Scotland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

Consideration of Lords amendments

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendment 22. If the House agrees with the amendment, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal.

Clause 3

Elections

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 2 to 62.

[David Mundell]

This is a truly significant day for Scotland. If this Bill completes its parliamentary progress, it will add to the already extensive responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament a range of important new powers. It provides even greater opportunities for the Scottish Government to tailor and deliver Scottish solutions to Scottish issues. The Scottish Parliament that returns in May will be a powerhouse Parliament that has come of age. Crucially, it will be much more accountable to the people who elect it, which is the hallmark of a mature democratic institution.

I am pleased to say that Lord Smith of Kelvin has confirmed that the Bill puts into law the agreement that the five main political parties in Scotland reached, and that the fiscal framework that was agreed means that the recommendations of his commission have been delivered in full.

Last week, the Scottish Parliament debated the motion on whether to grant legislative consent to the Bill before us today, and the agreement was unanimous. Deputy First Minister John Swinney remarked:

“The Smith process delivered an agreement for additional powers that—if they are used in the right way—can benefit the people of Scotland.”—[Scottish Parliament Official Report, 16 March 2016; c. 3.]

I agree with him wholeheartedly on that.

The debate last week demonstrated the consensus among all parties in Scotland that these new powers present a tremendous opportunity for Scotland. That was clear in their unanimous vote to grant legislative consent to this Bill. This process goes to show that both of Scotland’s Governments and both of Scotland’s Parliaments can work effectively together in the interest of the people in Scotland and right across our United Kingdom.

No individual or party held a monopoly of wisdom on how the Smith agreement might best be translated into legislation. Many people, both inside and outside this Chamber, have contributed to the Bill as it stands before us today. I thank hon. Members and noble Lords for their contributions as the Bill passed through this House and the other place.

Scotland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Bob Blackman]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Last night, on Remembrance Sunday, a picture of a swastika was projected on to the House of Commons with a message saying, “Modi not welcome”. As you will be aware, the Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi, is visiting here later this week. Can you confirm that this will be thoroughly investigated, that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Government or the House authorities, and that the perpetrators will be caught and suitably punished?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

On Remembrance Sunday there is no time when it is acceptable to project anything on to the House of Commons without permission, but to project a swastika on the visit of a state leader is totally unacceptable. The point has been made, and it will be taken on board and dealt with. I am absolutely convinced that the police will be looking into it as a matter of urgency.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will you just explain the procedure of the House, because I have not been here very long—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I know that I do not need to explain it to you, and I do not need to waste any more time because we need to move on to the Bill.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

No, this actually is a genuine point of order.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am surprised.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I know they are very rare. Am I right, Mr Deputy Speaker, in thinking that it would be in order for any amendment to be moved? I am rather surprised that the SNP has not moved amendment 224 on “full fiscal autonomy but not quite yet”. Is there any reason that would have prevented it from moving that amendment?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

It is not for the Chair to decide what the SNP does; it is up to the SNP to decide what it moves or does not move. As I said, I knew that it was not a point of order, and I knew that you knew the answer before you asked me.

New Clause 14

“Welfare foods

‘(1) Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, Section F1 (social security schemes) is amended as follows.

(2) In the Exceptions, after exception 8 (see section 23 above) insert—

“Exception 9

The subject-matter of section 13 of the Social Security Act 1988 (benefits under schemes for improving nutrition: pregnant women, mothers and children).”

(3) In the Interpretation provision, at the end insert—

“The reference to the subject-matter of section 13 of the Social Security Act 1988 is to be construed as a reference to it as at the day on which section [Welfare foods] of the Scotland Act 2015 comes into force (and, accordingly, paragraph 5(1) of Part 3 of this Schedule does not apply to that reference).”

(4) Omit Section J5 (welfare foods).

(5) In the Social Security Act 1988, in section 13(2) (benefits under schemes for improving nutrition: consultation) omit “the Scottish Ministers and”.”—(David Mundell.)

This amendment devolves to the Scottish Parliament legislative competence regarding welfare foods, enabling the Scottish Parliament, in relation to Scotland, to abolish or amend schemes for the provision of welfare foods, as currently made under section 13 of the Social Security Act 1988, or to make new schemes for the provision of welfare foods.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[David Mundell]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government new clause 34—Power to create other new benefits.

Government new clause 15—Abortion.

Government new clause 16—Public sector duty regarding socio-economic inequalities.

Government new clause 17—Destination of fines, forfeitures and fixed penalties.

New clause 2—

“New benefits

In Section F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, in the Exceptions, after exception 8 (see section 23 above) insert—

“Exception 9

A benefit not in existence at the relevant date provided entitlement to or the purpose of the benefit is different from entitlement to or the purpose of any benefit that is— For the purpose of this exception—

(a) in existence at the relevant date,

(b) payable by or on behalf of a Minister of the Crown, and

(c) otherwise a reserved benefit.

“the relevant date” means the date of introduction into Parliament of the Bill that becomes the Scotland Act 2015;

“reserved benefit” means a benefit which is to any extent a reserved matter.””

The new Clause expands and clarifies the right of the Scottish Government to create new benefits—that is, benefits not in existence on the date on which the bill is passed.

New clause 3—

“Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution

‘(1) There is to be a Committee (to be known as the Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution) to examine the transfer, implementation and operation of the powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament by Part 3 of this Act.

(2) The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution is to be responsible for ensuring full co-operation, consultation and information-sharing between the UK Government, the Scottish Government, and relevant stakeholders.

(3) The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution is to publish a report—

(a) on the transfer and implementation of the powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament by Part 3 of this Act at least once every three months for the first three years from the date when this Act is passed, and

(b) on the operation of the powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament by Part 3 of this Act at least once in each calendar year after three years from the date when this Act is passed.

(4) Schedule (The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution), which makes further provision in relation to the Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution, has effect.”

This new Clause, linked to New Schedule NS1 on the Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution, provides for a cross-Parliament committee to oversee the transition and implementation of welfare powers transferred under this Act. The Committee would include members from both Parliaments and would be required to report frequently in the transition phase and thereafter annually.

New clause 5—

“Childcare element of universal credit

In Section F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, in Exceptions, after exception 6 (see section 22 above) insert—

“Exception 7

The subject-matter of regulations 31 to 34 of the Universal Credit Regulations 2013.””

This new clause would devolve to the Scottish Parliament the power to make rules about the childcare element of Universal Credit.

New clause 10—

“Commission on social and economic rights

‘(1) The Secretary of State shall appoint a commission on social and economic rights.

(2) The Secretary of State shall invite the Presiding Officers or Speakers of the House of Commons, House of Lords, National Assembly of Wales, Northern Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament each to nominate no more than three persons to the commission on social and economic rights.

(3) The commission on social and economic rights must report on—

(a) the practicality of making the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government subject to the rights contained in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights; and

(b) the consequences of Scottish devolution for the attainment of economic and social rights throughout the United Kingdom.

(4) The Secretary of State may by regulations determine the role, composition, organisation and powers of the commission on social and economic rights.”

The purpose of this New Clause is to create a commission to consider whether economic and social rights could be made justiciable in Scotland, and the prospects for achieving fuller attainment of economic and social rights throughout the United Kingdom.

New clause 18—

“Tax credits

‘(1) In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, Section F1 is amended as follows.

(2) In the Exceptions, after exception 9 (see section (Welfare foods) (2) above) insert—

“Exception 10

The subject-matter of the Tax Credits Act 2002.””

This New Clause devolves to the Scottish Parliament the power to make provision for child tax credit, and working tax credit.

New clause 19—

“Employment and industrial relations

‘(1) In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, Head H (Employment) is amended as follows.

(2) Omit Section H1 (employment and industrial relations).

(3) Insert new Section H1A as follows.

“H1A. National Minimum Wage

The subject-matter of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998.””

This new clause would devolve employment rights and duties and industrial relations, except for the national minimum wage, to the Scottish Parliament.

New clause 20—

“National minimum wage

‘(1) In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, Head H (Employment) is amended as follows.

(2) Omit ‘(h) the National Minimum Wage Act 1998’.

(3) For the heading “Exception”, substitute “Exceptions”.

(4) After the heading “Exceptions” insert—

“(none) “The subject-matter of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998.””

This new clause would devolve the subject-matter of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 to the Scottish Parliament.

New clause 21—

“National Insurance: employers’ contributions

‘(1) Section F1 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows.

(2) In the illustrations, omit “National Insurance;”

(3) In the Exceptions, after exception 11 (see section (Benefits relating to children)) insert—

“Exception 12

National Insurance so far as relating to contributions payable by employers.””

This new clause would devolve employers’ National Insurance contributions to the Scottish Parliament.

New clause 22—

“Job search and support

In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, omit Section H3 (job search and support).”

This new clause would devolve employment support programmes to the Scottish Parliament.

New clause 23—

“Working age benefits

In Section F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, in the Exceptions, after exception 9 (see section 23A above) insert—

“Exception 10

Benefits entitlement to which, or the purposes of which, are the same as or similar to those of any of the following benefits—

(a) universal credit under Part 1 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012;

(b) jobseeker’s allowance (whether contributions-based or income based) under the Jobseekers Act 1995;

(c) employment and support allowance (whether contributory or income-related) under Part 1 of the Welfare Reform Act 2007;

(d) income support under section 124 of the Social Security and Benefits Act 1992;

(e) housing benefit under section 130 of that Act and

(f) child tax credit and working tax credit under the Tax Credits Act 2002.

The benefits referred to in paragraphs (a) to (f) above are—(a) in the case of income-based jobseeker’s allowance and income-related employment support allowance, those benefits as they existed on 28 April 2013 (the day before their abolition), (b) in the case of the other benefits, those benefits as they existed on 28 May 2015 (the date of introduction into Parliament of the Bill for the Scotland Act 2015.””

This new clause would devolve working age benefits to the Scottish Parliament.

New clause 24—

“Universal credit: powers to vary other elements

‘(1) A function of making regulations to which this section applies, so far as it is exercisable by the Secretary of State in or as regards Scotland, is exercisable by the Scottish Ministers concurrently with the Secretary of State.

(2) This section applies to—

(a) regulations under section 8(3)(a) of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 (amount in respect of earned income) so far relating to the work allowance (that is, the amount of a claimant’s earned income that is to be disregarded in calculating the amounts to be deducted from the maximum amount in accordance with section 8(3) of that Act),

(b) regulations under section 10 of that Act (amount in respect of responsibility for children and young persons),

(c) regulations under section 12 of that Act (amounts in respect of other particular needs or circumstances) so far as relating to—

(i) the needs or circumstances referred to in subsection (2)(c) of that section (caring responsibilities for a severely disabled person), or

(ii) needs or circumstances of a claimant in paid work relating to childcare costs,

(d) regulations under any of sections 14 to 22, 24 and 25 of that Act (work-related requirements), and

(e) regulations under any of sections 26 to 28 of that Act (sanctions).

(3) The Scottish Ministers may not exercise the function of making regulations to which this section applies unless they have consulted the Secretary of State.

(4) The Secretary of State may not exercise the function of making regulations to which this section applies in or as regards Scotland unless he or she has consulted the Scottish Ministers.

(5) Where regulations are made by the Scottish Ministers by virtue of subsection (1)—

(a) section 43 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 (regulations: procedure) does not apply, and

(b) the regulations are subject to the negative procedure (see Part 2 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010).””

This new clause would give the Scottish Parliament greater flexibility to make changes in Universal Credit.

New clause 25—

“Benefits relating to children

In Section F1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, in the Exceptions, after exception 10 (see section (Working age benefits) above) insert—

“Exception 11

Benefits entitlement to which, or the purposes of which, are the same as or similar to those of any of the following benefits—

(a) guardian’s allowance under section 77 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992;

(b) child benefit under Part 9 of that Act.

The benefits referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) are those benefits as they existed on 28 May 2015 (the date of introduction into Parliament of the Bill for the Scotland Act 2015).””

This new clause would devolve benefits relating to children to the Scottish Parliament.

New clause 26—

“Health and safety

‘(1) In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 (“the 1998 Act”), omit Section H2 (health and safety).

(2) The Health and Safety Executive is a cross-border public authority for the purposes of the 1998 Act.

(3) The 1998 Act applies in relation to the Health and Safety Executive in the same way as it applies in relation to cross-border public authorities specified in an Order in Council under section 88(5) of the 1998 Act.”

This new clause would devolve health and safety to the Scottish Parliament and designates the Health and Safety Executive as a cross-border public authority.

New clause 27—

“Equal opportunities

“In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, omit Section L2 (equal opportunities).”

This new clause would devolve equal opportunities to the Scottish Parliament.

New clause 28—

“Crown property

‘(1) Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 (general reservations) is amended as follows.

(2) Omit paragraph 2(3)

(3) In paragraph 3(3), omit paragraph (a).

