Finance (No. 2) Bill

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th April 2014 Commons Chamber

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Temporary Chair (Martin Caton)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 1, in clause 112, page 94, line 1, at beginning insert—

‘(1) Before bringing forward any further reform of the bank levy rates system, the Chancellor shall lay before Parliament a report considering the impact on the total receipts paid to the Exchequer since 2010 by—

(a) UK banking groups;

(b) building society groups;

(c) foreign banking groups; and

(d) relevant non-banking groups.

(2) The report will pay particular attention to receipts from—

(a) corporation tax;

(b) the bank levy; and

(c) bank payroll tax.

(3) A copy of the report in subsections (1) and (2) shall be laid before Parliament.’.

Clause 112 stand part.

[Cathy Jamieson]

It is a pleasure to be here this afternoon to continue what have been interesting debates, as they always are on Finance Bills. I notice that the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) is no longer in his place, but I thought I ought to declare my interest, given his comments to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) about tofu-eating, Guardian-reading, sandal-wearing people. If I say nothing other than that I am a vegan, perhaps Members will see that those comments would have been more aptly aimed at me rather than my hon. Friend, who I am assured is not a tofu eater.

The new clause and amendment build on points that the Opposition have made before, both on previous Finance Bills and in various other debates. New clause 5 would require the Chancellor to review and report on the feasibility of reintroducing a bank payroll tax, otherwise known as a bank bonus tax, and on whether the additional revenue could be used to fund a job guarantee scheme for people in long-term unemployment, along the lines that we have proposed. The new clause and amendment are reasonable and relatively straightforward, and there is no hidden agenda behind them. The Exchequer Secretary will know from previous Finance Bills and other debates that I always make reasonable suggestions, and I wish to explain why we believe that the new clause is the right approach at this time.

To put the matter into context, nearly 1 million young people are unemployed, and the time is right to do something about that by repeating the tax on bank bonuses to fund a compulsory jobs guarantee for every young person who has been out of work for more than 12 months. We have been clear that they would have to take that job, or they would lose benefits. The bank bonus tax would help to fund the first year of such a guarantee. As I have said, there are a large number of long-term unemployed people, and the guarantee would help to ensure that not just young people but those over 25 who had been out of work for two years or more got back into work. I will come on to why that is so important, but we believe that the bank bonus tax, coupled with our plan to change pension tax relief, would ensure an annual revenue stream to fund that policy throughout the next Parliament.

I was expecting that Government Members might raise a particular query at this stage, but I will save them the trouble of intervening by saying, for the avoidance of any doubt, that the compulsory jobs guarantee is the only policy that we intend to be funded by the bank bonus tax and the proposed changes to pension tax relief.

Let me give the context of the previous bankers bonus tax—the bankers’ payroll tax, as it was called at the time. Despite comments that Government Members often make, it is generally acknowledged that the banking system survived the financial crash in 2007-08 largely due to the significant support that it received from the taxpayer. Even today, according to the New Economics Foundation, the banks deemed too big to fail continue to receive pretty generous taxpayer support. Barclays, the Royal Bank of Scotland, HSBC and Lloyds enjoyed combined savings of £37.7 billion in 2012, because the financial markets deemed them to big to fail. Arguably, that has left some smaller banks and new competitors at a disadvantage, because they cannot enjoy the subsidised borrowing rates of the big four. Notwithstanding the changes that have been made, about which I will say more, the banking system arguably remains too concentrated and potentially risky. The reality—the Minister and others will be well aware of it—is that, if there is another problem in any of the banks, or another financial crisis, taxpayers would bear the costs of the bail-out.

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[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady remind hon. Members how much she wants to raise from the tax in the first full year? What impact would it have on banks’ capacity to lend?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I will come to that. In discussions I have had with banks they say that they want to lend and have the resources to do so, but some of the schemes have not necessarily encouraged people to come forward and have not been as successful as they might have wished. I have also heard the criticism from some banks, not all, that perhaps another levy or a different approach to the bankers bonus tax would have implications for capitalisation of the banks and so on. However, when we look at the scale of some of the bonus pots, it is difficult to make the argument that the money will not be there. The money appears to be there in some instances for excessive remuneration and bonuses, rather than other schemes.

Compensation costs for the mis-selling of payment protection insurance—the PPI scandal—have now reached £22 billion, an astonishing sum, with Lloyds alone incurring compensation costs not far short of £10 billion. Significant fines have been imposed on Barclays, RBS, Lloyds and Deutsche Bank for attempts to rig LIBOR, doing huge damage to the banks’ credibility and showing how important it is to change the culture and behaviour. That change has been much talked about, but has yet to be delivered entirely.

I am not trying to bash the bankers, as it is sometimes portrayed. I well understand the difficulties faced by front-line staff in the banks—the people in the lower tiers of the management system. They operated in and had to comply with the prevailing culture, and were set particular targets and given sales incentives. When we look back at that approach, we can begin to pinpoint the move away from the notion that the bank was there to look after people’s money, both individual depositors and local businesses, towards the retail culture, in which the emphasis was on selling and making profits without, in some instances, due care and attention to fiscal responsibilities and duties to the customer. I hope that changes brought about by recent legislation will see an end to that culture. Many of the banks are talking about that, and it will understandably take time, but we need the nudges, the pressures and the reminders, not just from the regulators, but through public opinion. Unless a watchful eye is kept on the banks, the change in culture will not necessarily succeed.

Despite having racked up billions of pounds in fines, several of the big banks still proposed significantly higher bonuses for 2013—the latest year for which figures are available—than for the previous year. They went up 10% to £2.4 billion at Barclays; up 8% at Lloyds to £395 million; and up 6% at HSBC to £2.3 billion. RBS, which is 81% owned by the taxpayer, has also announced a bonus pool of £588 million this year. I know that some of the banks claim that their overall bonus pool is coming down, but for the ordinary person in the street the figures are more than they would ever hope to win in a lottery in their wildest dreams, never mind expect to earn in the course of a year. They also find it astonishing that the banks might seek to breach the EU cap on bankers bonuses. It is difficult to understand why people who are paid in excess of £1 million, and have a range of other benefits, seek bonuses of twice their annual salary.

[Bob Stewart]

One consequence of bonus payments is that the Treasury, presumably, gets 40% of them, which is a bonus for the Exchequer. Or have I got that wrong?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I will come on to that point, and on to corporation tax, when I speak in more detail about why we want a review of the bank levy. I hope Government Members understand why we think it is important to have a review and to consider the implications. I started by saying that we are taking a relatively mild-mannered approach, with no demand, as is sometimes made, for something to happen immediately. We are saying, “Let’s look at the figures, let’s look at the implications, let’s look at what can be done in the round, and let’s have the Government do that work and bring it back for further discussion.”

To go back to the hon. Gentleman’s point, the figures compiled by the Labour party suggest that the cut to the 50p tax rate saw an estimated 2,714 bankers who earn more than £800,000 share a £98.5 million windfall—an average tax cut of £36,300 each. I just make that point in relation to the notion that the Treasury will somehow get the yield from that.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Would my hon. Friend like to comment on why the gap—which I do not think, from their policies, Government Members understand—between the top and the bottom matters? Overwhelming evidence shows how harmful it is to society that the gap between rich and poor is increasing.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point and it is important to recognise it. I made the point that this is not about bashing the bankers per se. The front-line staff who operate call centres and other places have not seen their living standards rise as quickly as they might have wished. Those on the minimum wage or the living wage, who aspire to improved employment opportunities if they were available; those on zero-hours contracts; those who work part time but would prefer to work full time; young people taking any job, even if it is a stop-gap until they find one that suits their qualifications and aspirations—they are the ones who find it most difficult to understand why the banks have not changed their culture. It appears to them that in some instances people were being rewarded not for success but for failure, and that they could not aspire to have their own success in their own jobs rewarded. It is also fair to say that in some ways the financial services sector was slightly better protected from the wage freezes and so on than manufacturing and other sectors in industry. I absolutely understand my hon. Friend’s point.

No Government Members are seeking to intervene at this point, so I can only assume that they heard what my hon. Friend said and agree that this is a very important point in considering how to take things forward. As she suggested, ordinary people, particularly young people, are still dealing with the legacy of the financial chaos caused by the banks, and with the cost of living crisis that has been made worse by the policies of this Government. To return to her point, real wages—I will say it again, even though I know it has been repeated on numerous occasions in the course of these debates—have fallen by £1,600 since 2010. That is a huge amount of money for those on the lowest incomes. That may not have an impact on those who received the average tax cut of £36,300, but it certainly has an impact on ordinary people who are trying to do the best for their families.

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[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

There is a perfectly good case to be made for reducing the difference between high and low salaries, and the hon. Lady is making it. What I do not understand about Labour’s policy is that it seems to be concerned with variable pay but not with fixed pay. Labour Members appear to be quite sanguine about a pay level of £2 million a year, but not about a pay level that consists of a £1 million basic salary and a £1 million bonus. That strikes me as rather odd.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I think that a separate debate could be had about pay levels overall, but for the purposes of the debate on new clause 5, we are focusing specifically on the question of bonus payments. It has been argued that if we follow this line the banks will find an increasing number of ways of paying bonuses, such as deferring them, and we have not said that is necessarily a bad thing. However, for the purpose of longer-term economic stability, it is surely better for people not to be rewarded for failure, but to be held to account over a longer period.

[David Mowat]

Of course that is right, but if we are trying to reward people for success, it seems logical to assume that variable pay provides a better and more valuable way of doing that than very high fixed pay. I do not understand why the Labour party is so relaxed about very high fixed pay but wishes to tax variable pay, which can be associated—I agree that this is not always the case—with success or failure.

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[Cathy Jamieson]

When the last Labour Government introduced a bank bonus tax, one of the issues that we considered was behavioural change, but that behavioural change has not come about in the way that we might have expected.

Let me return to our proposal that these funds should be used to return 900,000 long-term unemployed young people to work. The rate of long-term unemployment has almost doubled since 2010. Government Members talk of the number of jobs that have been created for people in their constituencies, but the fact is that in most constituencies young people are out of work for extended periods—in some instances, for more than a year. A year in the life of a young person can make all the difference to the extent to which that young person will succeed in later life. We all know that if young people do not have an opportunity to enter education, employment or training when they leave school, that can have significant implications for their earning capacity and ability to look after themselves and their families in later years, and indeed can have a number of long-term implications for the state.

[Mrs Glindon]

The cuts in the bank levy and corporation tax over the last three years have cost the country nearly £3 billion. Given what that £3 billion could have done for the young people my hon. Friend is describing, it is a disgrace that it was not collected.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I am sure that, like me, my hon. Friend meets young people every day who are desperate to get into employment, and understands absolutely what additional funding would do to help that happen. Like many other Members, I organised a jobs and employment fair in my constituency recently, and it was humbling to see the number of young people standing outside the hall queuing up before it opened in the morning in the hope of obtaining an interview and the opportunity to put themselves forward to the employers who were there either for an apprenticeship or even for part-time work—anything to get them off the dole queues. If we look at what we could do through this bankers bonus tax to support those young people, I think it is clear that is well worth introducing.

Unlike the Government, we are not willing to sit back and do nothing while ordinary people are struggling with the cost of living crisis. That is why we are calling on the Chancellor to publish a report on the feasibility of reintroducing the bank payroll tax and using the proceeds generated to fund what we have called a compulsory jobs guarantee.

It is important to stress a point I made earlier: under the scheme we are proposing every young person out of work for more than 12 months would be guaranteed a job, and they would take that up or they would lose benefits. So there is both the carrot and the stick, because we think that is important.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

I have been listening to the hon. Lady’s argument and so I took the trouble to check the JSA claimant levels for her constituency: the number of 18 to 24-year-old JSA claimants is down 20.7% and claims of duration of over 12 months—the long term—are down 12.1%. Surely that disproves her argument that the figures are going up:

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[Cathy Jamieson]

I note that the hon. Gentleman did not quote the long-term youth unemployment rate for my constituency. He is looking at the overall long-term unemployment rates, and in my constituency, which I have lived in for most of my life, I have seen what has happened in relation to people who have been unable to secure permanent full-time employment. I have seen the young people who have been unable to get the apprenticeships they so desperately want. I also know, from work I did in the past—I did have a life before I came into the hallowed halls of this place—with young vulnerable people, the importance of trying to support them into employment. I know, too, that many young people right across the UK are in the same situation: they are desperate to get into employment; they need the help to get there; they need us to be on their side. I therefore cannot for the life of me understand why those on the Government Benches would want to vote against bringing forward a report to look at this in more detail.

[Guy Opperman]

rose—

[Cathy Jamieson]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can explain to me why he does not support the idea of bringing forward this report.

