Bank of England (Appointment of Governor) Bill

Stephen Hammond Excerpts

Friday 6th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[John McDonnell]

If there was a way of moving forward by that process, I would use it, but the problem is that we have now debated this matter in the Financial Services Bill, both in this House and the other place, and the Government have refused to accept the Treasury Committee’s recommendation. I hope that once I have sent this message today, the Government will shift their position and use whatever device is possible—either an amendment to the Financial Services Bill, the route the hon. Gentleman suggests, other routes that the Chair of the Treasury Committee has suggested exploring or the acceptance of this Bill.

At the time of the Treasury Committee’s recommendation and the debates on the amendments here and in the other place, the Government set their face against the proposal. I shall deal with the five basic objections and arguments that Treasury Ministers have put forward. First, there is the argument made by the Chancellor to the Committee that the Governor must be independent. He said:

“I think it is proper that the Government of the day chooses the Bank Governor, is held accountable for that choice, but also that the Governor is given some protection, some independence, so it is quite difficult, to put it mildly, or extremely difficult, to get rid of them.”

Ironically, the Committee fully agreed that the Governor should be independent and that this independence should be protected, but concluded that the best way of securing that independence was to ensure that the appointment was not solely in the hands of the Executive or one single politician. It further concluded that dismissal should also be determined more widely. Logically, then, the Governor is more likely to be seen as a creature of the Executive if he or she is solely appointed by the Executive. Making appointments and dismissals subject to the Committee’s approval must logically increase a post’s independence from Government and free the appointee from any charge of being a political appointee.

The second issue, which the Minister raised, was potential politicisation.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is making the point that the Bill would make the Governor more independent of the Executive. However, one of the things that I am sure several of my hon. Friends will be exploring in their speeches is that it may, in fact, interfere with his independence from the Treasury Committee.

[John McDonnell]

It is a matter of striking a balance and, at the moment, the Governor’s independence is undermined by association with appointment by one Minister and the Executive. My Bill would spread the burden of accountability and responsibility for the appointment.

On the issue of politicisation, the argument was that the Committee veto would politicise the post of the Governor. However, spreading the decision, to include all parties in determining the appointment, would avoid the charge that the person had been appointed by one party or one coalition grouping and was therefore a party political appointee. The charge of politicisation also neglects to acknowledge that our Select Committees have, over decades, developed a good culture of cross-party working. Where there have been disputes over a ministerial appointment in the past, they have not been on political lines. There have been only two rejections of a Minister’s recommendation, and they were cross-party rejections. Having to secure the approval of the Treasury Committee would override any charge of a single-party or party political fix.

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[Stephen Hammond]

(Wimbledon) (Con): I commend the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for the way he has introduced his Bill. He has made some thought-provoking remarks, but I would gently say to him that I am sure that Members on both sides of the House have been asked whether they would like to make a contribution today. I have cancelled a lot of things in my constituency to be here today, and I am now being called puerile and unprincipled, yet had I been speaking from the Opposition Benches or supporting his Bill from the Government Benches, I would now be principled and upstanding. Let me gently say to him that that is not entirely fair.

[John McDonnell]

The hon. Gentleman has never engaged in filibustering that I have been aware of, but he knows that last year it occurred on several occasions, and was publicly and roundly condemned for bringing the House into disrepute.

[Stephen Hammond]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

The Bill is supported by large numbers of Members from both sides of the House, including many right hon. and hon. Friends whose judgment and intellect I respect and admire. However, let me start by setting out the four points on which there are internal contradictions in the hon. Gentleman’s argument or where there are reasons to oppose the Bill. First, the role is unique, and its extension increases that uniqueness. Secondly, the Government are already putting safeguards in place through the Financial Services Bill. Thirdly, despite what the hon. Gentleman has argued, a lot of people would accept that what he proposes is a fairly major constitutional change. Moreover, an underlying point he made is that this Bill somehow fits with the principle “for the people, by the people” so that anything other than that would be unacceptable.

I recently participated in a transport debate and gave what I thought was a fairly good detailed speech; indeed, one or two people were kind enough to say it was useful. I was pleased to note that my hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) who was the duty Whip at the time, said something like, “That was one of the dullest speeches I have ever heard; more time limits, please”! I hope the Whips will find my speech today to be equally dull; perhaps there is a case for time limits in debates such as this.

