Enterprise Bill [Lords]
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(8 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) as the next speaker in the debate, I would point out that we have two hours and 20 minutes left. If the Minister wishes to do so, I will shortly call him to speak from the Front Bench. A simple nod of the head will suffice.
Mr Speaker
I appeal to colleagues to have regard to each other’s interests. We do not keep a formal list on Report, but I suspect there will be intense interest in these exchanges, so colleagues should look after the interests of each other.
Jonathan Reynolds
I endorse those points entirely, although it is worth noting that church attendance in many UK cities, even here in metropolitan London, is steadily rising.
The Government have a responsibility to listen to faith groups on this issue, but they have failed to do so. The changes will place additional pressure on workers and families on what is still a traditional day of rest, a day of religious worship and a day to spend quality time with family members and close friends. For faith, for family and for the rights of many retail workers up and down this country, I will be voting for the amendment. I urge the House to show the courage required today to defeat the Government on this issue.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
I appreciate being called early in the debate, and I hope I can help by outlining our thinking and the journey the Government want to take on this issue.
It is important that we recall why this measure on Sunday trading hours is before the House. The laws on trading in England and Wales were last updated in 1994—back when the only time we heard of Amazon was when we talked about the river, and back when our high streets faced no external pressures. The internet is liberating and changing the way we live and work, but the pressures on our high streets are rising, and the internet plays a part in that. Our measures will help them by giving local councils the right to expand Sunday trading.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
All those conditions were apparent just 10 months ago when the Conservative party stood on a manifesto that it presented to the British people, but there was zero mention of any change to Sunday trading laws. This measure represents a fundamental change to the social practice in our country, as the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) pointed out. Why have the Government now found all these reasons to introduce a measure in this absurd fashion?
Brandon Lewis
I have huge respect for my hon. Friend, having worked with him on a range of issues, but we clearly said in our manifesto that we were determined to drive economic growth, and we believe that this is an important part of that. That is why we referred to this last summer.
It is clear that local authorities believe they are the right bodies to hold this power. They represent local people, are accountable locally, know their areas best and want this power, which is why almost 200 have written asking for it to be devolved to them, including councils such as Carlisle, Chorley and, despite what the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) said, Greater Manchester Combined Authority.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
My hon. Friend is very able and has a wonderful job, but he wants to spend time on a Sunday with his family. I have heard so many Members say they want to keep Sunday special for their family. Why should shop workers be any different?
Brandon Lewis
I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate that not only do people work in shops on Sundays already—in many areas, for longer than the opening hours, because of how shops work—but people working in retail, if they work six days a week, might like to visit retail outlets themselves on Sundays. The internet is growing: we saw a stark warning of that today as Amazon has announced it is opening another centre in Manchester, creating more jobs. That shows how it is growing and the pressure that the internet is applying, but of course we are not forcing anybody to shop on a Sunday.
Councils want this power. They want the ability to zone and to take a decision on trading in their area—for example, if they wish to promote the high street at the expense of out-of-town commercial sites. Our amendment allows that zoning to happen, and no one knows more about their local area than locally elected leaders. This also provides an opportunity for independent businesses to benefit. One of the big voices calling for this change is the Horticultural Trades Association, comprising mainly independent businesses, and it wants this growth.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
I think the Minister has hit the nail absolutely on the head. Listening to the debate hitherto, one might have thought that we were proposing to introduce Sunday trading. The Minister is absolutely right, and I speak as a former district councillor of 11 years standing, that it is not for this House to decide what is best for local areas—it is for those local areas and their local representatives, and they are being given discretion.
Brandon Lewis
I agree with my hon. Friend; I think he is right. One of the things I have been most passionate about, as have the Secretary of State, the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, during the years of coalition as well as in this Parliament, is devolving power, and we just wish our friends in Scotland believed in devolving power, too. It is why organisations representing independent businesses like garden centres are so keen to benefit from this growth.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
Let me take the Minister back to the important point made by his hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) in a measured speech in which he reminded us of the Prime Minister’s clear commitment just weeks before the general election:
“I can assure you that we have no plans to relax the Sunday trading laws. We believe the current system provides a reasonable balance”.
Does the Minister not think it matters if the Prime Minister says one thing just before a general election, if a policy is not in the Conservative manifesto, but the Government then do something completely different afterwards?
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate that the Labour party is not looking to drive economic growth, but our manifesto is clear that we want to see it, and the Prime Minister made it very clear at this very Dispatch Box last year that we thought it was time to review Sunday trading laws in the light of how things have moved on.
Several hon. Members rose—
Brandon Lewis
I shall take some more interventions in a few moments, but I am aware of the Speaker’s correct point about the time available this afternoon.
If we look at our track record, it is clear that no party cares more about worker protection than this Conservative Government. We are the party of the national living wage—it is our Chancellor who has delivered it—and it is our measure that will protect shop workers. No one will be forced to work on a Sunday; indeed, everyone has the right to say no. We will also reduce the opt-out period for large shops, so that shop workers need give employers only one month’s notice of an unwillingness to work. We have to be clear that this is a package of amendments. Should amendment 1 go through today, Members of Opposition parties will be voting against improving workers’ rights, because that provision will go as well. Anyone who already works on a Sunday will have a new right to turn down extra hours to which they do not wish to commit. Labour and the SNP oppose all of that. They oppose giving workers who wish it the right to work longer and different hours, and they deny everyone the right to spend Sunday as they choose in their time with their families wherever and however they choose.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
There are a number of convenience stores in my constituency that are below the 3,000 sq feet threshold. Many are franchisees and small businesses, so will the Minister elaborate a little further on what conversations he has had with those businesses about the proposed changes?
Brandon Lewis
I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate—he used to work closely with me—that I was once the Minister responsible for the high streets. My colleague who is currently the Minister responsible for the high streets and I work with the Future High Streets Forum, and I talk to small businesses all the time.
Clive Efford
As someone who has run his own independent retail business, may I tell the Minister that many independent traders have few extra resources? They will be forced to open to compete with the very large stores. What about the lifestyle of those people who would end up working seven days a week in order to try to keep their businesses running?
Brandon Lewis
I am slightly surprised by the hon. Gentleman’s comments. After all, his local authority is one that is saying that it wants this power, which he is trying to stop it taking. Labour-run Greenwich wants this power. Those small shops have the ability to open now, and they are in competition with 24-hour, seven-day-a-week internet shopping, including on Sundays. The hon. Gentleman might not realise it, but Amazon is open on a Sunday and it delivers on a Sunday. We want to give the high streets a chance to compete with that.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
Has my hon. Friend had any conversations with the leaders of the SNP about why they liberalised trading laws in Scotland, what advantages they sought from that, and why they are proposing to reverse it on the basis of their concerns about any of the issues other than pay that they wish to address?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend has made a very good point. Research conducted by the Association of Convenience Stores has established that there are more small independent shops per head of population in Scotland than there are in England. So the liberalisation in Scotland has worked—unless the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) is going to tell us, when she makes her speech later, that the SNP is about to go backwards and change the law there.
Richard Fuller
It seems to me that, if Conservative Members are being asked to vote for something that was not in our manifesto so shortly after the election, it should be because the situation is urgent, because there is a compelling argument in favour of the move, or because the circumstances have changed. The situation does not appear to me to be urgent. The Minister will finish his remarks, and he may advance a compelling argument. However, he seems to be resting on the assumption that the circumstances have changed, and in that context he has laid emphasis on internet shopping. He may be aware that, only yesterday, the head of the British Retail Consortium appeared before the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee and talked about the evolution of business models. He said that, because high street retailers now have their own online retail outlets, they do not necessarily feel compelled to draw a distinction between the two kinds of retail for the purposes of achieving growth.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend has, in fact, made it clear why it is important for local authorities to be able to decide locally what is right for them. He should also acknowledge that it is often the larger high-street stores that are the draw for footfall in local areas. As he knows, I think that free car parking also plays a part, and I should like to see more of that.
As we all know, politics is not an exact science, and all but the most saintly of humans can sometimes contradict themselves, or be open to the charge of inconsistency. However, the contradictions that are inherent in the Labour-SNP opposition to our liberalisation proposals are so immense that I must draw attention to them.
As others have pointed out, there are no restrictions on Sunday trading in Scotland. First, SNP Members said—as one would expect—that they would support our proposals, and now they say that will not. Will the SNP Administration in Edinburgh be introducing the restrictions that currently apply in England, in order to be consistent? I should be interested to hear the answer to that question.
Do Labour Members—along with USDAW—plan to send letters to their constituents urging them to give up using the internet on Sundays, lest someone, somewhere, be exploited in a warehouse owned by Amazon or a similar company? I am tempted to ask the Opposition why they did not vote against this proposal in Committee, or even, in some cases, speak against it—neither the SNP nor Labour voted against it—and why they have not tabled an amendment themselves. Perhaps the wording of the amendment could have been something like “It has come to the attention of Labour and SNP that that some people shop on the internet on Sundays.” After all, Sunday is now the biggest internet shopping day of the week. It could have continued: “Labour and the SNP demand a law requiring people to switch off the internet on Sundays, in order to stamp out this disgraceful behaviour.”
Perhaps I should not give Opposition Members any ideas. How can anyone be opposed to the idea of walking into a shop on a Sunday to buy something—a book, for example, whether it is a little red one or not—but not opposed to the idea of buying that very same book, so long as it is done on the internet? Labour and the SNP—parties that are, effectively, in coalition today—are supporting Amazon’s profits at the expense of shops on our high streets. I am afraid that I struggle to understand the logic of that.
Caroline Flint
The Minister mentioned protection for shop workers earlier. I would welcome the strengthening of such protection. May I ask the Minister whether, if he loses the vote on Sunday opening tonight, he will retain the protection for shop workers that is in the Bill?
Brandon Lewis
We have made it clear from the beginning that this is a package. If Members vote for amendment 1, they will be voting against the improvement in workers’ rights.
Mrs Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (Con)
I am deeply concerned about this issue, and my name is attached to amendment No. 1. I listened to what the Minister said this morning, when we spoke at some length about the proposed pilot. I would be willing to support that pilot if the Minister would give us a clear assurance that it will not just involve looking at economic drivers, but will take account of the overall impact, and apply the family test. A great many people who work shifts are put on the bottom of the list and end up working on Sundays because they cannot get to the top. We must make sure that that does not happen in this instance. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
It was not selected. For the benefit of people attending to our proceedings, I shall be explicit. It is for the Speaker to select or not to select, and I did not select that late-submitted manuscript proposal. I need add nothing.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mrs Trevelyan) makes a strong point, and she has been consistent on this matter. She makes a clear, passionate and strong point on the importance of family values and of our social fabric. If she will bear with me, I will touch on that matter in just a moment.
I would say to Opposition Members that we need to think about where we are with Sunday trading. Let us be very clear: none of us would put up with a Government banning cinemas from opening on Wednesday evenings, so why on earth would we put up with a Government telling us when we can and cannot open our businesses and run our shops, and telling us how we should be spending our time if we want to go shopping on a Sunday?
Mr Jackson
The Minister is fielding a difficult case very well. He is an excellent Minister with whom I have had the great honour to serve on the Housing and Planning Bill Committee. However, on the specific issue of employment rights, he will know that as a result of work commissioned by the Christian Institute, John Bowers QC said on 25 February that he considered the Government’s proposals for employment rights “inordinately complex”, and that they would offer
“no protection from detriment or dismissal for people who object to working on Sundays during the opt-out notice period.”
That is the issue, and that is what the best legal brains have told us about the Government’s proposal.
Brandon Lewis
I have a similar admiration for my hon. Friend. He is a fantastic colleague to work with at all times, but I disagree with him on this matter. We know what the Government lawyers have outlined, and the strengthening of rights as set out in our amendments goes beyond anything that Labour did while it was in government to increase workers’ protection. This is an important part of the package. Inconsistency from the parties on the Opposition Benches is one thing, but killing off jobs is entirely another. Given Labour’s unemployment record and its Maoist take on economics, however, I should perhaps not be surprised. The SNP and Labour did not even raise an amendment or a vote on this issue in Committee.
Brandon Lewis
I will in a moment, but I want to make a bit of progress.
The estimates of the growth that liberalisation would deliver can be seen in the evidence. Growth, which would mean new jobs and more taxes to pay for public services, will come as a result of these changes. Estimates suggest an extra £300 million of sales in London alone. The letters that Labour and the SNP might be drafting, urging people to avoid the internet on Sundays, should include a postscript for anybody who is looking for a job right now. Maybe it could say, “Sorry, we’re opposing measures that could have helped you find a job.” And the SNP, the party that exists to promote local control over people’s own affairs, should perhaps add a PPS to explain why its members are voting to prevent devolution to English and Welsh councils when the control of shopping hours is already fully devolved to the Scottish Government.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Given that the Government have known the SNP’s position on this matter since November, why have they not come back with proposals to put the protection of premium pay into statute, for example, or indeed to devolve employment law so that we could sort this out for ourselves?
Brandon Lewis
I am struggling to treat that comment with any seriousness. I would simply remind the hon. Gentleman of the SNP’s comments on this issue that appeared in the press last week.
Mr Shuker
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is obviously trying to defend a difficult position. The Government support the measure and the Opposition oppose it, yet several of the Minister’s party colleagues share deep concern, tapping into a conservative tradition of trying to preserve our institutions. I gently suggest that he might make better progress by making positive arguments for his proposals to those colleagues rather than by attacking the Opposition, and therefore Members on his side, as Maoists.
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments, but my colleagues and good friends around me are capable of defending themselves and making their case clearly, just as my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) has done this afternoon. I respect that, but the reality is that we want to provide an opportunity for economic growth and give our high streets the chance to regenerate. The hon. Member for Luton South (Mr Shuker) might want to have a look at the Hansard reports of the Committee stage to see the arguments we had then in more detail.
Robert Jenrick
The largest employer in my constituency is Knowhow, of which hon. Members may be aware from ordering TVs and electrical equipment. It is the biggest distributor of electrical equipment from online sales. Those workers—hundreds of my constituents—work on Sundays. How do hon. Members think that they get their deliveries on Monday morning? The Bill will enhance the rights of those workers. When hon. Members go online and order something on Amazon on a Saturday or Sunday, workers in my constituency and across the country will be working and will enjoy the benefits that the Bill will give them.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a strong point clearly and highlights another important point. The United States is one of the most observant places in the world on religious matters but it has more freedom than we do, and I am sure that Scottish Members would argue that family values and religious observance have not decreased following liberalisation. People will still be able to choose what they do and, arguably, have more flexibility on Sundays. We have to remember the workers who work six days a week and who want more opportunities when choosing how to spend their time.
Brandon Lewis
Before I take any more interventions, I am aware of your comments about the time available this afternoon, Mr Speaker, and want to make a little progress. There are Members on both sides of the House, particularly on my side, whose consciences make this a difficult subject, and I respect their moral views. They are speaking from strong positions, rather than playing with political opportunism, which some Opposition Members are doing. I want to set out our journey of travel so that the House gets a feeling for what we are planning. We intend to go further and do something different from what we initially proposed in the protections on offer.
Having listened to colleagues and discussed their principled objections with them, I want to propose something. Before I do, I should make it clear that it deals with the concerns raised by SNP Members in the press, so we will find out whether they really believe what they have been saying over the past 24 hours. Rather than applying the liberalisation nationwide from day one, the Government will invite local authorities that want to liberalise hours to apply for participation in an exploratory phase. Twelve places, geographically, economically and demographically diverse, will be locally recommended to us.
Taking your absolutely correct point about the manuscript amendment to heart, Mr Speaker, may I say that if hon. Members join the Government and me in voting against amendment 1 today, we will table an amendment in the other place? I have circulated that amendment to colleagues this afternoon. During an exploratory phase, we will gather evidence about the impact of liberalisation, including the use of zoning and its effect on those local economies. And of course the impacts on workers will be measured, too. My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed and other colleagues have made this case clearly, strongly and passionately, and we are listening and have heard what they say. We want to make sure that we are able to have a proper assessment. I will liaise with colleagues over the next few weeks to make sure that our performance indicators recognise, assess and look at this as part of the criteria over the next 12 months.
