that this Government have taken, the whole of the United Kingdom benefits from record low interest rates and a confirmed triple A credit rating status.

[Andrew Selous]

What estimate has the Secretary of State made of the extra debt interest that an independent Scotland would have to pay were it not to benefit from a triple A rating?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about how an independent Scotland would fare. The rating agencies have been quite clear that there are issues relating to the track record of Government, the pension arrangements, national debt and so much more that they need to take into account. Of course, it is in the gift of the Scottish Government, should they so wish, to ask for a draft opinion on what that status might look like, but so far they have not done so.

[Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

What analysis have the Government undertaken on the impact of a low credit rating on my constituency, and more widely on Lanarkshire, in the event of Scotland separating from the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Michael Moore]

I recognise the challenges that face the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents and many others in Lanarkshire and elsewhere. I stick to the basic belief that Lanarkshire and Scotland are better off being part of the United Kingdom and much stronger that way than they would be if we went our separate ways.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

Crucial to a good credit rating for Scotland will be its attractiveness to private investment to come into the country to invest in jobs and the economy. To that end, will the Secretary of State emphasise to the Scottish First Minister that the uncertainty caused by the referendum is causing a growing number of companies to pause their investment decisions until they get clarity on Scotland’s direction of travel?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend goes to the central issue, which is when this debate will take place. We should get on and make this fundamental decision about Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom sooner rather than later. I cannot for the life of me understand why we should have to wait the best part of three years, with all the economic uncertainly that will generate, until reaching that decision.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

Does the Secretary of State not understand that it is not the credit rating score that matters, but the cost of servicing Government debt? Japan, which has a much higher net debt and a double A minus credit rating, pays less interest on Government bonds than the UK. The truth is that it is the yield that counts, not the triple A rating or lack thereof. Will he now stop this ridiculous scaremongering about ratings?

[Michael Moore]

Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that the triple A status has no bearing on the interest rates we pay? He really needs to wake up and, with his colleagues, answer some of the fundamental questions at the heart of the debate, which so far they have ducked.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

5. What meetings Ministers in his Department have had with Ministers in the Department for Works and Pensions to discuss the effect on Scotland of the proposed benefits cap.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

6. What recent estimate he has made of the level of public expenditure per person in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The most recent estimate of the level of public expenditure in Scotland, published in October 2011, shows that the level of public expenditure in Scotland was £10,165 per head for 2010-11.

[Mr Bone]

Last week at the breakfast table, Mrs Bone and I were talking about public expenditure in Scotland and the First Minister, as one does, when suddenly our 11-year-old son, Thomas, asked, “Is Alex Salmond a goodie or a baddie?” What does the Secretary of State think?

[Mr Speaker]

With reference to public expenditure per person in Scotland.

[Michael Moore]

As ever, the goings on at the Bone household breakfast table are a thing of national interest, and we look forward to further updates in due course. I think that when the hon. Gentleman’s son gets a chance to meet the First Minister, he will be delighted by the conversation that he has, but the important point that we should know is that the First Minister wants to make England separate from Scotland; we do not.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

On public expenditure, the Secretary of State will know that not one ounce of UK steel is being used to build the new Forth road bridge. Is it not shameful that 29,000 of tonnes of steel can be shipped 12,500 miles from Shanghai but not 33 miles from Lanarkshire?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman’s commitment to Lanarkshire and to the steel industry is absolutely understood and well known, and his anger is understood, too. It is a matter that was of course devolved to the Scottish Government, and it is for them to answer his very difficult question.

[Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD)]

In welcoming the additional per capita expenditure represented by the £100 million investment in sleeper services, I wonder whether the Secretary of State agrees that it is a good example of the Westminster and Holyrood Governments working more effectively together than separately, and will he seize the opportunity now to call on the likes of Richard Branson, Pete Waterman and others with innovation and entrepreneurial skills to see whether we can re-establish motor-rail services now that the sleeper services are secure?

[Michael Moore]

My right hon. Friend is right to highlight the important investment that we have committed to the sleeper services, for which he has been an undoubted champion over a very long period. He is right to stress that we need to look at innovative ways to develop those services, and I look forward to discussing his idea further.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

15. What preparations his Department has made for dealing with issues that would arise in the event of Scottish independence.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The Scottish Government are proposing independence, but they have failed to set out what independence would mean for Scotland. This Government are clear that Scotland is stronger for being part of the United Kingdom and that the United Kingdom is stronger for having Scotland within it.

[Mary Macleod]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that Scottish politicians, instead of focusing on independence, should, in these difficult economic times, stop depending on one industry in the North sea and look to create a broader industry sector that will provide economic support for the rest of Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is right that our primary concern is to ensure that we get the economy on the right track. By fixing the deficit, rebalancing the economy and ensuring that there is sustainable growth, we will do just that. In the meantime, we should get on with resolving the issue of independence to remove the uncertainty that it causes. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is still far too much noise. I want to hear Mr John Stevenson.

[John Stevenson]

Does the Secretary of State agree that in the event of independence, there would be many unnecessary financial and regulatory costs to both Scotland and England in the areas along the border between the two countries? In an extreme case, there is the absurd possibility of border controls.

[Michael Moore]

First, I am not contemplating Scotland actually becoming independent, because I am confident that Scotland will vote to stay in the United Kingdom. However, my hon. Friend highlights a central issue. The SNP cannot dodge some of the issues that there would be in relation to Europe if we were to become separate, including those to do with the borders. As a borders MP, I think that those issues are as absurd as he does.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Has the Secretary of State considered the recent study by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, which shows that even if it formed a sterling zone with the UK, a separate Scotland would experience volatile public finances, inherit debts at either 70% or 80% of GDP, and face tougher constraints on levels of tax and borrowing than it does as an equal participant in fiscal union with the UK?

[Michael Moore]

Of course I have studied that report. The hon. Gentleman puts its conclusions succinctly. Those are points that the SNP has failed to answer.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Supplementary Estimates 2011-12

Michael Moore Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary supplementary estimate the Scotland DEL will be increased by £361,773,000 from £27,987,779,000 to £28,349,552,000. Within the total DEL change, the impact on resources and capital is set out in the following table:

Oral Answers to Questions

Michael Moore Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

1. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Defence about Ministry of Defence police numbers in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

We have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on defence matters relating to Scotland. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), last spoke about the issue to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) —who is responsible for defence personnel, welfare and veterans—earlier this week.

[Dr Whiteford]

As recently as November last year, the Prime Minister said that

“there are no current plans to reduce the number of Ministry of Defence police at the Faslane or Coulport naval bases.”—[Official Report, 23 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 295.]

Since then, however, the Government have confirmed plans to cut the MOD police budget by 50%. I am curious to know whether the Prime Minister’s assurances hold water. May I ask the Secretary of State what proportion of that cut will fall in Scotland, and whether he believes that the threats to our national security have diminished sufficiently in recent months to justify a 50% cut?

[Michael Moore]

What the Prime Minister said stands. There are no current plans for the MOD to reduce the core police role relating to the security of our national institutions, such as nuclear safety at Coulport or Faslane. National security, including the security of our defence installations, is our highest priority. The reason we have so many MOD police in Scotland in the first place is our huge defence imprint, which would be put at risk immediately if the country were to become independent.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I am delighted by what the Secretary of State says about the importance of security at Faslane and Coulport, and by his assurance that there are no current plans to reduce the number of MOD police. I hope he will also be able to assure the House that the Government will never adopt any plans to reduce security at Faslane and Coulport, given the importance of the nuclear installations there.

[Michael Moore]

As I have said, national security and the defence of our security installations are our highest priority, and we will do nothing that would compromise that security.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

2. What assessment he has made of the effect of the autumn statement on child tax credit payments in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

4. How many young people are not in employment, training or education in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The annual population survey of 2010 estimates that 36,000 18 to 19-year-olds in Scotland were not in education, employment or training between 2009 and 2010.

[Mr Donohoe]

I thank the Secretary of State for that response, but it does not really answer the question of what is happening between the ages of 16 and 18, which is as important, if not more important. What is he doing to encourage youngsters to enter industry and to enable them to take up apprenticeships as joiners, electricians and plumbers, because this Government have failed to attract people into those industries? Does he agree that the idea, which I suggested to him at a meeting, of setting up schools-industry liaison committees is worth supporting?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman rightly continues to focus on this issue. We are all deeply concerned about youth unemployment. I have visited his constituency, and I have also had other meetings in Ayrshire and elsewhere, and it is right that we should join the Scottish Government, employers and all the agencies to help young people—aged between 16 and 18 and of any age—to find work or support. The youth contract that we announced before Christmas will bring £1 billion of extra investment into supporting the young unemployed, whether through wage incentives, additional work experience and opportunities or money to the Scottish Government. That money could also be used to create the school-industry liaison groups the hon. Gentleman wants.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

As the Secretary of State says, youth unemployment is a huge concern for Members of all parties and for people across Scotland. The youth contract will help by providing 40,000 opportunities for young people in Scotland, but this problem will not be solved easily, so what will my right hon. Friend do to bring together people from the UK Government, the jobcentres and the Scottish Government, as well as business employers and education representatives, to offer the opportunities that young people in Scotland need?

[Michael Moore]

Over many months now, I have been bringing together exactly those groups in different parts of Scotland—including Ayrshire, Falkirk and the borders. At the end of March, I, along with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Scottish Finance Secretary, will bring everybody together so we can focus as two Governments and as all the interested parties on tackling this scourge that we must get rid of.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

The problem with the Secretary of State’s complacent answers is that he simply does not grasp the scale of the crisis of slumping demand, employment and confidence that grips Scotland’s economy due to the crushing austerity being imposed by this Government. Does he not share the real fears of young people that, with youth unemployment at over 21% and seven people chasing every vacancy in Scotland, there simply are not enough jobs to go around, and is it not time to change course by boosting demand through a cut in VAT now, before this Government’s failing economic plan plunges Scotland into the misery of another downturn?