It might bring a little colour to the debate as well as a sense of purpose if we look at one or two of the Governors of the Bank of England over the last century who have been extremely powerful figures on the economy and powerful figures in respect of their independence from Government. We could reflect on how their appointments were made. Montagu Norman, for example, the Governor of the Bank of England from 1920 to 1944 was described by many as more of a bohemian artist than a banker. He liked to wear Sherlock Holmes-type clothing, was prone to nervous breakdown, regarded politicians as asses and openly said so. I just wonder what the Treasury Select Committee might have said to him when he was appointed.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

When Montagu Norman was Governor of the Bank of England it was a private company, so I do not think it would have been right, prior to nationalisation, for a Select Committee to have had any involvement in the appointment.

[Stephen Hammond]

Indeed. We could have a long discourse about the fact that Montagu Norman was the initiator of sound monetary policy, but in view of the strictures set out by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, I shall not go down that course today.

It might be worth referring to two more modern Governors. Lord Kingsdown, who was Robin Leigh-Pemberton at the time he was Governor, was in some ways a classic figure. He had been a lawyer for many years and had no banking experience. He was appointed chairman of Nat West bank and was then invited to become Governor of the Bank of England. I am sure we could envisage the Treasury Committee saying, “But you are a lawyer, and we want a banker or someone with financial services experience”. The current Governor’s predecessor, Baron George, went from Cambridge to the Bank of England and never left it. Again, can we not hear the Treasury Committee saying, “But you are an insider in the Bank of England. You have no experience anywhere else. How on earth”—

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

So this is a filibuster.

[Stephen Hammond]

Let me finish the point. The Treasury Committee might have said, “How on earth can you as an insider bring insight into the rest of the system?”

[Mike Freer]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point about the Governor being likely to come from the world of banking. Given the close integration of all our major UK banks and the Treasury, how could we possibly find an independent banker?

[Stephen Hammond]

In this case, it would be for the judgment of the Treasury Committee or the Government. Someone with some financial experience might well be helpful in the current world.

This is not a filibuster, because this is exactly the point at which I am going to leave the history of the Governors of the Bank of England, merely making the point that the Treasury Committee might have rejected some of the candidates who have been appointed, even though they have been among the most excellent Governors of the Bank of England.

[Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)]

Under the current system, with a Select Committee able to provide a view, if not exercise a veto, is it not the case that any concerns could be made very public and very clear to the Government? That can already happen in the present system.

[Stephen Hammond]

I can only concur.

The Financial Services Bill, now in the other place, is designed to redress the inadequacies of the current regulatory regime. As the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington noted, the new proposals view the Bank of England as absolutely at the heart of the regulatory system. It will now be charged, which it was not previously, with the protection and enhancement of the UK’s financial system. I do not need to rehearse in detail the fact that the Bank of England is therefore charged with looking at the working of the Financial Policy Committee and, underneath it, the Prudential Regulatory Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority.

[Mr Hoban]

To clarify, let me point out that the Financial Conduct Authority is not part of the Bank of England; it is an independent body. Failure to understand that is a mistake that the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) regularly made in Committee, and I would not want my hon. Friend to make the same mistake.

[Stephen Hammond]

The Minister is technically correct, but I think he would agree that there is a line, dotted or otherwise, between what the Financial Policy Committee and the Financial Conduct Authority would do and their respective impacts.

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is correct, but I would not want to say that that makes the Financial Conduct Authority a part of the Bank of England. It will have an independent board. Martin Wheatley, the chief executive designate, has been appointed and is leading the review of LIBOR. The FCA is very much an independent body. Engagement with the Financial Policy Committee is relevant only when the FPC identifies a threat to financial stability that requires some action from the FCA. The circumstances in which the Prudential Regulatory Authority can veto acts of the FCA are limited. It is very clear in this approach that the FCA is not part of the Bank of England family.

[Stephen Hammond]

I bow, of course, to my hon. Friend’s greater knowledge of this matter. My key point was that the Bank of England and its family, cousins and outside friends will now have a much greater role at the centre of the regulation of our financial system and, indeed, of our overall economy.