[Guy Opperman]

Does the hon. Lady not accept that things like traineeships, which are the greatest passport into apprenticeships and jobs, are the true best way in which to train up our young men and women so they can then obtain the jobs and apprenticeships she is so laudably seeking?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I have no difficulty with the idea of getting young people into any form of education, employment, traineeship and so on, but we have to ensure that that is available to the young people who are out of work for a lengthy period as a priority, because we know that the longer young people are away from the jobs market, the more difficult it is for them to get back in, and I do not see that the hon. Gentleman’s point is in any way incompatible with the idea of bringing forward a report to look in more detail at how this could work and how the funding would be used.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I should like to make a quick point about the evidence that links entry-type jobs to future career progression. That evidence is weak, so my hon. Friend is right to say that a sustained approach needs to be taken. Is she also aware that a Prince’s Trust report on long-term youth unemployment shows that one in five young people who are long-term unemployed feel that they have nothing worth living for? Long-term unemployment has a direct effect on finances, but it also affects how young people view themselves in society. The implications of that are—

[The Temporary Chair (Martin Caton)]

Order. This is an extremely long intervention.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend was making a valuable point. I am well aware of the excellent work being done by the Prince’s Trust. Many young people who felt that they had very little hope have been given hope through their involvement in that work. It has given them confidence, skills, training and, in many cases, an opportunity to get their first job, so that they can start earning and contributing to society. That should be our aim for all our young people.

I therefore hope that the Government will agree to our proposal for a report. We believe that the scheme would cost about £1.9 billion. As I have said, the cost would be met in the first year by the tax on bonuses and by the reduction in the rate of tax relief available to those earning more than £150,000 a year. Those measures should generate more than £2.5 billion, and the annual revenue generated by the changes to pensions tax relief would fund the jobs guarantee throughout the next Parliament.

We have consistently argued for the reintroduction of the bankers bonus tax, to ensure that the banks fulfil their obligation to the taxpayer by supporting jobs and growth in the economy. That is why we are calling on the Government again today to stand up for the taxpayer, and for those people who are desperate to get into work, including young people and the long-term unemployed. We are calling on the Government to send a clear signal to the banks by supporting us today.

Amendment 1 to clause 112 relates to the bank levy. This, too, involves a request for a report. In this instance, we are requesting that the Chancellor, prior to implementing any further reforms to the bank levy, should lay before Parliament a report that considers the impact on the total tax receipts paid to the Exchequer since 2010 by UK banks, building societies, foreign banks and relevant non-banking groups. We want the report to pay particular attention to receipts generated from corporation tax, the bank levy and the bank payroll tax.

It is important to set this proposal in context. In the recent Budget, a consultation was announced on the proposed changes to the bank levy. We are concerned that those changes could lead to the bigger banks paying less as a result of the introduction of a band-based system in which the tax of an individual bank would be capped at an upper limit of £375 million. I know that the Government have said that this measure would be cost neutral, but we are not convinced that it would be of benefit. We have made it clear in the past that, when we are in government, we will put in place a bank levy and use the additional funds raised to expand free child care for working parents of three and four-year-olds from 15 to 25 hours a week. Perhaps that is a debate for another day, however. I shall focus on the bank levy.

We have made it clear all along that a bank levy is not a bad idea in itself. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) has argued in Committee and on the Floor of the House, however, the proposal was unambitious and has been poorly implemented. When the Chancellor announced its introduction in May 2010, he confidently asserted that it would generate more than £2 billion of annual revenues. That is the assertion he has made on several occasions and it has been enthusiastically backed by the Prime Minister.

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[Mr Gauke]

I just make the point that one has to examine the net yield from the bankers’ payroll tax, taking into account the revenue that is lost because there are lower receipts for income tax and national insurance contributions. Just to be clear, the number is £2.3 billion.

[Cathy Jamieson]

Yes, I hear what the Minister is saying and I shall deal with some of that in a moment, because I am concerned to ensure that we get all the sums right and reach figures that everyone would agree on. Again, that is one reason we want this report brought forward, because we are now being told that the levy will generate £2.3 billion in 2013-14, £2.7 billion in 2014-15 and £2.9 billion in each of the following three years. I would give way to him again if he were able to give the details, but perhaps it would be more appropriate if he did so his response later, as it may take time to get them. We do not have the detailed figures, the evidence or the workings to show how those figures are arrived at and whether things are on course to deliver them. That is why it is important to get the report we are calling for today.

Let me say something about the problems with the levy as we see them. As I have said and as my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East has in previous contributions, the Government’s levy lacks ambition. The argument is that the initial levy was set at a relatively low rate, both by international standards and when measured against the scale of the taxpayer subsidies received by the sector during the financial crisis and thereafter. In discussion of the Finance Bill in May 2011, he said:

“The bank levy is a sensible idea in theory, and we broadly support it. However, the yield suggested in the Bill—only £2.6 billion—is not just small but pathetic by international standards”.—[Official Report, 3 May 2011; Vol. 527, c. 482.]

I will happily give way to the Minister if he wants to comment on the international standards, but again, perhaps he will do so when he winds up.

One other problem with the levy is that its two objectives can be seen as a bit of a paradox or even somewhat contradictory. By setting the levy as a tax on bank liabilities in excess of £20 billion and charging a lower rate for more secure long-term liabilities, the Chancellor was actively encouraging the banks to reduce their exposure by moving towards more stable forms of funding.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend has just touched on the central point about the levy: that the Government never had the will to take on the bankers in the first place, as we see if we compare what happened in this country with what happened in the United States. That is why they cannot wholeheartedly support a proper levy on the banks; it is a token levy.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I suspect that if I were to stray into a long debate on what happened in the US versus what happened here, I would see—yes, I do see—Mr Bone’s eye upon me to ensure that I did not yield to that particular temptation. However, I say to my hon. Friend that that could usefully form the subject of another debate at some point, but he makes an interesting point about the will to take on the banks. I want to choose my language carefully because I want to avoid getting into that whole thing of our being seen as aggressively pursuing the banks. I recognise that there are some in the banking sector who understand how badly they got it wrong and who want to see change, but the scale of the problem has not been universally accepted, and nor has the degree of culture change that is required. The Minister has heard Opposition Members talk about that issue many times when discussing other legislation.

Returning to the initial imposition of the levy, the Chancellor also wanted to generate more than £2 billion in annual revenues. One problem was that, as was pointed out earlier, the more the banks changed their behaviour and remodelled their balance sheets, the less money the levy generated. Was the Chancellor unable or unwilling to decide whether he wanted behavioural change or a targeted revenue sum? Was it possible to do both? Some evidence suggests that it was not, because it has not brought in the amount of revenue that he intended.

Not content with devising a levy the dual aims of which are somewhat contradictory, the Chancellor also proceeded to cut corporation tax annually, arguably handing the banks a tax break. In order to ensure that the banks do not benefit from the tax break, the Chancellor has had to increase the levy every time he cut corporation tax. We have consistently raised doubts about the levy’s ability to raise sufficient funds, especially in the context of the cuts to corporation tax. During consideration on Report of the 2011 Finance Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East said:

“The sector will have a tax cut of £100 million in 2011-12, £200 million in 2012-13, £300 million in 2013-14, and £400 million in 2014-15. That is a £1 billion corporation tax cut over this Parliament.”

He continued:

“The Treasury ought to supplement its very modest bank levy plan with the bank bonus tax because it is only fair that those who played such a central role in the global economic downturn make a greater contribution to help to secure the economic recovery by supporting jobs and growth.”—[Official Report, 5 July 2011; Vol. 530, c. 1383.]

I would have thought that that sentiment—that those involved in making some of the decisions that caused the problems have a responsibility to do what they can to secure economic recovery and a change in culture—would be shared by everyone in all parts of the House. A combination of two factors—contradictory objectives and corporation tax cuts—means that the levy has increased on no fewer than seven occasions. It is important for me to lay this out so that the House understands the time scale for what happened with the levy, because it adds weight to our call for a report to consider that in more detail.

Back in February 2011, it was confirmed that the rate would be higher than originally proposed. That was change number one. In March 2011, at the Budget, the levy was increased to offset the effect of the 1% cut in corporation tax and by the autumn statement in November 2011—autumn was already beginning to be stretched as far as we thought possible, although of course, autumn is now in December as far as the Government are concerned—the rates were increased to ensure that tax would raise at least £2.5 billion a year. I think that was a tacit admission that the initial rate was perhaps somewhat timid. In March 2012, at the next Budget, the levy was increased again to offset the 1% cut in corporation tax.

In the next autumn statement, when the autumn had been stretched as far as possible into the first week in December, the levy was increased again to offset the 1% reduction in corporation tax. At the March 2013 Budget, the levy was increased again—guess why: to offset the 1% reduction in corporation tax. In December 2013, again at the autumn statement, in what appeared almost to be a desperate attempt to get somewhere near the £2.5 billion target, the Chancellor increased the levy again and broadened the tax base in an apparent attempt to mitigate the impact of the very behavioural change that the tax is supposed to encourage.

[Jenny Chapman]

Has my hon. Friend done the calculation? I am doing it as she speaks and it sounds as though the Government have raised about £3 billion less than they wanted to from the combined measures.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. I stress that we have proposed today that this report should be undertaken and brought to the House so that hon. Members can be fully informed about what has happened, what has been successful, what has not worked and how we can best look to the future. My hon. Friend might well be interested to know that I was about to say that, following the Chancellor’s latest projections for the bank levy, a contributor to the Tax Journal stated that the continued difficulty in raising the expected yield

“should become a lesson in the problems of saddling a new tax aimed at managing behaviour with a fixed revenue target”.

It seems to me and my right hon. and hon. Friends that the Chancellor has not fully learned the lessons, because he is now consulting on wholesale changes to the levy that would lead to the introduction of a band-based system under which the tax of individual banks would be capped at an upper limit of £375 million. As I said earlier, although the Government claim that that will be cost neutral, there is speculation already that it might lead to a tax cut for the banks that pay the larger share of the levy. That issue was raised in a report in The Daily Telegraph that said:

“Last year, Barclays paid £504 million in levy charges, while HSBC paid £544 million, the most of any bank. Under the draft proposals, Barclays’ bill would have been £129 million lower and HSBC’s would have been £169 million less.”

We are struggling to understand whether that is really what the Government intend. Why do they intend to do things in that way? If we do not see the figures or the working and if we do not understand the overall impact of what the Government are trying to do, the only conclusion we can draw is that this is essentially a secret tax cut for some of the big banks that has been hidden away in the Budget. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about that and why it is not sensible to publish the report that we have reasonably requested. Confidence in the banking system and financial services has not been fully restored, and people in the real world will want to know why it is a priority to give such a tax cut to some of the biggest banks, at a time when working people are worse off and banks are still paying massive bonuses—indeed, in some instances, bigger bonuses than in previous years.

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[Mr Gauke]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, and to respond to this debate. It is always a pleasure to hear the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) speak. I am tempted to respond to her characterisation of the labour market, which almost suggested that we had lost 1.3 million people from employment over the past four years, rather than increased employment by 1.3 million people, but in the interests of time, I will focus on the bank levy.

Clause 112 increases the rate of the bank levy that was set for 1 January 2014 to 0.156%, which will help to ensure that future bank levy receipts meet the Government targets. I also want to highlight the changes that we are making to the bank levy’s design following an operational review in 2013, which we will cover when we debate clause 113 and schedule 22 later in Committee. The changes will help to simplify the bank levy’s design and ensure that it continues to complement improvements in the regulatory regime.

I wish briefly to provide hon. Members with some background. In the June 2010 Budget, the Government introduced a permanent tax on banks’ balance sheet equity and liabilities, which took effect from 1 January 2011. It is designed to ensure that the banking sector makes a fair contribution that reflects its risks to the UK financial system and the wider economy. Alongside wider regulatory reform, the bank levy also provides incentives for banks to move towards more stable funding profiles, reducing the likelihood of liquidity shocks, which can trigger and propagate systemic banking crises. The Government believe that those overarching policy objectives remain appropriate, and the changes being made in clauses 112 and 113 and schedule 22 are in line with that.

In 2010, the Government set a target of £2.5 billion for annual bank levy receipts. We have since increased that target to offset the benefit of corporation tax cuts to the banking sector since the levy’s introduction. Bank levy receipts have fallen short of the targets to date, largely as a consequence of greater than anticipated deleveraging in the sector in response to regulation and the bank levy’s behavioural incentives. However, the Government have remained clear that the target for bank levy receipts is unchanged.

The banking sector needs to make a fair contribution that appropriately reflects its historical costs and future risks to the UK taxpayer. That is why the rate of the bank levy has increased from 0.075% in 2011 to 0.142% in January 2014, and why the changes being made in clause 112, which were announced in the 2013 autumn statement, will further increase the rate to 0.156%, which will be treated as having applied from January 2014. Based on those changes, the independent Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that the bank levy will raise £2.9 billion a year from 2015-16, more than £8 billion in total over the Parliament and close to £20 billion in total by 2018-19.

When the bank levy was introduced, the Government announced that they would review its design in 2013 to ensure that it was operating efficiently. In line with that commitment, a formal consultation was published in July 2013. It considered changes to the levy’s detailed design to make it simpler, fairer and more aligned with recent regulatory developments. The consultation ran for 12 weeks and the views put forward helped to inform a number of changes to the bank levy’s design, which the Government announced in the autumn statement. They included the exclusion from the bank levy charge of protected deposits, which we limited to amounts insured under a deposit protection scheme, with effect from January 2015.