[Michael Moore]

I think it is wrong for the Labour party to be complacent about its record on the economy, which landed us in this mess in the first place. The shadow Defence Secretary, one of my predecessors as Scottish Secretary, said this week that Labour has to face up to the realities of the economy and the deficit, and the hon. Gentleman should do that, too. We want to work with everybody so that we can reduce youth unemployment, and I invite him to look at the youth contract in more detail.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

5. What assessment he has made of the effect of the autumn statement on levels of poverty in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

11. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister for Scotland on the referendum proposed by the Scottish Government on Scotland’s independence from the UK.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

Yesterday, I made a statement announcing a consultation to seek views on how any referendum can be made legal, fair and decisive. I discussed this yesterday with the First Minister, and I hope to have further discussions with the Scottish Government, along with other politicians and people from across Scottish civic society, during the consultation.

[Iain Stewart]

The House of Commons Library has given me strong evidence to show that the economies of Quebec and Canada as a whole suffered in the 1990s due to constitutional uncertainty. For the sake of jobs in Scotland and England, does my right hon. Friend agree that the last thing we need is a prolonged period of constitutional uncertainty, and that the First Minister should stop playing politics and get on with it?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is correct to point to that independent analysis and the experience of Quebec and the rest of Canada. It is vital that the economic uncertainty we now face because of the referendum is resolved, which is why we have brought forward proposals to make the referendum legal, fair and decisive. I want it to happen as soon as possible.

[Fiona Bruce]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that if the UK Government do not facilitate an independence referendum, one cannot take place?

[Michael Moore]

The central issue arising from the consultation that I launched yesterday is that, as things stand, the Scottish Parliament does not have the legal power to hold a referendum, regardless of how that is described, and we need to provide that power by working with it. I am committed to working with the Scottish Government, and with people from across the country, so that we can get the power devolved to Scotland, the Scottish Government can then develop the question and we can get on with the referendum, which will be made in Scotland, for the people of Scotland.

[Mark Menzies]

Has my right hon. Friend had any conversations to establish what impact an independent Scotland would have on our relationship with the European Union and the euro?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is focusing on some of the central issues that we need to be able to get on to debate in the decision about whether Scotland should go its own way or continue to be part of the most successful multi-nation state in the history of the world, as I think it is vital it does. So let us get on and devolve the power to make it a legal referendum. Let us have a fair referendum and let us make sure it is decisive.

[Lindsay Roy]

The Select Committee on Scottish Affairs has already embarked on an inquiry to identify those issues, such as defence, which need to be resolved before a referendum is held. Does the Secretary of State plan to contribute to that debate with the Select Committee?

[Michael Moore]

I certainly do. What is really important is not just our debate now about the future of Scotland, but ensuring that everybody in the country gets the opportunity to participate in the consultation on the shape of the referendum, and I hope that people will respond to that. I hope that everybody across the country—not just politicians—will get involved in debating defence, welfare and the state of our economy, all of which, I believe, are much safer within the United Kingdom. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are discussing extremely important matters and we should do so in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

We now know that there will be an independence referendum in the autumn of 1914—[Laughter.] That, of course, was the year that the great war started. There will be an independence referendum in 2014, designed and decided by the people of Scotland. If the Secretary of State is so concerned about the legal powers for the referendum, why does he not just devolve the powers, through section 30, without condition? I see that the Prime Minister has walked into this debate. I really hope that the Secretary of State can encourage the Prime Minister to come to Scotland as much as possible in the next two weeks, because the Prime Minister is the best recruiting sergeant for a “yes” to independence vote that we have.

[Michael Moore]

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be a full participant in the debate, as will all people across the United Kingdom. For us, it is important that we have a referendum that is made in Scotland for the people of Scotland about our future in Scotland. The First Minister and now the hon. Gentleman —who gave a slightly different date—have put forward their preference for when that referendum should be, but before we can get anywhere near it we must ensure that it is legal. I hope that the Scottish Government will work with us to ensure that that is the case.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State recognise that following this week’s important developments, the referendum campaign on Scotland’s future is now effectively under way and it is time to get on to the substance of the issue? What is more, given that the Scottish Government have said that they have been involved for some time in considering the details of the prospects for Scotland, will the Secretary of State tell the House whether any UK Government officials have been involved in any discussions on the future of the Scottish economy and, in particular, on whether a separate Scotland will keep the pound, join the euro or have a separate currency?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady is right to focus on those key issues about the future of Scotland. I believe that Scotland is best served by continuing to be part of the United Kingdom, where our economy is stronger and our defence more secure, where we have much greater clout internationally and where our welfare system will be more generous and better. I hope that the Scottish Government will publish their plans about what they think should happen in an independent Scotland and in the meantime, as the hon. Lady says, let the debate commence.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Does he agree that one of Britain’s greatest achievements was the creation of the welfare state? Have any discussions taken place about the implications of separation for welfare spend in Scotland, particularly as recent figures reveal that it was three times greater than oil revenues in 2010?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about the contrast between the level of spending to support some of the most vulnerable in our society in Scotland and, indeed, the rest of the country and the volatility of oil revenues. I believe that we can have a more secure and generous welfare system by sharing the risks and resources across the whole of the United Kingdom, which has helped Scotland through difficult times in the past and at present.

[Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that all Scots should be entitled to vote in any referendum on independence, whether or not they live in Scotland, including my dad, who is a proud Scotsman who happens to live in England and thinks of himself first and foremost as British?

[Michael Moore]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s dad’s sense of patriotism and I am sure that he, like many other Scots around the country and around the world, will wish to contribute to our consultation. Like me, they will want to see this referendum on the most historic decision we will ever take in Scotland carried out legally and fairly, on a straightforward and decisive basis. Let us get that sorted and let us get on with the debate.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

9. What steps he has taken to address youth unemployment in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

rose— [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I apologise for interrupting the Secretary of State, but we are discussing youth unemployment in Scotland, a very important matter, and I want to hear his answer.

[Michael Moore]

The Government have committed £1 billion over the next three years to implement the youth contract. Our package of support includes wage incentives for employers to recruit 18 to 24-year-olds from the Work programme and increased work experience opportunities for that age group. Other support is also available.

[Katy Clark]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. He is well aware of the rising levels of youth unemployment in North Ayrshire and I know that he has received strong representations about it from all the Ayrshire MPs. What more does he think that this Government can do at Westminster to increase public and private investment in North Ayrshire?

[Michael Moore]

I acknowledge the work that the hon. Lady has done and the fact that we recently met to discuss this very serious issue. It is important that the youth contract, which my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister visited Scotland to discuss on Friday, is taken advantage of by people across the country. I look forward to coming to the hon. Lady’s constituency in the near future to meet those very people so that we can discuss how to implement it most effectively.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

12. What comparative assessment he has made of the level of subsidy from the public purse for postal, transport and health services in Scotland and the north of England.

Scotland’s Constitutional Future

Michael Moore Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement on Scotland’s constitutional future in the United Kingdom.

In May 2011, the Scottish National party won a significant electoral victory—a victory that this Government have openly acknowledged. The SNP has consistently campaigned for Scottish independence, and its 2011 manifesto included a pledge to hold an independence referendum. As a Scot, I think that it is vital that the Scottish people make a clear decision about our future within the United Kingdom: a decision made in Scotland, by the people of Scotland. At present, however, there is a lack of clarity about the referendum, its outcome, and what the implications of that outcome would be, all of which creates economic uncertainty. That is bad for jobs and investment.

Since last year’s election, we have been asking the Scottish Government to set out their plans for a referendum, but so far they have not done so. In particular, they have not said anything more about their legal power to deliver a referendum. This is not an issue that can be ducked. To legislate for a referendum on independence, the Scottish Parliament must have the legal power. It is this Government’s clear view that the Scottish Parliament does not have that legal power.

Scotland’s future within the UK will be the most important decision we, as Scots, take in our lifetime. It is essential that the referendum is legal, fair and decisive. As a Government, we have been clear since May 2011 that we will not stand in the way of a referendum on independence, but neither will we stand on the sidelines and let uncertainty continue. Any referendum must let all of us in Scotland determine our future clearly and decide whether to stay part of the longest, most successful partnership of nations in history. That is why we are publishing a consultation to seek views on how to deliver a legal, fair and decisive referendum. For a referendum to take place, legislation is required. That will ensure that any referendum, on any issue, is subject to detailed consideration and debate, and to clear and consistent regulation.

In 2010, the Scottish Government published plans to legislate for a referendum on independence. We have considered those plans carefully against the devolution settlement in Scotland as set out in the Scotland Act 1998. The 1998 Act is clear: the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate on matters reserved to this Parliament. Among the issues that are reserved is the constitution, including

“the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England”.

Any Act of the Scottish Parliament that “relates to” a reserved matter is quite simply “not law”. Whether or not a Bill “relates to” a reserved matter depends on its purpose and effect. We are clear that the Scottish Government’s purpose in bringing forward a referendum is to secure independence. Their intended effect is to secure a mandate for negotiating this. Both purpose and effect relate directly to the reserved matter of the Union. Any distinction between a binding or advisory referendum is artificial. As the law stands, an independence referendum Bill is outside the competence of the Scottish Parliament. Such a Bill could be challenged in court, and it is our view that the Scottish Government would lose.

The consultation paper that I am publishing today sets out different ways to deliver a legal, fair and decisive referendum. It explains how the powers for a referendum could be devolved under the section 30 order-making provisions in the Scotland Act 1998, which is our preferred approach. It also invites views on devolving the powers using other legislation, including the current Scotland Bill, and seeks opinions on the possibility of running the referendum directly.

