Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) (Custodial Premises) Subordinate Provisions Order 2018
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the draft Order and Regulations laid before the House on 22 January and 7 February be approved.
Relevant Documents: 14th Report from the Regulatory Reform Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 27 March.
Immigration: Asylum Claims
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Lord Scriven
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in implementing the recommendations of the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration in the report, An investigation into the Home Office’s Handling of Asylum Claims Made on the Grounds of Sexual Orientation, March to June 2014.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, the UK is a world leader in handling asylum claims based on sexual orientation. In their response, the Government accepted all eight recommendations from the independent chief inspector’s report, either entirely—seven—or partially—one. They have since implemented them all accordingly as part of their drive to continually improve.
Lord Scriven (LD)
I thank the Minister for that Answer. I want to move on to the issue of detention of those seeking asylum on the grounds of sexual orientation. The UK is the only country in the EU that detains indefinitely those seeking asylum on sexual orientation grounds. Therefore, will the Government commit to implementing the Yogyakarta principle plus 10, on the application of international human rights law in relation to sexual orientation and gender identity, with particular reference to ending the detention of LGBTI asylum seekers?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I can make it absolutely clear here today that we do not detain asylum seekers indefinitely. The noble Lord will know, because I have said it here before, that detention is a last resort, and the vast majority of LGB asylum claims are processed in the non-detained system, with claimants living in the community. Only a small minority of claimants are detained while their claim is considered, and almost all of them have claimed asylum after being detained for removal. Detention under immigration powers is used only very sparingly, as I have said, and alternatives are considered before any decision to detain is made.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Are the Government taking steps to improve the quality of decision-making in LGBT asylum claims, in view of the large number of refusals that are overturned on appeal?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the quality of the system was vastly improved after the 2014 report, which I talked about in my first Answer. In addition, the training of people dealing with LGBT asylum claims in detention or seeking their removal has been done in conjunction with both Stonewall and UKLGIG to absolutely ensure humane treatment of LGBT people in asylum.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
Can I ask the noble Baroness about the Home Office guidance issued in 2017? I have seen reports suggesting that gay asylum seekers could be returned to Afghanistan if they pretended they were straight. Surely this cannot be the case. We must work to a much higher standard, and the question of personal safety should be paramount in decisions given by the authorities.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
What the noble Lord says seems to be a contradiction in terms, because an LGBT person would presumably be seeking asylum because they feared persecution on return to a country that persecuted LGBT people. I would largely dispute the point, but I will double check because the noble Lord asked the question.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I thank Her Majesty’s Government for the initial constructive response to the serious concerns—outlined in the report by the All-Party Parliamentary Group for International Freedom of Religion or Belief, which I co-chair—about people claiming asylum on grounds of persecution for their faith or belief. In particular, there were concerns about religious-based “Trivial Pursuit”-type questions and poor interpretation of religious concepts. Will my noble friend confirm that, as in LGBTQI claims, all Home Office caseworkers, as part of their training, will now have compulsory training in asylum claims on the grounds of persecution for faith or belief?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
All people in the detention estate have training in dealing with LGBT claims and claims on the grounds of faith. As with LGBT claims, faith claims are dealt with sensitively. Nobody who fears persecution because of their faith or because they are LGBT would be expected to return to a country in which that characteristic was persecuted.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, does the Minister understand that some of us are greatly concerned when her department has to ask charities and voluntary organisations to tell it how many LGBT people it has in detention? Could her department commit to producing better statistics on these people, who, after all, are often detained with the very people from whom they are fleeing persecution?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the noble Baroness for bringing that up. She will know that we produced statistics at the end of last year. Figures from charities and any information that could be brought to bear in this early stage of making those statistics robust are always helpful, but clearly, we would like to get to a stage where the statistics we produce are robust. I thank the noble Baroness for her part in this.
Lord Christopher (Lab)
My Lords, some of the cases we have read about in the press are almost unbelievable. The noble Baroness may not have the answer to this question in her briefing papers, but how many of the staff dealing with these matters have more than 12 months’ experience of them? How many have more than two years’ experience? At its peak, what was the size of the cut in the Home Office staff overall?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord is right: I do not have the precise figures on me. However, I can tell him that all people in the detention estate are trained in dealing with some of these very sensitive issues.
