Situation in the Red Sea

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.

[Sir Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

Open source information suggests that the strikes are diminishing the capability of the Houthis to attack international shipping. As that is both welcome and important, will the Secretary of State concur that that is also his assessment? It is welcome that Aspides and Prosperity Guardian are co-ordinating, but does that also include on the interdiction of weapons being smuggled from Iran into Yemen?

[Grant Shapps]

My right hon. Friend is right that we are degrading—attrited, as they say in military terms—that capability. However, it is still the case that the Houthis are capable of launching attacks. To what extent? Well, the House will come to its own conclusions, but it will note that the gap between the first three rounds of attacks was relatively short, and that the gap between that and this fourth round has been longer. Again, we will wait to see what the response is.

On interdictions: yes, we will certainly continue to try to ensure that Iran is not resupplying. The single best message to go out from this House is that Iran should stop that activity. It is worth noting that it has been only Britain and the US that have been doing interdictions in the past few years—and, of course, we will continue to do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.

[Sir Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

Ukraine can win the war, and must win the war. The Minister touched on the provision of ammunition and equipment, but Ukraine also needs hundreds of thousands of trained personnel. I very much welcome the extension of Operation Interflex, and the work that we are doing, but could we not be doing far more of that with our allies to assist Ukraine?

Ukraine

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[James Cartlidge]

I believe that until recently the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Defence Committee, and I am grateful for that support from him and from his party. He asked a number of questions, but I think the most important was the one about what we could say about the support we are providing for Ukraine right now.

In my opening remarks I emphasised the importance of the maritime capability coalition, and Members will be more than aware of the importance of the Black sea and getting grain out of Ukraine. Since that corridor reopened, some 5 million tonnes of grain have been exported, and it is extremely important for us to retain that. We should also recognise that Ukraine has had significant success in pushing the Russian fleet eastwards to enable that to happen. However, we must not be complacent, which is why we are providing this naval support. We and Norway are joint leaders of the MCC, and when I visited Norway last week, it was clear that we are very strong naval partners because of the shared threat to our home waters that we face from Russian submarines, but we will keep on looking at what more we can do, and I am grateful to Members in all parts of the House for their support.

[Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

In response to the question from the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), my hon. Friend referred to UK companies helping Ukraine to build out its own defence capabilities. That is obviously to be welcomed, but can he also reassure us that the work we are doing to resupply Ukraine is an opportunity we are seizing to broaden and deepen UK defence capabilities, so that in the worst-case scenarios we can enhance our own ability to restock ourselves and our allies?

[James Cartlidge]

It is a pleasure to take a question from my right hon. Friend. He was an excellent Minister for Defence Procurement and an excellent Minister generally, and I always enjoyed the many Cobra meetings that were overseen by him, but he speaks with equal strength from the Back Benches, and his question is very important. When it comes to opportunities for future industrial production in Ukraine, I would like to see an opportunity for us to work together for our mutual benefit to create ordnance not just for Ukraine but for ourselves, because maximising that demand signal is the best way in which to secure the strongest possible military industrial base.

Global Combat Air Programme Treaty

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the skills that the programme will provide throughout the UK. I am reminded of Thales, in Northern Ireland, and of how important the Next-generation Light Anti-tank Weapon has been to the battle in Ukraine—pivotal, I am told, when I speak to my opposite number. I have no doubt that some of the great skills and brilliance from Northern Ireland will be part of GCAP.

[Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

Having been involved in some of the early discussions with Italy and Japan, I warmly welcome this treaty and congratulate my right hon. Friend—they are truly excellent partners. However, he is right in saying that if we are to maintain those manufacturing bases for decades to come, we will need export orders. May I encourage him from the outset not only to look at exports from the licensing point of view, but to look at the potential for export variants, which will allow us to export while also maintaining national security?

Bearskins Clarification

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

On 11 July in a debate in Westminster Hall on bearskins, I referred to data on potential faux fur products that had previously been shared with the Department, but I also stated that the Ministry of Defence had not received recent results data. Whilst my statement was in line with advice I had received, further work has revealed that this was not correct, and I wish to correct the record.

In May 2022 a letter was sent to the Prime Minister by PETA, copying Defence Ministers, enclosing a report against two of the five initial criteria that faux fur would have to meet in order for further work to be done to consider it as a replacement for the guardsmen’s caps. This was passed to officials in the Ministry of Defence, who responded on 15 June 2022 requesting that the report should be sent by the organisation that had conducted the tests direct to our partner, Leidos. We understand an email containing the report was sent but was blocked by Leidos’s spam filters and deleted. Subsequent to the debate, the email was re-sent, copying the MOD. After the MOD forwarded a copy to Leidos it was safely received.

To date, the Ministry of Defence has not seen a set of verifiable data that demonstrates a single sample of faux fur meets the five criteria. We are aware of testing that was carried out in December 2020 by an accredited testing house against three of the criteria, although the material only passed one of those tests: water penetration. As I have explained, we are also aware of further testing, conducted in April 2022. The MOD does not believe from the information we have seen that the organisation that conducted those tests is accredited by either the UK Accreditation Service or the International Laboratory Accreditation Co-operation. In order to consider taking any proposed product forward, we need test results that have been conducted by an independent and accredited testing house.

Consequently, we have not to date seen evidence that a suitable faux fur product exists to be considered as an alternative.

Currently, the foot guards’ ceremonial caps are sourced exclusively from Canada, which is a regulated market and a declared party to the convention on international trade in endangered species of wild fauna and flora. A CITES permit is required for the export of pelts from Canada to the United Kingdom. Canadian and international laws provide strict trade regulations to protect against unlawful trade in black bears, both within Canada and internationally. No bears are hunted to order for the Ministry of Defence; pelts are a product of legal and licensed hunting authorised in Canada by provincial and territorial Governments with the goal of long-term population sustainability.