Also from January 2015, all derivative contracts will be treated as having a short-term maturity, the relief that banks receive for their high-quality liquid assets will be restricted to the rate applicable to long-term liabilities, and the bank levy definition of tier 1 capital will be aligned with the new capital requirements directive. Specific liabilities arising from the central clearing of derivatives will be excluded from the bank levy charge, which will be treated as having applied from January 2014. Those changes will simplify the levy’s application and help to ensure that it continues to apply consistently to banks of different size, activity and domicile. They will also strengthen the behavioural incentives for banks to move towards more stable funding profiles and more closely align the bank levy with recent developments in the regulatory regime.

The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) touched upon the redesign of the bank levy. There is no intention to reduce the revenue raised by the bank levy. We are considering allocating banks to different bands on the basis of their balance sheet, equity and liabilities. Each band would correspond with a unique and predetermined charge for the year, paid by every bank falling within that band. We consider that that might provide a more predictable and sustainable model for the bank levy, but we are welcoming views on that as part of our consultation. The changes being considered would have no impact on the forecast yield from the bank levy, and the underlying tax base would remain unchanged and continue to provide incentives for banks to move towards more stable funding.

[Cathy Jamieson]

rose—

[Mr Gauke]

I will give way, but I have very little time left.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the Minister for giving way—I appreciate it given the limit on his time. Will he confirm that his proposal will mean that some of the bigger banks will pay less in bank levy than they have paid previously?

[Mr Gauke]

The Government are consulting on how the measure will operate. The intention is for it to be revenue neutral. Assuming it has some effect, revenue neutral will mean that some banks will pay more and some will pay less. Which ones those will be depends on the precise design, which depends on the consultation.

Amendment 1 was described with customary reasonableness by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun but I will give the customary response, which is that the Government do not consider that there is much to be achieved by accepting it. It would add little to the Bill. HMRC already publishes each year statistics on PAYE, the bank levy, corporation tax and bank payroll tax receipts from the banking sector, although they are not broken down by different groups of banks. The most recent publication—from August 2013—showed that the relevant tax receipts from the banking sector were £21.7 billion in 2012-13.

In the time available, I want to make a point about the bankers payroll tax. In September 2010, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, said

“it will be a one-off thing because, frankly, the very people you are after here are very good at getting out of these things and…will find all sorts of imaginative ways of avoiding it in the future”.

An attempt to repeat that tax would be a mistake.

I fear that, because of the time available, I do not have time to do justice to Opposition new clause 5. I have set out the reasons why the Government believe it is right to introduce a balance sheet tax as opposed to a tax on bankers bonuses. We see no reason to change that approach. The future jobs fund failed to create sustainable employment. Almost 50% of participants claimed benefits again within eight months of starting a future jobs fund job. This Government are doing much more. We have delivered more than 1.6 million apprenticeship starts so far this Parliament and are making it cheaper to employ young people.

In order to give the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun a moment or so to speak at the end, I shall conclude. The changes made by clauses 112 and 113, and schedule 22, will help to ensure that future bank levy receipts meet Government targets while providing a simpler and fairer basis on which the tax applies. I therefore hope that clause 112 stands part of the Bill and urge the hon. Lady not to press amendment 1 and new clause 5 to a Division.

[Cathy Jamieson]

It was a pleasure to hear the valuable contributions of my hon. Friends the Members for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) and for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) on the impact of the Government’s policies on ordinary people.

The Minister referred to my characteristic reasonableness and gave a characteristic response. I will give him the characteristic response from the Opposition—despite his best efforts, I will press the new clause and the amendment to a Division. Both reports are reasonable requests and would be important. I realise that he had a relatively short period in which to respond, but it is disappointing that he does not see fit to produce such reports. He referred to a number of statistics and figures produced by HMRC, and we know of other places where statistics are produced, such as the Office for Budget Responsibility. It would be useful to have all those reports put together in a report for the House to consider.

As I have said, I intend to press new clause 5 and amendment 1 to a Division. I hope that, even at this late stage, the Minister will reconsider his opinion, but I doubt it. I am sure that the Government will give their characteristic response once again.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I wonder if the Minister can tell us why there have been no women on the MPC since June 2010. Why has the Chancellor not appointed a single woman to the MPC over those last four years, and does the Minister agree with Labour that it is time to put that right?

[Sajid Javid]

Appointments to the MPC should always be made on merit and—[Interruption.] Diversity is, of course, always an important consideration. Factors in decisions on appointing external members to the MPC include looking at career training and background as well as ethnicity and gender. [Interruption.] The Government would like to see more women on the MPC and will encourage them to apply. [Interruption.] It is also worth noting that four women have already been part of the MPC.

Currency in Scotland after 2014

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair in this important debate, Mrs Riordan. It has been lively at times, and there has been more heat than light on occasions, but none the less it is about trying to ensure that we have the opportunity to discuss the important issue of currency.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on his superb opening contribution. He laid out clearly and articulately the issues that we have to discuss. We then heard useful contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark).

I want to pick up on a couple of points made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, because she articulated clearly that although many people in Scotland may have an emotional attachment to the idea of Scotland being an independent country, they none the less recognise the importance of the political, social and economic union that has existed over the years, and what an important decision this is for the people of Scotland to make in September. The Scottish National party would sometimes have us believe that everything will stay the same and nothing will change, but at the same time it tries to advance the notion that everything will change. That is not so. Increasingly, people are beginning to see through that false prospectus. A number of hon. Members spelled that out in some detail.

Increasingly, people are beginning to realise that the currency issue is important. For them, it is not just about the macro-economics, because some will, perhaps, not take an interest in that. However, they will take an interest in the money in their pay packets and in their pockets, in their ability to pay their way in the world, and in the impact on their mortgages, credit arrangements, store cards and car loans.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

My hon. Friend is summing up the debate in her usual excellent fashion. Is she struck by the views of young people, who will live with this decision far longer than any of us, particularly the youngsters in Fife who, having heard my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), voted no yesterday?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a valuable contribution, as always. I recognise that this is of huge importance to young people in Scotland. Obviously, young people aged 16 and 17 are, for the first time, have the vote in an important election. Of course, there are many young people here today in Parliament, including some members of the Scottish Youth Parliament, who are here to lobby on votes for 16-year-olds. I am struck by the intelligent way that young people have approached this debate. When it comes to the independence cause, they have not simply rushed to the barricades, as the SNP may, at one stage, have thought they would. They have thoughtfully debated, considered and put forward the arguments, and will come to their own conclusions, as indeed the rest of the people in Scotland will.

I have to say to the SNP that it is becoming rather tiresome to hear, every time anything is said that is not in agreement with the First Minister or his team, that we are somehow scaremongering. It is right and proper to scrutinise the proposals, including the White Paper and all the policies. [Interruption.] Indeed, the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) is agreeing with me. He is an intelligent and articulate man who takes a close interest in all Treasury, banking and financial services sector issues; I gently say to him that it is rather odd that despite that, he continues to trot out the SNP line the whole time, without giving that degree of scrutiny to the proposals made by his political party.

On that point, Professor John Kay, former economic adviser to the First Minister and professor of economics at the London School of Economics and Political Science, said:

“If I represented the Scottish government in the extensive negotiations required by the creation of an independent state, I would try to secure a monetary union with England, and expect to fail…So Scotland might be driven towards the option of an independent Scottish currency.”

He also said:

“Alex Salmond has said I think rather stupidly that there is no plan B. The trouble with having no plan B is you don’t have any negotiating power if you don’t have a Plan B. So there has to be a Plan B. And Plan B has to be an independent currency.”

We are not getting that honesty in the debate, as far as the people of Scotland are concerned. That is important.

[Mr Bain]

My hon. Friend is correct to talk about scrutiny, but of course the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the National Institute for Economic and Social Research have scrutinised the White Paper and concluded that under any of the possible currency options, the pressure on fiscal policy would mean that taxes would have to rise or spending would have to fall. Would not that create more pressure on public services and the social security system in Scotland?

[Cathy Jamieson]

Again, my hon. Friend makes an important point. Perhaps the Minister will shed light on whether there has been any discussion on these issues. The SNP’s current argument seems to be that, in an independent Scotland, it will not take any of the difficult decisions that go along with that. It is not entirely clear yet what will happen to all the benefits and pensions arrangements, and all the rest of it, for some time into the distance. The idea that it will be all right on the night is simply not good enough, as was said earlier.

People have lined up to criticise the SNP’s scenario, including Brian Quinn, former executive director of the Bank of England, Owen Kelly of Scottish Financial Enterprise, Iain McMillan, director of CBI Scotland, the chair of political economy at the university of Glasgow, and the chief European financial economist, who is from a key financial institution. All those people—I do not have time to quote them—have criticised it.

I was told, although I did not hear it personally and will look closely at the transcript, that the Deputy First Minister implied, on “Good Morning Scotland”, that if an independent Scotland did not get its own way on the currency union, it would simply default or walk away from a debt. My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran said that she never thought that she would see a referendum in her lifetime. In all the years I was in the Scottish Parliament, during some of which time I served as a Minister, I never thought I would hear a Deputy First Minister of Scotland shirk responsibility and say that they would walk away from a debt and put Scotland’s economy at risk. I hope that that report from this morning is not entirely accurate. If it is, I hope that the Deputy First Minister now regrets those remarks and looks again at them.

[Stewart Hosie]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I will, briefly, just to show that I am a fair person.

[Stewart Hosie]

One of the few who is fair. In relation to the assertion that the hon. Lady and many of her colleagues have made about the Deputy First Minister—who, of course, cannot defend herself here—I am sure that the hon. Lady would agree that, if we are talking about negotiating a share of assets, which includes the central bank, we need to talk about negotiating a share of the liabilities, so we can take our responsibility for them. The UK Government and their allies cannot have it both ways. They cannot expect Scotland to take on a share of the liabilities while refusing even to negotiate on a share of the assets. Surely, as a reasonable person, the hon. Lady would agree that that makes no sense.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I have listened closely to what the hon. Gentleman says. Again, I gently suggest that if it is so important to have those parts of the United Kingdom that the SNP seems to want to retain, why on earth are we looking to break it up in the first place? Why are the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament not spending more time looking after the issues for which they have responsibility? Only at the weekend, there were reports about what was happening in the health service in Scotland; about the justice system—we have a proud record of a different legal system in Scotland—being dismantled, bit by bit, by the Scottish Government; and about a range of issues to do with social justice that are simply not being tackled by that Government. It would be better for the hon. Gentleman to reflect on that.

We have had an important debate. There has not been enough time, perhaps, to consider all the issues in detail, as we would have liked. I am sure that there will be further opportunities to do so. I wish to hear what the Minister has to say on this occasion; I am sure that I am more likely to agree with some of it than on other occasions, when I would be looking to put him under the kind of scrutiny that the hon. Member for Dundee East should be under today.

Oral Answers to Questions

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Tuesday 28th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I note that, despite a number of opportunities, the Chancellor did not mention the cut to the 50p rate of tax. I wonder whether the Chief Secretary to the Treasury will refer to it in answering a simple question. Will he confirm that people who are earning more than £1 million have received an average income tax cut of more than £100,000 this year—yes or no?

[Danny Alexander]

The figures from HMRC show that the cost of reducing the 50p rate to 45p was about £100 million. It is precisely because the tax was not raising any money that I was willing to support the decision to reduce it, on the basis that we would raise much more money from the same people in different ways. The House might like to be updated on one of those measures. The annual tax on enveloped dwellings—the mansion tax for tax dodgers—is raising five times as much as we thought it would.

Money Transfer Accounts and Remittance Sector

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

We have had an interesting debate. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) for securing the debate. I thank all those who have participated, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), who gave a comprehensive speech, and my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty).

I will be brief, because it is important that the Minister has the opportunity to outline fully the work that has been done since the previous debate, and I am sure my hon. Friends will want to intervene and ask him further questions. It is important to put on the record how much of an interest people have taken in this topic since the debate in July. Having read the transcripts of that debate and looked closely at the parliamentary questions and the responses since then, I suspect it is more with sorrow than with anger that people have called for this additional debate today, because, to be fair, there seemed to be a sense of hope after the previous debate that the Minister had taken on board the importance of the issue. During that debate he gave a personal account of how his own family had been affected and how he wanted to see progress made.

I am trying to be fair. All of us know that sometimes when things go into the machinery of Government, that machinery can grind somewhat more slowly than even Ministers would like. Hopefully, however, the continued voicing of concern even by the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for International Development and so on, has shown the urgent need to tackle the problem, notwithstanding some of the other legal reasons for urgent action.

In his opening contribution, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West outlined how important this issue is, not only for individuals and particular businesses but for the economy, both here and in Somalia and Somaliland. There is also the relationship between the moral issues and the economic issues, if you like: people are trying to provide assistance to individual families and to support businesses, and if that help is not provided there are dangers for the whole economy. We also heard some of the history, going back to the previous debate about the decision that Barclays took at that time and the pressure from campaigners to make Barclays change that decision.