Given the clear legal problem that exists, we want to work with the Scottish Government to provide the answer. This is not about the mandates of Scotland’s two Governments, or about who calls the shots. It is about empowering the people of Scotland to participate in a legal referendum. That means that the UK Government are willing to give the Scottish Parliament the powers to hold a referendum, which it cannot otherwise do legally. As well as being legal, however, a referendum must be fair and decisive. For those reasons, the rules of the referendum must be demonstrably above board. The referendum should be overseen by those who have neutrality and the proven expertise to inspire confidence in the fairness of the process, such as the Electoral Commission.

These issues are not for politicians alone to consider. That is why the consultation process that starts today will let people express their views on when a referendum should be held, what question should be asked, who should be entitled to vote and how the campaign should be run. It will be open to all people in Scotland—and, indeed, outwith Scotland—to make their views clear, rather than rely on the opinions of politicians. It is in everyone’s interests that the two Governments take on board the needs of Scotland and the opinions of its people, work together, and deliver the legal, fair and decisive referendum that is in our common interests.

The Government believe passionately in the United Kingdom. For over 300 years our country has brought people together in the most successful multi-national state the world has known. This Government are clear that independence is not in the interests of Scotland. The United Kingdom brings strength to Scotland; Scotland brings strength to the United Kingdom. We recognise that this is not a view shared by all, but politicians from both sides of the debate owe it to everyone in Scotland to ensure that the referendum is delivered in a legal, fair and decisive way.

The future of Scotland must not be worked out in secret, behind closed doors, nor determined by wrangling in the courts. It is my task to ensure that this referendum is made in Scotland by the people of Scotland for the future of Scotland. I commend this statement to the House.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for sight of the statement before its announcement this afternoon. As a consequence of the result of the Scottish elections in May, we accept that the Scottish National party has a clear mandate to ask the people of Scotland whether they want to remain part of the United Kingdom. There is absolutely no doubt that this referendum will take place; what all the political parties must now do is work together to make sure that the referendum is fair, legal and commands the complete authority of the Scottish people.

In the light of the Secretary of State’s statement, we have some further questions and concerns that I hope he will address in his response. I begin by asking the Secretary of State how he plans to take forward his proposals and his plans for consultation on the section 30 order.

Secondly, I understand that without publishing any of their own legal advice, the Scottish Government are contesting the authority of the legal advice held by the Secretary of State. What assurances can he give the Scottish people that the advice he holds rests on a sound foundation—a foundation that is robust and authoritative on this issue? To ensure maximum transparency, does he plan to publish his legal advice, and would he recommend that the Scottish Government do the same?

Thirdly, Scottish Labour is clear that any question on separation must be a straight yes or no choice. We therefore welcome yesterday’s acknowledgement by the Deputy First Minister of the Scottish Government that this is also the preference of the Scottish National party. Will the Secretary of State confirm that this is the position of the coalition parties, too? If so, it is important to recognise that, in respect of Scotland, all four major political parties are in agreement that there should be a straight choice of a yes-no referendum. That is a highly significant development.

Fourthly, will the Secretary of State confirm with absolutely clarity today whether the UK Government support the involvement of the Electoral Commission in the conduct of the referendum? The Electoral Commission has overseen referendums in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom this very year, and it has the highest level of confidence and respect in overseeing the referendum as a non-partisan arbiter. We are of the opinion that it is the body best placed to oversee the referendum. Does the Secretary of State share that view?

Which Minister will lead the consultation? Will it be the Secretary of State himself, or will it perhaps be the Chancellor? The United Kingdom Government appear to have sent out the wrong signal by allowing the Chancellor, rather than the Secretary of State for Scotland, to take the lead on a vital Scottish issue in the Cabinet.

As the First Minister asserted last May, the sooner the vote on the future of Scotland is held, the better. Scotland’s economy is flatlining. One in four young Scottish men is out of work. We are told that Scotland now faces record levels of child and family poverty. What we cannot afford to do is spend the next four years obsessing about the process of a referendum. Now is the time for parties to work together, get on with the debate, and get on with deciding where Scotland’s best future lies.

The Scottish people face a momentous decision in the referendum. What Labour will not do is sit back and support a process that turns into a petty fight between the two elements that Scotland rejects—separation and the Tories. Scotland deserves better than politicians bickering about the process. We must move as quickly as possible to a debate of substance that puts Scotland’s people and Scottish interests first.

[Michael Moore]

I entirely agree with what the hon. Lady has just said about the need for us get on with the debate, and to ensure that the Scottish people and Scottish interests, not the interests of politicians in different political parties, are at the heart of it.

I am delighted to confirm that—as the hon. Lady will see if she reads the consultation paper, and as is clear from the fact that I made the statement today—I will lead for the Government, working with all my colleagues.

As I acknowledged in my statement, the Scottish National party secured an important victory in the elections last year. It had set out its clear intention of holding a referendum, but what was not so clear was how it would do that. As I have said, we believe the legal position to be that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to conduct any kind of referendum, and it is therefore important for us to work with the Scottish Government to ensure that we can get on with this historic decision.

The hon. Lady asked how we would consult. The consultation document offers people throughout Scotland the opportunity to write and involve themselves in the process. I will of course be going out and about in Scotland myself, and I am sure that many others will also involve themselves in the debate. It is important that everyone in Scotland is able to feel part of the process.

The hon. Lady will be aware of the ministerial code and the convention followed by successive Governments that legal advice is neither acknowledged nor published. However, I ask her to look carefully at the consultation document and to note the authority that we are bringing to bear, namely sections 29 and 30 and, in particular, schedule 5 of the Scotland Act. I believe that careful examination of those documents will lead to only one clear conclusion: that there is no legal authority for any referendum. We must ensure that that issue is resolved.

The hon. Lady asked whether I, like her, support a simple, straightforward yes-no question on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. That is indeed what we are recommending. As for the issue of oversight, I think it entirely fair and reasonable for the process of a referendum to be overseen by a body that has widespread experience, is neutral, and is seen to be above and beyond the fray. The Electoral Commission seems to me to fit the bill, but I look forward to hearing the reactions of others during the consultation.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

What do the Government propose should happen to the shared debts and the shared membership of the European Union were Scotland to leave the Union?

[Michael Moore]

The right hon. Gentleman asks an important question. I am sure that it is one of many that will be at the heart of the debate about Scotland’s future when we come to the referendum itself, but for now I want to ensure that we can get on with the proper substantive debate.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

May I pick up on the important point made by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood)? During the referendum campaign, there will be claim and counter-claim about the adverse or beneficial effects for the people of Scotland, and by extension for the people of the other parts of the United Kingdom, of separation or retention of the Union. Will the Secretary of State consider, in consultation with all the parties, drawing on the experience of the Office for National Statistics, the Statistics Authority and the Office for Budget Responsibility and deciding whether a body should be set up to provide authoritative factual information about the consequences of separation and union, so that when there is an argument it is at least an argument on a common currency?

[Michael Moore]

The currency question will, of course, also be an issue in the referendum debate. The right hon. Gentleman draws on a lot of experience of the relevant legislation, and he makes an important point. When we hold the substantive debate—which must happen sooner rather than later—it is important that we can turn to agreed sources of information. We can consider that issue at a later date, but I accept the point the right hon. Gentleman makes.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

I am well aware of the convention that Governments do not publish legal advice, but, as my right hon. Friend has pointed out, this is a decision that can almost be described as unique because it would bring to an end hundreds of years of history. May I therefore urge him to reconsider whether the advice received by the Government should be published so as to achieve the clarity that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) spoke about in relation to statistics?

I welcome today’s announcement, especially because political, economic and social uncertainty for the next two years would be deeply damaging to the people of Scotland. Does my right hon. Friend join me in wondering why those who are so confident of the case for independence are so unwilling to countenance a referendum now? Could it be that the bravehearts are no longer quite so brave as before?

[Michael Moore]

My right hon. and learned Friend makes an important point: over the past few months they have been strangely quiet about the need to get on with this referendum on an issue for which they have campaigned over many generations.

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for welcoming today’s announcement. In respect of the legal advice, may I advise him to look carefully at the consultation paper and the clear view about the authority in the Scotland Act? I am absolutely certain that that opinion is right, and as a result we need to ensure that the Scottish Parliament has the authority to pass a referendum Bill and get on with addressing this most important decision.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his timeous sharing of the statement in advance of his making it today.

Last year, the Scottish National party won an historic landslide victory on a platform to hold a Scottish independence referendum in the second half of the Scottish Parliament. The Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party opposed an independence referendum, and each one of those parties lost heavily in the election, so why are this Westminster Government trying to dictate terms about the referendum to the democratically elected Scottish Government, who have a mandate on this issue? Specifically, why are the Westminster Government seeking to dictate the date of the referendum and the questions on the ballot paper, and why are they seeking to exclude 16 and 17-year-olds from this important and historic referendum?

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Moore]

I do not know how often I have to acknowledge the SNP’s victory of last year before the hon. Gentleman hears me say it, but I am happy to repeat that I recognise its victory of last year. I am surprised that he has such a problem with the law, however, because I am sure that an independent Scotland would want to be governed under the rule of law. Therefore, I think it is in all our interests to ensure that the legal basis of any referendum is clear. I am saying to him that it is not there—it is not possible to have a legal referendum. It does not matter whether it is “advisory”, “legally binding” or whatever one calls it: a referendum has to be legal, and the authority is not there. What I am offering the hon. Gentleman, the First Minister and all his party is a way by which all of us in Scotland can get on with this decision without needing to have it made by the courts, rather than by people going to the ballot box.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the terms on which we might do this. I repeat: we are consulting. We are asking people across Scotland—and those elsewhere who may have an opinion—to tell us what they think of our proposals. We want to do this together, between the two Governments, and I hope he will encourage his colleagues there to get alongside us and work with us.

