Reserve Forces

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

On that specific point, my hon. Friend will be aware that in the past few years the reserves have provided the framework unit for half of all the rotations in Helmand. There is indeed a range of practice, but we are working hard with the NHS, and many of the award-winning employers are in fact NHS trusts.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend is on the case; I can think of no better man for the job. My understanding is that there is a range of different practices in the way different trusts handle their medical reservists. It strikes me that there is an opportunity for the Government to streamline the process for the benefit of the reservists, the reserve and the NHS trusts themselves.

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[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I apologise to the shadow Minister and the Minister; two of us have another meeting at half-past 10, which we are duty-bound to go to, so I will have to leave. I mean no disrespect to either hon. Gentleman; it is simply that business presses in other places.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on bringing this important issue to the House and setting the scene well and in great detail. I declare an interest as a member of the Defence Committee—as are others here—and as a former part-time soldier, with three years in the Ulster Defence Regiment and 11 and a half years as a Territorial Army soldier in the Royal Artillery. I never achieved officer status; I drove a 4-tonne lorry—someone had to drive the lorries—and I achieved the very high rank of lance bombardier. I was an ordinary soldier, and so bring some knowledge to the debate.

We have a proud history as a military nation, and are always at the forefront of defending justice, democracy and the vulnerable. That has never been more important, in the light of the attacks on Paris last weekend. We are living in tough economic times, but must ensure that we do not retreat from the world stage. We cannot become isolationist. We are Great Britain—the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—and are bigger and better than that. Our role is on the global stage, as a strong extrovert international voice. We have been a force for good in the past, and can be in the future. We cannot put that at risk by making huge decisions about our armed forces and our reserve forces without taking into account the changing global environment.

The tragic events of Friday are a stark reminder of the global nature of the threats that we, as a civilisation, face today, so we must think more carefully than ever about the implications of cuts to any aspect of our armed services. I know times are tough and we are being asked to tighten our belts, but the goalposts have moved. The global security environment has changed. The world has changed, and is changing again, and we need to be aware of that. Our armed forces and reserve forces are there if we need them, and we do not want to have depleted armed forces when they are most needed.

I understand that we have to have 82,000 full-time service personnel; on the present figures, we have about 79,500, so we have not even met the figures for full-time personnel. If we are having problems filling the uniforms in our full-time Navy, Air Force and Army, the issues for reserve forces are even more acute. Perhaps the Minister can tell us that the figures have changed and that, in the last few months, we have recruited about 2,500. That would be marvellous news, but let us make sure that when we talk about reserve forces, we do not unknowingly disregard our full-time forces.

I welcome the recruitment drive to increase the reserve forces to 35,000 in strength by 2018, but I reiterate that it is imperative that our armed forces’ effectiveness as a whole is not adversely affected as a result. The Minister and the hon. Member for Kettering, in his introduction, have set the scene relating to our reserve force capacity. It is obvious that we are not yet achieving our aim, but we cannot keep depleting our full-time forces if the reserve forces do not fill the gap—and, to be fair to our reserve forces, they should do so in a way that allows them to compete, and to add to what is already there. With proper training and the appropriate services and amenities, I am sure that we can have the future reserves that we are talking about, whom we can depend on when needed, but we have to make sure that that happens. We cannot replace lost service personnel with reservists who need to be fully trained, because the ultimate consequences of that would be simply too much to bear.

Many of the people who sign up to reserve forces, and are first in line for call-up, work in small businesses; that is probably more the case in Northern Ireland than on the mainland. Perhaps the Minister can tell us how to make sure that there is an employer-employee relationship that ensures that the reservist can give their commitment, and the small business employing 10 or a dozen people can operate. That small business might even employ fewer people than that. If it employs five people and one is taken out, it has a 20% reduction in its workforce. We need to address those issues for the employer as well.

[Mr Brazier]

I am avoiding making interventions because time is so short and so many people want to speak, but I shall, given that the hon. Gentleman has to leave. We have not only expanded the provision for employers in general when people are mobilised, but have introduced a supplementary £500 per month per individual mobilised for small and medium-sized enterprises. However, I welcome his point.

[Jim Shannon]

It is obvious that the Government are responding to the situation, but I am conscious of the mechanics of how that works in a small business. I appreciate the Minister’s response, however.

In Northern Ireland, we are already almost at our capacity for reserve forces. Our numbers are very clear. I have said in the past, and I say it again for the record, that if there is room to take more reservists, and I believe there is, it is important to make up at least some of those numbers in Northern Ireland. We can expand recruitment capacity in the Province to help meet the required number of reserves, as the Province has a long history of serving. Indeed, it provides more service personnel proportionally than any other British region.

The British Medical Association is concerned about undermanning in the Defence Medical Services and the effect that will have on morale, motivation and retention. The 253 (North Irish) Medical Regiment has an important role to play in the future of any Army action, wherever that may be in the world. The reservists’ role in that is so important. DMS says that although many who are willing to serve Queen and country get the very best, which is no less than they deserve, there are concerns about how the numbers will be made up, so there needs to be a strong recruitment drive. Constituents of mine who are doctors, and other personnel and staff from hospitals, are involved in that. Some specialities, such as neurology or urology, will be provided entirely by the reserve forces, as I understand it, and perhaps the Minister will comment on that. According to the BMA, there is a shortfall of approximately 68% in DMS. We need to deal with some of those issues.

Time is going by, so I will finish. We need to focus on where the shortfalls are in DMS, and to ensure that employers have a role and can let their personnel be part of that. We should offer our strongest condolences to those affected by the Paris attacks. I urge Members to learn from those events, and to be mindful, when deciding the future of our armed forces, that evil forces such as Daesh or ISIS are exactly why we must maintain strong, influential and quality armed services. Our reserves are very much part of that.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) for securing the debate. When he was serving in his trench in Germany in the 1980s, I was even further east during the cold war, in Berlin, surrounded by the enemy. We were always told that quality would see us through, but some of us also knew that quantity has a quality all of its own, and that we stood very little chance. Our job was just to slow the progress of the advancing forces in time for when they met my hon. Friend, who would obviously put a stop to them.

I start by making the obvious point: the plan to replace 20,000 regulars with 30,000 reservists was born out of financial pressures, not strategic logic—let us be absolutely clear about that. As was described to me and others by the then Secretary of State for Defence, the financial logic was very simple. In peacetime, reservists cost a fraction of regular forces; they are easier to maintain on the Ministry of Defence budget, but when the balloon goes up and they need to be deployed, the cost of deployment, which is far higher for reservists than it is for regulars, gets transferred to the Treasury. It was an accounting exercise designed to save money. There were no strategic grand designs with this plan. That is not to say that there are not advantages from having a more flexible reservist force available to hand, or that one does not have a deep regard for the Territorial, now reservist, forces—I served with them myself in Berlin, Germany, Cyprus and Northern Ireland back in the 1980s—but the bottom line is that the plan was born out of financial pressure, not strategic design.

The plan was criticised by some of us at the time. The criticism manifested itself most starkly when we tabled amendments to the Defence Reform Bill, later the 2014 Act, in the last Parliament. I managed to secure the support of the official Opposition and the Scottish National party for an amendment, but unfortunately I could not carry quite enough Members from my side, although I am very thankful to those who did support me in that amendment, including my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering.

For us, the problem was that replacing 20,000 regulars with 30,000 reservists would create capability gaps and false economies in the longer term. The original plan was to hold those 20,000 regulars in situ until we had clear evidence that the reservist plan would work—in other words, until we had geared up on the reservists’ recruitment. There were clear indications that we could plug that gap—that, by the way, was confirmed by the previous Defence Secretary, who stood up during the debate on the amendment to the Defence Reform Bill and said that that was the case and that was the original plan. However, in addition to the cack-handed plan of replacing 20,000 regulars with 30,000 reserves, simply on the grounds of financial pressure, we then compounded the problem by saying, “We’ll let the regulars walk out the door, and no doubt we won’t have any problem with reserve recruitment.” What madness that turned out to be. We let the regulars out the door and the Army is now, I think—no doubt the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—below 82,000 on our regular strength, and meanwhile we are struggling to recruit the reservists, as my hon. Friend has clearly outlined.

The problem is not just numbers. My hon. Friend rightly pointed out that we are perhaps 9,000 or 10,000 reservists short, but, as has been alluded to in this debate, it is not just the numbers that are the problem; it is the age profile of the existing reservists. Answers to written questions more than a year ago highlighted that the average age of an infantryman in the reserve forces was in the mid-30s, and that going up the ranks, whether senior NCOs or officers, it was heading into the 40s.

We all loved “Dad’s Army”—great series—and there is a place for a home reserve, but Dad’s Army was not on the Normandy beaches. In addition to the numbers being recruited into the reserve, we need to look at the age profile of the existing reservists. The figures I quoted are for infantrymen, not the other arms of the reserve. Infantrymen have to be of a certain age to be at their peak capability on deployment.

[Mr Brazier]

My hon. and gallant Friend is generous in giving way. Dad’s Army was not on the Normandy beaches as it was a home defence force, but the Territorial Army most certainly was there. A division helped to hold the line at Dunkirk and, indeed, a national guard division on its own took Omaha beach.

[Mr Baron]

I do not deny all that, and the Minister will not be able to deny that the Government have made it clear that they intend to deploy reservists much more frequently in overseas operations. He gives us only half the truth. If the plan is to deploy reservists much more regularly, not only will that be more costly than deploying regular forces, but we will have to address the demographic issue within existing reservists and the TA.

In the time remaining, let me return to false economies. No one can deny that capability gaps have occurred as a result of the change in plan, but the Minister must address the false economies resulting from that. Letting regulars go prematurely and the problems with reservist recruitment highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering have resulted in extra spending. It is not just the IT fiasco, which cost £10 million, but the extra spending on incentives for both employers and employees —£500—pension equalisation and advertising.

I have asked parliamentary questions about whether the Government can quantify those extra expenses, which were not foreseen when the original plans were put in place. We have not had answers. We keep being told that there is £1.8 billion, which should cover those expenses, but that £1.8 billion is over 10 years. We need detailed answers from the Government on what those unforeseen extra costs have been. When will we have those answers? Either the Government do not know the answers, which would be worrying, or they do know and will not disclose them. That would be equally worrying and may suggest to some that they are trying to hide something.

