Amesbury Update

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement updating the House on recent developments in Salisbury and Amesbury. As I told the House last week, a major incident was declared in Wiltshire on Tuesday after two people were found unwell at a home in Amesbury. Both were taken to Salisbury District Hospital, where they were treated for exposure to a nerve agent of the type known as Novichok. This has been identified as the same type of nerve agent that contaminated both Yulia and Sergei Skripal.

It is with profound sadness that I must inform the House that one of the patients, Dawn Sturgess, died last night at Salisbury District Hospital. I know that the whole House will want to join me in expressing our sincere condolences to her family and friends. The police are working to ensure that her family have all the support they need at this extremely difficult time. I know that the House will also want to join me in expressing our sincere thanks to the police and emergency services and to the staff at Salisbury District Hospital for their tireless professionalism and for the dedicated care they provided to Dawn Sturgess, and which they continue to provide to Dawn’s partner, 45 year-old Charlie Rowley, who remains critically ill in hospital. I met some of them at the weekend and I know just how hard they have worked and how committed they are to doing the best job possible.

Honourable Members may also be aware that a police officer working on the investigation was seen at Great Western Hospital and later transferred to Salisbury District Hospital as a precautionary measure. I can report to the House that the police officer was not poisoned, did not require treatment and has since left hospital.

Dawn’s death only strengthens our resolve to find out exactly what happened and who is behind it. I have just chaired a COBRA meeting to discuss the next steps, and the Prime Minister and I will continue to receive regular updates about the situation. This is now a murder investigation, which is being led by around 100 detectives from counterterrorism police command, alongside officers from Wiltshire Police and other constabularies.

We know that tests conducted at Porton Down have shown that both individuals were exposed to the same type of Novichok used to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal in March. Officers are still trying to work out how the pair were exposed to the nerve agent, although tests have confirmed that they touched a contaminated item with their hands. The investigation is now moving as quickly as possible to identify what the source of the contamination was. Police officers have cordoned off a number of sites in Amesbury and Salisbury that we believe the two individuals visited in the period before they fell ill. This is a precautionary measure while we continue to investigate how they came into contact with the substance.

As I told the House last week, there is no evidence that either person visited any of the sites that were decontaminated following the attempted murders of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in March. We have taken a very robust approach to decontamination, and all sites reopened following the attempted murders in March are safe. Last week, the Chief Medical Officer for England said that the risk to the wider public remains low but that the public should not pick up any strange items, such as needles, syringes or unusual containers, given that the source of the contamination has not yet been found. This advice remains unchanged. However, in light of recent developments and to provide further reassurances for residents, I have asked the Government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies to reassure itself that the advice remains appropriate in the light of the news we heard overnight.

This has been a very upsetting time, not just for Dawn’s family but also for the people of Amesbury and Salisbury, who have seen places they know and love cordoned off and become a murder investigation scene. I would like to reassure them that we are doing everything we can to keep people safe. I have also agreed with my colleagues that the Cabinet Office will work across government departments to develop a suitable support package for local businesses.

The murder investigation is ongoing, and investigators are working urgently and around the clock. This work will take time, and the investigation must be allowed to proceed on the evidence and the facts alone. I will keep the House and the public updated on any significant developments. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank both noble Lords for their questions. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the prospect of being able to name the suspects. Clearly, there is now a murder investigation. We have the poisoning of the Skripals, plus the gentleman in hospital. An investigation is ongoing and, as with any investigation, one would always hope to get to the truth of who it was. The Russian state was named in the original poisoning of the Skripals. As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, there is a working assumption that the poison in this case is the same as was used on the Skripals. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said that the risk is low but lethal, and he is absolutely right. This nerve agent is lethal, and all the more so because it is so difficult to detect.

In terms of repeated messages to the public, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked again what I can say to reassure them. I can only repeat the Chief Medical Officer’s point that the risk is very low but that residents should be vigilant. Residents can expect to see an increased police presence and wide cordons round the locations to protect the public. That will look very similar to the activity that took place in Salisbury earlier this year. The Government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies is keeping the current public health advice under review, and the Home Secretary has asked it to provide him with a further update tomorrow. Residents who are worried should refer to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and Public Health England, which draws on the full breadth of the specialist scientific expertise available to the Government. Wiltshire Police has set up two telephone numbers for anyone who has concerns relating to this incident, and of course the media continue to emphasise vigilance but also that the risk remains low.

On that point, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the role of the PCC. The counterterrorist police are leading the investigation but the PCC will liaise with them carefully and closely as they continue their investigation. They have an operational role, whereas the PCC will have much more of a strategic role going forward and during the investigation.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether we are sure that the threat has now gone. That would be the hope. Clearly, the police are continuing to surveil the area and are trying to get to the source of the contamination. We hope that when the source is found the threat will have gone, but the whole investigation is ongoing, so I cannot say with certainty that it has completely gone.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked a valid question: if the police have not spoken to the victims, how do they know that there was a container? He will recall that last week the police spoke to witnesses. There is CCTV footage of the movements of the individuals but, of course, not of the container, syringe or whatever it might be. However, the police will be operating on witness statements about the movement of the two individuals and what they were seen to be doing. The noble Lord also asked whether this would be treated as a murder inquiry. The death of Dawn Sturgess is already being treated as a murder inquiry. I conclude by saying that I take the Chief Medical Officer’s advice that people are at low risk but it is wise that they are vigilant in the weeks and months to come.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, again asked about the local economy. Not only has it taken a double hit but people must now be quite scared of going to Salisbury. I know that MHCLG is working with the town council on a recovery plan for the local economy.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Is there any prospect whatever that this nerve agent could have come to Salisbury other than from a state source, and does the finger of blame seem to point very clearly at the Russian state in this matter?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will remember that back in March we were sure that the incident bore all the hallmarks of a Russian state-type poisoning. We have no evidence that it came from another source, so I think that at this stage we can be fairly sure that the source is the Russian state.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the original advice to residents was correct? Further, does she agree that it is inconceivable that the authorities had not considered the risk of a discarded container? However, would it not have been grossly irresponsible to raise alarm among the general public when there was no possibility of finding the container, with the risk that members of the general public might go hunting for it when they were ill equipped to find it? As we know, there is the difficulty of the poison being very difficult to detect. Therefore, does the Minister agree that the advice and actions of the authorities dealing with this matter have been correct in all respects?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Like my noble friend and other noble Lords, I pay tribute to the police and the health clinicians who have worked on both incidents. Like my noble friend, I think that the original advice to residents was correct: there was, and remains, a low risk. There was no assumption about there being a source of the poison or about the possibility of it still being there, because one would not have known—in fact, one still does not know—that there was a discarded source of the poison. I suspect that local people were not hunting for it, but in the course of the investigation it will become clear how they managed to happen upon it.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

My Lords, as it happens, over the weekend I was talking to a member of the clergy who is a resident of Salisbury. I simply asked her how it feels, and she said, “Grim and deeply disturbing”, because of the second occurrence. She said that people were just beginning to come out of this and now they do not know how to react. She was talking about community life, businesses and so on. In exploring support for businesses, does the Minister understand that this feels like a double hit for people in Salisbury, and that community encouragement and up-building is needed, not simply economic support? I ask this largely in the name of my noble friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Salisbury.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally understand the right reverend Prelate’s point and the point that his friend made to him. It is not just about the economy—it is the whole life of the community. I read a comment from a resident who said that the whole park has been cordoned off, and it had been the centre of community life. I totally take his point that it is not just a double hit: the effect has been felt more widely now. He does not need to persuade me; I understand where he is coming from. A whole-community response is needed and it must be more than just updates—there must be support for this community.

Amesbury Incident

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement regarding the events that have been unfolding in Amesbury and Salisbury. This morning, I chaired a meeting of the Government’s emergency committee, COBR, covering the ongoing investigation in Amesbury. Separately, I have been briefed by the security services and the counterterrorism police.

As many of you will now know, a 45 year-old man and a 44 year-old woman were found to be unwell at a property at Muggleton Road in Amesbury on Saturday. Both are British citizens. Paramedics attended the scene and admitted the pair to the A&E department at Salisbury District Hospital. Here they were treated for exposure to an unknown substance. Further testing by expert scientists in chemical warfare at the Porton Down laboratory confirmed this to be the nerve agent of the type known as Novichok. This has been identified as the same nerve agent that contaminated both Yulia and Sergei Skripal. The pair are currently in a critical condition and I am sure the House will want to join me in wishing them a swift and full recovery. I would also like to express my sincere thanks to the emergency services and staff at Salisbury District Hospital for their tireless professionalism and the dedicated care they are providing.

I understand that there will be some concerns about what this means for public safety. In particular, I recognise that some local Wiltshire residents are feeling very anxious. Let me reassure you that public safety is of paramount importance. Public Health England’s latest assessment is that, based on the number of casualties affected, there is no significant risk to the wider public. Its advice is informed by scientists and the police as the facts evolve. Dame Sally Davies, the Chief Medical Officer, has confirmed that the risk to the public remains low and has asked that the public follow the advice of Public Health England and the police.

She has also advised that people who have visited the areas that have been recently cordoned off should wash their clothes and wipe down any items they were carrying at the time. She has also urged people not to pick up any unknown or already dangerous objects such as needles and syringes. This is not new advice and it follows what was said in March. We have a well-established response to these types of incidents and clear processes to follow.

I also want to add that all the sites that have been decontaminated following the attempted murders of Sergei and Yulia Skripal are safe. All sites which have been reopened have undergone thorough testing and any items that may have harboured residual amounts of the agent were safely removed for disposal. We have taken a very robust approach to decontamination and there is no evidence that either the man or the woman in hospital visited any of the places that were visited by the Skripals. Our strong working assumption is that the couple came into contact with the nerve agent in a different location from the sites which have been part of the original clean-up operation.

The police have also set up two dedicated phone numbers for anyone with concerns relating to this incident. Salisbury District Hospital remains open as usual and is advising people to attend routine appointments unless they are contacted to state otherwise.

We are taking this incident incredibly seriously and are working around the clock to discover precisely what has happened, where and why. Be assured that we have world-leading scientists, intelligence officers and police on the case. Local residents can expect to see an increased police presence in and around Amesbury and Salisbury. All six sites that were visited by the pair before they collapsed have been cordoned off and are being securely guarded as a precaution. An investigation has started to work out how these two individuals came into contact with the nerve agent.

Around 100 detectives from the National Counter Terrorism Policing Network are working to support this investigation, alongside colleagues from Wiltshire Police. Samples from the victims have been tested by experts at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down, who are world-renowned experts in the field.

Obviously this incident will evoke memories of the reckless attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal earlier this year, given the similarities. I know that many of you will question whether this incident is linked to that one. This is the leading line of inquiry. However, we must not jump to conclusions and we must give the police the space and time to carry out their investigations. The police’s work will take time. But we are ready to respond as and when new evidence comes to light and the situation becomes clearer.

