Payday Loan Companies

Fiona O'Donnell Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

I was rather hoping that you would not be in your seat when I rose to speak, Mr Speaker—not because it is not always a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, but because you will realise that I am being rather greedy this evening, having secured an Adjournment debate on pre-payment meters and fuel poverty. I think there is a link between the two topics of debate, and it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who I thought seemed to be arguing rather dangerously in respect of financial education: those who can’t should teach.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on the work he, his staff and members of the Select Committee did in bringing this report before us. At last, we are seeing some serious progress on regulation of the payday lending sector. I also congratulate, and express the gratitude of my constituents to, my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) and for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) on the work they have done, because it takes real courage to take on payday lenders, especially when a Member does not have the support of the whole Committee. To go out there alone to take on these payday loan companies can be a terrifying experience.

My first encounter with Wonga was very similar to that of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), so we must catch up later. I received an e-mail, saying that I had previously secured a loan from them and they wanted to be back in touch. I tried to contact the customer care service and then phoned. They told me it was a fraud, so I asked why I was being put through to customer care service when I replied to their e-mail, but I really got nowhere. My next encounter with Wonga was when a constituent had two loans fraudulently taken from her account. I put out a press release on my website, mentioning legal loan sharks. Within a few moments, Wonga was on the phone in my constituency office. It was presumably whoever it is who tries to promote the good name of Wonga. He said, “If you have a problem with Wonga, I really wish you had lifted the phone to us.” I explained that I had not found phoning to be the most fruitful way of dealing with Wonga in the past. He then said that my description of them as “legal loan sharks” was not helpful to Wonga. I responded that I had not waited 50 years to come to Parliament to be helpful to Wonga. The conversation pretty much ended at that stage!

We have definitely reached the stage where we need regulation and reform of this sector. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), who is unfortunately not in his place—I am sure he has something very pressing to attend elsewhere—spoke in praise of markets. I do not want to bury them, but I believe different markets work in different ways. In the food retail sector, for example, competition drives down prices. Generally, people in areas of larger population concentrations have access to other companies offering the same service. Other markets, however, do not operate in that way, and it almost seems that the different players are colluding to drive up the price rather than drive it down. I certainly think that that applies to payday lenders.

The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole spoke about walking down his local high street. I urge him not just to walk down it, but to stand in it and campaign against payday lenders. I did that in Musselburgh high street, in partnership with my Labour colleague in the Scottish Parliament, Kezia Dugdale, whom I must praise for her work on the Debtbusters campaign. I was goaded by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) to put on a shark costume in the high street, which I duly did. I must add that, after I had positioned myself outside the premises of each of the four providers of expensive unregulated credit in Musselburgh, each one came out and challenged me about my right to be on the pavement.

I think that it is time for action, and that it cannot come soon enough. I had the strong impression that people in Musselburgh did not like the fact that those shops were in their high street. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) that we should look at other sectors as well, including pawnbrokers. One of them kept saying, “We do not lend money”, but there were signs all over his shop saying “cash loans”, which seemed to contradict that. The whole sector needs a thorough examination.

We need to look at the total cost of credit. I realise that that will be difficult, but we must find a way of doing it. We also need to deal with advertising as rigorously as we have dealt with it in the alcohol industry. Advertising should not just make the facts clear, but should not be able to glamorise credit.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

I think that we are now seeing a cross-party attack on payday loans, along with a wish to attract people to credit unions and create more of them. We should put pressure on payday loan companies not to charge huge interest rates and huge fees for late repayment, and try to give people access to credit at an affordable rate through credit unions.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

I want to finish what I was saying about advertising, but I shall then say something about possible alternatives.

I was very disturbed and disappointed to learn that Kerry Katona was advertising Cash Lady. I saw no reason for her to be involved in a project that was aimed specifically at women. Car insurance is a different matter, because, as we all know, we are better drivers than men, and a separate service may be appropriate in that context. I was pleased when many people complained and the advertisement was removed, but Kerry Katona then appeared in another one. Advertising in this sector must be rigorously controlled.

The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) mentioned alternatives, and I agree that we should think about them. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) said that credit unions needed to have the same sort of presence as payday lenders. Unfortunately, the credit union shop in East Lothian closed, and credit unions have no high street presence in the area. That makes it far more difficult to reach out to people, and makes competition much more difficult. One Member said that the sector did not need support, but I think that that is unlikely. We do not want the cost of credit from credit unions to rise, because that would defeat the purpose.

The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) spoke of watching “It’s a Wonderful Life” at Christmas, with its talk of mutuals and building societies, and the Building and Loan company. This evening’s debate has been cordial, apart from, as ever, the contribution of the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), who also reminded me of “It’s a Wonderful Life”, because in his account of where we are today he seemed to be saying, “Imagine what it would have been like if the Conservatives had never been in government.” I think that the hon. Gentleman was the only Member who—as he often does—struck the wrong chord. There are links between increased poverty and welfare changes, and the fact that more and more people are having to turn to payday lenders.