[HCWS288]

Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

Underpinned by a ringfenced £6.6 billion commitment to defence research and development, we are determined to innovate effectively and at scale. In addition to the well-established Defence and Security Accelerator programme this summer, we are launching the Defence Technology Exploitation programme, geared to supporting small and medium-sized enterprises and their innovative role in defence.

[Bob Blackman]

As my hon. Friend will know, we face a continued and substantial increase in attacks from cyber-technology. It is important to note that that is happening every single day that our defences are being probed. What further efforts will my hon. Friend make to ensure that our defences are secure and those attacks are rebuffed?

[Jeremy Quin]

My hon. Friend is right about that threat, and he is right to suggest that we need to be absolutely on our toes in dealing with it. The Department continuously integrates leading-edge innovative cyber-technologies into military operations, including intelligence agents for autonomous resilience cyber-defence and cyber-deception technologies, through the National Cyber Deception Laboratory. In doing so, we make active use of DASA funding and the excellent expertise that we have in the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory.

[Paul Howell]

As we see in the tragedy that is happening to Ukraine, the normal boundaries of warfare are being ignored, with increasing risks of the employment of biological or viral warfare strategies. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to be at the forefront of innovation and research to deliver the best possible platforms to defend against these abhorrent strategies, and that the work that companies such as Kromek in Sedgefield are doing in collaboration with others deserves full support and indeed acceleration?

[Jeremy Quin]

I am familiar with Kromek and its capabilities, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that it is often SMEs that produce the most brilliant ideas, often working with excellent British universities. DASA finds and supports new ideas within defence, and I am delighted that SMEs make up some two thirds of the projects that DASA supports. Funding is also available for specialist innovative projects through Defence Science and Technology.

[Andrew Jones]

Building on the comments about SMEs, the conflict in Ukraine has shown the benefits of technical innovation, particularly in the area of drones, and we have great SMEs in this country that are keen to help, so could my hon. Friend explain a bit more about how he is engaging with that sector?

[Jeremy Quin]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question, not least because it gives me the opportunity to say how keen the entire defence sector is to support our friends in Ukraine in every way we can. We recently completed the application phase of our Ukrainian innovation fund competition, and no fewer than 295 proposals designed to deliver capability to our friends in the Ukraine in the very short term were submitted from 205 different companies. Many are being closely scrutinised, including 17 that have been shortlisted for immediate attention, and I am proud to say that the majority of contributors were SMEs.

[Chris Clarkson]

As we have seen from recent events in Ukraine, air combat is incredibly important to maintaining our national security and also, as has been mentioned, to maintaining our economic security-supporting businesses, such as Middleton-based MSM in my constituency. Can my hon. Friend tell me what is being done to ensure that the RAF retains its cutting-edge capabilities?

[Jeremy Quin]

A brilliantly topical question, if I may say so, with Farnborough taking place this very week. I was delighted to announce last Friday at the Royal International Air Tattoo our £2.3 billion investment in ECRS mark 2 radar. This British-made world-leading electronic warfare capability will transform our combat air. It is just one example of how we will continue to invest in combat air as we develop our next generation future combat air system programme. We are currently investing some £2 billion into FCAS, with industry and international partners likewise investing in what will be an extraordinary combat capability.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

A few moments ago, the Defence Secretary mentioned Typhoon and the advantages of international co-operation. Is this Government, post Brexit, prepared to have a clear strategy to say that co-operation across Europe is in the interests of defence jobs here in the United Kingdom?

[Jeremy Quin]

It is absolutely the case that co-operation across Europe is helpful to our own defence sector and to the capabilities of the entire western alliance. A couple of weeks ago, I was there to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Organisation for Joint Armament Co-operation, a major procurement hub that we do jointly with the Germans, the Belgians, the Spanish and the Italians. There are umpteen programmes, including Typhoon, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, and Boxer, on which we work very closely. Indeed, the ECRS mark 2 programme to which I have just referred will be integrated by a P4E integration programme across our Typhoon partners. It is absolutely right that we work with all our allies across NATO and they include many of our European friends.

[Mr Speaker]

We now come to the shadow Minister, Chris Evans.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

If this is indeed the last Defence questions for the present Defence team, I would like to place on record my thanks to the Minister for Defence Procurement for his kindness and generosity since I started shadowing him over a year ago. He is well known in the House for his attention to detail and he has been a formidable opponent for me.

“Complacent”, “too traditional”, and “resistant to change or criticism” are some of the words used to describe the Department by the Public Accounts Committee. With a new urgency for innovation due to the clear and present danger created by the war in Ukraine, and with deep concerns that the Department cannot manage large projects such as Dreadnought, is the Minister confident that the Department can deliver the new battle-winning capabilities this country needs, on time and in budget?

[Jeremy Quin]

I very much thank the hon. Gentleman, my shadow, for his question, which started so well. I am very grateful and I hope that we continue our ongoing relationship across the Dispatch Box. I understand his concerns. They have been voiced by the PAC and we have responded to the concerns raised. I am afraid that I am a details bore, and we do go through the projects project by project. Defence procurement is never easy—it is a tough thing to get right—and I have not yet found a state anywhere on earth that can really deliver to the kind of standards that I am sure the hon. Gentleman would wish to see. What I do know is that, in Defence Equipment and Support and throughout the MOD, we have people who are doing a great job. They are becoming more professional, and senior responsible owners are spending more time on the projects. We are making sure that projects are properly set up to succeed at the start and ensuring that they are properly funded. It is that combination, along with working through the defence and security industrial strategy with British companies, that will get us the results we all wish to see.