(4) After paragraph 3, insert—

“(3A) Without prejudice to paragraphs 2 and 3, paragraph 1 does not reserve—

(a) removing or altering functions of, or conferring functions on, the Crown Estate Commissioners in relation to the holding or management of property within paragraph 3(1),

(b) where a function of the Crown Estate Commissioners of holding property is so removed, the transfer of any property held in exercise of the function.”

(5) Functions relating to Crown property are, so far as they relate to Crown property in or relating to the Scottish offshore region, to be treated for the purposes of the Scotland Act 1998 as exercisable in or as regards Scotland.

(6) In subsection (5)—

“Crown property” means property within paragraph 3(1) of Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, “Scottish offshore region” has the same meaning as in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 (see section 322 of that Act)

(7) In section 1(2) of the Civil List Act 1952 (payment of hereditary revenues into the Scottish Consolidated Fund), omit “from bona vacantia, ultimus haeres and treasure trove”.”

This alternative to clause 31 would reduce the complexity of the current arrangements relating to the Crown Estate by removing the reservation relating to the management of the Crown Estate and provides the Scottish Parliament with full legislative competence in relation to the management of the Crown Estate in or as regards Scotland. It would also transfer any functions of the Crown Estate Commissioners in relation to rights to the continental shelf beyond the 200 nautical mile limit adjacent to Scotland.

New clause 29—

“Party political broadcasts

In Section K1 of Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 (broadcasting), after the reservation insert—

“Exceptions

(a) party political broadcasts in connection with elections that are within the legislative competence of the Parliament, and

(b) referendum campaign broadcasts in connection with referendums held under Acts of the Scottish Parliament.””

New clause 30—

“Broadcasting

Leave out section K1 in Part 2 of Schedule 5 (Broadcasting) to the 1998 Act.”

New clause 31—

“Levies in respect of agriculture, taking wild game, aquaculture and fisheries etc.

‘(1) In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, Section A1 is amended as follows.

(2) In the Exceptions, after the exception for devolved taxes insert—

(3) After the Exceptions insert—

“Interpretation

“agriculture” includes horticulture, fruit growing, seed growing, dairy farming and livestock breeding and keeping, and the use of land as grazing land, meadow land, osier land, market gardens and nursery grounds.

“aquaculture” includes the breeding, rearing or cultivation of fish (of any kind), seafood or aquatic organisms.

“related activity” means the production, processing, manufacture, marketing or distribution of—

(a) anything (including any creature alive or dead) produced or taken in the course of agriculture, taking wild game or aquaculture, or caught (by any means) in a fishery,

(b) any product which is derived to any substantial extent from anything so produced or caught.””

This new Clause would give the Scottish Parliament general legislative competence in respect of agricultural, aquacultural and fisheries levies.

New clause 32—

“Rail Services

In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Act, in section E2, after “Exceptions” there is inserted—

This amendment would devolve rail services in Scotland giving Scottish Ministers full powers and flexibility to decide who would run such services.

New clause 33—

“Civil Aviation Authority

‘(1) In Section 1 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982, at end insert—

“(4) The Secretary of State must consult the Scottish Ministers about the strategic priorities of the Secretary of State in exercising functions under subsection (1), and in relation to activities of the Civil Aviation Authority.

(5) In subsection (4), “Scotland” has the same meaning as in the Scotland Act 1998.””

This New Clause would allow a ‘formal consultative role’ for the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament in setting the strategic priorities for the Civil Aviation Authority.

New schedule 1—The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution

Membership

1 The Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution is to comprise the Secretary of State, who is to be the chair of the Committee, and the following other members—

(a) the Scottish Minister who is responsible to the Scottish Parliament for welfare policy and payments, who is to be the deputy chair of the Committee;

(b) the Member of the House of Commons who is for the time being the Chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee of the House of Commons;

(c) the Member of the Scottish Parliament who is for the time being the Chair of the Welfare Reform Committee of the Scottish Parliament;

(d) two Members of the House of Commons who are not Ministers of the Crown;

(e) two Members of the Scottish Parliament who are not Scottish Ministers; and

(f) two persons representing local government in Scotland.

2 The members of the Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution mentioned in paragraph 1(d) are to be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Speaker of the House of Commons.

3 The members of the Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution mentioned in paragraph 1 (e) are to be appointed to membership of the Committee by the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament.

4 The members of the Joint Committee on Welfare Devolution mentioned in paragraph 1(f) are to be appointed to membership of the Committee by Scottish Ministers after consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

5 In this Schedule, references to the Work and Pensions Select Committee of the House of Commons are—

(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, to be taken (subject to paragraph (b)) to be references to the Committee by its new name;

(b) if the functions of that Committee at the passing of this Act with respect to welfare policy and payments (or functions substantially corresponding thereto) become functions of a different committee of the House of Commons, to be taken to be references to the committee by whom the functions are for the time being exercisable.

6 In this Schedule, references to the Welfare Reform Committee of the Scottish Parliament are—

(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, to be taken (subject to paragraph (b)) to be references to the Committee by its new name;

(b) if the functions of that Committee at the passing of this Act with respect to welfare policy and payments (or functions substantially corresponding thereto) become functions of a different committee of the Scottish Parliament, to be taken to be references to the committee by whom the functions are for the time being exercisable.

Term of office of Committee members

7 A member may resign from the Committee at any time by giving notice to the Secretary of State.

8 A member may be re-appointed (or further re-appointed) to membership of the Committee.

Committee proceedings

9 The Joint Committee on Welfare Reform may determine its own procedure.

10 The validity of any proceedings of the Joint Committee on Welfare Reform is not affected by—

(a) any vacancy among, or

(b) any defect in the appointment of any of, the members of the Committee.

11 The Joint Committee on Welfare Reform may appoint a member of the Committee to act as chair at any meeting of the Committee in the absence of both the Secretary of State and the Scottish Minster who is deputy chair of the Committee.

Advisory Panel

12 The Secretary of State and Scottish Ministers acting jointly may make regulations appointing an advisory panel on the transfer, implementation and operation of the powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament by Part 3 of this Act, comprising academics, representatives of the third sector and voluntary organisations, and other relevant stakeholders.

13 The Joint Committee on Welfare Reform must consult any advisory panel appointed under paragraph 12 of this Schedule.

This new Schedule is linked to New Clause NC3 (Joint Committee on Welfare Reform) and makes provision about membership and proceedings of the Joint Committee, including the appointment of an advisory panel including third sector and academic experts.

Amendment 194, in clause 19, page 21, line 39, leave out from “of” to end of line 7 on page 22 and insert “a disabled person or person with a physical or mental impairment or health condition in respect of effects or needs arising from that disability, impairment or health condition.”

Government amendments 70, 71, 72, 73, 191 and 192

Amendment 21, in clause 21, page 24, leave out lines 13 to 20.

This amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to legislate for topping up reserved benefits by providing financial assistance in any case where the requirement for it arises from reduction, non-payability or suspension of a reserved benefit as a result of an individual’s conduct.

Amendment 159, in clause 22, page 24, leave out lines 36 to 48.

This amendment would remove some of the restrictions, including those relating to sanctions, in relation to discretionary housing payments.

Government amendments 76.

Amendment 22, in clause 22, page 25, leave out lines 1 to 8.

This amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to legislate for making discretionary housing payments by providing financial assistance in any case where the requirement for it arises from reduction, non-payability or suspension of a reserved benefit as a result of an individual’s conduct.

Amendment 23, in clause 23, page 25, leave out lines 30 to 37.

This amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to legislate for making discretionary payments to meet short-term needs by providing financial assistance in any case where the requirement for it arises from reduction, non-payability or suspension of a reserved benefit as a result of an individual’s conduct.

Amendment 161, in clause 23, page 25, line 40, after “individuals”, insert “—

“(a) ”

Amendment 162, in clause 23, page 25, line 45, at end add “, or (b) who are part of a family facing exceptional pressure.”

Amendment 163, in clause 24, page 26, line 20, leave out from “unless” to end of line 25 and insert “they have consulted the Secretary of State”

This amendment would remove the requirement for the Scottish Government to obtain consent from a UK Secretary of State in relation to Universal Credit and the costs of claimants who rent accommodation.

Government amendments 77.

Amendment 24, page 26, line 25, leave out “unreasonably”

This amendment would make it clear that the UK Government cannot withhold agreement and will have a legal obligation to agree to any changes to regulations made by the Scottish Government using the new regulation-making powers conferred under clause 24.

Amendment 32, page 26, line 35, leave out “negative procedure (see section 28” and insert “affirmative procedure (see section 29”

This amendment would require regulations made by Scottish Ministers under subsection (1) of Clause 24 (Universal credit: costs of claimants who rent accommodation) to be subject to the Scottish Parliament’s affirmative procedure.

Amendment 164, in clause 25, page 26, line 45, leave out from “unless” to end of line 5 on page 27 and insert “they have consulted the Secretary of State”.

This amendment would remove the requirement for the Scottish Government to obtain consent from a UK Secretary of State in relation to persons to who, and time when, Universal Credit is paid.

Government amendments 78.

Amendment 25,  page 27, line 5, leave out “unreasonably”.

This amendment would make it clear that the UK Government cannot withhold agreement and will have a legal obligation to agree to any changes to regulations made by the Scottish Government using the new regulation-making powers conferred under clause 25.

Amendment 33,  page 27, line 13, leave out “negative procedure (see section 28” and insert “affirmative procedure (see section 29”.

This amendment would require regulations made by Scottish Ministers under subsection (1) of Clause 25 (Universal credit: person to whom, and time when, paid) to be subject to the Scottish Parliament’s affirmative procedure.

Amendment 165, in clause 26, page 27, line 22, leave out from beginning to “for” in line 23 and insert “Arrangements”.

Amendments 165, 166 and 167 make provision for the Scottish Parliament to have power to legislate on arrangements for employment support programmes.

Amendment 166, page 27, leave out lines 27 to 29 and insert—“assisting persons (including persons claiming reserved benefits) who are unemployed or at risk of long-term unemployment to select, obtain and retain employment;”

Amendments 165, 166 and 167 make provision for the Scottish Parliament to have power to legislate on arrangements for employment support programmes

Amendment 167, page 27, line 34, leave out “another person” and insert “a person other than the person making the arrangements”.

Amendments 165, 166 and 167 make provision for the Scottish Parliament to have power to legislate on arrangements for employment support programmes.

Government amendments 79, 80, 82, 193 and 83.

Amendment 168, page 30, line 30, leave out Clause 31.

Amendment 11, in clause 31, page 30, line 34, leave out “may” and insert “must following agreement with the Scottish Government”.

Government amendments 84 to 89.

Amendment 12,  page 32, line 25, leave out “C” and insert “A”.

Amendment 13,  page 32, line 31, leave out “then, instead of the type C procedure”.

Amendment 14, page 32, line 31, leave out “I” and insert “A”.

Government amendments 90 to 96.

Amendment 169, in clause 32, page 33, line 44, leave out subsection (2).

This amendment delivers a more explicit reference to the devolution of competence over gender quotas in respect of public bodies in Scotland but ensures that it is “not limited to” gender quotas, as agreed in the Smith Commission report.

Amendment 225,  page 34, line 2, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) Under the heading “Exceptions”, at end insert—

(none) Equal opportunities in relation to the Scottish functions of any Scottish public authority or cross-border public authority including appointments to the board of any Scottish public authority. The provision falling within this exception includes provision that reproduces or applies an enactment contained in the Equality Act 2006 or the Equality Act 2010, with or without modification, without affecting the enactment as it applies for the purposes of those Acts. It does not include any modification of those Acts, other than modifications of the types specified in paragraphs (a) to (d)

(a) provision that supplements or is otherwise additional to provision made by those Acts, and which may enhance but may not diminish the protection and promotion of equal opportunities afforded by the provision made by those Acts;

(b) in particular, provision imposing a requirement to take action that the Acts do not prohibit;

(c) provision that extends application of the existing powers and duties of, or grants additional powers to, the Commission for Equality and Human Rights in respect of provisions made under any part of subsection (3)

(d) provision that requires the Commission for Equality and Human Rights to attend the proceedings of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of giving evidence and to send each annual report of the Commission to the Scottish Ministers and that requires the Scottish Ministers to lay each annual report received before the Scottish Parliament.”

This amendment makes provision for the Scottish Parliament to have legislative competence in respect of the public sector equality duty, and in respect of equality of opportunity in relation to the functions of Scottish and cross-border public authorities, including appointments to public boards. It clarifies that the Scottish Parliament’s power to make modifications to the Equality Acts 2006 and 2010 is limited to making provision that enhances the protection and promotion of equal opportunities. The amendment makes provision for the powers of the Equality and Human Rights Commission to be applied in relation to any modifications to the Acts. It also enables provision to be made to increase the accountability of the Equality and Human Rights Commission to the Scottish Parliament.

Government amendments 97 and 98.

Amendment 171, in clause 32, page 34, line 4, at end insert—

“Equal opportunities in relation to an appointment as a member of a Scottish public authority.”

Government amendments 100 and 99.