I look forward to answers from the Minister, and if he does not have time to provide them today, perhaps he will write to me and others who have raised the issue and say what the extra costs are. Our two central concerns are capability gaps in the short term and false economies in the longer term. At the moment, the reservist plans seem to have both problems.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

What a pleasure it is to respond to the debate under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on securing the debate and on his remarkable, predictably thoroughly researched and self-effacing speech. The debate takes place as we remember the first world war, in which the then Territorial Force won 71 Victoria Crosses, and the Battle of Britain, in which two of the three highest-scoring squadrons were from the Royal Auxiliary Air Force.

I will try to pick up as many points as I can in the short time available. My hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who had to leave to attend the Defence Committee, know that I am not allowed to respond to the points they made about special forces, beyond saying that my heart goes out, as I know theirs do, to the families of the three young men. I share my hon. Friend’s pride in the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross he referred to, which is the latest in a series of decorations won by the unit we both served in.

The expansion of the reserve forces is critical to our ability to deliver defence on a sustainable financial basis and to maintain the Clausewitzian trinity of the armed forces, the Government and the people. It will enable us to ensure that the armed forces are structured and resourced to meet the challenges of the 21st century. After many years of neglect, the Government are restructuring and revitalising our reserve forces and investing in new equipment and support.

The programme is not—my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and I have debated this many times—about swapping regular personnel for reserves. In 2010 we did, indeed, make some very painful decisions right across Government. After that, the commission on which I served looked at the issue of the balance and recommended changing the way that we delivered defence to make the best use of our resources, better to harness the talents of the wider UK society and, above all, to help to restore links and understanding between the armed forces and the communities that they serve. The sombre events in Paris remind us of the importance of those close links. We should be in no doubt at all that, whatever the size of our armed forces, we must always have reserves.

Now, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) knows that he is not going to tempt me into anticipating the strategic defence and security review, but I can say that I am pleased to be part of a Government who are genuinely committed to 2% for defence spending, although I know I will not satisfy my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering on the legal point. Nevertheless, we are committed to it.

Our programme to grow the reserves is making good progress but, as my hon. Friend said, there is no room for complacency. In the year to 1 October, more than 8,500 people joined the volunteer reserves, an increase of more than 65% on the previous 12 months, taking their strength to more than 33,000. Most notably, 6,500 people joined the Army Reserve, an increase of 73% on the previous period. All three services are ahead of their trained strength targets, but that certainly does not mean that we can relax. We must continue to make further progress to meet our commitment of creating a force of around 35,000 trained volunteer reserves by April 2019, and to deliver the usable, motivated and capable reserve forces that the country needs. My hon. Friend is right that that means another 9,000 trained personnel in three and a half years’ time. Given that we have grown by 1,300 trained personnel in just the past six months, that seems challenging but not unattainable.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right—a number of other Members referred to this—that the biggest challenge is building the officer base. The internal study set up by the Chief of the General Staff and headed by a reserve brigadier has recommended considerable restructuring, including a marketing post manned by a volunteer reserve officer with huge marketing experience, who is now installed in Sandhurst. The numbers are going up. For example, just outside the constituency of the hon. Member for Stirling (Steven Paterson) is 71 Engineer Regiment, which I visited recently. It now has six young officers under 30—a transformation from even a couple of years ago. The same thing has happened with my local reserve unit.

A number of Members made a point about the need to get the age structure down. In fact, the largest concentration in the age structure of the Army Reserve is in the 25 to 29 category. We are working hard on it, but the averages are pulled up by the fact that we want older people—those in their 40s and even 50s—in areas such as intelligence and for some of the medical skills. A number of Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering, mentioned transfers from the regulars. Those are running above our target. In fact, that is the one part of reserve recruiting that has been consistently above target, and we are offering substantial financial incentives to those who transfer.

We are offering reservists today more challenging opportunities than before. New call-out powers enshrined in the Defence Reform Act 2014 have allowed us to use reservists in the same way as regulars, and reservists have taken up the challenge. We would only have compulsory call-out only in an emergency, but people join the reserves because they want to be used. In the past 12 months, they have been deployed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering said, in formed groups to Afghanistan and Cyprus. They have provided specialist help to deal with the Ebola crisis in west Africa, and maritime reserves have taken part in counter-terrorist and counter-piracy operations alongside their regular counterparts. As my hon. Friend said, next summer a company from 4 Para will provide the framework company for the Falkland Islands.

We are offering reserves more and better training opportunities. In the current training year, the services have planned more than 50 overseas exercises involving reserves, including a series of Army exercises in Kenya with integrated companies of regulars and reserves. A number of Members referred to the crucial importance of the specialist courses in what we call phase 2 and 3 training and to the difficulties of tailoring those to reservists in civilian employment. The fact that Chatham has managed that for an area such as bomb disposal shows that this is possible more widely across the Army.

Several people, including the hon. Member for Bridgend and my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering, referred to the importance of cyber. For quite a long time, the only cyber-unit in the armed forces was a reservist one in the then Territorial Army. Today, reserves play an important role in cyber in all three services.

We have invested in new equipment. We have given reservists access to the regular pension scheme and a paid annual leave entitlement. We are giving them full access to Defence-provided medical care and physiotherapy, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering will remember, was an issue when he and I served. We have improved civilian accreditation for training. Employers are vital and we are immensely grateful for the commitment some of them make.

[Mr Baron]

No one in this Chamber doubts the dedication, hard work and enthusiasm that the Minister is putting into the task of increasing the reserve forces, but he must also accept that key questions remain unresolved, including the age profile of the infantry. We all accept the age profile when it comes to reservists and specialisms such as cyber, but the age profile of the infantry is still far too high—mid-30s and early 40s. May I return the Minister to the central issue of extra costs? There have been extra unforeseen costs with these plans, which, despite frequent requests to the Government, he and the Government are unable or unwilling to disclose. Does he intend—if not here today, then perhaps in the immediate future—to put that right?

[Mr Brazier]

I have written to my hon. Friend and I will write to him again. The ongoing costs of the recruiting process have shown some significant savings, but it is difficult to separate regulars and reserves because they are in the same contract. If he is referring to the contingency costs of deploying reserves on operations, there is a cost associated, but it is a cost that is paid for only when there are large-scale operations. The point about reservists—as the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) said, if I heard her correctly—is that it is very much cheaper most of the time to have part of the forces in reserves.

We have established the defence relationship management service, to which 42 of the 100 FTSE companies are now signed up. I have already mentioned the extra benefits for small and medium-sized enterprises. Crucially, we have set up an annual employer notification process, so that employers know a long way in advance when reservists are being called. That is crucial for retention, which so many Members referred to.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering set out the progress we have already made on the employer recognition scheme, which includes many NHS trusts. We are not in a position to dictate this, although I pay tribute to the Scottish Government, who run a more unified system and are able to dictate. Many hospital trusts have won employer awards. The Cabinet Secretary has the 1% challenge; we now have 1,250 civil servants serving in the reserves. These are at the heart of the retention issues. I cannot give the exact figures for medical reserve recruiting at the moment, but I can say that over the past 12 months the Army medical services, which are the bulk, have seen a considerable surge in numbers. I will write to my hon. Friend and to the other Members who raised that issue with some more detailed figures.

We have overcome a number of challenges that were affecting Army Reserve recruitment. We are making more imaginative use of advertising media, and we have hugely reduced the delays in the pipeline under the new system and provided better mentoring and support in units for those enlisting.

I thank all Members who took part in the debate and the many other Members who support their local units. Our reserves are stronger and better equipped than they have been for years. Despite the neglect, over the past 10 years, 70 reservists won decorations for gallantry in Afghanistan and Iraq, and 31 gave their lives. There is a great deal that we can be proud of in our reserve forces. We are making the reserves proposition that we set out in the 2013 White Paper a reality.

Defence Implementation Road Map

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset for his opening remarks. As he will gather, the Government share many of his concerns. It is regrettable that we are only now debating the Commission’s 2014 road map, which was first recommended for debate a year ago. However, I assure the Committee that we have taken full note of its earlier comments, and those of the Defence Committee, in our subsequent engagement.

The concerns raised by the Committee are still very much alive and worthy of debate. The Commission’s ambition, or at least that of some of the individuals in it, is clearly expansionary and requires constant management by us to protect and promote our national interests. That is at the heart of what we are trying to do. I welcome the opportunity this afternoon to set out how we are doing that in practice, including our objectives, progress and forthcoming challenges and opportunities.

Let me provide some background. As my hon. Friend said, the Commission implementation road map was published in June last year. It followed on from an earlier document from the previous year, to which he also referred. It was really that 2013 document, which the Committee debated in March 2014, that was the beginning of a push by the Commission into defence. It included more than 30 objectives that the Commission sought to pursue in the defence sector.

That 2013 communication featured at the December 2013 European Council and the Prime Minister made it very clear that the Commission should not own defence capabilities and spoke of the importance of NATO-EU co-operation, while recognising the central role of NATO to our defence. The principles were accepted by the wider European Council, as the Committee will know, and they remain absolutely pivotal for us today.

The main elements of the 2014 road map are contained in the explanatory memorandum and include: the intent to publish defence procurement directive guidance on the use of international organisations and the use of Government-to-Government sales; a road map on security of supply; a green paper on controls on defence assets; and preparatory action on defence research.

We believe that the document is some testament to our robust lobbying. Although there are certainly areas of concern in it, the overall approach recognises the importance of engaging closely with member states and other stakeholders such as the defence industry. As I said at the beginning, our national interest is at the heart of our negotiations in this area. In making the argument, let me address the Committee’s legitimate concern about the Commission’s having any involvement at all in the defence sector. That is a concern that I share—and indeed, in an earlier life, spoke about a number of times—particularly when it could imply creating a specific military role for the Commission or any action that has the potential to promote the EU at the expense of NATO, which some actors still seek to do.

In matters such as defence procurement and industrial policy, the Commission already has some internal market competence, but we will, of course, continue to defend the article 346 treaty exemption, including our right to act in accordance with our national security interests in the procurement area. Even with that, the risk remains of the Commission’s introducing proposals that are quite contrary to our broader interests, which is a threat that we will not ignore.