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

6. What steps his Department plans to take to counter threats originating in China in the context of the 2022 NATO Strategic Concept and joint address from the heads of MI5 and the FBI.

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[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

The hon. Gentleman has raised this with me on more than one occasion previously. I know that it matters greatly to his constituents. As announced back in 2016, Defence Business Services will consolidate its north-west estate into a single location. Last year, a thorough multi-criteria decision analysis was undertaken, which considered a number of locations and recommended consolidation in Blackpool. The full business case is being considered within the approvals process. I expect to make an announcement soon, and will write to the Members representing the constituencies affected.

[Peter Dowd]

I thank the Minister for Defence Procurement for his answer, and for procuring some continuity in the Government, against the odds, by remaining in his post during this crucial time. Will he consider bringing the hubs in Liverpool and Manchester into the Defence Business Services workplace programme solution to avoid compulsory redundancies?

[Jeremy Quin]

What I can say is that in locating to Blackpool, as was recommended, we will do our utmost to avoid compulsory redundancies. There is a good working relationship at a local level with the trade unions, which are doing well to represent their members. There is an absolute expectation on our part that we will maximise the ability to work flexibly, with things such as deferred moves and everything else we can do to support our employees. This move was designed not to cut posts, but as an estate rationalisation scheme. That is at the back and the front of our minds, and we will work with the trade unions and our employees to ensure as few redundancies as can possibly be managed.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for moving so many of the jobs to Blackpool and to my constituency—yet one more to add to my list of wonderful things the Government have done for the town of Blackpool. Will he encourage all Government Departments, not just the MOD, to share his vision and his confidence in the people of my constituency?

[Jeremy Quin]

I know we are not alone in putting Government jobs into Blackpool; it is a popular location, and it was entirely driven by the intensive work we did on finding the best location. I can reassure my hon. Friend and this House that we undertook a very serious bit of work looking at all available options, and the recommendation of Blackpool emerged as a result of that serious analysis.

[Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

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[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

T8. I have met Airspace Unlimited, which is creating an airspace optimisation tool for defence airspace, which will assist the RAF’s ambition to be net zero by 2040 with an added benefit of supporting vital defence training for fifth and sixth-generation combat aircraft. Does the Minister agree about the importance of that and of supporting such initiatives through a defence and security accelerator?

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

I do agree. I think there are huge opportunities, and the hon. Gentleman correctly points out that the RAF has an ambition of 2040 for net zero. We are investing a lot of money, including £2.35 billion into the European common radar system or ECRS Mark 2, a prime recipient of which will be Edinburgh. Scottish companies have a lot of other opportunities to bring to our attention, and we will happily look at them.

[James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I think it was at his keynote speech to the land warfare conference that the Chief of the General Staff made his oft-quoted remarks that this was “our 1937 moment”, that it was “perverse” to cut 10,000 people from the Army and that we would be at risk of being “outnumbered” in the event of warfare. Can the Secretary of State tell me whether that speech was cleared through his office before CGS gave it?

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[Jeremy Quin]

In a packed programme, I will do my utmost to visit the JEDHub centre. My right hon. Friend is too modest to point out that that came out of a recommendation from the Dunne report. It was a valuable recommendation, and knowing exactly what defence investment means for our economy is very good news for defence and very good news for the United Kingdom.

[Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

T10. A couple of months ago I was delighted to spend an evening with some Fijian veterans, and a good fun evening was had by all. I was able to express to them my personal thanks for their services to the British armed forces. I recognise the progress that has been made on visa fees for Fijian veterans, but will the Minister look at cancelling the costs of visas for Fijian servicemen and women’s spouses as well?

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[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

Despite stark warnings from successive Chiefs of the Defence Staff and others about the vulnerability of our undersea cables in the light of increased Russian submarine activity, it took until 2021 for the Government to announce that they would acquire a multi-role ocean surveillance ship to protect that critical infrastructure. It was recently reported that the Government still have not decided on the capability required, a procurement strategy, or an in-service date. Why is that?

[Jeremy Quin]

We are looking closely at how we take forward MROSS. As the hon. Lady suggests, it was an important step to make that part of the defence Command Paper in spring ’21. We said that we would ensure that we brought that capability into service, but we need to get it right, and considerable work is continuing on what exactly that capability should look like.

[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

“Meritorious” was the word that the Prime Minister used in this House to describe the application made under the Afghan relocations and assistance policy scheme by a former Supreme Court of Afghanistan judge who put hundreds of terrorists behind bars, undoubtedly saving British lives. I was promised a meeting with Ministers on the subject; that never materialised, and suddenly, out of the blue, his ARAP application was turned down last week because he was deemed to have not worked closely enough with the UK Government. I plead with Ministers to meet me to review this hero’s case, because I have no doubt that he will be hunted down and slaughtered by the Taliban if we do not bring him to safety.

Bearskin Hats: Queen's Guards

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2022 Westminster Hall

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered e-petition 602285, relating to the use of real bearskin hats by the Queen’s Guards.

The petition calls for real bearskins used for the Queen’s Guard caps to be replaced with a faux fur alternative. The petition has gathered in excess of 106,000 signatures and it is not difficult to see why, given the strength of feeling that exists in the UK against wearing animal fur. Indeed, many of the constituencies with the highest number of signatures are Scottish, which is also not surprising as Ministry of Defence procurement policies and the regulation of international affairs are currently reserved matters and require action by the UK Government. As the petition states, 93% of people in the UK would refuse to wear animal fur, including Her Majesty the Queen, the regiment’s namesake, who has acknowledged the changing societal attitudes towards the issue and who no longer buys fur for her own wardrobe.