Amendment 26,  page 34, line 13, at end insert “including the imposition of minimum quotas for women and other persons with protected characteristics across all levels of public and political representation in Scotland.”

This Amendment is intended to make explicit that, among the exceptions to reserved matters on equal opportunities, the power is being devolved to the Scottish Parliament to set gender quotas.

Amendment 157,  page 34, line 16, at end insert—

“(d) equal opportunity provisions in relation to candidates at an election for membership of the Scottish Parliament and a local government election in Scotland.”

This would allow the necessary competence for gender quotas in relation to the Scottish Parliament and local government to be transferred to the Scottish Parliament.

Government amendment 101.

Amendment 172,  page 34, line 18, leave out “the Equality Act 2010 and Part 1 of that Act” and insert “and the Equality Act 2010”.

Government amendment 102.

Amendment 173, in clause 32, page 34, line 25, leave out subsection (6) and insert—

‘( ) In section 2 (power to amend section1)—

(a) in subsection (7), omit “the Scottish Ministers or”,

(b) in subsection (10), before “Ministers” insert “Welsh””

Government amendment 103.

Amendment 174,  page 34, line 37, leave out subsection (9) and insert—

‘( ) In section 216 (commencement) at the beginning of subsection (3) insert “Subject to subsection (4),” and after that subsection insert—

(4) Part 1 comes into force on such day as the Scottish Ministers may by order appoint so far as it—

(a) confers a power on the Scottish Ministers

(b) relates to a public authority in respect of which such a power is exercisable.

(5) The following do not apply to an order under subsection (4)—

(a) section 207(2) (see instead section 27 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010: powers exercisable by Scottish statutory instrument), and

(b) section 210.””

Government amendment 104.

Amendment 175, page 35, line 2, leave out subsection (10).

Government amendment 105.

Amendment 15,  page 35, leave out lines 18 and 19.

Amendment 16,  page 35, leave out lines 24 and 25.

Amendment 176, page 35, leave out lines 26 to 30 and insert—

‘(nonenone) “This Schedule does not reserve the transfer of all the functions of a tribunal referred to in sub-paragraph (2) to a Scottish tribunal, so far as the functions are exercisable in relation to Scottish cases or a specified category of Scottish cases, in accordance with provision made by Her Majesty by Order in Council.”

This amendment would ensure that all functions exercisable in relation to Scottish cases or a specified category of Scottish cases should transfer to the Scottish Parliament.

Amendment 17,  page 35, leave out lines 26 to 30.

Amendment 177, page 35, leave out from beginning of line 31 to end of line 7 on page 36.

Amendment 178, page 36, line 22, at end insert—

‘( ) For the avoidance of doubt, this Schedule does not reserve—

(a) a Scottish tribunal’s practice and procedure when exercising functions that have been transferred to it by virtue of this paragraph, or

(b) the fees and expenses chargeable for, or in connection with, proceedings before a Scottish tribunal when it is exercising those functions.”

This amendment makes clear that competence over a tribunal’s practice, rules of procedure and fees in relation to transferred cases becomes devolved, as per the Smith Commission recommendation.

Amendment 179, in clause 34, page 37, line 28, leave out from “relating” to “to” in line 29.

This amendment would remove a restriction on the full devolution of speed limits in relation to emergency vehicles.

Amendment 180, in clause 36, page 41, line 15, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—

“(a) in relation to vehicles used on roads in Scotland, means the Scottish Ministers.”

Amendment 181, page 41, line 19, at end insert—

‘(18) In section 130 (application of Act to Crown)—

(a) in subsection (3) for “Secretary of State” substitute “relevant authority”, and

(b) after that subsection insert—

(3A) In subsection (3) “relevant authority”—

(a) in relation to vehicles used on roads in Scotland, means the Scottish Ministers,

(b) otherwise, means the Secretary of State.”

This amendment would amend section 130(3) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 so that Scottish Ministers are added into the provision as the relevant “national authority”.

Government amendments 106 to 128.

Amendment 182, in clause 45, page 47, leave out lines 4 to 8, and insert—

“The number of relevant gaming machines authorised (if any) in respect of premises licences under the Gambling Act 2005.

A “relevant gaming machine” is a gaming machine (within the meaning of section 235 of the Gambling Act 2005) for which the maximum charge for use is more than £10.”

This amendment replaces the reference to betting premises with a more general reference to gambling premises, giving full effect to Smith Commission recommendation 74.

Amendment 18, page 47, line 7 , leave out “for which the maximum charge for use is more than £10”.

Amendment 1, page 47, line 7, leave out “£10” and insert “£2”.

Amendment 183, page 47, leave out lines 13 to 20 and insert—

“(a) the Scottish Ministers in respect of premises in Scotland in so far as the order varies the number of gaming machines authorised (if any) for which the maximum charge for use is more than £10, or

(b) otherwise, the Secretary of State.”

This amendment replaces the reference to betting premises with a more general reference to gambling premises, giving full effect to Smith Commission recommendation 74.

Amendment 19, page 47, line 17, leave out “for which the maximum charge for use is more than £10”.

Amendment 2, page 47, line 18, leave out “£10” and insert “£2”.

Amendment 3, page 47, line 18, after “£10”, insert—

‘( ) the content and the speed of play,”

Amendment 4,  page 47, line 18, after “£10”, insert—

‘( ) the number of staff required to supervise such machines,”

Amendment 20,  page 47, line 35, leave out subsection (6).

Government amendments 137 to 139.

Amendment 184, in clause 50, page 49, leave out from line 32 to line 50 on page 50 and insert—

‘(4) The Scottish Ministers may not make regulations under section 9 unless they have consulted the Secretary of State about the proposed regulations.

(5) Subsection (1) does not prevent the Secretary of State making a support scheme in relation to Scotland under section 9, or varying or revoking regulations made by the Scottish Ministers under that section with the agreement of the Scottish Ministers.”

Government amendments 140 to 143.

Amendment 185, in clause 51, page 52, line 9, leave out from beginning to end of line 6 on page 53 and insert—

‘(4) The power of the Scottish Ministers under section 33BC does not include power to make provision in relation to the subject matter of sections 88 to 90 of the Energy Act 2008 (smart meters).

(5) The Scottish Ministers may not make an order under section 33BC unless they have consulted the Secretary of State about the proposed order.

(6) The power of the Secretary of State to make an order under section 33BC is exercisable so as to make any provision that may be made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, or vary or revoke an order made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, but only with the agreement of the Scottish Ministers.”

Government amendments 144 to 147.

Amendment 186,  page 53, line 48, leave out from beginning to end of line 40 on page 54 and insert—

‘(5) The Scottish Ministers may not make an order under section 33BD unless they have consulted the Secretary of State about the proposed order.

(6) The power of the Secretary of State to make an order under section 33BD is exercisable so as to make any provision that may be made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, or vary or revoke an order made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, but only with the agreement of the Scottish Ministers.”

Government amendments 148 to 150.

Amendment 187,  page 55, line 30, leave out from beginning to end of line 24 on page 56 and insert—

“(5) The Scottish Ministers may not make an order under section 41A unless they have consulted the Secretary of State about the proposed order.

(6) The power of the Secretary of State to make an order under section 41A is exercisable so as to make any provision that may be made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, or vary or revoke an order made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, but only with the agreement of the Scottish Ministers.”

Government amendments 151 to 153

Amendment 188,  page 57, line 17, leave out from beginning to line 9 on page 58 and insert—

“(5) The Scottish Ministers may not make an order under section 41B unless they have consulted the Secretary of State about the proposed order.

(6) The power of the Secretary of State to make an order under section 41B is exercisable so as to make any provision that may be made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, or vary or revoke an order made by the Scottish Ministers under that section, but only with the agreement of the Scottish Ministers.”

Government amendment 154.

Amendment 189, in clause 53, page 60, leave out lines 9 to 17.

This amendment removes restrictions on the consultation process with the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament in relation to renewables incentive schemes.

Amendment 190, in clause 55, page 63, line 17, at end insert—

“() the Scottish Ministers,”.

Clause 55 as currently drafted would allow Scottish Ministers to make a reference to the Competition and Markets Authority only in the most exceptional circumstances. This amendment would enable Scottish Ministers to make a reference without the involvement of the Secretary of State.

Government amendments 129 and 133 to 136.

[David Mundell]

Let me begin by dealing with the specific issue of welfare funds, on which I am accepting an amendment that the SNP tabled in Committee. The Smith commission agreement stated that the devolution of welfare foods should be the subject of further discussion between the UK and Scottish Governments. This has taken place, and I am pleased that new clause 14 and consequential amendments 79, 80, 82 and 83 devolve powers to the Scottish Parliament concerning welfare foods. They will be able to abolish or amend existing schemes, which includes the nursery milk scheme and health start scheme, or make new schemes for the provision of welfare foods.

On welfare more generally, the Government are proposing a number of changes to the welfare clauses, responding to a number of comments made by Members of this House in Committee, as well as the Scottish Parliament and other stakeholders. As a result, it will be beyond doubt that the Scotland Bill fully delivers on the Smith commission agreement and that the Scottish Parliament will have significant responsibilities for areas of welfare. I was pleased to see these changes receiving a full endorsement from Gordon Brown, from the Scottish media, and indeed from all objective observers. The Scottish Government are getting responsibility for disability and carer’s benefits that were worth £2.7 billion in Scotland last year, and they will be able to deliver new benefits in all areas of devolved responsibility if they wish. Amendments 70 and 71 to clause 19 ensure that the Scottish Parliament can, if it wishes, legislate for the payment of a carer’s benefit to a person who is under 16, is in full-time education or is gainfully employed. The Scottish Government will be able to pay anyone on a reserved benefit a top-up payment. That includes being able to top up benefits such as tax credits, child benefit and universal credit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Yvette Cooper]

Does the Secretary of State not realise that he is setting up two different systems, one for Scotland and one for England and Wales, when we know from other parts of the world that that leads to women having to travel for abortions at a vulnerable time? That issue of principle—deciding whether it is right for people to have to travel—is important. I hope that many of our Scottish colleagues will agree with us about the importance of the 1967 Act. I know that there is strong agreement from the First Minister. However, there is an issue of principle in whether we think it is right to increase the likelihood of women having to travel at a vulnerable time. Does he think it is right to do that without proper consultation with women across not just Scotland, but England—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The right hon. Lady is hoping to catch my eye. I want to hear her speech then, rather than now. Shorter interventions would be very helpful.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Members cannot just stand there waiting. I should say, in fairness to the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), that she gave way earlier. If she wishes to give way again, I will call whoever wishes to intervene, but Members should not stand there waiting on the off chance that she may do so. I should also say that I am sure the right hon. Lady wishes to face the Chair.

[Yvette Cooper]

We have been given too little time for such an important debate, so I cannot give way, but I urge Members to bear it in mind that anti-abortion campaigners want this opportunity to fragment and divide us. All of us who support the 1967 Act ought to agree that we should stand together and not allow anti-abortion campaigners to divide us, pick us off one by one, and target us differently. I urge the House to reconsider. We should consult properly, we should take the interests of women and their families into consideration, and we should vote against the new clause tonight.

Scotland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 15th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I beg to move amendment 16, page 1, line 7, leave out first “A” and insert “The”

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 37, page 1, line 7, leave out “is recognised as” and insert “shall be”.

Amendment 17, page 1, line 7, leave out “recognised as”.

Amendment 58, page 1, leave out lines 7 and 8 and insert—

‘(1A) The Scottish Parliament is a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitution.

(1B) Subsection (1) or (1A) may be repealed only if—

(a) the Scottish Parliament has consented to the proposed repeal, and

(b) a referendum has been held in Scotland on the proposed repeal and a majority of those voting at the referendum have consented to it.”

This amendment is to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can only be abolished with the consent of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people after a referendum.

Amendment 38, page 1, line 8, at end insert

“and may not be abolished without the consent of the Scottish people given effect by an Act of the Scottish Parliament”.

Amendment 18, page 1, line 12, leave out “recognised as”.

Amendment 59, page 1, leave out lines 12 and 13 and insert—

‘(1A) The Scottish Government is a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitution.

(1B) Subsection (1) or (1A) may be repealed only if—

(a) the Scottish Parliament has consented to the proposed repeal, and

(b) a referendum has been held in Scotland on the proposed repeal and a majority of those voting at the referendum have consented to it.”

This amendment is to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can only be abolished with the consent of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people after a referendum.

Clause 1 stand part.

Amendment 89, in clause 11, page 13, line 42, at end insert—

‘(2A) In paragraph 4 of Schedule 4 (protection of Scotland Act 1998 from modification), insert new sub-paragraph—

“(5A) This paragraph does not apply to amendments to Schedule 5, Part II, Head A, Section A1 insofar as they relate to:

(a) taxes and excise in Scotland,

(b) government borrowing and lending in Scotland, and

(c) control over public expenditure in Scotland.”

