Scotland Bill

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

There are some benefits from doing so.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and it is a pity that we did not get to hear the rest of his speech. SNP Members were particularly looking forward to the tour de force that his tour around Scotland would have provided. Perhaps we will have the opportunity to hear it another day.

We in the Scottish National party welcome the Lords amendments. Anything that gives more power to the Scottish Parliament will be welcome to us. At this, the last moment of the last day of the last stage of the Scotland Bill, I just want to say: what a process we have had! There are many things we could say about the Bill, but we could never describe it as being particularly exciting. It has never had much press attention in the course of the past few months. We could describe it as unambitious, uneventful or lacking the powers to grow the economy, but the main thing about the Bill is that it is so “minority Government”. It is from another day, another era—it is from the last gasp of a Unionist majority in the Scottish Parliament. It is from a day that has passed.

[Mrs Laing]

I fail to understand how the hon. Gentleman can find it unexciting or irrelevant that Members of the Scottish Parliament are being made more accountable to the people of Scotland. That is what devolution and increasing democracy are all about. I would have thought that he would be excited by that.

[Pete Wishart]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. As always in these debates, she makes a colourful presence and puts her case passionately and well. I must say, however, that the Bill has been overtaken by events. Things have happened over the past year, and the one big thing that happened was the election of a majority SNP Government. Everything has changed because of that.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am genuinely sorry that the hon. Gentleman is not more positive in welcoming the Bill, but his support in the voting Lobby is obviously what matters. He mentions the things that have happened over the past year. In the past day, we have heard the amazing announcement by the First Minister that he is in favour of having the same income tax levels even if Scotland were to be given independence. Is it not amazing that a party that has been struggling for independence for 90 years is now telling us that, if Scotland were to become independent, nothing much would change?

[Pete Wishart]

What the Scottish people are hearing is a compelling case for Scottish independence, and the question will be put to them in a couple of years. The overwhelming majority of them will endorse and support it. We look forward to having that debate over the next couple of years, because we are absolutely confident that we will secure that overwhelming majority.

[Mr Frank Roy]

Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what made the Bill a bad Bill, and what it is that now makes it a good Bill?

[Pete Wishart]

To be fair, this is a much better Bill now than it was a year ago. All the damaging economic powers that would have cost Scotland so much have gone. I am also glad that the UK Government have agreed with the Scottish Government on commencement powers, so that we will no longer be exposed to the damaging measure that would have had a massive and dramatic impact on Scotland.

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[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I have a choice between the two Front Benches. I will give way to the Minister first.

[David Mundell]

We would not want the hon. Gentleman to mislead the House. The UK Government have not agreed with the Scottish Government on dual commencement. What we have said is that it is desirable and that we will work with the Scottish Government to achieve it, but it has not been agreed on at this stage. I say this just so that right hon. and hon. Members are not misled.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that. It is good that he agrees with the Scottish Government that joint commencement is a good idea and I welcome the fact that there will be a veto for the Scottish Parliament in regard to the commencement of potentially damaging tax powers.

The Bill does not meet the aspirations of the Scottish people. It does not meet the aspirations of the anti-independence parties either. They have all moved on as well, and decided that these provisions are not enough. The Conservative-led Unionist alliance and what accounts for their think-tanks are all now considering the next stages of devolution as they move forward. They, as well as the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people, have passed the Bill by. The Bill is finished, it is dead, it is something that belongs to another day and another era.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

I think I heard the hon. Gentleman say a few moments ago that this version of the Bill would save the Scottish Government and the Scottish people many billions, compared with the version that we discussed a year ago. Will he tell the House which amendments that observation pertains to, and what it was that he was talking about?

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[Pete Wishart]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman heard my exchange with the Minister, but this is to do with commencement powers. The agreement of the Scottish Parliament will now have to be sought before any tax-changing powers are brought in, which is right and appropriate. That will ensure that we do not go down any route that could damage the Scottish economy or the way in which the Scottish Parliament is funded.

I can see that you are keen for me to speak to the Lords amendments, Mr Deputy Speaker. We welcome the amendments. It is unfortunate that the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) is not here, but he will at last be able to refer to the Scottish Government as, well, a Government. The days of the Executive—and the unambitious Executives of the past—are finally at an end. The term “Executive” refers to boardrooms and golf clubs. It is Governments who run Scotland. As long as we are in charge, it is a Government, it will continue to be a Government and it will have the powers of a Government.

[Mr Frank Roy]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that his party voted for the Scotland Act 1998, which introduced the Scottish Executive?