Furthermore, a Populus opinion poll held in March 2022 revealed that 75% of the UK population consider the use of real bearskins to be a bad use of taxpayers’ money and support the Government acting to replace bearskins with faux fur. Frankly, at this juncture, it is difficult to understand why the Government would wish to continue with the use of an animal product for ceremonial headgear resulting from slaughtered bears in the face of such strong public opinion.

In their response to the petition, the Government argue that the bear pelts used are the

“by-products of a licensed cull by the Canadian authorities”,

and say:

“Bears are never hunted to order for use by the MOD.” 

In a 2001 freedom of information request made by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Army secretariat conceded that it does not know the details of the supply chain. The MOD receives the final product from its suppliers, and that, it seems, is that.

Furthermore, previous inquiries made by PETA to both the federal and provincial Canadian Governments revealed that no formal cull of bears exists in any territory of Canada. What is known, however, is that the Canadian Government issue hunting tags annually to licensed hunting enthusiasts, and that once in possession of those tags, hunters are free to bait and kill bears. To be clear, this hunting involves the violent killing of bears, with many bears being shot several times. In some provinces the use of the bow and arrow is permitted, leading to the slow and painful death of those poor animals. Some Canadian territories have spring hunts, meaning that even nursing mother bears are being killed, leaving cubs to starve. The incentive to hunt and kill bears is greater if there is a buyer for the fur.

It seems undeniable, therefore, that by continuing to purchase hats made from the fur of black bears the MOD is funding the suffering of bears in Canada by making the baiting and killing of those animals and the sale of their pelts a profitable pursuit for the hunters. To make the connection clear, at least one bear is killed to produce a single cap. In 2020, the Government purchased 100 caps in that year alone. At least 100 bears were killed and their pelts used to produce the Queen’s Guards caps. The Government argue that

“there is currently no non-animal alternative available that meet the essential criterion”

and that any alternative material must meet five criteria. I understand those five requirements concern water absorption, water penetration, appearance, drying rate and compression.

In their response to the petition, the Government go on to highlight the man-made fabric manufactured by ECOPEL, which was passed to an independent testing house by PETA and the results shared with the MOD. The Government state that their analysis of the results showed that the faux fur alternative

“met only one of the five requirements”

needed

“to be considered as a viable alternative for ceremonial caps.”

The Government response goes on to state that while it met the basic standard for water absorption, the faux fur alternative did not perform well in terms of water shedding or on the visual assessment. However, PETA has revealed that new tests conducted between December 2020 and April 2022 have shown that ECOPEL’s faux fur product performs in a very similar way to—and in some instances, better than—real bear fur in all the Government’s identified areas.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be helpful if that analysis were shared with the Ministry of Defence, so that we could have a look ourselves? We have not yet had access to any of that data. We would like to find an alternative if it proves useful—we take that seriously—but that has not been shared with the MOD.

[Martyn Day]

I hope I will come to that later, but I believe that the Minister’s point will be heard by the campaign group. I echo his calls for sharing and transparency. One of my requests is that Ministers meet PETA to discuss things further. I hope he will take that on board and that things can get moving to everybody’s satisfaction.

Let us examine these areas and the results in more detail. First, on water absorption, PETA revealed that tests conducted at Intertek, an MOD-accredited laboratory, on 18 December 2020 showed that the faux bear fur performed similarly to real bear fur when wet. When water was poured on a real bearskin sample and a faux fur sample, the water ran off both samples in several places. When wet, both samples formed tendrils, and water droplets were shaken off both samples.

On water penetration, the same test assessed how much water, if any, penetrated the cap. The faux fur cap, like the bearskin cap, showed no wetting at the back of the sample, meaning it is completely waterproof. On appearance, the machinery used by ECOPEL ensures that strands of faux bear fur match the exact length of real bear fur of 9.5 cm. If images of the bearskin cap and a faux fur cap are considered side by side, they are virtually indistinguishable.

[Jeremy Quin]

I will not make a habit of intervening, I promise. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen the creation of the bearskin using faux fur. I am not aware that one has been created, and I do not know whether it is possible to stretch the faux fur over the wicker in order to create a bearskin. What happens with the drilling of the holes to keep it together? Does that still prevent water penetration? I do not expect the hon. Gentleman to have any answers, but we need to understand those kinds of things if the faux fur is to be a viable alternative. It may be, but we do not know yet.

[Martyn Day]

I appreciate the Minister’s constructive approach to the debate. We probably can keep that going given how few Back Benchers are here. I have not seen them being made physically, but I have seen photographs of the end product and I would be more than happy to join the Minister to see them being made.

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[Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Fovargue. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) for leading the debate on behalf of the Petitions Committee. I am glad that we have this opportunity to discuss the subject of bearskins.

I cannot help but feel a sense of despair. I have spoken on several occasions—both in this Chamber and in the main Chamber—in debates about banning fur imports into this great country. I believe that, if introduced, a ban should also extend to bearskins. For each of the caps used by the Queen’s Guard, a bear is cruelly killed by being shot or ensnared. They can sometimes spend days in painful traps. Ninety-five per cent. of British people object to killing animals for fur, but they are unwittingly paying for it through their taxes. For nearly two centuries, the MOD has waged war on black bears while doing almost nothing to further the search for materials to replace the use of their skins. That is quite simply not good enough in 2022.

There is no reason why the MOD should continue to use real bear fur for purely ornamental caps that serve no military purpose, as had been said, when an almost indistinguishable faux fur has been developed. As I said in an earlier intervention, I have had a chance to see that fabric for myself.

[Jeremy Quin]

I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has seen the material for himself. In the MOD, we have not. I have seen photographs, but I assume that they might have been digital mock-ups. I have no idea whether a bearskin cap made of faux fur exists or what it looks like when it is subjected to water. We must bear in mind that the guardsmen often have to wear them in cold weather and very wet weather for long periods of time. I know that he would want an alternative that actually works, as would I, but without seeing the sample—we would like to see it—it is quite hard to check whether it hits those tests.