As far as the date is concerned, there is no date in the consultation paper and the draft section 30 order that we are publishing. Regarding the ballot paper, I heard the Deputy First Minister say yesterday that she preferred having a single question, so it is quite useful to get on and do what she, as well as the rest of us, wants to do.

On the franchise, we are suggesting that the same franchise that was the right basis on which the First Minister and all his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament were elected should be used to determine this historic decision. As far as 16 and 17-year-olds participating is concerned, there is an entirely fair debate about their role in the electoral system generally, but it should not be focused around a single electoral event to suit one party or another. Let us just get on with the debate on the fairest of terms; that is what we are offering.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement, simply because it is high time that the debate about Scottish nationalism that has been raging in Scotland should be debated here in Westminster, too. However, does he agree that there can be no question of holding a referendum that is legal, fair and decisive unless the proposal on the ballot paper is absolutely clear? Generally, I have to say I favour post-legislative referendums.

[Michael Moore]

It is important that we have a legal referendum that is conducted fairly, and that is decisive. I would like to see it sooner, rather than later. It is damaging to Scotland and its economy, affecting jobs and investment, if we simply have a long delay. I want to ensure that we have a proper debate about when that should be, and in this consultation we set out the way we can sort the date of the referendum, by agreement.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

There has already been a great deal of noise as a result of this afternoon’s statement, but it is very clear that the people of Scotland will not take to people playing games with their constitutional future. They will expect both Administrations to work together to find a solution to the problem that the Secretary of State has indicated today. Will he provide us with more information about how he will consult and negotiate with the Scottish Government? Will this matter be referred to the joint ministerial council and, if required, be subject to its dispute procedure?

[Michael Moore]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her welcome for this. I absolutely agree that people in Scotland will not thank any of us, from any political party—whether we were elected in Scotland to serve here in the House of Commons, or to serve in the Scottish Parliament—for playing politics with this most important process, leading to the most important decision we will ever take as a country. I therefore agree with her that it is important, as I have set out in my statement today and as we say in the consultation paper, that the two Governments work together. I spoke earlier this afternoon to the First Minister and asked him to consider carefully what is in the consultation paper. I look forward to meeting him early on to discuss it further.

[Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)]

Given the economic implications of an independent Scotland for my constituents, when will the English finally get a say on the future of the Union?

[Michael Moore]

I have to say to my hon. Friend that it is important that the people of Scotland decide their place in the United Kingdom. I am confident that when they do so they will vote to stay within the United Kingdom.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

May I commend the Secretary of State for the balance with which he has approached this, unlike the leader of the sulking six from the SNP on my left? It is very important that we get it clear that this is not the end of the debate about the powers for Scotland; this is only about the referendum on being in or out, which I happen to think is 13 years too late, as it should have been on the ballot paper in the first devolution referendum. Is it clear that we can continue with the debate, for some of us aspire to give more powers to Scotland within the United Kingdom?

[Michael Moore]

I absolutely agree that there is a legitimate debate to be had about the powers that Scotland has within the United Kingdom. We have spent a long time on this in this House and their lordships will now consider the Scotland Bill, which will significantly enhance the powers of the Scottish Parliament, creating much greater financial accountability and giving it much greater economic powers. I believe that the debate on devolution will continue; all of our parties, be it the Labour party, the two parties in the coalition or the SNP, will continue to debate it. However, when we have extended the powers of the Scottish Parliament it has always been on the basis of a vigorous debate, where parties set out their stalls, there is a coming together as we develop consensus, as we did in the constitutional convention and in the Calman commission, and then legislation based on that consensus. That offers the best model for giving further powers to the Scottish Parliament, but we now have huge uncertainty because of this prospect of an independence referendum. I want to get rid of the uncertainty. Let us get on with the debate about Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom.

[Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

Further to that point, does my right hon. Friend accept that the dynamic of transferring power from Scotland to England is something for which our party, the Liberal Democrats, has fought for decades and has delivered for Scotland, that that process can continue only within the dynamics of the United Kingdom and that it should not be used to confuse a question about whether the people of Scotland can decide whether to stay in the United Kingdom? Does he welcome, as I do, the indication from the SNP that finally it will stop confusing the electorate of Scotland and give us a straight question: are we going to stay in the UK or not?

[Michael Moore]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. Various suggestions about “devo max” have been thrown around without any definition of what it might be and nobody has been willing to stand up and say that it is actually what they want to put forward themselves. Of course I agree with him that the Liberal Democrats have proudly proposed ways to modernise the United Kingdom constitution, and all parties in this House will continue to do that. What matters for now is that we get on and have a clear and decisive decision about our future, and I welcome the Deputy First Minister’s comments yesterday.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

I broadly welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. Clearly the SNP won a mandate for a referendum, but now that it has won that mandate it is no longer the SNP’s or Alex Salmond’s referendum, but Scotland’s referendum, because Scotland’s political future is way more important that any political party or individual politician. So does the Secretary of State agree that all political parties, and civic society, must come together in the best interests of the people of Scotland and decide when that referendum should take place?

[Michael Moore]

First, may I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his new role within the Scottish Labour party? I am sure that he will be travelling the length and breadth of the country to make the case that he was just making, among other things. As for his central point, I agree that it is important that people of all parties, and those of none, get involved in this debate, so that all the people of Scotland are engaged in resolving the process and then getting on with the real debate.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

Given the astounding arrogance of the SNP in refusing to acknowledge that the Scottish Government simply do not have the legal power to hold a referendum, is the Secretary of State aware that most people, in all parts of this United Kingdom, welcome the fact that he and the Prime Minister have taken the initiative to allow a referendum and let the voice of the Scottish people be heard—not at some historically sentimental point in the future but as soon as the consultation is cancelled—because Scotland and the UK need clarity and certainty now?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend expresses her disappointment in her usual characteristic style. I, too, hope that the Scottish National party and the Scottish Government will engage constructively and recognise the fact that it is in the interests of people across Scotland that the two Governments work together, get rid of this legal problem and get on with having the referendum on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Will the Secretary of State please pass on our most sincere and deepest gratitude to his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, because his clumsy and inappropriate steps into the constitutional question have led to thousands of people giving their support to the SNP and the independence cause? There are lots of the Secretary of State’s friends on the Front Bench and lots of his Tory friends on the Back Benches—will he encourage them to come to Scotland? The yes to independence cause needs to hear from the Conservatives.

[Michael Moore]

There was I hoping that the new year would bring a generous new spirit from the hon. Gentleman but, as ever, I am to be disappointed. I love the fact that he wants to get on with the debate—that would make a refreshing change from where the SNP has been for the past seven months.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

As the Secretary of State will no doubt be aware, a number of respected economic institutions, including Citigroup, have highlighted that the prolonged uncertainty over Scotland’s future is costing investment and, ultimately, jobs in Scotland. When the Secretary of State next meets the First Minister of Scotland, will he ask him what he is feart of in putting the decision in front of the people of Scotland now?

[Michael Moore]

I might put it slightly differently. I have already suggested to the First Minister—and I intend to continue this discussion—that whatever our differences about the future of Scotland, it is important that we have a proper debate. I believe Scotland is far stronger as part of the United Kingdom and that the United Kingdom is much the stronger for having Scotland as part of it, whether we think about the economy, our defence, our welfare system or our international clout as Scots within the United Kingdom. I hope that we will get on with that debate, but in the meantime let us get a legal, fair and decisive referendum in progress.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Over the past 30 or so years, the one constant in constitutional development in Scotland has been the fact that the Scottish National party has held to the position that its only position is independence for Scotland. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is faintly surreal that now that the Administration in Edinburgh have been offered the opportunity to have a legal basis on which to hold a referendum that might give them their life’s ambition, they now appear to be rejecting it? Is that not an utterly bizarre position for a party that has not participated in the constitutional development of Scotland over the past 30 years?

[Michael Moore]

The right hon. Lady makes an important point. In all the discussions over many decades about enhancing Scotland’s powers within the United Kingdom, the SNP has set its face against being part of that process. Occasionally, late in the day, it has joined in, but it has mostly turned its back. That is one thing, but to turn its back on a process that would enable a referendum on its life cause and its entire mission in politics is very odd indeed. I hope that when SNP members reflect carefully on the proposition, they will see that it is very reasonable and sets out a fair basis on which we can get on with the referendum and ensure that all people across Scotland can make this most historic of decisions. I believe that when they do, they will decide to stay within the United Kingdom.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Given that Scotland is in the European Union by virtue of a United Kingdom treaty as implemented by the Westminster European Communities Act 1972, does the Secretary of State accept that if there were to be an independence yes vote, that would require a referendum of the United Kingdom as a whole?

[Michael Moore]

Until almost to the end of that question, I thought that for once I might be in agreement with my hon. Friend on a matter to do with Europe. He is right to raise the issue of Europe because Scotland’s membership of the European Union, were we to become an independent country, could not be taken for granted. There would have to be a process for getting into the EU, which is vital for our economy. On that basis, I hope we will find common cause.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

I seek an assurance from the Secretary of State regarding the uncertainties that arise by virtue of the time being taken to get to the point where we have a referendum, which are very damaging for inward investment possibilities. Right now I am trying to get inward investment of some size into my constituency, but it is highly probable that as a consequence of all this the high levels of unemployment in my constituency will remain. Can he assure me that this process will take place sooner rather than later?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman makes a really important point about his constituency. I am aware that huge decisions are being contemplated not just for his part of Ayrshire but for all parts of Scotland, and investors do not like uncertainty. We have seen the Citigroup report and the observations of the CBI and the Institution of Mechanical Engineers. It is bad for Scotland and for the UK to have this uncertainty. I want to see the referendum sooner rather than later and we will do everything in our power to ensure that we can do that.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

I am really pleased that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has grasped this particular thistle. If there is an intention to build HW2, or Hadrian’s Wall 2, surely we need to know because many large projects will stop short of Scotland should the Scots not wish to be part of the Union.