Mr Speaker
Let me explain the position to the hon. Gentleman, to whom I am genuinely grateful for his point of order, and for the benefit of the House. There is nothing disorderly in the Minister giving an indication of how the Government would propose to proceed. If a Minister wishes to say to the House, “Our intention is to proceed with pilots”, it is perfectly in order for the Minister to do that. But of one thing, procedurally and constitutionally, the House needs to be made again aware: Members are voting on that which is on the paper and which the Speaker has selected. Members are not voting on a Government proposal or words about pilots; they are voting on that which is on the paper. The matter under discussion is the amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes). We are voting on that, not on a Government proposal, and I hope that that is clear.
Several hon. Members rose—
Brandon Lewis
I will take some interventions in just a second. Obviously, you are absolutely right, as always, Mr Speaker. I would not dream of taking any other view. What I wanted to outline to my hon. Friends and to colleagues across this House is that what Mr Speaker said is absolutely right: we are saying that if the House votes against amendment 1, what I have outlined is what the Government will then do.
Mr Chope
I have been writing to constituents over the past six months saying that I agree with the Prime Minister on this issue and, in particular, with what he said in his letter of 20 April. I wonder whether my hon. Friend would be able to help me in drafting a new letter if I were to go into the wrong Lobby. May I ask him whether the Government would introduce fresh legislation in the Queen’s Speech? Why not bring forward a fresh Bill and have a proper discussion about this, de novo?
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate my hon. Friend’s faith in my ability to draft a letter, and I am happy to do that. As he talks about this being over the past six months, I would gently point his local residents towards the fact that both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor last summer outlined that we wanted to review the Sunday trading laws, in the light of how things were moving on economically and the speed with which internet shopping is growing.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Is the Minister telling us that the conscience of this House and of individual Members of this House can be salved in some way by the promise of a stay of execution but with a really nice funeral later on? Is that in essence what he is telling us? Would he not be far better withdrawing this measure now and bringing back new measures at a later stage?
Brandon Lewis
I am just going to continue outlining exactly the journey of travel would be. What the hon Gentleman has outlined is not quite what we are looking at. We would have pilots; local areas would come in and say that they want to be part of this. We must bear in mind that almost 200 local authorities want this power. The Government would choose 12 areas with a good demographic spread to look at over the next 12 months.
Several hon. Members rose—
Brandon Lewis
I will take some more interventions in a moment, but I want to finish answering the hon. Gentleman’s point. There would be an opportunity to look at the assessment of that over the next 12 months, and we would report back to Parliament with the findings, based on agreed key performance indicators. In 12 months’ time, this will come back to Parliament—on the Floor of this House. An evaluation of this exploratory phase will be published. We are circulating a draft for colleagues to consider, and I will be asking them to support us by opposing amendments 1 and 19, and supporting the Government amendments 2, 13 and 14, which will then allow us to do this in the House of Lords.
That will take us to an evaluation of this exploratory phase, which will be published. After that pilot period, the House will then debate and vote again on extending the right to every council in England and Wales. Therefore, the matter will come back to this House for a full debate, during which Members will have the evidence before them.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
I thank the Minister for giving way. First, we had the Minister, a member of the union of barrel scrapers, presenting himself as an advocate for workers’ rights and interests. Now he is trying to tell us that he is selling on some sort of deferred click and collect basis—an option that is not available or in front of us today. Is the Minister not pushing something that will be a predictive text version of public policy that will end up becoming the default position for local authorities, firms and workers who do not want it?
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman is not quite correct. There is huge interest in this. I am talking about local authorities, consumers, people who work six days a week, families, workers who want the chance to work on a Sunday and businesses that want a chance to compete with the internet. Horticultural associations are very clear that this is worth a potential £75 million a year to our economy—and that is in their industry alone. In the main, I am talking about independent businesses. Potentially, there are thousands and thousands of jobs.
Several hon. Members rose—
Brandon Lewis
I will take some interventions in a moment. If Members vote against amendment 1, as I am asking them to do, I will make sure that we have a pilot scheme that runs over 12 months, which will give us further evidence, so that we can come back to this House for full scrutiny, a debate and a vote.
Mr Mak
Does the Minister agree that another point of reassurance to hon. Members across the House is the fact that contained in the Government’s Bill are zoning provisions, which allow local authorities to choose the areas that will benefit from enhanced Sunday trading laws? That is a fair compromise.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is in the Bill an ability to zone. Local areas that want to carry out a pilot will be able to specify exactly how they want to do it and what that zone will look like. This scheme is all about absolutely trusting local people to do what they know is right for their area. By doing it this way, there is no need for amendment 1. Our intention is to increase freedom, protect shopworkers’ rights, grow our economy, and protect our high streets while devolving power from Whitehall to town halls. We want to see power devolving to local areas, because they know their economies and their high streets best and they want this power to see their economies grow.
Sir Edward Leigh
If Lincoln applies for a pilot and it goes ahead, will there not be intolerable pressure on West Lindsey next door? Tesco will say to West Lindsey and Gainsborough, “Unless you agree to join this, we will close you down and move to Lincoln.” It is not true devolution. I know that my hon. Friend is a very able Minister and that he is working very hard, but his arguments do not stack up. Frankly, even God took a rest on the seventh day. My hon. Friend should just sit down, rest his case and withdraw the measure.
Brandon Lewis
I thank my hon. Friend for his kind invitation to a rest, but I am happy to carry on and try to do the right thing for our economy for just a little bit longer. Let me tell him how this will practically work. As there will be only 12 pilots, no other area will be allowed to take part. If he looks at what we have circulated this afternoon, he will be able to see that the pilots will take place only in certain areas. After that, the matter will come back to this House for full assessment, full debate and full scrutiny.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Before entering this place, I was in business for 25 years. It is absolutely right to consider the needs of large businesses and, of course, small businesses, and the family lives of workers, but, as all business people know, the customer comes first. If the customer wants to shop at other times at the weekend, should they not be allowed to do so, and is the pilot not the right way to take it forward? Members on both sides of the House say that customers do not want this policy, but should we not ask them, through a pilot, to see if they actually do want this and to see the effect that it has on small businesses in particular?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend gets to the heart of a key issue: what is right for the wider community and for our consumers and residents? To build on his very direct point, let me add that I spoke to somebody just last week who made a very salient point: as someone who works in the health service six days a week, they really want this wider opportunity on a Sunday to shop in the way everybody else does on a Saturday, a Friday and a Thursday, and to spend time with their families in these shopping areas, supporting their high street, as many of us can on a Saturday. I am sure that there are many Members of this House who work hard on a Saturday and who might also take advantage of this freedom on a Sunday.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
I live in Carlisle. Last Sunday, I went shopping in Gretna. Is it not right that the people of Carlisle get the same opportunity as Scottish people to decide whether we should be open on Sundays?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend will know as well as I do, if not better, that businesses in Carlisle want this power; indeed, the Labour local authority wants it, and it may well bid to be one of the pilots.
I should be very clear: if amendment 1 is not accepted today, we will only go forward in the other House with our new amendment, which will mean there are only 12 pilots—no more than that.
Victoria Borwick (Kensington) (Con)
I thank the Minister for letting us know about the zoning proposals. Perhaps he could clarify whether London could be a zone itself, or whether that will be delegated to the individual local authorities. London is obviously a diverse area, and many people would appreciate working on Sundays, whereas they would not like to work on another day—so there is flexibility in this new employment. Equally, on the Minister’s point about America, there is obviously a higher church attendance, but there is also much more freedom on this issue. We are a great capital city, and we would like to trade on Sunday.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a good point. I can appreciate that parts of London would want to come forward as a zone. For example, some of the evidence shows that, in the west end alone, that could be worth almost £400 million a year for the economy, with 2,500 jobs being created. However, it would be for areas to bid to be one of the pilot areas.
London is actually a really good example of how the market drives these things. Even on the days when shops can open for as long as they like, Members may find that, if they wander to the west end in the middle of the week, shops do not open particularly longer hours, so that, by the time we finish in this place, they are not open. Businesses can make that choice; what we want to do is make sure that they have that choice, that it is locally driven and that local residents have a choice as well.
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
For the purposes of clarity, will the Minister tell us how the proposals, which we have not yet seen, will assess the impact on premium pay not just in Scotland but in the rest of the United Kingdom?
Brandon Lewis
I would say to the hon. Lady and to colleagues around the House that, as we put these proposals forward, it is important that we make sure that the key performance indicators that will come back to the House a year after the pilots—we will run the pilots for 12 months—cover a whole range of issues. She makes a fair point, and if it is one of the points she and her colleagues want looked at in the pilots, I am very happy to make sure it is. [Interruption.]
The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) asks from a sedentary position whether I am going to use up the entire time, and I would gently say to him that, no, I will not. I am about to conclude, but I would just point out to him that I have been spending much of my time taking interventions from his hon. Friends. I find his comments slightly surprising, bearing in mind that this is not an issue he felt needed voting on in Committee.
Brandon Lewis
No, I am not going to take an intervention. We need to allow other hon. Members to have their say.
We have listened to the principled opposition to our plans. I have listened to colleagues who have made strong, passionate and clear proposals to us, and we are amending them accordingly with our proposal for an exploratory evaluative phase, which we will lay amendments for in the other place—a draft is available for colleagues to look at now. I therefore call on all Members to support the Government’s amendment and to vote against amendment 1.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Welcome to our deliberations, Madam Deputy Speaker. I should refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
That really was the “Trust me, I’m Honest Brandon” speech: “We’ve got it wrong so far. We promise to do better next time, so I’m begging you to support me, despite making such a mess of things so far.” Honestly, have we ever heard anything quite so absurd?
The Minister asked why we did not vote against the measure in Committee, so I will read him what my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) said then:
“I will cut short my comments and simply say that we are against these proposals—”
that sounds pretty clear to me—
“but we will not vote against them at this stage because we want the opportunity to test the opinion of the whole House on Report.”––[Official Report, Enterprise Public Bill Committee, 25 February 2016; c. 328.]
Today that is exactly what we are doing.
Bill Esterson
Let me answer my hon. Friend. Perhaps the Minister will answer the similar point made by the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). Why does he not go back to the drawing board, start again with a new Bill, and bring it back to us once it has been properly considered? Both Houses should have ample opportunity to consider this issue properly, debate it fully, and get the right conclusions and legislation. He could start again.
Brandon Lewis
Let me help the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. I outlined the measures in the way I did because, if amendment 1 is accepted, the Sunday trading clauses will not apply. We need to support the Government amendments in order to amend the Government amendments in the House of Lords. From a technical point of view, that is why we did it in that way. I want to ensure that we run these pilots for the benefit of local economies.
Bill Esterson
That is complete nonsense. The Minister had long enough when he was on his feet to demonstrate the nonsense of what he is saying. The only way to do this is to start from scratch, and enough hon. Members across the House have made that point. The Minister should listen, particularly to his own Members, who have made that point well.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Seventh sitting)
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Kevin Brennan
May I gently say to the Minister that a lot of give and take is always required in Committee, and we have our job to do in scrutinising the Bill and proposing Opposition amendments? The Government have their job, and the minimum requirement is to turn up prepared to discuss with the Committee every clause and every amendment that has been selected. That, if I may say so, is government 101.
It is becoming a little bit of a pattern that that preparation has not been done, and I do not know why it is so, but there have been a number of occasions where it seems as if the Minister does not have the full briefing that she should have in front of her. If I am being unkind I will withdraw that, but it is for other Members who watch our proceedings and for Committee members to decide what they think about it. However, it is the minimum requirement, if I may put it as gently as that, that we should receive a response to our amendment from the Government. We are trying to do our job and the Minister is trying to do hers. We need the preparation to be done in advance of our proceedings. On that basis, and to save further embarrassment, I will not press our amendment.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 22 read a Second time and added to the Bill.
New Clause 23
The Institute for Apprenticeships: transitional provision
“(1) Subsection (2) applies to—
(a) any standard approved and published by the Secretary of State under section A2 of the 2009 Act before the appointed day;
(b) any plan which—
(i) relates to the assessment of a person’s attainment of outcomes set out in a standard mentioned in paragraph (a), and
(ii) was approved and published by the Secretary of State for the purposes of that assessment before the appointed day.
(2) Such a standard or plan is to be treated on and after the appointed day as having been approved by the Institute for Apprenticeships under section A2A of the 2009 Act and published by it under section A2 of that Act (as amended by Schedule (The Institute for Apprenticeships)).
(3) A standard or plan within subsection (1) is to be treated for the purposes of section A2I of the 2009 Act (as inserted by Schedule (The Institute for Apprenticeships)) as having been approved by the Institute for Apprenticeship at the beginning of the appointed day.
(4) This section does not limit the provision that may be made under clause 37.
(5) In this section—
“the appointed day” means the day on which section A2A of the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (inserted by Schedule (The Institute for Apprenticeships)) comes into force;
“the 2009 Act” means the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009.”—(Anna Soubry.)
This new Clause makes transitional provision relating to the establishment of the Institute for Apprenticeships.
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 21
Extended Sunday opening hours and Sunday working
“(1) The Sunday Trading Act 1994 is amended in accordance with subsections (2) to (4).
(2) In paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 (which restricts the opening hours of large shops on Sundays), after sub-paragraph (3) insert—
“(3A) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply in relation to the opening of a large shop during any other period on a Sunday in accordance with a consent notice published under paragraph 2A (subject to sub-paragraph (4)).”
(3) After that paragraph insert—
“Consent notices published by Sunday trading authorities
2A (1) The Sunday trading authority for an area may publish a notice (a “consent notice”) in accordance with this paragraph providing for large shops in the authority’s area to be permitted to do either or both of the following—
(a) to open on a Sunday for a continuous period of whatever number of hours is specified in the notice (in addition to the continuous period of six hours mentioned in paragraph 2(3));
(b) to open on a Sunday at specified times beginning earlier than, or ending later than, the times mentioned in paragraph 2(3).
(2) A consent notice published by a Sunday trading authority may apply in relation to the whole or any part of the authority’s area.
(3) A Sunday trading authority may, by publishing a further notice, vary or revoke a consent notice that applies in relation to its area.
(4) Before varying or revoking a consent notice under sub-paragraph (3), a Sunday trading authority must give reasonable notice to occupiers of large shops whose opening hours on Sundays would be affected by the variation or revocation.
(5) Publication of a notice under this paragraph may take whatever form the authority publishing it thinks appropriate for the purpose of bringing the notice to the attention of occupiers of large shops in the area to which the notice relates.
(6) Subject to sub-paragraph (7), the Sunday trading authority for an area is the local authority for the area.
(7) In relation to the area of Greater London, the Sunday trading authority is the Mayor of London acting on behalf of the Greater London Authority.”
(4) Accordingly—
(a) in paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 (restrictions on Sunday opening)—
(i) in sub-paragraph (1), for “and (3)” substitute “, (3) and (3A)”;
(ii) in sub-paragraph (4), for “exemption conferred by sub-paragraph (3) above does” substitute “exemptions conferred by sub-paragraphs (3) and (3A) do”;
(b) in paragraph 6 of that Schedule (duty to display notice), after “sub-paragraph (3)” insert “or (3A)”;
(c) in paragraph 8 of that Schedule (defence to an offence of contravening opening restrictions), after “paragraph 2(3)” insert “or (3A)”;
(d) in paragraph 1(a) of Schedule 3 (loading and unloading at large shops on Sunday morning: application), after “paragraph 2(3)” insert “or (3A)”.
(5) Schedule (Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers), which contains amendments of employment legislation relating to the rights of shop workers to opt out of working on Sunday, has effect.”—(Brandon Lewis.)
This new Clause amends the Sunday Trading Act 1994, giving powers to local areas to extend Sunday trading hours for large shops (with a retail floor area greater than 280 square metres). The extended hours can apply to the whole or part of the local area. The new Clause also introduces a new Schedule to the Bill containing amendments to the Employment Rights Act 1996 and the Employment Act 2002 in relation to Sunday working.
Brought up, and read the First time.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government new schedule 1—Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers.
“Schedule
Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers
Employment Rights Act 1996
1 The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows.
2 In section 41 (opted-out shop workers and betting workers), for subsection (3) substitute—
(3) In this Act “notice period”, in relation to an opted-out shop worker or an opted-out betting worker, means—
(a) in the case of an opted-out shop worker who does shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the opting-out notice concerned was given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to sections 41D(2) and 42(2).”