There is an understanding on all sides that we want to do everything we can to ensure that when money is remitted or transferred it is done so legally and safely. I doubt that anyone in any part of the House does not want tough action to be taken on money laundering or any other illegality, or in situations where people are perhaps being unduly and inappropriately pressured over money. However, the point was well made in this debate, and indeed in the previous debate, that some of the smaller organisations and institutions that have been carrying out money transfers have not been found guilty of any misdemeanours or wrongdoing, unlike—as was fairly pointed out—some of our larger financial institutions, which have been involved in practices over the years that have now been brought into disrepute and, in some instances, resulted in serious fines. There are still serious questions to be asked about why there is a problem making progress on this issue. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what work has gone on in relation to the National Crime Agency and to ensure that those aspects are not inappropriately becoming barriers to progress.

I hope that the Minister can also answer the important questions put by my hon. Friends. Some months on from the original debate, during which the commitment was made to establish a working group to take work forward, I find it surprising that my hon. Friends still have to ask who is chairing that group. Has the group met? It has not met. There is now a date for a meeting, but when will it report? Will there be an interim report? What progress has been made? What discussions have taken place in an international context with, for example, the US Treasury and State Department? What discussions have taken place more widely? Are there more reports commissioned by the Government that have not been made public? What is the status of the promised discussions with the British Bankers Association? What can the Government say at this stage, notwithstanding the legal constraints on discussion of the particular issue with Barclays and the possibility of accounts being reopened?

I want the Minister to respond to those questions, although he already has a very long list of questions from my hon. Friends. One important question is about the role of the Financial Conduct Authority. Can he say a bit more about that role this morning?

Having given commitments in the previous debate, and because he obviously understands this subject from a personal perspective, I am sure that the Minister wants not only to listen today, so that he can give answers to the questions that have been put, but to ensure that a degree of urgency is injected into wherever it is in the system that the barriers to action are found. If that does not happen and if we do not have a system that is properly set up and regulated, the danger is that remittances will take place anyway, that the people involved will not be safe, and that there will be further problems down the line.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend is talking about action by Government and Government agencies, and she mentioned the FCA. I understand from the UK Money Transmitters Association that the FCA has started contacting authorised payment institutions to confirm whether or not they have bank accounts that are suitable for safeguarding client funds, as required by the Payment Services Regulations 2009. So action is being taken, but it is action that will result in the closure of these businesses unless a solution is found.

[Cathy Jamieson]

Indeed, and I am grateful to both Oxfam, which has provided me with a briefing, and the UKMTA, which has also provided me with that information. Of course, one of the dangers is that when we begin to investigate these matters, people start to find that there are problems and rather than finding solutions to those problems, the response is, “Well, we will just make sure that it is closed down and doesn’t happen.”

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I apologise for not being here earlier in the debate; I wished to be here, but I had other commitments. The hon. Lady has outlined her concerns, which this House shares, about the £15 billion of remittances that happen each year. Does she agree that it is not only a matter of making the right, legitimate channels available for these transactions to take place but one of restoring confidence in the system? If there is no confidence in the system, people will feel vulnerable, whatever transactions take place.

[Cathy Jamieson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valuable point. At a point in time where even some of the larger financial institutions have seen confidence erode, it is of course important that people can have confidence in the system, every step of the way, and that that confidence is rebuilt.

I would like the Minister to answer the questions that have been put to him, particularly the very pertinent questions about what specific action has been taken since July. Also, will he now give a commitment that he will personally press for and oversee some of the work, and drive it forward across the different Departments, to ensure that there is no more dragging of heels or things getting lost between the different parts of Government, simply because of the Departments’ inertia? I am sure that he will want to take the opportunity to respond to those points.

Debt Advice (FCA Levy)

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have listened intently to the debate; Members may wish to intervene during the course of my remarks. I congratulate the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) on securing this debate and the Backbench Business Committee on seeing the wisdom of holding it. I am sure that it is due to the Committee’s good judgment rather than simple coincidence that we had a Backbench Business debate on payday loan companies last night in the main Chamber, followed by this one. The two debates are linked, and it adds value to be able to follow last night’s discussion with this one. There were 17 Back-Bench speakers last night, not counting interventions, and Members had the opportunity to lay out a range of reasons why tougher action is needed on payday loan companies generally and ways that regulation could be improved.

When I first saw that this debate was going to be about the levy, I feared slightly that people would think the issue was only a technical one and not quite as important, but it has been useful to hear a number of speeches linking the principles of what needs to be done on payday lending and regulation and how it can be put into practice for the greater good. It has been heartening to hear that from Members from all parties; we have not got bogged down in the technicalities of the levy, as we might easily have done.

Anyone who has gone through the Library briefing—I am sure that everyone here has, although perhaps people outside this room have not—knows that it explains in great detail how the levy is calculated and the various different sections and categories. The Minister may want to say something about that and whether, in the longer term, he has any plans to review the levy further. I know that the Government always say that they keep everything under review—he and I often exchange comments on that particular approach—but it might be useful to hear from him whether he has any further work to do on that.

We have heard that although better regulation is of course important, it is also important that we continue to ensure that proper debt advice is available. In his opening speech, the hon. Gentleman made the key point that there is a danger that the Financial Conduct Authority might simply be seen as a collection agency. Several speakers made the point that the Money Advice Service has a flatline budget—I hesitate to use that word—but the Government are not seeking to increase the budget, at a time when we have all heard about and know the pressures on various organisations that provide support. That is a potential problem, and I hope that the Minister will address it in his reply.

We want to ensure that the cost of regulation does not take up all the available resources. That is why I highlight the point about the complexity of the levy as it currently operates. We do not want the FCA and MAS to spend all their time trying to administer it, so that resources do not get to the front line. Another key point made is that we do not want the amount of advice available to be reduced.

On the nature of advice, we want the opportunity to widen the scope for funding. I will return to that, but I want to mention a couple of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), who has a long track record of campaigning on payday loan issues, as do the majority—in fact, all—of the hon. Members here. He made the point early on that we have a unique opportunity to tackle the problem without additional cost to the public purse, a point reiterated by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey). I am sure that it will always be attractive to the Treasury, when we have a problem, if we can identify a potential solution that will not cause additional cost to the public purse, especially at a time when we are trying, as I am sure the Minister will mention, to reduce the deficit and look to the future. That ought to be considered.

I would certainly be concerned by any suggestion that the changes to get more companies paying the levy by bringing them into the scope of the regulation would mean a levelling down in terms of what they pay. The point about the payday loan companies, which has been emphasised in a number of debates, is their potential detriment to individuals, because of the way they operate. They should certainly not get off the hook, particularly as we are hearing that more problems are being identified.

It was also correct to suggest that the FCA should not simply exist to signpost people at particular stages, for example rollover, however important that role is. Nevertheless, we need advice to be available and easily accessible.

I am also concerned about an issue that was raised in the briefings that I have been provided with, for example by Citizens Advice and the StepChange charity. We must not have a perverse incentive whereby the system would mean, for example, that on the issue of write-offs companies were somehow moving to operate in a way that would be detrimental to the individual debtor, so that those companies could somehow avoid paying what would be seen as their fair share of the levy. Lenders should pick up the bill for some of that levy. Again, I hope the Minister will say something about that issue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) talked about the “behind the clock” syndrome and I think it was the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) who referred to carrier bags. I do not want to make this debate sound like a competition, but I spent many years as a front-line social worker providing a lot of welfare benefits advice, among other things. I recall occasions when people had large black bin bags full of information. What never ceased to amaze me at the time was the fact that people had kept all of the paperwork, including every letter that had come in. Quite often, those papers were stacked in fairly neat order, with elastic bands around them, but they were not then dealt with; they had simply been put away because the problem they related to was too difficult to deal with.

One thing that I learned from those experiences was that we do people no favours whatsoever if we do not have a face-to-face discussion and work with them to get them out of the mess they are in. Simply telling someone to go and read a website, or to get information online or even a pamphlet, is not enough; it ought to be an introduction to them, so that they can sit down face to face, assess the scale of the problem and work it out. Again, the importance of that process was raised by a number of hon. Members.

[Caroline Dinenage]

I do not want to bang on about the same subject, but does the hon. Lady agree that sometimes adults lack the necessary literacy and numeracy skills to address the issue of debt and so, even if they wanted to address it, debt is a massive puzzle for them? We also need to look at the ways that we signpost people to address that skills issue.

[Cathy Jamieson]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, and the issue of financial education was raised in the debate in the main Chamber last night. Financial education is important because there are people who have literacy and numeracy problems, which are often picked up at the point that they come for advice. They may not have felt able to tell people before then, but the problem becomes very apparent in a face-to-face meeting with advice workers, who can perhaps assist them to get help and support.

More broadly, financial education in schools is, of course, valuable; I have said that many times. It is the right thing to provide, but if it is only seen as something to be provided in schools that is not enough. There are key points in people’s lives when there is the opportunity to introduce them to different forms of financial education.

[Mr Robin Walker]

As the hon. Lady points out, financial education in schools is very valuable, but it is not the whole solution. Recently I visited a community primary school in my constituency where the local anti-loan sharking team were holding an assembly, which was entirely funded by money confiscated from illegal loan sharks. That is one example of how good work can be funded with no direct cost to the taxpayer and is this debate not another example of that, whereby we can help to fund the good work of debt advice charities and the rest of the sector without any cost to the Exchequer or the taxpayer?

[Cathy Jamieson]

Again, the hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. It reminds me of a previous career, when I was in another Parliament and worked closely with the predecessor of my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield on tackling some of the illegal loan sharks and trying to ensure that they were brought to justice.

Of course, it is important that we consider everything we can do to establish the principle—I think it was referred to as “the polluter pays” principle—whereby the people who cause the problem have a social responsibility and, in this context, a financial responsibility to provide some of the funding to pay for the resources we need to tackle the problem.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) asked if there has been a lack of discussion between MAS and the FCA. Again, I hope that the Minister can enlighten us on that issue, perhaps giving us some more information about the involvement of the two organisations. Also, can he say whether or not he can ensure at this crucial stage that all the organisations are brought together for further discussion? I am almost hesitant to say this again, but, as I have already said, there is sometimes a danger that people involved on the Treasury side would perhaps look in isolation at this issue; they would look at the money flows, the funding streams and so on, without necessarily looking at the people involved. In this context, it is very important to look at the people involved.

[Ann McKechin]

Does my hon. Friend agree that because the FCA is such a massive organisation—in terms of its scale and what it is intended to cover—compared with MAS and because it is just getting off the ground, trying to set some parameters for what the FCA and other organisations need to consider is an important part of the Treasury’s function?

[Cathy Jamieson]

Again, my hon. Friend makes a valuable point. In bringing my remarks to a conclusion, I want to reiterate some of the points that were made in the debate in the main Chamber last night. As she said, the FCA is a new organisation and it has been given a wide-ranging remit. It has consulted on a number of issues and new rules will be introduced for a range of things, but I would not like to see the specific issue of the levy slip through the net. My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West referred to the recommendation for a levy in the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee report as the recommendation that has almost gone “under the radar”. Hopefully it is no longer “under the radar”; as I say, I certainly do not want it to slip through the net because of the FCA’s wide range of responsibilities.

The Minister, who has been listening intently, will have heard the view expressed in both debates on this subject—last night and today—that there is a genuine consensus across the House on this issue, and hopefully people from the FCA and MAS have heard that too. There may be other areas where we would disagree, but there has been a genuine consensus on this issue, which has built up during months, if not years, of campaigning by individuals who have been very committed to tackling this problem and by organisations that have been absolutely at the sharp end and see it every day. Those individuals and organisations have the ideas both to deal with the problems when they are identified and—crucially—to put in place preventive measures. There was some discussion of those measures last night, which include, for example, action on advertising, education and so on, so that we can try to prevent people getting into debt in the first place. However, if they do get into debt, the correct services must be there for them, not only to point them in a direction to get a bit of information but to help them to work their way out of debt, including making some of the lifestyle changes that are perhaps associated with getting out of debt.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

Does my hon. Friend agree that today is really a good time for this debate and that, if people want to see that the levy is not a dry subject and has an effect on individuals, they should know that this week Twitter has the hashtag #cablive, where the real-life experiences of people visiting CAB, and of the volunteers and paid staff who are crucial to helping them, are being demonstrated?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point because, as we discussed last night, this is of course debt awareness week. The comment that I made last night was that for some people this week may be a week of awareness but for others it is how they have to live their lives, to deal with debt problems. I am sure that the information that she has just given will encourage people to follow the process on Twitter and obtain more first-hand information from those who are using these services and those who are providing them.

I want to give the Minister further time to respond to the debate, and to allow for further interventions, because these debates give Back Benchers the opportunity to ask questions. First, however, can the Minister say whether he has already had any discussions with MAS and the FCA about this issue? Does he intend to look in more detail, over the coming months, at the structure and the nature of the levy and whether there could be any improvements there? Will he also consider an idea that we Opposition Members have been advancing, which is that, in addition to the provision of debt advice and money advice resulting from a levy on payday lenders, there should be a levy supporting credit union development and alternative low-cost providers? I hope that the Minister will answer those questions.