There is a wider point that Europe’s defence industry remains too fragmented and suffers from duplication and overcapacity. The Commission, working with member states, can have a role in removing some of the internal market barriers. We must continue to make the points that increasing defence expenditure across Europe, along with greater member state procurement co-operation and specialisation, are key to increasing our defence capability. UK-French co-operation and the work with Sweden on Gripen are examples, but that could be squandered if it is not supported by an efficient defence industry. Accordingly, the Government have worked continuously to shape Commission activity in order to protect our interests.

On Commission guidance on the defence procurement directive and Government-to-Government sales, we have led the debate, seeking to shape this towards a pragmatic clarification of the directive, rather than anything that could constrain our ability to procure defence capability, including, of course, from the US. Similarly, on the CSDP preparatory action, which has the potential to help stimulate the defence industry and bring new innovative capability to market, we have robustly engaged with the Commission to ensure that member states have the central role in decision making, and we would in no way support the Commission’s owning defence capability.

The results of the engagement were clear in the Commission’s most recent note on its activity in May. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe and I updated the Committee about that in July, as part of a wider update on the June Council. Thus, as a result of member state lobbying, action on supporting defence exports has been shelved, as has any immediate action on the controls on defence asset mergers and acquisitions.

However, EU action in support of defence small and medium-sized enterprises has been disappointing. It is clear that the EU needs to do more to provide practical assistance to SMEs in the sector. For example, we made the case strongly that the Commission must engage directly with SMEs to understand their challenges and where they can add value. The European Defence Agency is doing some work on that, such as guidance for SMEs on how to apply for EU funding, which I hope in time can be of practical benefit. In the UK we are also taking steps, for example, to level the playing field for SMEs by ensuring that we do not exclude them from competitions on the basis of rigid turnover-to-contract value ratios.

In summary, our engagement so far has been effective, but we must remain watchful. The June Council was a positive result for us in that the conclusions were kept strategic and high level. The EU focus is also at last on seeking to address the defence industry from a perspective of promoting growth, rather than via regulation. Our key partners such as Germany and France recognise the importance of member states taking the lead in those activities, with the Commission playing only a supporting role. However, threats remain. Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker recently wrote that a Commission 2016 priority was a new action plan on the defence industry, a document we expect some time in the new year.

Mindful of that, I stress that the Government will continue to shape EU action in accordance with our national interests, keeping NATO as the bedrock of our defence and ensuring that the EU plays a pragmatic, positive role and that sovereignty remains firmly in the hands of member states. In support of that, I welcome the opportunity to debate the subject, and I look forward to hearing the Committee’s observations.

[The Chair]

We now have until 3.35 pm for questions. At my discretion, I will allow supplementary questions.

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[Mr Brazier]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. We are not supporting EU industrial policy; we are supporting initiatives by the EDA to do what is sometimes called “speed dating” to encourage companies in different European countries to talk about how they can work together to reduce the massive overcapacity in the European defence industry and to get better value for money. To expand that answer slightly, one of our specific contributions has been to persuade countries to look at cross-purchase, or reciprocal purchase, as well as at several nations collaborating, because that is often a cheaper and more effective way of getting good value for defence.

[Mr Jenkin]

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. May I remind him that in the 2010 Conservative manifesto we were going to pull out of the European Defence Agency? Then, under the coalition, we were told that we could not pull out of the EDA because we were in coalition. Now we are not in coalition, but we are still participating in the EDA. Why have we changed our policy?

[Mr Brazier]

We regularly review our membership of the EDA. The most recent study took place after I became a Minister. It is a relatively small budget and a simple tactical choice. In fact, one EU country chooses not to participate: Denmark. The choice is entirely pragmatic. At the moment, the small budget spent offers value for money, we feel, because in a number of areas we can see that savings are provided. The EU is not a competitor with NATO, at least not as we are formulating it, but having the EU as a forum where we can discuss participation in various collaborative projects—my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset mentioned collaboration—intellectual property rights, dual use and so on, provides good value in some areas. We do not have an ideological commitment to remain a member, but an independent study has looked at it in the past 12 months and we believe it offers good value for money.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Is it too suspicious to think that what the European Commission is trying to do is to set the groundwork for the common European army that it has been talking about in other contexts, and that procurement is, because of the over-supply, a relatively easy first step to push into?

[Mr Brazier]

There is no question of this country ever agreeing to be part of a European army. There is absolutely no question of that. From time to time, we have taken part in successful EU military ventures—mostly small-scale—in which, for one reason or another, NATO has chosen not to operate. At Northwood, which I visited several times before I was a Minister, we have the headquarters of the EU’s anti-piracy effort, for example, which has been extremely successful. There is no question of a European army, navy or air force.

Procurement is an area where there is scope for savings. We have massive overcapacity in the European defence industry, so it is in our interest to find ways of reducing it.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he say how much of that overcapacity might be used up if other NATO members managed to meet their 2% of GDP spending target, and whether that might not be part of the solution, rather than having an internal market for defence?

[Mr Brazier]

I am not quite clear why my hon. Friend is making a contrast here. This country is absolutely clear: we believe that every NATO member should spend 2% of GDP on defence. Of course, not all NATO members are in the EU and not all EU members are in NATO. We have set an example and we are one of the five NATO countries that spend 2% of GDP and are firmly committed to that. I do not see why that is somehow an alternative to the view that, at a time when, first, we have massive overcapacity in the European defence industry and, secondly, we have some of the best and most competitive defence operators in this country—in fact, the second biggest defence industry in the free world after America—we should, subject to the carefully ring-fenced areas of our security, have an internal market here and encourage more competition. That seems to me self-evident. Our defence industry is likely to benefit and it offers better value for money in western arms purchases.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

But if we are to have an internal market, does that not begin to bring in the single market rules? It may well be in the interests of this nation to support an uneconomic defence manufacturing industry because of the need for certainty of supply at a time of war which may be unpredictable. I seem to remember that during the first Gulf war, Belgium would not supply bullets—

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is as helpful as ever. Belgium would not provide hand grenades to British forces. Can we really risk being in a situation where these decisions are in any way constrained?

[Mr Brazier]

Nobody has ever challenged the British Government. I understand there has never been a court case in which we have sought article 346 protection for a decision on defence procurement—not once. Article 346 is our protection on that. From memory—it was a long time ago and I do not want to frighten my officials—it was shells that Belgium would not provide, not hand grenades. However, in any area where we feel that security of supply is essential—shipbuilding is one such area—we can claim article 346 protection. As I said, it is fairly rare that article 346 claims have been challenged for any country, and no one has ever tried that when Britain does it. I have one last background point: article 346 today covers roughly 10% of all our defence procurement spending, so it is not a trivial, peripheral, last-resort thing.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful to be under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Hanson. I want to take up the point about shipbuilding, because I represent a constituency that no longer has shipbuilding because of a closed UK market. Shipbuilding in my constituency has been annihilated in the past 40 years. What we have seen in the past couple of weeks is the German Government picking up our inability to take on capacity by assisting the Royal Navy. I am sure that the Minister will have something to say about that.

[Mr Brazier]

I am sorry: I did not understand the last part of the hon. Gentleman’s question. He is concerned about the structure of the shipping market, but I did not understand his point about Germany. Could he repeat it please?

[Martin John Docherty]

My point is that Germany has recently been helping the United Kingdom in terms of its naval production because we do not have the capacity to meet our own need.

[Mr Brazier]

This Government have freed up the funds to pay for a very substantial naval programme. We have a large-scale submarine programme and large-scale frigate programme. I myself visited—it is a little way away from the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but by Scottish standards not that far—the Queen Elizabeth just before the Queen came to launch her; we have the Prince of Wales being built, too, and we have an offshore patrol vessel programme. This Government, by taking some extremely painful decisions on manpower, have ensured that we are able to afford a modern, huge, £160 billion equipment programme, of which warship building forms a very large part.

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful for the Minister’s answer, but that is only one part of the equation, because what the Germans are doing is helping us with our refuelling tankers. It does not answer the question about our inability to fill our own capacity. The Minister has not answered that question.

[Mr Brazier]

I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman wants me to say. Before I came into the House, I worked as a management consultant, and some of our clients were famous names, such as Swan Hunter, which no longer exists, except in the history books—it was not entirely my fault. The reality is that shipbuilding did not just go through a recession and a depression. The hon. Gentleman knows that all over the world, world-class shipbuilding facilities closed, and most of the shipbuilding in Europe was lost in the course of 30 or 40 years under Governments of all descriptions. Swan Hunter, 30 years ago, was a major producer of warships and had a strong tradition of producing merchant ships, but it does not exist any longer south of the border, so perhaps it is not among the hon. Gentleman’s interests. The fact is that we lost a lot of shipbuilding capacity. The way in which we ensure that we maintain the shipbuilding capacity that we still have is by having an active shipbuilding programme, and that is exactly what this Government are funding.

[Martin John Docherty]

rose—

[Martin John Docherty]

I am sorry, Mr Hanson, but of course I disagree with the Minister on this point. The point about the co-operation with Germany is that it is allowing us to meet our need. That needs to be recognised and we need to build on that partnership. The European Union, in any aspect of defence, is not a threat. My constituents are very clear on that. The biggest threat to our co-operation on defence with allies is the possible Brit exit next year.

[Mr Brazier]

I think that the hon. Gentleman is over-egging his point. The EU offers some valuable opportunities for us to deal with other countries, and I mentioned the anti-piracy patrol as an example. The EDA has produced a number of joint projects on issues such as certification, airworthiness, helicopter training and so on, which have freed up money. There is also a small element of dual-use research, which is of real value. However, to suggest somehow or other that the EU is the cornerstone of our defence, when it is manifestly obvious that it is NATO, seems very strange.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I was under the impression that in the Gulf war, the Belgians did not supply us with 9 mm ammunition for submachine guns, not artillery shells—but whatever it was, they certainly did not provide one of those things. May I ask my friend the Minister whether this EDA strategy is going to end up with a possible attack on sovereign capability among SMEs, for instance?