3 After section 41 insert—
“41A Notice of objection by shop workers to working additional hours on Sunday
(1) A shop worker may at any time give to his or her employer a written notice, signed and dated by the shop worker, to the effect that he or she objects to doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(2) In this Part—
“additional hours” means any number of hours of shop work that a shop worker is (or could be) required to work under a contract of employment on Sunday that are(or would be) in excess of the shop worker’s normal Sunday working hours;
“objection notice” means a notice given under subsection (1).
(3) The “normal Sunday working hours” of a shop worker are to be calculated in accordance with regulations.
(4) Regulations under this section may provide—
(a) for the calculation to be determined (for example) by reference to the average number of hours that the shop worker has worked on Sundays during a period specified or described in the regulations;
(b) for a calculation of the kind mentioned in paragraph (a) to be varied in special cases;
(c) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable in special cases (and subsection (1) is subject to provision made by virtue of this paragraph).
(5) Provision under subsection (4)( b) or (c) may, in particular, include provision—
(a) about how the calculation of normal Sunday working hours is to be made in the case of a shop worker who has not been employed for a sufficient period of time to enable a calculation to be made as otherwise provided for in the regulations;
(b) for the right to give an objection notice not to be exercisable by such a shop worker until he or she has completed a period of employment specified or described in the regulations.
(6) But regulations under this section may not include provision preventing a shop worker who has been continuously employed under a contract of employment for a period of one year or more from giving to the employer an objection notice.
(7) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41B Explanatory statement: persons who become shop workers
(1) This section applies where a person becomes a shop worker who, under a contract of employment, is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays.
(2) The employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the following rights—
(a) the right to object to working on Sundays by giving the employer an opting-out notice (if section 40 applies to the shop worker);
(b) the right to object to doing shop work for additional hours on Sundays by giving the employer an objection notice.
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which the person becomes a shop worker as mentioned in subsection (1).
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
41C Explanatory statement: shop workers at commencement date
(1) This section applies where—
(a) under a contract of employment a shop worker is or may be required to do shop work on Sundays, and
(b) the shop worker was employed under that contract on the day before the commencement date.
(2) The shop worker’s employer must give to the shop worker a written statement informing the shop worker of the rights mentioned in section 41B(2).
(3) The statement must be given before the end of the period of two months beginning with the commencement date.
(4) An employer does not fail to comply with subsections (2) and (3) in a case where, before the end of the period referred to in subsection (3), the shop worker has given to the employer an opting-out notice (and that notice has not been withdrawn).
(5) A statement under this section must comply with such requirements as to form and content as regulations may provide.
(6) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different purposes.
(7) In this section “commencement date” means the date appointed by regulations under section38 of the Enterprise Act 2016 for the coming into force of section (Extended Sunday opening hour and Sunday working)(5) of, and Schedule (Sunday opening hours: rights of shop workers) to, that Act.
41D Failure to give explanatory statement under section 41B or 41C
(1) This section applies if an employer fails to give to a shop worker a written statement in accordance with—
(a) section 41B(2) and (3), or
(b) section 41C(2) and (3).
(2) If the shop worker gives to the employer an opting-out notice, the notice period under section 41(3) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the notice period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the notice period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.
(3) If the shop worker gives to the employer an objection notice, the relevant period under section 43ZA(2) that applies in relation to the shop worker is varied as follows—
(a) if the relevant period under that provision would have been one month, it becomes 7 days instead;
(b) if the relevant period under that provision would have been three months, it becomes one month instead.”
4 (1) Section 42 (explanatory statement) is amended as follows.
(2) In the heading, after “statement” insert “: betting workers”.
(3) In subsection (1) omit “shop worker or”.
(4) In subsection (2)—
(a) in paragraph (a) omit “shop worker or”;
(b) in paragraph (b)—
(i) after “the” omit “shop worker or”;
(ii) omit “an opted-out shop worker or”.
(5) In subsection (3) omit “shop worker or”.
(6) Omit subsection (4).
(7) In subsection (6)—
(a) for “forms” substitute “form”;
(b) for “subsections (4) and (5)” substitute “subsection (5)”.
5 In the heading of section 43, after “work” insert “: opting-out notices”.
6 After section 43 (in Part 4) insert—
“43ZA Contractual requirements relating to working additional hours on Sundays: objection notices
(1) Where a shop worker gives to his or her employer an objection notice, any agreement entered into between the shop worker and the employer becomes unenforceable to the extent that—
(a) it requires the shop worker to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of the relevant period, or
(b) it requires the employer to provide the shop worker with shop work for additional hours on Sunday after the end of that period.
(2) The “relevant period” is—
(a) in the case of a shop worker who is or may be required to do shop work in or about a large shop, the period of one month beginning with the day on which the objection notice is given;
(b) in any other case, the period of three months beginning with that day.
This subsection is subject to section 41D(3).
(3) A shop worker who has given an objection notice may revoke the notice by giving a further written notice to the employer.
(4) Where—
(a) a shop worker gives to the employer a notice under subsection (3), and
(b) after giving the notice the shop worker expressly agrees with the employer to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday (whether on Sundays generally or on a particular Sunday),
the contract of employment between the shop worker and the employer is to be taken to be varied to the extent necessary to give effect to the terms of the agreement.
(5) The reference in subsection (1) to any agreement—
(a) includes the contract of employment under which the shop worker is employed immediately before giving the objection notice;
(b) includes an agreement of a kind mentioned in subsection (4), or a contract of employment as taken to be varied under that subsection, only if an objection notice is given in relation to the working of additional hours under that agreement or contract as varied.
43ZB Interpretation
(1) In this Part—
“additional hours” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“large shop” means a shop which has a relevant floor area exceeding 280 square metres;
“objection notice” has the meaning given in section 41A(2);
“regulations” means regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(2) In the definition of “large shop” in subsection (1)—
(a) “shop” means any premises where there is carried on a trade or business consisting wholly or mainly of the sale of goods;
(b) “relevant floor area” means the internal floor area of so much of the large shop in question as consists of or is comprised in a building.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (2), any part of the shop which is not used for the serving of customers in connection with the sale or display of goods is to be disregarded.
(4) The references in subsections (2) and (3) to the sale of goods does not include—
(a) the sale of meals, refreshments or alcohol (within the meaning of the Licensing Act 2003) for consumption on the premises on which they are sold, or
(b) the sale of meals or refreshments prepared to order for immediate consumption off those premises.”
7 After section 45 insert—
“45ZA Sunday working for shop workers: additional hours
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice to his or her employer and the notice has not been withdrawn.
(2) The shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by the employer done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply to anything done on the ground that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by his or her employer on the ground that the shop worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) Subsections (2) and (4) do not apply where the detriment in question amounts to dismissal (within the meaning of Part 10).
(6) For the purposes of this section, a shop worker who does not do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday is not to be regarded as having been subjected to any detriment by—
(a) a failure to pay remuneration in respect of doing shop work for additional hours on Sunday which the shop worker has not done, or
(7) Subsections (8) and (9) apply where—
(a) an employer offers to pay a sum specified in the offer to a shop worker if he or she agrees to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday, and
(b) the shop worker—
(i) has given an objection notice to the employer that has not been withdrawn, or
(ii) is not obliged under a contract of employment to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday.
(8) A shop worker to whom the offer is not made is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure—
(a) to make the offer to the shop worker, or
(b) to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(9) A shop worker who does not accept the offer is not to be regarded for the purposes of this section as having been subjected to any detriment by any failure to pay the shop worker the sum specified in the offer.
(10) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
8 After section 101 insert—
“101ZA Shop workers who refuse to work additional hours on Sunday
(1) Subsection (2) applies where a shop worker has given an objection notice that has not been withdrawn and he or she is dismissed.
(2) The shop worker is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or the principal reason) for the dismissal is that he or she refused, or proposed to refuse, to do shop work for additional hours on Sunday or on a particular Sunday.
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply where the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the shop worker refused (or proposed to refuse) to do shop work for additional hours on any Sunday or Sundays falling before the end of the relevant period.
(4) A shop worker who is dismissed is to be regarded for the purposes of this Part as unfairly dismissed if the reason (or principal reason) for the dismissal is that the worker gave (or proposed to give) an objection notice to the employer.
(5) In this section—
“additional hours” and “objection notice” have the meanings given by section 41A(2);
“relevant period” means the period determined by section 43ZA(2) (but subject to section 41D(3)).”
9 In section 236 (orders and regulations), in subsection (3) after “27B,” insert “41A that include provision under subsection (4)(c) of that section,”.
Employment Act 2002
10 In section 38 of the Employment Act 2002 (failure to give statement of employment particulars etc)—
(a) in subsection (2)(b), after “change)” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act (duty to give a written statement in relation to rights not to work on Sunday)”;
(b) in subsection (3)(b), after “1996” insert “or under section 41B or 41C of that Act”.”
This new Schedule contains amendments to employment legislation. The amendments: (a) shorten the notice period for opting out of Sunday work in the case of shop workers at large shops, (b) confer a new right to object to working additional hours on Sunday, (c) require employers to give statements explaining those rights, (d) confer protections against detriment and unfair dismissal for refusing to work additional hours on Sunday, and (e) provide for fines in tribunal proceedings if there is a failure to give explanatory statements.
Government amendment (a) to new schedule 1, after paragraph 4(4)(b) insert—
“(c) in the words after paragraph (b), omit “shop worker or””.
This is a technical amendment of NS1 which removes a further reference to a shop worker from section 42 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (as that section is to apply only to betting workers as a consequence of other amendments made by this New Schedule).
Government amendment (b) to new schedule 1, in new section 43ZB(4)(a), after “2003” insert
“or, in relation to Scotland, the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 (asp 16)”.
This is a technical amendment that provides for a definition of “alcohol” in relation to Scotland by reference to the relevant legislation of the Scottish Parliament.
Government amendments 76 and 77.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
It is a pleasure to make my first outing under your chairmanship, Ms Buck, even just for these last few minutes before we move on to the afternoon sitting.
In the 20 years since the Sunday Trading Act 1994 was passed, the nature of retail has changed. For example, internet retailers now operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and the working patterns of families have changed, so many now want greater flexibility about when they shop. New clause 21 devolves the power to extend Sunday trading hours to local authorities. That includes unitary authorities and district councils that are not unitary authorities across England and Wales, the elected Mayor of London and future mayors resulting from future devolution deals, including the Mayor of Greater Manchester.
Let me be clear. The Government will not dictate to local leaders how they should use the power. We are putting decision-making powers where they should be: in the hands of local leaders. Councils will be able to decide for themselves whether it is effective and appropriate to extend Sunday trading hours in their area, reflecting the needs of local businesses and communities and the shopping habits and economic conditions of the locality.
We have seen the rise of the internet, particularly in the past few years. As the Minister for high streets in the previous Parliament, I know from talking to retailers just how fast online retail is moving. In the UK, we already have the largest online market in Europe, and online sales have continued to increase, reaching 15% of total retail sales in 2015. Things are moving very quickly.
Local leaders will be able to use the consent notice to zone their local area, if they wish. That enables them, for example, to support local traders and independent shops in a focused way in and around high streets and market squares, helping them to compete with online retailers. Retailers in the west end and Knightsbridge— [Laughter.] While Members on the Opposition Benches laugh, I think they should listen to the figures, so that they realise just how important this matter is. Those retailers estimate that opening for just two extra hours on a Sunday would bring economic benefits in the region of between £190 million and £290 million annually. Those retailers also estimate that up to 2,160 full-time equivalent jobs would be created. Just think about what that could mean right across the country, not least in areas that have the opportunity to see real benefit, particularly given that Sunday is now the biggest online retailing day of the week. Devolving the powers will provide greater flexibility for businesses and shop workers and reduce prices for consumers. It will drive competition and productivity, creating jobs and boosting local economies.
Some shop workers are keen to have the opportunity to work longer hours on a Sunday. For them, the weekend represents the best or, in some cases, only time they can work. For example, it may be easier for them to access childcare or they may be students looking for extra or more part-time work.
Members will no doubt know that we have heard from many respondents with concerns that shop workers could be pressured to work on Sundays or to work more hours on a Sunday than they may want to, at the expense of important time with the family, for caring responsibilities or for religious observance. I am clear and up front that we recognise the need for effective protections for shop workers who do not want to work on Sundays or who do not want to work longer hours on Sundays. That is why new clause 21 introduces new schedule 1, which delivers significant strengthening of the rights for shop workers in England, Wales and Scotland by amending the Employment Rights Act 1996 and the Employment Act 2002. The new schedule reduces the notice period for shop workers to opt out of Sunday working altogether from three months to one month in large shops. We recognise that there is a bigger challenge for small shops, so they will need longer to find alternative staffing. The new schedule creates a new right for shop workers to opt out of working more than their normal Sunday working hours subject to one month’s notice for large shops and three months’ notice for small shops.
Brandon Lewis
I will give way in one second; I just want to finish the last point. The new schedule updates the obligation on employers to notify shop workers of their rights by specifying in regulations the form and content of the explanatory notice that employers must provide to existing and new shop workers. It also strengthens the consequences for failure to comply in some important ways.
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister talks about rights for shop workers, but surely he must understand that rights are only as good as the ability to use and enforce them. I could make many points, and I will when I make my speech, but one point I must make is that the Government have made it increasingly difficult for any employee to enforce their rights at work, so much of what he is saying is meaningless.
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that what I was just about to outline is a direct response to the point she raised. It is important that people are aware of their rights so that they can exercise them, which is why we are strengthening the consequences for failure to comply in two important ways. First, where the employer fails to comply with the notification requirement, the notice period for both opt-outs will reduce automatically from one month to just seven days for large shops, and from three months to one month for small shops. Secondly, we are enabling an employment tribunal to make a minimum award of two weeks’ pay if an employer is found to have failed to notify shop workers of their opt-out rights in the context of a related successful claim. In due course I shall explain how shop workers will be able to exercise and understand their rights.
Catherine McKinnell
What work have the Government undertaken to assess how many shop workers are currently able to exercise their existing rights to exempt themselves from Sunday working in order to inform these measures which, supposedly, protect employees who do not want to work on Sundays?
Brandon Lewis
All shop workers have that right, but my view is very much that we need to ensure that it is more transparent and that they have a better understanding. To exercise rights, people need to know what they are.
New schedule 1 provides powers to make regulations about the meaning of “normal Sunday working hours” and the form and content of explanatory notices. Amendment 76 will enable those powers to come into force on Royal Assent and allow the Government to pass the regulations, but naturally we intend the regulations themselves to come into force with the provisions on Sunday trading hours and the improvements to shop workers’ rights. We intend to define a shop worker’s “normal Sunday working hours” as an average over a number of Sundays, so that the phrase means essentially what it says but is specific enough that both the shop worker and the employer know where they stand. We will publish draft regulations and invite views from stakeholders to take into account issues such as seasonal work.
On the hon. Lady’s very fair point, our intention on the form and content of explanatory notices to shop workers is that as well as being updated, they will be in clearer English than the text in the existing legislation so that shop workers can clearly understand their rights and will be able to exercise them. We also intend to include pointers to sources of further information and advice, such as the ACAS helpline, guidance on gov.uk or, indeed, the relevant union. The changes amount to substantial improvements to shop workers’ rights.
Catherine McKinnell
In explaining the purpose of the clause, the Minister is shining a light on the big problem that the provisions will present to many shop workers in trying to remedy the situation in advance. He must recognise, though, that many shop workers do not want to enter into a dispute with their employer over this issue. Perhaps the Government should think again about whether they should introduce changes that will put both shop workers and their employers into a difficult position.
Brandon Lewis
Actually, we are enhancing the position for both employers and shop workers. We are improving shop workers’ rights and giving better access to and understanding of those rights; we are putting a bigger duty on employers to notify their staff of their rights; we are increasing the penalty for employers who do not abide by the rules; and, importantly, we are giving wider opportunity and choice to local economies and people who wish to work longer on a Sunday or to spend time with their families either by shopping on a Sunday or before or after they have shopped.