Following the events in Salisbury earlier this year, we rapidly worked with international partners at the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, OPCW, to confirm our identification of the nerve agent used. Through a process of extensive, impartial testing and analysis, our findings were confirmed correct beyond doubt.

The use of chemical weapons anywhere is barbaric and inhumane. The decision taken by the Russian Government to deploy these in Salisbury on 4 March was reckless and callous. There is no plausible alternative explanation of the events in March other than that the Russian state was responsible—and we acted accordingly.

The British Government and the international community immediately and robustly condemned this inhuman action. In light of this attack, the UK expelled 23 Russian diplomats from our shores, and we were joined by 28 of our closest international allies in this action, from the United States to Ukraine, who expelled over 150 of the Russian state’s diplomats in similar condemnation of this action.

We have already seen multiple explanations from state-sponsored Russian media regarding this latest incident. We can anticipate further disinformation from the Kremlin, as we saw following the attack in Salisbury. As we did before, we will be consulting with our international partners and allies following these latest developments. The eyes of the world are currently on Russia, not least because of the World Cup. It is now time that the Russian state comes forward and explains exactly what has gone on so that the most appropriate course of action can be taken.

Let me be clear, we do not have a quarrel with the Russian people. Rather, it is the actions of the Russian Government that continue to undermine our security and that of the international community. We will stand up to actions that threaten our security and the security of our partners. It is completely unacceptable for our people to be either deliberate or accidental targets, or for our streets, our parks or our towns to be dumping grounds for poison. We will continue our investigations as a matter of urgency, and I will keep the House and the public updated on any significant developments.

I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made earlier in the other place. This is clearly a shocking and unexpected development, and our best wishes go to the couple and those who responded—and continue to respond—to this incident.

I understand that the incident is ongoing and we should not make assumptions, but does the Minister agree that there appears to be a lack of motivation, which might suggest that this is not a deliberate poisoning? In the last 10 minutes or so, the police have said that the couple have been contaminated by handling a contaminated item. Somebody from the Chief Medical Officer’s staff told the “Today” programme this morning that in high concentrations the nerve agent can be absorbed through the skin but in lower concentrations it has to be ingested. Is there any indication that the victims may have injected the substance? It would clearly be reassuring to members of the public if that was the case.

On the one hand, a chemical weapons expert is quoted by the BBC as believing that the latest victims could have come across the Novichok that poisoned the Skripals after it had been haphazardly disposed of. On the other hand, a Russian scientist who first exposed the Novichok programme cast doubts on that theory, saying that Novichok would have decomposed in the four months since the attack on the Skripals. The Minister talked about the expulsion of Russian diplomats across the globe as a consequence of what happened before, but what if the Russian scientist is right that this is a fresh batch of the nerve agent? What would the international implications of that be? The Russian scientist told the BBC that this must have been a separate incident because Novichok was unstable, especially in damp conditions. Can the Minister add to this?

I know that it is difficult, as I am about to tell the House in the debate that follows this Statement, to provide clear information in the early days following such an incident. That is difficult to do but the public need to be told whether this is a new attack, which could throw doubt on the whole matter, or whether it is an accidental poisoning caused by leftovers from the Skripal attack. Residents are very concerned. What can the Minister say to reassure them? When we had the previous nerve agent attack, we learned more from the media than we learned from the Minister’s Statement in the House. Can she provide the House with some additional information that will help your Lordships to understand what has happened and reassure the residents in the area affected?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Paddick, for their very constructive comments and questions, as is usual following this type of incident and the making of such a Statement to your Lordships’ House.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, talked first about the names of the victims. I know that they have been in the press but we have not confirmed their names. He and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about local residents being very concerned. Of course they will be concerned; they have had two almost identical incidents in their vicinity in the last few months. I hope that the words of Dame Sally Davies and the police have provided some comfort to them that the risk is low, while saying that people should remain vigilant and not touch things such as syringes, which might be dangerous, and that if they see anything they are concerned about or feel unwell, they should immediately contact the helpline.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, mentioned the different location and he is absolutely right. Not only did the events of the weekend take place in a different location but the couple in question do not appear to have visited any of the original sites. He also asked whether there would be constant reassurance of the public and constant updates to them as time goes on. We have seen over the past couple of days that the police and Dame Sally Davies have been very forthcoming in the information that they have given to the public. Any funding or assistance required will of course be forthcoming. Some 100 counterterrorism police detectives have been deployed and mutual aid from other police forces has been sent to Amesbury to assist.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, mentioned a crucial point: the local economy. I know it suffered the first time round and people will be very concerned. Another department, MHCLG, provided a lot of assistance in the aftermath of the previous event and I expect it will deploy similar assistance to the local area following this one.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked several questions, some of which I will not be able to answer. One was about whether it was a deliberate poisoning. The police have said that the poisoning was due to handling a contaminated item. He spoke about injecting the poison and made a point about the Russian scientist who said that in his opinion it was a fresh batch. I cannot substantiate any of those points. As the investigation proceeds the facts will become much clearer and it is not for me to comment on them at this stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is a sad thing to say, but because there has been a previous attack I think the whole system has operated far more smoothly this time. The noble Baroness is right to point out that any delays could be life-threatening to the people involved. There is a number to ring. I understand that the hospital is the one the Skripals were in, so there is experience of dealing with this. I assume that what the noble Baroness requests is happening and that the whole process will run a lot more smoothly this time.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, after the Salisbury attack the response of our allies, NATO and the international community was very heartening. Notwithstanding the successful football tournament going on in Russia at the moment, can my noble friend reassure the House that the initial response of our allies, whatever the circumstances of this incident, remains steadfast and determined and shows solidarity with the British people on this?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can confirm, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary confirmed this morning, that a number of international engagement opportunities are coming up. Let us not forget that we are at the beginning of an investigation, but of course there will be opportunities for international engagement as time goes forward. I fully expect that our international partners will stand with us this time, as they did last time.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

We are all grateful to the Minister for the Statement even though there is only a limited amount that she can tell us. What arrangements have been put in place for the health and welfare of the first responders from the emergency services who will have attended the scene?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises a very important point, because he will remember that, last time, they were clad from head to toe in special suits to stop contamination. Their welfare is of the utmost importance. They risk life and limb to attend these things, and I assure him that their health and welfare is of the utmost concern to us, and we have of course put measures in place to ensure their safety.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My noble friend will be aware that the UK Armed Forces have trained for a very long time to be able to counter chemical weapons attacks. The training is not very pleasant. My noble friend Lord Robathan and I will both have stood in a CS gas chamber and been told to eat a dry biscuit. It is not fun training.

We have a range of technologies available to detect and counter chemical agents. A persistent nerve agent can normally be detected by hand-held equipment, which is held at unit level. Am I right in believing that Novichok cannot be detected in that way? Does that partially account for why the clean-up operation has been so time-consuming and difficult, and why the authorities were unable to find any discarded equipment? They could go to obvious places where it might have been discarded, but it was very difficult to detect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right to point out that Novichok is a military-grade nerve agent. Therefore, the usual methods of detection are impossible. It is a lengthier process and far more difficult to pinpoint—hence, possibly, why we have had the events of the past few days.

[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right to refuse to speculate about the causes of this, but will she ask the media not to speculate about possible causes as to why this couple were found in a distressed situation? Some disgraceful things have been said in the media which should not have been aired there; that was most unhelpful.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for making that point. Perhaps the media should have guarded against naming the couple in the first place before their families had been informed, which is the reason that the Government have not named the couple. I have read all sorts of things in the media over the past 24 hours. Thank goodness I do not get my briefings from the media, else we might have heard all sorts of nonsense across the Dispatch Box this afternoon. I totally support a free press, but my noble friend is right: this reporting has been irresponsible.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank my noble friend and noble Lords on all sides of the House for expressing their support for the emergency services, who do such an amazing job in the circumstances. I especially endorse Salisbury hospital and its A&E. As a resident near Salisbury I have used it often and thought it was brilliant with the Skripals—to have the expertise in these awful weapons of mass destruction, which I think meant that they saved the lives of that wretched couple. I very much wish that the latest unfortunate incident will have a similarly good outcome.

I want to ask a different question about Salisbury itself. My noble friend mentioned that some things have been done to try to alleviate the hit on the shops and market of Salisbury from the incident, but I go there every Saturday. There are lots of closed shops. There was some help with parking. Can she either give us a little more detail or ask the MHCLG to write to us with details of what has been done for the people of Salisbury and may be done in future, because this is a double whammy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I join my noble friend in paying tribute to the emergency services. It must be very frightening to go in to assist, knowing that this substance is so deadly, but trying to save lives at the same time. I agree with her that Salisbury hospital has done an incredible job saving the lives of the Skripals, and I hope it will save the lives of the couple involved in this incident.

I will ask the MHCLG to write to my noble friend about how it has helped the local economy following the previous incident and how it intends to bring confidence back to a place which must have been really badly shaken by this latest incident. She is absolutely right: help is badly needed for the town to get back on its feet.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that it sounds unlikely that this was an attack aimed at individuals? In its social, economic and psychological impact, is not an incident such as this much closer to something such as a cyberattack and does it not underline the vulnerability of modern societies to these new, mysterious and amorphous risks?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the first question, clearly I cannot comment, because the investigation has not reached its conclusion but that certainly seems to be what is promoted in the press. In terms of likening it to a cyberattack, agents such as Novichok have in fact been around for some time—it kind of reminded me of the Cold War, where such methods were used; I know that, after the first attack, people seemed to compare it with the Cold War era. The number of different ways, including cyberattacks, that can debilitate a town, region or even a country are growing and we are right to be concerned.

Saddleworth and Tameside Moors

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat an Answer to an Urgent Question posed yesterday in another place:

“Mr Speaker, the wildfires on Saddleworth Moor near Manchester and across the border in Lancashire at Winter Hill near Bolton and into Derbyshire remain major incidents. The number of fire appliances and firefighters on scene fluctuates each day according to the immediate need. However, Manchester fire and rescue service has about 30 fire appliances currently deployed and 29 appliances have been deployed to the Lancashire fire. In addition, two high-volume pumps are in use, with a variety of specialist equipment and teams.

Support is being provided by other fire and rescue services from across the north of England and as far afield as the West Midlands, and a team of specialist wildfire firefighters from Wales has also attended the Winter Hill site. This wider support is being co-ordinated by a team in Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service, directly funded by the Home Office, which provides specialist support in major emergencies such as this.

One hundred military personnel have been providing support on Saddleworth Moor since Thursday, and the initial three-day deployment has been extended to tomorrow, with a request now received for the soldiers to continue their support to Manchester fire and rescue service through until Friday. The response currently also includes one helicopter from the local water company, and support from the National Police Air Service.

We remain in regular contact with the fire and rescue services responding to the incident, and I have spoken about the fires with the chiefs of Manchester and Lancashire fire and rescue services, and the Home Secretary has also spoken to the Mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham.