The Select Committee report and the debate are welcome, and I hope that they will result in more protection for many of my constituents, such as those who came out of Loretto primary school to find people from the cash store in Musselburgh giving balloons to the children and providing fliers that did not contain any information about the cost of borrowing money. I hope that we shall see an end to practices of that kind, and an end to some of the poverty that is driving people to these lenders.

--- Later in debate ---

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

We have had a very thoughtful and interesting debate this evening, with 17 speakers in total as well as interventions. Most of the speakers seemed to reach a consensus on a way forward, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) pointed out, the slight exception might be the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), who has just returned to his place. He tried his best to be consensual, but every now and again he was straining at the seams—[Interruption.] I hear someone say that he cannot help himself.

We heard an excellent speech introducing the report from my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), the Chair of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills. I know that we have had a number of debates on the issue and I wondered whether we would be able to reach consensus on the report this afternoon. That has happened and, as a number of hon. Members have said, this is an important time for such a debate, not least because the FCA is considering the responses to the consultation and will be publishing the rules shortly. It is also debt awareness week. I always feel that we should be concerned by debt awareness week—it is good for us and for the organisations that support people as it focuses our attention, but for many people the harsh reality of debt is something of which they are aware not just for one week of the year but every single day.

We have heard once again this evening examples of the cases with which we are all only too familiar that involve people in our constituencies. The Chair of the Select Committee highlighted a number of issues with advertising. He put it very powerfully when he talked about the suggestion that there could be a one-minute verification to decide whether someone could access such a loan. That highlighted why we need action on advertising.

My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West also highlighted the impact of television advertising on children and young people aged 12 to 15. I have raised concerns about the issue in a previous debate, and about how advertising normalises payday loans and such borrowing. Someone might not normally consider such an option, but it can be instant and they can do it without thinking. I was also concerned to hear the story from a teacher about children’s awareness of the payday loan sector as one way of getting the things that one wants quickly. A strong case has been made this evening about advertising on television during daytime, early evening and children’s programmes.

My hon. Friend also made an important point in his opening speech about the need for the Advertising Standards Authority to work with the industry on a code of practice. If everyone were to come together to work on the matter and agree on how to take things forward, that would be excellent. If that does not happen, however, and if there is any delay, we should be prepared to ensure that action is taken.

My hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) raised some of the particular concerns of the city of Glasgow. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the new scheme introduced by Glasgow city council whereby pupils going to secondary school for the first time will be given the opportunity to have a credit union account, with £10 put into each account. That is one way of providing financial education while working creatively with the credit union movement in the city.

A number of Members stressed that it is now time for the FCA to act and various evidence was given from the CAB and StepChange about the level of debt. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) raised concerns that she has pursued for a long time now about the database and access to real-time information. A number of hon. Members talked about the Callcredit announcement and questioned whether it went far enough, as it does not necessarily provide real-time information on how decisions are made. That must be considered in more detail because, essentially, it is no good having information if it is not up to date.

As we have heard, indebtedness is not a new issue. As a former social worker, I well remember spending a lot of time trying to work with families who had to borrow money to pay for the basic necessities of life, without understanding the ongoing costs and how they would pay the money back. Of course, access to online systems and the “press the button, do it now” approach of the payday loan companies make it even easier to borrow now than in the days when the payday lenders of the time went around the doors and persuaded people to take out loans.

We heard some interesting comparisons with work that has been done in the US, Canada and Australia, particularly on roll-overs, and some good questions have been asked. For example, if someone cannot deal with one roll-over debt, why on earth would we want to let them have a second roll-over debt without that being challenged? We have heard concerns about the fact that payday originally meant payday. Of course, now it does not always relate only to people who are in work; many people on benefits and very low fixed incomes are also encouraged to take out these loans.

We have heard concerns about the continuous payment authority and people not understanding what they were getting into. We have heard a call for mainstream banking services to look more at how they support people on low incomes and the important point about financial education being about not only what happens in school but what happens particularly at key points in people’s adult lives, when there is an opportunity to intervene and to work with people to ensure that they understand what they are getting involved in.

A couple of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), mentioned fraud. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) about the implications of the planning system and the problems of payday loan companies opening shops in the high streets.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, for her constituents and mine to be protected, we also need action from the Scottish Government, so that they use their powers to protect our constituents?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, but I do not have time to develop it now because I must now come to a conclusion.

I hope that the payday lending industry will understand the strength of feeling in this debate. To be fair, some Government Members said that they had come round to our way of thinking and are now prepared to back some of the actions that we have been calling for. The industry should look at that. The FCA should take note of the issues that have been raised this evening, and it should listen to the calls for action and the suggestion that it has perhaps not gone far enough.

I will finish by congratulating again the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on the thorough work it has done on the issue and, indeed, all the campaigners who have brought it into the mainstream of opinion and concern, rather allowing it to be seen as something on the margins.