Let me be clear to the Committee more generally: if a shop worker suffers detriment, or is dismissed for exercising, or even just planning to exercise, their opt-out rights, the employer will be breaking the law. It is important that that is on the record so that anyone can see it.
Bill Esterson
How does the Minister envisage the rules being enforced? One concern that has been expressed is that the Government can legislate all they want on these sorts of things, but in the end it comes down to the balance of the relationship and whether anyone is prepared to challenge their employer. When a law has been broken, it comes down to whether anything meaningful—anything with teeth—can be applied. How will it work and how realistic are the proposals?
Brandon Lewis
I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that, if during the lunch break he looks back over what I said just a few moments ago, he will see that we are increasing the penalties on employers who do not abide by the rules. Not only are we increasing the financial penalty and, therefore, the benefit for an employee who is unfairly treated, but we are giving further responsibilities to the employer on the notice period that they need to give.
It is important that people understand what workers’ rights are, which is why we are increasing the number of ways for people to understand them and know how to exercise them. I say it again: a very large number of people in this country want to work longer hours and want the flexibility to be able to work more hours on a Sunday as opposed to other hours in the week.
Some retailers I have spoken to have been clear that in some areas Sunday is the easiest day of the week for them to recruit staff who want to work. It is good for family opportunities, and it is particularly good for women and students who want to work. We want to ensure that we create that opportunity for more local areas so that they have economic growth and create more jobs, and so that there are more opportunities for people to work if they want to, all while retaining the flexibility for both the local area and shop workers to have the choice.
Bill Esterson
Well, it is an incredibly important point. I was talking about the penalties. How likely is it that the rules will be enforced and the penalties used? We are told that there has been an impact assessment, but it has not been published yet, so we are in the dark as to just how effective the remedies are going to be.
Brandon Lewis
I will admit that it is some years since I was working in employment law, but the laws have been around for a long time. The process by which employees can use their rights has been there and has been developing and evolving for a long time. We are developing it further by increasing employees’ rights.
Not only Conservative but Labour local authorities are keen to have these powers so that they can see their local areas grow and have that flexibility. Ultimately, I feel so passionately about this not only because of the opportunity to see high streets flourish when they can compete with online shopping, which is growing exponentially—not only can we now shop online on Sundays, but companies will deliver at any hour on a Sunday, so we need to give our high streets that chance—but because it is about devolving power, moving it from central Government to where it matters: local communities.
I shall now touch briefly on the technical amendments we have tabled. Amendment (a) to new schedule 1 amends the new schedule to remove an additional reference to a “shop worker” from section 42 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. To be clear, that is simply because, as a consequence of the changes we are making, that section will no longer apply to shop workers. Amendment (b) to new schedule 1 amends the new schedule to provide for a definition of “alcohol” in relation to Scotland by reference to the relevant legislation of the Scottish Parliament. Finally, amendment 77 amends the long title of the Bill to include reference to the Sunday trading provisions.
Kevin Brennan
The Minister said it might be worth while if, over the lunch break, we were to look at what he said earlier. Would he be able to provide us with a copy of his notes? Otherwise we will have to rely on what we heard. We can do that, but he did offer.
Brandon Lewis
I can repeat what I said for the hon. Gentleman very clearly. First, where the employer fails to comply with the notification requirement, the notice period for both opt-outs will reduce automatically: from one month to seven days at large shops, and from three months to one month at small shops. Secondly, we are enabling an employment tribunal to make a minimum award if an employer is found to have failed to notify shop workers of their opt-out rights in the context of a related successful claim. With that, I commend the new clause to the Committee.
Bill Esterson
Finally, we have the long-anticipated debate on Sunday trading. Until the eve of Committee stage, uncertainty reigned as to whether we would be debating it at all—as it was, of course, only the week before that the Secretary of State had announced that Sunday trading would be part of the Bill. From what the Minister just said, it seems that the new clause might be more correctly called the “Harrods clause”, given that Knightsbridge is the only part of the country he could cite where there is support from the high street for the Government’s proposals.
Brandon Lewis
As I am sure the hon. Gentleman will recollect, I explained the matter to him. Think of the impact across the country. Even in a constituency such as mine, where tourism in its high street is looking to compete with out-of-town shops and online, it is a massive opportunity. I gave an example to highlight just how big these numbers are and how many jobs will potentially be created. I hope he understands that.
Bill Esterson
Those are points I will come to. I did not know that Harrods had a shop in the Minister’s constituency or that it contained the Knightsbridge of the east.
The other description might have been the “domino clause”. The Minister talked about local leaders having the opportunity. The Opposition fully support the proper devolution of powers and responsibilities, and the ability to make a difference in the local area. Although he talked about local leaders, he did not talk about the views of the local community, the workers affected or the small independent retailers and the impact the proposals will have on many small shops.
The problem is that, when talking to local authority leaders and chief executives, as some organisations have done, one main reason given for saying they may well end up implementing these provisions is that they feel they have no choice. Their neighbours having allowed Tesco, Asda or out-of-town shopping centres to have extended opening hours on a Sunday, they fear that loss of trade within their own boundaries will force them down the route of using these provisions in their own local authority area.
The Government knew full well that any attempt to reform Sunday trading legislation would spark significant debate and opposition from a wide range of stakeholders. The Prime Minister’s spokeswoman wrote on 20 April last year to the campaign group Keep Sunday Special assuring them that the Conservatives had no plans to relax Sunday trading laws. Indeed, it was not in the Conservative party manifesto. She wrote:
“I can assure you that we have no current plans to relax the Sunday trading laws. We believe that the current system provides a reasonable balance between those who wish to see more opportunity to shop in large stores on a Sunday, and those who would like to see further restrictions.”
There we have it. Presumably, in the Conservative party, the Government and the previous coalition Government, when the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson spoke it was on his behalf and we should take as gospel what she said at the time. The country as a whole should have trusted what we were told on 20 April. The Government knew this would be opposed and were that worried about it that they went so far as to reassure the country before the election that they had no plans to change Sunday trading laws. They knew it would be opposed, cause problems and break the consensus that had stood for 22 years, since the Sunday Trading Act 1994.
The amendments we are considering include a change to the name of the Bill in amendment 77, as the Minister has just said, to include Sunday trading. We have to wonder what is going on when a Bill started in the Lords and went through the entire Lords proceedings without any mention of Sunday trading. Only on Second Reading in this House was Sunday trading mentioned. In fact, it was so late that Members who oppose changes to Sunday trading did not even know the Bill would consider it.
I spoke to a number of Members on the Government Benches on the day of Second Reading and they had no idea that the issue was in the Bill because they were not in the Chamber to hear the Secretary of State mention it in his opening speech. Had they been, they could have made their opposition clear and raised their concerns but there was no such opportunity for Government Members. That is a great shame.
Housing and Planning Bill (First sitting)
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(9 years ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
I am organising a seminar on 20 November called “How should Norfolk grow?” It has eight commercial sponsors: Barclays bank, the New Anglia local enterprise partnership, the local train franchise, Anglian Water, Saffron Housing, Norwich International airport, Swallowtail Print and the Maids Head hotel.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
May I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests?
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
May I also draw the Committee’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests?
Mr Jackson
Q 17 Obviously there is a predisposition in the Bill towards support for residential accommodation and housing in London and across the country. What impact do you think that might have, specifically in London, on commercial and business premises?
Richard Blakeway: I think that some of the issues in relation to the conversion of office to residential are actually outside the Bill. None the less, we very much welcome the Government’s agreement that there will be an exemption until May 2019 for some of the existing areas that we have sought exemptions for, such as the CAZ—the central activities zone—the Royal Docks enterprise zone, Tech City, and the northern part of the Isle of Dogs. We really welcome the Government’s move on that. Clearly, the article 4 measure allows those areas to formulate an application to extend the exemption beyond 2019 and there is obviously a window to do that.
Brandon Lewis
Q 18 May I take you back to the conversation a few minutes ago about starter homes? Are you able to give us an idea, even if it is a ballpark figure, of the average price paid by a first-time buyer for a home in London?
Richard Blakeway: A ballpark price would be about £290,000. I think that is based on CML data.
Brandon Lewis
Q 19 So that is somewhere below the cap for starter homes?
Richard Blakeway: Correct.
Brandon Lewis
Q 20 So at what sort of level would you like or do you expect starter homes to be provided for in London?
Richard Blakeway: A similar level. That is why I do not see the cap as an issue. It is striking, for example, that the purchase price with shared ownership is broadly the same price as first-time buyers pay on the open market; again, it is about £290,000. It is logical, therefore, to expect starter homes to be in a similar price bracket.
Brandon Lewis
Q 21 From the work you have done looking at this and the opportunities for London in the starter homes brand, do you see that as an opportunity to get an overall increase in the housing supply in London—to push that supply up?
Richard Blakeway: Yes. We see a real role for starter homes within the capital. As I have set out and as you know from our conversations, we expect that to happen alongside other products, such as shared ownership, which can play a different but similar role to promote low cost of ownership in London. We think there is a real opportunity to increase not just the volume, but the proportion of low cost of ownership opportunities in London with a suite of products, including starter homes and shared ownership. What we would like to see is a role for the Mayor of London to co-ordinate that being reflected in the Bill—a change to the Bill to enable that.
Dr Blackman-Woods
Q 22 How can you be so confident? Have you carried out work on this to know that other affordable housing products will also be delivered alongside starter homes?
Richard Blakeway: I think I have expressed some caution to the extent of saying that some of the issues in relation to starter homes will be set out in the regulations, and that to undertake a full assessment we need to see the regulations. One critical thing is what percentage of starter homes are required on each site—that is a critical issue that will be set out in the regulations. What we have said very clearly, however, is that the quota of starter homes will be applied, but then we would expect that the London plan policy, which seeks to maximise affordable housing, will also be applied afterwards. So the two tests are still applied to schemes.
Brandon Lewis
Q 23 Just to finish off my query on starter homes, bearing in mind your comments a few minutes ago about planning permission in principle on brownfield land and the London Land Commission—I should declare that I am joint chair—do you see a role for the work that the London Land Commission is doing in identifying land, working with that brownfield register and planning in principle in being able to deliver homes such as starter homes?
Richard Blakeway: Yes, and that is why I think some of the changes that we are suggesting to strengthen the strategic role that already exists for the Mayor of London are important so that we can co-ordinate each of those elements. As you say, each of them are connected and interrelated. So the changes to allow us to strengthen the land commission and have that duty of co-operation, the changes so that we can issue development orders in relation to planning in principle—PIPs—and the changes to allow us to co-ordinate and ensure that boroughs are in conformity with the brownfield register are all really important, and it is important that the GLA and the Mayor play a strong role.
Brandon Lewis
Q 24 Okay, I have two other areas that I want to touch on. I know my colleague wants to jump in as well. The current Mayor and your office have had some fairly ambitious targets around housing provision for London and have achieved some really good numbers. I know you have big ambitions going forward—on Second Reading we heard my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (James Berry) outline some of his ambitions, which involved having more extra homes built in London for every home sold, which is the point you were making. With the brownfield registers, planning permission in principle, the compulsory purchase order changes, the section 106 changes and so on that are outlined in the Housing Bill, and the work that the London Land Commission is doing, what do you think that means for affordable housing provision in London and for the work of your office?
Richard Blakeway: I think it strengthens our ability to drive house building within the capital, and it helps us to achieve our target of seeing 49,000 homes completed each year—a level that has not been seen since the 1930s. Clearly, it gives a stronger role to the Mayor to build upon his existing strategic planning powers. It also enables new roles in relation to co-ordinating affordable products in the capital, particularly around low cost of ownership, and enabling surplus land to come forward and identifying brownfield opportunities. So I think the combination of those measures will help us to achieve our goal to double house building.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Marcus Jones)
Q 25 Good morning, Mr Blakeway. Much of the Bill is rightly predicated on supply, but using the existing stock we have to support people into housing is also extremely important. How do you think the Bill will support landlords in recovering properties that have been abandoned?
Richard Blakeway: It is clearly useful that the Bill seeks to enable landlords to do that. We need to undertake a full analysis of how it would work in the capital, but we think it is a useful measure that has been introduced.
Brandon Lewis
Q 45 Councillor Glanville, to take you back to your earlier remarks, can you clarify something for me? I think you said that you have recently been able to negotiate down to—did you say 10% of affordable housing? You linked that to starter homes. Can you clarify exactly what you were saying?
Phil Glanville: I think that close to 10% of the Mount Pleasant sites on the border between Islington and Camden—the Royal Mail redevelopment—are affordable.
Brandon Lewis
Q 46 How does that link to starter homes, which have not actually come in yet? I am struggling with why you were linking a scheme that you are negotiating at around 10% with a policy that has not actually come into force yet.
Phil Glanville: Well, the developers work to the viability principles that are set out by the GLA.
Brandon Lewis
Q 47 I am trying to understand how that links to starter homes, which are not yet in force.
Phil Glanville: I think the starter homes will be seen as the first port of call when it comes to the delivery of affordable housing.
Brandon Lewis
Q 48 Right. Just to clarify, the local authority’s negotiation to 10% has nothing to do with the starter homes policy, because that policy is not in place yet.
Phil Glanville: No, but I fear for the future.
Brandon Lewis
Q 49 You also said that you want to build on a lot of the land that you, as a local authority, own. How much land have you got and not built on yet?
Phil Glanville: I do not have that figure in front of me, Minister.
Brandon Lewis
Q 50 Why have you not started building programmes on that land already?
Phil Glanville: We are building 3,000 homes on 18 sites, which is the largest development programme in inner London, and we are looking at a further 15 sites that we hope to develop on-site before 2018. We are making good use of our right-to-buy receipts, which we do not have to return to Government. We are doing all we can to develop new homes on our land within the housing revenue account cap. Once we have been through those sites and built that capacity, we will look at innovating, whether with almshouses, co-ops or housing associations. We are very ambitious about building new homes on our land. As I say, we have one of the largest development programmes in the capital.
Brandon Lewis
Q 51 I have been to see things such as City Mills, which is a really good example of great regeneration work that is bringing back more density. You talked about the HRA cap. How big a cap do you need? What extra capacity do you need in your HRA?
Phil Glanville: We have £168 million, and we have had some recent extensions, which obviously I welcome, from DCLG. It is about having flexibility. Nobody wants to go out and borrow £200 million, £300 million or £400 million, but the way the deals are structured means that to get the best value for the council, you often front-load the development costs to get the best value out of the development. That means that you need more flexibility around the cap, so you can have negotiated periods in which you can exceed the cap for two or three years and then come back down below it. All these schemes would need prudential borrowing requirements and proper financial management—they would not be signed off by the relevant council officers if they did not. A process, even where we had to go to the Secretary of State for that kind of permission, would be useful. I do not think anyone wants to run up the national debt, but the point is to have the flexibility to ensure that the development we need gets off the ground.
Brandon Lewis
Q 52 Are you using your un-ring-fenced reserves for this kind of work or just relying on the HRA?
Phil Glanville: We are looking at using the general fund to fund some of the private homes in those developments.
Brandon Lewis
Q 53 So with your current programmes, you have had an increase in building of over 60% since 2010, which is really good. We want to see more homes, and it is particularly good to see that kind of increase in supply. I assume from your earlier comment, that you also support housing supply and home ownership. Bearing in mind we are rebuilding—the reality is that we dropped below 200,000 first-time buyers in 2009; the figure is back to double what it was then, but we want to see that go further, so that more people have the chance to own their own home—surely starter homes have an important part to play in that. I emphasise, as I think Rick Blakeway did earlier, that there is a difference between the price and cap. I appreciate we all want to see houses below that price, but surely creating affordable homes for first-time buyers is quite an important part of the mix.
Phil Glanville: They could be part of the mix. The challenge of meeting the aspiration for home ownership is whether starter homes are truly affordable in boroughs such as Hackney and inner London where incomes are around £40,000 and below. That can work in shared ownership at the moment within the borough. We are building 500 shared ownership ourselves, because we want to meet that aspiration for low-cost home ownership.
The challenge is where the affordability is. The reality is also that, whether shared ownership or other forms of low-cost ownership like Pocket, they are there in perpetuity, whereas with the starter home discount only the initial purchaser benefits from it and is locked in for five years. That is also a challenge when we go back to the planning process and communities and social mix.