I place on record my appreciation of the incredible work of the firefighters, military and other partner agencies in responding to these wildfires. The current hot, dry weather means that the fires are likely to persist for some time, and the Government continue to liaise with the responders on the ground who are tackling the fires and are ready to provide further support when it is needed”.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Answer to the Question in the other place yesterday. I join her in expressing my thanks to the firefighters, the Army, the local authorities and others for their tireless work in this extreme and hostile environment. Will she join me in condemning anyone involved in setting fires in the area as dangerous, irresponsible idiots, and confirm that the Government will give any assistance required to bring the perpetrators to justice?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I most certainly will, using exactly the same words as the noble Lord, although I shall not utter them. I understand that one arrest has been made, but he is right: it is an act of the most terrible folly to endanger both the countryside and, potentially, the lives of people and animals.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, this is a serious and significant fire for those of us who live in the north of England. Our thanks and recognition are due to all those who are fighting to contain the fire. Nine days on, the fire has been only contained, not put out. How much financial support is being given to the local authorities covering, I think, nine fire services which are now fighting the fire? What help is being given to combat the air pollution, which will have a serious effect on those who already have lung-related illnesses? Lastly, if the wind changes direction to its more normal westerly or south-westerly, which will drive the fire across into Yorkshire, what contingency plans are in place to stop it spreading even further?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In terms of financial support, there has not been a Bellwin request yet, but any help that is needed has been forthcoming. The noble Baroness will have heard in my Statement about the types of help that have been forthcoming. She asked whether the wind changes direction. A fire shield has already been put up that has stopped wind changes from spreading the fire even further but, of course, this is a process of ongoing monitoring and risk assessment, and the appropriate action will be taken as needs be.

[Lord Jopling (Con)]

My Lords, have the Government attempted to bring in those large yellow seaplanes which I have seen operating in Canada, France and Italy, and which are much more effective at dealing with fires of this nature than helicopters because they have infinitely greater capacity? That really would be a far better way in which to try to deal with a fire.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is right to ask that, but we have to be clear here that we are guided by the Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service. In being guided by that service, I can tell my noble friend that helicopter assistance is in use with water buckets and is complementing the ground attack, if you like. There is one helicopter from United Utilities, and support as needed from a further helicopter from the National Police Air Service, but I will take his comments back.

[Lord Hoyle (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree, as she knows the area very well, that the beautiful and magnificent village of Rivington is in grave danger? Does she agree with me also that it is right that Lancashire Fire and Rescue Service makes this a top priority?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do know the area very well, as I was nearly elected to a place near there. In fact, we passed the Winter Hill site on our way up to the Lake District on Saturday. The noble Lord is absolutely right to make that point about Rivington. As part of the risk assessment that is going on all the time, I am sure that everyone will be very mindful, given the proximity to Rivington.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, why is it impossible to deploy more RAF helicopters?

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

If the noble Lord is talking about the communication mast on Winter Hill—anyone who lives in that area will know it well, because it sticks out so prominently—I understand that at this time it is safe. Clearly, risk assessments are going on all the time. I echo the noble Lord’s comments that anyone who is wilfully setting fires is not only endangering other people’s lives but endangering the beautiful countryside that they have up there.

I shall probably come in on the question of the RAF helicopters. Did my noble friend want to ask any other question?

[Lord Trefgarne]

No—that will do nicely.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to my other noble friend, in terms of what is deployed and when we are guided by the fire and rescue service but have also been in close contact with the fire chiefs and the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham. We are guided by local knowledge and assessment, and we are providing what is requested as being needed to fight the fires.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, it was reported on the radio this morning that the Fire Brigades Union was appealing for baseball hats, sun cream and socks to be sent to the firemen who were working. These firemen work heroically in horrendous conditions. Surely the local councils and the Government should ensure that they have all these facilities and capabilities. It is quite ridiculous that the Fire Brigades Union has to make this sort of appeal.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Such is the danger of Twitter that I hope I can set the record straight: we understand that the tweet that went out to the public from Manchester FRS was not a formal request. If a request was put to us, we would certainly follow it up, but no such request has formally been put to the Home Office.

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

My Lords, as the climate appears to be getting warmer, will we invest in the sort of firefighting aircraft that the Mediterranean region has, which can carry much larger loads of water at any one time?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is important to put into context what has gone on in the last couple of weeks in Greater Manchester. The fires are terrible, but we have wildfires all the time. That process of risk assessment and deployment of emergency services is ongoing. I would not like to pre-empt what type of aircraft or firefighting equipment are needed to deal with wildfires, but it is certainly something that the fire and rescue service will be mindful of as it makes risk assessments, if indeed we see a continued trend of this type of warm weather.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, the Army has a wide range of cross-country water tankers. Why are they not being deployed? Will the Minister assure the House that it has nothing to do with difficulties in negotiating the finance?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I reiterate to my noble friend that any request for assistance has been met and, therefore, if certain vehicles, aircraft and water pumps are not deployed, that is because they have not been requested.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as somebody who owns a heather moor. I wonder if the Government will look into whether the moor was subject to moorland management—some conservation bodies nowadays believe in not managing moors at all.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend asks a very pertinent question. I will refer it to my colleagues in Defra because I do not know the correct answer to it.

LGBT Action Plan

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given in the other place by my right honourable friend Penny Mordaunt. The Statement is as follows:

“In July last year, the Government launched a national survey asking lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people about their experiences of living in the UK. I am pleased that the Government are today publishing the findings from the survey, alongside an LGBT action plan that sets out the Government’s policy response to the results.

The national LGBT survey received over 108,000 responses, making it the largest national survey of LGBT people conducted in the world to date. Responses covered a range of issues, including safety, health, education and the experience of being LGBT in the UK. The findings will serve as a crucial addition to the evidence base. While there were many positives to take from the findings, they also showed that there is more to do before we achieve equality for LGBT people in the UK.

The LGBT action plan contains 75 actions that the Government will take to address the survey findings. These include the appointment of a national LGBT health adviser within the NHS to tackle the health inequalities that LGBT people face, the extension of our existing anti-homophobic, biphobic and transphobic bullying programme, and a commitment to end the practice of conversion therapy in the UK. This plan will be supported by the provision of £4.5 million from within existing Government Equalities Office budgets between now and 2020. I want this plan to be delivered by the end of this Parliament, and funding beyond 2019-20 will be agreed through the spending review process.

The documents that the Government are publishing today represent a significant milestone in this Government’s commitment to building a country that works for everyone, irrespective of their sexual orientation or gender identity”.

[Baroness Gale (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Statement and welcome the action plan and the announcement today that the Government will launch a consultation on changes to the Gender Recognition Act. However, as the Minister said, some of the findings from the survey suggest that there is more to be done and can make difficult reading. It is clear that there will be a lot of work to do to ensure that LGBT people are respected and able to live their lives in public without fear.

The LGBT action plan says that the Government will bring forward proposals to end the practice of conversion therapy, which is to be welcomed. Can the Minister confirm that this will be a full ban and tell the House how it will be enforced?

I am glad to see that the action plan promises a national health adviser to work with healthcare professionals and raise awareness of LGBT issues. How will this role be resourced and what powers will be given to the national health adviser towards making progress on health inequalities faced by LGBT people?

The national LGBT survey referenced Stonewall’s findings that more than 25% of trans respondents who were in a relationship in the past year had been subject to domestic abuse. What are the Government doing specifically to support trans people experiencing such abuse? I say again that we welcome the plan, and we look forward to working with the Minister to make sure that all the recommendations are implemented.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. When I first started in my role as Equalities Minister, I did not believe that conversion therapy existed. I thought that the like of what happened to people like Alan Turing was gone, only to find that it still exists. One upshot of the survey is to highlight that it does exist. It exists not just in some of the settings where we think it exists but in all sorts of settings which affect all government departments. In terms of how exactly we are going to end it, we have deliberately not been specific, because it will require a series of both legislative measures and non-legislative measures. The proposals will be outlined in due course.

The national adviser will explore the areas where health inequalities exist for LGBT people in our society and will advise the Government and other providers on those inequalities. In terms of money, we have put in £4.5 million to help us deliver the action plan. On trans abuse, the noble Baroness is absolutely right—trans people appear to be the most unhappy of our LGBT friends in society and to face the worst abuse. This abuse is not just from people in the street; it might be from inappropriate healthcare, in school settings, or in the workplace. We are well aware of trans abuse, and many of these things have been at the forefront of our minds with the refreshed hate action plan, which we will be publishing soon.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I very much welcome this piece of work. I had a chance this morning only to skim the surface of it, but it represents a huge amount of research, and I hope the Government will make that research available to academics and other researchers as quickly as possible, as it is immensely valuable. I will ask the Minister two simple questions. Regarding the NHS post, in discussions with other people this morning when we got the report, the general consensus was that having one person try to represent the whole community would be rather difficult. However, the key issue is the training, knowledge and understanding of staff in the NHS. Who within the NHS will have responsibility for overseeing the change envisaged in this report, which is very badly needed?

Secondly, on conversion therapy, what plans do the Government have to engage faith groups in the work they are planning to undertake? Faith groups are often where these practices are found.

Finally, on inclusive sex and relationship education, I know that the Government are keen for this to come about as it is the key to so many of the issues that have been highlighted. Can the Minister tell us when the Government are likely to bring forward proposals?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for those questions and I was pleased to see her at the launch event this morning. She is absolutely right that out of this huge survey—the biggest in the world ever, I believe—there is loads to be gleaned through the analysis we can do, and I think that we have probably only just begun that process. But it must not be just a survey that is done and put on a shelf, and I am absolutely certain that it will not be. I am sure there are stakeholders all over the world who will be interested in our survey findings.

On the national adviser who will oversee the change in the NHS, I suspect—though those proposals have probably not yet been worked through definitively—it will be somebody who can see at a strategic level just where those gaps lie, given some of the feedback they will get from LGBT patients and users of the health service. I do not necessarily think a clinician will be needed, but someone who can take a strategic look at how the NHS operates and propose changes and provide advice to practices.

The noble Baroness is right to bring up conversion therapy and faith groups. Interestingly, however, it is not just faith groups who use it—I was shocked to learn that. In all this, there is a balance to be had. I strongly believe we should respect people’s right to practise their faith. Similarly, they should respect people’s right to live the authentic life they wish they lead. As I said, there is a balance to be struck, and there is an engagement to be had across the various sectors, including faith groups, and that is how we intend to proceed.

My right honourable friend Justine Greening announced that sex and relationships education would be made mandatory—I think from September, but I am not certain, so I shall leave a question mark there. If it is not September, I will write to the noble Baroness to let her know.