[Michael Moore]

I do not know how many questions the Secretary of State for Transport took on High Speed 2, but that was a clever and ingenious further question. My hon. Friend is entirely right to highlight that for High Speed 2 to get to Scotland, everybody would need to work together, but with an independent Scotland who knows what they might think of that. Let us not forget that it is not just High Speed 2 that is relevant. Lots of defence projects in Scotland are hugely dependent and are part of the Scottish economy, whether they are on the Clyde or in Fife. For many reasons I think that Scotland should continue to be within the UK.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Is it the UK Government’s position that the referendum should take place within 18 months of today?

[Michael Moore]

No. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the consultation paper, he will see that no date was set in the consultation. I certainly believe it should be sooner rather than later and I hope to persuade the Scottish Government and people across Scotland that we should have it as soon as possible. However, 18 months is not the position of the Government and is not in the consultation document.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I welcome the statement. The Electoral Commission is independent and is the only body with the expertise to oversee this referendum. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be an outrage if the referendum proceeded as per the SNP’s draft Bill whereby it would be overseen by a body that would not be independent of the Scottish Government? The SNP has a mandate to hold a referendum not to rig a referendum.

[Michael Moore]

I absolutely agree that it is vital that people can have confidence in the referendum process, that it has a legal basis, that it is fair and that it will get a clear, decisive outcome. The role of a body such as the Electoral Commission will be vital because only through its neutrality, independence and experience can we get the necessary confidence so that the process and rules are not an issue. I hope that as we discuss and debate this issue across Scotland people will agree that the commission is the right body to oversee the referendum.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State has already responded to a question this afternoon about the eligibility of 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum. I have only had a chance to have a fairly cursory look at the draft order attached to his consultation paper, but perhaps he can clarify whether it will be the case that European citizens living in Scotland will be eligible to vote in a referendum but 16 and 17-year-olds will not. I understand the pressures of government, but will he support his own party’s policy—it has been a long-standing proponent of 16 and 17-year-olds having the vote—and support the rights of 16 and 17-year-olds to vote?

[Michael Moore]

What we are proposing is the same franchise as was good enough for the First Minister and every MSP in the Scottish Parliament. I find it slightly strange that people would argue that was not somehow a legitimate franchise on which to be elected. As to my own party’s position, I was clear about that earlier on, but I also made the point—I hope the hon. Lady would accept this—that we can argue about the role of 16 and 17-year-olds in the democratic process legitimately for all elections and all referendums and electoral events; to pick it out on one moment and to apply it in these particular circumstances would, I think, be wrong. But let us have the debate; let us see what people across Scotland believe.

[Mr Speaker]

Seeking now single supplementary questions of stunning succinctness, my eyes look no further than Dr Julian Lewis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I knew that would be the case. Does the Secretary of State believe that there is any danger of the SNP boycotting a legitimate referendum, and if so, what would be the outcome if the vote were in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman invites me to consider a hypothetical question, which I do not believe will be the reality. I think it is important—and I believe it would be very strange if the Scottish Government did not—that they engage in the process of discussing this and that they consider the aspects that we are putting forward in the consultation today about providing a legal basis for a referendum and having a fair process and a decisive outcome. I think that that is important, and it would seem very strange if the Scottish Government were to turn round and say they did not want to be part of that process.

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

Deciding about independence is, of course, the sovereign right of the Scottish people and has consequences for the rest of the citizens of the United Kingdom. Will the Secretary of State raise with the Scottish Government the precise date upon which the radioactive materials from Scotland stored in my constituency will be returned to Scotland in the event of independence? [Interruption.]

[Michael Moore]

A colleague says from a sedentary position that that is a toxic question. The hon. Gentleman raises one of many issues that we have had sight of this afternoon that perhaps need to be debated when we get on to the referendum. What I am trying to do is make sure that, reasonably and quickly, we get on to that very referendum.

[Louise Mensch (Corby) (Con)]

Corby is the fastest-growing town in England and it boasts one of the largest concentrations of people of Scottish heritage and descent south of the border. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for saying that people outwith Scotland will be consulted during the consultation, but will he assure me that Scots who live outside of Scotland will get the chance to have their voices heard?

[Michael Moore]

We will not restrict this consultation to people who consider themselves Scots. Wherever they might live—in Monaco or elsewhere—they will be entitled to take part in this consultation. When it comes to the vote, I think that, following internationally agreed precedents, it would be important that it is the people in Scotland who make that decision.

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

What approaches has the Secretary of State made so far to discuss referendum issues with the Scottish Government, and what has been their response?

[Michael Moore]

As I mentioned, I spoke to the First Minister earlier this afternoon, and I hope we will be able to meet soon to discuss the proposals that we have set out in the consultation. We have, of course, for some time been discussing with colleagues in the Scottish Government when they were going to bring forward their own proposals on a referendum. None has been forthcoming, although I hear that today they might be hurrying that up. We have provided the basis for a discussion, and I hope the two Governments can work well together for the people of Scotland.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend and a number of other hon. Members have referred to the uncertainty, particularly over jobs and investment. Can I tell my right hon. Friend that mature opinion in the far north, whether it be in favour of the United Kingdom or in favour of independence, recognises that uncertainty and wishes to see it resolved. Will he therefore ensure that his consultation goes to those of mature political opinion throughout Scotland and ignores the bleatings of those in the nationalist playpen opposite?

[Michael Moore]

I think everybody in Scotland, whatever their temperament, will be welcomed to be part of the consultation, but I agree with my hon. Friend that many from both sides of the debate want the clarity and the legal certainty that we are offering and to get on with the debate—which, after all, has been the reason the SNP has existed for decades. I still am not sure why it is resisting a way forward. I hope that when we discuss the detail, it will agree with us and we will resolve this and get on and have the referendum.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the forthright and determined approach that the Government are taking to ensure that the most important constitutional issue to affect our nation is being taken by the scruff of the neck, quite frankly, and driven by those on the Front Bench. Does the Minister accept that uncertainty about the Union in Northern Ireland caused decades of economic hardship, and that the sooner we get this matter resolved for the rest of the kingdom, the better; and that it is absolutely essential that the Government harness all the support from across the House—on the Opposition Benches as well as the Government Benches—and from our colleagues in Scotland to ensure that, together, we maintain the Union?

[Michael Moore]

May I, with all due deference to the hon. Gentleman, say that I would not, for very obvious reasons, draw a comparison necessarily between the experience in Northern Ireland and the really sensitive challenges that Northern Ireland has faced over a very long period and the experience in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom? Where I would agree with the hon. Gentleman is that uncertainty is bad for business; it is bad for Scots and others in the UK planning their lives and their future. I want to get that uncertainty resolved and get on with the actual referendum, during which I am confident Scotland will vote to continue to be part of the United Kingdom.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the UK opt-out from the single currency is an opt-out for the UK, and that new candidate countries for the European Union are committed, as a matter of law, to sign up to the introduction of the euro?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

There has been a great deal of speculation in advance of this statement about so-called sunset clauses. Will the Secretary of State make it absolutely clear whether he has completely ruled out setting a date or setting some time scale within the order that transfers responsibility to the Scottish Government?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. We have said in the consultation paper—I have said it many times already—that we want this sooner rather than later. We have shown in the draft section 30 order that it would be possible to include a date by which this should be completed. What we have not done is say what that date should be, or the time period leading up to that from the point when we debate it. So we will get on with that process, but it is important that we agree that.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

My constituency is in Beckenham in Kent, but I am a Scot, and I am surrounded by Scots. I have got a Stewart there, my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), and a Stewart there, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). I am a Stewart; I am half a Stewart; and I have got a half-Scot beside me in the Father of the House. We are very interested in what happens in Scotland, and I would like to ask the Secretary of State how we can put our views forward properly about what happens to our ancestral homeland. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Having heard the question from the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), I am all ears; I want to hear the Secretary of State’s answer.

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman was right to say the Stewarts have a proud tradition in Scotland, as do many, many others—I do not wish to get into a battle of the clans. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to take a copy of the consultation, and I look forward to his contribution to it.

[Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)]

We have already heard this afternoon about the SNP’s preference for 16 and 17-year-olds to be able to vote in this one-off referendum. Can the Secretary of State tell me whether there has been any impediment, over the past five years, to the SNP Government in Holyrood lowering the voting age to 16 or 17 for Scottish council elections?

[Michael Moore]

The Scottish Parliament can determine all the appropriate arrangements on devolved matters. What I have said clearly today is that it cannot do that on a referendum about independence. It is important that we sort this out, but I agree that we should judge this by how people have acted rather than by what they complain about now.

[Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)]

Some 1.9 million Scots voted for Unionist parties in 2010, compared with 480,000 who voted for the Scottish National party. Westminster Scottish MPs have every right to speak for Scotland with an equal, if not greater, mandate. Has my right hon. Friend given any consideration to the tens of thousands of service personnel working in Scottish regiments or in the British Army, posted abroad or in England, and whether they will be allowed a vote or a say in the future of the United Kingdom?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend has, of course, represented people in both Scotland and England and he speaks with authority on these matters. I entirely take his point about mandates. He raises an important point about the involvement of defence personnel and I look forward to his contribution to the consultation.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

I welcome today’s statement. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with Ministers about the possibility of a clarity Act, which might be seen as a somewhat less heavy-handed mechanism to force our nationalist friends to ignore their own base instinct and to offer the Scottish people the fair and honest referendum we deserve?