One of the things the planning process is there to do is to ensure that we have a mixed community and development—to have people like “them”, I suppose, in context. When people protest against new development, they often say, “My sons and daughters couldn’t purchase a home there.” The challenge is that, because starter homes come in before other forms of affordable housing, we will not see local people being able to afford to buy them. They will just be on the London market. The need is there, but I think we need to have another look at starter homes.
Brandon Lewis
Q 54 So to an extent, you would agree with what Rick Blakeway said—that they are an important part of a mix. Do you want to see a mix?
Phil Glanville: I just want to see a truly affordable mix, yes.
Brandon Lewis
Q 55 Councillor Tett, on a completely different topic and just taking the LGA—we have become very London-focused in the last half an hour.
Martin Tett: I hadn’t noticed.
Brandon Lewis
Q 56 I appreciate you sit on a county council, having visited you a few times in Buckinghamshire. Looking at part 6 of the Bill on neighbourhood planning, you have a number of areas in your county going through a neighbourhood plan process or which already have the plans. Some 1,600 or so are going through across the country. In terms of giving more flexibility, ease and speed to that process of creating the plans, do you think this could potentially play quite a big part in making sure that communities are more supportive of local development, where they feel they have that control? One of the challenges behind neighbourhood planning is that, like local plans, it is time-consuming. Do you think speeding up the process across local government and more importantly in the communities themselves will be welcomed?
Martin Tett: Are we supportive of neighbourhood planning? Absolutely. There is an enormous advantage in allowing local communities to shape the future of their own area, be they villages or towns; not just in terms of housing, but in terms of the style and architecture and where the facilities are based. We have seen significant engagement across the country where neighbourhood planning has been introduced.
One of the issues that arises is that sometimes neighbourhood planning runs ahead of the other local plan, for example, in district councils in rural areas. We have a number of examples where neighbourhood plans are in place but there is no local plan for the surrounding district, so they lack the overall planning context of how many houses the area will have. They may face the disappointment that, in the future, they have to effectively redo their plan because the housing numbers are significantly higher than were originally anticipated. Certainly in terms of community engagement, they have been successful. From the point of view of Buckinghamshire and from talking with other county leaders, I think neighbourhood plans have gained a lot of traction across the country.
Brandon Lewis
Q 57 If we are able to get the neighbourhood plans simpler and a bit quicker to get through for communities, but with links to areas that have a local plan, do you think that that proper, joined-up approach for community engagement and for ultimately delivering the housing we need would be welcomed by the local authorities?
Martin Tett: I am just trying to make sure that I fully understood your question. In terms of speeding up the delivery of local plans, we welcome anything that makes the local planning process simpler. We still believe that democratic accountability in local planning is important. That is what gets the local community buy-in to the ultimate adoption of local plans. Not in every case will the local community be fully supportive of a local plan, but if it is seen to be the local councillors they voted for who can explain to them why something has been done and why it is necessary, by and large you will get more acceptance than, for example, if there were, in extremis, a Government inspector appointed from Bristol who comes in and effectively writes the local plan for a community. We would like to ensure that local communities and local councillors effectively remain in the driving seats in developing local plans for their areas and that neighbourhood planning fits within the context of an overall local plan adopted by a council.
The Chair
Minister, can I be rude enough to say that with an eye on the clock, I want to hear from Roberta Blackman-Woods?
Brandon Lewis
Q 90 Very briefly, returning to the first part of the Bill, Mr Thomas made a comment earlier about linking right to buy and starter homes. Mr Orr, bearing in mind that the voluntary agreement means that for every home sold an extra home will be built, do you think that right to buy will lead to a housing supply increase? Within that, do you think that housing associations will be looking to deliver starter homes as part of the mix of housing that they deliver, and will be able to do this?
David Orr: Yes and yes. There will be an increase in supply, which will liberate some presently trapped assets that can be used for building new homes. Housing associations will build some starter homes, and they will build a lot of shared ownership homes. They will build as much social housing for rent as they can, and they will continue to build for market sale and market rent. We are becoming much more pluralist in the offer that we make to the nation.
Sinéad Butters: But—
The Chair
I am sorry, Ms Butters, but we have come to 11.25 am, which is an absolutely sharp cut-off point. I apologise for cutting you off in that way. I thank both our witnesses for their evidence. It has been extremely useful and interesting, and we are most grateful.
Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(9 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Hilary Benn
That really takes the biscuit—trying to allege that somehow the Government are counting properly. The fact is that before the last election, the Prime Minister said that it is
“a disgrace that in the fifth biggest economy in the world…we have people homeless, people sleeping on the streets”.
I agree with him. It is a disgrace and people should hold him to account for his shocking record.
We shall deal with the housing crisis only if we have a comprehensive plan. We have one—the most comprehensive in a generation—in the form of the Lyons review, which we will implement from day one of a Labour Government. We will make housing a national priority for capital investment. We will work with housing associations and councils to make it easier to build council houses, building on the changes we made to the housing revenue account.
We need more firms to be building. Thirty to 40 years ago, two thirds of the homes in this country were built by small and medium-sized builders; that proportion is now less than a third. Ask small builders what the problem is and they say, “I can’t get access to land and I can’t get access to finance.” We will introduce a help to build scheme, which will allow small and medium-sized builders to get lower-cost bank lending, supported by Treasury guarantees. We will encourage local authorities and others to make more innovative use of public sector land, investing in it as equity instead of selling it to the highest bidder, because that will also help us to deliver more affordable homes.
We will use Treasury guarantees and financial incentives to support the building of garden cities, and we will ensure that every council has a local plan. The Minister of State, the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), said that it is not necessary for every council to have a plan, but I think it is the responsibility of every local authority in England to have a local plan. Why would someone seek to be elected to an authority, or to be its leader, if they were not going to draw up a plan for the future of their community that included how they will meet the housing needs of the people who elected them?
The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)
Has the right hon. Gentleman looked through the details of the builders finance fund, which deals with this issue? Why does he not trust local councils to represent local people with a local plan driven by local people, for local people, instead of the top-down approach that failed for 13 years?
Hilary Benn
It is very simple: the Minister and I have a different view. I think every local authority should have a local plan. To be perfectly honest, I cannot understand why a local authority would not want a local plan, given the structure of the national planning policy framework. I think that is an obligation. The Minister and I disagree. He is entitled to his view and I am entitled to mine.
Hilary Benn
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As we have heard in this debate, the problem is most acute in London. The consequences of not building sufficient affordable homes are being felt in many ways, such as in the number of people who are privately renting, in higher rents that people cannot afford and in the housing benefit bill. Ultimately, it is a self-defeating approach.
One problem is that the process of house building has been far too passive for local authorities in many parts of the country. They identify the land and then hope that someone will come along with a proposal. The Lyons review is about creating the means—the tools—for local authorities. I bet Ministers wish that they had applied their minds and come up with a report like the Lyons review.
Brandon Lewis
Will the right hon. Gentleman at least acknowledge that as a result of trusting local people with local and neighbourhood plans, a record number of some 250,000 homes were given planning approval last year, which is way beyond what Labour was achieving? Why does he not just trust local people like we do?
Hilary Benn
As the hon. Gentleman is well aware, I am a strong supporter of neighbourhood planning, and I have said so from this Dispatch Box on many occasions. He will just have to wait until his Government manage to complete more homes in one year than we managed in any one of our 13 years before he stands up and says, “Our record is better than yours”, because his record is much worse than ours.
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman being so generous with his time. To be fair, Labour finished off with 85,000 homes in its last year—the lowest level since 1923—and we have delivered some 500,000 homes in the last few years, so he really should think again.
Hilary Benn
The hon. Gentleman is, of course, referring to the consequences of a global recession. [Hon. Members: “Ah!”] Well, it was a global recession. The Secretary of State made specific promises about what the Government were going to do and they have comprehensively failed.
The Lyons review says to communities, “In return for taking responsibility for building the homes that you need, we will give you the powers that you need when you identify sites.” I have listened to debates in this House in which Members, particularly Government Members, have said, “We don’t understand it. We’ve identified sites, but the developers come along and say, ‘I don’t fancy building there. It’s not viable for me. I’m going to put in a planning application for that greenfield site over there.’” Up and down the country, that is happening. It is a great frustration for local authorities and citizens, because if they identify sites, the deal in return has to be that that is where the development will take place. If we are just dependent on the big house builders, we will never get to the figures that we need and it will undermine the public consent that, we all agree, is fundamental to making progress on house building.
We must say to local authorities, “Here’s a range of tools that you can use to ensure that the kind of homes you want get built in the places you have identified and go to the people who need them.” That is why the one other thing that we will do is to give local authorities a planning power to say that in housing growth areas a percentage of the new homes that are built for sale should, in the first instance, be reserved for local first-time buyers. If we do that, we will turn quite a few nimbys into yimbys, because they will realise that their son or daughter, or their neighbour’s son or daughter, will have the chance to get one of those houses.
If we are to get to the target that we have set of 200,000 homes a year by 2020—I say to Ministers that surely their experience over the past four years has taught them that we will not do it by trying to put a bit more petrol into the old house building engine and cranking it up—there has to be a fundamental change in the way the house building market works.
Let me turn to economic evolution and growth. I acknowledge what the Secretary of State has done with deals for some cities—it would be churlish not to—but there is an unanswered question: if he and the Government are so committed to devolution, why has progress been so slow, patchy and piecemeal? Manchester aside, why have such limited powers been offered to a small number of large cities. Why, as the Local Government Chronicle put it yesterday, has DCLG
“almost seemed peripheral, a bystander to the devolution debate”?
Why has Lord Kerslake, now free from the responsibilities of office, said—again in the Local Government Chronicle—that
“it was only well into its fourth year that the government woke up to the benefits of devolution”?
I suspect there is plenty more where that came from. Why has the right hon. Gentleman stepped aside while the Chancellor and Deputy Prime Minister have had a row about whether powers can be devolved and whether we need a metro mayor? Perhaps he is not actually in charge of the policy.
What about the great counties of England? Until the Chancellor got up on Wednesday and finally adopted Labour’s policy on 100% retention of business rate income growth, which he said he would apply to Cambridge and Greater Manchester, the counties of England had frankly been ignored. The Secretary of State will be only too well aware of how angry his colleagues in the counties have been at his failure to stand up for them. It was noticeable last year that at the meeting of the County Councils Network—the great annual gathering of county councils—not a single DCLG Commons Minister could manage to clear their diaries to turn up to address what was mainly their party colleagues.
It is not a very long journey to Marlow—about an hour in the ministerial car—and I think the real reason is what happened to the Secretary of State the previous year at the 2013 conference. LocalGov.co.uk reported it thus:
“Mr Pickles received a hostile reception at the conference…During questions, the Tory leader of Leicestershire, CC Nick Rushton, asked the secretary of state: ‘Why are you always so rude to us?—
I am sure the Secretary of State remembers that well—
“It’s about time you spoke up for us in Government.’”
I sympathise with the Secretary of State because with friends like that who needs us on the Opposition Benches? It is the unfairness that makes people angry. The truth is that his Conservative colleagues in the counties know that they will get a better deal from a Labour Government than they have got from the Tory Government, and the same is true for the city regions.
Beer Duty Escalator
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(12 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Greg Mulholland
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The key point from the hub perspective, as opposed to the beer perspective, is that beer duty is simply absorbed by the big supermarkets. They do not need to pass it on. They do not even have to make a profit from beer. Indeed, they have been shown to be selling irresponsibly at a loss. The point is not one of unfairness, though; the escalator simply makes no sense in terms of the Government’s own agenda, because it pushes people away from drinking in the sociable, controlled environment of the pubs and social clubs around the country, and encourages them to drink at home.
Beer is now 10 times more expensive in pubs than in supermarkets. That cannot be good. I am delighted to see the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), who has responsibility for community pubs, in his place. I welcome him to his post and look forward to working with him, as well as with the Economic Secretary. Frankly, though, we should also have a Health Minister attending this debate, given the health impacts that are being discussed.
The beer duty escalator does not make economic sense. It was introduced in 2008, at a time when alcohol duties were keeping pace with rising incomes and when inflation was considerably lower. Now, incomes have fallen, inflation is higher and VAT has risen. The simple reality is that since 2004 beer duty rates have increased by 60% and beer duty revenue by just 10%—a significant fall in real terms. As well as the damage to jobs, in putting up the duty, the Government are simply not taking the revenue projected. It is nonsense. It is a tax that simply does not add up.
It is encouraging to see Opposition Members now opposing the escalator. We have this strange situation, though, in which Labour, which introduced it, now opposes it, and Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs who opposed it at the time now support it. Can we not unite the House now and say that this silly tax should go? We are sending that message loud and clear today.
I know that the Economic Secretary is a fan of pubs, and I know his Bromsgrove constituency well, because it is where my in-laws come from. I often visit and am pleased to drink in some of his local pubs. As well as announcing—I hope—that he will conduct this review, will he take the opportunity to consider other forms of progressive taxation that can help the British pub? There are various ways of doing that.
On the question of whether we can tax cask beer or real ale—or, indeed, all draught ale—separately, there is of course the problem of European regulation, as the Economic Secretary will point out when he sums up. First, we should challenge those regulations, but secondly may I put to him the interesting possibility presented by the duty-free element on cask beer? The reason for the duty-free element is the sediment in cask beer and the fact that cask beer requires much more care and effort to store, and lasts for a much shorter time. At the moment, we have a complex regime under which different breweries have different rates for different casks of beer. It is very complex and costly to administer. Could we not consider standardising the allowance and being generous with it, because it could provide a perfectly legal way of applying a lower rate of duty for real ale, our great British beer?
I also ask the Economic Secretary to consider the report by the Institute for Public Policy Research on the possibility of community pubs being granted 50% business rate relief if they can demonstrate their social and community impact. It has come up with a test, and I urge him and his officials to look into that and other ways of benefiting the pub in the way that right hon. and hon. Members are suggesting, alongside getting rid of the beer duty escalator.
As the chair of the save the pub group, I would be the first to say that the beer duty escalator is not the only issue facing pubs. There are others that should also rightly be tackled. I want to raise with my hon. Friend the Minister the issue of large pub companies and the large pub-owning breweries. Unfortunately, the large pub companies’ tenants and lessees also face their own pubco escalator, with unfair rises resulting from the eye-watering debts that those companies incurred because of their irresponsible actions some years ago. It is also important to tackle that. When my hon. Friend announces the review, as I hope he will, I hope he will also make it absolutely clear to those companies that they should pass on any drop in beer duty, because if they do not, those tied pubs will see no benefit whatever. In conducting the review and, we hope, making that announcement in the Budget next year, he must issue and receive a firm guarantee that any drop will be passed on, so that it benefits licensees and can therefore be passed on to customers, so that those pubs can become more attractive in competing with free houses.
My final point—I say this to the community pubs Minister—is that we must look at giving more protection to pubs in planning law.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the work we have done to allow the community right to buy and to bid has been helpful—just this afternoon I am visiting the Norton pub, which has been taken over by the community in order to save its local pub—and that any work we can do to support those pubs will be helpful?
Greg Mulholland
I thank the Minister for that, and I look forward to working positively with him. The inclusion of pubs in the national policy planning framework is hugely positive. I would also point him in the direction of Cambridge city council’s excellent policy, which I hope he will encourage other councils to follow.
At the moment we face a ludicrous situation, which is absolutely pertinent to this debate. We talk about supermarkets and wanting people to drink in pubs, but at the moment the planning system allows pubs to be turned into Tesco and Sainsbury’s shops without even having to go through the planning process and without any opportunity for the community to have a say. The supermarkets are engaged in the predatory purchasing of profitable pubs from indebted pub companies that are desperate to sell them just to try to balance their books. The Minister is the man who can stop it, by making very simple changes to the planning law and dealing with the fact that free-standing pubs can be demolished. I hope that there is progress, but there are also simple things that I hope he will do—both as part of this process and in getting rid of the beer duty escalator—so that the Government can live up to the Prime Minister’s claim about this being a pub-friendly Government.