This amendment would enable the Scottish Parliament to amend the Scotland Act 1998 to remove the reservation on taxation, borrowing and public expenditure in Scotland, with the effect that the Scottish Parliament could then legislate in these areas to provide for full fiscal autonomy in Scotland.

New clause 2—Constitutional convention—

‘(1) The Prime Minister shall establish a Constitutional Convention within one month of the day on which this act is passed.

(2) The Chair and Members of the Constitutional Convention shall be appointed in accordance with a process to be laid before, and approved by, resolution in each House of Parliament.

(3) The Chair of the Constitutional Convention is not permitted to be a Member of Parliament or a member of a political party.

(4) Members of the Constitutional must include, but not be limited to, the following—

(a) members of the public, chosen by lot through the jury system, who shall comprise the majority of those participating in the convention;

(b) elected representatives at all levels;

(c) representatives of civil society organisations and, in an advisory role, academia.

(5) The Constitutional Convention shall review and make recommendations in relation to future governance arrangements for the United Kingdom, including but not limited to the following—

(a) the role and voting rights of Members of the House of Commons;

(b) democratic reform of the House of Lords;

(c) further sub-national devolution within England;

(d) codification of the constitution.

(6) The Constitutional Convention shall engage in widespread consultation across the nations and regions of the UK, and must provide a report to both Houses of Parliament by 31 March 2016.

(7) The Secretary of State must lay before both Houses of Parliament a formal response to each recommendation of the Constitutional Convention within four months of the publication of the final report from the Constitutional Convention.’

This New Clause provides an outline for a Constitutional Convention selected from the widest possible number of groups in society to analyse and design future governance arrangements for the United Kingdom, and to report by 31 March 2016.

New clause 3—Transfer of reserved matters—

‘(1) Schedule 5 (which defines reserved matters) to the Scotland Act 1998, has effect with the following modifications.

(2) In Part I (general reservations) omit paragraph 6 (political parties).

(3) Part II (specific reservations) is omitted.

(4) Insert Part IIA (UK pensions liability) as follows—

Part IIA

UK Pensions liability

The consent of the Treasury is required before the enactment of any provision passed by the Scottish Parliament which would affect the liabilities of the National Insurance Fund in respect of old age pensions.”

(5) In Part III (general provisions) the following provisions referring to Part II of the Schedule are omitted—

(a) paragraph 3(2);

(b) paragraph 4(2)(c).’

This Amendment would allow the Scottish Parliament to make provision for the registration and funding of political parties, but would otherwise retain the Part I reserved matters covering the constitution, foreign affairs, public service, defence and treason. It would entirely remove the remaining reservations over financial and economic matters, home affairs, trade and industry, energy, transport, social security, regulation of the professions, employment, health and medicines, media and culture and other miscellaneous matters. The consent of the Treasury would be needed for any changes in old age pensions which would affect the liabilities of the National Insurance Fund.

New clause 6—Constitution of Scotland—

‘(1) The 1998 Scotland Act shall be cited as The Written Constitution of Scotland.

(2) A standing Scottish Constitutional Convention shall be convened jointly by the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers to conduct reviews and to make recommendations to the Scottish Parliament and the Parliament of the United Kingdom.’

The New Clause renames the Scotland Act 1998 and introduces a standing Scottish Constitutional Convention.

New clause 7—Application of the Parliament Acts to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government—

‘(1) The Parliament Act 1911 is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection 2(1), after “other than a Money Bill”, insert “or a Bill amending sections 1 or 2 of the Scotland Act 2015.’

The New Clause entrenches the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government by ensuring that changing Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill once enacted would be possible only with the consent of both Houses of Parliament.

New clause 8—Scottish Parliament nomination of members of the House of Lords—

‘(1) The Scottish Parliament shall nominate members for appointment to the House of Lords, in a method to be determined wholly by the Scottish Parliament.

(2) The number of members of the House of Lords appointed in accordance with this section shall at any time be in broadly the same proportion to the total membership of the House of Lords as the population of Scotland is to the total population of the United Kingdom.’

The New Clause would require the Scottish Parliament to nominate members to sit in the House of Lords in proportion to Scotland’s share of the United Kingdom population.

New clause 9—Constitutional convention—

‘(1) Within one month of the day on which this Act is passed, a constitutional convention is to be held to consider and make recommendations on the constitution of the United Kingdom.

(2) The Secretary of State must make regulations to—

(a) appoint a day on which the convention must commence its operations,

(b) make fair and transparent rules about how the convention is to operate and how evidence is to be adduced,

(c) make further provision about the terms of reference prescribed under section 2, and

(d) specify how those who are to be part of the convention are to be chosen in accordance with subsection (8).

(3) The date appointed under subsection (2)(a) must not be later than 31 December 2016.

(4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (2), if made without a draft having been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament, is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(5) The convention shall have the following terms of reference—

(a) the devolution of legislative and fiscal competence to and within Scotland and the rest of the UK,

(b) the devolution of legislative and fiscal competence to local authorities within the United Kingdom,

(c) electoral reform,

(d) constitutional matters to be considered in further conventions, and

(e) procedures to govern the consideration and implementation of any future constitutional reforms.

(6) The convention must publish recommendations within the period of one year beginning with the day appointed under subsection (2)(a).

(7) The Secretary of State must lay responses to each of the recommendations from the convention before each House of Parliament within six months beginning with the day on which the recommendations are published.

(8) The convention must be composed of representatives of the following—

(a) all registered political parties within the United Kingdom,

(b) civic society and local authorities of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.’

The New Clause would require the appointment of a convention to review the operation of the Act resulting from the Scotland Bill in the wider context of the Union.

Amendment 1, in clause 63, page 67, line 24, leave out paragraph (a).

This amendment provides that section 1 will not come into force on the day on which the Act is passed, in order to link the commencement of Part 1 of the Act (Constitutional arrangements) with the work of the Constitutional Convention, outlined in New Clause NC2, which would be required to report by 31 March 2016.

Amendment 2, page 67, line 26, at end insert—

‘(1A) Part 1 comes into force within one month of the publication of the report of the Constitutional Convention appointed under section (Constitutional Convention).”

This amendment provides that Part 1 of the Act (Constitutional arrangements) comes into force after publication of the report of the Constitutional Convention, as outlined in New Clause NC2, which would be required to report by 31 March 2016.

[Mr Carmichael]

Amendments 16, 17 and 18 are essentially probing amendments, authored by the Law Society of Scotland. Subject to the response that we hear from Ministers and from those in other parts of the House, it is not my intention to seek to press them to a Division.

The amendments change the nature of clause 1 from one that recognises the permanence of the Scottish Parliament to one that declares it. The genesis of the clause was the Smith commission report, which required that there should be a statement in the legislation to follow it that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government were permanent institutions. The form of words in clause 1 was inserted by the draft clauses published at the end of January, which recognised that permanence. The permanence of the Scottish Parliament is to be found not in any amendment or statutory enactment, but in the will of the Scottish people. It is a permanent institution because, frankly, it is unthinkable that it would be repealed at this point. For that reason, and given the comments of the Scottish Parliament’s Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, it is right that we should revisit the issue.

At the heart of this debate is the issue and the definition of sovereignty. The context is a classic Diceyan definition of sovereignty, which says that Parliament here is sovereign. Although matters have moved on somewhat over the years and although it remains the case that Parliament cannot bind its successors, it is undoubtedly the case that since the European Communities Act 1972 we have taken a different view of parliamentary sovereignty, one in which sovereignty is shared with the European Union, as it now is, in Brussels, the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly and even the London Assembly. It was the subject of considerable debate during the constitutional convention back in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The view that was taken then, which as I recall was contained in the claim of right, was that in Scotland the Diceyan version of sovereignty—that Parliament is sovereign—has never been the case, and that sovereignty has always been vested in and remained with the people of Scotland. From that point of view, I see considerable merit in amendment 58 in the name of the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) and his colleagues in the Scottish National party, requiring that if there were ever to be a repeal of the Scotland Act 1998 it could be done only with the consent of a majority voting in a referendum. That honours and respects the view that sovereignty lies with the people in Scotland.

However, even that clause could be got around by a simple repeal, a consequence of the doctrine that Parliament cannot bind its successors. As long as we try to do these things by way of primary legislation, we will keep tying ourselves up in knots and any solution that we bring forward will lack permanence and will be unsatisfactory.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful for that explanation. The key issue we face in the next year is the prospect of an EU referendum being held on the same day as the Scottish parliamentary elections. Would he like to take the opportunity to say what he thinks about that and to rule it out? We cannot have 16 and 17-year-olds coming into the polling booth to vote in the Scottish Parliament election, possibly being ID-ed, and then being turned out as they cannot vote in the EU referendum.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We need to watch out so that we do not go outside the scope of what we are discussing. That is the danger. As much as the hon. Gentleman wants to tempt the Minister, I want him to try to stay within the scope of the Bill and to try to answer along those lines.

[John Penrose]

I shall endeavour to be as helpful as I can when I reach amendment 43, which is closely adjacent to the points made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), without, I hope, trying your patience in the process, Mr Hoyle.

Clauses 3 and 5 fulfil the Smith commission agreement devolving significant electoral powers to the Scottish Parliament while ensuring that polls for Scottish parliamentary ordinary general elections will not be held on the same day as UK parliamentary general elections, European general elections or ordinary government elections, as we just discussed. The UK Government consider the timing and combination of polls to be intrinsically linked. I think that we might have covered that point, but I want to make sure that it is clear. That is why the combination of polls involving a reserved poll with a poll at a Scottish parliamentary election or local government election in Scotland continues to be reserved, as does the combination of a poll at a Scottish parliamentary ordinary general election with a poll at an ordinary local government election in Scotland. I urge Members to withdraw their amendments for the reasons that I have just given.

Amendment 43 seeks to ensure that it would not be possible for a Scottish parliamentary general election to be held on the same day as a referendum called under reserved powers. The hon. Member for Caerphilly gets top marks for ingenuity for trying to shoehorn into the Bill before us today a measure which affects tomorrow’s business. I understand that there are strong views on the issue and I promise him that we are considering them carefully. He will know that an amendment has been tabled for the business tomorrow which is very similar to this one and will allow the issue to be debated in some depth. I therefore encourage my right hon. and hon. Friends to resist the opportunity to support the amendment, if only because it would not be fair to Members of other devolved Parliaments and Assemblies, which may have elections on the same day as the Scottish elections next year, for such a measure to be dealt with in a Scottish Bill when we have the opportunity to deal with it properly tomorrow.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joanna Cherry]

I beg to move amendment 62, page 11, line 19, leave out

“the decision whether to pass or reject it”

and insert

“the motion that the Bill be passed is debated”.

Amendments 62 to 66 to Clause 10 aim to clarify matters around references to the Supreme Court, in particular where the Scottish Parliament resolve to reconsider the Bill.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 21, page 11, line 27, at end add—

“(aa) the period between general elections specified in section 2(2)”.

Amendment 22, page 11, line 30, at end add—

“(ba) the alteration of boundaries of constituencies, regions, or any equivalent electoral area”.

Amendment 63, page 11, line 39, after “unless”, insert

“it is passed without division, or”.

Amendment 64, page 12, line 18, at end insert—

“(2A) He shall not make a reference by virtue of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) if the Parliament resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill.

(2B) He shall not make a reference by virtue of paragraph (b) of subsection (2) if—

(a) the Bill was passed without a division, or

(b) the Bill was passed on a division and the number of members voting in favour of it was at least two thirds of the total number of seats for members of the Parliament.”

This amendment establishes that a Bill passed by consensus in the Scottish Parliament (i.e. without a division) automatically meets the super-majority requirement and ensures that a Presiding Officer’s statement is not required if the super-majority requirements are not triggered.

Amendment 65, page 12, line 23, at end insert—

“(3A) Subsection (3B) applies where—

(a) a reference has been made in relation to a Bill under this section, and

(b) the reference has not been decided or otherwise disposed of.

(3B) If the Parliament resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill—

(a) the Presiding Officer shall notify the Advocate General, the Lord Advocate and the Attorney General of that fact, and

(b) the person who made the reference in relation to the Bill shall request the withdrawal of the reference.”

Amendment 66, page 12, line 27, leave out subsections (11) and (12) and insert—

“(10A) In subsection (4) after paragraph (a) insert—

“(aa) where section 32A(2)(b) applies—

(i) the Supreme Court decides that the Bill or any provision of the Bill relates to a protected subject matter, or

(ii) a reference has been made in relation to the Bill under section 32A and the Parliament subsequently resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill.”

(10B) After that subsection insert—

“(4A) Standing orders shall provide for an opportunity for the reconsideration of a Bill after its rejection if (and only if), where section 32A(2)(a) applies—

(a) the Supreme Court decides that the Bill or any provision of the Bill does not relate to a protected subject matter, or

(b) the Parliament resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill.””

Clause 10 stand part.