[Pete Wishart]

One of the first things we did when we came into government, back in 2007, was to ensure that we were a Scottish Government. If it looks like a Government, walks like a Government and quacks like a Government, it is a Government. We will continue to be that Government. The days of the unambitious Labour-Liberal Executive have now gone, and thank goodness for that.

We welcome the amendments, and I look forward to discussing the others and finding out why the Labour party has changed its mind on—

[Ian Murray]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I have just about finished my speech, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. I have had enough of Labour Members’ interventions, as they all tend to be on the same theme, but I thank him for his interest.

We will support the Lords amendments. It is in Scotland’s interests that the powers should be transferred, and we will continue to support the rest of the amendments.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Minister, do you wish to speak—[Interruption.] I am sorry; I call Anne McGuire.

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[Mrs McGuire]

I take your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker.

If the amendment is accepted—

[Pete Wishart]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Mrs McGuire]

No, I do not think I will.

[Pete Wishart]

I gave way to them!

[Mrs McGuire]

I think that Mr Deputy Speaker wants us to move the business on, and I do not wish to trespass further on his charity.

I want a reassurance that there will be full discussions between the UK Government and the Scottish Government to ensure that we have a framework that will regulate health professionals across the United Kingdom, albeit that the Scottish Government will have responsibility.

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[David Mundell]

As I said earlier, the Scottish Government have given assurances that although there will not be a relevant clause in the Bill, they will work with the UK Government to ensure that there is a uniform approach to the regulation of health professionals. I think that those remarks are consistent with the First Minister’s statement yesterday that he intended to align taxes in Scotland with those in the rest of the United Kingdom if Scotland became independent. In fact, if Scotland became independent, there would be no difference on virtually any matter.

Lords amendment 17 would remove clause 27. The Government included that clause to provide UK Ministers, concurrently with Scottish Ministers, with a power to implement international obligations in devolved areas. That would have allowed UK Ministers to implement international obligations on a UK basis, where it would be more convenient to do so. Both Governments acknowledge the importance of ensuring that all of the UK’s international obligations are fully implemented across the UK in a timely fashion. The UK Government are willing to remove this clause on the understanding that Scottish Ministers will ensure that any international obligations that fall within their responsibility are implemented on time. We have made clear to Scottish Ministers that the Government would be prepared to use their existing powers of direction under section 58(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 if we were to have concerns about the implementation of international obligations within the remit of Scottish Ministers.

Let me make it absolutely clear that the Government have not conceded on the principle of re-reservation, as the Scottish National party suggested during our earlier debates on this Bill. The Bill does not make devolution a one-way street. Clause 14 re-reserves the regulation of activities in Antarctica.

[Pete Wishart]

If it is not a one-way street, which powers are now coming back to this House apart from those on Antarctica?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman forgets that he and his colleagues moved an amendment to remove the clause re-reserving activities in Antarctica. They were defeated in this House, and the Scottish Government have accepted that the regulation of activities in Antarctica should be re-reserved. I fail to understand the SNP negotiating position, because it appears that the regulation of dental hygienists—important though that is, as the right hon. Member for Stirling said—cannot be re-reserved, yet matters such as the administration of the Crown Estate, corporation tax, excise duties and further broadcasting powers were not red lines for the SNP in its discussions on this Bill.

[Pete Wishart]

To ensure that the Minister does not mischaracterise the approach of the Scottish Government, let me state that we are not for any re-reservations of powers now. That is why the Bill is now more acceptable to the SNP and the Scottish Government.

[David Mundell]

Again, I would not want the hon. Gentleman to mislead the House. The regulation of activities in Antarctica are re-reserved to this House.

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[Iain Stewart]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point, as the essence of the Bill is that it creates additional transparency and provides for democratic scrutiny of the decisions made by the Scottish Parliament. That is important not only in Scotland, but in England. I am sure that constituents write to him to complain about some of what they see as the largesse given to Scotland. Some of what is reported to us is not accurate—the media tend to whip up a storm about the bounty that is provided to Scotland. Some of what is said may be true, but greater transparency will be healthy for democracy and it will remove some of the myths from the debate. I think that this measure will be good for the Scottish Parliament, for devolution and for the Union.

[Pete Wishart]

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman with keen interest and I very much approve of the tone of his remarks. Will he ensure that when nonsensical claims are made about Scotland having this “largesse”, as he describes it, he will deal with them all in the same way as he just has?

[Iain Stewart]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I always try to be reasonable and measured in my comments. These issues are important and I have long argued—I will not repeat the arguments that I have made in other debates, as I think you would quickly rule me out of order, Madam Deputy Speaker—that there is a great deal of confusion about the fiscal relationship between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. I think that this measure will give extra clarity. Some of the claims are justified; others are not. I shall not be tempted down the path of identifying which are and which are not, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) says, it is important to have that scrutiny so that we can keep tabs on this very complex change. The last thing our economy needs in these difficult economic times is additional uncertainty about changes that are being rushed through that might provide uncertain trading conditions for companies. The proposed process is measured, calm and sensible.