As I hope I have pointed out already, and as I know many colleagues will, it is absolutely fantastic to see so many colleagues here when those of us on this side of the House have been put, I believe wrongly, on a one-line Whip. Whatever the vote, and even if there is no vote, it is absolutely clear what the will of the House is on this issue, and the Government must not ignore it. The beer duty escalator does not make economic or social sense. It is unfair, unsustainable and unjustifiable. I hope the Minister will have the courage today to say, “We will have the review,” and I look forward to a sensible economic strategy for growth in next year’s Budget which involves abolishing the beer duty escalator once and for all.
Bank of England (Appointment of Governor) Bill
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Stephen Hammond
In this case, it would be for the judgment of the Treasury Committee or the Government. Someone with some financial experience might well be helpful in the current world.
This is not a filibuster, because this is exactly the point at which I am going to leave the history of the Governors of the Bank of England, merely making the point that the Treasury Committee might have rejected some of the candidates who have been appointed, even though they have been among the most excellent Governors of the Bank of England.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
Under the current system, with a Select Committee able to provide a view, if not exercise a veto, is it not the case that any concerns could be made very public and very clear to the Government? That can already happen in the present system.
Stephen Hammond
I can only concur.
The Financial Services Bill, now in the other place, is designed to redress the inadequacies of the current regulatory regime. As the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington noted, the new proposals view the Bank of England as absolutely at the heart of the regulatory system. It will now be charged, which it was not previously, with the protection and enhancement of the UK’s financial system. I do not need to rehearse in detail the fact that the Bank of England is therefore charged with looking at the working of the Financial Policy Committee and, underneath it, the Prudential Regulatory Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority.
Stephen Hammond
My contention was not that he would not have been appointed, but that he might not have been, simply because he had been a Bank of England insider all his life and had no experience of other parts of the financial system, or indeed of the economy. I am merely suggesting that if we empower the Committee to appoint the Governor, it may not take account of a number of the salient factors that the Chancellor can consider. It may take a narrower view.
The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), who has now left the Chamber, made an interesting point about a split along political lines. In the case of Lord George, Committee members on both sides of the political divide might have taken the view, as a caucus, that a Bank of England insider would be entirely inappropriate as a Governor. I am not saying that he would not have been appointed; and my earlier remarks were not a filibuster, but a deliberate attempt to show that the appointments of some of the greatest Governors might have been called into question.
The Financial Services Bill rightly confers increased powers of scrutiny, but I do not understand how this Bill would safeguard independence, and I did not hear the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington explain that this morning. When he kindly allowed me to intervene earlier, I suggested that it would safeguard the independence of the Governor from the Government, but did not necessarily take account of his independence from Parliament. I think he should bear in mind the possibility that the independence of both the appointee and the institution itself would be undermined if the Treasury Committee were given the power of veto.
Brandon Lewis
Could it not be argued that if the Committee had such a direct power of appointment and veto, that in itself could bring into question its ability properly to scrutinise an independent Governor for whose appointment it was responsible in the first place?
Stephen Hammond
That is an interesting and valid point, and one that I had not intended to make myself. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend’s views in more detail.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
I oppose the Bill. Based on the principles and the ethos expressed by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), I share one or two common interests with him. I understand that he attended the local grammar school in my constituency of Great Yarmouth in his formative years, and I am sure that he still holds our town in great affection, as do I as its Member of Parliament. His reason for introducing the Bill is to ensure that there is full and proper scrutiny and an open and transparent approach to the appointment of such an important position, but I fear that that is the only principle on which, for this morning at least, the hon. Gentleman and I are likely to agree.
The Bill threatens us with direct parliamentary interference in the appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England and, through that, unnecessarily jeopardises the wider political independence of the Bank. I want to address two particular elements of how the Bill approaches the problem, on which some comment has already been made. First, does it provide the right mechanism in how it goes about considering an appointment? I will come to that point in a few moments. Secondly, what effect would such a change have on how the Select Committee works and on the role of a Select Committee? As a member of the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, I fully appreciate its scrutiny role, and we have also considered appointments and commented on them. To my knowledge, there has not yet been a cry from our Committee to have the direct power of veto or appointment. It is simply important that the Committee has the chance to interview, take a view and make clear our opinion on a particular appointment.
I understand that the Bill was drafted in response to the comments made in wider circles, including by the Treasury Committee, about the need to have a greater say in the appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England. That has arisen partly through the extension of powers provided by the Financial Services Bill. That Bill, as we know, is being examined in Committee in another place at this very moment and I am sure that that scrutiny will involve comment on whether there is any need for direct parliamentary involvement in the appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England.
Mr Hoban
I want to offer some assistance to my hon. Friend and to the House. The subject was debated in the other place recently and the noble Lord McFall withdrew his amendment suggesting that the Treasury Committee should have such a role, in recognition of the fact that many in the other place felt that that was going far too far.
Brandon Lewis
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, which highlights the fact that when this subject was considered in depth in the other place the view was taken that the Bill might not be the right way forward. When their lordships considered whether the non-statutory arrangements for scrutinising the appointment of the Governor and the deputy governors were adequate, they will have done so in the light of the extensive new powers in the Bill and will have considered whether the Treasury Committee might or might not require a more formal role in the process. They have clearly commented on that. That process and involvement would require legislation to enshrine it in law and the Bill endeavours to formalise that process within the law. I am sure the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington will have read carefully the Lords deliberations in Committee to see whether there are any pronouncements in favour of the course of action that he prefers. So far, as we heard from the Minister, the Lords seems to have taken the view that that is not necessarily appropriate.
I shall listen carefully to the views expressed today and those expressed in another place. At present my view is that the Bill would interfere with, rather than strengthen, the Select Committee’s scrutiny. The current system used for the non-statutory hearings that precede the appointment of members of the Monetary Policy Committee is working and should continue to be used for the appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England. The Treasury Committee has held those hearings since 1997 and has carefully scrutinised, reviewed and commented on appointees.
Members of the Select Committee have disagreed with the Government’s nominee. They urged the then Chancellor of the Exchequer to think again about appointing the economist Christopher Allsopp to the MPC. Well known in some circles for his flexibility on policy, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) promptly took no notice of the Committee’s recommendation and went ahead with that appointment. That was his ministerial prerogative, as he was exercising the powers that he was given as a member of the Executive. A Treasury Committee report after that incident was still able to observe that the hearings played an important role nonetheless.
In a parliamentary democracy it is right for Ministers to make Executive decisions and it is also right for Parliament to scrutinise those decisions. I stress the word “scrutinise”. There is a clear line of differentiation in the current structure between the Executive and Parliament’s ability and role in scrutiny, and it is one that we should protect. It would be wrong for Select Committees to have Executive power, in effect, and such a change would create an Executive power for a Select Committee in an appointment.
Neil Carmichael
I am in huge agreement with my hon. Friend, who is making exactly the point that if a Select Committee is involved in decision making, no matter how slightly, it becomes less inclined or less able to scrutinise ruthlessly the decisions and outcomes. Does he agree?
Brandon Lewis
Indeed. One of the problems with the Bill, as I noted a few moments ago, is that it focuses on one appointment from one Select Committee. What would be more interesting is a debate in the House on the role of Select Committees in the public appointments that they scrutinise.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Is the hon. Gentleman therefore saying that Parliament got it wrong on the Office for Budget Responsibility?
Brandon Lewis
Not at all. I shall come to that in a few moments. That is not the point that I am making. There is a clear difference between a role in making an appointment to the OBR and a role in making an appointment to a position that has Executive powers and makes Executive decisions. If this were a Bill that considered the role of Select Committees, there would be an interesting debate to be had about whether Select Committees should have a power of appointment or veto, but that would apply equally to all Committees and all appointments, particularly where they have an Executive role. That is an important delineation, of which we should be aware.
It would be wrong to give one Select Committee, as important as the Treasury Committee is, a power of Executive appointment over and above that of other Select Committees, which I am sure would take the view that they have equal power and an equally important role in the House, but which would thereby potentially be put in a second category of Select Committee. Creating divisions and different types of Select Committee would impede the function of all Select Committees.
Mr Love
The Public Administration Committee had a debate on Executive agencies and appointments. The Public Accounts Committee has included its Chairman in the decision on the appointment of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Treasury Committee has developed the chairmanship of the Statistics Commission. In other words, piecemeal change is going on. Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that the proposal is part of that piecemeal change, and that we ought to give the Bill a Second Reading not so that we can pass it in its current form, but so that Parliament can have an honourable debate about the arrangements between the Executive and the legislature in relation to major appointments?
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman makes a very strong point. I do not entirely agree because there is a clear difference between the type of appointments we are talking about and the role that those appointees take on and the powers that they have. However, a good argument can be made for the House to consider the role of Select Committees in public appointments, the associated power and at what level it sits. Perhaps he would like to come to business questions one week and make the case to the Leader of the House for time for such a debate, or make a case for it to the Backbench Business Committee.
The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington argued that part of the aim of a private Member’s Bill such as this is to get the Government to listen, to hear a message, to take a view. The Minister will hear the points made in the debate. He will hear various arguments from various Members about the role of a Select Committee, its power or lack of power to appoint or veto an appointment, and will take that into account as part of the Government’s plans for the future. That is quite different from whether the Bill should have a Second Reading, when it is fundamentally flawed by giving priority and special treatment to one Select Committee over and above others. As much as I respect the Treasury Committee and all its members, I, as a member of the Work and Pensions Committee, do not think it fair that the Treasury Committee should be seen in a premier league, above the other Select Committees.
The Treasury Committee has argued for a role in appointing the Governor of the Bank of England by using as a precedent, as the hon. Gentleman did, the establishment of the OBR and the Budget Responsibility and National Audit Act 2011. The provisions of that Act give a statutory role, I agree, to the Committee in the appointment of the chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility. Additionally, they give a statutory role to the Public Accounts Committee when a new Comptroller and Auditor General is appointed. However, that argument ignores a fundamental and crucial difference between the roles undertaken by those organisations and the role of the Governor of the Bank of England.
The Bank of England sets policy. Although the Office for Budget Responsibility is important, it primarily has an analytical or forecasting role, not an Executive ability to set monetary policy. It provides independent information to Government. That information is a powerful tool for Parliament to use in its scrutiny role and it is right, therefore, for Parliament to protect that role from political interference.
The Government’s position on the issue has been sensibly pragmatic. They have encouraged the involvement of the Treasury Committee in the appointment of the Governor. It has been interesting to hear from two speakers the private views of the Chairman of the Treasury Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), in his comment that what he thinks the Treasury Committee is looking for is the ability to have a clear and open influence on the role, which indicates that there is not necessarily a strong view from the Chair—it is a shame that he is not in his place, but he made a comment earlier—about having the power of veto or appointment. That is an important distinction from such an eminent Member of the House, who would be the Chairman who benefited from any change.
The Government made a commitment in the coalition agreement to
“strengthen the powers of Select Committees to scrutinise major public appointments”.
The key word is “scrutinise”. That emphasises a right to examine, challenge, query or inspect closely and thoroughly appointments to major public bodies. My Select Committee has done that as well. However, it rightly makes no mention of a right to appoint or veto. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) said, that would be a substantial constitutional change to the way in which Select Committees work.
It is worth exploring what would happen if there were a right of veto and the Government and the Treasury Committee reached a stalemate in the appointment of a new Governor. If the Government—the Treasury—were unwilling to back down, and the Treasury Committee were determined to uphold its right to veto, given to it by this Bill, that could lead to uncertainty, creating turmoil in the markets, and at the moment we do not need any more of that. We can certainly see what such turmoil means for international relationships as much as internal markets. It could lead to a loss in international confidence in the Bank of England and the United Kingdom, which we benefit from at the moment. The result would be untold economic chaos and damage.
Kwasi Kwarteng
What does my hon. Friend think about the lengthy process for Supreme Court appointments in America, where people very often wait for months before an appointment is made? What might be the repercussions for our financial position in such an instance?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The way in which the American system can create turmoil is the very point I am making. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon said, we in this House know that the Treasury Committee would deal with the issue properly. The problem is the perception outside of such turmoil. We have seen in the press how such matters have been dealt with in the United States, which shows that what matters is what the public and the markets would think of such an impasse, particularly if there is a lengthy process.
Mr Love
The hon. Gentleman uses the term “turmoil” and makes lurid comparisons with the United States. The US Congress endorses literally hundreds of appointments every year. The Treasury Committee has had confirmation hearings, and on only one occasion has it vetoed an appointment. The Committee has no buy-in; they are only confirmation hearings. Is not the so-called turmoil that the hon. Gentleman suggests vastly overstated?
Brandon Lewis
The argument that something has not happened so it will not happen could have been put some years ago about the present financial turmoil in the eurozone. The argument that something will not happen because it has not happened before has unfortunately been proved wrong time and again. As has been said, one sees regularly in the press and hears in the markets in America the argument that a particular appointment has been made purely because it will get through a committee. There is no disrespect to the successful applicant, but it can give the impression that the appointment is a second choice. It is a matter of the most acceptable common denominator rather than the person wanted by the Executive or any other body; it is the person they can get through the door. That in itself detrimentally affects the individual’s credibility and authority to do their job. Such an impasse here, if the Treasury Committee and the Treasury were at loggerheads for any prolonged period in deciding on the appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England, could result in chaos in international markets and our markets.
I appreciate that it is unlikely that an impasse would result in an unfilled post. It is almost unthinkable, but, as we have seen in recent years, too often now the unthinkable can become the reality. I hope that, in reality, the Treasury and the Select Committee would reach a compromise, such as extending the tenure of the incumbent Governor until a successor was confirmed. Although before my time, some hon. Members will have seen how a person’s authority wanes as soon as it is known that they are about to go. Continued uncertainty about the next appointment, with no decision and no sign of an end to the impasse, would damage the Bank of England’s credibility, which would be hugely detrimental to the role, not just of the Governor but of the Bank of England itself, in both our internal and external markets.
The constitutional quagmire would be further exacerbated if the Treasury Committee adopted the procedure proposed by the Institute for Government. After a Select Committee hearing with the proposed candidate, the Committee would deliberate before announcing its verdict. Then it would have the opportunity to call the Chancellor before it to tell him why the nominated candidate was unsuitable, expecting him to justify why it should change its mind and agree with his proposal. Then we would be into further deliberation before the Committee decided that it did not wish to change its mind. Potentially, the appointment would then be referred to the House for resolution. If, after that lengthy process, the original candidate were confirmed, there is no doubt that their credibility and authority would have been fatally undermined by the whole political ping-pong between the Government and Parliament, never mind the trouble that that would cause to the markets during the weeks or months that passed while parliamentary time was made available.
Even if the Treasury and the Select Committee could agree on a compromise candidate quickly—regardless of this morning’s examples, we all know what “quickly” can really mean—the new appointee would be undermined before they had even taken up the post. The media would portray a second-choice candidate as not having the confidence of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Government or the Select Committee, whichever had originally been against the appointment. In those circumstances, what confidence would the wider banking and financial sector have that the new Bank of England Governor would be able to fulfil their role while working closely with the Government?
As I said earlier, the very Select Committee that scrutinises the role of the Bank of England and the Governor might be the Committee that appointed the Governor. For that reason there is a strong argument for allowing the Executive to appoint the Executive-imbued role of the Governor, and for allowing the Select Committee to scrutinise and comment on it, rather than having a Bank of England Governor who is answerable to the Committee for their job in the first place. As was said earlier, we in the House know that the integrity of members of Select Committees is strong enough and powerful enough to deal with that properly, but what matters is not necessarily what we in the House think about the role of the Governor of the Bank of England, but what people outside think, and what the markets think. It is the perception that becomes the reality, and we need the markets to have confidence and faith in the Governor and in his ability and independence, which the House can scrutinise.
Why stop with the Governor the Bank of England? The Bill’s purported aim is to preserve the Governor’s independence, to remove the appointment from political considerations and pressures. As I have said, it would do quite the opposite, but why stop there? Surely if there is a suspicion that the system is sullied by political interference because the appointment is made on the recommendation of the Chancellor, the appointment of the deputy governor or any members of the court of the Bank of England are likewise politically contaminated. Yet we hear little suggestion that their appointment process politically compromises those positions. In fact, these people act as a powerful check and balance within the Bank of England’s internal governance structure, to prevent any Governor of the Bank of England acting in a politically motivated way. At the moment he does not have to be concerned about the views and role of those on the Select Committee who appointed him.