[Lord Smith of Finsbury (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I give a very warm welcome to the Statement from the noble Baroness regarding the survey that the Government have carried out and the action plan that will now be put in place. Embedded in it is the valuable recognition that far too much discrimination and hostility are still faced by LGBT people across the country. However, I urge the Government to take one further step, which is to ensure that full equality becomes available to LGBT people across the entirety of the United Kingdom, including in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord. Clearly, we engage regularly with the devolved Administration but matters such as this are for that Administration. Looking at how far southern Ireland has moved towards equality just in the last couple of years, I have high hopes for our friends in the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I echo the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Smith. We may think that there is equality in this nation and look at the progress we have made, but there is not equality. With the World Cup now taking place, it is significant that a professional footballer has yet to come out and identify as gay, unlike the position in rugby and other sports.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is always quite mystifying to me that rugby has been so open, inclusive and supportive of rugby players who have come out, mainly, as gay and that football has not. In fact, football seems to remain a hostile sport for LGBT people, and I hope that that will change soon.

Registration of Marriage Bill [HL]

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 29th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall not hold up the Committee. As a Methodist, and having sat through Second Reading and heard the right reverend Prelate this morning, I just wanted to say how grateful I am for a masterclass in how the Church of England operates.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for his continued support in bringing forward changes to the way in which marriages are registered. Under present legislation, the marriage register entry provides space for the name of the father of each of the couple to be recorded but not that of the mother, and that has been the case since 1837.

This situation is outdated and it is widely accepted that changes are required to address this inequality. There has been growing pressure both from within Parliament and from the public for reform. For example, an online petition attracted in excess of 70,000 signatures. However, it should be noted that when deciding how the marriage entry should be updated we will need to ensure that we allow for all the different family circumstances in society today—for example, same-sex parents.

The most efficient and economical way to introduce these changes is to reform the way in which marriages are registered in England and Wales by moving to a “schedule”- based system similar to that in place for marriages and civil partnerships in Scotland and Northern Ireland and for civil partnerships in England and Wales.

The basis of a schedule system is that the couple sign a marriage schedule instead of the marriage register book. Couples will still be able to have that all-important traditional photo taken after the ceremony with their witnesses, but instead of signing the marriage register they will sign the marriage schedule with their witnesses. The schedule will contain all the information to be entered into the electronic marriage register maintained by the Registrar-General.

Those marrying in the Church of England or Church in Wales will still be able to marry by ecclesiastical preliminaries—for example, the publishing of banns or the issue of a common licence. Where ecclesiastical preliminaries are used, the member of the clergy will issue a “marriage document” similar to the schedule issued by the superintendent registrar, which will be returned to—

[Lord Cormack]

Why cannot we use the traditional word, “register”? Why do we have to go in for “schedule”?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that it is because we are dealing here with the legality rather than the tradition. I understand my noble friend’s point, but I would hope that such a small but important matter did not derail this important Bill. I am not for a moment suggesting that that is my noble friend’s intention; I understand his point.

Moving from a paper-based system to registration in an electronic register will facilitate the updating of the marriage entry to include both parents of each of the couple without having to replace all register books and it would introduce savings of £33.8 million over 10 years. The changes which the right reverend Prelate seeks are not controversial and have received a lot of cross-party support, hence the support in the Chamber today.

As the Bill contains delegated powers. I advised at Second Reading that the Home Office would produce and publish illustrative regulations prior to Committee to demonstrate to noble Lords how the powers in Clause 1 would be used. I can confirm that the draft regulations were made available in the Library of the House on 17 April.

I must emphasise that the regulations are an early draft and further drafting is required. We would welcome any comments from noble Lords on the content. It is our aim to be transparent during the process of amending the Marriage Act 1949 as we move towards the introduction of the schedule system.

We will continue to work with all key stakeholders, including the Church of England, in developing the policy. I will make further drafts of the regulations available in the Library in due course. I assure noble Lords that the changes to the Marriage Act will be made using the affirmative resolution procedure, ensuring they are debated in both Houses of Parliament and providing parliamentary oversight.

My noble friend Lord Blencathra expressed concern at Second Reading about the use of delegated powers in the Bill. To address those concerns, I can confirm that Home Office officials have been working with the right reverend Prelate to make technical amendments to Clauses 1 and 2 to limit the use of delegated powers to introduce these changes and to provide noble Lords with some reassurance as to how the powers are intended to be used.

The scope of the enabling language in Clause 1 will be narrowed to reflect the policy intent of the Bill to replace the current paper-based system with an electronic schedule-based system. Amendments required to primary legislation will be limited to the Marriage Act 1949. The broad power in Clause 1(2), which gives the Secretary of State the power to amend, repeal or revoke provisions in other Acts of Parliament, will be removed. As the right reverend Prelate has already explained, it is also proposed to include a sunset clause in the Bill limiting the power for the Secretary of State to make regulations which amend primary legislation to a period of three years beginning on the day on which the regulations are first made.

Concern has been raised that the powers in Clause 2 may delegate matters currently provided for in primary legislation. Amendments to Clause 2 will limit the scope to making regulations under Section 74(1) of the Marriage Act. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the House that these regulations are intended only to supplement the current provisions in the Act.

I know that noble Lords recognise the importance of taking these changes forward to modernise the process of registering marriages, and I hope that the amendments made to the Bill will provide some reassurance to them of the value we place on parliamentary scrutiny throughout the legislative process.

I want finally to answer a question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. When the Bill was drafted, the policy was not so advanced and the powers in the Bill provided flexibility. We have been working closely with Home Office officials to develop policy further, which has allowed us to make these changes.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I am grateful to the Minister for her summary and for responding to the two points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. More importantly, I should point out that part of the problem in the early stages, where I have been grateful to have advice from all sorts of people, is my sheer personal ineptitude in understanding what I might have been proposing. Somebody in my position without legal training does not always understand the breadth of what is offered. I am sorry about that. We have been grateful for the clarity with which the committee pointed out some of the implications. That is why we worked hard to try to get through this very simple legislation.

There is clamour from all over the place for this very simple, focused change, particularly from young women, who are horrified and astonished that it has not happened already. What caught me by surprise was a number of genealogists writing to me to point out that we are out of step with many countries and that, over the decades, this change will make a huge difference to people’s ability to understand their background. I hope that we can fully support it.

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[Lord Rosser]

I shall just add, in light of what the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, has just said, that my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester is seeking assurances on this point, as I understand it, and I sincerely hope that those assurances can be given.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I hope that I can now give those assurances. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, because he distinguished very much between the argument for another day, which is about same-sex marriages in churches, and the very important point of children of same-sex parents on the register: it is not called the register, of course, but we will probably continue to call it the register.

As the noble Lord pointed out, the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 made provision for couples of the same sex to enter into a marriage. However, under Sections 3 and 4 of the Act, the provisions to solemnise marriages of same-sex couples do not apply to marriages taking place in the Church of England. As with all other religious ceremonies, there is no compulsion on an individual to solemnise a marriage where the reason is that it concerns the marriage of a same-sex couple.

The provisions in the Bill do not seek to make any changes to marriage preliminaries, or to how or where marriages can be solemnised; it simply seeks to change how marriages are registered, moving from a paper-based system of registration to an electronic register. The electronic system of registering marriages will apply to all marriages, irrespective of whether the couple are of the opposite sex or of the same sex.

I have just received a note containing the answer to the point made by my noble friend about the move to a schedule system not creating differences between the registration process for opposite-sex and same-sex couples. To clarify, by the names of the parents it will say “Mother/Father/Parent” for both parents. That will apply to children of opposite-sex couples, same-sex couples and whatever we have to come.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for clarifying those matters. It only remains for me to say, in response to the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Cashman, that of course the wider debate about the nature of marriage is going on right across society, but particularly in the Church of England and in other churches. That will continue. That, of course, is not the focus of the Bill today; that will come back at other points, there will be all sorts of discussions in the General Synod and so on, and they will continue. I am grateful to the noble Lords for stating their view on that, but this is particularly about registration and therefore I hope that we can give this the green light and the go-ahead to speed through.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, for securing this debate. He told me he had secured it and thought I might not be very happy, but I am very happy that he secured the debate as it gives us another chance to debate this very important issue that I know is of such importance to noble Lords. Parliament’s only PCC, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, participated in this debate and other noble Lords have spoken. It has been quite a wide-ranging debate—necessarily so—and across the Chamber views have been expressed on a variety of issues relating to the role and responsibilities of police and crime commissioners.

Since the introduction of PCCs in 2012—40 of them in total, as the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, pointed out—everyone now has a direct say in policing in their area through their locally elected PCC. Police and crime commissioners have brought real local accountability to how chief constables and their forces perform and are working hard to ensure that their local communities have a stronger voice in policing, as my noble friends Lady Seccombe and Lord Wasserman pointed out. I note the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, about his PCC. Others may have other points to make about theirs, but they operate in the full gaze of the media and must justify their record to the public every four years via the ballot box, as my noble friend Lord Wasserman pointed out.

I was very glad to hear from my noble friends Lord Wasserman and Lady Seccombe about some of the good work that is going on in their areas, and I have seen at first hand what the PCC, who is the noble Lord, Lord Bach, is doing in Leicestershire. This is in stark contrast to the police authorities—I must declare an interest as I sat on a police authority—which were not particularly visible and were not felt to be particularly accountable. I note the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Armstrong and Lord Scriven, about their return, but on a personal level I would not want to see it.

The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, made a point about Ministers stepping in to deal with the lack of democracy in the PCC system. As they are directly elected, PCCs are directly accountable to their electorate, and local communities will have their say at the ballot box when the time comes. Police and crime panels have the appropriate powers to scrutinise the actions and decisions of the PCCs effectively. For instance, panels have a statutory power to request information from PCCs, should that be necessary.

At the 2016 PCC national elections, 9 million votes were cast, and PCCs are currently receiving more than 7,000 pieces of correspondence from the general public every month.

PCCs are also providing an impetus to reform. As we have heard, PCCs such as Vera Baird, whom I have also met, are proposing innovative solutions to delivering policing more effectively. PCCs are taking a lead role in driving collaboration between forces, which is a very welcome change, and with other blue-light partners to deliver more effective services and better value for money for the taxpayer. I have seen that in Greater Manchester and in Leicestershire with the noble Lord, Lord Bach.

As was recognised by the Home Affairs Select Committee in its March 2016 report, PCCs are here to stay and their introduction has worked well to date. I also note the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, which I have seen time and time again, that their role has not been politicised. In fact, I have seen PCCs not afraid to challenge their own political party on some of the things that are happening. The police remain independent, and that is very pleasing to see.

A number of noble Lords raised questions concerning the Government’s role in relation to the powers of PCCs. PCCs have been elected by the public to hold chief constables and the force to account, making the police answerable to the communities they serve. The police are, rightly, operationally independent of government. It would not be right for government to intervene in or influence the exercise of a PCC’s functions.