Baroness Afshar (CB)
My Lords, how aware are these officials of the very differing interpretations of and varieties within religions, as defining someone as Muslim does not particularly help in understanding what kind of Muslim they are and what kind of understanding they have? The variety within Islam is so large that it takes me a whole term to teach my students about it. Would the Government be willing to have me teach for a term to tell them about the differences just within Islam?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness is right to point out that religion, particularly Islam, can be interpreted in different ways in different countries. Therefore, it is very important for those in the detention estate to have religious literacy training so that they are sensitive to those differences. I will take back the noble Baroness’s point.
Manchester Arena Attack Review
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement that was made by my right honourable friend in the other place. The Statement is as follows:
“The horrific events that took place at the Manchester Arena on 22 May last year were an attack on the people of Manchester. All terrorist attacks are cowardly but this was an appalling attack which deliberately targeted innocent people, many of them young. Twenty-two people were killed and many more injured. As a north-west MP, I feel the pain personally.
The Mayor of Greater Manchester commissioned this independent review following the attack, focusing on the response to the attack and the nine days that followed it. The report rightly highlights the acts of bravery and compassion on the night of 22 May and the following days. As Lord Kerslake noted yesterday, the response was overwhelmingly positive. He said the investments in planning and exercise were demonstrated to the full. We are indebted to the emergency services. He said we should reflect. We keep our preparedness for terrorist attacks under constant review to ensure that our plans reflect best practice and the current threat. Lessons learned from exercising and attacks are also crucial. It is right that all those involved acknowledge where the report has identified the need for improvement. The review is extensive and makes many recommendations. We, and all other agencies concerned, will consider them carefully.
At the centre of the review Lord Kerslake put the experiences of bereaved families, the injured and others directly affected, as indeed they should be. We will ensure that across government the recommendations concerning victims are fully considered. We continue to stand with the people of Manchester as they recover and rebuild following the horrendous attack last year, and our thoughts remain with those who were injured and with the families and friends of those who lost their lives”.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
First, we remember all those people who lost their lives in the attack and also those who were injured. I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer to the Urgent Question in the other place earlier today. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, for his comprehensive report. I too pay tribute to the emergency service workers who acted with courage and skill on that terrible night.
Can the Minister confirm that the Government will be orchestrating a review into national counterterror protocols following the publication of this report? What are the Government going to do about the fact that the national aid mutual telephony system operated by Vodafone failed to cope with the high number of calls on the night in question?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
On the national counterterrorist reaction and response, I think the noble Lord will agree that generally the overall response was excellent. There was an issue with the telephony system. Part of that issue was that there was no backup system. That has been thoroughly reviewed and a backup has been put in place. It was not something we would have wished to have happened on such a terrible night. I hope that that sort of issue will never arise again because of the measures we have put in place.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I associate myself with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. As a senior policer officer, I have been directly involved in the immediate response to terrorist incidents, including the attacks on London on 7 July 2005, and the aftermath is typically chaotic for several hours. Secondary explosive devices and/or marauding gunmen are real possibilities, as we saw in the November 2015 Paris attacks. If either of those alternative scenarios had transpired in this case, the criticism could well have been of the police and the ambulance service for putting their unarmed crews in danger. Does the Minister agree that these are extremely difficult calls to make but that once the decision has been made by the police, who are the lead agency in such situations, that decision needs to be communicated to all the emergency services so as to provide a united response? Can the Minister tell the House who in government is taking responsibility for ensuring that communication between emergency services is effective in these situations?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I pay tribute to the noble Lord and the part that he played in the Metropolitan Police. He must have some incredible experience of such things. He is absolutely right about the immediate aftermath, which is why there are various phased processes for the police and emergency services to go through afterwards. On the terrible possibility of a secondary attack, he is completely right to point out that communication is key, and the joint emergency services interoperability principles come into play. Events such as the 7/7 bombings, through which I am sure the noble Lord was operational, identified the need to improve that joint working between the emergency services. The JESIP, as it is called, was set up to improve how the police, fire and ambulance services work together when responding to those multiagency incidents when they are not specifically CT focused. That was not the case in this instance; it is most relevant in major incidents involving mass fatalities and significant numbers, such as those seen in Manchester and London last year—therefore, providing a key component to the UK’s ability to adequately prepare for a terrorist incident.
Lord Kerslake (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response to the Urgent Question. I add my praise to the emergency services and indeed, to the people of Manchester, who responded magnificently to this terrible event. As we say in the report, there is a lot for Manchester to be proud of, but clearly there are some important lessons to learn. They are lessons for Greater Manchester, but they go well beyond that to the country as a whole, and we would all hope that a similar attack does not happen.