I am glad that some of the other demands for fiscal transfers have been resisted at this stage. We have talked about corporation tax and I will not re-enter that debate. The demands made by the Scottish National party initially included the transfer of excise duties, but even they now realise the complexity that that would involve, thanks to the fact that such an august body as the Scotch Whisky Association—a very fine body—pointed out that different alcohol duties north and south of the border would require the introduction of some sort of tax border policing to ensure that there was no abuse of the system. I am glad that that demand has been dropped.

As my hon. Friend says, the additional transparency will be good for our constituents. The publication of the annual reports will also be helpful in relation to another sensible change that has been made during the progress of this Bill, which is the proposed adjustment to the annual block grant. Initially, I think there was to be a one-off assessment of what change should be made to the block grant as a result of the fiscal changes. That has now been amended to be an annual assessment of what I think is known as the Holtham approach, which has been considered for funding for the Welsh Assembly. Having that annual check on a very complex and dynamic fiscal situation will be sensible. I recall that similar changes were made to the calculation of the Barnett formula in the 1990s when the initial formula, which had been set in stone since it was first introduced in the late 1970s, had resulted in some disparities and anomalies as a result of changing population levels. That has since been adjusted to an annual change.

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[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

Having listened to the positive speeches that have been made about Lords amendment 18, I wonder whether it needs more support from either side of the House, but I rise to support it none the less.

As a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee, I welcome the Bill, as amended, and recognise how positive it is that the Government have delivered the additional powers for Holyrood that were promised in the coalition agreement, thereby fulfilling a manifesto commitment of more than one party in the House. As has been said many times—but it bears repeating—the Bill will deliver the largest transfer of fiscal powers to Scotland since the creation of the UK. It has involved a huge amount of work by many people, not least by Ministers at the Scotland Office. I congratulate them on reaching this stage with the Bill and on its being supported by Holyrood and the UK Government without reservation.

I welcome Lords amendment 18, which will facilitate better scrutiny of the implementation of the financial aspects of the Bill. As we all recognise, economic growth driven by enterprise and predominantly by businesses in our local communities will be a key element in the resurgence of this nation. Creating a new Scottish rate of income tax from April 2016 will give the Scottish Government more responsibility not only over how they spend revenue, but over how they raise it. That is a crucial discipline, which we hope will increase the likelihood that fiscal decisions will reflect the needs and priorities of Scotland, the Scottish economy and, most importantly, the businesses of Scotland. This is an opportunity to deliver genuine and innovative fiscal accountability for the people of Scotland. The amendment will further facilitate and enhance that.

I welcome the fairness, transparency and accountability that the amendment will promote, which have been mentioned by a number of Members. It will insert a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to publish a report on the implementation and operation of the financial aspects of the Bill within one year of the Bill becoming an Act, and thereafter to publish an annual report until a year after the tax and borrowing powers are fully transferred to the Scottish Parliament. I welcome the fact that such reports must be laid before both Houses of Parliament and sent to Scottish Ministers, who will have to lay them before the Scottish Parliament, and the joint working and greater co-operation that that process will undoubtedly promote. As has been said, the new clause will require Scottish Ministers to make and lay reports of the same kind before the Scottish Parliament on an annual basis and to provide a copy of each report to the Secretary of State to lay before both Houses of Parliament.

The new clause also sets out the areas that each report must include. That detail is welcome, and I will mention some of the details because, although they have been referred to, they have not been covered as comprehensively as I would like. The reports must include an update on all aspects of progress towards the commencement of provisions on the financial aspects of the Bill since the previous report; detail of any steps towards the commencement that the maker of the report proposes should be taken; an assessment of the operation of the provisions that have been commenced; an assessment of the operation of powers to devolve taxes to the Scottish Parliament or to change the powers of Scottish Ministers to borrow—those borrowing powers are substantial and I will return to them in a moment—or of any other changes to the financial provisions in the Bill; the effect of transferring tax powers on the Scottish block grant; and any other matters concerning sources of revenue for the Scottish Administration that the maker of the report considers should be brought to the attention of the UK or Scottish Parliaments. The sheer width of the areas that will be scrutinised in the report is to be welcomed.

There will be a new £2.2 billion capital borrowing power for the Scottish Parliament from April 2015. A limited version of the power will be in place from April 2013 to enable the Scottish Government to fund £100 million of prepayments for the Forth road crossing, which will allow early work on the bridge to get under way. That will provide an effective boost for the economy across Scotland and the UK.