It is in some ways understandable that the immediate drive of the Bill before us is to increase the powers of parliamentary accountability, but I think there is some confusion between accountability and independence. Parliament will gain further powers of control, scrutiny and accountability under the Financial Services Bill. The exact powers are clearly defined, with reference made to the new financial stability objective, to the position of the deputy governor and the Financial Policy Committee, to the Governor’s appointment for eight years and to the fact that the Treasury Committee and, indeed, Parliament can hold the Bank of England to account. That being so, it is not necessarily the case that giving the Treasury Committee the power of veto over the appointment of the Governor would enhance that accountability, although it might impede the Governor’s independence. It is right for Parliament to have greater accountability and greater scrutiny, but we need to be clear that the Governor, who is at the centre of the operation of macro-economic policy and macro-financial and prudential control, must be independent.

The Bill before us contains not only a power of veto but a power of appointment, which could be seen as a step backwards in the whole argument about independent policy making. The Bank of England Act 1998 took a momentous step forward in respect of the independence of the Bank and the Governor by giving the power of decision over interest rates to the Monetary Policy Committee. That was, and will remain, the historic achievement of the Labour Government. It followed from and was a continuation of what the previous Governor had introduced, in tandem with the then Chancellor, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), with the publication of the minutes of the interest rate-setting committee.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Does my hon. Friend believe that the conduct of monetary policy from 1998 to 2008 was any better than it was when the Bank of England was not independent and when previous Conservative Governments from 1979 onwards were interfering in monetary policy very considerably?

[Stephen Hammond]

Again, my hon. Friend presents me with a tempting line of debate. It is reasonable to suggest that the period between May 1993 and May 1997 will be regarded as one of the golden eras of the operation of monetary policy. It was the period that drove the first 12 quarters of growth before 1997, and it was the period during which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe and Baron George—who, as I said earlier, might not even have been appointed by a Treasury Committee—operated monetary policy. I am sure that my hon. Friend and I could enjoy a happy morning discussing monetary policy, but, as I have said, I will not go down that line.

The protections and requirements introduced by the Financial Services Bill seem to me to be exactly the same as those introduced by the Bank of England in terms of independence. What concerns me is that if the Treasury Committee can hold the Bank responsible for its actions in the past as well as its immediate decisions, it does not necessarily need a power of veto over the Governor’s appointment. It has the power of accountability and of scrutiny.

[Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

My hon. Friend has just made the interesting claim that the Treasury Committee would not have approved the appointment of the late Baron George, one of the great former Governors. What evidence has he to back up that claim?

[Stephen Hammond]

My contention was not that he would not have been appointed, but that he might not have been, simply because he had been a Bank of England insider all his life and had no experience of other parts of the financial system, or indeed of the economy. I am merely suggesting that if we empower the Committee to appoint the Governor, it may not take account of a number of the salient factors that the Chancellor can consider. It may take a narrower view.

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), who has now left the Chamber, made an interesting point about a split along political lines. In the case of Lord George, Committee members on both sides of the political divide might have taken the view, as a caucus, that a Bank of England insider would be entirely inappropriate as a Governor. I am not saying that he would not have been appointed; and my earlier remarks were not a filibuster, but a deliberate attempt to show that the appointments of some of the greatest Governors might have been called into question.

The Financial Services Bill rightly confers increased powers of scrutiny, but I do not understand how this Bill would safeguard independence, and I did not hear the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington explain that this morning. When he kindly allowed me to intervene earlier, I suggested that it would safeguard the independence of the Governor from the Government, but did not necessarily take account of his independence from Parliament. I think he should bear in mind the possibility that the independence of both the appointee and the institution itself would be undermined if the Treasury Committee were given the power of veto.

[Brandon Lewis]

Could it not be argued that if the Committee had such a direct power of appointment and veto, that in itself could bring into question its ability properly to scrutinise an independent Governor for whose appointment it was responsible in the first place?

[Stephen Hammond]

That is an interesting and valid point, and one that I had not intended to make myself. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend’s views in more detail.

[Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)]

Having spoken to my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), the Chairman of the Treasury Committee, in a private capacity, I think that he would be content for the Committee not to have a statutory veto, but merely to be consulted and to have an advisory role in the Governor’s appointment. I think it important for his private views also to be reflected in the debate.

