Defence Implementation Road Map

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 General Committees

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

rose—

[Martin John Docherty (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

rose—

[The Chair]

I will take Martin Docherty. If there is time at the end, we will take Mr Rees-Mogg’s question.

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful to be under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Hanson. I want to take up the point about shipbuilding, because I represent a constituency that no longer has shipbuilding because of a closed UK market. Shipbuilding in my constituency has been annihilated in the past 40 years. What we have seen in the past couple of weeks is the German Government picking up our inability to take on capacity by assisting the Royal Navy. I am sure that the Minister will have something to say about that.

[Mr Brazier]

I am sorry: I did not understand the last part of the hon. Gentleman’s question. He is concerned about the structure of the shipping market, but I did not understand his point about Germany. Could he repeat it please?

[Martin John Docherty]

My point is that Germany has recently been helping the United Kingdom in terms of its naval production because we do not have the capacity to meet our own need.

[Mr Brazier]

This Government have freed up the funds to pay for a very substantial naval programme. We have a large-scale submarine programme and large-scale frigate programme. I myself visited—it is a little way away from the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but by Scottish standards not that far—the Queen Elizabeth just before the Queen came to launch her; we have the Prince of Wales being built, too, and we have an offshore patrol vessel programme. This Government, by taking some extremely painful decisions on manpower, have ensured that we are able to afford a modern, huge, £160 billion equipment programme, of which warship building forms a very large part.

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful for the Minister’s answer, but that is only one part of the equation, because what the Germans are doing is helping us with our refuelling tankers. It does not answer the question about our inability to fill our own capacity. The Minister has not answered that question.

[Mr Brazier]

I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman wants me to say. Before I came into the House, I worked as a management consultant, and some of our clients were famous names, such as Swan Hunter, which no longer exists, except in the history books—it was not entirely my fault. The reality is that shipbuilding did not just go through a recession and a depression. The hon. Gentleman knows that all over the world, world-class shipbuilding facilities closed, and most of the shipbuilding in Europe was lost in the course of 30 or 40 years under Governments of all descriptions. Swan Hunter, 30 years ago, was a major producer of warships and had a strong tradition of producing merchant ships, but it does not exist any longer south of the border, so perhaps it is not among the hon. Gentleman’s interests. The fact is that we lost a lot of shipbuilding capacity. The way in which we ensure that we maintain the shipbuilding capacity that we still have is by having an active shipbuilding programme, and that is exactly what this Government are funding.

[Martin John Docherty]

rose—

[The Chair]

One final question from Mr Docherty.

[Martin John Docherty]

I am sorry, Mr Hanson, but of course I disagree with the Minister on this point. The point about the co-operation with Germany is that it is allowing us to meet our need. That needs to be recognised and we need to build on that partnership. The European Union, in any aspect of defence, is not a threat. My constituents are very clear on that. The biggest threat to our co-operation on defence with allies is the possible Brit exit next year.

[Mr Brazier]

I think that the hon. Gentleman is over-egging his point. The EU offers some valuable opportunities for us to deal with other countries, and I mentioned the anti-piracy patrol as an example. The EDA has produced a number of joint projects on issues such as certification, airworthiness, helicopter training and so on, which have freed up money. There is also a small element of dual-use research, which is of real value. However, to suggest somehow or other that the EU is the cornerstone of our defence, when it is manifestly obvious that it is NATO, seems very strange.

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[Mr Brazier]

Thank you, Mr Hanson. I shall relay my hon. Friend’s suggestion immediately back to my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State.

[Martin John Docherty]

I do not know about anyone else, but I never thought I would hear a Committee talk about speed-dating and defence, but there is a first time for everything. Going back to the EDA and the document, the Defence Committee sees the EDA as

“pragmatic, cost-effective and results-orientated”.

As a matter of fact, in terms of national security and the national agenda, nations such as Norway are members of the EDA and not part of the European Union. I do not see why this last hurrah of the empire seems to be so problematic for the Minister.

[The Chair]

I will take that to be a question. Do you wish to answer, Mr Brazier?