There is also a substantial list of other public appointments made by her Majesty the Queen following recommendation by the Prime Minister or other Ministers. The Bill’s supporters could end up advocating that the relevant Select Committees should have an opportunity to veto or to make those appointments too. As the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) said, with the changes that have already happened there is a drip, drip effect, and we gradually see the evolution of change around such appointments. If the Bill were to be enacted there would be a big jump, and bigger jumps would follow. Perhaps members of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee should have the ability and opportunity to veto or choose the appointment of the chairman, vice-chairman or other members of the BBC Trust. Perhaps members of the Defence Committee should have an opportunity to veto the appointment of the Chief of the Defence Staff. I have no doubt that members of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee would enjoy the power to veto the appointment of the chairman of the Forestry Commission or any of the other 10 forestry commissioners, particularly in the current climate.
Where should we stop? It is a valid question, and one that I think deserves some time in this House. Indeed, the power that Select Committees have to veto appointments might be a good topic for the Backbench Business Committee to put forward for debate. However, I do not think that it is right for a single private Member’s Bill to give that Executive power to a single Select Committee. The Minister is here and has heard the views expressed and no doubt will take those thoughts forward. Should Parliament have the final say on the president of the Valuation Tribunal for England, or on which judges are elevated to the Supreme Court, or even on who is installed as the next Archbishop of Canterbury, a debate that I am sure would be of great interest to Members on both sides of the House?
As odd as some of those examples might be, they are all appointments made by Her Majesty following recommendations from her Ministers. I could list many more examples, but I assure hon. Members that they will not have to listen to that right now. Those are all positions of which the holder has a responsibility for making decisions that affect people’s lives.
Matthew Hancock
Is it not odd that one of the previous Government’s last acts was to give the Prime Minister only one recommendation to Her Majesty on who should be Archbishop of Canterbury, which effectively took away from the Government and from Parliament a real choice over who would take that role and, therefore, moved appointments away from the proposal before us today, rather than towards it?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, and one that counters the argument made a few moments ago on the continual drip, drip in that direction. He highlights the fact that that has not been happening. There have been some changes in some areas, but in others things have moved in a different way. It is also interesting that that decision was made potentially by the same Member who decided not long ago to ignore the Treasury Committee’s comments on the appointment of a member of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee.
We must be clear that in all the positions I have mentioned the holder has responsibility for making decisions that affect people’s lives. As has been commented on a few times now, there is a clear and precise line between those positions and the appointments in which some Select Committees have been involved—the Public Accounts Committee and the Treasury Committee, with the Office for Budget Responsibility and the Comptroller and Auditor General—because those Committees have a different type of role. They have a scrutiny role and a statistics role, but they do not have Executive powers to make decisions affecting people’s lives. That is what we in this House are elected to do through legislation and the appointments that flow from Ministers.
Mr Love
The OBR is responsible for bringing forward an economic forecast on the basis of which the Government must set out their public expenditure plans. That makes it an incredibly important body that can have significant influence on the direction of the Government’s economic policy.
Brandon Lewis
It is a joy to be able to agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman, who makes a good point. He highlights and confirms the argument I am making. The OBR makes forecasts, but it does not have Executive power to set monetary policy. As he has just pointed out, it is the Government, following those forecasts, who make Executive decisions on how to move forward. Indeed, the Governor of the Bank of England might use Executive powers to decide the Bank’s monetary policy. There is a difference between the role of making forecasts and scrutinising and the Executive power that the Government hold.
Brandon Lewis
I thank the hon. Gentleman for further enhancing my point about where Executive power actually sits, in contrast to the scrutiny and forecasting role, as important as it is, which is very different from the Executive power wielded by the Government and some of the Executive bodies we are talking about.
If we are to extend the right to veto the appointment of one public official to any given Select Committee, the natural extension is to do so for other public appointments. In doing so, we would turn our Select Committee system and this House into a new form of Executive recruitment agency. Our Select Committees were established to scrutinise, investigate, consider, report and recommend. Principally, our Select Committee system is there to hold the Executive and other public officials and bodies to account. It was not created to veto the Executive, and it was not envisaged that the Committees would be used as quasi-recruitment advisers.
We should be striving to make the Bank of England more accountable to Parliament—I have no disagreement with that—but we should be looking to do so without shackling its sovereignty with more direct control over certain aspects by Parliament. Current concerns from constituents about the Bank of England do not focus on how the Governor is appointed. I certainly have not had in my postbag any letters, let alone a deluge of letters, on that.
Kwasi Kwarteng
I want to hear my hon. Friend’s view on my suspicion that constituents simply want the Bank of England to do its job and do not want the process to be politicised any more than it needs to be. A move towards a Treasury Committee veto would make it more political and less appealing to the very constituents to whom he has referred.
Brandon Lewis
I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend. I attended a business forum meeting only 10 days ago and talked with businesses about the financial situation in our country. They were very optimistic and upbeat, but they were talking about what more we can do to make it easier for them to grow their businesses and create more jobs. Residents want to know what the Government are doing to allow more jobs to be created and to match the skills with the jobs that are available. They are not talking to me about how we choose the Governor of the Bank of England. They see a very clear difference—this relates to the interventions I have been enjoying from the hon. Member for Edmonton—between the Executive powers and the scrutiny powers and see that it is the Government’s job to set policy that will allow our economy to grow and, therefore, do not necessarily see, understand or have an interest in how the Governor of the Bank of England is appointed. They want to see that job being done properly and the Government setting out the economic policy correctly.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and not one that I had planned to make, so I hope that he will expand on it later.
In addition to the risk of having a Governor who is perceived to be a second choice or a lowest acceptable common denominator, which I hope I have outlined graphically, there is also the risk that that politicisation itself is part of the problem. In recent weeks many Members have made the point that we should focus our time and effort less on the process, which our constituents are not interested in, and more on the result and how we deliver for them and for our country. Suddenly giving a Select Committee the power to veto an appointment would detract from its ability, power and credibility to scrutinise what the Executive are doing to improve our country, because it would actually be focusing on being part of the Executive.
As I have said, the concern that our constituents might have about the Bank of England’s role in the banking and financial sectors, which is particularly prominent at the moment, is that its decisions are transparent. Any concerns they have about the Bank’s enhanced role under the Financial Services Bill focus on whether those functions are open to proper public scrutiny through Parliament. The inalienable political independence of the Bank of England is something that we, as Member of the House of Commons, should cherish, defend and uphold, which I think we do. When the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), published his insider’s account of the financial crisis that beset this country in 2008, I was alarmed at his suggestion that he considered overruling decisions made by the Governor of the Bank of England. He so seriously considered that course of action that he sought advice from Treasury officials to ascertain whether it was within his competences to do so as Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he had done so, the political uproar would have been enormous. The media and other commentators would and, no doubt rightly, could have criticised it as a blatant attempt at political interference, and, as Members will know, we had a debate along those lines just yesterday.
I urge Members to create no similar furore through this Bill, which blatantly attempts to assert direct parliamentary control over the appointment of the politically independent Governor of the Bank of England. Such unnecessary interference risks turning the appointment into a political football between the Executive and the legislature, which our financial markets would not tolerate or consider a sensible way forward. Indeed, they would, I believe, go into complete turmoil again, and our constituents would not thank us for being the ones who put them in that potential position.
The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington said earlier—I made a note—that the Select Committee would seek consensus on the appointment, but our current system allows for that. The threat of a veto or the power to appoint moves things in a different direction, to an Executive role, and the appointment would therefore become an Executive one. It would be a mistake for the House to go down that route. Select Committees rightly have the power to scrutinise, but we must be clear about where the line is between the ability to scrutinise and comment as a critical friend and, from time to time, a non-friend, and the ability to adopt a decision-making power in an Executive role. That is something which rightly lies with the Executive—the Government—themselves, and I therefore oppose the Bill.
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to know that I must challenge that comment. The core point I was making throughout my speech, from start to finish, was that there is an important distinction between what the Executive do and their power, and that we should not give a Select Committee an Executive power to make Executive recruitment decisions.
Mark Durkan
The hon. Gentleman made a long contribution, and I am sure that that top-up will add value to it.
At the start of this debate and in a number of interventions, reference was made to yesterday’s motions and debate, and a challenge was laid down: “How could anybody support this Bill if they didn’t vote for the parliamentary inquiry yesterday?”. The argument was that the Bill seeks to give an enhanced role to the Treasury Committee and that we cannot support it if we did not support yesterday’s motion for a parliamentary inquiry.
I did not support the vote for the parliamentary inquiry yesterday; my name was on the other motion, precisely because I really value the role of the Treasury Committee and the service it provides to the House. People have talked about the dangers to the Committee if its gets the powers in the Bill, and that it will fall apart and start to divide along party political lines, but there is more danger to the Treasury Committee from the decision that the House took yesterday, because its Chairman will find himself committed to a significant inquiry, which we are told will be time-intensive and extensive.
The Chairman said yesterday that he wanted the membership of the inquiry Committee to be heavily drawn from the Treasury Committee, so a select number of the Select Committee will also be absorbed by the inquiry throughout the autumn when what the Treasury Committee needs to do is concentrate on many other things, not least following up what emerges from the Wheatley review, which the Chancellor has announced. That review will recommend amendments to the Financial Services Bill, so the Government have recognised that in the light of what has happened with Barclays and the whole LIBOR issue, significant amendments to that Bill will need to be considered.
In essence, the Bill that my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has tabled today is a prompt, which canvasses for a fairly modest amendment to the Financial Services Bill—a modest amendment that might have its case reinforced by whatever recommendations emerge from the Wheatley review and the amendments we make to that Bill. As hon. Members on both sides have said, it already creates significant added powers, responsibilities and potential difficulties for the Governor of the Bank of England, the Bank and the whole hinterland of authorities and agencies around it.
Parliament has devolved more responsibility to the Bank and the Governor, and the appointment of the Governor will remain an appointment of government, although, as the Minister in the Financial Services Bill Committee, when correcting me and others, insisted on saying, “It is not appointment by the Government or the Treasury, but by the Crown.” I understand the distinction; I do not believe the fiction; and it is quite clear from his hon. Friends’ contributions today that they do not, either. They are ruthlessly defending the appointment as an Executive—ministerial—appointment.
Mark Durkan
The hon. Gentleman tries to take up a point that the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) made earlier, when he talked about the Bill representing “a major constitutional departure”, a phrase that he used, I think, three times. But he ended up criticising the Bill for not going far enough or ranging wide enough. He wanted a Bill to give all Select Committees responsibilities and powers of appointment in relation to all sorts of other things. Hon. Members can have it both ways in their own contributions, but they are not going to have it both ways in mine.
Brandon Lewis
The hon. Gentleman is being generous with his time, but he misunderstands the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), and certainly I, was making. We do not necessarily think that a Bill that changes the whole structure of Select Committees and how they work is the right thing to do or that we would vote for it; we just think that it would make more sense, if people feel that way, than a Bill that focuses on one Committee and on one particular power.
Mark Durkan
That is not what the hon. Member for Wimbledon said and certainly not what I heard. We seem to be hearing a lot of interventions from Government Members interpreting what each other said. Several Members have mentioned what the Treasury Committee Chair, the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), is saying in private, and that it is different from what members of the Committee have said and different from the fact that the hon. Gentleman’s name is on the Bill.
Joseph Johnson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his excellent intervention, but I would make an important distinction between being consulted and having the right of decision. That is a fundamental distinction and, on balance, arrangements that tilt towards giving the Select Committee system powers of decision over public appointments are going too far. The role of Select Committees might be better restricted to consultation than decision.
Brandon Lewis
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is another distinction, particularly for the example of local authorities? I was a local authority leader when we appointed a chief executive, and there are two implications. First, although the chief executive is approved by the council, they are always clearly the choice of the leader and, more to the point, they are the chief executive of the body appointing them. They do not become the governor of a body that is, in theory, completely independent, as would be the case with the Select Committee.
Joseph Johnson
I thank my hon. Friend for that point. I remind the House of what I was permitted to relay about the private views of the Chairman of the Treasury Committee. His private view—he was not speaking in his capacity as Chairman of the Committee—
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
I rise to speak in this important debate to challenge some of the views that have been put forward, but also to set out the deep constitutional changes that are built into the Bill. It is appropriate that the Bill is given full scrutiny in the House, and those who have said otherwise are, with the greatest respect, slightly missing the point about the Bill’s centrality to our constitutional settlement. That is quite a strong thing to say, but I will go into it, and also discuss some of the international and historical examples that the Bill brings to light.
Dr Johnson, in his celebrated dictionary of the English language—a man almost as wise as my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson)—defines a Tory as one who adheres to the ancient constitution of the state. While the Tory party is putting that to the test more broadly, I stand as a proud defender of our ancient constitution, even while it needs upgrading from time to time. It is in that role that I speak against the Bill today.
The proponents of the Bill, in particular the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), underestimate its profound implications and how it would alter the foundations on which the Westminster system is built. For it is the job of the Executive to provide strong and decisive government, and it is the task of the legislature to hold that Executive to account. We have heard many speeches that make that distinction. It is a distinction that has survived revolution, war and financial crises, and it even broadly survived 13 years of new Labour Government. It has been adopted and revered by some of the greatest and most successful democracies in the world, such as Australia, New Zealand and Canada, all countries with records of strong central bank performance and all countries in which the governor of the central bank is appointed by the Executive without the legislature having a veto.
Brandon Lewis
Does my hon. Friend agree that the structural relationship between our Executive and legislature, the line we have talked about quite a bit today, and the way the Bank of England works and its autonomy are exactly why countries around the world have mirrored our structure so that they can deliver for their residents?
Matthew Hancock
Indeed. The English-speaking world and countries more widely have been wise to mirror that structure because it leads to strong Executive Governments who can deliver for the people in good times and bad. The Bill would have us rend asunder the gossamer fabric of the British constitution. I note that the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who is no longer in his place, supported the Bill, but described it as a significant constitutional departure. However, he also said that it was not a major constitutional departure. I will not go into an analysis of the difference between a significant departure and a major one, but I think that the Bill would wrest a key instrument of Executive power—the power of appointment—away from Her Majesty’s Government and confer it instead on a single Committee of this House.
Matthew Hancock
I do not think that the principles in the Bill have been well thought through. That is why I started by arguing that the constitutional implications of the Bill are profound and underestimated by its proponents. Many of the questions that are being raised in interventions on me are ones that I had not even thought of while I was wondering what view to take on the Bill.
Brandon Lewis
To add to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), does my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) agree with the point that I made in my speech, which was that the complication and complexity in this debate highlight the turmoil that this process would create for the markets, even if it lasted for only 24 hours? The damage to the markets could be enormous. My hon. Friend has great experience of this world. What does he estimate would be the cost to our economy of even a 24-hour delay, let alone a delay of several weeks, because of this kind of back-and-forth?
Matthew Hancock
If there was parliamentary deadlock and votes were needed to change the Standing Orders of the House in order to get a Governor of the Bank of England, the cost would depend on the economic circumstances. In good and calm economic circumstances, there would undoubtedly be a cost because of the increased uncertainty in the markets. For example, one might expect the yield on Government bonds to rise and for uncertainty over the future of the banking system to grow, which might have an impact on the LIBOR market. I do not want to touch too much on the LIBOR market. In times of financial stress, such as those that we have been living with for five years with few signs of abatement, the impact of the uncertainty could be very serious indeed.
Brandon Lewis
Does my hon. Friend think that an unintended consequence of the proposal might be that the belief that such complications could happen would put off some of the best potential candidates for Governor of the Bank of England from putting themselves into the process in the first place?
Matthew Hancock
I have no doubt that the appointment of a Governor of the Bank of England should be above politics. We should appoint somebody for their economic, financial and policy-making experience. They should be somebody of weight from that world. The position has rarely been filled by somebody from the world of politics, and for good reason. As well as having to engage in the political world of the country, the Governor has great duties in putting the economic and financial interests of the nation to the fore. I would therefore be concerned if a potential Governor chose not to put their name forward because they did want to get involved in the quagmire of party politics during their appointment. The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) makes is an important one, and it anticipates a point that I have on page 36 of my speech. Since I am only on page 4, perhaps I should make some progress.