[Stephen Hammond]

I am grateful for the opportunity to hear the private views of my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), but as he is not present to justify them, it would be wrong for me to comment on them. I will say, however, that if those are indeed his private views, I am surprised that he supports this Bill. The Committee is already able to attend pre-commencement hearings with appointees to the Monetary Policy Committee and will be able to do the same in future with appointees to the Financial Policy Committee. Obviously that could potentially involve agreement with the Government.

Let me return to the issue of the independence of both the person and the institution of the Governor of the Bank of England from the Treasury Committee.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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[Stephen Hammond]

Does the hon. Gentleman want to make a point about the issue of independence?

[Mr Love]

I apologise for intervening at this point, but having just spoken to the Chairman of the Treasury Committee, I think that he would want his attitude to be exemplified as a belief that the Committee should have a role in the Governor’s appointment. What he seeks, as does the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), is a signal from the Government that they would be receptive to that idea.

[Stephen Hammond]

As I am not in the position of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary—nor could I ever have the talent or ability to be so—that is not in my gift. We shall have to wait and see whether my hon. Friend chooses to make such a move later in the debate.

It seems to me that there are three crucial points to be made about the independence of the institution of the Governor of the Bank of England. Let me begin by saying that if the Governor were indeed appointed by the Treasury Committee, which would have the right of veto, the institution could be perceived to be tainted if the appointment reflected the politics or the political make-up of the Committee. That point was addressed by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington said that it was not relevant in the United Kingdom, citing the report from the Institute for Government, but anyone with even a cursory knowledge of American politics knows that appointment by committee in the American House is supremely political, and therefore potentially damaging to the role of institutions in that country. I shall make the same point shortly about the role of the individual, as opposed to the institution.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) pointed out, there is a question mark over the ability of the Treasury Committee to scrutinise the Governor, but there is also the possibility that the Governor, or the institution, might be perceived as being subservient in will to the Committee. There might come a time when there would be an impasse between the will of the Executive and that of the Committee, and that in itself could undermine the institution.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Surely exactly the same argument would apply if the appointment continued to be made by the Executive. Surely what matters is that Parliament—through the Treasury Committee—has the final say.

[Stephen Hammond]

I agree that Parliament must have the ability to scrutinise and that the body must be accountable, but I want the Governor to be independent as well. I am presenting some of the arguments that must be considered, or countered, if the Governor is to be independent in his operations. It is also true that the circumstance that I have just described would not arise if the Executive continued to make the appointment, because if the Treasury Committee did not have the power of veto, there could not be an impasse between the Committee and the Executive. However, my hon. Friend was probably referring to a point I made earlier.

[Mr Love]

The confirmatory hearings currently held by the Treasury Committee employ the criteria of competence and personal independence. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the existence of a framework within which decisions must be made by Select Committees, minimises—although it does not exclude—the chance of political interference?

[Stephen Hammond]

It might and it could. I accept that point. But equally it might and it might not, and it could and it could not. That is the point I am trying to make.

The hon. Gentleman’s intervention leads me into the next part of my argument. My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson) says the Treasury Committee Chairman wants to see some flexibility. There is already some flexibility in the system. The Committee has pre-commencement hearings for members of the Bank’s policy committees, which include both the Governors and deputy governors. The pre-commencement hearing is a process that allows parliamentary engagement, parliamentary scrutiny of appointments and parliamentary comment on appointments, but does not allow parliamentary veto. That is an evolving process that the Government have put in place and continue to support. It is, for a variety of reasons, the right mechanism.

Turning to the question of independence, there is a real risk in respect of the credibility of the individual concerned. While I am sure that all candidates will be of the highest ability and there will be no possible suggestion in the fourth estate or anywhere else that the successful candidate had been chosen on the basis of some odd criteria or that he was the only candidate the Treasury Committee would pass, others less generous than I might think that. That would lead to a credibility gap. It is also therefore clear that the person being appointed might be open to the charge that they were being appointed for their politics, not their economics. The Governor of the Bank of England must be free of the charge of being a political candidate.

[Mr Brady]

I know my hon. Friend is keen to move to a conclusion, so I apologise for delaying him, but I am concerned that he appears to be setting a very low standard of expectation for a Committee of this House that is elected by this House. In electing the Chairman and members of the Treasury Committee, we should choose people we have confidence in to make such decisions. If we do not have that confidence, we should remove them and elect different Members.