The other powers that will be introduced and that will be scrutinised include not only the new Scottish rate of income tax, which will be in place from April 2016, but the power to introduce new taxes, subject to the agreement of the UK Government, from the enactment of the Bill, and the full devolution of stamp duty, land tax and landfill tax from April 2015. Those are not token gestures, but substantial changes, as the figures show. Last month, the Office for Budget Responsibility produced a forecast of the sums that will be raised under the Scotland Bill powers in 2015-16. The figures demonstrate the importance of good scrutiny. The sums are great: £5,265 million from income tax, £480 million from stamp duty, £151 million from landfill tax and £49 million from the aggregates levy. They are huge figures by any standards, and it is right that there is year-on-year reporting on them, with scrutiny and accountability. That is why the amendment is so welcome.

The amendment will strengthen democratic accountability, better inform all those involved and the people whom they serve and bolster political engagement in Scottish communities, which is welcome. The amended income tax provision in the Bill will mean that the procedure for setting the Scottish Government’s budget will be more responsive to the wishes of the Scottish electorate, and the additional provisions of Lords amendment 18 will effectively augment the implementation of the change.

The Bill as amended is about improving the devolution settlement and promoting economic growth effectively. The income tax proposals in it retain the reservation of overall fiscal management to the UK Government, but ensure that Scotland’s needs are supported alongside a UK-wide strategy of promoting growth and economic stability for all those in the Union. In welcoming the Bill, the report of the Scottish Parliament’s own Committee stated:

“The Scotland Bill is about good government. It is intended to improve how Scotland is governed and align decisions on spending and taxation more closely so that the Scottish Parliament will be more accountable and, in the long run, take better decisions. Better decisions will, in the longer term, mean improvements to many aspects of Scottish public life.”

I am sure the scrutiny that the amendment will provide—it is good to hear that it is a Government amendment—will indeed furnish those improvements.

Devolution on the basis of the Bill as amended will give Scotland the best of both worlds. It is better off as part of a strong UK when dealing with economic and global security shocks, and the devolution settlement as set down in the Bill will facilitate Scotland in making its own decisions on matters such as health, education, transport and policing. I am therefore pleased that, after careful consideration, the Bill has been supported by both Houses in the UK Parliament, and that it was passed unanimously by the Scottish Parliament just a few days ago following agreement in March between the UK and Scottish Governments on its details. That is an example of the effective joint working that Lords amendment 18 is intended further to promote.

I congratulate the Government on their determination to continue to bring operational effectiveness to the new tax powers in the Bill through joint working over the coming months and years. The Bill is a fair and substantial way of promoting devolution, with the intention of reaching effective implementation. I am sure that Members of all parties will welcome the good intent that the Government are showing towards that effective implementation and joint working on the Bill. I welcome the Bill as amended.

[Pete Wishart]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce). The Scottish people are always pleased at the interest and indulgence of English Members of Parliament in our affairs and business. We are all grateful for that.

It is a pity that the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) has left the Chamber. I did not know whether to reach first for my horned helmet or my longboat during his comments about Vikings. I do not know how many people in Denmark are rushing to join a greater union with Germany—certainly I have never come across a Dane who has been keen to be part of that particular union.

The most notable thing about these Lords amendments is how little they were discussed in the Lords. I do not know whether other Members spent any time looking at the debates in the House of Lords, but I did, and “interminable” would not be the word to describe some of them. At times it seemed like the Michael Forsyth show—he was on his feet all the time. Such is his pre-eminent place in the Tory-led cross-Unionist alliance that people like him are leading the debate just now.

[David Mundell]

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that, unlike the Scottish National party, Lord Forsyth achieved extra devolution to Scotland in the Bill? Lord Forsyth introduced amendments that extended the Scottish Parliament’s powers, which were accepted in the House of Lords and will be proposed in this Chamber. The Scottish National party has failed—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I would like both the Minister and the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) to return to the subject of the amendments. We should talk about the subject, not what debates went on elsewhere. I am sure, Mr Wishart, you will do so immediately.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I want to speak to the Lords amendments and discuss where they came from. We did not get much of a debate in the House of Lords. I do not know whether the Minister is helping the cross-Unionist campaign by promoting Michael Forsyth as a champion of the Unionist cause. I can see Labour Members practically squirming—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Perhaps I did not make myself abundantly clear, Mr Wishart, so I shall do it now. If you wish to address the House, I wish you to address it on the basis of the business before us, which is Lords amendment 18 and associated matters, and to do so now, please.