I thank all hon. Members who participated in the debate last night and, crucially, in this debate. I am sure that the debate is no longer under the radar. I hope that it will be out there more and that people will see that it is important in the wider scheme of things, as we try to tackle the problem.

Payday Loan Companies

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

We have had a very thoughtful and interesting debate this evening, with 17 speakers in total as well as interventions. Most of the speakers seemed to reach a consensus on a way forward, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) pointed out, the slight exception might be the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), who has just returned to his place. He tried his best to be consensual, but every now and again he was straining at the seams—[Interruption.] I hear someone say that he cannot help himself.

We heard an excellent speech introducing the report from my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), the Chair of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills. I know that we have had a number of debates on the issue and I wondered whether we would be able to reach consensus on the report this afternoon. That has happened and, as a number of hon. Members have said, this is an important time for such a debate, not least because the FCA is considering the responses to the consultation and will be publishing the rules shortly. It is also debt awareness week. I always feel that we should be concerned by debt awareness week—it is good for us and for the organisations that support people as it focuses our attention, but for many people the harsh reality of debt is something of which they are aware not just for one week of the year but every single day.

We have heard once again this evening examples of the cases with which we are all only too familiar that involve people in our constituencies. The Chair of the Select Committee highlighted a number of issues with advertising. He put it very powerfully when he talked about the suggestion that there could be a one-minute verification to decide whether someone could access such a loan. That highlighted why we need action on advertising.

My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West also highlighted the impact of television advertising on children and young people aged 12 to 15. I have raised concerns about the issue in a previous debate, and about how advertising normalises payday loans and such borrowing. Someone might not normally consider such an option, but it can be instant and they can do it without thinking. I was also concerned to hear the story from a teacher about children’s awareness of the payday loan sector as one way of getting the things that one wants quickly. A strong case has been made this evening about advertising on television during daytime, early evening and children’s programmes.

My hon. Friend also made an important point in his opening speech about the need for the Advertising Standards Authority to work with the industry on a code of practice. If everyone were to come together to work on the matter and agree on how to take things forward, that would be excellent. If that does not happen, however, and if there is any delay, we should be prepared to ensure that action is taken.

My hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) raised some of the particular concerns of the city of Glasgow. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the new scheme introduced by Glasgow city council whereby pupils going to secondary school for the first time will be given the opportunity to have a credit union account, with £10 put into each account. That is one way of providing financial education while working creatively with the credit union movement in the city.

A number of Members stressed that it is now time for the FCA to act and various evidence was given from the CAB and StepChange about the level of debt. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) raised concerns that she has pursued for a long time now about the database and access to real-time information. A number of hon. Members talked about the Callcredit announcement and questioned whether it went far enough, as it does not necessarily provide real-time information on how decisions are made. That must be considered in more detail because, essentially, it is no good having information if it is not up to date.

As we have heard, indebtedness is not a new issue. As a former social worker, I well remember spending a lot of time trying to work with families who had to borrow money to pay for the basic necessities of life, without understanding the ongoing costs and how they would pay the money back. Of course, access to online systems and the “press the button, do it now” approach of the payday loan companies make it even easier to borrow now than in the days when the payday lenders of the time went around the doors and persuaded people to take out loans.

We heard some interesting comparisons with work that has been done in the US, Canada and Australia, particularly on roll-overs, and some good questions have been asked. For example, if someone cannot deal with one roll-over debt, why on earth would we want to let them have a second roll-over debt without that being challenged? We have heard concerns about the fact that payday originally meant payday. Of course, now it does not always relate only to people who are in work; many people on benefits and very low fixed incomes are also encouraged to take out these loans.

We have heard concerns about the continuous payment authority and people not understanding what they were getting into. We have heard a call for mainstream banking services to look more at how they support people on low incomes and the important point about financial education being about not only what happens in school but what happens particularly at key points in people’s adult lives, when there is an opportunity to intervene and to work with people to ensure that they understand what they are getting involved in.

A couple of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), mentioned fraud. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) about the implications of the planning system and the problems of payday loan companies opening shops in the high streets.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, for her constituents and mine to be protected, we also need action from the Scottish Government, so that they use their powers to protect our constituents?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, but I do not have time to develop it now because I must now come to a conclusion.

I hope that the payday lending industry will understand the strength of feeling in this debate. To be fair, some Government Members said that they had come round to our way of thinking and are now prepared to back some of the actions that we have been calling for. The industry should look at that. The FCA should take note of the issues that have been raised this evening, and it should listen to the calls for action and the suggestion that it has perhaps not gone far enough.

I will finish by congratulating again the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on the thorough work it has done on the issue and, indeed, all the campaigners who have brought it into the mainstream of opinion and concern, rather allowing it to be seen as something on the margins.

Banking

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

As many hon. Members have said, this has been an interesting debate. Surprisingly, some Members thought there had been a conspiracy to have this debate clash with the Treasury Select Committee, but that was perhaps a conspiracy theory too far, to coin a phrase.

It being the new year and the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act having been passed, I had hoped we might be able to move on. I thought we might have been in a position to debate where to go next, but unfortunately, despite it being the new year, we did not hear anything new from the Minister, just the same tired old Tory lines, which was disappointing. The Minister boasts of his experience in the banking sector, so I had hoped he might have been able to throw some light on the debate, rather than simply trying to bolster his reputation as the Tories’ attack dog, which seems to be his role at the moment. Also, he seems to have a new middle name, because his response to every second question was, “I will come to that shortly”, but I am not sure he ever did. However, I am sure that we will hear more answers from him in due course.

We have heard some excellent contributions this afternoon from my hon. Friends the Members for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) and for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and my hon. Friends the Members for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) and for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore). We also heard interesting contributions from the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who highlighted several issues about bonuses, and from the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), who did not quite stick to the Government line all the way through when he raised issues to do with funding for lending.

We had hoped to raise the tone and tenor of the debate and move on from the banking reform Bill. I think we would all agree that we need our banks to work for the whole economy—for individuals, small businesses and the large business sector—if we are to earn our way out of the cost of living crisis. As I highlighted when we were debating the banking reform Bill, the danger is assuming that the job is done and that no further reform is necessary. Now that that Bill has been passed, our concern, which was reflected by many of my hon. Friends, is that the banks will simply slide back into previous practices or wish to go back to business as usual. [Interruption.] I see some Government Members agreeing with this. That is why we have concerns about bonuses.

As many hon. Members have said today, there is a question mark over how it can be justifiable, in a time of austerity, when everyone else is being asked to do their bit, for bankers to seek excessive bonuses of over 100% of their annual salaries. I know the Minister said that nothing has been put forward by RBS yet and that he would consider it when the time came—I suppose that will be “shortly”. Members of the public watching the debate and the media, hearing the news and looking at the newspapers want to see a signal that the Government believe, as the Opposition believe, that taking forward these excessive bonuses is not the correct approach.

[Mr MacNeil]

What does the hon. Lady think could be done with the money currently put in the bonus pot? What else could the banks do with that money if their bonuses were curbed? How else could they spend it; what could they do with it?

[Cathy Jamieson]

The hon. Gentleman will know that Labour’s policy, which I am sure he will support, is to use the bankers bonus tax to fund a youth jobs guarantee. That would benefit Scotland, too, which I am sure he would approve of.

Our motion highlights the fact that we have not yet done enough to boost competition in the banking industry—by encouraging the challenger banks, for example. We have not looked at expanding the mutual sector either. Some hon. Members provided examples of new banks coming forward, but we should acknowledge that that has not yet challenged the main banking sector in the way that we would like.

We should recognise that public trust in the sector is still at a low level. I remain concerned that, during the course of the banking Bill, the Government rejected both the fully independent licensing system for bankers and the idea, raised again in today’s debate, of imposing a duty of care to customers and all those working in the banking sector—a fiduciary duty. Opposition Members have consistently argued that those two policies would help to reform banking to make it work in the interests of customers and the economy rather than of the bankers themselves. Despite the changes in the banking Bill, the original Vickers recommendations have been rather watered down, particularly in respect of competition.

A number of hon. Members discussed and provided examples of lower bank lending to business, with it falling far short of what we need to boost jobs and growth so that our economy can recover. It was mentioned that the Bank of England has reported a record £4.7 billion contraction in lending to business—the biggest drop in more than two years and nearly five times the recent average monthly decline of £1 billion. That follows the decreases in lending in the UK by 3% each year since the start of the financial crisis amidst the failure of the other schemes that the Government introduced such as Project Merlin and its business bank, which has not had the intended impact.

Little wonder, then, that the Government belatedly heeded Labour’s call to refocus on the funding for lending scheme—a point made by the hon. Member for Northampton South—and introduced change in an attempt to improve the supply of credit both to big business and to SMEs. Time after time, however, we have heard that small businesses in every constituency have been unable to access credit because of the lack of availability of loans and that the terms on which credit was offered often made it more difficult for them to take it. Many report that they simply do not ask for credit, believing either that they will not get it or that the terms will be prohibitive.

It was interesting to see a recent research report from the peer-to-business lending platform, rebuildingsociety.com, showing that SMEs have stated that more than 21% of SMEs continue to suffer those restrictions. That is why 1 million SMEs have seen the lending terms from their bank worsen over the past five years. It is all very well to say that the money is there, but the businesses are not applying for it and are not going to the banks to ask for it. The reality is that nearly half of those who responded in that particular survey have had their interest rate and their overdraft increase, while a third have had their lending facilities cut. More than one in 10 SMEs did not even approach their banks for a loan, because they believed that they would be unsuccessful.

We fear that things are sliding back to “business as usual”. We are concerned about the whole question of bankers’ bonuses and bankers’ pay. I know that during Prime Minister’s Question Time today the Prime Minister suggested that he did not want the overall cost to increase, but that failed to take account of the public’s concern about the fact that individuals in the banking sector who are already highly paid are able to receive bonuses amounting to twice their annual salaries.

Figures from the European Banking Authority, published at the end of 2013, reveal that the financial rewards handed to the City’s highest-paid bankers rose by a third last year, and that more than 2,000 bankers in the United Kingdom earned more than £1 million. That means that the UK contains 12 times as many high earners as any other country. Top bankers picked up bonuses averaging 3.7 times their basic salaries, a figure that has risen since 2011. The public want to know who is on their side rather than on the side of the bankers, so that they can be sure that that does not continue, which is why we initiated today’s debate.

My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) pointed out that Labour had led calls for the Competition and Markets Authority to be forced to begin, immediately, a full market study of competition in the retail and SME banking sectors, and I hope that the Government will take that on board.

The public want to see a signal that the days of excessive bonuses are over, and they want to see it now. We do not believe that the present position is acceptable, but nothing that the Government have said today has sent that signal to the public. Perhaps the Exchequer Secretary is about to send it now.

Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Wednesday 11th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Both cases would be a deterrent. A key point of the change to criminal sanctions is that they would apply if a senior manager took part in any reckless action—there is a very strong test, as we have just heard—that led to the failure of a bank. It would not be appropriate to perform a legal analysis of what has happened in the past because we do not have the full facts before us, but if a board full of senior managers makes a decision on, let us say, a potential acquisition and they fail to carry out proper due diligence or they deliberately ignore certain risk factors, and that eventually leads to a failure and collapse of that bank, that will be an example of the situation that the new offence tries to capture. It is reasonable to say that, as those senior managers will be aware of the new criminal sanction, which did not exist before, it will bear on their minds when they make those important decisions. The Government amendments in this group will improve standards and the culture in banking.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have listened with interest to the Minister. May I first add my thanks to all the members of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, who have done us a great service in examining the issues in great detail? They include not only Members of this House but Members of the other place—the Archbishop of Canterbury, my noble Friend Lord McFall, Lord Turnbull and Lord Lawson. Other Members in the other place, including my noble Friends Lord Eatwell, Lord Mitchell and Baroness Hayter, have ensured that particular issues have been put on the agenda.

It would be remiss of me not to say a few words about how we have arrived where we are today—considering a vast number of Lords amendments at this stage. The concerns about that have been well rehearsed during discussion of the Bill and how it has been brought forward and considered. The Government commissioned the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards to ensure that recommendations could be added to the Bill, but we had a very thin Bill for Second Reading and in Committee. The commission recommended a three-month gap between the publication of the Bill and the commencement of the Committee stage, but the Government rejected that idea. Instead, this House had to consider the partial Bill before the final report on standards and culture had been published. It is pertinent to reflect on that, given some of the comments made by the Minister. Many of the issues that will be taken forward when the legislation is enacted will still depend on judgments being made and on getting the message across that the culture of banking, at whatever level, has to change. That would have been helped by further scrutiny at various points.

We must also remember that the Government’s response to the commission’s report was published only three or four hours before we started considering the Bill on Report. We had 183 amendments tabled during the next stage of the Bill, and I wish to put on record our concerns about that method of legislation. The Bill is now three times bigger than the one that was originally introduced, and consideration of Lords amendments took place only a couple of days after Third Reading—again, without much opportunity to consider matters in detail.