I will not dwell on the argument that the constitutional precedent would be much wider than simply the implications for the Treasury Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth made the point that the Chief of the Defence Staff might have to be confirmed by the Defence Committee, so I shall cross that line out of my speech. A potential head of MI6 might have to be scrutinised by and avoid a potential veto from the Intelligence and Security Committee before being given the job. There are more extreme and absurd examples showing that we should not take this lightly and push a new principle through the House on a Friday afternoon.
My point about Parliament and our system of government is only one consideration, but it is the reason why the principle of the Bill deserves serious and profound reflection. Its ramifications could outlive the Government of the day and last many Sessions of Parliament, because once such changes are made they tend to take hold. The appointment of the judiciary is a long-standing and slowly evolving matter, and very few Members would support the idea that the Justice Committee should have a veto over the appointment of High Court judges, but that is analogous to the proposition in the Bill.
I will go through some of the lessons from history and some of the international lessons that are pertinent to the Bill. Central banks are unique financial institutions and have a delicate balancing act to perform. As has been pointed out, the Bank of England was set up in 1694 to finance the nine years war against France. We won that war largely because Britain had the ability to finance a standing Army effectively, through the Bank of England. Instead of borrowing directly from the market, Britain established the Bank of England to issue debt on behalf of the Government. From then on, the strength of the institution was watched and repeated in countries around the world. In 1844, the United Kingdom broke new ground by issuing to the Bank of England a monopoly on the supply of money, so that competing banks could no longer issue banknotes of their own.
Matthew Hancock
In that example, there was one person who understood the implications of returning to the gold standard and whose views were more consistent with the Labour Government’s. John Maynard Keynes argued vociferously for the strategy that many in the Government wanted to pursue but which he could not persuade the rest of the Bank to pursue, which was that they had to stimulate the economy in times of economic weakness and that there would not be an automatic return to growth. That is an argument with which I strongly agree. It is important to ensure an effective stimulus when the economy is weak. The most effective such stimulus today is monetary policy.
That brings us directly to the strategy now. The Bank and the Government broadly agree on the economic strategy of tight and responsible fiscal policy and loose monetary policy in order to deliver economic growth that is sustainable and not based simply on building up more debt. However, immediately before the 2010 general election, when I entered the House, it appeared that the Bank did not agree with the then Government’s strategy. This was destabilising. I used the example from 1716 to show that there is a long history of problems when there is disagreement on strategy, but it is by no means a problem that went away after 1716—it was with us right up until 2010, although fortunately it is not the case right now.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend might have heard an Opposition Member say earlier that this kind of thing will not happen because it has not happened before. Does he agree that the examples he has just given prove that just because something has not gone wrong for a long time, it does not mean that it will not cause a problem in the future?
Matthew Hancock
I agree strongly. We need to be vigilant and—dare I say it—humble about how little we know about the future, instead of making grand assertions that because something has not been a problem in the past, it will not be a problem in the future.
Matthew Hancock
Hear, hear, I say. I think that all sorts of communication are very useful in this modern age. I respect my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell) a great deal—and the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith)—but I have a very simple response. As I said at the start of my speech, I think that this proposal would mark a significant constitutional departure. It is about the distinction between the legislature and the Executive and about blurring that distinction. The idea that we should pass the Bill after only five hours of debate on a Friday lunchtime, compared with the 10 days of debate in Committee of the whole House proposed by the Government on House of Lords reform, which merely changes the architecture within that legislative branch, is absurd. If we want to make a change of such importance, we should be able to debate it fully and frankly. Going through some of the historical and international comparisons is vital to a significant change.
Brandon Lewis
Is it not important to consider not only whether we should allow a Select Committee to have the power of appointment or dismissal of the Governor, but the impact that that has on all Select Committees, and the difference between their scrutiny role and their Executive role, which is a big constitutional change in the way that the House works?
Matthew Hancock
My hon. Friend makes the point well so I will not dwell on it. No doubt all Members who have a serious interest in the impact of the Bill are in the House. Those who do not want to come to the House to discuss it are perfectly at liberty not to do so; that demonstrates the amount of interest they have in the consideration of the matters before the House.
Given the scale of the change proposed in the Bill, it is vital that we look at what has happened in the rest of the world. I hope hon. Members will indulge me a moment as I do that. About one tenth of major countries involve their legislatures in the appointment of central bank governors. The United States has been mentioned. Japan, Croatia, Latvia, Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, Macedonia, Lithuania and the Ukraine are also examples of countries where the decision and the veto power are vested in the legislature. Nine out of 10 countries have broadly the set-up that we have. Of that list of countries, only two have financial systems of the same size and sophistication as the UK. They are the USA and Japan. The US system, which is comparable to the proposition in the Bill, has already been discussed.
When I looked a little more closely at the US system, I was surprised to find that in the entire history of the Federal Reserve since it was founded in 1913, not a single presidential nominee for the chairman of the board of the Federal Reserve has ever been rejected by the Senate. We heard the argument earlier from the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), a member of the Treasury Committee, that we should not worry, as the veto will never be used. It that is an argument for a change of constitutional significance, I do not know of a weaker one. The argument that we should change something of great importance because it is never used would not find much support.
The US Senate’s record in vetting all presidential nominations shows little evidence that elected representatives are any better than the Executive at rooting out views on economic policy. One of the people who was most frequently re-vetted and given a warm send-off by the Senate was Alan Greenspan, who served as chairman of the Fed from 1987 to 2006. He was reconfirmed five times, yet his final tenure at the Fed resulted in some of the most disastrous economic policy decisions in central banking history. He got it wrong on derivatives when he argued in 2005 that
“sophisticated approaches to measuring and managing risk are key factors underpinning the greater resilience of our largest financial institutions”.
He was wrong in thinking that the price that investors are prepared to pay is the only valid valuation of an asset. He was dogmatically opposed to action against financial bubbles, saying:
“Bubbles generally are perceptible only after the fact.”
He went on to admit that he got these things wrong when he told a congressional hearing in 2008, after the bubble had burst,
“I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organizations, specifically banks . . . were such that they were . . . capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms . . . I have found a flaw. . . I have been very distressed by that fact”.
The Senate failed in its job of vetoing people who would make great and grave economic policy mistakes. That stands as a great question that the Bill’s proponents need to answer. Why would the Treasury Committee be better than the Senate at rooting out people whose economic policy propositions are mistaken? I also use the other counter-factual, which is that the Senate has vetoed people who have a wide reputation for being excellent in their field. For instance, last year the Senate vetoed Patrick Diamond—who I am assured is no relation—a Nobel prize winner in economics. He was vetoed by the Republican Senators in retaliation for the Democrats refusing to reappoint a Bush nominee in 2008. Such political tit for tat, which led to a Nobel prize-winning economist not being allowed on to the Federal Reserve board, is a strong argument for rejecting the Bill.
Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)
I was particularly interested to hear the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), who added an international and historical dimension to the debate, which I think should be broadly appreciated. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), my near neighbour, on bringing the debate to the House. I think that his measure would contribute in some way to scrutiny, but I am afraid that the Bill raises important constitutional considerations and, on those grounds, I am reluctant to support its Second Reading.
Another feature of the debate has been the frequent comments, often from a sedentary position, about the length of the speeches. I have been a Member for two years and know that the constant refrain is that proceedings are guillotined, debates are not fully developed, ideas are not fully expressed and that there is far too little consideration or earnest debate on important matters on the Floor of the House. Today, by contrast, we have had a very full debate, yet some Members are complaining about that. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot complain about the truncated nature of many of our debates and then complain about the full and thoughtful speeches that have been made today. Those are inconsistent principles.
Brandon Lewis
Does my hon. Friend agree that it seems particularly odd to hear those comments from some Members, as we have had to sit in the Chamber at 1 o’clock, 2 o’clock and even 3 o’clock in the morning listening to long speeches from Opposition Members?
Brandon Lewis
The points that Opposition Members have made go to the heart of the problem with this Bill, because it would be stage one of—to quote what an hon. Member said earlier—a drip-feed effect that changed the very way in which Select Committees worked by changing their power from one of scrutiny to one that is linked to the Executive.
Kwasi Kwarteng
Absolutely. If the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) wants to debate that point, he should include it in his own private Member’s Bill, if he is fortunate enough to introduce one. He should introduce a Bill, and then we might have a lengthy debate.
The specific proposal before us is not appropriate, however, and I shall say why. The historical examples, which have been too little regarded, are very important. We have to look at the development of Parliament, to understand its powers and to understand the evolution of the Bank of England and its unique role in the historical and current governance of political economy. We have to understand a range of things.
As my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk said, we have to look also at international examples from recent history and throughout the world, and it is quite wrong for Opposition Members to try to curtail or to truncate debate. As I said at the beginning of my speech, I do not think it wrong for the House of Commons to debate things fully, and, on that basis, I turn to what Parliament does and what we are trying to do.
We scrutinise the Executive. Our job is not to make Executive appointments, to opine upon or to veto people appointed by the Crown; it is simply to scrutinise the Executive. The appointment of a Bank of England Governor is a matter for the Executive, and has been ever since the Bank’s nationalisation in 1946. One of the more interesting speeches today related to the origins of the Bank, because we have to understand where it has come from, and I repudiate any attempt to curtail Members’ right of speech when they are describing the history of the Bank. Everything is contingent: one has to understand the history of institutions to understand better how we can develop them.
The Bank of England was for almost 270 years an independent institution. It was a private bank, and its governor would spend two years in the role on a rotating basis. That broke down after the first world war, in 1920, when Montagu Norman was appointed Governor of the Bank of England. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington suggested that the new Governor—this superman or superwoman—would have such enormous powers and influence that no Governor has ever equalled them. That is completely unhistorical and false. Montagu Norman was Governor of the Bank from 1920 to 1944. He was Governor in 1925 when we went back on the gold standard and in 1931 when we came off the gold standard. He was Governor in 1939, just before the second world war, when exchange controls were imposed. He only left, dragged kicking and screaming from his post, after 24 years. He was a man of enormous power and influence, and it is very unlikely that any subsequent Governor will exercise the same kind of power. The simple reason is that under the current proposals we suggest that a Governor should have a single term of eight years, so there is no question of a man or woman being Governor for the same length of time as Montagu Norman or, similarly, Kim Cobbold, who was Governor for 12 years.
Members who are trying to make the case for supervision are utterly exaggerating the nature of this man or woman’s power once he or she is appointed to this important role. That is obviously due to their desire to exaggerate the power of the Governor to try to justify the appropriation of power on the part of the Treasury Committee. Under the Bill, that Committee, which is made up of 13 Members of this House, would have inordinate powers unequalled by that of any other Select Committee. That would distort the relationship of the Treasury Committee to this House and give it a preponderant influence in relation not only to scrutiny but to the Executive branch through its power of veto.
The proposal imports an alien structure from the United States, and that frustrates and disappoints me. The American constitution is a very different beast with a very different history from ours. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), who is no longer in his place, pointed out, it has a strict division of powers. In America, no members of the Executive sit in the legislature. It is therefore right and proper that the legislature, as embodied in Congress, should have the power of scrutiny over an Executive who have no role in the legislature.
Finance Bill
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Catherine McKinnell
I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), who wanted to intervene earlier.
Catherine McKinnell
I thank my hon. Friend for that rational and considered intervention and appreciate that the industry is willing to accept the change, as it is much easier to bear than the original suggestion of 20%, but that is the point I seek to make. The Minister in his opening remarks confirmed that no assessment has been made of the impact of the 5% increase on the industry, and that is gravely concerning, because, as the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) suggested, the industry needs certainty, security and stability to create the jobs that my hon. Friend is so concerned about.
The fact that the proposal is being put in place without a proper assessment of what is a lesser impact but still one of 5% is deeply concerning, because the last thing the industry needs is for the measure to be reviewed 12 months down the line, be seen to have had a detrimental impact, and for it to have to go through the whole process all over again.
Brandon Lewis
I thank the hon. Lady for her generosity in giving way. In Great Yarmouth, I represent a £500-million-a-year tourism industry, with about 50% of our bed space in static caravans. Our industry was concerned, but its message to me is that it thinks the 5% rate is not only fair, but better than it had hoped for.
The industry understands the arguments that everyone has to do their bit and that there has been an anomaly for a long time, and feels that the measure is manageable, will not have an impact on its business and is fair. We are very pleased, in fact, that we finally have a Government who say that they will consult and listen, do so and come back with exactly what the industry wants.
Catherine McKinnell
The only point I can make is that the industry suffered the serious blow of having a 20% tax announced. That has been reduced to 5%, which it will obviously welcome, but we propose to remove the VAT changes altogether, because at this particular time the last thing that any industry needs, but particularly the holiday, static caravan and manufacturing industries, is a VAT hike. We need to invest in jobs and growth to get the economy moving, to get out of the double-dip recession that we are in and to get back into growth.
Petrol and Diesel
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Robert Halfon
I promised my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth that I would allow him to intervene.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way so generously, in an excellent debate. Rural areas such as Norfolk are affected, but does he agree that it is not just about rural areas? Places that focus heavily on the tourism industry, such as Great Yarmouth and other coastal towns, are adversely affected if fewer people are able to afford to travel there, which has a knock-on effect on our economy.
Robert Halfon
My hon. Friend is exactly right, and that is why I am proposing some of these things today.
Jobs and Growth
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
While the shadow Chancellor is busy doing down the British economy, will he not equally recognise the fact that in areas like Great Yarmouth, which Labour left as one of the most deprived in the country, we are seeing hundreds of millions of pounds of investment from and in local companies, put in by organisations and countries like Japan, so that the jobs are growing in the enterprise zones?
Ed Balls
In the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, youth long-term unemployment is rising, long-term unemployment generally is rising, families’ taxes are rising and only the top-rate taxpayers are seeing a tax cut. Investment was revised down last year and the year before that, and our economy is in recession because of the policies that the hon. Gentleman continues to support. I think he owes his constituents an apology.
What should we make of setting our economy on a brighter economic course and the observation that “We are all in this together.” Even on his claim that he would “deal with our debts”, the Chancellor is failing that test, too. No growth since the spending review and rising long-term unemployment mean that he is now borrowing £150 billion more than he planned. This is more borrowing than in the plans he inherited, and his pledge to balance the books by 2015 is in tatters. At the end of this Parliament, our national debt will not be lower than the level he inherited, but higher than the level he inherited.
Static Caravans (VAT)
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
It is a pleasure to be on my feet again in the Chamber with an opportunity to talk about an issue that is so important to the people of east Yorkshire and coastal and rural communities around the land.
East Yorkshire is at the heart of the caravan industry. I have a major manufacturer, ABI, in the centre of Beverley, suppliers to the manufacturers scattered around my constituency and parks dotted down the Holderness coast. For us, static holiday homes are a big deal. The presence of so many Members, despite the fact that it is a Thursday evening, when Members are normally thinking of moving back to their constituencies, demonstrates the depth and breadth of concern about this issue, not least among Government Members.
Mr Stuart
Before I give way to my hon. Friend, I should point out that I shall be the only person making a speech before the Minister responds, but because there has been so much interest in the debate, I shall give way to as many hon. Friends on both sides of the Chamber as I possibly can as we work together to persuade the Treasury to think again.
Brandon Lewis
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for outlining how generous he intends to be. He mentioned the depth and breadth of concern about this issue. In Great Yarmouth, the tourism industry is worth about £500 million, and an estimated 50% of our bed space is in static caravans. Over the years, they have come to have more in common with park homes than with mobile caravans. Does my hon. Friend agree that that might be a better way for them to be assessed?
Mr Stuart
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I shall address that point in my speech.
I ran a street surgery in Withernsea, a coastal town in my constituency, on Saturday. As I stood talking to people and handing out leaflets, perhaps as many as three out of 10 people said to me, “I’m not from round here, mate.” They were not staying in bed and breakfasts or hotels, because we have hardly any in the area; they were staying in static caravans. Two or three out of every 10 people going into Aldi, or into the bakery down the road, or spending money in the pubs were staying in static caravans. In addition to those directly employed in the manufacture of the caravans and in addition to the parks, however important they all are, the importance of visitors to the rural economy is immense. That is why there has been such a groundswell of feeling that this issue should be reconsidered.