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank the Minister for that intervention. I speak as a scientist and work from evidence. I sense almost a desire from the Minister and that he is open for dialogue—hopefully I am not putting words into his mouth. If the material is suitable and fits all the MOD’s criteria, hopefully we are finding a solution. I sense a bit of reticence, though.

[Jeremy Quin]

I would not want the hon. Gentleman to think that I am reticent. He should be aware that where sustainable, affordable and suitably appropriate faux material exists, we have used it—the busby caps of the Royal Horse Artillery are a prime example—but it is hard to agree to use a material without having seen it.

[Christian Wakeford]

I thank the Minister for his second intervention. I am sure that we can get a sample of the material for him and the MOD to peruse and run further tests on.

We should all support the fact that there is a virtually identical alternative, and hopefully we can get behind it. The material is waterproof and lighter than real fur, and it makes for a comfortable alternative for our soldiers to wear. Reports from an independent fabric expert conclude that the animal-friendly material meets and, in some areas, exceeds the criteria. I am aware that further testing will be needed against the MOD’s criteria. It would allow the Ministry to retain the aesthetics of the caps while aligning them with the more modern value of preventing cruelty.

I understand that the MOD has been offered the material free of charge up to 2030, whereas sticking with fur would cost well in excess of £1 million a year, so the change is not just the moral thing to do but the fiscally responsible thing to do. The question is why the MOD has not acted if it is not about mere tradition. The idea that guardsmen take great pride in wearing the current cap and would be somehow upset if a cruelty-free material was used appears to be a fallacy—even more so when, as has been stated, the Queen refuses to wear fur. The country has left many traditions by the wayside and consigned them to the history books because they were cruel, inhumane, outdated or—in some cases—just plain wrong. To stick with something through familiarity and to continue to waste taxpayers’ money does not strike a chord with Britain as a strong, advanced, forward-looking nation. It smacks of a country stuck in the past and refusing to move with the times.

I urge the Minister to look at the evidence in the debate. I am reassured by his comments that he is open to meaningful dialogue. Hopefully we can find a strong solution. The new caps are a very good replica and much more ethical. They are 100% recyclable and, most importantly, cruelty-free. I hope that we do not go into another year of hearing about one more black bear being mindlessly and pointlessly killed to keep tradition happy.

[John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Fovargue. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) for introducing this important debate. It is clear that none of us likes the idea of a bear being killed to make a hat. Some of us think it is unforgivably cruel and inexcusable. Others think that while it may be unpleasant, it is justified by tradition. It was previously impossible to reconcile those two positions, but no longer.

We are told by Ministers that the bear hunt is not the purpose of the activity. It is not like foxhunting, where red coats, an exhausted fox and blood are—apparently—part of the fun. The hunting of bears serves only one purpose: to procure fur for a hat that, it is argued, looks good and honours a tradition going back centuries. Therefore, if a product involving no death can be found that is in every way as handsome and durable as that obtained from a living creature killed for the purpose, surely we can all agree that that is the ideal outcome. Why do we seem to be making so little progress moving from bearskins to cruelty-free synthetic alternatives? In April this year, I hosted a reception in Westminster, in conjunction with the charity PETA, to raise awareness about the issue. I can confirm to the Minister that the hat he has asked several questions about was there. I got to hold it. I got to wear it. Others, I am sure, looked much better in it. However, it exists—so we can clear that up, immediately.

Importantly, on the day of the reception, the Secretary of State for Defence wrote to all MPs attempting to justify the continued wearing by soldiers of hats made out of real fur. His defence of the practice had two principal grounds. First, that synthetic alternatives still failed the Ministry of Defence’s quality control, which living bears sadly pass. Secondly, bears are not wantonly killed for the purpose of making caps; the bears would be killed anyway as part of a regulated licensed cull by the Canadian authorities to manage the wild bear population.

Those two claims should not be hard for the MOD to prove. Nonetheless, it took a freedom of information request to extract some answers. PETA, the animal rights charity, asked whether the hunts killed bears to order for the MOD. In other words, if a certain number of hats are required, would a certain number of bears be killed to make them? We can see why that matters; if it is about managing the bear population, the number killed would not be based on the number of hats needed. The MOD’s answer was,

“No information in scope of this element of your request is held by the department.”

That sounds like a computer writing.

There is no basis for the Secretary of State to assert that the bears would be killed anyway. He does not know.

[Jeremy Quin]

I want to try and help the hon. Gentleman on that point. The last research I have seen was from 2007, which was by H. Hristienko, and J. E. McDonald, who estimated the Canadian black bear population to be around 434,400. I understand that a report from 2017, not by the Ministry of Defence but by the Canadian Government, said that there was 5% to 6% human-induced mortality among black bears, including car and train crashes involving bears. The hon. Gentleman can do the maths; in the last financial year we bought 31 bearskins. I totally appreciate that there is a point of principle here, and I am sure that is the point that the hon. Gentleman is driving at. However, I do not think the numbers would suggest there is an appreciable impact on bear numbers—killed through licensed culls—because of orders from the Ministry of Defence. I fully appreciate that it is a matter of principle—which I respect.

[John Nicolson]

It is a matter of principle. It is not about the number of bears killed, but the principle. It would not be a difficult question for the MOD to answer, but the MOD chose not to answer. It said that it could not answer because it did not have the information. Perhaps the Minister could update the MOD on that.