Amendment 67, in clause 11, page 13, line 4, at end insert—

“(1A) In paragraph 1 of Schedule 4 (protection of Scotland Act 1998 from modification), delete ‘(2)(f) the Human Rights Act 1998’”

This amendment would remove the Human Rights Act 1998 from the list of protected provisions in Schedule 4 of the Scotland Act 1998.

Amendment 68, page 13, line 10, paragraph (a)(ii), leave out “(3)” and insert “(2B)”.

Amendments 68 to 88 to Clause 11 would grant the Scottish Parliament powers to make decisions about all matters relating to the arrangements and operations of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government as agreed in the Smith Commission.

Amendment 69, page 13, line 11, paragraph (a)(iii), leave out “11” and insert “12”.

Amendment 70, page 13, line 12, paragraph (a)(iv), leave out from “section” to the end and insert “sections 13 to 27,”.

Amendment 71, page 13, line 13, paragraph (a)(v), leave out from “(v)” to the end and insert “section 28(1) to (6),”.

Amendment 72, page 13, line 14, paragraph (a)(vi), leave out from “(vi)” to the end and insert “sections 29(2)(e)”.

Amendment 73, page 13, line 15, paragraph (a)(vii), leave out “27(1) and (2)” and insert “31”.

Amendment 74, page 13, line 16, paragraph (a)(viii), leave out “28(5)” and insert “32(1) to (3),”.

Amendment 75, page 13, line 17, paragraph (a)(ix), leave out “(1)(a) and (b) and (2) and (3)”.

Amendment 76, page 13, line 18, paragraph (a)(x), leave out “39” and insert “38”.

Amendment 77, page 13, line 21, paragraph (b)(i), leave out “44(1B)(a) and (b), and (2)” and insert “44(1C), (2) and (4),”.

Amendment 78, page 13, line 22, paragraph (b)(ii), leave out “(3) to (7)” and insert “to 50”.

Amendment 79, page 13, line 23, paragraph (b)(iii), leave out “46(1) to (3)” and insert “51(1), (2) and (5) to (8)”.

Amendment 80, page 13, line 24, paragraph (b)(iv), leave out “47(3)(b) to (e)” and insert “52”.

Amendment 81, page 13, line 25, paragraph (b)(v), leave out “48(2) to (4)” and insert “59”.

Amendment 82, page 13, line 26, paragraph (b)(vi), leave out “49(2) and (4)(b) to (e)” and insert “61”.

Amendment 83, page 13, line 27, leave out paragraph (b)(vii).

Amendment 84, page 13, line 28, paragraph (c), leave out “(3)”.

Amendment 85, page 13, line 29, paragraph (d), leave out from “general,” to the end of the paragraph, and insert—

“(i) sections 81 to 85,

(ii) sections 91 to 95, and

(iii) section 97,”.

Amendment 86, page 13, line 31, paragraph (e), leave out from “supplementary,” to the end of the paragraph in line 37, and insert—

“(i) sections 112, 113 and 115, and Schedule 7 (insofar as those sections and that Schedule apply to any power in this Act of the Scottish Ministers to make subordinate legislation),

(ii) sections 118, 120 and 121,

(iii) section 124 (insofar as that section applies to any power in this Act of the Scottish Ministers to make subordinate legislation),

(iv) section 126(1) and (6) to (8), and

(v) section 127,”.

Government amendments 108 to 110.

Amendment 87, page 13, line 39, paragraph (g), leave out “6” and insert “7”.

Amendment 88, page 13, line 41, paragraph (h), leave out

“paragraphs 1 to 6 of”.

Clause stand part.

[Joanna Cherry]

I rise to speak in favour of amendments 62 and 67. Amendment 67 would introduce to clause 11 a subsection that would remove the Human Rights Act from the list of protected provisions in schedule 4 to the Scotland Act 1998.

In the debate on the Gracious Speech, the Home Secretary confirmed that a Bill will be brought forward during this Parliament to introduce a Bill of Rights and to repeal the Human Rights Act. The Scottish National party has consistently opposed repeal of the Human Rights Act. We won the election in Scotland and therefore there is no mandate from the Scottish people for repeal of the Act. None the less, the Secretary of State for Scotland has confirmed, albeit on Radio Scotland, that repeal of the Human Rights Act will apply equally in Scotland as in England. At present, the Human Rights Act is listed as a protected provision in schedule 4 to the Scotland Act, which means that the Scottish Parliament cannot modify the Human Rights Act. Amendment 67 would change that.

The UK Government have not been clear on how potential changes to the United Kingdom’s relationship with the European convention on human rights and the abolition of the Human Rights Act could impact on the place of the ECHR in Scotland’s constitutional settlement. That is important because the ECHR is entrenched in the Scotland Act. For example, section 29(2)(d) provides that a provision that is incompatible with the ECHR is outwith the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, and section 57(2) provides that a member of the Scottish Government has no power to make any subordinate legislation or to do any act in so far as that would be incompatible with the ECHR.

Neither of those sections would be changed by simple repeal of the Human Rights Act alone. It is clear, therefore, that human rights are not specifically a reserved matter; they are partially devolved. Scottish National party Members therefore argue that any repeal of the Human Rights Act without first consulting the Scottish Parliament would violate the Sewel convention, whereby the Westminster Government will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

Matters are further complicated by the fact that the Smith commission and the draft clauses proposed putting the Sewel convention on a legislative footing. There is therefore the prospect of a very real clash between the United Kingdom Government commitment to revise and reduce the role of the ECHR in United Kingdom law and their commitment to the Scottish electorate to implement the vow. There is a real possibility of a clash between the Scottish and Westminster Parliaments.

It is worth pausing to look at the realities of human rights in the United Kingdom and why they matter. As I said in my maiden speech, the United Kingdom in fact loses very few of the cases brought against it in Strasbourg. The United Kingdom once had a proud tradition of leading in Europe on human rights. It was elected to membership of the United Nations Human Rights Council in 2014 on a prospectus claiming that it was

“a passionate, committed and effective defender of human rights”.

Repealing the Human Rights Act would not really live up to that claim and would send out all the wrong signals. The right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) said in 2014 that the proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act represented a

“failure of ambition…on the global promotion of human rights”.

Human rights matter to ordinary people in this country. Those who have benefited from the Human Rights Act include victims of domestic violence, who have been able to get better protection, and victims of rape, who have used the Act to ensure that the police properly investigate offences. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex people have used human rights to overcome discrimination in this country. The families of military personnel killed on active service because the Ministry of Defence supplied them with outdated equipment have also benefited under the Human Rights Act. These rights are very real for ordinary United Kingdom citizens.

In Scotland, we have a national action plan for human rights, which has been co-produced in partnership with wider civil society. We have a United Nations- accredited Scottish Human Rights Commission, which is internationally acknowledged as one of the world’s best. As I said in my maiden speech, our commitment to human rights in Scotland extends not just to the ECHR, but beyond that to social and economic rights. Through our work on social justice and challenges such as that on fair work, we are intent on ensuring that people in Scotland can enjoy their economic, social and cultural human rights. Scotland is also a world leader in its work to give full effect to the rights of children. We are very proud of that record in Scotland and we wish to protect it—hence amendment 67.

As I have said, the amendment would have the effect of removing the Human Rights Act from the list of enactments that cannot be modified by the Scottish Parliament. If the Scottish Parliament was able to modify the Human Rights Act, that would allow the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament to establish a human rights regime in Scotland regardless of whether the Act was repealed by the UK Parliament.

I hasten to add that, as our First Minister has said, the SNP is committed to opposing the repeal of the Human Rights Act for the whole of the UK, not just for Scotland. However, in the unfortunate event that it is repealed for the whole of the UK, amendment 67 would enable us to do something about it, at least in Scotland. That position has the overwhelming support of the Scottish electorate, as evidenced by the 56 out of 59 MPs sitting beside and behind me.

Scotland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Hoyle)]

Order. Before I bring the next speaker in, I am going to raise the time limit to nine minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Hoyle)]

With two speakers left, I am increasing the time limit to 12 minutes each.

Scotland’s Place in the UK

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Relevant documents: second report from the Scottish Affairs Committee, The Referendum on Separation for Scotland-The Need for Truth, HC 828]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

There will be an opening speech of 10 minutes. I warn everybody that there will be a five-minute limit on speeches thereafter, apart from the wind-ups.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

As I understand the position of the Labour party in Scotland, it favours the full devolution of income tax powers to the Scottish Parliament. Yesterday, we heard a speech from the 1970s from the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), in the Welsh Grand Committee, in which he said that fiscal devolution was tantamount to destroying the fabric of the British state. Will the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) explain to the House and the people of Scotland what exactly is Labour’s position on fiscal devolution?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

It might help Mr Edwards to know that he was on the list to speak, and I do not want to keep banging people down the list because they intervene. I do not want to stop debate—I do not mind interventions—but please ensure they are brief and not continual.

[Mr Bain]

I want to keep the focus on positivity in this debate, and I would simply point out to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) that the one party that was inconsistent in its approach to tax powers being devolved in the Scotland Act 2012 was the party he sits alongside on those Benches.

As a result of the Edinburgh agreement, Scotland faces a choice between two futures in the 18 September referendum: an optimistic path that builds on the strength of the devolution settlement and our common institutions, such as the Bank of England, to make our economy more productive and where ordinary people share more in the benefits of growth; and a pessimistic path implying that erecting borders is more important than bringing down barriers in terms of inequality and lack of opportunity across these islands.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hood]

Well, of course. Wherever we see poverty, we have empathy with those who are suffering it. As we have heard said many times, poverty is just as important to us if it is by the River Thames or the River Clyde. That has always been the case. [Interruption.] I hear what is being muttered behind me and I will try not to be put off—I am becoming a bit used to it.

Thirty years ago, on 5 March, I was proud to be involved in the miner’s strike, fighting for my community, for my campaign and for my values and mining community values. We were fighting against a lying Westminster Government then, and I am fighting against a lying Government now in the Scottish Parliament. In 30 years’ time, when somebody asks what I was doing in 2014 and which side I was on, my grandchildren will be able to say, “He was on the side of Scotland, and he opposed devolution and—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Time is up, unfortunately, much as I wanted to hear more. I call Rory Stewart.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can you confirm that next Tuesday the SNP is in control of Opposition business in this House and that it has not tabled a motion to discuss independence for Scotland?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. That matter is on the record and certainly does not need my confirmation.

[Pete Wishart]

What a chance; what an opportunity: on 18 September this year we can make the choice to become a self-governing nation once again—to walk tall in the world with national self-respect and dignity like all other normal independent nations do, being responsible for ourselves and blaming no one else for our setbacks. The most exciting thing for me is that our independence will release and ignite a tsunami of energy, creativity and imagination as we get down to the business of building and creating our new independent nation—a new nation according to our Scottish priorities, built on our sense of community, always securing the Government we vote for, pursuing the agenda we want.

We will run an independent Scotland better than the Westminster Tories because of one key and very important fact: we care more about Scotland than the Westminster Tories do—of course we do, and that is why we will run it better. Never again will we have a Tory Government without our democratic consent. We want no more picking on our vulnerable; no more obscenities such as the bedroom tax; no more of Labour’s illegal wars and no more Tory or Labour weapons of mass destruction defiling our beautiful country—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Can I have a bit of calm? In fairness, it has been a good-hearted debate so far, and I know that no one wants to spoil the harmony of the House.

[Pete Wishart]

We will ease pretty seamlessly into a new independent status. The day after we secure a new nation, it will be pretty much like the day before, but something remarkable will have happened. All of a sudden, the country will be ours to shape and to determine. If things do not work out, we can change them. We can change them because we have the power of independence. For the first time in 300 years, our nation will belong to us, and nothing could be more exciting and transformative.

It is all down to this choice. If we vote no, we are accepting that this is as good as it gets. This is what we have to settle for. It signals a contentment with Westminster rule and Westminster politicians’ ability to deliver for Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I have had enough of that “You cannae do that stuff”, so I thank the hon. Gentleman. We have a decision to take. It is a choice between negativity and positivity—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I want to hear the hon. Gentleman. It is not fair that you are enjoying yourselves. I want to hear the speech.

[Pete Wishart]

We have listened to their speeches with as much respect as possible, but we are shouted down. It seems impossible for Members to listen to the other side of the debate. I do not know why this place thinks that that is attractive. It is a choice between negativity and positivity. No European country has done what we are about to do. As an exercise in democracy, this is huge. This is Scotland’s great choice, because it is a choice between two very different and distinct futures. We can decide that this is as good as it gets, or we can decide to do something much better—to take control of ourselves and to put the nation in the hands of the Scottish people. If we get this chance, this once-in-a-generation chance, we will vote for the positive, because positive beats negative. What a prize there will be when we vote yes in overwhelming numbers. When we go to the polls in September, we will vote ‘yes’. What a prize there will be—a country of our own.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

May I point out that the influence of Scotland is enormous? There are three Stewarts on the Government Benches today and there is a Douglas behind me. Scotland has huge influence in the United Kingdom and should remain in the United Kingdom.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I think there may be a question there.