I must reiterate that the exercise of a PCC’s powers in relation to the commission of any specific inquiry must be a matter for the PCC in question. The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, talked about holding the force to account. Section 36 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act places a duty on the chief constable to provide to the PCC any information necessary to hold the force to account.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, made a bit of a side point about drugs. I would expect that from her, as she does things very skilfully. She made a point about drug users being made into criminals by the police. The police and, certainly, the Government primarily want people to recover from drug dependency, as opposed to wanting to make criminals of them.

My noble friend Lord Wasserman asked a very interesting question on recall. It was at the forefront of discussions some years ago, but it is good to hear him bringing it back. There is definitely a debate to be had. However, extending the policy of recall beyond MPs to other elected officers requires careful consideration, and we would need to work with others in elected offices to understand the precedent that might be set.

My noble friend Lady Seccombe talked about neighbourhood policing and working with residents and communities. It is such a valuable aspect of local policing. Whether it is in Salisbury or London, these officers play a vital role in keeping us safe every day. There are many examples of the great work they do.

The noble Lord, Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick, talked about the police being inclusive, the question of maintaining operational independence and the context of unjust and unfair policing towards BME communities. He made a very important point about the diversity of the police. It is important in policing all communities inclusively. I am pleased to say that the proportion of officers from a non-white ethnic group has been increasing in the past decade. I agree with the noble Lord that, to be effective, a force must mirror the community it serves.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, talked about diversity of PCCs. It is something that all political parties and none would support in terms of engaging people not only in the policing function but in the political process of choosing their PCC. In 2016, 9 million votes were cast, which was a 67% increase in the number of votes cast in the election in 2012, so the turnout is not high but is on a very good upward trajectory.

The noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, talked about the powers of HMIC. While it might be possible for the PPC or the Home Secretary to commission HMICFRS to review whether an investigation was conducted in a way that met the standards required for policing, we do not believe that it is appropriate for the inspectorate to review all evidence gathered and conclusions reached. On the point of the inspection of Wiltshire, it has consistently reached overall “Good”, although I can understand that noble Lords might not entirely agree with that point.

The noble Lords, Lord Blair of Boughton, Lord Hastings, and others, talked about strategic reviews of the police as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Blair, pointed out that the last royal commission was in 1962. However, a number of key reports have led to police reform subsequently, including the Scarman report in 1981, Sheehy in 1992 and, of course, the Macpherson report of 1999.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, talked about addressing the issue of police funding reductions. Prior to the police funding settlement, the Minister for Policing—I have said this at the Dispatch Box on many an occasion—spoke to every police force in England to understand the level of resource required to meet policing needs. We have provided a comprehensive funding settlement, with increasing investment of over £460 million in 2018-19. The noble Lord will recall the Home Secretary saying recently that he absolutely understands some of the pressures which the police have been under, particularly in light of events over the last year or two in terms of terrorist attacks and other things that have happened.

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, talked about the challenge posed by flawed recruitment processes, and recruiting senior police. The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, may also have mentioned that, or it may have been the noble Lord, Lord Butler—they have been a sea behind me, but it was one of them. The issue of choosing police leaders is so important. People need to be able to demonstrate both leadership and be very good in their policing role. In many ways, a career in policing should be a vocation that is attractive to the brightest and the best leaders in society. The Government want to see police ranks opened up, with flexible entry and exit paths to encourage diversity of experience.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, asked what the police were doing on moped crime. It is clearly a concern, and I assure the noble Lord that the Government have worked with the police, industry and other partners to develop a comprehensive action plan on what is a very serious problem in our attempt to keep the public safe.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked about the process for complaints against the PCC. Non-serious complaints go to police and crime panels but, as I am sure the noble Lord knows, when complaints are of a serious and criminal nature, they will be directed to the IOPC.

Moving on to the issue of Operation Conifer and the PCC for Wiltshire and Swindon, I have heard of concerns today, as I have heard previously, about the refusal of the locally elected PCC to commission an inquiry into Operation Conifer, which investigated, as noble Lords know, claims of child sexual abuse made against the late former Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath. I understand the strength of feeling in this House, which I have heard expressed many times. I fully recognise the desire of those who knew Sir Edward personally to protect his reputation when he is no longer able to do so himself. I understand the disappointment at the PCC’s decision not to commission an inquiry. On the point of enough funding to commission an inquiry, Wiltshire has £17.9 million in reserves.

However, that does not change the Government’s position. It is our view that it is rightly a decision for the PCC and that he has the necessary powers and, as I have just said, the necessary funding. This concerns an investigation led by Wiltshire Police into a past resident of the county. The high profile of that individual does not of itself make this a national issue, but I understand the point about it being of national interest. The Government have no plans to launch an inquiry into how this investigation was conducted. It is still open to the locally elected PCC to do so himself, but it would not be appropriate for the Government to step in simply because he has chosen not to.

It is extremely important at this point to remind ourselves that Wiltshire Police’s own report strongly emphasised that no inference of guilt should be drawn from the fact that Sir Edward, had he still been alive, would have been interviewed under caution in respect of a small number of allegations. I can see the sensitivity and concern that those words have garnered. The purpose of such an interview would have been to gain his account, which would have been as important as other evidence gathered as part of the wider investigation. Because he was being accused of an offence, it would have been important for Sir Edward to enjoy the same protections as anyone else in that position and to benefit from an interview under caution. By doing so, the police are able to advance their investigations, and suspects’ rights are protected. Every day people are interviewed under caution and no action is ever taken against them. However, I can understand the feeling in this case, but as the police rightly noted, an interview cannot and should not be interpreted as a sign of guilt. We need to remember that.

We also need to remember that only a court can determine whether someone is guilty and that when an accused person is deceased and cannot present their own evidence to the court, this is not possible. There is no guarantee, unfortunately, that an independent review of Operation Conifer would provide a definitive answer that noble Lords so understandably seek.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked whether Operation Conifer was referred to the PCC panel for scrutiny, which is a good question. Of course, PCC panels have a role in challenging, scrutinising and supporting each police and crime commissioner. I do not know the answer in the specific case as to whether it did, but it is something that I can take back and ask.

The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, asked about IICSA, and, of course, the PCC for Wiltshire is of the opinion that IICSA—the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse—is the correct commissioning body for such a review. I must reiterate, and I think the noble Lord was alluding to this, that IICSA was established to consider the extent to which institutions in England and Wales have failed in their duty to protect children from sexual abuse and exploitation. It operates independently of government and, within its terms of reference, decides what it investigates and how. It would be inappropriate for the Government to seek to influence those decisions. I think noble Lords are clear—certainly I am—on IICSA’s role, which is distinct from the role of Operation Conifer.

The Henriques report was commissioned by the Metropolitan Police, not the Government, so the recommendations are largely for the College of Policing which sets the standards for policing. We are very grateful for the lessons it has taught us about such investigations. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, made the point about victims. There has been much discussion recently about the approach the police take to allegations of sexual offences and abuse. The College of Policing is currently considering the recommendations of the Henriques report and will announce its response in due course.

Of course, great effort has gone into building public trust in police investigations into the very sensitive and distressing matter of sexual abuse. It is important that this continues. Starting an investigation from a position of doubt is unlikely to encourage victims to come forward. Existing guidance says that when an allegation is received police should believe the account and record it as a crime unless there is credible evidence at the point the allegation is made that determines that no crime has been committed. In this case it should be recorded as an incident.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Can the noble Lord indulge me? I am literally at time and I implore noble Lords not to stop me from talking. Perhaps the noble Lord and I can talk afterwards.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether PCCs can give directions to challenge police constables and, specifically, whether they can set up their own reviews. Our view is that PCCs can establish a review into the conduct of an operation in order to assess the efficiency and effectiveness of the force.

Finally—and I am definitely testing noble Lords’ patience—there is the point about the Home Office being corrupt. Thousands of people work in the Home Office every day. I come across many of them. In every walk of life, most people do their job with great enthusiasm and professionalism. We will always get members of staff who stray from that, but to go as far as saying that the Home Office is corrupt I would strongly deny. I conclude by thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate.

Immigration (Guidance on Detention of Vulnerable Persons) Regulations and the Detention Centre (Amendment) Rules 2018

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for securing this debate. I want to say at the outset that I appreciate his insight into this issue of immigration detention and the concern that he has consistently shown for the welfare of detainees. I also thank other noble Lords from all sides of the House for their contributions.

We put significant effort into encouraging individuals to comply with the Immigration Rules and to support those with no right to remain to leave the UK voluntarily. Unfortunately, a minority of individuals refuse to comply, and detention can be a necessary and proportionate tool for enforcing their return.

As I have said, detention is used sparingly, and we operate a strong presumption in favour of not detaining. At any one time, of those people with no lawful basis of stay in the UK and who are liable to removal, 95% are managed in the community and not in detention. The number of individuals whom we detain has decreased. In the year ending March 2018, there was an 8% reduction in the number of people entering detention compared with the previous year.

For every individual detained, there must be a realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable timescale. As part of the decision to detain, there should be an assessment as to the likely duration of detention. In addition, alternatives to detention will have been considered, or will have failed, in each case.

The majority of people are held for short periods. Ninety-one per cent of those leaving detention in the year ending March 2018 were detained for less than four months and 64% for 28 days or less.

As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned, the welfare of vulnerable people in immigration detention is of the utmost importance to the Home Office. Where it is necessary to detain people to remove them, a number of safeguards are in place. One of these is the adults at risk in immigration detention policy, referred to by the noble Lord. Others include the presence of healthcare staff in all immigration removal centres and residential short-term holding facilities; a comprehensive suite of published guidance and operating procedures to govern conditions in centres and support the well-being of detainees; regular reviews of detention by senior officers to ensure that detention remains appropriate; and independent judicial oversight of immigration detention.

The adults at risk policy, implemented in September 2016, provides a vital safeguard. It was a key part of our response to Stephen Shaw’s review of the welfare of vulnerable people in immigration detention commissioned by the Prime Minister when she was Home Secretary. Under this policy, vulnerable people are detained, or their detention continued, only when the immigration considerations in their case outweigh the evidence of vulnerability—the balance that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, talked about. Detention decisions are made on the basis of all available evidence. Cases are reviewed at regular intervals and whenever new evidence comes to light in respect of removability and vulnerability.

That brings me to the new definition of torture in the context of immigration detention. I do not think that anyone would dispute that victims of torture—and, indeed, all those identified as vulnerable—should be considered to be particularly at risk of harm in immigration detention. But it is not, and has never been, government policy that such individuals should never be detained. There is no absolute exclusion from detention for any category of person. However, for individuals considered to be at risk, the policy strengthens the presumption against detention. It carefully balances an individual’s vulnerability considerations against the immigration considerations so that detention is considered in individual cases only when immigration considerations outweigh the risk identified.