[Mr Brazier]

I am most grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend—he is a good friend—for his question, to which the answer is no, it is not. All that is happening here is an attempt to get better value out of a defence industry that is completely out of scale with the amount of defence purchasing going on. We are helping by guaranteeing 2% and encouraging other people to meet NATO’s 2% target, and we have one or two countries such as Sweden that are not in NATO that are relatively large defence spenders for their size, but the fact is that British industry is offered more opportunities if people are willing to have a more open market in this field.

We are the one country that is really speaking up for SMEs—I say that having done it a couple of times in the European Council. I hesitate to go back to an earlier life and some of the things that I used to write about them before I was even elected to this place, but the fact is that SMEs have a huge role to play in defence. They often have very innovative ideas and different ways of doing things that can offer a great deal for our armed forces. It is no secret that sometimes—sadly—they are seen by prime contractors as a threat to their supply chain, which inevitably, they have a temptation to place cosily with their own subsidiaries. SMEs are extremely important. We as a Government are supporting them, and we are the country that is pushing them hardest in Europe.

[Bob Stewart]

I have a follow-up question. I do not quite get it. Hon. Friends have already raised the matter of the EDA versus us. Surely it is the Ministry of Defence that decides. We have been spending ages and ages looking at the way procurement is done in this country to our advantage. I am slightly concerned that suddenly we will have some EDA strategy that directs us in a different way that runs counter to the way the Minister and his fellow Ministers want to deal with it. That is a worry that I have had and continue to have.

[Mr Brazier]

May I just set my hon. and gallant Friend’s mind at rest? There are a number of risks from the Commission, as I have set out, and we are looking forward to seeing the new document that comes out of the Commission after Christmas, but the EDA is not a threat. It is a low-budget organisation, which, in the words of its last director, is basically a speed-dating agency. It enables European countries that are interested in a particular area to sit together, discuss things and find ways of saving money. I mentioned helicopter training as an example. It is not a threat in the way that he describes. There are some threats potentially coming out of the Commission, although I do not think they are as bad as they were a year or two ago, and I outlined some of them in my speech, but I assure my hon. and gallant Friend that that is not one of them.

[Mr Spellar]

May I take the Minister back to shipbuilding? Will he tell us what naval shipbuilding capacity there still is in France, Germany and Spain, which are all exporting to a number of other countries? I am not sure about Italy. Germany and Italy also have major civilian capacity in building cruise ships. What are the Government doing, apart from buying ships from South Korea, to help that position?

[Mr Brazier]

What we are doing about it is that we have the largest set of naval shipbuilding orders placed of any European country. Each of the major European countries chooses, as we do, to place all its warship orders with its domestic market. Merchant shipbuilding capacity in this country and all its major features had disappeared long before the coalition Government took office—little of it was left in 2010, let alone 2015—but the reality is that we are placing a whole series of very large orders for naval shipbuilding.

[Mr Spellar]

Was it not the case that with the vessels referred to on the civil side an offer was in fact made by an Italian company to undertake the design work, with the build in UK yards, but that offer was spurned by Ministry of Defence officials?

[Mr Brazier]

I will have to write to the right hon. Gentleman unless—[Interruption.] Ah, I have a note coming, so I shall respond to him in a little while.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I want to come back to what I was asking about before. I absolutely accept the Minister’s argument about article 346, which is extremely important. My concern is that if we involve the EU in helpful restructuring of the defence industry, rather than leaving it as a domestic competence, the EU is then getting access to an area from which it has previously been kept out but that is within its normal areas of competence. That extends to the discussions of whether exports should be looked at by the European Union, which the Defence Committee and the Government rejected, but is being proposed—

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

It is a question, Mr Hanson. Sorry, it was quite a long question.

[Mr Brazier]

I will answer both questions—I am now in a position to answer the question but by the right hon. Member for Warley. The short answer is that the Italian offer was too expensive. There is always that decision to make. In placing defence orders, we sometimes buy abroad, but those for core warships are always placed in this country, as they always have been by all Governments, whether Conservative, Labour or coalition. In that case, it was simply too expensive.

In answer to my hon. Friend, I absolutely understand his point, but I assure him that that is not a risk. Let me say that again: nobody—repeat, nobody—is giving the European Commission any kind of competence in the area. What we have agreed to is voluntary—it is a voluntary agreement, of which Denmark has chosen not to be part—and that is to be part of the EDA, which offers speed-dating opportunities that can assist the market in clearing up overcapacity. So it will help bring together companies that can work together usefully to save money, sometimes to agree reciprocal purchase—“We’ll buy some of that from you, rather than developing it ourselves, if you buy this from us,” and so on. It is speed dating through the EDA and not the Commission developing any kind of Commission competence, a subject on which I entirely agree with him.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Therefore, that is entirely intergovernmental, and the institutions of the European Union, such as the Court of Justice and the Commission, are not involved. Is that correct?

[Mr Brazier]

The EDA is an intergovernmental agreement. Denmark is not a member, although Denmark is a member of the EU. I tried to make it clear from the beginning of my speech that the Government’s policy is to stop the Commission from expanding its competencies. From time to time we review our membership of the EDA; it has a small budget, which is doing useful work in a number of areas. It has saved us money—I mentioned two or three of the areas where it has done so—but we are not allowing the Commission to develop an industrial or a defence industrial policy for Europe. We have no intention of doing so.

[Mr Jenkin]

It is interesting how much assertion and denial has to be done to explain why it is in our interest to be involved with this at all, but I commend my hon. Friend for starving the EDA of the cash that it craves. Other member states would willingly vote for that, but we use our veto to prevent it, which certainly keeps things in check to a degree. However, will he clarify why, when every strategic defence review from 1998 onwards described, as he just did, NATO as the cornerstone of our defence, the 2010 SDSR did not?

[Mr Brazier]

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind comments on my exercise of the veto last year. My noble Friend Earl Howe is going over to do that next week. The short answer to my hon. Friend’s question is that I do not know. I congratulate him on his observation, and I would be surprised if NATO was not pretty central to the next SDSR.

[Mr Jenkin]

I am most grateful for that assurance. Rather than repeating what the 2010 review said—it referred to

“our status as a permanent member of the UN Security Council and a leading member of NATO, the EU and other international organisations”,

as though NATO and the EU were pari passu with each other—may I suggest to the Minister that we include the words, “NATO is the cornerstone of our defence” in the 2015 SDSR?

[The Chair]

Order. Before the Minister answers, I remind the Committee that we are dealing with European document No. 11358/14, “A New Deal for European Defence”. Although matters relating to 2010 may have relevance to the wider debate, the focus of questions should be on that document.

[Mr Brazier]

Thank you, Mr Hanson. I shall relay my hon. Friend’s suggestion immediately back to my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State.

[Martin John Docherty]

I do not know about anyone else, but I never thought I would hear a Committee talk about speed-dating and defence, but there is a first time for everything. Going back to the EDA and the document, the Defence Committee sees the EDA as

“pragmatic, cost-effective and results-orientated”.

As a matter of fact, in terms of national security and the national agenda, nations such as Norway are members of the EDA and not part of the European Union. I do not see why this last hurrah of the empire seems to be so problematic for the Minister.

[The Chair]

I will take that to be a question. Do you wish to answer, Mr Brazier?

[Mr Brazier]

I do not think I have got an answer for that beyond saying that I and the Government share the concerns of some on this Committee, as I made absolutely clear in my opening remarks, that there may be an attempt by the Commission to extend its competencies. We have resisted that at every stage, and may have to do so again shortly after Christmas. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the EDA. It has produced a series of good ideas for small-scale savings which offer a good return on money. It is not a threat.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am sorry to belabour the point, but in the document, “Report from the Commission to the European Parliament, the Council, the European Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions, A New Deal for European Defence”, the introduction sets out that the ambition is

“an Internal Market for Defence”.

That is what I am so concerned about, and I hope that the Government are clearly rejecting that. The thing about European exceptions is that they cease to be useable if they are not enforced the whole time. I may give examples of that in a speech later.

[Mr Brazier]

I do not think I can add a great deal to what I have already said. We support the internal market. This is not an industrial policy; it is about pushing back trade barriers. The Government support that and see it as an extremely positive thing for us and our fellow countries in Europe. We are quite clear that we have this exemption for defence, and we have deployed it a number of times. It covers roughly 10% of our defence procurement effort, and we have never once been challenged on it. Competitors are normally the ones who would make a challenge, and no one has ever tried to challenge Her Majesty’s Government’s exercising of their rights on that.

[Bob Stewart]

I am looking at the document, which states:

“The Council reiterates its call to retain and further develop military capabilities for sustaining and enhancing CSDP. They underpin the EU’s ability to act as a security provider”—

the EU’s ability to act as a security provider—

“in the context of a wider comprehensive approach”

and

“the need for a strong and less fragmented European defence industry to sustain and enhance Europe’s military capabilities and”—

this is key—

“the EU’s…autonomous action”,

presumably in this respect. I question whether this is yet another move towards an EU defence capacity.

[Mr Brazier]

I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend, but I can only repeat what I said earlier. The EU provides collective defence capability in a small number of niche areas where NATO has chosen not to. I have mentioned several times, because it is of particular national interest to us as a country that still has a significant merchant fleet, the joint EU action off the horn of Africa, which has been a triumph—piracy there has virtually stopped. It is run from Northwood by the British, although, I am sorry to say, we have not had much in the way of naval vessels in it in the past year or two. The French-led operation in Mali is another such example. I thought that the willingness of EU countries to get together occasionally and tackle issues that NATO, for one reason or another, chooses not to was relatively uncontroversial.

The first half of my hon. and gallant Friend’s quote on Europe’s defence capability is true. The industries are in the individual countries and the policy remains a member state matter. We have made it absolutely clear—I do not think I could have made it clearer—that we have resisted successfully every attempt by the Commission to try to dictate to us in this area.

[Mr Jenkin]

Will my hon. Friend clarify whether section 2 provisions of the treaty on European Union are justiciable by the European Court of Justice inasmuch as they affect defence and the European Defence Agency?

[Mr Brazier]

I will have to wait for official advice on that. I will return to it during the debate.

[The Chair]

We will have an opportunity during the debate to include that should we so wish. Does any other Member want to ask a question?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Brazier]

I hear what my hon. Friend says and I will come back to him later on his detailed points. I can only remind him that article 346, which is justiciable in the European Court of Justice—there have been a number of cases, although I believe there has not been a recent one—is something we have never been challenged on. It is, to put it mildly, something we would take a very tough line on if we ever were.