[Iain Stewart]

My fellow clansman puts the point eloquently. Scotland punches above her weight in the United Kingdom. England punches above her weight by being part of the United Kingdom. Be it in international affairs, defence or economic clout, we are stronger together.

Devolution is a dynamic process and I think that was always the intention when the Scotland Act 1998 was passed. In 2012 we passed a further Scotland Act, which contains a substantial transfer of powers, principally fiscal powers, from this place to Holyrood. That transfer has huge implications, particularly for businesses in Scotland as they adjust to the new fiscal arrangements. I support that, as it makes Holyrood responsible for more of the money it spends. It finds as much of a welcome in my constituency in England as I know it does in Scotland. Surely the sensible thing to do is let that major change happen and bed down before we see whether there are further practical changes that can be introduced so that we have the optimal arrangement between Scotland, England and the rest of the United Kingdom, rather than gambling on the one-way ticket to uncertainty that a yes vote on 18 September would represent.

Let me conclude by returning to my principal point. Whatever the economic, strategic or practical arguments about Scotland’s remaining part of the United Kingdom, for me the principal point is emotional. This is my country. I will not rest until we see a no vote on 18 September. I do not want to swap my country for dual citizenship or whatever other arrangements come about. I am British, I want to stay British and I will fight with every fibre of my body to keep us British.

Piper Alpha Disaster

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Unfortunately, to get everyone in, we will have to have a five-minute limit.

Constitutional Law

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr McCann]

Does my hon. Friend share my concerns about the head of the Scottish civil service? It has been accused in the past by many people of being native and refusing to speak truth to power. Is it not a concern that, when it comes to the referendum, it will not have the courage to speak up against the First Minister who controls all?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We are in danger. We are debating the section 30 order, rather than the referendum. A lot of Members want to speak, so I do not want to tempt Members on to another subject.

[Ian Murray]

I will take your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend has his remarks on the record. That issue will be a concern to many Members of this House and to the people of Scotland.

I was going through issues on which I have concerns about the section 30 order, and what the SNP Government might do with it. I was talking about the First Minister taking credit for falling unemployment, but blaming everyone else when it goes up. We have had the arc of prosperity with Ireland and Iceland, until they went bust; then it was Norway, and now it is back to Iceland again. We have been told that Scots should not have taken part in Team GB, but the First Minister has taken credit for the gold medals—indeed, some SNP Members in this House play in the UK parliamentary football team. The issues are there for people to see.

We have seen the SNP Government espouse a nuclear-free Clyde, while changing their 60-year opposition to NATO. They want a nuclear-free Scotland, but it is okay for a US submarine to sail into Faslane and launch a nuclear weapon from Scottish shores. That is a ludicrous position which is yet another fudge on the Scottish people. They are changing their own rules to suit themselves, and that is why they might change the rules of the section 30 order to suit the referendum. Mr Deputy Speaker, I sense that I may be ruled out of order shortly, so I will say merely that the list is endless, and move on.

To emphasise what the Scottish Affairs Committee has said, the Scottish Government cannot be both player and referee with regard to section 30. The Electoral Commission has a vital role as an independent overseer of the process that includes critical aspects of funding and, most importantly, the wording of the question. The commission sent an updated briefing to hon. Members, and the first thing it says about the section 30 order is that the commission will have responsibility at the referendum for assessing the intelligibility of the proposed question. That is a critical part of its involvement, and this is where my discomfort lies.

The Minister deserves credit, along with the Secretary of State, but he was questioned in the House more than a dozen times during the debate on the Edinburgh agreement about what mechanics would be used if the Scottish Government ignored the commission’s recommendations, and all he could say was that he was confident that the Scottish Government would do the right thing and that the Scottish people would judge their actions. The SNP’s track record on straight answers about Scotland’s future shows that it has form in this area, and it would be wrong not to put on record that that is a real concern. The commission has been involved in every election in recent history. Its involvement in the AV referendum resulted in the question being changed on several occasions until it and the Government were satisfied that it was fair. No Government have ever overruled the commission, and the First Minister should not be the first to do so. This decision is the most important that Scotland has faced for 300 years, and that makes the role of the commission integral to the entire referendum process.

The commission’s role is also integral to campaign funding. The order does not give any details about funding, so it will be dictated by the memorandum of agreement between both Governments signed as part of the Edinburgh agreement. The commission will make recommendations after a consultation, but the SNP has already indicated that it would overrule the commission on several points, including in respect of much lower limits for businesses and unions to campaign, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party, indicated. Those limits are much lower than those recommended for the AV and Welsh referendums in respect of the umbrella campaigning groups and, as he also said—this point stuck in my head—even lower than for local government elections. Those of us who have helped run those elections know how low those limits are for getting information out to electors and voters, who deserve to have the information in front of them so that they can make an informed decision. The people of Scotland deserve as much information as possible in order for them to decide whether Scotland is better together or separate from the rest of the UK.

Then, there is the question itself. The SNP has been challenged time and time again to say whether it would abide by the commission’s recommendations on the question, but it has refused to commit to answering. The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), the leader of the SNP in the House, was questioned four times during his contribution, and all he could say was that the Scottish Parliament would have regard to the recommendations. Any SNP Member could intervene now and say, “Yes, it’s a matter for the Scottish Parliament, but the SNP and the Yes Scotland campaign will abide by the recommendations, whatever they are, of the commission.” The fact that they have not done that sends out a very strong message that our concerns about the question, with regards to the section 30 order, are not just valid but very real.

It is critical that the commission’s recommendations be respected, otherwise the Scottish people will not get the fair and transparent referendum that they ought to have. The section 30 order passes the power to the Scottish Parliament, and I am proud that the party with a track record of devolution will be wholeheartedly supporting it. We will continue to scrutinise the process both in this place and in Holyrood to ensure that the decision is decisive, legal and fair.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I remind Members that we are going to finish the Back-Bench speeches at 6.30 pm, which allows each Member about 10 or 11 minutes. If some Members creep over that, however, someone will drop off the edge, and that would not be fair.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim McGovern]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I did not refer to any Member.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

That is not a point of order. Obviously, I am sure that hon. Members are desperate to get on to the debate on the section 30 order instead of picking each other off; I am sure that that is what we all want to hear.

[Pete Wishart]

Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. If he wants to have another go, I am prepared to give way to him, but I had no idea what he was suggesting then.

[Pete Wishart]

Yes, I was out of the House—we have been here for five hours, and Members come and go outside the House. I do not understand what the hon. Gentleman’s point is.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. It does not really matter whether somebody is in, out or indifferent. I am not really concerned about that. I am concerned about this debate, and we all want to hear what Pete Wishart wants to contribute.

[Pete Wishart]

Perhaps at last we can get on to the substance of this debate. I was so looking forward to debating this measure. Who would have thought that we would be here today confirming Scotland’s opportunity to determine its own future? We have the possibility and prospect of Scotland becoming a self-governing nation once again, joining the community of nations and making its own peaceful contribution to world affairs. We have the chance to become a country of our own, to make decisions for ourselves and to stand tall, with dignity, self-respect and pride, in the world. This is a fantastic moment, and I am pleased that we are here today debating the possibility, through this order, of Scotland achieving that very fine ambition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

Absolutely, and is it not fantastic and fascinating that we have been able to achieve that? But let us imagine what more we can achieve. Let us imagine Scotland not getting involved in things such as illegal wars, not hosting weapons of mass destruction such as Trident but making a peaceful contribution to world affairs, and not doing what we have seen in the past 10 years. That is a Scotland I aspire to. That is what I think the Scottish people will choose once they have the opportunity to make this decision, and that is what is so exciting and so transformative about this whole debate—we have the possibility and prospect that our nation can once again become independent and make its own role in the world. There is nothing finer than that as an ambition, and I look forward to taking that debate forward.

Many people fought for that right. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) talked about some of the giants of the Scottish National party, who stood in this Chamber, exposed as we are continually and consistently to the barrage of overwhelming Unionist hostility—shouted down before we even get the first syllable out—but they still stood here and put the case for Scotland’s right to choose. I joined this party 20 years ago, in 1993, and Labour used to joke about the slogan, “Free by ’93”—it was quite a good joke. Now it is 63% and 2013—that is the difference. My hon. Friend was spot on: that has been achieved by the hard work of the Scottish National party Members of Parliament who inhabit these Benches and who have taken forward the case in the face of overwhelming hostility to and contempt for the idea of Scottish independence. They plugged away, they fought, they put the case and now they will be rewarded with a real opportunity for the Scottish people to make the decision on their own.

I want to pay tribute not just to the giants of our movement who have fought so hard to achieve this result but to the ordinary activists—the people who turn up on cold, frozen Saturday mornings to hand out leaflets and encourage people to put the best interests of their country first. They do that week in, week out. They include people like my constituent John Cullens, who died just last year, still trying to serve his nation. He fought alongside me to try to secure electoral victory in Perth and North Perthshire and was so excited about the prospect of a referendum for Scotland that he was always the first there and always the last to leave. As well as the giants of the party to whom my hon. Friend referred, let us remember the hard-working activists who have worked day in, day out to try to secure this result for our nation.

I want to congratulate both Governments and to pay tribute to the Minister, too, who worked exceptionally hard to deliver the Edinburgh agreement. I thought that the Secretary of State’s speech was the best today by far—it went way above any of the dreary speeches we heard from those on the Labour Benches, with their incessant negativity. It was good to hear from the Secretary of State. I also want to pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy). He made a thoughtful and non-partisan speech and was prepared to recognise some of the things in the Edinburgh agreement, including how we were prepared to make progress. That is what the Edinburgh agreement was all about: two Governments working together. Even though there is a division between our strongly felt beliefs, we can still sit down together and come together for the common purpose of ensuring that the people of Scotland get the referendum to which they are entitled and that they deserve. Why can we not continue in the spirit engendered by the Edinburgh agreement? Why can we not start to debate the possibility of both options?

I paid tribute to the Secretary of State, but it was disappointing to hear his remarks over the weekend, when he said that he was not prepared even to consider some of the technical details of a yes vote in the referendum. Surely we owe it to the Scottish people to try to do some sort of preparatory work in case there is a yes vote—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman a little. I am sure that he wants to concentrate on the section 30 order rather than trying to drag the Ministers into a debate on the outcome of the referendum. We are not going to do that.

[Pete Wishart]

That is the point, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think we should consolidate the good will that led to the Edinburgh agreement. It is important that we start to build on that. Let us see what we can do to try to ensure that that spirit of co-operation between the two Governments continues throughout the referendum process so that we continue to serve the best interests of both Governments. Let us try to make the debate as respectful as possible.

Some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) were unfortunate. He talked about bringing respect into the debate, so let us do that. Let us stop referring to people as foreigners. Let us stop talking about border patrols. That brings no credit to our debate, so, please, if we can, let us leave that to the past. Instead, let us refer to people as friends and neighbours. That is what we should do throughout the debate. No longer foreigners, the people who live in the rest of the United Kingdom will always be friends and neighbours to me. Let us make sure that we continue to refer to them in that way. That is what the English people want, too. An Ipsos MORI poll showed that 64% of English people believe that there will still be a common bond with Scotland following a decisive vote in the Scottish referendum. That is great: it demonstrates that the ties across these islands will endure and strengthen following Scotland’s independence.

There are deeply held views and opinions, but let us make sure that the debate we are about to have is as respectful as possible. People are friends and neighbours in the House, and we are friends and neighbours across the country; let us continue to refer to each other as that. Let us not have people described as foreigners, and let us please not go anywhere near border patrols or border posts. It does no credit to the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

No, I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman.

I do not think that MSPs can ever get enough of the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). Her speeches should be circulated, to make sure that her considered views are seen by other Members. Today, however, is the last day on which there is a formal role in the independence referendum for Members of the House of Commons, which is right and proper. Of course it is a matter for the Scottish people through their directly elected representatives in the Scottish Parliament. This is what the Scottish national party was elected to deliver, and it would be disingenuous if we did not do so.

It is great that that is now a matter for the Scottish Parliament. Select Committees are still looking at the issue, but they are handicapped by the fact that they all approach it from a Unionist persuasion, so I do not know how useful they are. They all take a strident, antagonistic attitude towards Scottish independence, but some of them are more valuable than others. May I say ever so gently to the Members who serve on them that Select Committees that cannot bring themselves to say the word “independence” will probably be treated with less respect than others? Yes, we are interested in their views, which are noted, but for goodness’ sake let us try to make sure that we talk about independence. There are no separate countries in the world. If Scotland secures its independence, are these people trying to tell me that we will be the first separate country in the world? What a ridiculous proposition. The proposition to my Labour friends is independence: that is what ordinary countries try to secure and achieve, and that is what we will achieve in the autumn of 2014.