It is clear that there is no basis for the Secretary of State to assert that the bears would be killed anyway. He does not know. It may well be that the bears are only killed because he orders a certain number of hats—whatever that number is. In fact, that seems highly likely. In truth there is not, and never has been, any evidence of a widespread licensed cull authorised by the Canadian authorities. It just sounds better, when MPs and campaigners ask awkward questions—as we are doing today.

To address the Minister’s point, the evidence is that most bears in Canada are killed by trophy hunters who know there is a market for the skins. Canadian Government culls are infrequent and only authorised to kill the small number of bears straying too close to human habitation. The MOD has no idea about the provenance of the dead bears it buys. The evidence, again, is that they are often nursing mothers. When they are killed to make a hat, their cubs starve to death.

That deals with one MOD claim—it does not stand up. Let us turn to the other claim made by the Defence Secretary in his letter to MPs. Hon. Members will remember that that was about the look, quality and durability of faux fur alternatives to a living bear’s skin. PETA has commissioned an alternative faux fur product called ECOPEL. It has been tested to rigorous standards, and it lasts longer than real animal fur, which has a short post-mortem lifespan. That is why we have to keep killing bears. One generation of soldiers cannot pass on caps made from real bearskin to the next generation. Real bearskins fall apart. By contrast, faux fur does not wilt or decay—it lasts longer. It looks indistinguishable from real fur: I can attest to that. My partner has been abused in public by animal rights activists—hooligans, no doubt—for wearing what they thought was real animal fur. It was not; it was faux fur.

Faux fur is more water resistant. It would also, as we have heard, be free to the public purse. ECOPEL say it will provide custom-made hats to the MOD for a decade without cost. Those hats now exist—I have seen them. I would advocate that the Minister has a look. I would have thought that this all sounds good, but apparently not for the Defence Secretary. He said the faux fur did not meet necessary standards. What are those standards? How do we test them? I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that the Minister shares the analysis: he did not do so. If the MOD shared the specific detailed requirements that ECOPEL needs to address, it and PETA would undertake to meet them. There is some agreement on that point—we could move forward.

This is the first of two animal welfare debates today. The second is a debate looking at the violent whaling and dolphin killing in the Faroe Islands. Both debates come at a point of friction between tradition and animal welfare, but for traditions to be transferred from generation to generation, they must evolve and adapt. We cannot defend cruelty on the basis of tradition, otherwise we would still be bear-baiting. Come to think of it, we may still be. My constituents in Ochil and South Perthshire and the country at large care passionately about animal rights, as I know from the correspondence I have received. People find it jarring to see soldiers wearing hats made out of dead bears when a viable, affordable and ethical alternative is available. They have pressed me to get answers today, and they are watching. Of course, it may well be that we are all shadow boxing. The Secretary of State and the MOD may well have no intention of ever replacing real fur with a cruelty-free alternative. They may not care how the bears are killed or whether faux fur is as good as, or better, than real fur as a product. However, that is not what they say, so will they please say what they mean and mean what they say?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Fovargue. I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the Army’s use of bearskins as headwear for the Household division. The country is proud of its military and the traditions of selfless service that it represents. The country is also proud of our record as a leading nation in supporting animal conservation and welfare. I am pleased to have this opportunity to explain the Government’s position in greater detail, and I hope to dispel a few of the myths surrounding this issue.

First, the cap itself: I do not need to tell the House that the bearskin worn by the Queen’s Household division is an iconic emblem of our country, whether seen outside Buckingham Palace or, on occasion, outside Holyrood or Edinburgh Castle. As pointed out by the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day), the caps have been worn for more than two centuries by members of the Household division. They are a lasting reminder of the famous victory at the battle of Waterloo in 1815, when the 1st Regiment of Foot Guards defeated Napoleon’s Grenadiers and, in doing so, helped to establish the circumstances in which the UK would remain at peace with the European powers for 40 years and with those of western Europe for a century. Their reward was not just the title of Grenadier regiment, but the right for every solider to wear a bearskin. Even today, the opportunity for soldiers to don the cap is regarded as a great honour, whether they are in the Grenadier Guards, the Scots Guards or any of the five regiments of Foot Guards.

We are not unique in making use of ceremonial bearskin caps. They are part of the uniform of some 13 other nations, from Canada and Kenya to Spain and Sweden. However, I would hazard a guess that it is the British bearskin that is most noted around the world.

I want to make it clear that the Army is not wedded to the material that makes up the cap. Where man-made alternatives to replace natural fur items provide a suitable, affordable and sustainable alternative to animal products, the MOD will use them. However, until that material is sourced and proven, the UK goes to great lengths to ensure that the pelts that make our caps are procured in the most responsible way possible.

[Christian Wakeford]

It is reassuring that the MOD is open to more sustainable and ethical products. However, can the Minister explain what steps the Ministry has taken to explore the alternatives to bearskin thus far?

[Jeremy Quin]

The hon. Gentleman is pre-empting me, but I will get there. There is a long record of examining the alternatives, stretching back to when other parties were in government.

In response to the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock), let me be clear: bears are never hunted to order for the MOD. Bear pelts used for the Queen’s Guards’ ceremonial caps are sourced exclusively from Canada precisely because it is a regulated market and a declared party to the convention on international trade in endangered species of wild fauna and flora. A CITES permit is required for the export of pelts from Canada to the United Kingdom. Provincial, territorial, federal and international laws also provide strict trade regulations to protect against unlawful trade in black bears, both within Canada and internationally. The pelts required are by-products of legal and licensed hunts, which are authorised in Canada by provincial and territorial governments.

The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk mentioned that the total number of bearskins acquired in 2020 was 120—I have it down as 107 in 2020. The hon. Gentleman might be right; my numbers are by financial rather than calendar year. We acquired 31 bearskins in 2021. In response to the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson), I have put that into perspective. In other words, any reduction in the number of bearskins procured by the MOD would not have any meaningful impact on the Canadian conservation and population management policy. However, I appreciate that there is a point of principle that goes beyond that.