At what point will the Minister come back on the eight recommendations we made to the Government? It would be extremely helpful if a letter went directly to the Mayor of Greater Manchester. In particular, will she give her thoughts to the question of mental health service support for those who are injured as a consequence or indeed, for bereaved families? The people who were injured and the families who were bereaved came from across the north of England, not just from Greater Manchester. Does she agree that it is unacceptable that they had a different level of service according to where they lived and that we must have a co-ordinated response?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the noble Lord for his report. I did not quite expect him to be in his place today; I was looking round for him. In terms of aid for victims, which was the first point, it is very important that victims are able to access a range of financial assistance, not least from the incredible efforts of the charitable sector, but also through the criminal injuries compensation scheme. The Ministry of Justice is working closely with the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, its executive agency, which administers the scheme to ensure that this process is as smooth as possible. On another note, I thank the local communities who were involved in giving so generously to the charitable efforts in the aftermath of the attack.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure that we all want to pay tribute to the emergency service workers on the night—in particular those who carried on caring for victims even though they were being instructed to withdraw from the area because of the risk of supplementary explosions. The issue of communications and the failure on this occasion of Vodafone have been raised already. Will the noble Baroness tell us whether the failure in this instance has meant that the Government will think again about transferring all emergency services communication to the mobile phone network over the next few years?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord is absolutely right to again bring up the issue of communication. Certainly moves are afoot to upgrade the mobile phone network but, of course, the police might use underground, which is another possibility. I will keep the House abreast of some of the updates in innovation that are taking place as they come forward.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, may I invite the Minister to respond to the second question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, on mental health care and a consistent quality of response?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I knew that I had left something out in my response to the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. That was, of course, the mental health and other problems that victims may face in the aftermath of an attack and the short-term, medium-term and long-term effects. In the immediate aftermath of the attack, we rapidly put together a cross-government Victims of Terrorism Unit to work closely with Manchester. It identified and resolved issues affecting the provision of an effective and co-ordinated response to victims of terrorism. That runs alongside the work we have done across systems, including in the third sector and the private sector, to improve and strengthen the support that is so vital to victims in the aftermath of a terrorist attack.
Lord Stunell (LD)
My Lords, I associate myself with the Minister’s remarks on the emergency services and the response of the community across the whole of Greater Manchester, including in my own borough of Stockport. A good friend of mine spent two very anxious hours outside the arena that night, hoping that he would be able to collect his daughter, and was quite unable to get any of the information that he needed to find that out. In the event, she was safe and well, at least physically, but the failure of that emergency helpline system caused real anxiety to a large number of people at a very difficult time of their lives. I hope that the Minister will understand that and apply as much pressure as she can—or as the Government are able to do—to make sure that this kind of slip-up does not occur in future.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I join the noble Lord in complimenting the response from the community on the night of the attack. I was at the vigil in Albert Square the day after the attack. I also went over to the Islamic centre in Whalley Range, where there were representatives of all faiths from all parts of Greater Manchester and beyond. The feeling of solidarity among all sectors of the community across Greater Manchester was quite incredible. However, the noble Lord is absolutely right that the lack of communication caused incredible distress to people on the night. I take on board his point and the points of other noble Lords that we must make sure that such an almost elementary failing does not happen again.
Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) (Custodial Premises) Subordinate Provisions Order 2018
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the Grand Committee do consider the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) (Custodial Premises) Subordinate Provisions Order 2018.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, in bringing forward this statutory instrument the Government are seeking to restore the long-established principle that responsibility for enforcing fire safety regulations across the whole of the Crown’s custodial and detention estate should lie with those who have been appointed or authorised as Crown inspectors by Ministers in England and in Wales. At present, Crown inspectors in England and Wales are not the enforcing authorities for fire safety in the small number—about 7%—of custodial and detention premises where the Government have contracted out the provision of services to private providers.
That this was a significant issue became apparent in 2016 when responsibility for Crown inspectors in England transferred to the Home Office. Crown inspectors, the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice instigated an investigation into the contractual arrangements in place for the provision of custodial or detention operations. As a result of this detailed review of contracts and ownership arrangements, it became clear that a number of contractual arrangements had been put in place for the operation of these premises, which had had the effect of transferring ownership or occupation for the purposes of the fire safety order away from the relevant Crown departments to private companies. Where this has happened, the responsibility for enforcing compliance with fire safety regulation has similarly been transferred away from our dedicated teams of Crown inspectors, and lies instead with the individual local fire and rescue authorities in which the relevant premises are located. This is not what was intended when the fire safety order was enacted in October 2006.