Today marks the end of the formal role of this place in the whole debate about Scotland’s referendum. We will continue to be interested in hon. Members’ views, and I hope that they remain engaged with the issue and offer their opinion to Scottish parliamentarians, but they should note that today is the last day that this place will have a formal role in the matter. We now move on to the substance of the debate. The process ends with the passing of the order. The people of Scotland will therefore face two propositions: they can have an independent Scotland that is prosperous and successful, which reflects Scottish values of fairness and opportunity, and promotes equality and social cohesion; a Scotland with a new place in the world; an independent nation participating fully in the community of nations. Or there could be a no vote: more Tory austerity; government that we no longer vote for; a UK—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying again, although I know that he did not want to do so. I also know that he did not want to abuse the amount of time that he has been given, and he will recognise that he has taken far more time than he ought. There are three more Members who wish to speak, and as he has friends in all parts of the House, he will not want to deny them the opportunity to speak.

[Pete Wishart]

We have had a six-hour debate and one side in the debate has had maybe half an hour of that, so with due respect, Mr Deputy Speaker, we have—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I know the hon. Gentleman is not questioning my ruling. I have come into the Chair. I said to everybody that I wanted to try to share out the time evenly and I did not want anybody to take advantage of that. I know the hon. Gentleman would never dream of doing that. All I am saying is that I am sure he is coming towards the end. He is not going to get us into a debate on the referendum. I am sure he is about to wind up.

[Pete Wishart]

It is good that we get more than 10 minutes today to put the case for the independence side of the debate, but yes, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am winding up. Thank you very much for that.

We pass the order today, a section 30 order, based on the Edinburgh agreement. Based on two Governments working together, we now go into the debate side of things. This is what I and my hon. Friends have been waiting for all our political lives. We relish a fight. We know what Scotland will decide in 2014. It will vote yes to independence and yes to full nationhood.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Three more speakers. Ten minutes each. I call Mr Michael McCann.

Scotland and the Union

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Relevant document: Sixth Report from the Scottish Affairs Committee, Session 2010-12, The Referendum on Separation for Scotland: Unanswered Questions, HC 1806.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I inform the House that I have selected amendment (a) in the name of Angus Robertson.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes an important key point about the United Kingdom and its identity. On the numerous visits that I made to Iraq and Afghanistan, our armed forces did not ask one another whether they came from Cardiff, Belfast, Edinburgh or London. They fought for a country and a people that they love, united not just by instruments of parliamentary procedure, but by a country, intermarried and interlinked through many generations. We are a people united not by parliamentary instrument or law, but by tradition and convention, and much more by our human activities.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. A lot of Members wish to speak. We need shorter interventions. I remind Members that those who intervene who were on the speaking list will be dropped down if they continue to intervene.

[Mrs Laing]

My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) makes an extremely important point, which is at the very centre of this debate. He mentions Afghanistan and Iraq, where he has seen recently and personally the contribution made by brave servicemen and women from every part of this United Kingdom and our allies in other parts of the world—from every part of the United Kingdom, and they do not ask each other, “Which is your country?”

It is our country for which we fight, not only in Afghanistan and Iraq, but going back in our history, through the second world war, through the first world war, which in two years’ time, just at the time of the referendum, we will remember. That war started 100 years before the referendum is due to take place. Brave Scots joined brave Englishmen, Welshmen, Irishmen—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

The hon. Gentleman is totally wrong. This is not about an argument or a debate about the right of people living in Scotland to determine their future. We all agree that people in Scotland have the right to determine their future. I have just said that and I have said it many times in the House and in other places. Everyone accepts that. Scotland is a nation. Scotland is independent. Scotland holds Scotland’s future in its own hands.

This debate is not about nationalism or independence; it is about separation. That is the word that should be used in debates in this Parliament, in the Scottish Parliament and in every forum across the country and further afield in the debate that will rage between now and the referendum in two years’ time. This is about separation, not pride in our country or whether Scotland can survive on her own. Of course Scotland can survive on her own; she is a strong and capable country full of brilliant and talented people. This debate is about drawing artificial lines that we do not need. As the motion states—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I point out gently to the hon. Lady that she has now been speaking for 17 minutes. She must be getting close to the end of her speech, because I know that she is desperate to hear the other arguments.

[Mrs Laing]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am afraid that I have taken many interventions, this being a debate, but I will conclude shortly.

I will leave it to others to talk about why separation would be bad for industry, financial institutions, the currency, the armed forces, family and culture. I will turn to the motion and the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson).

I would be minded to accept the amendment were it not for the first few words, which propose leaving out the last three lines of the motion, which state that this House

“notes that a referendum on separating Scotland from the rest of the UK will be held before the end of 2014; and believes that Scotland is better off as part of the UK and the rest of the UK is better off together with Scotland.”

I believe that the vast majority of Members will support our motion today. The amendment would leave out those lines and add

“recognises that special relationships also endure with Australia, Canada, India, New Zealand, Pakistan, South Africa and other members of the Commonwealth as well as the Republic of Ireland and the United States; and believes that this will also be the case with Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom after the 2014 independence referendum.”

I entirely agree, because after the referendum nothing will change. The people of Scotland are sensible, forward-looking people and they will vote to stay better together within the United Kingdom.

Most states in the landmass of Europe and other parts of the world have to draw boundaries somewhere, but we do not have to do so because we have a natural boundary: our shores. This is but a small island, full of people in every part whose individual lives, past, present and future, are bound up with each other. Each part has its own identity, but this House will agree this afternoon that we are stronger and better to go forward together as one United Kingdom.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I am introducing a 10-minute time limit on speeches.

Scotland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this we may take Lords amendments 7, 8, 10 and 11.

[David Mundell]

Along with the redoubtable Wendy Alexander, Annabel Goldie, Lord Browne of Ladyton, Lord Stephen and my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), I took part in the very first meeting that led to the establishment of the Calman commission. I am pleased and proud today to be part of what I hope will be the successful conclusion of the commission’s work. The return of the Scotland Bill to this House comes after the other place has given the Bill a great deal of detailed scrutiny and consideration for many months. Indeed, in handling the Bill in the Lords, Lord Wallace of Tankerness was compared to Kate Adie. That comparison is not correct: he was more like General Montgomery, because he was at the forefront of the action rather than a mere commentator.

Since the Bill was last in this House, there have been two very significant developments. The Scottish Government have changed their position from one of opposition to one of support for the Bill, including many of the amendments we will consider today. On 21 March, the Secretary of State confirmed in a written ministerial statement the terms on which agreement had been reached with the Scottish Government on the Bill, and on 18 April the Scottish Parliament passed the legislative consent motion for the Bill unanimously.

When the Bill was last in this House, it appeared that the Scottish National party would never join the consensus that has been shared throughout both the Calman commission process and the parliamentary process on the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Bain]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I might be able to help. I know that Mr Bain will come straight back to the amendments and that we will not drift any further.

[Mr Bain]

I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman wishes to make that intervention again when we discuss the implementation of tax powers, Mr Deputy Speaker, you might view it in order for me to address it then.

On the specific amendments, we support the provisions that make clearer the circumstances and criteria for Scottish Ministers to make orders in relation to the conduct of Scottish parliamentary elections. Those powers will be largely devolved to the Scottish Parliament under clause 3. We also agree with amendments 7 and 8, which resolve any remaining drafting ambiguities in relation to the change in the legal name of the Scottish Executive to “the Scottish Government” in clause 15. We also have no difficulty with amendments 10 and 11, which amend clause 22 to alter the Crown Estate commissioner’s name to

“Crown Estate Commissioner with special responsibility for Scotland”

to denote the special status that one of the Crown Estate commissioners will have, should the Bill become law.

In short, then, the Opposition support the amendments.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I call Mr Bob Stewart.

[Bob Stewart]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am surprised to be called so early. [Laughter.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. If the hon. Gentleman wishes me to call someone else, I can do, but I am sure he is happy to continue.

[Bob Stewart]

Forgive me, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was in total shock. I fell over.

I speak as someone who sounds like a Sassenach, but my Scottish father joined the Royal Air Force and was thereafter posted all over the world. Many members of my family still live in Scotland. My Aunt Eileen lives in Largs and my cousin teaches Gaelic in the Outer Hebrides. I say that to demonstrate that what happens in Scotland matters to a great number of us in the House. Many of my colleagues, such as my hon. and very good Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), have Scottish ancestry going back—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I know, Mr Stewart, that you will come to the amendments immediately, rather than touring Scotland. It is interesting to hear where your relatives live, and on another day I would welcome that information, but today I want to hear your views on the amendments.

[Bob Stewart]

All the amendments are very acceptable to me and to the other Stewarts in the House.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

I am sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you will agree that it is relevant to say that the amendment matters not only to people living in Scotland but to people in the whole of the United Kingdom, because our country operates as one. I am sure that the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), who was educated at the excellent Chigwell school in Epping Forest, will be warmly welcomed by the Epping Forest Scottish Society, which shares his views on this matter.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

The southern Scottish seat of Epping Forest has been mentioned, but it is not relevant to this group of amendments. Let us now get back to the amendments.

[Bob Stewart]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The amendments will certainly be welcomed by the Stewart Society, which I shall be speaking to in two weeks’ time.

It is absolutely right that Members of the Scottish Parliament should have responsibility for raising more money, and the amendments will help them to do that. I am also pleased that MSPs will be more accountable to the Scottish people. I fully support, as do most people in this House, the fact that the Scottish Parliament will have responsibility for health, education, transport and the police. I am very pleased with the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hon. Members]

Ooh!

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is immediately going to withdraw that remark.

[Bob Stewart]

I am not sure that I will—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Yes, I certainly will withdraw it!

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am being very generous to the hon. Gentleman, and I am giving him that chance.

[Bob Stewart]

With crawlingness, I withdraw my remark. I shall sit down at this point.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

There are some benefits from doing so.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and it is a pity that we did not get to hear the rest of his speech. SNP Members were particularly looking forward to the tour de force that his tour around Scotland would have provided. Perhaps we will have the opportunity to hear it another day.

We in the Scottish National party welcome the Lords amendments. Anything that gives more power to the Scottish Parliament will be welcome to us. At this, the last moment of the last day of the last stage of the Scotland Bill, I just want to say: what a process we have had! There are many things we could say about the Bill, but we could never describe it as being particularly exciting. It has never had much press attention in the course of the past few months. We could describe it as unambitious, uneventful or lacking the powers to grow the economy, but the main thing about the Bill is that it is so “minority Government”. It is from another day, another era—it is from the last gasp of a Unionist majority in the Scottish Parliament. It is from a day that has passed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I have just about finished my speech, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. I have had enough of Labour Members’ interventions, as they all tend to be on the same theme, but I thank him for his interest.

We will support the Lords amendments. It is in Scotland’s interests that the powers should be transferred, and we will continue to support the rest of the amendments.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Minister, do you wish to speak—[Interruption.] I am sorry; I call Anne McGuire.

[Mrs McGuire]

I appreciate I am a blushing violet sitting here and you obviously did not quite see me, Mr Deputy Speaker. You are one of the few men who could say that they did not see me—even on this matter, but never mind!

I want to deal with the comments made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on this group of miscellaneous amendments. I think his comments are indicative of the fact that it does not matter how much devolution is given to Scotland or is agreed with the people of Scotland, it is never enough for a party that has only one ambition in this life, which is to separate Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Such a party will continue to throw around the sort of parliamentary insults that the hon. Gentleman managed to put into his short contribution—such as “unambitious”. Frankly, it is not unambitious to provide the greatest transfer of powers to the Scottish people, and to give not just fiscal autonomy, which is a camouflage for independence, but fiscal responsibility to the Scottish Parliament.

I can see that you are getting agitated, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I may not be addressing the amendments, so let me deal with amendment 7, which is about health professionals. I have some concern about it. Although there is significant devolution of power, there is still cross-border traffic when it comes to health professionals. It was rational to say that this should have been a reserved power. However, it was yesterday’s statement by the First Minister that convinced me that this was probably the right way to go. We are now going to have not only the same Queen, the same currency and the same NATO, but, I hope, the same level of regulatory provision for health professionals, too.

I welcome the amendment, but I ask the Minister to convince me that there will be enough communication and consideration between the UK Government and the Scottish Government to ensure that we keep in sync health professional regulation between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, so that people do not feel that they will get a different level of professionalism from the people they need to trust for their medical care according to whether they live north or south of the border.

[Ian Murray]

My right hon. Friend is creating an important narrative for the link between the national health services in Scotland and in the rest of the United Kingdom. Does she agree that that probably explains how the Scottish National party ended up voting on the Health and Social Care Bill—because of the interlinked nature of the NHS between Scotland and the rest of the UK?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The amendment refers only to leaving something out, which is all we are effectively debating. I have allowed some latitude, but I have to watch that we do not stray too far away from the amendment. I understand that the provisions affect Scotland and that hon. Members want to open up the debate, but we must try to stick to the amendments.

[Mrs McGuire]

I take your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker.

If the amendment is accepted—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Yesterday afternoon, my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) asked the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport:

“Why was the special adviser the nominated person in the Department? If this was so important, as the Secretary of State is saying, why was his special adviser the nominated person?”