[Stephen Hammond]

The chairman of the 1922 committee is right on one thing and wrong on the other. It is very rare that I get to speak without a time limit, so I was not necessarily intending to conclude now—although I will, of course, do so very soon. As my hon. Friend will have noted from my argument, I was not trying to impugn the Treasury Committee or its candidate. I was merely pointing out that sometimes the outside observers of this House do not share the same faith in our institutions and decisions as we do. I was raising the possibility that a newspaper might impugn the reputation of a candidate by saying he is the only available candidate because he was the only one passed by the Treasury Committee. That would create a credibility gap in respect of that candidate, not only in the operation of financial regulation, but, more importantly, in the crucial international negotiations he will have to conduct on behalf of our country.

[Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)]

Is there not a danger that this whole process will create a media circus of the kind we see in the United States, and undermine the man or woman appointed as Governor before they even take up their position?

[Stephen Hammond]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is one of my concerns. I have tried to lay out some arguments suggesting that giving a veto to the Treasury Committee does not necessarily enhance the independence of the position of Governor.

Moving on now to my concluding remarks—my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady), the chairman of the 1922 committee, will be pleased to hear that—I just want to bring the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington back to his contention that this would not be a major change to our constitution. The Bill would put in place a legislative requirement for the Treasury Committee to have a veto over this appointment. The hon. Gentleman talked about the evolution of this role, but if he truly believed that, why does the Bill not seek to give Select Committees the power to veto all appointments—for there might be a number of Members of this House who would like to have parliamentary control of the appointment of the governor of the BBC, or the chief executive of Network Rail, or, closer to our hearts, the chief executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority? The hon. Gentleman said that private Members’ Bills give Members an opportunity to suggest changes to the Government. He might have had even wider support than he already has if he had introduced a Bill giving Select Committees the power of veto over appointments, so we could have had that more general discussion. To give that power of veto over this one appointment gives rise to considerable concerns, however, and it would create a major change in the constitutional position.

[John McDonnell]

I think that is the ideal argument for giving the Bill a Second Reading, so it can be amended appropriately.

[Stephen Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman and I disagree on that. I think it is the ideal reason why we should not give this Bill a Second Reading. We should be giving a Second Reading to the principle. We should be discussing the principle, not this specific case.

In my short speech this morning, I have tried to draw out a few reasons why it is absolutely right for there to be increased accountability and parliamentary scrutiny of the operation of the Bank of England and of its Governor. Although the Bill might appear to guarantee the independence of the Governor, it does not necessarily do so, and it would create a major extension of the constitutional position of Select Committees. Therefore, I hope Members will decline to give it a Second Reading.

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[Stephen Hammond]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Leslie]

On the Cliff Richard point, yes I will.

[Stephen Hammond]

Only last year I was a backing singer for Cliff Richard at the opening of the Wimbledon fair.

[Chris Leslie]

I am glad I was not there.

The Bank of England was established in about 1694, and we obviously must not rush these reforms. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for introducing this sensible proposition. If, as I hope, the Bill moves into Committee, we can refine some of the details of the accountability mechanisms. The Opposition are of the opinion that there is a need for stronger parliamentary accountability in respect of the appointment of the Governor. That ought to be done by the House of Commons as a whole, on the recommendation and advice of the Treasury Committee, rather than simply be delegated to the Treasury Committee to decide.

The arguments have already been enunciated. It is important that pre-confirmation hearings take place, that recommendations can be made by the Treasury Committee, and that then Parliament as a whole can decide. That would be the best way to proceed.

I do not want to speak for long because I want my hon. Friend to have the chance to secure his Bill’s Second Reading and to pass it on to Committee, where we can talk about these details. The Government’s proposals will vest the Bank of England with significant and radical new powers, particularly over what is known as macro-prudential policy making, through the new Financial Policy Committee and the Prudential Regulatory Authority. The Minister rather coyly suggests that the Financial Conduct Authority does not have a dotted line to the accountability process within the Bank. We all know that this is not just about a powerful bank, but about the immensely powerful Governor of the Bank of England. Some have described that person as a superhuman individual and the appointment will clearly be of major national significance to our economy and to the finances of our constituents and businesses up and down the country.