The way in which torture is defined in the context of immigration detention has a long history. We currently use the EO definition established in case law in 2013. This is a broad definition which led to some cases being inappropriately considered as torture, thereby diverting attention from the most vulnerable. As a result, the Home Office brought into force the United Nations Convention against Torture definition of torture, with the introduction of the adults at risk in immigration detention policy in 2016. Following a judicial review of the policy, and as an interim relief measure, the High Court ordered the Home Office to revert to the EO definition, and we did so in December 2016. The court subsequently declared the UNCAT definition to be unlawful when used for the purposes of immigration detention. However, it declared that the adults at risk policy was inherently sound and lawful.

In addition, the court further stated that the EO definition was deficient for the purposes of immigration detention. The judge set out his carefully considered view of what a rational definition should look like in this context, taking into account the impact of acts of harm on those in detention. He came to this view having heard a wealth of expert evidence, including that provided by experts associated with the litigants, Medical Justice. We have used the judge’s clearly expressed view as the basis for the definition set out in the statutory instruments laid before Parliament on 27 March 2018. In answer to the question “Why can’t we withdraw the SIs?”, we cannot withdraw them and revert to the old definition of torture as laid out in EO as that was judged to be deficient for the purposes of immigration detention. It was too broad and led to some cases being inappropriately considered, diverting attention from the most vulnerable, as I have said.

The court also said that the broad safeguarding provisions were not effective and the guidance needed to be amended. The statutory instrument bringing into force the revised statutory guidance meets this requirement.

Noble Lords have said that the Home Office should have waited for Stephen Shaw’s follow-up report to be published before making any amendments to the definition of torture. Let me be clear: the changes we are making are to implement the court’s judgment in full, with the reasonable timescales it set out. Until Mr Shaw’s report has been formally published, I cannot discuss its contents. However, I can say that officials kept Mr Shaw’s team informed of the work they were doing to implement this new definition while they engage with the NGOs on this issue.

[Lord Rosser]

In the light of the Minister’s comment that officials had informed Stephen Shaw of what they were doing, is she saying, or seeking to imply, that in fact his re-review has given the Government’s proposals in these statutory instruments a clean bill of health? If that is what it has done, why not publish it now?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will get on to when it will be published. I am simply saying that officials kept the team informed of the work they were doing to implement the new definition while they were engaging with NGOs. We will carefully consider all of Stephen Shaw’s recommendations, as we did last time, and take them into account when we review detention centre rules, including the operation of the rule 35 reporting mechanism later this year. We will publish his report with a full government response before the House rises in July, in answer to noble Lords’ questions.

As I said, the current imperative is to ensure that, in the light of the court’s very clearly expressed view, we implement a lawful and effective definition of torture for the purpose of the adults at risk policy. There is no reason to delay this. It is separate to, and not dependent on, Mr Shaw’s report.

It has been suggested that the new definition of torture in the context of immigration detention is too complex to be applied by caseworkers and doctors. I do not accept this. It fully reflects the guidance handed down by the High Court. The court, in turn, had the benefit of a large amount of expert and clinical evidence, much of which was submitted by the litigants, Medical Justice. So there is no reason to believe that caseworkers and doctors will find the definition of torture set out in the statutory instruments too complex.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked whether the consultation with NGOs was sufficient. There was no legal obligation to run a consultation, but officials willingly engaged with them on the definition of torture and on caseworker guidance and training.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked—

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I think the Minister might be getting us a bit mixed up, because the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, spoke more about consultation. What she wanted to know, and therefore what I will ask now, is: what was the response? That was not made clear in the Explanatory Memorandum. The response to us was that the organisations are very unhappy about this, which is why this Motion has been brought this evening.

[Baroness Hamwee]

Perhaps I may come back on that. I quoted the paragraph on the consultation outcome because the implication of the Home Office saying it has considered comments from the NGOs is that there is no difference between them, or at least nothing substantial, and that we should not be worried about whether the NGOs made critical comments—which we have discovered they did.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I take both noble Baronesses’ point. We did engage with the NGOs. What are the differences between us? I will get back to the noble Baronesses and place a copy of the letter in the Library in due course, because I do not have the information on what the feedback was.

The noble Baroness asked about powerlessness being confined to physical situations. It is also a consideration in cases where no physical harm takes place, so it could apply in a situation in which, for example, an individual is subjected to psychological abuse.

Perhaps I may conclude with a word on training. Over the past six weeks, officials have delivered an extensive training programme for caseworkers making detention decisions and for healthcare staff based in immigration removal centres and residential short-term holding facilities. One thing that NGOs have been able to do is observe that training and provide feedback, which the trainers have taken on board.

On the broader question, I hope that both noble Baronesses will allow me to get back to them on that. New and comprehensive guidance will be provided for caseworkers and healthcare staff. I hope that we will be able to provide caseworkers with the guidance and the knowledge that they need to make consistent and fair decisions, which is what we all seek. We will keep the guidance under review.

The Government are committed to discharging their duty to control immigration effectively and to secure our borders, but I can assure noble Lords that of course at the same time we are absolutely committed to the welfare of all detainees and to protecting the victims of torture and other vulnerable people in immigration detention. Those aims are not incompatible, and it is to these complementary ends that we are implementing the court’s judgment now.

Airports: Border Force

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 26th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my declaration of interests.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, visitor numbers to the UK are increasing and we expect record levels this year. Despite the increase, the latest data shows that we are meeting published service standards while maintaining the security of the UK border. We are continually seeking to improve our performance. The Border Force is taking steps to ensure that passengers are dealt with as quickly as possible by investing in technology and increasing the availability of staff at the busiest times of the day.

[Lord Blunkett]

My Lords, so far this year, non-EEA passengers at Heathrow border control have waited up to two hours 45 minutes, and EEA nationals up to 55 minutes. Yesterday, targets were missed for almost eight hours between 1 pm and 8.45 pm. For those who believe, as I think we all do, that we will have to be even more of a global trading nation, and for those who want to welcome both tourists and visitors, this is surely a disaster. Does the Minister agree with me that, tragically, this is a stark example of a hostile environment?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, last year, 97.5% of passengers were cleared within the service level agreement, which is 25 minutes for EEA passengers and 45 minutes for non-EEA passengers. Far from being a hostile environment, the border should be a compliant environment, and everyone passing through it should comply with immigration standards. However, we anticipate increases in travel and are making preparations for that.

[The Duke of Somerset (CB)]

My Lords, many of the e-gates, which are meant to make things quicker and stop these delays, are often out of action at London airports. Why is that, and when will they all be back in action?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There are 254 e-gates operating across the country, including the juxtaposed controls. E-gates respond to the patterns of people-flow across the border. Although some of the e-gates are sometimes closed, one finds that when demand increases, they re-open. That is a wise way of managing traffic across the border.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, further to what the Minister has just said, is it not true that there needs to be a certain number of immigration officers per e-gate and that, in fact, the e-gates are not all open when they should be because of a lack of staff? What discussions have the Government had with Heathrow Airport Ltd about increasing the number of Border Force staff at the airport, bearing in mind that the Border Force is struggling with two runways, let alone three?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that there are immigration officers at e-gates and that e-gates are sometimes closed but, as I explained, this is in relation to the projected flow of passengers across the border, and sometimes if a plane has been delayed, it can create congestion at the border. We have 250 e-gates, but we are investing in staff at the border in the coming year.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The Minister said, “We are making preparations for that”. Is that what she meant by her last statement, or is there more to report to the House?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I anticipated that Brexit might come into this, as it has into every debate we have had for the last few months, so I said that in anticipation of projected increases in demand across the border, and to announce that we will be having a nationwide recruitment campaign of up to 1,000 further officers.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, it has been drawn to my attention that diplomats from the Caribbean, such as governors-general, are not allowed to pass through the diplomatic channels at airports. Can the Minister explain why that is, and what directive needs to be given to immigration staff at airports to change this unwelcome behaviour?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can certainly take that back, because I do not know the direct answer. That comment was made to me some weeks ago, but I shall take it back to the department and get a suitable reply for the noble Baroness.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, the lengthening and continuing delays at Heathrow for arriving passengers to clear immigration and passport control are at the very least causing reputational damage to the airport and the airlines affected. This has financial consequences for them as well as for our economy. Since the Government have not met—and are apparently still not meeting—all their service level targets on waiting times for passengers arriving at Heathrow, what level of compensation will be provided by the Government to the operator of Heathrow and the airlines involved? If no compensation is going to be provided by the Government, why not, bearing in mind that in other areas of activity, firms providing services for the Government would be liable to penalties for failing to deliver on their service level targets?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not sure. I do not know the answer to whether there are actual financial penalties in terms of compensation from the Government for failing to meet service level standards. What I can say is that over 95% of passengers arriving at Heathrow are, in fact, dealt with through those service level agreements.

Brexit: Identity Cards

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have assessed the value of introducing identity cards following Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, in 2010 the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition decided to scrap the identity card scheme and the associated national identity register because it was expensive and represented a substantial erosion of civil liberties. The Government have no plans to revisit that decision.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, a very interesting question was asked on 3 May by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who is a convert to ID cards. Recognising the possible difficulties post Brexit for unionists in accepting a de facto border with the rest of the UK at Northern Irish ports, would the introduction of biometric ID cards, across the UK—which includes Northern Ireland—further emphasise their identity and entitlements as UK citizens and help alleviate unionists’ concerns by underscoring their national identity within the United Kingdom? In a way, passports in Northern Ireland will not always be able to do that in the future.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Question. The status of Northern Ireland’s citizens will remain the same post Brexit and they will still have access to the same identity documents. The Government are committed to protecting the Belfast agreement. One of the successes of that agreement, and the peace process, was to protect the ability of the people of Northern Ireland to identify as British, Irish or both.

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)]

My Lords, the last time this question came up, last year, we were told that this was 20th century stuff, not 21st century. I have never personally met a police officer who does not feel that identity cards would be more than helpful. I am of an age to remember them during the war. There is another factor which all in this House are interested in. Last week, the Office for National Statistics brought out the results of their “surveys” about what the future will be. It would undoubtedly consider that identity cards would be a huge improvement in enabling us to forecast the future more accurately. That would be in all our interests: might the Minister consider it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for that question, and for forewarning me of it. I have talked about cost and civil liberties but, in addition to the things which my noble friend talked about, I draw attention to the fact that an increasing number of transactions and interactions, including the majority of identity frauds now occur online, where documents are far less effective in proving identity. I will take back what my noble friend said, but we should recognise that there is now a thriving market in fraud with actual, physical documents.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, in 2005 experts at the London School of Economics estimated that the introduction of an ID card scheme would cost up to £18 billion. Taking account of inflation and the total absence of any Brexit dividend, does the Minister agree that £26 billion would be better spent on the National Health Service?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The quite swingeing costs were certainly a consideration when the coalition Government decided to scrap identity cards or take them no further. I do not know about the £20 billion figure, but abolishing the scheme saved the taxpayer at the time £86 million and removed the need for a total investment of £835 million. What the Government choose to spend the money on will be a collective matter for the Government.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, this is not a question about identity but identification. Is it not quaint that we still have people who imagine that ID cards are a threat to civil liberties, who walk around with mobile phones, which constantly give away far more information than any ID card I have ever heard of? When will the Government recognise that being able to show who one is is seriously important, matters particularly for people who may not be entirely sure about their place of birth, and is necessary for people in Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope that I have just addressed the Northern Ireland point. However, I totally concur with the noble Baroness that with mobile phones and on forums people give away information about their personal identification that they would never dream of telling the state or their banks. That is why I pointed out the more serious development of online fraud and the importance of proving identity in a lot of different situations. Whether it is proving your age in a nightclub or proving the right to rent or work, they all need different solutions.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Has the Minister noticed, over the period of time when questions on the subject have been repeatedly raised—by, to his great credit, my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours—that the mood in this Chamber, if not more widely, has tended more towards recognising the necessity of ID cards? Has she noticed that no one these days defends it on grounds of principle—not even the Liberal Democrats—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not blame either of them. However, I do not disagree at all with the noble Lord when he says that the issue of proof of ID and identity assurance is becoming more and more important. I am making the point that different identity assurance proofs are required in different situations. One would not expect to go into a nightclub and have to prove one’s immigration’s status, and similarly, in other situations you might not have to prove other things. Therefore we are trying to get to both a proportionate and reasonable proof of identity.