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is detailing, forensically and importantly, the logjam that this process has produced. Does she agree that if we had had longer, organisations and groups outside the House, which feel very strongly on these issues, would have had more opportunity to make representations? The Government’s failure to allow that, by tabling these amendments as they have done, has circumscribed the public process.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is vital that the public has confidence in the process. The public need to know that the culture of banking will change; that we have given the Bill thorough scrutiny; and that we have considered and put in place every possible method to limit bad judgments and errors in the future. In the end, however, it will be down to individuals, and from my experience of various pieces of legislation I would always guard against the notion that any individual piece of legislation will guarantee that nothing will go wrong in the future. That always depends on individuals making judgments. It is important that we get the culture right so that individuals within it make judgments not just because they fear that they will be prosecuted and go to jail, but because they believe they are doing the right thing by their customers and by the wider economy.

[Mr Love]

Before my hon. Friend moves on, does she agree that while we should congratulate Members in the other place on the role that they played in amending the Bill, it would have been correct to delay the Bill so that the House of Commons had proper time to scrutinise the changes recommended by the commission, rather than leaving that to the other place?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. It would have stood us in good stead had we had such an opportunity. I have only been a Member of Parliament for a relatively short time, and others will have much more experience, but it seems to me unusual to have so many amendments at this stage of a Bill. External bodies have made significant representations at this stage, which is also unusual and shows the strength of feeling about the issue of banking and its culture. It also shows that people have been thinking about how to future-proof the Bill, not simply to repair damage done in the past, but to ensure that we do all we can for the future. Some people may feel that this has been a tick-box exercise and a part of the process that does not matter as much, and it is rather sad if that has been the case.

We know that we have a huge amount more to do. Only today we have seen the latest news about Lloyds bank being fined again. It is also fair to say that as the weeks and months have unfolded during the Bill’s passage, we have seen various situations emerge. I have written to the Minister on the recent issues on forex, and we have also had the sad events at the Co-operative bank and the outcome of investigations into the LIBOR rigging. Those all show that more issues may arise that will have to be dealt with properly, and we want to ensure that the legislation we put in place is able to do that.

[Emily Thornberry]

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the definition of senior bankers as those who would be liable to be prosecuted? Is it sufficiently clear and is it felt that it covers those people who really would be directing proceedings?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes another interesting point. She has already raised the likelihood of criminal proceedings, and in that context the Minister made comparisons with other legislation. I was concerned about the comparison with legislation on corporate manslaughter, which my hon. Friend obviously knows a considerable amount about. We have to ensure that definitions are as tight as possible, so that things do not slip through the net at a later stage. I hope the Minister will be able to provide clarity on those concerns.

We wish to ensure that Lords amendment 41, on professional standards, stays in the Bill. Earlier this year, the Government committed to implementing the main recommendations of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. Those recommendations included the creation of the new criminal offence of reckless misconduct by senior bankers. We want to ensure that that is as tight as possible. As the Minister outlined, the Government also agreed to introduce a new two-tier authorisation process for bank staff.

Our concern is that the Government have consistently failed to go far enough on the professional standards required of bankers. When the Bill was first introduced, Ministers resisted, on three separate occasions, Opposition attempts to put tougher professional standards in the Bill. Introducing the proposal at an early stage would have allowed us the opportunity to debate and finesse it, if required. At that stage, we included proposals for an annual health check on senior bankers. Indeed, Labour first pushed for a licensing regime with an annual validation of competence during the Committee stage of the Financial Services Bill in March 2012, so we have been pressing this case for a lengthy period of time.

Lords amendment 41 states that there needs to be

“minimum thresholds of competence including integrity, professional qualifications, continuous professional development and adherence to a recognised code of conduct.”

The recognised code of conduct is important. The then Minister, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), opposed the amendment, saying:

“I…argue very strongly that the amendment is not necessary. In fact, it could have unintended consequences.”––[Official Report, Financial Services Public Bill Committee, 1 March 2012; c. 235.]

I cannot recall what those unintended consequences he feared were. Given that the Government have now seen fit to change their view, I am sure they no longer have those concerns.

A similar amendment was tabled again in April 2013 to this Bill and once again it was voted down by the Government. We on this side of the House never give up: if we think something is the right thing to do, we will come back and come back again. We tabled the same amendment again in July 2013, and again the Government failed to support it. We tabled the amendments because we believe that the persons we are talking about must have adequate standards of competence and integrity. The debate on managing the process and legislating for it may seem technical, but it is important for people in the real world to know that we are trying to introduce reforms. There has been a degree of discussion across the House, and I accept that, but people need to know that we are trying to introduce reforms that complement the attempts to change the culture of the banking sector.

[Mr Marsden]

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend as she lists the specific attempts that we on this side of the House have made to bring this into clear sight for the Government. Is it not worrying that the Government seem to have reacted as though we need do something only when the deathwatch beetle in these financial institutions has done its work and we need only press on the institution for it to collapse into powder? Unless we press the Government, there will be no mechanism to examine the process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Cathy Jamieson]

We pressed for an earlier introduction of the measure so that we could debate and finesse it if necessary. However, the Government were prepared to move only at the last minute, through a successful amendment in the other place, and it is disappointing that they now want to strike it down.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making a strong case. I, too, served on the Committee and witnessed our efforts on this matter. Why have the Government been on the back foot throughout the process? We are talking about the culture of banking, but I wonder whether there is an issue with a Government culture of continual caution, rather than the challenge that ought to be presented to some of those interests in society that have failed our country.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I do not know what was in the Government’s mind, but in Committee the Bill was very thin. We raised the matter on a number of occasions, but the Government resisted every attempt to amend the Bill in Committee, apart from on one minor detail. In retrospect, that is not the way to produce the best possible legislation. The Bill will undoubtedly have been improved by the end of the process—I do not detract from the work that has been done—but it would have sent a stronger message to the general public and the financial services industry that this place took the matter seriously if the Government had accepted amendments at an early stage.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

As a member of an accountancy body that deals with police professional standards and continuing professional development, I understand this issue. I also understand that the financial services industry is diverse, with many different roles. Has the hon. Lady tried to list all those roles and thought about what professional qualifications and standards are appropriate to each and every one?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. Our approach has been to suggest that that responsibility lies, rightly, with the Financial Conduct Authority. It would not be for me, as a shadow Minister, to list those roles. In relation to the definition of a professional, it is important for people to have professional development, with qualifications, on a continuous basis. One fundamental issue for professions is an adherence to a code of conduct. We tabled amendments on that consistently because we believe strongly that that is important. The wider world wants to know that the banking industry culture has changed and that malpractice, which unfortunately is still coming to light, is being dealt with.

[Mr Love]

As a member of the parliamentary commission, I note that despite our many recommendations, which my hon. Friend has illustrated, six years on from the credit crunch there are continuing difficulties with the culture of the banking system. Is it not the case that we need to do more to change that culture, and that we need to do it now?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If we believe the Bill to be the end of the story, we will do a disservice not only to the hard work done already, but to the industry and to the wider public. I hope the Minister and the Government will take that on board. We must always be vigilant and look to the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Garnier]

Is the shadow Minister aware that the banks have already initiated the creation of a professional banking standards body?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that comment. I know that he has done considerable work in his role on the commission, but it is important that these issues be put on the record. It would have been useful to consider them in Committee, and I mention them now to show that significant pressure has been applied to move things forward and bring about change. The Government appeared to resist that and some of the commission’s recommendations until, of course, their recent change of heart following their defeat in the other place on the amendment for the licensing regime. At that point, they felt they had to bring forward their own plans.

The Opposition might have expected the Government to be reasonably gracious and accept the decision of the other place, but today they have tabled an amendment to disagree with and remove Lords amendment 41 from the Bill. To be fair, what they have tabled, under pressure to replace that amendment, is better than nothing, but it does not go anywhere near as far as the amendment they wish to strike out. The main difference essentially concerns the code of conduct. Lords amendment 41 states specifically that the

“licensing regime must…apply to all approved persons exercising controlled functions, regardless of financial sector;…specify minimum thresholds of competence including integrity, professional qualifications, continuous professional development and adherence to a recognised code of conduct and revised Banking Standards Rules”.

That is important, given that the Government’s position does not call specifically for a code of conduct. In some ways, their regime legislates for the commission’s recommendations, but by failing specifically to legislate for an open and transparent code of conduct, they risk failing to address some of the ethical issues surrounding so-called casino banking. Their more permissive amendment does not focus specifically on a code of conduct.

Several other hon. Members wish to speak, so I shall conclude with some brief comments about remuneration. As hon. Members might be aware, the Opposition have given considerable thought to the regulation of bankers’ remuneration, and there remain certain issues that the Government must consider before the general public can have confidence in the industry. The public find it difficult to understand, and have concerns about, the culture of high risk, high reward that was evident in the previous system and which contributed to the crisis.

[Mr Love]

Does the banking industry not make it more difficult for the public to understand, given that, even in these difficult times, it has gone back to the massive bonus culture we have all been complaining about?

[Cathy Jamieson]

Once again, my hon. Friend is absolutely correct. The general public expected the industry to show some humility and make every effort not only to repay the taxpayer, where appropriate, but to reflect on its actions, perhaps take the view that this culture was now outdated and move on and operate differently.

The general public’s concern will not be alleviated by the latest list of scandals. We have had LIBOR, EURIBOR, PPI—payment protection insurance—forex, yen LIBOR—the list seems to go on and on. Almost every day, every week, every month, something else is being put into the public domain. We have recently heard concerns about lending from RBS, with businesses having gone into administration. It is right and proper, of course, that these issues are investigated. We continue to talk about these issues, but however much we will things to change, people are concerned that if the bankers do not accept that their culture has to change, we will just continue to talk and put legislation in place, but without the messages having got through. I believe that the general public are particularly concerned about that.

As I said, we believe that the amendment unsuccessfully launched in the other place should remain in the Bill. I am disappointed that the Government have chosen to disagree with it and want to strike it out. I do not expect the Minister to change his view at this stage. I am sure he will revert to the position held in Committee, which was to disagree with us on this matter.

[Mr Tyrie]

Before addressing the amendments in the group, I would like to say a few words—this is the only and last opportunity to do so—about the work of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. The task that Parliament set it was

“to consider and report on: professional standards and culture of the UK banking sector, taking account of regulatory and competition investigations into the LIBOR rate-setting process”

and on

“lessons to be learned about corporate governance, transparency and conflicts of interest, and their implications for regulation and for Government policy…and to make recommendations for legislative and other actions.”

That was a very large canvas. The backdrop was a profound collapse of trust in parts of the banking sector—triggered by, among other things, deep lapses in banking standards.

We should bear it in mind, however, that the banks were only partly responsible for all these problems, and that the commission’s proposals represent only part of the solution. On the first point, responsibility for the problem also lies with regulators, central banks, Governments, auditors, risk-rating agencies and consumers, both retail and wholesale, who over-borrowed. They all need to take their share of the responsibility.

On the second point—finding the solutions—the Banking Commission’s proposals need to be set alongside both reforms to the regulatory structure, such as the creation of the Prudential Regulatory Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority after the abolition of the Financial Services Authority, and the structural reform of the banks, as proposed by Sir John Vickers.

I doubt whether the Government or the man who led the regulatory changes, Sir John Vickers—or indeed any member of the Banking Commission—thinks that, even taking together all the proposals we have put forward, we can solve everything. In any case, many on the commission were sceptical about the extent to which culture can be changed by legislation—a point made from the Front Bench earlier this afternoon. Legislation can, however, play an important role by incentivising good behaviour and penalising bad. Nevertheless, we concluded that, if fully implemented, our proposals should put us in a better place to protect taxpayers and the country from systemic risk and to protect consumers from lapses in standards.

As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) said a few moments ago, there will continue to be regulatory failures, so only with the exercise of judgment and a good deal of vigilance are even these proposals likely to make a big difference in the long run. Our job today is narrower—to complete the task of making sure that those responsible for exercising that vigilance have the statutory tools to do the job.

--- Later in debate ---

It was clear on Report that the Government’s commitment to implement our proposals was, frankly, somewhat lukewarm. Our first report was cherry-picked, and of the two other reports that had made recommendations, one, on proprietary trading, was ignored, and the other, the final report, received only a partial commitment for implementation. So I am delighted to report that there has recently been a dramatic change of heart from the Government. Over the past few weeks, this Bill has been transformed.

[Cathy Jamieson]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned proprietary trading. Is he now satisfied that the Government’s recent actions take account of all the commission’s recommendations?

[Mr Tyrie]

Broadly, yes. Given that I am already stretching things a little in my opening remarks, I will try to deal with prop trading at the most appropriate parts of my speech—but the short answer is, as I say, broadly yes.

The commissioners met yesterday to discuss progress. We believe that the Government have converted the lion’s share of the Banking Commission’s recommendations into statutory action, where required. It is worth listing what has changed. The following amendments have been made to the Bill in order to implement our recommendations: electrification of the ring fence has been considerably improved since Commons Report stage; an independent review of the ring fence, which can consider the full separation of the banking industry, has been introduced; the Banking Commission’s recommendations on prop trading, which we just discussed, have, for the most part, been implemented; the proposals for the senior managers regime have been improved; a certification or licensing regime has been added to the Bill; a proper definition of a bank—the Bill’s definition was defective when it left this place, and it was a major lacuna—has been added to the Bill; the PRA has acquired a competition objective to complement that of the FCA; and audit requirements have been tightened for systemically important firms.