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[Mr Brazier]

I hear what my hon. Friend says and I will come back to him later on his detailed points. I can only remind him that article 346, which is justiciable in the European Court of Justice—there have been a number of cases, although I believe there has not been a recent one—is something we have never been challenged on. It is, to put it mildly, something we would take a very tough line on if we ever were.

[Martin John Docherty]

I draw Members’ attention to page 71 of the documentation, which contains a letter from the Minister to the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). It stipulates that

“as part of EU-NATO co-operation”—

I hope that Members take note—

“hybrid and strategic communications were prioritised, as part of an overall response to Russia and threats in the wider EU neighbourhood”.

I am sure the Minister agrees that the EDA’s programme and possible engagement in that process was more than welcome then, and I am sure Members will agree more than welcome in future. It is not a threat to our national security.

[Mr Brazier]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He is right. There is a wider point, and I urge some of my colleagues, even those who are—I entirely respect their point of view—profoundly opposed to everything that comes out of Brussels, just to think about this one point. The issue with the Russians and Ukraine has to be seen on a whole spectrum, from the hard end right through to the soft end. NATO does not do things such as economic sanctions, so there are areas where we have to talk to our fellow members of the EU if we want action, and I have participated in some of those discussions. There is room for discussing issues that are on the edges of debate but outside the main NATO remit in a European context.

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[Mr Jones]

It does. My right hon. Friend and I spent a week in Washington trying to persuade US Congressmen and Senators to make sure that there was nothing wrong in ensuring that technology transfers should be a two-way street. The problem is that although a lot of claims are made about the US defence market being open and transparent, anyone with experience of it knows that protection is clear.

Such protection, however, comes up in Europe. The document talks about overcapacity in the European defence industries, but there is a reason for that: the protectionist policies of certain members, including France, Germany and others. They have not opened up their markets, not only not to US and international competitors, but also not to UK companies. There have been some good examples, as the Minister rightly pointed out, of good defence co-operation and manufacture between European nations and our own, which have been of benefit to not only those nations, but ours.

The objective, according to the document, of

“an Internal Market for Defence where European companies can operate freely and without discrimination in all Member States”,

is frankly pie in the sky. The idea that the French defence market or shipbuilding industry, for example, will be open to competition throughout Europe is unrealistic. A few years ago in Paris, when I was a member of the Defence Committee, I asked the Member for Brest whether she envisaged a French aircraft carrier being built anywhere other than Brest. She looked at me quizzically and said, “I don’t understand the question.”

The Commission is pressing forward in that area, and that has real dangers for our defence industries. It is not, frankly, an area in which the Commission should be getting involved. I fully support, as the Minister does, existing co-operation in the EU for operations that lie outside NATO or involving other countries, but that is where it should stay. If the market comes into our defence industries, that will block off a lot of the opportunities that this country has for co-operation not only with the United States, which is an important market, but with other growing markets around the world. For example, in the south-east Asian market, the easy transfer between civilian technologies and defence ones brings capabilities that could benefit our defence industries. If they are somehow locked out, because our procurement is restricted to Europe, not only will our defence industries suffer, but so could what is on offer to the men and women of our armed forces.

[Martin John Docherty]

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that in counterbalancing our defence relationship with the United States, we should continue to build relationships with European partners such as the Netherlands? I am sure he agrees that building those relationships can only benefit our security.

[Mr Jones]

I do, but it is naive to think that we are talking only about Europe. Increasingly as the lines between the development of civilian technologies and defence get blurred, defence industries and technologies are a global market. The idea that we can somehow restrict that to within Europe, or give Europe some preference, would be a great disadvantage to our defence industries. As I said, because of the open approach that we took in government, we have benefited from open markets, which have certainly added to investment from overseas into this country, but also to transfers of technologies and expertise, not only ensuring that the kit and capabilities of our armed forces are leading edge, but adding to jobs and prosperity in this country.