EU Settlement Scheme

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Immigration Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I should like to make a Statement about the new settlement scheme for resident EU citizens and their family members.

Securing the rights of citizens has been our priority in negotiations with the European Union. We have delivered on this commitment and reached an agreement with the EU which was published in March as a draft legal text. This guarantees the rights of EU citizens living in the UK and of UK nationals living in the EU. Under this agreement, EU citizens living in the UK, along with their family members, will be able to stay and continue their lives here, with the same access to work, study, benefits and public services that they enjoy now. Close family members living overseas will be able to join them here in future.

EU citizens make a huge contribution to our economy and to our society. They are our friends, family and colleagues, and we want them to stay. I am therefore delighted to be publishing today further details about the EU settlement scheme. This will provide the basis for EU citizens resident here and their family members to obtain their new UK immigration status, consistent with the draft withdrawal agreement.

I will place in the House Library a statement of intent setting out in detail how the scheme will work, and how simple and straightforward it will be. The document includes a draft of the Immigration Rules for the scheme. We will engage with our stakeholders on the details set out in the statement of intent. These include the user groups we have established to help us develop the scheme, involving EU citizens’ representatives, embassies, employers and others. We look forward to hearing their views and will make improvements where we can.

It will be straightforward for EU citizens residing in the UK to obtain status. If they have lived here continuously for five years, they will be eligible for settled status. Those who have lived here for less than five years will generally be granted pre-settled status and will be able to apply for settled status once they reach the five-year point. Applicants will not need to show that they meet other detailed requirements of current free movement rules. This means, for example, that stay-at-home parents, retired people and students can all be eligible.

Irish citizens enjoy a right of residence in the UK that is not reliant on our membership of the EU. The Government are committed to protecting these rights and are working closely with Ireland to maintain these bilateral arrangements for our respective citizens. Irish citizens will not need to apply for status under the scheme but may elect to do so if they wish. Their family members who are not Irish or British citizens will be able to obtain status under the scheme without the Irish citizen doing so.

Negotiations on similar agreements on citizens’ rights with the non-EU European Economic Area states—Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway—and Switzerland are progressing well. While the details of those agreements are being finalised, the statement of intent confirms that we intend that the settlement scheme will be open to other EEA citizens and Swiss citizens—and their family members—on a similar basis as for EU citizens.

The scheme set out in the statement of intent will deliver on our commitments to a straightforward process. We are designing the online application form so that it is short, simple and user-friendly. It will be accessible by computer, tablet or smartphone. There will be assistance available for those who need it to complete the online application process. The views of the user groups on the support which may be needed by vulnerable groups will help to ensure that we make the right additional provision for them, through the involvement of community groups and others.

There will be three core criteria that people will need to meet to be granted status under the EU settlement scheme: proving their identity, showing that they are resident in the UK and declaring whether they have any criminal convictions. First, applicants will need to prove their identity and nationality. For those who wish to complete the application entirely online, there will be an app that will allow EU citizens to confirm the relevant details remotely, either using their own mobile phone or tablet or at a location established for them to use the app or to be helped to do so. Alternatively, they can send us their identity document by post and a dedicated team will check this and return it to them as soon as possible.

Secondly, we will establish that the applicant is resident in the UK and, where appropriate, their family relationship to an eligible EU citizen. Where possible the application process will help the applicant to establish their continuous residence here, and whether it amounts to the five years generally required for settled status, on an automated basis using employment and benefit records. This will keep any documentary evidence the applicant is required to provide to a minimum. We recognise that some applicants may lack such evidence in their own name for various reasons and we will work flexibly with applicants to help them evidence their continuous residence in the UK by the best means available to them.

Thirdly, we will check that the applicant is not a serious or persistent criminal and does not pose a security threat. It is right that we do what is needed to protect everyone who lives in the UK but we are not concerned here with minor offences and these provisions will not affect the overwhelming majority of EU citizens and their family members.

Throughout the process we will be looking to grant—not for reasons to refuse—and caseworkers will be able to exercise discretion in favour of the applicant, where appropriate, to minimise administrative burdens. A range of user-friendly guidance and support, including a customer contact centre, will be in place to help applicants through the process.

Subject to parliamentary consideration of changes to the fees regulations, applications will cost £65, with a reduced fee of £32.50 for children under 16. There will be no fee for children in care. The process will be particularly straightforward for those who already hold a valid permanent residence or indefinite leave to remain document, which they will be able to swap for settled status free of charge. Those granted pre-settled status will be able to apply for settled status without paying a further fee. EU citizens and their family members do not need to do anything immediately; there will be no change to their current rights until the end of the post-exit implementation period on 31 December 2020. The deadline for applications under the scheme for those resident here by the end of 2020 will be 30 June 2021.

We plan to start opening the settlement scheme later this year. I do not underestimate the scale of the challenge in successfully processing what may exceed 3.5 million applications but the Home Office already issues around 7 million passports and 3 million visas each year, so processing applications on the scale required is not new to us. As is now standard for the launch of new services in government, there will be a private beta phase from the summer to enable us to test the system and processes, followed by a phased rollout from late 2018 so we can test them at scale and ensure that they work effectively. The scheme will be open fully by 30 March 2019.

The statement of intent I have published today marks an important point in our preparations for the EU Settlement Scheme, which will enable EU citizens and their family members to continue living here in much the same way as they do now. We have engaged with EU citizens at every stage of the development process and will continue to do so. We will also continue to expand our communications to ensure that EU citizens are aware of the scheme and how it will operate and that they are reassured that they will have plenty of time in which to apply for their new UK immigration status. The EU Settlement Scheme will provide a straightforward way of enabling those who have made their lives in the UK to stay here. We want them to do so. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank both noble Lords for their very detailed questions, which I was furiously trying to write down and answer as they asked them.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, spoke about uncertainty for EU citizens. What my right honourable friend announced today will, I hope, provide further clarity and therefore less uncertainty for EU citizens, and that is precisely what we want. I hope that EU citizens will feel that there is a clear and transparent process which makes it as easy as possible for them to obtain settled status. He asked about the White Paper. We are expecting to issue it in due course. He also asked about the estimated take-up of the scheme from EU citizens. I think that it would be sensible and logical to say that the expected take-up should relate quite closely to the number of EU citizens who are currently in the UK. We think that about 3.5 million will generally apply.

The noble Lord also asked about reciprocal arrangements. As I think noble Lords will recall, when we first started bringing forward these plans, noble Lords and Members of the other place were very keen that we should start the ball rolling in good faith, and I hope that in good faith the EU will act similarly for our citizens. He asked whether what we are doing is acceptable from an EU point of view. I can certainly say that, from the point of view of an EU citizen living in the UK, it is very acceptable. As to whether the arrangements will be acceptable to the EU, I should hope so, because we are giving their citizens the settled status that is required to live here.

I have completely mixed up all the questions, but I shall go through them as I come to them. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether our plans will change in a no-deal scenario. It is fair to say that the Prime Minister has been very clear from the beginning of this process that she wants EU citizens and their families in the UK to be able to stay. She gave a personal commitment to EU citizens in October, when she said:

“I couldn’t be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay”.


We are not anticipating failure and, as the Prime Minister set out in her Florence speech, we are confident that we can find a way forward that makes a success of this for all our people. We have a responsibility to make this change work smoothly and sensibly. We have reached an agreement with the EU guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens living in the UK and of UK nationals living in the EU, and we do not expect this to be reopened.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the criteria for status and who is eligible for the scheme. Any EU citizen and their family members residing in the UK before the end of the implementation period on 31 December 2020 will be able to apply for settled status under the EU settlement scheme. People considered to be resident in the UK will include those here before midnight on 31 December 2020 and will include those previously resident in the UK who are outside the UK on that date but who have maintained continuity of residence here.

A close family member, which includes a spouse, civil partner, durable partner, dependent child or grandchild, and dependent parent or grandparent living overseas, will be able to join an EU citizen resident here after the end of the implementation period where the relationship existed on 31 December 2020 and continues to exist when the person wishes to come to the UK. Children born or adopted after December 2020 will also be eligible for the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked how the Government came to the figures of £65 and £32.50. The current fee for a permanent residence document for EU citizens is £65, and we think that the lower fee for a child is appropriate at half the price. I must add that, for a child in care, there is no fee.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked whether this would be a repeat of Windrush. I hope that this is the complete opposite of Windrush. People will be able to establish their status, as opposed to what happened with the Windrush generation, where, over time, some people became less and less able to establish their status, even though that status was implied when they came to this country. That is why it is crucial that EU citizens apply under the scheme, so that they will be able to evidence their status in the future.

Both noble Lords asked me about criminal records checks. All applicants aged 10 and over will be checked against the UK’s national police database and watch-list, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said. Applicants aged 18 or over will also be asked about their criminal history in the UK and overseas. The assessment of suitability will be conducted on a case-by-case basis and will take account of the applicant’s conduct in the UK and overseas, including whether they have any prior criminal convictions.

Cases will be refused where the applicant has committed criminality prior to the end of the implementation period that meets the EU public policy test. Any criminality committed after the implementation period will be considered in accordance with UK deportation rules. This means that an EU citizen who, in relation to an offence committed after the end of the implementation period, is convicted and receives a custodial sentence of 12 months or more will be considered for deportation.