[Martin John Docherty]

I draw Members’ attention to page 71 of the documentation, which contains a letter from the Minister to the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). It stipulates that

“as part of EU-NATO co-operation”—

I hope that Members take note—

“hybrid and strategic communications were prioritised, as part of an overall response to Russia and threats in the wider EU neighbourhood”.

I am sure the Minister agrees that the EDA’s programme and possible engagement in that process was more than welcome then, and I am sure Members will agree more than welcome in future. It is not a threat to our national security.

[Mr Brazier]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He is right. There is a wider point, and I urge some of my colleagues, even those who are—I entirely respect their point of view—profoundly opposed to everything that comes out of Brussels, just to think about this one point. The issue with the Russians and Ukraine has to be seen on a whole spectrum, from the hard end right through to the soft end. NATO does not do things such as economic sanctions, so there are areas where we have to talk to our fellow members of the EU if we want action, and I have participated in some of those discussions. There is room for discussing issues that are on the edges of debate but outside the main NATO remit in a European context.

[The Chair]

If there are no further questions from hon. Members, we will proceed to the main debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 11358/14, a Commission Report: A New Deal for European Defence: Implementation Roadmap for Communication COM(2013)542: Towards a more competitive and efficient defence and security sector; agrees that any further development of the Commission’s proposals in the defence sector must be in close cooperation with EU Member States; and shares the Government’s view that the focus for any Commission action should be on improving competitiveness and economic growth, while avoiding any activity that could constrain the UK’s ability to obtain the best capability for its Armed Forces, conflict with NATO, or otherwise impinge upon the UK’s national security interests.—(Mr Brazier.)

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Brazier]

I agree with quite a lot of what the hon. Gentleman is saying. It will not surprise him that we share concerns, and I hope I made it clear that we are heading off many of them. However, on the issue he just raised, I am puzzled about his reasoning. I cannot see anything that would enable that. Can he explain what he means?

[Mr Jones]

It is not clear from the document. However, if we are saying that there has got to be security of supply for a certain piece of technology, we would have to ensure that widget A is available to all European nations. If widget A contains technology that is procured from a third country with which we have a partnership, will we, because we are part of this process, have to export it or send it to a third country in Europe that needs it? That is the danger. At the moment, we have a choice about whether we do that, based on the relationship we entered into in the first place. As the Minister knows, we have certain technologies that we would not export, even to some of our allies in Europe. That is my concern.

[Mr Brazier]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this matter. The short answer is no, we would not agree to that. Nothing that we are agreeing to could ever put us in that position.

[Mr Jones]

The other point I would like to touch on is the reference to third markets and the idea that the European Commission has a role in promoting defence exports. It is very strange that the document again misses the entire point when it says:

“With defence budgets shrinking in Europe in recent years, exports to third markets have become increasingly important for European industry to compensate for reduced demand on home markets.”

It completely ignores the fact that it is not that the defence industry cannot produce. It does not question the fact that many countries do not meet the NATO 2% and that budgets have continued to be cut across Europe. I am concerned about the idea that the Commission has a role in exporting to third markets. The Commission is living in a fantasy world if it is trying to suggest that this will put a brake on the bargaining between, for example, French and UK defence exporters, and that one would export something and the other would not.

Look at the current competition for fast jets in the middle east and elsewhere. It is not the case that the French are not acting in their national self-interest, as they always do. What is being said here, and why does the Commission want to get involved in something it does not need to? Is it trying to create a level playing field, and will the inducements and other things that are put forward not be allowable to ensure that two European nations competing for a defence contract in the middle east, for example, do so on the same basis? I do not think that is the Commission’s role, and, frankly, if that is what is being suggested, it would be very difficult to implement.

The other side to that, which is also completely missed, is that purchaser nations increasingly require and want some development of technologies within their country as part of defence and export contracts, which is only right. That takes me to my final point, which is that I do not accept that offsets are a bad thing. If a sovereign nation is to procure equipment from overseas or another competitor, it is quite right that it should be able to demand some offset for taxpayers’ money either being spent in their country or benefiting the home nation.

In conclusion, I worry about the document, because it has clearly taken the time of many a Brussels bureaucrat to draw it up, but to what end? It would be strange if we ever saw the French open up their defence markets to true competition. There is no evidence for that, and it just will not happen. The Opposition support such operations in terms of co-operation across Europe, but we need to be wary about the Commission getting into areas in which it should not be, and about our defence industry, which has been good at adapting and changing over the past few years, being put at a disadvantage. There would be nothing to gain in both jobs and technology. The important thing that we must always bear in mind is that the equipment and kit that we provide to our armed forces is not only fit for purpose, but the best available.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jenkin]

I am very grateful for that information and I am sure the Committee is, too. I was about to say that this is the first occasion, apart from a Government statement after the 2013 Council of Ministers meeting, that we have debated the 2013 conclusions in any depth. That underlines a serious state of affairs.

[Mr Brazier]

I remind my hon. Friend that I started with an apology for the tardiness of the debate. To answer his earlier question, it is true that the EDA does operate, as he suggested, on a qualified majority vote basis. In matters that are deemed to be important for national sovereignty, however, any member can escalate the matter up to the Council of Ministers, where it must be agreed by unanimity. The practical effect is therefore not as he imagines.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Brazier]

We have had an exceptionally thoughtful debate. If I am honest, very little has been said that I did not agree with. I will start with the comments of the hon. Member for North Durham, who I have known for many years in the House of Commons. I agree with most of what he said. I reassure him that we are never going to be compelled to sell secret technology, which was one thing he raised. Clearly, if we have developed it collaboratively, there may be an issue of stopping the other partner who owns it, but we will not be forced to release our own secrets. Security of supply is never going to be laid down by the European Commission. I remind the hon. Gentleman and one or two of my hon. Friends that the 2% commitment, which I strongly support—it is a matter of record that I gave up my position as a junior Government Parliamentary Private Secretary many years ago over defence cuts, which created absolutely no interest out in the wider world at all—is a NATO standard to which five NATO countries adhere. It is not an EU matter. Also, there is no Commission role on exports. We are not going to give way on that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex made a typically, if I may say so, extremely well researched and thorough speech. He knows perfectly well that I share some of his concerns. Indeed, I made it clear in my speech that the Government have had to repeatedly fight against a number of the threats he mentioned. We were the country that insisted the Secretary-General of NATO was invited to the European Council in December 2013. He also came to the Council’s discussion of defence in June this year. He has also been invited by Federica Mogherini to the EDA. We are not alone in this, but we as a country are absolutely determined not only that NATO should have primacy on defence, but that, when European countries get together to discuss defence, it should be seen as a complement to the European position rather than a competitor.

My hon. Friend raised the spectre of the Commission curtailing or interfering with our procurement relationships in a way that would never be acceptable to this Government. We will not accept curtailment of our ability to procure the best kit for our armed forces—I am reading that straight out of my “lines to take”, to reassure my hon. Friend that it is not just the Minister saying something off the hoof. We are not going to give way on that, and we have had to fight off a number of threats, as I made clear earlier. We are not going to give way on article 346 and have not been challenged on upholding it.

The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire made a number of points. He made one strong point: when we are faced with hybrid warfare, as we are with the Russians, we have to be clear that NATO does not pretend to cover the full spectrum. It does not do so, and it is as simple as that. It covers a large part of the spectrum but does not cover all of it, and economic sanctions are not something that NATO wants to lead on. There is a role for the EU in supporting NATO. I was there for some of the discussions on Ukraine, and we were clear that that is what the EU was supposed to be doing.

I know the hon. Gentleman to be a thoughtful Member, and we have sat opposite each other a number of times, but I do not think he will find much agreement on some of the other parts of his speech. We all agree that the maritime patrol aircraft leaves a gap. We had to take some agonising decisions in 2010. We are just about to announce a new SDSR, and it is above my pay grade to comment further. I have not seen the document yet, but I can say that we are very much aware of the issues he raises.

I am afraid I find the hon. Gentleman’s position on NATO and nuclear weapons completely unintelligible. NATO was set up to defend the west against the threat from the Soviet Union after America and Britain’s possession of nuclear weapons had bought us a time interval to make it possible. Had we not had nuclear weapons then, there is a pretty fair chance that our exhausted Army and an American public who already felt they had done enough would have fallen foul of the massive might of the Soviet Union. A clear availability of nuclear weapons bought the time to enable NATO to be established, and it has been a nuclear alliance ever since. For the hon. Gentleman to suggest in one breath that his party is in favour of NATO and in another that it strongly remains opposed to nuclear weapons—

[The Chair]

Order. I appreciate that the Minister is responding to the debate, but the aftermath of the second world war and the development of nuclear weapons are not part of the document before us today.

[Mr Brazier]

I accept your rebuke, Mr Hanson. I was led astray.

I share many of the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset. He made some strong points about the Commission’s agenda, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex. We are clear that there is and has been an agenda. We will go carefully through the document that we are promised is just a few weeks’ away to see what is in there. We think that the agenda is probably not as strong as it was a year or two ago. It certainly is not as strong among the member states that were supporting the Commission earlier. I find the atmosphere among a large number of member states to be remarkably pro our agenda, but there is a danger, and I will not conceal it, and nor does the motion. I ask my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset to give us the benefit of the doubt. We are determined to resist those elements of the agenda that threaten our national sovereignty in defence.

My principal point remains that our engagement in this area is firmly shaped by what is and is not in our national interests. We will continue to engage robustly with the Commission to protect and promote our interests, working directly with the Commission and/or our international partners as appropriate. Our interests rest in a more open and competitive defence market that respects our legitimate national security interests, and the Commission can help in delivering that.

A more efficient defence industry in Europe is fundamental to delivering capabilities to our armed forces for better value for money, while also promoting economic growth. I gave a number of examples of small areas where we have achieved significant savings as a result of our participation. The UK defence industry is particularly well placed to take advantage of a more open market—several Members have paid tribute to the strength of the UK defence sector—that is more global and increasingly connected to the dual-use sector.

We must, however, avoid action that seeks to protect the defence industry in Europe from the wider global market. I agree with the remarks about the Americans and how we must never allow people to shut out the Americans, of which there was a hint. There is no European defence industry as such. Instead, we have one that is local, national and global. We need to avoid policies or regulations that seek to create such an unnatural European identity when it does not exist in reality.