We debated the question of improving internal checks and balances for the Governor of the Bank of England when we considered the Financial Services Bill. The Opposition said at the time that the court of the Bank of England needed radical improvement and that its role should be more supervisory. That recommendation came from the Treasury Committee, yet there was resistance from the Government. It is now not unreasonable to want to improve and enhance the external checks and balances on the Bank of England and I do not think that would in any way compromise the independence of the operational monetary policy decisions over interest rates. I do not think that those things are at all incompatible.

It would have been nice if the Financial Services Bill could have been amended in the Lords in such a way, but the Government resisted that. We need to ask why they are so frightened of giving Parliament—in which, by the way, they have a majority—the opportunity to have that debate on pre-confirmation hearings and given to give the Treasury Committee the power to make a recommendation that the House of Commons could make on its own.

It is important to note that other central banks in other jurisdictions have similar arrangements. In the United States, for example, Congress has oversight over the appointments.

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[Stephen Hammond]

I am interested to follow this line of reasoning. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) said that a vote on the Floor of the House of Commons, or perhaps the Government, could overturn a Treasury Committee decision and, if necessary, get rid of the Committee. However, the problem is that Committee members are no longer appointed by Whips but elected, and there is no guarantee that a newly elected Committee would not also choose to be in conflict with the Government.

[Matthew Hancock]

Of course. The Government must command support for their programme from a majority of the House of Commons, but the Treasury Committee is voted for by Back Benchers, and as the two electorates are different we would not necessarily get the same result from both. The argument put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset—most of Somerset—(Jacob Rees-Mogg) is an argument for deadlock because it could lead to the Treasury Committee pushing one point of view and—because it is elected by a different electorate from those who support a Government—ending up with a contravening view being expressed on the Floor of the House. That is because the Bill would apply to the Treasury Select Committee or its successor body should its name be changed or its powers be passed to somebody else.

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[Matthew Hancock]

Absolutely, and the Minister will be delighted to hear that he has anticipated the next section of my speech.

The nine years war, which the Bank of England was set up to finance, was the first example of successful co-operation on a strategy between the Governor and the Government of the day. The first Governor was a man called Sir John Houblon—his face appears on a modern £50 bank note, so hon. Members will know him well. Like many of his successors, Sir John dealt with the City but was not part of it. He was a grocer by trade and rose through the East India company—he was a business man who came to the City to oversee the Bank. At that time, the Governor, deputy governors and directors of the Bank were voted for by private shareholders, who had to have a £500 shareholding—a huge amount in those days. The Governor had to have a £4,000 shareholding.

We can only speculate who would get the job now if the late 17th century equivalent of the Treasury Committee had a veto over candidates. The House of Commons was, back in the day, notoriously corrupt and vice-ridden, unlike today. By way of illustration, the prospective parliamentary candidate for a by-election in Bath laid on a meal before polling day. There were 32 voters, but the meal consisted of two boiled haunches, two chines of mutton, four geese, four pigs, 12 turkeys, plain chickens, rabbits, an abundance of claret and sherry, and—my favourite—two venison pasties. A ball to persuade the voters’ wives followed. Glasses were broken and windows shattered at the end of it.

The modern system of corporate governance is similar to chief executive officers having skin in the game in financial organisations. As my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) pointed out, when the Bank was given operational independence in 1997, it was returning to the independence it had enjoyed for 200-odd years until it was nationalised in 1946.

There are examples of when the Bank and the Government have agreed broadly on strategy and prosecuted it effectively, but there are also historical examples of how things can go wrong. The Bank was founded before the first Governor took office by an initial loan made by a Scottish banker called William Paterson. Founding the Bank was not Paterson’s only contribution to economic history; he was also the main instigator of the infamous Darien scheme, which involved a Scottish colony in Panama that was supposed to replicate the success of the English colonies in north America. With a monopoly company facilitating trade between the new and old worlds, the Scottish public went wild for the scheme and invested a quarter of the country’s gross domestic product in the embryonic New Caledonia. Of course, the reason the Panama canal is not called the firth of the Pacific is that the colony was a disaster—thanks to poor leadership, endemic diseases and weak demand for Panamanian goods—bankrupted Scotland and led, indirectly, to the Act of Union in 1707. Although William Paterson was not the last Scot to drive a country to the brink of financial ruin, he might have been the first.