[Michael Moore]

Nobody here intends to be heavy-handed or to force anything. What we want to do is find agreement that will enable us here at Westminster to ensure that the Scottish Parliament has the powers to conduct the referendum and that it does so in a fair and decisive way. We are starting a consultation period today. I look forward to everybody contributing to it.

[James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con)]

The Secretary of State has indicated that he believes that only those who are on the electoral register in Scotland should get to vote in any referendum. Does that extend to registered overseas voters who remain on the Scottish register? If it does, will he look at the possibility of extending that facility to those Scots who find themselves living not abroad, but elsewhere in the United Kingdom?

[Michael Moore]

As I have said on a number of occasions, we are proposing that the franchise should be that which elects the Scottish Parliament.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

The leader of the Scottish Labour party called today for cross-party talks in Scotland on issues including the date of the referendum. I know that the Secretary of State has already welcomed cross-party talks. Can he confirm that the Liberal Democrats would be willing to participate, and that he in his role as Secretary of State would participate in such talks?

[Michael Moore]

I am sure the new Scottish Labour leader will be talking to our colleague Willie Rennie, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, but I agree with the principle. We should all be talking together so that we can ensure that we get the right process for the referendum, we make it legal, we ensure that there is a fair process beyond reproach and that we get a clear-cut outcome. That is in all our interests and I welcome the principle that we should all meet to talk.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

Surely the clear message today from the statement is to the Scottish Government to engage in the consultation, because it gives the clearest opportunity for the people of Scotland to have clarity in a debate that is based on the issues and not one that is dragged through the courts.

[Michael Moore]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

A good new year to you, Mr Speaker, and to all Members of the House.

Fuel poverty is rising, child poverty is rising and pensioner poverty is rising. We have seen from the arrogance of Members on the Scottish National party Benches that this matter is going to end up in court. How much will the consultation and the referendum cost the British taxpayer?

[Michael Moore]

I reciprocate the wishes of the hon. Gentleman for a happy new year and hope we may all be in a good mood throughout it. Of course there will be a cost to any democratic process, but it is clear that we have a major historic decision to make. I am keen that we get on with that and that we do it in a clear, fair and decisive way.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

During the consideration of the Scotland Act 1998 in this place, the then Scottish Secretary, Donald Dewar, said:

“A referendum that purported to pave the way for something that was ultra vires is itself ultra vires.”—[Official Report, 12 May 1998; Vol. 312, c. 598.]

In the absence of his being able to publish legal advice, does my right hon. Friend agree that that statement makes it perfectly clear where the law stands?

[Michael Moore]

As ever, my hon. Friend has been assiduous in his homework, for which I commend him. Indeed, the late sadly lost leader, Donald Dewar, when he debated it from the Dispatch Box all those years ago, set out clearly what he believed would or would not be allowable within the law. I think the Act was well written. It is clear and I invite everybody to scrutinise it. I believe that when they do, they will come to the same conclusion as we have. Therefore we need to get on and provide a legal basis for the referendum.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

The Scottish Secretary made great play of what he called uncertainty threatening business investment, so he will be aware of the Wood Mackenzie report today, which shows record North sea investment planned for 2012 and consistently high investment going beyond 2014, which rather gives the lie to the allegation that he made. Will he come clean with the House? Can he name one company that has threatened not to invest, or will he finally do the right thing and apologise for his scaremongering?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman is not usually so churlish. He should understand better than almost anyone else, because he studies these things carefully, that businesses take decisions on a very long time scale. They are looking for certainty. They want confidence in the future, and as we have seen with the Citigroup report, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers and the CBI, which the last time I looked spoke for many businesses across Scotland and the UK, uncertainty is bad for business and bad for jobs. Let us get rid of that uncertainty. I cannot understand why the hon. Gentleman and his friends do not want to resolve this and get on with the real debate.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will have seen today’s press reports which say that apparently, as of this week, the Scottish First Minister is applying the finishing touches to his own referendum plans and will publish them in the next month. If that turns out to be the case, would the Secretary of State agree that at last we were making some progress?

[Michael Moore]

I hope that on the basis of the early conversation that we have had and the intent on my part that we should have further discussions, we will be able to consider the proposals that we have set out in detail this afternoon. It makes common sense and it is the most reasonable proposition on earth that we should get the two Governments working together to provide a legal, certain basis for the referendum, and then we can get on and have this most profound debate about our future in Scotland.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I welcome the commitment from the Secretary of State to the broadest negotiation and widest discussion within Scotland on the subject, but I hope he will agree that it is unwise to conduct the debate through statements made in the media or on television programmes, even by people as exalted as the Prime Minister.

[Michael Moore]

Over the coming weeks we will have many different ways of contributing to the debate, whether we are politicians or people across Scotland. I look forward, whether in my own constituency or any other part of Scotland, to people looking at the consultation, engaging with the issues and giving us their views. It is not about politicians. It is about the people of Scotland.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Relentless debate in Scotland led by the Scottish Government about Scottish independence causes great uncertainty throughout the United Kingdom, including in Wales. We cannot afford this distraction. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the issue should be dealt with as quickly as possible to ensure that Governments throughout the United Kingdom, including devolved Governments, concentrate and focus on growth, jobs and the things that we really need?

[Michael Moore]

Yes.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

It will come as no surprise that I welcome and agree with the Secretary of State’s desire to hold a referendum as soon as possible. Does he agree that the desire of the SNP Government in Scotland to hold a referendum as late as possible is an indication of their inability to answer the many, many questions that have been put to them by the Scottish people on separatism?

[Michael Moore]

As I have said a few times this afternoon and many times elsewhere, it is a real curiosity for a party that has always existed for one purpose to be so reticent about getting on with the debate about Scotland’s future within the United Kingdom or as a separate country. I hope that we will now get a proper, constructive, reasonable engagement where we can get on with that real debate.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that a referendum should not involve a sterile discussion of costs and benefits or political advantage, but the great strengths that Scotland brings within the United Kingdom and that being part of the United Kingdom brings to Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

In answer to an earlier question, the Secretary of State again went on about the uncertainty caused by the lack of a referendum, but when the Prime Minister’s spokesman was asked about this this morning, the only thing he could refer to was a Citigroup report, the same one that the Secretary of State referred to, which is specifically on renewables. But if he looks at it he will know that Gamesa, SG, Doosan Babcock, Mitsubishi, Aquamarine Power, EDP Renewables and Repsol—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The statement has been going on a long time already and Members still wish to speak. The hon. Gentleman knows very well that he should be brief.

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman needs to pay attention to people at the CBI and others and recognise that it is self-evident that when there is uncertainty about the constitutional future of Scotland, investment decisions will become difficult. I want to get all question of uncertainty removed from the debate. I cannot understand why they seem so reluctant to get on with it.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

The SNP at Holyrood has a political mandate to hold a referendum on independence, so I welcome my right hon. Friend’s plans to devolve the powers so that it can be held legally and fairly, but does he agree that page 28 of the SNP manifesto clearly shows that that mandate is for a simple yes-no question, so that there is no confusion, no legal chaos, just a decisive result, decided by the voters, not the courts?

[Michael Moore]

There have been a number of months where the prospect of two questions has been bandied around, although when pressed Ministers were unable to answer how one would determine which result to pay heed to if both were given yes votes, particularly if independence got, say, 51% and extra powers got 80%. Apparently, independence would have won. We need a single, clear question, and I am glad that after many months of skirting around this, the Deputy First Minister yesterday conceded that point and said she wanted a single question herself.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. Could he therefore confirm that if the UK Government devolve the power to hold a referendum on separation, as he has said, to the Scottish Government, Alex Salmond would have no excuses left whatsoever for not getting on this year, or next year at the very latest, with holding a referendum on Scotland’s future?

[Michael Moore]

I want that referendum to take place sooner rather than later. We are offering to fix a problem that exists and make sure that we can get on and conduct that referendum in a reasonable way. I hope that we will be able to work together with the Scottish Government to get those issues resolved and get on with that debate.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

I welcome the statement and congratulate the Government on their leadership on this important matter to Scotland and the UK. What reassurance has the Secretary of State had from the Scottish National party and the First Minister that they will work with the UK Government on this and accept a fair, legal and decisive referendum?

[Michael Moore]

I hope that the Scottish National party will engage with this. I am pretty sure that it will because when it gets the chance to study the detail, it will see that what we are offering is a very reasonable process by which we can get rid of the legal uncertainty and have a fairly conducted and decisive referendum.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

Further to an earlier question about the manifesto, is the Secretary of State aware that nowhere in the SNP manifesto, as far as I am aware, does it say that a referendum will take place in the second part of the Parliament? It says only that a referendum will take place. It constantly tells us that it has an overwhelming mandate to hold a referendum in the second half of the Parliament; that is strictly not true.

[Michael Moore]

The manifesto was clear. It was about a straightforward question on independence, not about the timing. We believe this should happen sooner rather than later, and I look forward to the responses that we get from people across Scotland.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

Given the references that we have heard in the public debate on this matter to legally binding referendums and consultative referendums, does the Secretary of State agree that that is a totally false distinction?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend has put her finger right at the heart of the issue. There is no distinction in the legal status of referendums in Scotland between one that might be considered advisory or consultative on the one hand, and a so-called legally binding one on the other. The Scottish Parliament does not have the power to have a referendum on independence. We are offering a way by which we can devolve that power on a fair and reasonable basis that will ensure that we get a clear and decisive outcome.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that the SNP is putting a significant amount of effort into fundraising, given that this is basically everything that they are all about. What does he think his role should be in ensuring that there is a full debate in Scotland? Does he agree that many people in Scotland have not really given proper consideration to the arguments for and against separation?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady gets to the heart of the issue about how we would conduct the referendum when it takes place and the need for it to be done on a basis that is recognised and not challenged by people who are either participants or voters. It is important that spending limits and all other aspects of the rules of the process are clear. It is for that reason that we are suggesting that the Electoral Commission might be, or would be, the appropriate way to oversee the process. I hope that as we debate this people will agree on that point.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

My constituents in Kettering deserve a say on the future make-up of the United Kingdom just as much as the Secretary of State’s constituents in Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk. The way to overcome the legal challenge is not to devolve the powers to the Scottish Government, but to hold a UK-wide yes or no referendum with the result announced in two parts, one the result from Scotland and second the result from everywhere else, because it may well be that Scotland votes to stay, but the rest of the country invites Scotland to leave.