We are also very sparing in the acquisitions that we make. Individual soldiers do not possess their own hats; they are cared for and shared within the Household Division. Despite their constant use, every effort is made to carefully prolong the longevity of each ceremonial cap. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire is concerned that the caps do not last; actually, they usually last for more than a decade and some have been in use for as long as 60 years. They are carefully looked after as treasured items.

None of that is to say that we would not be perfectly willing to embrace a faux fur material that is up to the job. The Department has already made it clear that where suitable, affordable and sustainable alternatives to animal products exists, they will be used. The Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for Barnsley East, referred to the faux fur used in the smaller busby hats, worn by the King’s Troop of the Royal Horse Artillery; those hats do not need to be worn with such regularity or all year round, in all manner of demanding conditions. The bearskin caps are taller, broader, made of longer fur and inherently weightier. They must also retain their distinctive shape and appearance for far longer durations than required of many other items of ceremonial wear.

[Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

I think the Minister confirmed, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford), that the Government are open to the possibility of a sustainable and viable option other than real fur. If the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) and others can demonstrate that such a product exists, would the Minister be willing, subject to costs and all the other considerations that have to be taken into account, to switch to that product?

[Jeremy Quin]

Absolutely. As I said at the outset, we are not wedded to the material used but we are wedded to this iconic symbol of the British Army. If there is an alternative that works, it will be taken seriously. Affordability, sustainability and other criteria are important, but whether the other material works is key.

[John Nicolson]

It sounds as if we are making progress, which is a rarity in such debates and quite exciting. Will the Minister give us a pathway and agree to a meeting, so that the manufacturers can turn up, provide the hats and agree to a timetable for them to be analysed? If they pass, that will be great and we will all be happy; if they fail, will the Minister provide the manufacturers with a breakdown of how they have failed so that they can address the problems and we can make progress?

[Jeremy Quin]

I can perhaps help the hon. Gentleman by explaining the pathway that we have already trodden, right up until today, and we can see where we can go from there.

[Margaret Ferrier]

While we have been in this debate, I have contacted PETA and can confirm that its representatives are ready and waiting to meet the Minister, and ECOPEL’s offer still stands. They can bring the prototype hat to the meeting and samples of other faux fur. Is the Minister willing to meet PETA and ECOPEL to go through the options?

[Jeremy Quin]

Let me go through what we are doing. Finding a faux fur alternative is not without its challenges. Until 2007, research into faux fur replacements was conducted by Defence Clothing. It looked at more than 50 different types that used many different fibres in many combinations, both synthetic and natural. None were found to be acceptable and many created static and the fur stood on end.

In 2007, PETA submitted two samples that MOD agreed should be looked at in detail. A number of test methods were developed to compare the faux fur with real fur and assess its performance. Both samples were rejected as they allowed water penetration, did not shed water but absorbed it and did not shake it off.

Some seven years later, in 2014, PETA approached the MOD about submitting more faux fur samples and understandably wanted to know the required parameters. The tests devised previously were formalised and agreed with PETA as the starting point that the faux fur had to meet before being considered as a replacement.It was agreed that the test house would be Intertek and that the MOD would be sent a copy of any report.

In 2018, PETA submitted a sample to Intertek that was not taken forward as it showed unacceptable water penetration. In 2019, PETA submitted a sample to Intertek that had improved water-penetration results. However, although the water penetration was greatly reduced, the wet appearance was unacceptable, with rat-tails and dripping. The sample was not passed to the MOD to verify. In February 2020, PETA submitted a sample to Intertek that had greatly reduced water penetration but, again, a poor wet look.

Another sample was tested in December 2020 and there was nil penetration, although there were still problems with appearance. In 2021, the testing house shared its report with the MOD. I am afraid we do not have any detail on the fabric or the supplier, or the technical details, such as how to seal stitch holes and any seams needed to retain the waterproof barrier. It is yet to be established whether the sample could be formed over the wicker framework to resemble a real fur, and a trial is needed to gauge performance in use. For example, does the material succumb to static problems? What does it look like if it is wet? I was pleased to hear from the hon. Member for Bury South (Christian Wakeford) that a faux fur bearskin over a wicker frame has now been created, which sounds like good news. I was not aware of that before this debate.

Earlier this year, PETA issued another report, in conjunction with its campaign, claiming that all five tests that the MOD require have now been proven in the use of faux fur. Thus far, however, we are unsighted on the latest test results.

I wish to calm down excited Members but give them encouragement. The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) said that it was taking a long time to change policy. There is no policy issue here to be concerned about. If there is a faux fur alternative that works and overcomes the hurdles I have described, we will look quickly at affordability, sustainability and the other boxes that we need to tick. There is no opposition at all to the idea of using faux fur if it can be proved to work. As I say, in other circumstances we have actively and willingly embraced faux fur alternatives. We would be keen to see whether faux fur works in this instance.

The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk said that there are questions to answer; if PETA helps us to answer those questions by providing to the experts in the Ministry of Defence the material—the faux fur bearskin—that PETA has created, we will without doubt have a look and consider the results seriously.

The House can rest assured that we will continue to keep these matters under review and, as I say, if PETA or any other body wishes to share the details of any tests with us, those details will be analysed. The best way to help to make us use faux fur in future is to share with us the data. If the data proves to be right and we can genuinely believe that there will be a viable faux fur alternative, we will be happy to take it forward and then test it against sustainability, affordability and other criteria.

At the moment, however, the jury is out. We need to see the results of the tests, which have not yet been shared with us, and evidence that faux fur can be made to work and can hit our five criteria. If we have that evidence, we will happily take faux fur on, but that is the hurdle that we need to get over, and it is in the hands of others. We are willing to receive any information.