The elements of our national interest are set out in the detail of the motion. We will seek to ensure that any Commission activity is undertaken only in close association with ourselves and other member states. We will make the case that the Commission’s focus must be on those activities that support the competitiveness of the defence industry and promote wider growth. That is in our favour, because we have a strong, healthy defence industry. We will not allow actions that interfere, constrain or otherwise limit our ability to procure the best capability for our armed forces. We will not support any action that seeks to undermine NATO or the transatlantic relationship, which are the cornerstone of our defence. We will not support actions that seek to isolate the EU defence market from an increasingly global market, except where security is at stake. That is an important balance.

There are some opportunities in the EU, and I mentioned a few of them, but we must remain vigilant to those who would undermine our wider security and economic interests. I urge one or two of my colleagues—I know that they have thought long and hard on this matter and that they are very good friends of the armed forces—to look at the motion on its merits and at what we are discussing today, rather than considering the motion against a background of much wider debate on the EU and allowing considerations that have nothing to do with the motion to sway them. I urge the Committee to support the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 11358/14, a Commission Report: A New Deal for European Defence: Implementation Roadmap for Communication COM(2013)542: Towards a more competitive and efficient defence and security sector; agrees that any further development of the Commission’s proposals in the defence sector must be in close cooperation with EU Member States; and shares the Government’s view that the focus for any Commission action should be on improving competitiveness and economic growth, while avoiding any activity that could constrain the UK’s ability to obtain the best capability for its Armed Forces, conflict with NATO, or otherwise impinge upon the UK’s national security interests.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

12. What steps he is taking to increase the number of cadet units in schools.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

Cadet forces offer young people the chance to develop character and essential skills in units based in schools and in the community. The coalition Government funded 100 extra units in schools, and this Government have committed an extra £50 million to increase the number by about 145, which will bring the total number in the United Kingdom to 500 by 2020.

[Will Quince]

I was fortunate enough to go to a state comprehensive school which was linked to an Army cadet unit. What plans has my hon. Friend to ensure that more pupils from state comprehensive schools have the opportunity to join the cadets?

[Mr Brazier]

Those 145 extra units will all be in state schools. One of the new school cadet forces that we have formed is in north-east England and started against a very difficult background, but it is now so successful that pupils are required to show that they have completed a full year of good attendance and good behaviour before they can join it.

[Mike Wood]

As a former flight sergeant in a combined cadet force, I have benefited from the advantages provided by cadet forces in state schools that the Minister has described. Will the Minister join me on a visit to Brierley Hill Squadron’s air training corps in Brockmoor to see the excellent work that is being done with young people from a range of backgrounds?

[Mr Brazier]

I am most envious of my hon. Friend: I am afraid that I only made lance corporal in the CCF. His invitation is very tempting. I will be making a number of visits to CCFs—indeed, I was with the sea cadets yesterday, Trafalgar day, in Trafalgar Square —but I cannot promise an immediate visit to his constituency.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

Lieutenant Commander Graham Townsend, RNR, has overseen a fivefold increase in the number of people attending Stafford and Rugeley sea cadets, and the Army and air cadets in Staffordshire are also thriving. May I urge my hon. Friend to ensure that the experience gained from those existing units is spread to the new units, which I welcome?

[Mr Brazier]

My hon. Friend has made an excellent point. There are four community units in my constituency, as well as two CCFs, and another is being formed under the new programme. One of our key criteria for the new units is that they must not clash with existing successful community units. Some of the new units that we are setting up in schools are in the community rather than the CCF programme.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I am keen for as many young people as possible from as many different backgrounds as possible to have an opportunity to join the new cadet forces in their schools. What is the Minister’s estimate of the number of young people eligible for free school meals, or from black and ethnic minority communities, who will join the new groups?

[Mr Brazier]

That is a very good question. The short answer is that we are focusing the 145 new units in areas where there is the most deprivation and the least opportunity to join existing successful community units.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

May I begin by making two declarations of interests? First, my wife is a national trustee of the Sea Cadets, as was the Minister. Secondly, I am honorary president of air cadet unit 31 at Mile End.

As the Minister knows, his presence at Trafalgar Square yesterday was very welcome and very well received. Can he assure us that the Ministry of Defence will support cadet units that are not necessarily attached to schools, but are general units consisting of local people?

[Mr Brazier]

I thank my dear friend opposite—I am not allowed to call him my hon. Friend—for his kind words. I was very pleased to meet his air cadets on the Terrace of the House of Commons with him last year. The answer to his question is very firmly yes. We support cadets both in communities and in schools, and the new programme will be designed to be complementary, filling in gaps rather than competing with existing community arrangements.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Given that the community cadet forces enable young people, particularly those from disadvantaged communities, to gain confidence and skills that they might not otherwise have a chance to gain, what assurances can the Minister give that the cadet expansion initiative will not disproportionately benefit school cadet forces at the expense of community cadet forces?

[Mr Brazier]

I welcome the hon. Lady to her place as shadow Minister and thank her for the support for cadet units. I am delighted to give her the assurance she seeks. The new units will be set up in areas where there is no existing community provision. They will not be in competition with existing successful community units.

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the UK contribution to international efforts to degrade and defeat ISIL.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steven Paterson (Stirling) (SNP)]

T10. What steps have been taken to change section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998 to allow Scotland to legislate for fatal accident inquiries involving service personnel?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

rose—

[Penny Mordaunt]

Such issues are the responsibility of the Government of the United Kingdom, and I would expect to lead on those service inquiries. I will, however, ask the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who has responsibility for that matter, to write with further details to the hon. Gentleman.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

I was recently appointed president of the 1206 Mercian air cadet squadron. Will my hon. Friend let me and, more to the point, the air cadets know what further opportunities there might be for them to obtain flying experience with the Royal Air Force?

[Mr Brazier]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his position. We are extremely keen to improve opportunities for flying. We currently have a recovery programme, following the temporary suspension of the gliding programme. I share his enthusiasm, as I too have an air cadet force in my constituency.

[Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife) (SNP)]

An article in the Washington Post said that the F-35s are not yet ready for “real-world operational deployments”. Is the Minister supremely confident that the F-35s will be ready to be fully deployed on the first carrier that leaves Rosyth?

Oral Answers to Questions

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Monday 13th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)]

15. What steps he is taking to ensure that reserve forces are at full strength.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

Six thousand, eight hundred and ten personnel joined the reserve forces in the last financial year, an increase of 65% on the year before. We have made significant improvements to recruiting processes, the offer to reservists and the support we give employers. As a result, recruitment continues to improve, and we remain committed to meeting our overall target.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I congratulate the Minister not only on the fantastic decision to spend 2% of GDP on our armed forces but on his decision to save William Coltman House, the Army reservist centre in Burton. Will he join me in commending Major Marvin Bargrove and everybody else involved for their work in increasing recruitment and showing people in Burton the opportunities that are available through being part of our reservist force?

[Mr Brazier]

I share my hon. Friend’s delight both at the announcement of the 2% commitment and at the fact that we have been able to save the centre in Burton. He will be aware that 4 Mercian, which has a detachment there, has recently been deployed in a number of interesting exercises, as well as providing two formed platoons for an operational deployment in Cyprus.

[David Morris]

What progress has the Department made in getting employers to recognise the benefits of their employees becoming reservists, and of hiring reservists?

[Mr Brazier]

This year, we have already awarded 160 new bronze awards and 25 new silver awards for employers. We are also building links between companies in industry sectors and their equivalent reserves. For example, the Royal Signals is formalising links with BT, Vodafone, HP and Virgin Media; Defence Medical Services has an excellent arrangement with the NHS; and the Military Provost Service is partnering with Serco.

[Mr Nigel Evans]

I, too, welcome the 2% commitment, which will ensure that the right level of reserves will be reached.

Does the Minister agree that it is absolutely right that reservists who see action get the right equipment to protect them, which would include the use of drones manufactured by some of my constituents at BAE Systems?

[Mr Brazier]

The 2% commitment enables us to reconfirm the additional £1.8 billion for the reserves. All reservists today are routinely supplied with the same uniform and personal equipment as their regular counterparts, and last year we were able to bring forward earlier than expected £45 million of investment for dismounted close combat equipment. I am afraid that it is above my pay grade to answer my hon. Friend’s question about drones.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has said today that he wants an increase in the number of special forces. Given our armed forces’ greater reliance on reservists, what are the Minister and the Government doing to ensure that we still have a good pool from which to pick our special forces?

[Mr Brazier]

As a former Defence Minister, the hon. Gentleman will know that Ministers of the Crown never talk about special forces in the Chamber. On his wider point about the size of the pool in the armed forces as a whole, our commitment, as shown most recently by the 2% announcement, is to outstanding armed forces in quality and equipment.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

I understand that the coroner is due to give his judgment shortly, possibly tomorrow, in the case of the reservists who died in the Brecon Beacons. Will the Minister undertake to come to the House and make a statement following that judgment?

[Mr Brazier]

We will have to wait for tomorrow’s judgment before making a decision on that.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Two weeks ago the Secretary of State said that he was confident that the Government’s target for reserve recruitment would be met. He said that the programme was “now back on schedule”. However, last month the Major Projects Authority downgraded the Future Reserves 2020 project from “doubtful” to “unachievable”. Who is right, the Major Projects Authority or the Secretary of State?

[Mr Brazier]

The Major Projects Authority reviewed the Future Reserves 2020 programme almost a year ago, in September 2014. By convention the review is published six months behind, and because of purdah and the election it was published something like 10 months behind. A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since then.

[Mr Jones]

Indeed. Last week’s Budget Red Book committed the Government to maintaining a Regular Army of 82,000, but there was no mention of reserve forces. Can the Minister confirm whether the target of 30,000 reservists announced at the beginning of the process will be met?

[Mr Brazier]

The target of 30,000 Army reservists—indeed, 35,000 trained reservists across the three services—was firmly in the Conservative party’s manifesto, and this Conservative Government are committed to delivering it.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I warmly welcome the maintenance of that target, and I congratulate the Minister on what has been achieved so far. He will recall that the purpose of the target was to enable the reserve and regular forces to be interoperable—change backwards and forwards between each other. A reserve force was to do precisely the same job as the regulars who, in the case of the Army, we were then cutting by 20,000. Will he confirm that the excellent plan that he laid out before the last election—and which has been laid out consistently in the House since—will remain? Will there be any change in that way that we use reserves?