[Michael Moore]

If I may say so, I regret the slightly discordant tone of my hon. Friend’s observation. I have answered the point several times already. It is important that we follow the democratically appropriate route and the internationally recognised way of doing this and allow for self-determination within Scotland on this important issue.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. Can he assure me that this Government will be robust in its defence of the Union?

[Michael Moore]

I am absolutely committed to Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom. When we can get on to that debate, I will be clear in arguing the case on that, day in and day out. At the moment we have to get to that debate, and today we have offered a reasonable and straightforward way that we might do that.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) is exactly right. The SNP manifesto last year made no reference whatsoever to the second half of the Parliament, but does the Secretary of State feel that if the legal powers are transferred and the SNP has a good showing in May’s local government elections, the First Minister might just take a gamble, ignore the second half of the Parliament and go for a snap referendum?

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Moore]

I am not going to speculate on the election results in May, but I agree that we should get a clear basis for the referendum and get it sooner rather than later.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State has made a big issue of a point of law, but in June last year, Professor Stephen Tierney, professor of constitutional theory at Edinburgh university, said:

“The Scottish Parliament has the authority to stage a referendum.”

Does the Secretary of State agree that Scotland’s democratic Parliament does not need Westminster’s permission for a self-determination referendum, although a generous spirit from the Westminster Government would indeed be welcome?

[Michael Moore]

I am afraid that for reasons that should now be obvious I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that in Wales a convention process took place before the referendum on further powers. Can he explain exactly how we will ensure the fullest possible participation by trade unions, the business community and a genuinely representative cross-section of civic society in the consultation that he has announced?

[Michael Moore]

The consultation is open to everyone in Scotland and across the United Kingdom, and indeed elsewhere, should they wish to offer their opinions. I am confident that we will get a good response, and I hope that we will then be able to chart a way to getting a legal, fair and decisive referendum and a proper decision on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I understand that the Scottish First Minister has announced that there will be a referendum in the autumn of 2014. Will the Secretary of State give his reaction to that indication, and tell us whether it is correct?

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Moore]

I anticipate that the debate over the timing of the referendum will continue for a long time unless we resolve the legal basis on which a referendum might take place. At the moment, no referendum initiated by the Scottish Parliament could take place. We are determined to ensure that we give the Scottish Parliament that power in the appropriate way so that we can get on with the debate as soon as possible.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

More Welsh Members are left until the end, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is not the SNP wrong to say that there have never been binding referendums in the UK before? Was not the unsuccessful referendum on the alternative vote that the Government held last year a binding referendum?

[Michael Moore]

It is not a question of whether the referendum is binding, consultative, advisory or whatever other adjective the hon. Gentleman cares to apply. At the present time, the Scottish Parliament could not bring forward a referendum on a legal basis. We want to ensure that it can do so, and are offering the way that that can be done through the consultation.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

It is not just the euro that an independent Scotland would have to sign up to if it wanted to join the European Union, is it? It would also have to sign up to the Schengen agreement, because European law makes it absolutely clear that that would have to happen. Would we be considering setting up border controls between England and Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

As the Member of Parliament who represents the longest stretch of that border, I hope that we will never be in a position in which such barriers might exist. I am confident that when we get to the proper debate, that will not be the way it ends up.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Secretary of State, thank you. Some 57 Back-Bench Members participated in the statement.

Energy Towing Vessels

Michael Moore Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

On 10 October 2011, I announced to the House that the Scotland Office would lead efforts to secure a long-term replacement for the emergency towing vessels (ETV) service in waters surrounding the Northern Isles and Western Isles. Extensive discussions have since taken place with a very wide range of interested parties, including senior representatives of the oil and shipping industries as well as public sector organisations.

I am pleased to confirm that the north sea oil industry, led by Oil & Gas UK and its member companies, has indicated its willingness to offer support by establishing a call-off arrangement for their chartered vessels to be deployed in support of HM coastguard in the event of an emergency. Detailed work is under way between operators, vessel owners and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency on working practices and necessary protocols governing the arrangements. During the last meeting of the Scottish ETV working group, I discussed the matter in depth with Oil & Gas UK, local authorities and other interested parties who have responded positively to this proposal. With that in mind, I have instructed that work should proceed quickly with a view to putting a framework in place as early as possible in the new year.

This is a very positive development offering additional reassurance to local communities, particularly those in the Northern Isles. This step also demonstrates active support by the oil industry for corporate social responsibility and I greatly welcome their helpful contribution and constructive engagement.

The Government intend to use the remainder of the £3 million funding provided by the Department for Transport to maintain cover until no later than 31 March 2012. Further work will continue with local authorities along the west coast to examine all viable long-term options for those waters, and I will reconvene a further meeting of the working group early in the new year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Michael Moore Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

7. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister on the construction industry in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

I recognise the vital role that the construction industry plays in the Scottish and UK economy. The plan for growth includes a wide range of measures to support the industry across the UK. I have regular discussions with Scottish Ministers on these and other matters of importance to the Scottish economy.

[Mr Brown]

May I say to the Secretary of State that his Under-Secretary and I have one thing in common? We still have construction workers who remain unemployed after R & D Construction went into administration earlier this year. Does the Secretary of State fully recognise that throughout the UK, and especially in Scotland, there are far too many unemployed construction workers, who desperately want to get back to work? He needs to encourage the Scottish Government to stimulate that sector.

[Michael Moore]

I agree that we must take all appropriate measures to get the economy on the right footing. As he will appreciate, we have a big challenge clearing up the mess left by the previous Government and the challenging situation in the eurozone, but we are determined, through our credible deficit plan and with a strong economy, to get construction and other sectors in the right place.

[Jim Sheridan]

The Secretary of State might be aware of the major lobby today by construction workers throughout the UK, many of them from Scotland. They are concerned about proposals by six national construction companies to change the national agreement for electricians. Given what is going on in Scotland, when he next meets the First Minister will he remind him of the excellent work being done in both Parliaments in providing quality partnerships? The proposal by those construction companies could undermine all that good work.

[Michael Moore]

I agree that it is vital that the UK Government and the Scottish Government work together. Whether that is on terms and conditions or on the general state of the economy, it is extremely important. We as the UK Government have taken important steps to support the Scottish Government in their efforts with the economy.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the considerable construction activity taking place prior to deployment of marine energy in the Pentland firth, particularly at places such as Scrabster harbour? What more can this Government do to ensure that the right infrastructure is constructed now so that we benefit from the opportunity of marine renewable energy in the future?

[Michael Moore]

As my hon. Friend knows, through our plan for growth, which sets out the basis on which we will support the economy through these difficult times—cutting corporation tax, reducing the burden of income tax, reducing the national insurance burden and, with a huge investment in marine renewables, reforming the energy market—we are laying the foundations for that important sector to develop. It is important that that is not undermined by the uncertainty that the independence referendum is causing in Scotland at present.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

A competitive tax position is vital for the construction sector and the rest of the Scottish economy. That is why the Scottish Government have called for the devolution of corporation tax powers. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the UK Government are actively considering the devolution of corporation tax to Northern Ireland?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman knows full well that we have had a consultation about corporation tax devolution to Northern Ireland and we are reviewing the responses to it. I wish we could say the same for the response to the Scottish Government’s consultation on their corporation tax proposals. We have asked a series of fundamental questions about the proposals but they have gone unanswered. We have yet to see the consultation responses, so I suggest the hon. Gentleman ask his friend the First Minister to get on with that.

[Angus Robertson]

The Secretary of State has taken the opportunity in the past to say that the UK Government will consider the devolution of corporation tax powers to Scotland, but Dr Graham Gudgin, an adviser to the Northern Ireland Secretary, confirmed in evidence to the Scottish Parliament that the UK Government have already ruled out the devolution of corporation tax “under any circumstances”. Both statements cannot be true, so which is true?

[Michael Moore]

We have said that we want to consider any valid proposals brought forward by the Scottish Government, but they must first establish a credible, detailed position, maintain the consensus across the parties and ensure that there is no detriment to Scotland or the rest of the UK. The Scottish National party and the First Minister have so far failed to deliver the detail.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I ask the Secretary of State to pay particular attention to the concerns raised this morning about the construction industry in Scotland, where 10,000 jobs have been lost this year and the number of companies facing bankruptcy has risen by 135% in the past two years. With that in mind, will he support Labour’s call, and that of the Scottish Building Federation, for a one-year cut in VAT on home improvements to 5%, a specific action to help boost the construction industry and get the Scottish economy moving again?