Atomic Weapons Establishment Pension Scheme

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary has today laid a departmental minute to advise that the Ministry of Defence is creating a new contingent liability associated with the provision of a Crown guarantee to the trustees of the Atomic Weapons Establishment defined benefit pension scheme.



The departmental minute describes the contingent liability that the Ministry of Defencewill hold. The contingent liability will become effective from 21 July 2022.



AWE has been sponsored and wholly owned by the MOD as a non-departmental public body since 1 July 2021. AWE produces the UK nuclear warhead which underpins our independent nuclear deterrent.



AWE operates two pension schemes, one of which is the AWE defined benefit pension scheme overseen by independent trustees.



The MOD has agreed with HMT that it will provide a guarantee to the scheme trustees, with the intention of securing that the scheme’s assets will be sufficient to meet its liabilities. This will ensure that the scheme members can have confidence that their accrued benefits under the scheme will be paid when eligible.



The contingent liability will continue for the duration of the scheme—until such time that all members and their entitled dependants are deceased—and will crystalise only in circumstances where the scheme is terminated early and or AWE is liquidated, becomes insolvent or cannot or does not make the contributions payable in respect of the scheme as they fall due. The MOD will note a liability of £150 million over 20 years in its accounts. If the liability is called, provision for any payment will be sought through the normal supply procedure.



In granting the guarantee, MOD and HMT have collectively agreed in principle, subject to applicable regulations and law, to bring the scheme’s assets and liabilities into central Government control in line with the Government’s principles for balance sheet management, while maintaining members’ existing benefits. Agreement to proceed on this basis would be subject to a detailed feasibility study being concluded in advance, including identifying the accounting and budgeting implications on the MOD, as well as any pension law compliance and value for money considerations. This study will be carried out in consultation with AWE and the trustees.

[HCWS187]

MOD Climate Change and Sustainability Strategic Approach: One Year On

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

Defence is already being impacted by climate change. We must face the reality of operating in a changing world and adapt accordingly. In doing so, we will need to preserve our capabilities and operational advantage.

Against this backdrop. I launched the Ministry of Defence’s climate change and sustainability strategic approach (CC&S), in March 2021, to build on existing work and to form the basis of our response. Defence has made substantial progress in delivering the approach’s initial action plan. In the last year we have:

Commenced the process of expanding our force development scenarios to capture the dynamic nature of the environment in which we will operate in the future to ensure maintenance of our operational capability.

Engaged with allies and partners to build a shared understanding, exchanged methods and approaches to response to how climate change is reshaping the global security landscape.

Developed a sustainable support strategy to reduce the vulnerability of UK Defence while maintaining or improving our capability, productivity and efficiency. This includes six specific initiatives on: operational self-sustainment, resilience of the supply chain, reducing the lifetime impact of defence commodities and an operational energy and fuel strategy on how we power our ships, aircraft and vehicles in the future.

Established a Defence Suppliers Forum CC&S Steering Group to build a common understanding with industry partners of the scale and approach to our collective decarbonisation challenge.

Updated our built estate policy and standards for new builds to a higher standard of energy efficiency mitigating future energy cost and resulting in lower carbon emissions.

Commenced the next phase of the development of a natural capital asset register for the rural estate, development of a woodland masterplan and work with our tenant farmers through the DEFRA Environmental Land Management Scheme.

Appointed a director of climate change and sustainability to co-ordinate activity and, drawing on expertise across the services, to drive delivery across defence and a non-executive director for sustainability to the Defence Safety and Environment Committee to provide an external challenge on the delivery of our approach.

Established a growing network within Defence of over 1,000 members to help identify opportunities and embed our sustainable ambitions.

Expanded the living lab concept exemplified at RAF Leeming to test and prioritise de-carbonisation and wider sustainability interventions as well as looking at the skills need.

This work now needs to be expanded to fully adapt how Defence operates and if needs be, fights in the changing environment and supports its capabilities. We have made a start on what needs to be a systemic and ongoing campaign.

[HCWS121]

Defence AI Strategy Launch

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin)]

Today I am pleased to publish the Defence Artificial Intelligence (AI) strategy. This strategy sets out our ambitious plans to harness responsibly the game-changing potential of these ubiquitous, enabling technologies to rapidly modernise the UK’s armed forces and secure our military edge. Our vision is that, in terms of AI, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) will be the world’s most effective, efficient, trusted and influential defence organisation for our size.

The strategy articulates how we will transform the culture of defence to become truly “AI ready”, developing the skills, technical enablers and research and development programmes to dramatically accelerate the adoption of AI-enabled systems and capabilities. In doing so we will champion and strengthen the UK’s industrial and academic base to secure national strategic advantage in AI technologies, supporting the Government’s wider ambitions for the UK to become a science and technology superpower by 2030. The strategy also sets out how we will address the global security policy challenges associated with the use of AI in a defence context, from geostrategic technological competition to counter proliferation and strategic deterrence.

We recognise that getting right the ethics of military AI is a particularly important requirement. That is why, alongside the strategy, we are also publishing a policy document: “Ambitious, Safe and Responsible - Our approach to the delivery of AI-enabled capability in Defence”. This document sets out the robust controls framework that will be applied for all AI-enabled military capabilities, throughout system lifecycles, providing assurance to the public and our partners that our use of these systems will always be in line with UK values, standards and legal obligations.

We have engaged extensively with partners across Government, civil society and our allies in developing these approaches, and will continue to do so over the coming months.

I am placing copies of both documents in the Library of the House.

Attachments can be viewed online at: https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2022-06-15/HCWS101

[HCWS101]