[Mr Brazier]

As my hon. Friend knows, the Government do not accept that the expansion of the reserves was a direct swap with regulars in the way that he describes. The purposes of the reserve forces were set out in the commission—which, as he says, carried my signature—and were threefold: to provide extra capacity at slightly lower readiness; to provide skills not available to the military; and to rebuild the connection between the military and society. We are committed to all those things, and the commitment of £1.8 billion over the next 10 years for reserves, which was recently reaffirmed by the 2% commitment to defence spending, further underlies that.

[Mr Speaker]

If the Minister would look at the House we would all be deeply obliged to him. I understand the natural temptation to turn round, but if he could face the House it would be helpful.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment to increase by 10% the number of our armed forces from ethnic minorities. Can the Minister confirm that that will include members of the reserve forces?

[Mr Brazier]

Yes, I can. We are strongly committed to our black, Asian and minority ethnic targets. It is a fact that the attraction of UK citizens from ethnic minorities—as opposed to Commonwealth citizens—to the reserve forces, has consistently run ahead of figures for the regular forces.

[Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

5. What assessment he has made of the potential contribution to the economy of the building of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers. [R]

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

11. What assessment he has made of the implications for his policies of the decision by the Major Projects Authority to give the Future Reserves 2020 programme a red rating.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

My hon. Friend will have heard my earlier answer.

Since the MPA report, governance has been shaken up, with each service delivering its own programme alongside a defence-level enabling structure. My hon. Friend will know from many earlier answers that our improvements in recruitment, selection and training processes are bearing fruit. We remain committed to delivering the FR20 requirement.

[Mr Baron]

The Minister will nevertheless know that the MPA declares as red projects that it believes risk being unachievable. Given the delays, cost increases and capability gaps, and given reports that superannuated reservists and those who do not regularly attend parades are remaining on strength, at what point will the Government consider scrapping their plans and increasing the size of the regular Army?

[Mr Brazier]

We recruited nearly 7,000 reservists across the three services last year. That was a rise of 65%, and the rise was even greater within the Army Reserve. As for my hon. Friend’s reference to superannuated reservists, I visited 3 Royal Welsh last weekend, and the average age of that battalion has dropped from 41 to 31 over the past three years.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

12. If he will establish an inquiry into UK armed forces operations in Helmand province in 2006.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

13. What assessment he has made of recent trends in recruitment of reservists.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

Six thousand eight hundred and ten personnel joined the reserves in financial year 2014-15, a rise of 65% on the previous financial year. For 2012-13, the only statistics available are for the Army reserve, with 3,960 joining that year. We have made significant improvements to the recruiting process, the offer to reservists and the support we give to employers. We continue to look at further improvements to build on this considerable growth.

[Pauline Latham]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Can he explain what plans his Department has to celebrate reserves day later this month, and will he encourage hon. Members to support it in their constituencies?

[Mr Brazier]

Reserves day is an important opportunity for colleagues in the House to support the reserves. It was called uniform to work day, and a number of hon. Members took part in it. Reserve forces and cadets associations will tell colleagues about opportunities to support the event, including an opportunity in the House of Commons for Members and researchers, both existing members of the reserves and those who are interested in joining.

[Karen Lumley]

The 37 Signal Regiment reservists, who are based in my constituency, do an amazing job and have been awarded the freedom of our borough. Will my hon. Friend inform the House how future reserve proposals will help the regiment to continue its brilliant work?

[Mr Brazier]

I join my hon. Friend in her tribute to the 37 Signal Regiment, which has deployed personnel on operations to Afghanistan, as well as on recent exercises in Belize, Gibraltar, Germany and Cyprus, and has provided essential work to the civil authorities in the UK. Army reserve units are paired with, and train alongside, regular units and, when required, may deploy with them—in 37’s case, with 16 Signal Regiment, as she knows. Reserves have the same access to equipment and technology as their regular counterparts, and receive high-quality, challenging training, including more opportunities to exercise overseas.

[Mr Speaker]

I see the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas Soames) has perambulated to a different part of the Chamber, and is not where we are accustomed to seeing him—but I can still see him.

[Sir Nicholas Soames]

May I first congratulate my hon. Friend on his tremendous support and enthusiasm for the reserves, which is very well taken? He is aware of my connection with the Royal Yeomanry, but is he aware that it is the best recruiting regiment in the reserves? That is not just because it has made good use of what the central facility provides but because it does a lot of it itself, and takes a lot of trouble over recruiting. Will he emphasise to all the other reserve units that they can do a great deal themselves to encourage people in their regimental family to get more people into the reserves?

[Mr Brazier]

I am always delighted to take a question from my right hon. Friend, whose illustrious grandfather was a long-serving member of the Territorial Army. He is quite right about the Royal Yeomanry’s achievements. I visited it twice in the past year, and in many ways it is a trailblazer. The key point that he makes about empowering units to do more to help themselves, including devolving some of the marketing budgets—something that we have begun to do—is very well taken.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

What is the average age of recruits to the reserves?

[Mr Brazier]

I do not have the exact age of reservist recruits, but the current average of the Army Reserve is 37. If the hon. Gentleman is thinking of joining, I am sure we can put him in touch with somebody.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

14. Recent personnel statistics show that nearly a third of the armed forces are dissatisfied with military life, so what provisions are in place to ensure that this troubling figure is reduced?

[Mr Brazier]

There is no single bullet. The armed forces have come through a difficult time, with a combination of downsizing of the numbers in the Army as a result of the £38 billion black hole, and the end of operations in Afghanistan, which for many young men and women was an attractor. But measures ranging from the purchase of new equipment to an almost unparalleled number of overseas exercises, together with a fresh look at the terms and conditions of service, are all designed to address the issue that the hon. Gentleman points to.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister back to his position and congratulate the two new members of the Defence team. In the run-up to the election the Prime Minister pledged that regular personnel numbers would not be reduced, but we heard last week about the first down payment from the Defence budget as a result of the Chancellor’s cuts. Can the Minister give an assurance that the target set by the previous Government for reservists will be met and funded?

[Mr Brazier]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his welcome, and the same applies to him. It is always a pleasure to spar across the Dispatch Box. The Conservative manifesto was clear about expanding the number of reservists across the three services to 35,000. The funding is there through the £1.8 billion that was provided over a 10-year period, and the current strengths are running ahead of schedule in all three volunteer reserve services.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. At this point I appeal for slightly snappier questions and answers because we have a lot to get through.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Defence diplomacy is a major component of Britain’s soft power. What steps are the Government taking to foster and encourage this aspect of our international relations?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: defence engagement is of pivotal importance. We are in the process of “upgunning” the role of defence attachés worldwide, with more language training and a proper career structure to make it more attractive. That is part of a wider attempt to raise the importance of defence diplomacy. Soldiers, sailors and airmen can so often reach parts of our allies that others cannot.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give the total cost of Trident replacement so far? Could he confirm whether this House has approved every element of that expenditure?

National Employer Advisory Board

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2015 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

Following open competition, I am pleased to advise the House of the appointment of seven new members to the National Employer Advisory Board (NEAB). They are:

Mr Bagnall

Mr Bird

Mr Carter

Mr McTague

Mr Randeniya

Mr Sproule

Mr Walkinshaw

They join the other seven members of the board, which is chaired by Mr Richard Boggis-Rolfe. The NEAB provides informed independent strategic advice to the Ministry of Defence and the reserves community about how they can most effectively develop their relationship with employers across the UK and particularly employers of members of the armed forces and veterans. I take this opportunity to thank the NEAB for its work which is greatly valued by the Ministry of Defence.

[HCWS16]

Chemical Weapons Convention

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2015 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

The UK’s chemical protection programme is designed to protect against the use of chemical weapons. Such a programme is permitted by the chemical weapons convention, with which the United Kingdom is fully compliant. Under the terms of the convention, we are required to provide information annually to the organisation for the prohibition of chemical weapons. In accordance with the Government’s commitment to openness, I am placing in the Library of the House a copy of the summary that has been provided to the organisation outlining the UK’s chemical protection programme in 2014.

[HCWS15]

Oral Answers to Questions

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Monday 23rd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

8. What steps he is taking to promote service in the reserves.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

In the quarter to December, 1,490 personnel joined the Army reserve, an increase of 147% on the equivalent quarter last year. Colleagues will have seen the multimedia campaign showing the range of opportunities the reserves offer. We have unblocked the enlistment pipeline, more than 420 employers have signed corporate covenants and the civil service is setting an excellent example as a supportive employer, too.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

A constituent, Reservist Rifleman Ben Taylor, was awarded the Queen’s gallantry medal for saving the lives of eight comrades in Afghanistan. With hundreds following in Rifleman Taylor’s footsteps every month, does my hon. Friend the Minister agree that the Chief of the General Staff’s blueprint for reaching our target is achievable?

[Mr Brazier]

I thoroughly agree with my hon. Friend and I join him in congratulating Rifleman Ben Taylor. With the upturn in recruitment, and with retention improving too, the trained strength of the Army Reserve has gone up 560 over the past 12 months to 20,480. That is above our target for the year end, and I am confident that the plans of the new Chief of the General Staff—who, incidentally, was also a rifleman—will be achieved.

[Andrew Stephenson]

On Friday, I held my fourth Pendle jobs and apprenticeships fair, at the Colne municipal hall. I was delighted that the Army was one of more than 20 organisations that took a stall, at which it promoted regular and reserve opportunities. Will my hon. Friend tell us more about the steps that the Ministry of Defence is taking to recruit more reservists in the north of England?

[Mr Brazier]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his initiative. The north of England provides the greatest proportion of our soldiers, regular and reserve, and the relaunch of the Army recruiting campaign’s reserve component last month involved a major event in Liverpool, as he knows. There will be more in the north. Following the Secretary of State’s announcement in October of the intention to restore a post-nominal award to recognise long service in the reserves, I should like to take this opportunity to confirm that such an award will be restored for those of all ranks who achieve 10 years’ service.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

The new 77th Brigade, which will focus on psych-ops, is expected to recruit about 40 % of its members from the reserves. According to press reports, however, by Christmas only about 20 had been recruited. When does the Minister think he will achieve the full complement?