I shall cite another example of the Bank and the Government having separate strategies that shows why the Bill would be a mistake. In 1716, a man named John Law, another Scottish gambler-turned-economist, managed to persuade the Government of France that, having defaulted on their debts four times between 1648 and 1715, they could create a scheme to end the national debt by enabling them to take control of the money supply and replace gold and silver, whose price was ruled by the markets, with something that he said would be more stable. He suggested creating a central bank in France along the lines of the Bank of England. In return for the deposits on gold and silver, there would be paper money deposited in a state-owned scheme that would turn it into something more valuable. This proved irresistible to the French people.

[Stephen Hammond]

On the subject of gold and silver and the gold standard, there is a much more modern example of where the Governor and the Government split over policy—post-first world war and into the 1930s, when Montagu Norman disagreed with the Labour Government about returning to the gold standard. We know the catastrophe that followed then.

[Matthew Hancock]

In that example, there was one person who understood the implications of returning to the gold standard and whose views were more consistent with the Labour Government’s. John Maynard Keynes argued vociferously for the strategy that many in the Government wanted to pursue but which he could not persuade the rest of the Bank to pursue, which was that they had to stimulate the economy in times of economic weakness and that there would not be an automatic return to growth. That is an argument with which I strongly agree. It is important to ensure an effective stimulus when the economy is weak. The most effective such stimulus today is monetary policy.

That brings us directly to the strategy now. The Bank and the Government broadly agree on the economic strategy of tight and responsible fiscal policy and loose monetary policy in order to deliver economic growth that is sustainable and not based simply on building up more debt. However, immediately before the 2010 general election, when I entered the House, it appeared that the Bank did not agree with the then Government’s strategy. This was destabilising. I used the example from 1716 to show that there is a long history of problems when there is disagreement on strategy, but it is by no means a problem that went away after 1716—it was with us right up until 2010, although fortunately it is not the case right now.

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[Matthew Hancock]

I am merely saying that Mr Patrick Diamond was a good candidate for that role. I am particularly concerned about the tit for tat political retaliation, which we do not want to bring into this system.

In Japan, in March 2008, the opposition party had a majority of seats in the upper house—this ties closely with the debate that we will be having in this very Chamber on Monday and Tuesday next week—and it rejected proposals by the Government to appoint a former Finance Minister as the Bank of Japan governor. That led to a 20-day period, at the height of the financial crisis, when Japan had no Governor of the central bank. It subsequently took two years to fill all the vacancies on the Bank of Japan policy board. That is evidence of what happens when there is a parliamentary veto. The argument that that would lead to more effective policy making has been roundly dismissed, but the argument that it would bring risks into policy making, and the risk of having no Governor at all, is strengthened by evidence in the US and Japan, the two biggest economies that have a similar process.

[Stephen Hammond]

There is one final risk, which is that after the veto, the candidate who is then in place is seen as the second choice by the markets, and that is a great risk to the economic future of the country.

[Matthew Hancock]

I certainly agree. The private consultation, for instance, would be a far better process to ensure that there is consensus and the strength of a broad agreement behind the incumbent, who has to rise above party politics once appointed.

There have been some great central banking success stories over even the last decade. The Reserve Bank of Australia has an appointments process similar to that of the UK, yet no Australian bank needed a bail-out—so far—or suffered a downgrade, and Australia avoided recession. The Governor of the Bank of Canada is nominated by independent directors of the bank and confirmed by the Government. During the global recession, Canada’s GDP declined by 3.4%, compared with 4% in the US and more here. Not a single Canadian bank failed or required an emergency capital injection from the Government. Today, employment and economic activity in Canada are back at their pre-crisis levels, whereas here they languish below those levels because of the depth of difficulties that we got into when a Government did not listen to the Governor of the Bank of England. In addition the Bank of Canada had regulatory control over their banks, as proposed in the new Financial Services Bill.

This Bill is no magic bullet. It brings in risks without rewards, it is of a deeply constitutional nature, it deserves all the scrutiny that it is getting, and I oppose it.