The Secretary of State replied:

“His role was agreed by the permanent secretary”.—[Official Report, 25 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 963.]

This morning, at the Public Accounts Committee, the permanent secretary was asked on 10 occasions whether he had actually approved that decision, as the Secretary of State suggested to the House yesterday, and he point blank refused to say. The reason this is a point of order is that if we were to apply for a Standing Order No. 24 debate on this very serious issue of whether the Secretary of State might have inadvertently or advertently misled the House, we would have to have the first debate on Monday and the second on Tuesday. Can you confirm, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the House would not be able to prorogue on Tuesday in that eventuality?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

First, I cannot judge something that has not happened. We do not know whether what the hon. Member mentions will be received on Monday. The decision will obviously be taken when such a request has been received; only then could it be decided upon. It would be wrong for me to rule on something hypothetical.

[Mrs McGuire]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to apologise to the House. As I was speaking, I was looking at amendment 7 from the Lords rather than our amendment 7. I hope that my contribution will be taken in the context of the right amendment.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am sure that everything is possible.

[David Mundell]

I shall make a few points on the issues pertaining to this group of amendments. I can assure the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) that we on the Government Benches always listen to her wise counsel. I will deal with the specific points she raised, which are important—regardless of when or where they are raised.

As the matter was raised by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), let me be clear about the position on joint commencement. The Scottish Government sought a specific provision for joint commencement in this Bill. The request was refused, as it was unworkable—like so many proposals advanced either by the SNP in London or the Scottish Government. Instead, we focused on delivering this Bill. At last, that objective is shared by the Scottish Government.

Of course we want to achieve circumstances in which joint commencement can take place. I shall quote from a letter sent by the Secretary of State on 20 March to Bruce Crawford and John Swinney:

“Consistent with the principle of consent, our two governments should reach agreement on implementation issues, including adjustments to the block grant, to take account of the Scottish Parliament’s new fiscal powers.”

That is the Government’s position.

Let me respond to a point made by hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). He seemed to suggest that evidence had been produced to support the Scottish Government’s and indeed the Scottish National party’s suggestion that corporation tax should be devolved. Again, I am sure that he would not wish to mislead the House into thinking that actual evidence had been produced to support that proposition. Indeed, it was not.

[Stewart Hosie]

The Minister’s memory is appalling. I intervened on the Labour Front-Bench spokesman to ask the Labour party’s position on corporation tax. I said no such thing about evidence being provided to the UK Government. I am sure Hansard will bear that out. If, however, the Minister wants to carry on and embarrass himself further, I will be delighted to listen.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I would obviously not allow the Opposition Front-Bench team to respond. I am sure that, as we go through the further provisions, everyone will be able to discuss the issues about taxation that they wish to raise.

[David Mundell]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall not use the same tone as the hon. Gentleman, although I think his remarks confirmed that no evidence had been produced at all or in any form to support the proposition of devolving corporation tax. That is why it is not being devolved in this Bill and is not the subject of these or any other amendments brought forward in the House of Lords. I support the amendment on that basis.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to.

Clause 7

Partial suspension of Acts subject to scrutiny by Supreme Court

[David Mundell]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 2.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this we may take Lords amendments 5, 6, 17, 18 and 26.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

Again, I would not want the hon. Gentleman to mislead the House. The regulation of activities in Antarctica are re-reserved to this House.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

And I know that no Member would mislead this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying about this complicated subject. He quoted the First Minister of Scotland as saying that he would only equalise taxation. I know the hon. Gentleman cannot answer for the SNP, but if the past is anything to go by, Labour always raises taxes. Can he therefore confirm that, should Scotland separate from the rest of the United Kingdom, he could give no undertaking that a future Labour Government in Scotland might not stick by the current First Minister’s—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The length of the hon. Lady’s intervention is stretching even my patience a little. We are not speculating about such matters; we are only discussing an amendment at this stage.

[Mr Bain]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The hon. Lady tempts me to make future tax policy. However, the point she makes is that corporation tax is better levied and raised at UK level, and that is what we shall be defending in the debates on these amendments and the debates in the coming months.

The agreement between the UK Government and the Scottish Government provides that borrowing limits will be reviewed regularly, ahead of UK spending reviews by the Joint Exchequer Committee, and a consultation will be initiated on the Scottish Government being able to issue bonds. The annual reports will allow Members of this House and the Scottish Parliament both to scrutinise the detailed arrangements made by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Scottish Government in the run-up to implementation and the first five years following the commencement of operation of the new fiscal powers, and to permit any remaining issues—such as the precise interpretation of the definition of a Scottish taxpayer, as raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) in Committee—to be resolved before the tax powers become active in April 2015. It is also our view that the reports will provide an opportunity to scrutinise arrangements made at Holyrood on the workings or replacement of stamp duty land tax. We welcome the new commitments on giving consideration to bond issuance by the Scottish Government, and the additional capacity that such borrowing powers will provide to the Scottish Government to make capital and infrastructure investments, which are vital for Scotland’s economic competitiveness.

The requirement to make annual reports will also show the strength of the financial powers being devolved by the Bill. The Scottish Consolidated Fund will have sufficient balance to ensure cash flow on the devolution of these new tax powers and to manage any excessive in-year volatility of tax receipts. It will also meet differences between forecast and out-turn receipts on income tax allocated to the Scottish Government at the beginning of the relevant fiscal year.

Scotland Bill

Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Commons Chamber

Question again proposed.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing new clause 2—Regional members of the Scottish Parliament—

‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 81, after subsection (2), there is inserted—

“(2A) No provision shall be made under subsection (2) for any allowances for representative work in any constituency or region by a regional member in a registered political party or a group of such regional members; and no allowances may be made for offices or staff or related expenses incurred by such members other than in connection with or at the Parliament’s place of meeting or in connection with a committee meeting.

(2B) Any allowances paid to regional members in a registered political party shall be founded on the assumption that they are representatives of that party from the relevant region and not from any single constituency.”.

(3) In Schedule 3, after paragraph 2 , there is inserted—

2A The standing orders shall include provision for withdrawing from a regional member in a registered political party any or all of his rights and privileges as a member, including any allowances, if he is found to have purported to act, or has held himself out, as a constituency member for any single constituency or for a group of constituencies other than the region from which he was elected.”’.

--- Later in debate ---

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern, which has been a consistent concern in Scotland, that at various times list Members appear to have promoted themselves as constituency Members? Does he agree that that must be tackled as a matter of priority? Does he further understand that in the spirit of the Scottish Parliament rules, it was anticipated that regional list Members would notify constituency Members whenever they took up casework? In my almost 12 years as an MSP, it was very rare—

[The Chairman]

Order. I know that this debate is very important, but may we have shorter interventions?

[Mr Donohoe]

There is no one in the House who knows the system north of the border better than my hon. Friend, because she was an MSP, and still is until, I think, the 24th of this month.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Reid]

Exactly. The two candidates with the most votes are the first two past the post. That is not first past the post. I think that the hon. Gentleman is signalling “two” to me. I will assume that that is what his gesture means, Mr Hoyle.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I think that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) was signalling “first two past the post” and nothing more. I am reassured, am I not, Mr Donohoe? Yes.

[Mr Reid]

Thank you for that clarification, Mr Hoyle.

In these constituencies two Members will be elected—the two who receive the most votes. That is not first past the post; it is first two past the post. I do not think that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire understands his own new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I have given way to the hon. Lady already, so I will move on.

The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire and many of his colleagues want to return to the good old days of the old Glasgow council, when 69 Labour members, out of 79, were elected on 48% of the vote. That is democracy Labour-style—90% of members on 40% of the vote. Thank goodness we will not be going back to that. People are saying that is right and that it is what they want and I believe that that underpins all these measures—the Labour party benefiting massively from first past the post.

In the past few years, this issue has consistently come up. In the 10 years that I have been in the House, we have had these debates about Arbuthnott and other matters. We were told that we could not call the Scottish Government a Government and that we had to call them the Scottish Executive. I remember the days of the timid, unadventurous Labour Executive, always casting their eyes southwards to London, awaiting orders, instructions and directions about what to do, but those days have gone. We now have an SNP Government in Scotland and we will never again have the House of Commons clicking its fingers and the Scottish Parliament doing that dance. I look forward to that.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

We are moving completely off the new clause and I think we ought to get back to it. I know that the hon. Gentleman has been tempted by all the interventions, but we ought to stick to the new clause.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful, Mr Hoyle.

I do not think that the signatories to the new clauses singularly loathe the additional member system—they also loathe the single transferable vote for local government in Scotland and everything to do with proportional representation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I wonder which party in Scotland the hon. Gentleman would say has the best record on constitutional reform—the parties in the Scottish Constitutional Convention, Labour and Lib Dems who delivered STV for local government, or an SNP Government who could not even deliver a referendum.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. That is not relevant to the new clause either.

[Pete Wishart]

The point was well made. The voting mechanism was not designed by the SNP, but we still won, which was remarkable. We hear Labour Members of Parliament down here disparage and knock the current arrangements. Those are their arrangements. When the Liberals were arguing in the Scottish Constitutional Convention—hon. Members may correct me if I am wrong—they would probably have been arguing for STV. That would be the preferred option. AMS was Labour’s system, which the Liberals agreed with in order to ensure proportionality. For Labour Members to make such a fuss about AMS now is a bit rich, given that it is their system. Our preferred system, if the hon. Lady wants to know, is full single transferable vote. That is what we want for Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I am no longer the Chief Whip, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for promoting me back to that distinguished role. I look forward to the outcome of a free vote in the Labour party. It will be fascinating. We will pay keen attention to who supports the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire in all this. I hope they are true to their convictions—[Interruption.] Oh, it is not a free vote, we hear.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Whether or not Labour Members have a free vote is not relevant to new clause 1. Let us get back to the new clause, and I am sure Mr Wishart would not want to keep repeating himself.

[Pete Wishart]

Indeed, Mr Hoyle. I hope I was not repeating myself, but I was interested in that free vote concept. I would love to have seen a free vote on the matter under discussion. I hope that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire will press the new clause to a Division so that we get an opportunity to see who is for and who is against. Labour is totally split on the issue, and the Scottish people need to see where the Labour party is in all this. We in the SNP will of course oppose the new clause, because we believe in fair votes and in the right of the Scottish Parliament to make its own decisions and arrangements on voting and membership. That is how normal, self-respecting Parliaments do their business.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Davidson]

Okay. The party that had been second at the general election was not second, and it did not win the seat.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I am not quite sure what is the relevance of Barnsley. The Committee is well aware of the Barnsley result without Mr Davidson going into further detail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr MacNeil]

May I tempt the hon. Gentleman, who I know is a committed Europhile, to extend that logic? If the Scottish Parliament foists a system on local government, and if the UK Government foist a system on the Scottish Parliament, would he want the European Parliament to foist an electoral system on the House of Commons?

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. That is a temptation, but this is about the abolition of regional Members. We are in danger of being dragged around Europe, Scotland and the UK, so I think we should get back to new clause 1.

[Mr Davidson]

A very bad boy was trying to tempt me down the highway, Mr Hoyle. Earlier, I heard an SNP Member shouting that they wanted Scotland to join the euro as soon as possible, but that is nothing to do with this debate either, and I therefore do not intend to bring it up.

The deal was a backroom deal and the old politics, in exactly the same way as the coalition was the old politics. Just as the Liberals were bought off for the Scottish Parliament, so they have been bought off with the promise of AV for this Parliament. I noticed yesterday a whole string of Liberals wearing “Yes to AV” badges. I will not mention that now, but come back to it in a later debate—

[Mark Lazarowicz]

rose—

[The Chairman of Ways and Means]

Order. We are going to discuss the abolition of regional Members. We are not going to be dragged back or come back to that other matter later; we will stick to new clause 1. We need to make progress. I think Mark Lazarowicz was about to intervene on you, Mr Davidson. Are you giving way?

[Mr Davidson]

Yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I shall certainly not tempt him off the straight and narrow. On how the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament was adopted, the fine details were a result of detailed discussion within the Constitutional Convention. Surely my hon. Friend accepts that the final system was endorsed by the electorate. The principle of having a proportional system for the Scottish Parliament was worked out at length through debate and consultation—it was certainly not the product of a backroom deal, but the product of many months of discussion and public consultation. As he knows, the Labour party conference voted 2:1 in favour of the final deal after the final agreement between the parties in the convention.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means]

Order. We do not need reports on the Labour party conference, so I think we will get back to new clause 1.

[Mr Davidson]

None the less, my hon. Friend’s point relates to whether it is possible, without inviting thunderbolts from on high, to consider changes to the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament. It seems to me that that is desirable. We regularly examine other elements of the Scottish Parliament and aspects of devolution—I remind hon. Members that devolution is a moving feast and not static—and so we should examine the electoral system.

I do not intend to vote for new clauses 1 and 2, which were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire, because I am not convinced that his proposals are the correct way forward. However, there is something wrong with the existing system, and it needs to be changed.