Furthermore, a good number of undertakings and assurances have been given in response to specific recommendations. Most importantly perhaps, the bank will almost certainly be given the Financial Policy Committee responsibility for the leverage ratio, and the Government have said that they will legislate to that effect after a review. We would otherwise have had to wait until 2017-18 to have that considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Tyrie]

In some cases, the “deal”, as the hon. Lady called it, is accompanied by a memorandum of understanding, in order to achieve exactly the result that we intend by means of special measures. However, the primary purpose of special measures is to provide a tool that need not lead to escalation and full enforcement. That is a step back from the example given by the hon. Lady.

We were also assured that there would be a review of the system of enforcement decision making, which is currently very unsatisfactory. We had proposed that the regulatory decisions committee should be separated further from the enforcement division of the Financial Conduct Authority and given statutory autonomy in relation to its decisions. The Government did not accept that proposal, but they did accept the need for the issue to be re-examined and the need for a fresh and independent pair of eyes to look at each enforcement action before it proceeds, and a review is now to be carried out.

The important issue of remuneration was raised, later in her remarks, by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun. The PRA has committed itself to aligning the maturity of the rewards for bankers with the maturity of the risks that they have incurred. That is crucial. It is the collecting and taking of bonuses in return for the creation and selling of a new financial instrument or tool when, although the full risks will not mature for many years, the individuals concerned have had the money in advance that has created so many misaligned incentives and so much poor behaviour. Those individuals need to know, even several years later, that there may be a clawback, or, better still in most cases, that their bonuses are deferred. They need to know that the product had better be robust enough to survive the test of time before they start selling it.

Let me now mention a few measures that the commission did not succeed in inserting in the Bill. I shall not describe any of them in detail—although I note that when I have tried to deal briefly with the measures that I have described so far, Members have intervened to ask me about a number of them.

Both the Select Committee and the commission concluded that the governance of the Bank of England was still in a mess, and would have to be sorted out. The Bank of England still has no board worthy of the name, and the cross-cutting lines of responsibility and accountability between various new institutions are, to put it mildly, very confused. One of the most senior people in the Bank told me recently that he thought the situation was like the Schleswig-Holstein question: the former Governor probably understood it, and one other guy had forgotten it—and the third was this person himself, whose name I had better not reveal on the Floor of the House.

We also failed to achieve change with our proposal to abolish United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd. UKFI has been exposed as a fig leaf: it seems to be of very little practical use. The Labour Government’s intention in introducing it was good, but when the Government want to intervene directly in the activities of institutions they simply do so, and UKFI does not seem to be performing the “buffer” function that was intended for it.

We argued that the regulator should have a duty to compensate whistleblowers who had been disadvantaged by their firms. There are still risks, at least perceived risks, for whistleblowers, which will tend to deter them. It is a remarkable feature of the current crisis that there has been so little whistleblowing, and I am not yet convinced that we have managed to sort the matter out.

[Cathy Jamieson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Tyrie]

I will give way again, but I do want to get on to the amendments.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generosity. The question of whistleblowers was raised in a Labour amendment in Committee. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the Government must return to it in the future?

[Mr Tyrie]

I think that, in the first instance, it is the job of regulators to advise us—we shall see whether they do—and that it is the job of Parliament to keep an eye on the position. The Treasury Committee will need to be vigilant.

We failed to secure the abolition of the strategic objective of the FCA, although we see no logical reason why it should remain. It seems to serve as a licence to allow the FCA to do whatever it wants, and to override its own operational objectives. We also failed to secure a statutory duty for the Governor to raise the issue of excessive lobbying by banks. It is regrettable that there is to be no statutory duty to require the production of a second set of accounts designed to identify systemic risks in the balance sheets of banks, and we will ask regulators to return to that issue.

Nevertheless, if everything is taken into account, it is clear that the commissioners in the House of Lords won the argument, and secured the lion’s share of the measures proposed by the commission. Although the group has been depleted by the loss of Baroness Kramer to the Government, the remaining four have worked assiduously and very persuasively to improve the Bill, and, on behalf of the commissioners in the House of Commons, I thank them heartily. Let me also record my appreciation of the constructive way in which Treasury Ministers have engaged with me, and with other commissioners, on these subjects in recent weeks. They have been extremely helpful, as have their officials, and that has enabled us to make rapid progress. What is more, and equally important, the Government have made clear their support for a number of measures—some of which I have mentioned—that it will be the duty of regulators to implement. As I have said, the work of the regulators, and the supervision of it, will be at least as important as the statute itself

That brings me to the statute itself, and to the amendments that are before us. The first major change that is proposed is the introduction of a senior managers regime. One of the commission’s central objectives was to make a reality of individual responsibility, particularly at senior levels. I lost count of the number of witnesses from failed institutions who were not prepared to take personal responsibility for what was going on in their firms. In principle this should have been the task of the approved persons regime, but it was a disaster. It failed both at ensuring that competent people were appointed and at checking up on their subsequent performance.

The commission concluded that the APR was a complex and confused mess that did not perform any of its supposed roles adequately. It had become little more than a bureaucratic, box-ticking exercise. Its unsuitability has been illustrated by the fact that it seemed to pass the recently departed chairman of the Co-op bank as fit and proper to run a bank. Another indication of its irrelevance was the fact that most of those responsible for steering our major banks on to the rocks over the past five years were not even reassessed for their suitability after those banks had failed. The APR gave us the worst of all worlds: the appearance of regulatory oversight and the reality of none.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

Yes, I can confirm that. Although it remains for the regulator, once set up, to deem the regulated systems, we envisage that that will be part of its scope. My hon. Friend will know that the issue is being considered right now through a proposed European Union initiative. We would expect the regulator to take that into account as well.

[Cathy Jamieson]

What analysis have the Government undertaken of the impact of designating card payment systems for regulation? If the system will not come in until spring 2015, is there not a genuine danger of blight in terms of planning the way forward?

[Sajid Javid]

Before we made the final decision to create the regulator, a full consultation was carried out. We received input into that consultation from many stakeholders, and that formed part of the analysis of how the regulator could carry out its function, as well as the importance of having such a regulator. We expect not only that the regulator will be fully up and running in around 2015, but that once the Bill receives Royal Assent the FCA will begin the process of setting it up early next year. The FCA has resources that can be called on, and it has already started working on exactly how the regulator would operate, so I think that it will be able to start at least some of its work sooner than 2015.

Amendments 135 to 152 establish a special administration regime to be known as the financial market infrastructure, or FMI, administration. Inter-bank payment and settlement systems are integral to the efficient operation of the financial system, processing transactions worth hundreds of billions of pounds a day. Currently, if such a system becomes insolvent, it will typically enter the normal administration procedure and the administrator will be under a duty to look after the interests of the company’s creditors without regard to the implications for the wider UK economy. In those circumstances, the continued operation of crucial payment and settlement services could be threatened, which could have a significant adverse impact on the market and the wider economy. The amendments will ensure the continuity of crucial service provision of recognised inter-bank payment systems and security settlement systems in a time of crisis by imposing a duty on an FMI administrator to maintain the company’s crucial services during administration.

The key features of FMI administration are: the FMI administrator is placed under a duty to maintain the company’s crucial services during the period of FMI administration; the Bank of England is given the ability to apply to the court to place a relevant company into FMI administration and has conferred on it a power of direction over the FMI administrator; powers are granted allowing for the property, rights and liabilities of the relevant company to be transferred; and restrictions are established on early termination of contracts for the supply of certain goods and services to a company that has entered FMI administration.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend will know that the FCA currently has an objective to promote competition, and I know that he supports that. The Government have accepted the recommendation from the commission to give this secondary objective to the PRA, so those two objectives for the key regulators—the FCA and the PRA—will make a difference. If my hon. Friend has some further suggestions for the future, I will certainly take a closer look at them.

The FCA’s consumer panel, which represents the interests of consumers, is well placed to communicate its views to the PRA, and in the other place the Opposition have called for a role for the FCA’s consumer panel. Following constructive debates in the other place, I am pleased that the Government have been able to include amendment 156, which delivers the Government’s commitment to ensure that the FCA’s consumer panel can provide its views to the PRA effectively. This was warmly welcomed on both sides in the other place and by the chair of the consumer panel.

The amendments will simplify day-to-day operations for building societies, other banks and all the other entities that I have mentioned. They will enable banks and other institutions to compete on a more level playing field and improve things as suggested in the Bill and by the commission and others. I commend them to the House.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I will develop my arguments in a moment, but I give notice that at the appropriate stage we will seek to divide the House on both of the amendments that we have tabled in this group.

I shall start with the payments system regulator, because I was somewhat surprised by the number of representations on the Bill from the industry, even at this late stage, including on the payments system regulator. The Minister has responded to interventions on that point, but I hope that, when he has the opportunity to respond later, he will address some of the questions raised by the industry, such as the concerns expressed by VocaLink. Although it has said that it is broadly supportive of the regulator and welcomes the change in the Government’s position, it is none the less very keen to ensure that there is no planning blight—a gap between the point at which the legislation becomes law and the time at which the system would be fully operational.

We have also had representations from other sectors of the industry, including Visa and MasterCard, on the need for a level playing field and ensuring appropriate and clear definitions of which payment systems come under the regulator, taking into account the broad range of players that facilitate payments for consumers and businesses. Further representations have been made about the need to look in detail at the whole system and the challenges of establishing the PSR, creating the right skill set and ensuring that it operates correctly. The work load of the regulator will also need to be taken into account as part of its remit.

The Minister said that he believed that the FCA had the resources to ensure that the system will be set up on time and will make progress as planned. I contrast that to the approach on payday lending, and I shall move on now to considering that issue.

At the outset, I must say that we welcome the Government’s U-turn on the issue of capping the costs of the controversial payday loans. [Interruption.] I hear the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) saying that that was not a U-turn. I gently remind him that the Government have repeatedly refused demands to deal with legal loan sharks. They now appear to have been dragged, kicking and screaming to their current position as a result of pressure from Labour and countless other campaigners, including many of my hon. Friends in the Chamber today who will no doubt wish to speak.

[Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con)]

rose—

[Cathy Jamieson]

Let us remember that, during the passage of the first Financial Services Bill, Labour tabled amendments to give powers to the FCA to cap the cost of credit. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain why the Government opposed them.

[Mr Newmark]

I am sure we all agree that the abuse of payday lending is a scourge, and has been a scourge for many years, on our constituents’ lives. The hon. Lady seems to have a form of selective amnesia. Perhaps she can explain to the House why, during 13 years in power, Labour did absolutely nothing to deal with this pernicious form of payday lending.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would explain why the Government opposed Labour’s amendments. I will come on to talk about the explosion of the payday sector, particularly in the past couple of years on this Government’s watch. [Interruption.] It is no good the hon. Gentleman shaking his head and saying, “Oh come on.” We have the opportunity now to tighten up legislation. That is what I wish to do.

[Stephen Doughty]

I apologise for omitting to mention my membership of the national committee of Movement for Change, which has been campaigning on this issue, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Does my hon. Friend share my surprise at the continual chuntering from the Government Benches? As she rightly says, there has been an explosion in the past few years on this Government’s watch, and they have been dragged, kicking and screaming to this point. I have seen an explosion of these stores on high streets across Cardiff, and an explosion in cases of people who have got into trouble with payday lenders.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes valuable points, which I will come on to address.

The Government opposed the proposals initially, but eventually gave in and passed their own amendments in the other place. The FCA has so far failed to use its powers to introduce a cap. There were concerns that unless pressure was applied it would not necessarily have been able to speed up new powers, and we could have seen a further delay in real-time monitoring across the high-cost loan sector. That is why, some months ago, the Leader of the Opposition promised to introduce a cap. He also suggested an extension to a levy on payday lenders’ profits, which would be used to double the level of Government funding for alternative low-cost providers, such as credit unions, for those struggling with the cost of living crisis.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I am sure my hon. Friend agrees that, had there been an agreement earlier, some of the people still waiting for protection that will not appear until early 2015 would be protected by now. I share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) that the sector’s visible expansion in recent years is remarkable. In many years of living in my city, I have never before seen such proliferation of this kind of lending, let alone the advertising on television.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. Members in all parties will have seen the sector’s expansion on their high streets. I do not normally refer to the Daily Mail, but it published an article on the increase in payday loan advertising, which is a concern. I am cautious about the process of normalisation, particularly children and young people seeing these businesses on our high streets and in advertising.

We must remember the extent of the problem of payday lenders charging interest rates of up to 4,000%, for example, on temporary loans taken out by desperate families who often have nowhere else to turn. Someone commented earlier that so-called legal loan sharks did not break the legs of those who borrowed from them like illegal loan sharks perhaps would, but we have to understand that the many desperate families who turn to these services to borrow, sometimes for the basic necessities of life, often end up broken in different ways.