[Mr Brazier]

For obvious reasons, some of the detail of the recruiting in that area will not be published in the House, and I am sure that the hon. Lady—my hon. Friend, if I may call her that—will understand those reasons. There is, however, a big upturn in recruitment right across the reserves, as the figures I gave the House earlier indicated.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

Over the past two years, the MOD has spent £16.4 million on television advertising for recruitment purposes. Was that money well spent? How many recruits resulted from that large spend?

[Mr Brazier]

We cannot say what proportion of recruits resulted from it, but we can say that there has been a surge in recruiting, and that it was up 147% on the quarter last year, as the figures I have just given the House show. Additionally, although we are not going to publish the figures on cyber-recruiting, I can say that they are running ahead of the reserves average as a percentage.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

19. Government answers show that the average age of an existing reservist infantryman is in the mid-30s. Given that we have added only 500 reservists in the two years that this plan has been in place, and that that has led to capability gaps and false economies, has not the time come to rethink the plan and to stop trying to get our defence on the cheap?

[Mr Brazier]

Over the past 12 months, we have added more than 800 to the reserves. That followed a long period—a whole generation—of decline. We make no apologies for revising the age requirements for ex-regular soldiers to join the reserves in order to share their knowledge and expertise. We are looking for people with key skills and it is a waste to lose people with specialist skills in areas such as intelligence and medicine. Dare I say that my hon. Friend, with his years of experience, might have something to offer to the reserves?

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

We have had months of failing IT systems, targets being revised downwards and recruitment to the reserves stalling. In addition, we learned last week that recruitment to the regulars was not meeting its targets. Will the Minister confirm the speculation that is going on within the Ministry of Defence and the Army that an alternative plan to scrap the current target of 30,000 is being drawn up?

[Mr Brazier]

There are no plans, and no such planning is going on, to scrap the target. The number I gave earlier, of 1,490 people joining the reserves in just one quarter, indicates that things are now moving sharply in the right direction. That figure relates to the Army Reserve, but the Royal Naval Reserve has been ahead of target all the way through and the Royal Air Force Reserve is also doing well, with 150 joining in a quarter.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

3. What steps he is taking to increase home ownership among members of the armed forces.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State explain why the House is not allowed to know how many people were recruited from an online source?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

There has been no attempt to refuse to answer that question. All Army recruits, regular and reserve—100%—come through online applications. We have published the numbers of enlistments. [Interruption.] The number I cited earlier—1,490—was the number of Army reservists. I will write to the hon. Gentleman with other numbers. There is no secret about this at all: all Army recruits come through the online system.

[Mr Speaker]

Put a copy in the Library.

Defence

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Ministerial Corrections

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Last year, the number of Britain’s reservists rose by just 20. Given the millions thrown at the recruitment campaign, how is that a triumph?

[Mr Brazier]

The tri-service numbers of reservists over the past six months were up 400. The fact is that after 15 years of continuous quarter-on-quarter decline, they are now going up again. As I mentioned earlier, in the last quarter announced, recruiting was running at double the rate that it was in the equivalent period last year.

[Official Report, 12 January 2015, Vol. 590, c. 597.]

Letter of correction from Mr Brazier:

An error has been identified in the response I gave to the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) during Questions to the Secretary of State for Defence.

The correct response should have been:

[Mr Brazier]

The tri-service numbers of reservists over the past 12 months were up 400. The fact is that after 15 years of continuous quarter-on-quarter decline, they are now going up again. As I mentioned earlier, in the last quarter announced, recruiting was running at double the rate that it was in the equivalent period last year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julian Brazier Excerpts

Monday 12th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

3. What assessment he has made of recent trends in recruitment to the Army Reserve; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

The trained strength of the Army Reserve at 1 October 2014 was 19,310 and we expect it to exceed our end of year target of 19,900. Enlistments in the first two quarters of the year were 62% above the equivalent period in the previous year and we expect the latest quarter to show a further increase, owing to the removal of delays in the recruitment process, the restoration to units of the key role of mentoring recruits and the new marketing campaign.

[Diana Johnson]

Ministers raised the age limit for Army reservists from 43 to 52 after recruiting, as I understand it, only 20 new reservists—somewhat short of the 30,000 they were aiming for to cover the cutting of 20,000 personnel from the Regular Army. Recently in east Yorkshire, there has been filming for the new “Dad’s Army”, so I wondered whether Ministers thought it might be appropriate for the cast to keep their uniforms on.

[Mr Brazier]

In the latest six months, 2,130 recruits were enlisted into the Army Reserve. I ask the hon. Lady to think very carefully before making jokes about the Army Reserve. Whatever policy differences there are, 30 members of the reserve forces—24 of them from the Territorial Army—have died on operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

21. Could the Minister also give us a short update on his progress on the cyber-reserves?

[Mr Brazier]

Recruiting for the cyber-reserves is on course in all three services, but I am afraid that I am not allowed to give any details of the planned structure, for obvious security reasons.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Reservists in the Royal Army Nursing Corps are putting themselves in significant danger as they are called up to serve in Sierra Leone to help combat Ebola. Why is the Ministry of Defence refusing to pay those brave people their operational allowance?

[Mr Brazier]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s admiration of those people, and I was privileged to see them off just before Christmas. I note that the senior nursing officer in the rotation—effectively the commander in the red zone on the current operation—is herself a reservist.

To answer the hon. Gentleman’s question directly, those people are entitled to a number of other allowances, and we are looking at the moment at the issue that he mentions. My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces will write to him when it has been determined.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

The latest MOD figures show that the trained strength of the Army Reserve has actually fallen over the past 18 months. Can the Minister inform the House of the extra cost that has been incurred, over and above the original estimates, to encourage recruitment? The MOD’s continued silence on that suggests either embarrassment or ignorance.

[Mr Brazier]

On my hon. and gallant Friend’s first question, by looking back 18 months he is looking back past the bottom of the trough. The past six to nine months have been much more encouraging, and the next quarter is expected to be even better.

My hon. and gallant Friend has asked his second question again and again, and we have explained that, although we acknowledge that there are some extra costs, there is no way that we can separate them from the whole picture. Some of them are one-off costs, and some of them are connected with regular recruiting as well—we have to remind people, post-Afghanistan and so on, that we are recruiting.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

The original plan to reform the reserve force stated that a force of 30,000 would be required by 2018. That was pushed back to April 2019, and last week in The Times, well informed sources in the MOD suggested that the date may well be pushed back even further. Can the Minister confirm exactly when the 30,000 strength will actually be met?

[Mr Brazier]

We are still firmly committed to April 2019 as the target date. As I have mentioned, recruiting has increased substantially. If we look at the latest quarter as opposed to the latest six months, we see that it has roughly doubled. Over the past six months it is up 62%, but over the second half of that period it has gone up even faster, and we expect a further continuation of that positive trend. We are firmly committed to April 2019.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

4. If he will publish research held by the Government on the global atmospheric consequences of nuclear war.

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[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

T9. According to recent reports in The Times, Ministers are presiding over not only a stalling reserves recruitment programme but a crisis in recruitment to the regular forces. Can any of the Ministers reassure the House that the targets for recruitment to the regular Army forces will be met this year?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

The hon. Lady is correct to say that, in recruiting year 2013-14, we were running at 66% of the annual regular soldier target. That represents roughly 6,200 soldiers, against a target of 9,300. However, the numbers are increasing and we are looking at a range of measures to increase them further, including a marketing campaign that is to be launched shortly.

[Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD)]

T3. Returning to the question of the issuing of a national defence medal, will the Minister join me in paying tribute to my constituent, Mr Martin Halligan, who has done an inestimable and unstinting job on promoting the campaign for the medal nationally? Despite the review that has taken place, will she take on board the feeling expressed by many current and former service personnel that the issuing of such a medal would not undermine previous protocols and conventions or take away from specific acts of courage, leadership and honour, which are rightly recognised at present?

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

At this weekend’s Cardiff City game, I saw not only a welcome return to blue, but, intriguingly, that substitutions in the game were being sponsored by the Royal Naval Reserve recruitment programme, no doubt at considerable expense. Will a Minister tell me what the cost of that programme was and how many reserves have been recruited? Given the low levels of reserve recruitment across the UK, what assessment has been made of the efficacy of such expensive advertising programmes?

[Mr Brazier]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the exact answer he requests, but I can say that the maritime reserves have been consistently ahead of their recruiting and manning targets from the beginning.

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

T4. Will the Minister provide an update on the Future Force 2020 programme?

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[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Last year, the number of Britain’s reservists rose by just 20. Given the millions thrown at the recruitment campaign, how is that a triumph?

[Mr Brazier]

The tri-service numbers of reservists over the past six months were up 400. The fact is that after 15 years of continuous quarter-on-quarter decline, they are now going up again. As I mentioned earlier, in the last quarter announced, recruiting was running at double the rate that it was in the equivalent period last year. [Official Report, 14 January 2015, Vol. 590, c. 7-8MC.]

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

T7. May I put on record my thanks to the Minister for the Armed Forces for his visit to BAE systems in Warton and Salmesbury aerodromes, which are key employers in Lancashire? Will he update the House on defence export prospects for the Hawk trainer aircraft, as its production line has recently opened in my Fylde constituency?

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[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

I have the great pleasure of announcing to the House that I have just been made president of the (Mercian) Squadron Air Training Corps in Lichfield, which is one of the biggest Air Training Corps in the midlands. Will my right hon. Friend maintain his commitment to the Air Training Corps?

[Mr Brazier]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on that great distinction. Air cadets offer a huge opportunity to young people from a whole range of different backgrounds. The Ministry of Defence provides, and will continue to provide, support to both the Air Training Corps and the university air squadrons through the provision of high quality flying training and other supporting activities, including access to defence training areas and ranges.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I try to goad the Secretary of State so that he stops trying to bamboozle us all about the real deterrent we need, which is a properly armed, conventional group of 100,000 men and women to defend this country? Is it not about time that he took our mind off reservists and talked about how many men and women we have under arms in this country?