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[Pete Wishart]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was just making the point that there was very little in the way of debate, but the Government amendments are welcome. I particularly welcome the fact that the re-reservations have disappeared. I heard what the Minister said. I remember debates in the House going back to last March on the re-reservations of health professionals. I remember the passionate case that was put for—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. We are not on Third Reading for the hon. Gentleman to reflect on the entire debates on the Bill. We are on very specific and narrow Lords amendments, and I would like him to address them.

[Pete Wishart]

I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is there not an amendment about health professionals? Can I not address that?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I have not heard the hon. Gentleman mention health professionals yet, except on that point. If it is relevant to the amendments, he can address health professionals.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We have effectively ensured that there will no longer be re-reservations of health professionals because the clause was dropped, but the point I was trying to make was on how we managed to get to that point. I remember the debate and the passionate case that was put for the re-reservation of health professionals. The right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) does not agree with that, but I do not know whether Labour Front Benchers take that position or whether they believe that re-reservation is no longer required. I would be interested to find out how we got to this position.

[David Mundell]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not hear what I said earlier. The Government reached this position because the Scottish Government gave assurances that they would work with the UK Government to ensure that the regulation of health professionals was the same across the UK. On the basis of those assurances, which I understand still hold good, the UK Government agreed that we would not put that clause in the Bill, hence the amendment. We have acted on the basis of assurances given by the SNP Government. I do not expect that they will renege on those assurances, and I hope the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting they will.

[Pete Wishart]

That sort of clarifies things, but I do not understand why the Minister did not accept the amendments when they were debated in the House in March last year. We know the right hon. Member for Stirling does not like the amendments and that the Minister has grudgingly given the re-reservation away, but we do not know the position of Labour Front Benchers.

[Mrs McGuire]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I will give way to the right hon. Lady even though she did not give way to me.

[Mrs McGuire]

I appreciate that I pre-empted this debate by speaking to the earlier group of amendments, but for the sake of clarity, I said that I supported the amendment because of the assurances given by the Scottish Government that there would still be a system of strategic regulation of health professionals. I would not like the hon. Gentleman to misinterpret me even if I pre-empted this discussion.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. I listened very carefully to what she said earlier, and picked up that her acceptance of that re-reservation measure was very grudging, as was her acceptance of the rest of the re-reservation measures addressed in this group of amendments.

There is one issue that has escaped attention, and that is the partially suspended acts of the Scottish Parliament, so that they can be challenged in the Supreme Court. One act of the Scottish Parliament that was challenged in the Supreme Court was our legislation on compensation for the victims of asbestos—a very important Bill that was supported by the whole of the Scottish Parliament. I am glad that the Supreme Court upheld the Scottish Parliament’s position on that issue. If that partial suspension had been allowed to continue, such challenges would have become much more common.

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[Mrs Laing]

Perhaps I am being cynical about the hon. Gentleman’s motives; I have listened to him speaking in the House over many years.

[Pete Wishart]

I am very disappointed that the hon. Lady should interpret my kind and pleasant comments in such a way. The people of Scotland are always on tenterhooks waiting to hear what she has to say on the great Scottish issues.

[Mrs Laing]

It is a matter of fact that, since the sad passing of my mother, nobody in Scotland listens to me at all any more, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I hope that he will forgive me for misinterpreting what he said.

The fact is that this is the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and the matters that are discussed and examined here affect the whole of the United Kingdom. That is why Lords amendment 18 is so important. Just as the people of Epping Forest have no particular interest in what happens in Liverpool, Birmingham, Leeds, Hull, Cornwall or Belfast, those events affect all of us none the less. We live together on this small island, and any artificially created divisions cannot hide the fact that we are interdependent and that our economy is the economy of the whole of the British isles. Those things that affect one of us affect all of us, and that is why Lords amendment 18 is so important.

The amendment clearly highlights the equal partnership, particularly in regard to taxation and economic welfare, between this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament. I wonder why anyone would wish to go further and create an unnecessary and damaging artificial separation. Amendment 18 and the others pertaining to this part of the Bill relate to an enormous transfer of power and accountability from this Parliament to the Scottish Parliament. So it should be. As a result of the transparency introduced by the Bill, as a result of Lords amendment 18, both Parliaments will be required to examine the economic fiscal affairs of each part of the United Kingdom. I hope that those matters will therefore be clearly seen as the years go on. If separation were to take place, we would lose all the strength that has been built up over a long time. I hope, however, that it will become apparent, with more transparency and a greater ability on the part of each of our legislative Houses to examine these matters, that the interdependence of the United Kingdom brings benefits to all of the United Kingdom.