Up to 5 million families plan to borrow money from payday lenders in the next six months; as we have heard, between 2009 and 2012 the market more than doubled to about £2.2 billion; more than one third of those who take out a payday loan do so to pay household bills, such as gas and electricity; 1.5 million households spend more than 30% of their income on unsecured credit repayments; and personal debt is expected to rise to 175% of household income by 2015—that is the concern about what is happening to families in the real world.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I am sure the shadow Minister watched the recent item on “Newsnight” on this issue with great interest. One of the major issues now is that those who take out these payday loans damage their credit rating and then cannot access mortgages down the line. Is that not an issue we must challenge, if we do not want to store up major troubles?

[Cathy Jamieson]

That is an important issue that ought to give us more food for thought. In certain circumstances, families might need to borrow on a short-term basis and be perfectly able to pay it back on time without it causing them long-term damage, but they would want to know, before taking out such a loan, that it could damage their credit rating.

I want to return to those who perhaps suffer most from the payday lending sector. Despite changing their tune and bowing to pressure from the Opposition and campaigners at the sharp end, the Government have not gone far enough to protect hard-working families from falling into unmanageable debt. That is why, even at this late stage, we have tabled our amendments. On the first, which relates to data sharing, I am sure the Minister will be aware of the concerns set out by StepChange Debt Charity about how the FCA’s proposed responsible lending rules fail to make payday lenders use real-time credit data in their loan decision making. It says that evidence from its clients suggests that payday lenders often use out-of-date credit data and therefore fail to pick up on whether borrowers have existing payday loans. Understandably, it then makes the point that lenders cannot be sure they are lending responsibly.

As we have heard repeatedly, multiple payday loans from different lenders are a major cause of debt problems. Two thirds of StepChange clients reporting financial difficulties with payday loans have been granted overlapping payday loans from different lenders. It also argues that the regulator’s responsible lending rules transpose Office of Fair Trading guidance into binding rules but continue to allow payday lenders to make loans without using that up-to-date information about borrowers’ existing financial commitments. That is obviously causing particularly severe problems for those who get into difficulty with multiple payday loans.

We should listen to what StepChange tells us about the growing problem of people being lent one unaffordable loan after another as they struggle to pay off the loans falling due. It tells us that more than 30,000 people contacted it for help with payday loans in the first six months of 2013—almost double the figure for the previous year. The average amount owed on payday loans by its clients has risen to more than £1,600, creating severe financial difficulties for those clients. In some circumstances, even a whole month’s income would not cover the repayments. It also tells us that a typical client with payday loans now has three payday loan debts and that one in five have five or more with different lenders.

Therefore, it is clear that different payday lenders granting overlapping loans is a major cause of payday debt dependency and that current procedures are not working. It is thus sensible for the FCA to require payday lenders to make use of up-to-date credit information on a borrower’s short-term commitments when they decide whether to issue or extend a loan. Payday lenders have long claimed to be working towards a system of sharing credit data in real time. They have been talking about it for more than two years, but there has been no solution.

[John Woodcock]

My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. We have heard the Minister say at the Dispatch Box that the Government are now committed to tackling this issue, whether belatedly or not. This is such a good opportunity to show that we can all be as one in the House and to take action where there is still clearly a problem, as she is so amply setting out.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words about my comments. I am simply putting forward the views brought to us by the people at the sharp end who have experienced the worst problems from payday lending. I pay tribute to those people again for doing so. I agree that it would be wonderful if we could secure some further consensus on these problems and send a clear message to the industry, particularly on advertising. The advertising spend of the top five payday lending brands apparently stands at about £36 million a year. That seems to suggest that they are investing heavily in attracting new borrowers at the same time as being not quite as willing to invest in responsible lending.

[Stephen Doughty]

My hon. Friend has made an important point about the amount of money such companies are investing in advertising. Many Members will have noted how much investment those companies are putting into advertising in football. Fans are targeted, which I think is particularly heinous, and a number of organisations have campaigned against that. Does she agree that football clubs should resist that type of advertising, which will put their supporters into great debt?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend tempts me to talk about football, which is one of my favourite topics. I will resist that temptation, except to say that I share his concerns about that.

Returning to our amendments and what the industry could do, I understand that there are differences of opinion about how best to tackle the problem. As we have seen, however, technology is available. The Veritech software is, I understand, used in 14 states in the US. Arguably, lenders would have the resources to bring that in if they wanted to. If lenders will not do something voluntarily, surely it will make sense to require them to do that, because in the meantime consumers are falling into debt. The Government should therefore act as soon as they possibly can.

Interestingly, we have heard that this issue is not just about the impact on consumers. The 118 118 company has told us that it believes the introduction of data sharing would enhance levels of competition, arguing:

“It is probable that if real time data was available, and lenders could be more confident in their lending decisions, many more of them would be attracted to this market segment. We would hope and expect that the FCA would be very cognisant of this point in view of its explicit competition objective”.

That is an interesting view. Where lending is being done, we want to know that it is being done by reputable companies, backed up by the proper technology and proper principles.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making a fantastic case to show why real-time credit checking is so important in this industry. Does she agree that, in any other industry where money was being lent, the lenders would want to know about any other obligations that the people being lent to had. Is it not curious that this industry seems not to want to know what others are lending to their customers, and does this not reflect their irresponsible approach to their consumers?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend, who has campaigned for many years on this particular issue, makes a very good point again. It seems to me to make perfect sense for anyone who is lending money to want as much information as possible to ensure that the correct decision can be taken. Our amendment would mean that the FCA would have a duty to introduce a system for sharing credit data so that payday lenders could not continue to evade their responsible lending obligations.

[Mr Newmark]

Following the intervention by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), I have to say that, unfortunately, many normal credit card companies also do not carry out due diligence, and let individuals’ debts pile up.

The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) made a very good point, which was relevant to my beloved Newcastle football club. Unfortunately, Wonga is one of its major sponsors. Does the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) agree that there should be far greater restrictions on advertising, particularly advertising by payday lenders in parts of the country where many individuals are vulnerable to them?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, whose comments were slightly more supportive than I expected them to be. He made a good point about his beloved football club. I am sure that he agrees with what I said earlier about the amount that is spent on advertising, and the worrying way in which it is normalised by being associated with football clubs and similar organisations. That particularly affects children and young people, as well as perhaps those on lower incomes.

The Minister referred to the challenges that would be faced if amendment (b) were passed and the date of implementation were brought forward. I am well aware that Martin Wheatley of the FCA set out those challenges even before writing the letter from which the Minister quoted earlier. He said that the Minister was

“aware of the challenges that we face in bringing a price cap into force by January 2015.”

The Minister said in response:

“The Government is…committed to ensuring that you can access the information you need to design the cap. The Government will bring forward secondary legislation to allow you to collect information to support your new duty as soon as possible.”

I heard him say that those regulations have now been laid. However, this strikes us as a matter of political will. If he wants the price cap to be introduced, and if he is willing to make the necessary resources available, it seems reasonable for us to press the case for the introduction of the cap by October 2014 rather than January 2015, especially as that would help us to prevent even more families from falling into the clutches of the high-cost credit market this Christmas.

Will the Minister tell us what will be done to speed up the process of the secondary legislation to which he referred? He described January 2015 as a “backstop”, but it was not clear to me whether he genuinely believed that the cap could be introduced earlier, and I think it reasonable for us to press for that to happen.

The Minister will be aware that organisations such as Which?, while welcoming the introduction of a cap on the cost of credit, suggest that it should apply to all credit products. Members have already raised the issue of authorised and unauthorised overdrafts, which, according to research findings, are often just as expensive as payday loans. It has been reported that borrowing £100 for 31 days costs £30 with a Halifax authorised overdraft and £20 with some Santander accounts, and that borrowing the same amount for the same period from a payday loan company costs between £20 and £37. Some of the banks may not feel particularly comfortable about that comparison. An unauthorised overdraft is even more expensive. I am told that in the case of the Halifax reward account and the Santander everyday account, a £100 unauthorised overdraft can cost £100 in charges. I wonder whether the Minister has taken that into account during his discussions with the FCA.

[Ian Swales]

Is the hon. Lady aware that some of those charges apply even if the overdraft lasts for only a day, let alone a month?

[Cathy Jamieson]

The specific examples that I cited had been reported to me, but I understand that in many instances high charges are applied even if people slip into an unauthorised overdraft for a very short period.

Let me ask the Minister another question. In a letter to the Minister, Martin Wheatley said:

“In designing the cap we will, as far as possible, seek to minimise potential avoidance measures. It is possible for firms located in other EEA Member States to provide a payday lending service through the internet to UK consumers within the Electronic Commerce Directive. This is not something that the FCA can mitigate.”

What assessment has the Minister made of the extent of that problem, and what can be done to reduce that? As we take things forward, it will be important that we do not simply move people from one payday lending system on to something else that could be equally difficult.

I want to say a few words about the relationship between the banks and the payday lending sector, and to focus on the question of the banks lending to the payday lenders. During the consideration of the Bill in the other place, Lord Mitchell raised this issue, and his understanding was that Barclays lent Wonga over £250 million. When he investigated that further, he discovered that the sum was apparently much higher. He raised concerns about the mission and the guiding principles of the bank and asked whether lending money to the payday lenders so they can then lend it at higher rates to people who need loans is the right thing for the banks to be doing. That raises the question of what the banks’ responsibilities are to those on lower incomes, and also the issue of the banks’ relationships with the credit unions, for example.

I feel that we must press the amendments we have tabled to a Division. I hear what the Minister has said and I have heard the comments and concerns raised by the FCA about the timetable, but I think it is reasonable to press for this to be done as quickly as possible. The Minister has said that January 2015 is the backstop date—the latest point when it could happen. I think it is reasonable for us to bring that forward and to press the amendments on data sharing to a Division.

[Mr Tyrie]

On payday loans, I only want to make two very quick points. First, we need to be very careful that EU regulation does not drive a coach and horses through anything we might try to do domestically. I also want to reinforce the point that it is extremely important not to displace what we may disapprove of in the formal sector into the informal sector of very nasty loan shark practices. This will require a great deal of supervision and care.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

There is already the tightest possible time scale. In his letter today Martin Wheatley of the FCA says that the industry is already working on this. He states:

“If the industry cannot overcome the obstacles, and we are best placed to bring about data-sharing we will not hesitate to act.”

The chief executive of the FCA and the Government understand the importance of this. We can all agree on its importance and the need to take action quickly. I do not consider it necessary to pass any legislation as action is already being taken.

[Cathy Jamieson]

To follow up the point from my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), it would the help the House to know whether the Minister has had discussions on a time scale.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. As she will have noted from the letter I just quoted from Martin Wheatley, one of the concerns about a conservative cap is that it would be open to much greater legal risk. It would serve nobody in this House if there was some kind of legal challenge to a cap and how it works if the process has not been followed properly and if some people believe that the FCA has not followed its own rules, particularly on the time for consultation. Had the hon. Lady been here at the start of the debate, she might have heard that the Competition Commission’s investigation into payday lending, which is already under a tighter timetable than it usually has—it is normally around two years, but it has agreed to make that 18 months—will report in November next year. I think that everyone would agree that it is very important that the FCA takes into account the results of that investigation.

[Cathy Jamieson]

The Minister might have already answered this, but what specific legal risk has he identified in relation to the cap being introduced sooner rather than later?

[Sajid Javid]

I refer the hon. Lady again to the letter from Martin Wheatley, which states that the FCA

“would be forced to set the cap at a more conservative level (that is, higher) to reflect the inherent legal risks.”

I believe that she has a copy of the letter.

I will finish by answering an important point the shadow Minister made about the possibility that lenders from elsewhere in the European economic area will be able to passport their services and avoid UK legislation. She is entirely right to make that analysis, because that is indeed possible under the EU commerce directive and the single market in financial services. There are mitigations, although the situation is not ideal. Under the EU consumer credit directive, there is not a cap but there are certain rules that all lenders within the EU need to follow. Of course, there is nothing to prevent the UK regulator from contacting the comparable authority in another EU-based country to see whether there is any way in which pressure can be put on indirectly through the two bodies working together.

Lords amendment 63 agreed to.

Lords amendments 1 to 40; 42 to 62 and 64 to 154 agreed to, with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 35, 37, 40, 149 and 150.

Before Clause 13

Duty of FCA to make rules restricting charges for high-cost short-term credit

Amendment (a) proposed to Lords amendment 155.—(Cathy Jamieson.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Oral Answers to Questions

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

With the Government now in chaos over the banking Bill, with one U-turn following another, does the Minister agree that Labour was right all along to insist on a tougher licensing regime for senior bankers? Why were the Government so keen to resist Labour’s amendments, only to be defeated?

[Sajid Javid]

I have to say that I do not recognise the description that the hon. Lady has attached to the banking Bill. When she refers to Labour being right all along on banking regulation, perhaps she is referring to the changes that Labour made 13 years ago, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), then shadow Chancellor, described at the time as “a field day” for “spivs and crooks”.