The other point raised was about people who had committed crimes decades ago being refused. As I have said, conduct before the end of the implementation period will be considered against UK deportation thresholds. We think this is a sensible approach and one that will not affect the overwhelming majority of EU citizens and their family members.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the consequences of not applying. It is important to take a pragmatic approach in respect of people whose individual circumstances have prevented them applying, an example of which might be a mental or physical health condition. Over the coming weeks, we will be discussing with stakeholders what assistance we can give to people who might require it.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also made a point about Irish citizens. As I said, they do not need to apply for settled status to protect their status and rights in the UK. However, the arrangements for existing close family members to join EU citizens resident in the UK are provided for by the withdrawal agreement and not by the UK-Ireland bilateral arrangements linked to the common travel area. Irish citizens might want to consider applying for settled status now to support future applications by family members. A successful application by an Irish citizen to the settlement scheme will make this process smoother for any family member applying in the future. However, the system will not prevent applications being made after the end of the implementation period by close family members seeking to join Irish citizens protected by the withdrawal agreement who do not have settled status.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked which family members are affected, given his own situation, which others might find themselves in. I think I answered that question earlier, so I hope that will suffice.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked who will staff the contact centre. Further details of this will be confirmed, and we will be discussing with stakeholders what the right service is and who will provide it.

Finally, the issue of landlord checks was raised. Landlord checks and the right to rent are not specific to EU or non-EU citizens; it is a requirement for all landlords to carry out such checks. Therefore, it does not matter where in the world you are from, as long as you have the right to live here.

I hope I have answered all the questions. If I have not—and there were quite a few—I will write to the noble Lords.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate]

My Lords, I was trying to ask a question of my noble friend when she answered the initial questions. As someone who has had some experience as a Minister of schemes of one kind or another where the Home Office has been involved with developing ID arrangements or helping people with passport applications and so on, I welcome the fact that something is being put in place here, but I urge her to look carefully at the logistics. Is she satisfied that enough resource is being made available for this extra duty? One of the proposals is that applicants can send their passports or ID documents to the Home Office, but I am sure she is aware that, when we are dealing with EU citizens, they tend to be much more mobile on a more regular and frequent basis, going backwards and forwards from here to Europe. Can she be sure that we will make certain that we have a better level of efficiency than, sadly, we have had in the past in turning round documents quickly and in dealing with the matter as speedily and with as little complication as possible?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will have heard in the Statement that we will start to roll out the process in the summer and towards the end of the year. I would not call it a trial run, but the “private beta” phase—which I had never heard of before—is apparently a dry run, using real people who will get real documents. That is a good way to test how the system is working.

I also mentioned earlier the delivery of the settlement scheme and the Treasury’s allocation of £170 million for the further development and delivery of the settlement scheme. As my noble friend alluded to, we do not underestimate the scale of the challenge and we want to get it right. Every year, we process millions of visa and passport applications, but that does not undermine our wish to get it right. Our passport service has a good customer service record and I can tell my noble friend that, over the past year, the average turnaround time for passport applications was approximately seven days. I might add that the Institute of Customer Service ranks HMPO in the top 50 high-scoring organisations across the public and private sector.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister knows that we have discussed this matter across the Floor on a number of occasions, and I am very grateful for her lucidity today. I have been arguing that, for those European Union citizens who have been successfully granted permanent right of residency, the right should be continued. As I understand it, that is what the Minister, in a rather roundabout way, has announced today. But, in view of the pressure in the Home Office, what is the logic of requiring European Union citizens who have acquired the right of permanent residency in this country to reapply—adding to the burden—for settlement? Why do we not simply grant that without them having to go through the process, as it has already been cleared by the Home Office?

I come to my last point. As the Minister knows, my main driver in this has been the National Health Service. If I am right in saying that most of those who have five years’ residency can stay in this country, will the Minister write to National Health Service trusts to point that out and to ask them to communicate it to all European Union residents who are working in the health service and are still very confused about their status?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for making that point. Permanent residency status was afforded to EU citizens when we were—as we still are—in the European Union. That will change, but their settled status will not change once we leave the EU. They will move from the status we had when we were in the EU to one that we will have when we are outside the EU—settled status—and they will not be charged for it. I know that it is not ideal and that they should automatically have it. However, that is the reason for the change.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister talked about working with stakeholders, and I believe that the Immigration Minister’s recent meeting with the organisation the3million was, according to its website, very successful. I think we should be grateful to the3million for its forensic analysis of the position. For instance, one of its 150 detailed questions is how a stay-at-home parent—one of the examples used in the Statement—can prove his or her residence. When will the Home Office be able to give answers to all those questions, as I understand it has agreed to do? Secondly, I believe that the withdrawal agreement states that the process is to be monitored by an independent authority. Can the Minister give the House details of that? Finally, on the point about British citizens in Europe, I wonder whether she is aware that the organisation British in Europe suggests on its website today that the Home Secretary is asking the wrong questions, because the current registration systems across the EU 27 are “largely working well”, and it is only France, along with the UK, that does not require a form of registration, so our Government should be asking what is planned to tweak existing systems. British in Europe also points out that the real issue for its members is free movement, which is a huge issue for British people on the continent, as 80% of Brits in the EU 27 are of working age or younger and rely on free movement for work and to keep their family together.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. I think I addressed in the Statement the very example she gave of stay-at-home parents. As the Statement says, applicants will not need to show that they meet the detailed requirements of free movement rules, which I think was the point that the noble Baroness was making. So if you are a stay-at-home mum—to pick a stereotype—or somebody who is retired, will you have to prove free movement rights? No, you will not. That is the simple answer to that. Regarding the independent authority, I do not think it has been announced yet, although I will confirm that in writing to the noble Baroness. I am pretty sure that it has not been announced, but it will be in due course.

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise for arriving late for the Statement, so I may have missed something. I know that the Statement is about EU citizens here, but can the Minister say whether she will make a similar Statement on UK citizens in Europe? Given that in our many debates the principle of reciprocity has applied, will this arrangement also be reciprocal? This issue has always been treated rather separately from the other Brexit issues. The Government declared their hand very early, so there must have been a lot of reaction in Europe, even if it has not been a consistent EU reaction.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

UK citizens in Europe will, of course, be a matter for Europe. We did declare our hand very early; we had a lot of pressure in Parliament and the country to do so, and to do so in good faith, and that is what we did.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, while this Statement will obviously need a great deal of scrutiny, I certainly join with those who have welcomed it most genuinely. Together with other things that are happening, it seems to indicate that there is a long overdue and welcome change of direction in the atmosphere at the Home Office and in the role that it is trying to fulfil. That is to be encouraged. I like these words in the Statement:

“Throughout the process, we will be looking to grant, not for reasons to refuse, and caseworkers will be able to exercise discretion in favour of the applicant where appropriate, to minimise administrative burdens”.


That is the right kind of language.

As I say, we will need to look at the detail. In the meantime, will the noble Baroness agree that the Government have yet to legislate for settled status in domestic law? What legal guarantees will those who have registered for this status prior to agreement of the withdrawal agreement be given under UK law? Can she guarantee that the agreement on citizens’ rights that has been reached with the EU will be honoured even if the UK is unable to reach an acceptable deal with the EU 27 under Article 50?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord. On the legal status, when an applicant applies for settled status they will receive a digital token and a letter that says that they have obtained settled status in this country. I think that the noble Lord is asking what will future-proof that status. Is that the point he is making? I cannot look into the future to see what a future Government might do, but this Government will do as much as they can to ensure that these people are here with settled status as proof that they are legally here.

[Lord Judd]

May I just respond to the question that the noble Baroness put to me? My point is that it is not yet established in law. How soon will it happen, and can we be sure that it will happen? In the meantime, how will their status be guaranteed in law? That is the point. Perhaps I may also say that, in view of all she has been saying, I hope that the position of the vulnerable and those who do not have access to high-tech means of communication will be covered in the spirit of what has been said in the Statement.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope that the noble Lord will be more satisfied with this response. It will be established in law. I cannot say what those future laws will look like under perhaps another Government because laws change, but it will be established in law.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend referred firmly to the fact that we are still in the European Union. Can she explain whether Britain will be represented at the meeting dealing with migration that is due to take place on Sunday? In particular, will Britain be arguing the case for a possible third country taking migrants before they are settled in the EU, which seems a very interesting idea? Does she have any idea which these third countries might be?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we will be a third country, as my noble friend will appreciate. On the meeting on migration to be held on Sunday, I will have to write to her because I really do not know and there is no point in pretending that I do.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, today’s Statement represents a welcome step forward, but there are an awful lot of detailed questions which remain unanswered. If my memory is correct, the group the3million has produced 150 of them. Like the noble Lord, Lord Judd, this morning I had the advantage of meeting the Home Secretary in the EU Justice Sub-committee and we drew that to his attention. Perhaps I might also make the point to the Minister. Can she ensure that those questions are gone through and answered in some detail?

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that my right honourable friend the Minister for Immigration met with representatives of the3million group. I will inquire as to whether she is going to go through each of the 125 questions. I have to say that I do not know. I will get back to the noble Baroness or I will ask the Minister to write to her.

At this point, perhaps I might take the opportunity to revisit an answer I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I talked about the EU public policy test for the implementation period when he asked me about criminality and then I started to talk about UK deportation rules. I should not have talked about UK deportation rules because it will remain the EU public policy test. He may or may not have noticed that I switched tack, but I would like to clarify that now.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, the most welcome phrase in the whole Statement is that officials will be looking for reasons to grant rather than reasons to refuse—that will be a tremendous change of culture for the department. I do not believe that any civil servant in the Home Office, the Border Agency or the Passport Office has ever earned a bonus in the past for issuing more visas than the quota. Can the Minister assure the House that this is going to be a genuine culture change within those agencies: otherwise, I fear that, whatever the good intentions may be at ministerial level, the outputs will look dismally like they always do on these matters? Of course, I am sure that Commonwealth family applicants will be looking for the same kind of approach by officials when their applications are considered. Perhaps she could give us some guidance on whether this culture change is going to reach to the furthest edges of the Home Office.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that it became clear, when my right honourable friend became Home Secretary, that culture change was afoot across the Home Office. He talked about a more humane approach to decision-making and about the end of the hostile environment, which would instead become a compliant environment. The wording of the Statement today was no accident. It reflects a much more positive attitude to people who make applications and tries to help them. As I say, I do not think that that is accidental and, since my right honourable friend became Home Secretary, his actions have shown that.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, how does this settlement relate to the agreement with the EU on reciprocal treatment under the NHS? My noble friend will be aware that, under the present system, HMG pay for UK citizens who require medical treatment in the EU and we are meant to be repaid for treating EU citizens here. The trouble is that for some years it has been totally out of balance. The last time I looked at the figures, HMG paid out some £500 million for the treatment of UK citizens in the EU and received only about £50 million for the treatment of EU citizens in the UK. How is that relevant to what the Prime Minister said about the Brexit dividend?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What I am talking about today is not particularly related to that issue, but my noble friend is absolutely right to ask what the reciprocal arrangement will look like when we leave the EU. I do not think that the area of NHS reciprocal arrangements has yet been determined, but I shall confirm that in writing to my noble friend. I think that it will be determined in due course.