My other issue comes under the second point about security of supply. We have already talked about hand grenade shells in connection with security of supply within Europe. I am not quite sure how this would fit in with technology such as the joint strike fighter, which we are involved in developing and building, and which contains both UK and US technology. Perhaps that is a bad example, but there are other technologies. If we have to ensure that technologies are supplied within Europe, that would limit the ability of some of our partners to co-operate with us. I do not think—how can I put it gently?—that the trust we have in the US defence community, for example, is the same as the trust we have when we export technology to France or any of our other European allies. Does security of supply mean that the onus is on us to supply certain technologies if a European country demanded it? That would put real constraints on us.

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[Martin John Docherty]

Thank you, Mr Hanson, for the opportunity to address a Committee of the House for the first time. I am taking a range of issues from the debate. I do not think there is general disagreement with some of the points that the document makes about procurement and opening up markets. I think there will be broad agreement on those. My concern, speaking on behalf of the third party in the House, is the wider impact of this discussion on the broad relationships that are critical to the future of our defence planning and military partnerships. For example, the only members of EDA who are not members of NATO are Finland and Sweden, and I am sure hon. Members will agree that they do not pose a grave threat to the national security of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For all the talk of national security today, it should be put on the record that the only threat to the UK’s national interest is this debate, as it seems to be dragging us back to the issue of European Union membership, which this should not be about.

There has been some comment about NATO being the cornerstone of our defence. Of course it is; I do not think there is any disagreement on that and that will never change. However, to say that the cornerstone of our economic security, the European Union, does not have a role to play in military security—with the vast majority of EDA members being members of NATO—is wilfully naïve. Forgive me, but that sounds a bit of an empire’s last hurrah.

There is an element of condescension in saying that EU cannot offer anything to UK military capability. We are doing ourselves a disservice and undermining the many years of co-operation between ourselves and our vital European allies, both in and not in NATO. I and my Scottish National party colleagues have spoken to our allies, who are aghast at the idea of the debate on taking the UK out of the EU, away from what has been the safest economic ability for 70 years. Our allies want us in and putting our weight behind our membership, and today’s report is an important way to acknowledge that.

I struggle to understand many of the objections to the document from hon. Members. The financial benefits are clear. As I mentioned earlier, quoting the document, the EDA is

“pragmatic, cost-effective and results-orientated”

as the Minister himself agreed. The United Kingdom Government have signed up to the letter of intent committing us to this very sort of defence integration. Working alongside our NATO allies and its programmes such as smart defence, we can make the types of economic savings, allied with the sort of commitments to jobs here in the UK that tie in very nicely with the UK Government’s stated prosperity agenda. That type of co-operation with our closest allies saves us money, so why are we so shy about being involved in it?

It is not as though the United Kingdom does not need to fill the capability gaps that this co-operation seeks to fill as well. My colleagues and I have been very critical—forgive me for going on about it yet again, to gasps across the room—of the lack of marine patrol activity to support our armed services. This type of document is designed to address such shortfalls, which may begin to affect our relationships with our allies, particularly as we face the emerging threats that we do.

As we see an increase in the Russian Federation’s activity close to our shores, it is increasingly obvious that they are knowingly—I make this quite clear—exploiting the weaknesses in NATO’s institutional ability to respond to threats. Can the European Union do something to help in that regard? I do not see why not. This July, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office highlighted the importance of increased EU-NATO co-operation in mitigating the threat we face from the new types of hybrid warfare that we see being practised, critically by the Russian Federation.

I see no threat from a deep and in-depth partnership with our European allies that seeks to strengthen our ability to deal with continuing threats by sharing expertise and knowledge. I see no threat from a document that could help us to increase our security, make efficiency savings and play a leading role in Europe. I look around and see very little appetite to lead us in Europe. What I do see, however, is what The Guardian this week called a crisis in British foreign policy. I see a pandering to this “last hurrah of the Ukippers” mentality that is doing us no favours.

If the United Kingdom is not careful, we will find this political state falling even further behind in the fields of research and development, over and above our addiction to Trident, and with its possible renewal we limit our ambition and ability to hold at bay those security risks that we now face. I am sure that you will be in no doubt, Mr Hanson, of the Scottish National party’s commitment to working with all our allies, and that includes the rest of the European Union, to promote improved access to research, preserving jobs and saving money through synergies with our closest allies across the European Union and NATO. That does not do a disservice to the United States; I am sure that they would welcome it as well.