[Michael Moore]

I welcome the hon. Lady to her new post, without, if I may say so, wishing her too much success in it. She brings a great deal of experience to the House and I look forward to our encounters. We have heard Labour’s proposals for reducing VAT, but I have to tell her that when that was last done it did not deliver the hoped-for outcome. As we are seeing across the eurozone, countries cannot spend their way out of a debt crisis. We need a credible plan and we have to deliver on it, which is what we are doing.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the Secretary of State for his kind opening remarks and look forward to robust debates and work in the coming years. I am sorry to say that his answer is completely inadequate, because previous VAT cuts did deliver growth. The Government’s failed policies mean that they are set to borrow £46 billion more this year, rather than reduce the deficit. In reality, Scots face a double-whammy: a Tory-led Government cutting too far and too fast, and an SNP Government presiding over stagnant growth and cuts in capital spending. Scotland is in the midst of a crisis—a jobs crisis and a growth crisis. If he will not follow Labour’s five-point plan to boost jobs and growth in Scotland, what specific action will the Government take in Scotland and for Scotland to get our economy moving again?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady cannot skip so lightly away from the mess we inherited from the previous Government: the highest deficit in peacetime history and we were borrowing £1 for every £4 we spent, which was simply unsustainable. It is absolutely vital that we keep to our credible deficit reduction plan and deliver on the plan for growth by cutting corporation tax, maintaining low interest rates and reducing regulatory and national insurance burdens. As far as Scotland is concerned, I agree that the tax hike in the Scottish Government’s spending review is bad for business. They must acknowledge that we have helped with pre-payments for the replacement Forth crossing and by making land available from the Ministry of Defence. We are helping the Scottish Government in many ways.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

2. Whether he has a policy on a threshold that would be required to vote in favour of independence before legislating for Scottish independence.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The Government have no such policy. The Scottish Government have said that they will introduce proposals for a referendum, and we urge them to end the delay and uncertainty by doing so. Whenever there is a referendum, the UK Government will make the case for a prosperous Scotland in a modern UK.

[Kevin Brennan]

Should not any referendum that has profound implication for Wales, Northern Ireland and England as well as Scotland involve an absolutely clear and straightforward choice between remaining in the UK and separation, rather than muddying the waters with what my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) has called the “I can’t believe it’s not independence” option?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. With a BBC poll at the weekend showing that barely a quarter of Scots favour independence, it is no great surprise that the SNP is taking Scotland for granted and running away from an independence poll. It is creating uncertainty that is damaging for business. Let us have a clear question and get on with it.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

In considering Scottish independence, has the Secretary of State seen recent legal advice stating that an independent Scotland would be either outside the European Union, and therefore would lose EU funding and access to free markets, or required to join the euro as a new accession state? Does he agree that that is further evidence that breaking up the UK would be bad for the people of Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The idea that the SNP can take it for granted that Scotland would enter the EU without negotiation and consideration of such issues is entirely fanciful. That is part of the uncertainty that needs to be resolved sooner rather than later.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

On 8 May the Scottish Secretary ruled out a 40% rule in a rigged referendum. He also said that the referendum was entirely a matter for the Scottish Government and that he would not be raising any constitutional questions. Does he stand by that?

[Michael Moore]

I do not think we should take any lessons on rigged referendums from the hon. Gentleman’s party, which is determined not to have a straightforward question on Scottish independence—the whole reason it exists—but to bring in other issues as well. Let us get a straightforward question now and end the damaging uncertainty.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

3. What steps he is taking to reduce administrative costs in his Department.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the benefits to Scotland of the Union; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

As part of the United Kingdom, Scotland’s economic opportunities are larger, our public finances are more robust, our defence is stronger, our influence on the international stage is greater, the welfare system is more secure and our cultural and family ties are closer. Those are just half a dozen reasons why we are stronger together.

[Mark Menzies]

Does the Secretary of State agree that, given the tough economic crisis facing small European countries, the worst thing for Scotland would be to become a small independent country dependent on the eurozone, rather than being part of the United Kingdom and having the strength that brings?

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the issues that face Scotland if it chooses to be independent and the fact that such a process cannot take place without some very hard-nosed negotiations with our European partners, who are facing real difficulties all over the continent. We need the SNP to spell out its plans on how it will deal with those issues—then let us get on with the independence referendum.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the social union, the Commonwealth, the monarchy and particularly the current Queen—Queen Elizabeth—will be important whatever constitutional arrangements Scotland has in the future? That, of course, would mirror the situation in independent Canada, New Zealand and Australia, with Scotland being the Queen’s 17th independent realm.

[Michael Moore]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s passion for Scotland’s independence, but I wish it were shared with some intention to get on with the debate. The chairman of the independence campaign is sitting beside him. What are they scared of? Let us get on with it.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend has outlined the benefits to Scotland of European Union membership and the uncertainty that would surround those benefits in the event that Scotland were to be independent. Does he agree that it would help to resolve that uncertainty if the Scottish Government published the legal advice they have had on the point, so that it may contribute properly to the debate?

[Michael Moore]

My right hon. and learned Friend makes a very important point. The idea that we would somehow simply get membership of the European Union with complete agreement, without discussion and without needing to worry about the terms of negotiation is quite fanciful. It is a journey into the unknown and we need to have the detail.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

One of the many benefits associated with the Union is the certainty provided by Scotland’s continuing membership of the European Union. Has the Secretary of State seen the impartial Library research published yesterday, which indicates that Scotland may have to go through an accession process to stay in the EU if it becomes a separate state? That research also shows that if Scotland were accepted as a member state, according to the most recent data, net annual contributions to the EU from Scottish taxpayers would rise to £92 per capita compared with only £57 per capita from the rest of the UK. Would it not be contrary to Scotland’s national and economic interests to separate from the rest of the UK if it meant Scotland ended up out of the EU or paying more to stay in the EU, and only if it adopted the euro?

[Michael Moore]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new role, in which he is already demonstrating his forensic attention to detail. I am delighted that he has put his point across, and I completely agree with him about the uncertainty that all this causes.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

5. What recent discussions he has with Ofgem on energy prices in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

I recently discussed this issue with Ofgem and other key stakeholders at the energy summit I held in Bathgate on 20 October. This Government are determined to help people to reduce their energy bills and I welcome Ofgem’s recent proposals to reform the retail energy market.

[John Robertson]

The right hon. Gentleman’s Government want to put a bonfire under quangos, so how does Ofgem chairman Lord Mogg’s £200,000-a-year salary for a three-day week sit with not going above the Prime Minister’s salary?

[Michael Moore]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are talking about energy prices rather than salaries, but I am sure that the talents of the Secretary of State will allow him to remain in order.

[Michael Moore]

I am delighted to say to the hon. Gentleman that I recognise his long-standing concerns on all these issues—not only salaries but energy prices. Our proposals to simplify matters and to help people to switch and to get greater transparency in their bills, and all the other reforms being introduced by Ofgem, are crucial. I look forward to Ofgem getting on with that work.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

One of the key groups of customers facing high energy prices this year is those who are not on the gas main and heat their homes with oil, LPG and other fuels. At the moment, sadly, Ofgem does not have a remit for them. Will my right hon. Friend discuss with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether there is any way that those suppliers can be made to engage with their vulnerable consumers in the same way as mains gas suppliers have to?

[Michael Moore]

My colleagues in the Department for Energy and Climate Change will meet to discuss this in the next few weeks. My hon. Friend is right to highlight the issue, and I look forward to picking it up with him at some time in the near future.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

Yesterday the Secretary of State for DECC sent a letter to all MPs promoting the Government’s policy of check, switch and insulate, but how does the Secretary of State suggest that off-grid customers can check or switch when in many areas there is a virtual monopoly on home fuel oil? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Far too many private conversations are taking place in the Chamber. We need to hear the Secretary of State.

[Michael Moore]

As I said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), we want to discuss these issues. Representing a big rural area without gas grid access, I recognise that this is an important matter, and I am happy to discuss it with the hon. Gentleman too.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

6. What assessment his Department has made of the report of Electoral Commission Scotland on the 2011 elections to the Scottish Parliament; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)]

8. What recent discussions he has had on the deployment of carbon capture and storage technology in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

My most recent meeting with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to discuss this issue was on 10 October. Although it was not possible to reach a deal on Longannet, the Government remain firmly committed to carbon capture and storage and I welcome the confirmation given by the Treasury that the £1 billion of funding will be made available for future CCS projects.

[Mr Doran]

The Government in the 1980s refused to invest in wind power and threw away our world lead in renewables. Are this Government making the same mistake by refusing to invest in the most advanced industrial-scale carbon capture and storage project in the world at Longannet?

[Michael Moore]

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman on that, but I do agree that we are determined to see Britain take a leading role in this important technology. That is why the £1 billion of investment is still available and why Peterhead and other parts of the UK will be able to bid for it.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

I hope that the Secretary of State will welcome this morning’s announcement by Scottish and Southern Energy and Shell that they are bringing the project at Peterhead one step closer. What assurances can he give that the project will not be shelved, as the last Peterhead project for carbon capture and storage was by the previous Government, and that we will see this investment?

[Michael Moore]

In a week when a major international bank has talked about the impact that the uncertainty over independence is having on renewables investment in Scotland, we will take no lessons from the SNP about uncertainty. As I said to the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), it is vital that Peterhead and other places come forward with their bids, and £1 billion is available to support them.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

9. What discussions he has had with the First Minister on reform of the common fisheries policy.

Emergency Towing Vessels

Michael Moore Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

I am pleased to confirm to the House that the Scotland Office is now leading efforts to secure a long-term replacement for the emergency towing vessels (ETV) service in waters surrounding the Northern Isles and Western Isles.

It has been agreed that interim funding will be provided from the UK Government to support the service for up to three months while this work continues. The contract will be managed by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and every effort will be made to ensure value-for-money for the public purse.

The Scotland Office, drawing on technical and operational advice from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and Scottish stakeholders from the UK ETV working group, will lead efforts to broker a long- term replacement for the service. Time scales are tight and this work will be progressed as a matter of urgency. I will convene a meeting of a Scottish ETV working group on Monday 17 October, comprising representatives of Highlands and Islands local authorities. Marine Scotland, KIMO (Kommunenes Internasjonale Miljøorganisasjon) and other interested parties. An announcement will be made by the end of the year notifying the House of the outcome of this work.