At that time, the then Government were clear that, irrespective of any contractual arrangements that were in place with the private sector for the provision of services, they wanted Crown inspectors to be the sole enforcing authorities in these types of premises. Indeed, they went so far as to spell this out in the guidance on enforcement that they published, to which all those with enforcement responsibilities under the fire safety order are required to have regard.
Now we are aware that the policy intent no longer aligns with the law, we want to rectify the position and ensure that the original policy of Crown inspectors inspecting, and where necessary enforcing, fire safety regulation across the whole of the Government’s custodial estate is re-established. We want to ensure that there is absolute clarity, both now and in the future, about the scope of enforcement responsibilities for the fire and rescue authorities and the Crown inspectors. This order therefore amends article 25 of the fire safety order to set out specific legal definitions of the full range of custodial premises for which the Crown inspectors are to be responsible. These will be established beyond doubt and will not, as is currently the case, be contingent on the often complex contractual leasing or ownership arrangements that may now be in place. Essentially, this order delivers through legislation the clarity that was intended by the 2007 policy guidance on enforcement.
It is the Government’s intention, shared by our counterparts in Wales, for there to be a single national organisation in each of our areas of jurisdiction: an organisation charged with the responsibility and invested with the specific skills and expertise necessary to provide three key things.
First, we want Ministers and relevant departments—which of course have the ultimate responsibility for fire safety in these types of custodial and detention premises—to benefit from the strategic oversight of fire safety compliance across the whole of the Crown’s custodial estate that is available where a single national body is in place. Secondly, we want there to be a clear and easily accessible route established for ensuring that any concerns relating to fire safety in our custodial estate can be raised immediately and addressed promptly by those with day-to-day responsibilities for fire safety management. Where reluctance or poor communication militates against appropriate action, we want an immediate escalation mechanism—direct to Ministers, if necessary—to be in place and delivered through our national fire and rescue advisers. In England, this means the Chief Inspector of the Crown Premises Fire Inspection Group. In Wales, as in Scotland, it means the Welsh Government’s Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser. Thirdly, we want a dedicated cadre of fire safety inspecting officers, each with the necessary training, maintained and regularly updated, to operate safely and effectively in this unique type of premises, where the risk to life in the event of a fire is generally high.
The order will re-establish robust national arrangements across all of the Government’s custodial estate. As such, it will specify the full range of custodial premises for which the Government are responsible, providing absolute clarity on the scope of the Crown’s responsibility for inspection and enforcement. This will ensure that our dedicated team of experienced Crown inspectors are clear that they have the powers to ensure that appropriate fire safety standards are in place to protect the lives of those living in, working on or visiting the Government’s custodial or detention estate. I beg to move.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the order. I heard from what she said that this anomaly, whereby privately run prisons and custodial premises were not being inspected by national inspectors, was stumbled across when responsibility for Crown inspectors was transferred from the Ministry of Justice to the Home Office. Will she confirm that that is the case, and is it not a little worrying? How long might it have continued if that transfer had not taken place? Clearly, it is very important to have consistency across all privately run prisons and other places of detention, rather than to have the potential for different standards being applied by local fire and rescue services. On that basis, we support the order.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I am very happy to support the order before the Grand Committee. It is certainly very sensible to have the experts in fire safety and security to be looking after the whole of the estate. I am very happy to support it.
I have one query; it is a little disappointing—I refer to page 5 of the impact assessment at paragraph 1.9. I am surprised that we still have this ridiculous “one in, three out” rule. It does not apply here because the Government have clearly tested it against that ridiculous rule. It is an example of the worst kind of ideological, political dogma. You would have thought, in the aftermath of a tragedy such as Grenfell, we would not be using it, but clearly the Government still are. I hope that any regulation is in force at any time because it is necessary and proper. I cannot believe we still have this arbitrary rule. It is a matter of much regret, which I will probably take up elsewhere. Other than that, I am very happy to support the order, but I was surprised to see this when I read through the papers this morning.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I acknowledge the frustration of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, but first the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said that we “stumbled across” this issue. Fire and rescue services were inspecting private prisons during the said period. Responsibility for Crown inspectors transferred from MHCLG in January 2016, but, going back, when the regulatory reform order was implemented in October 2006 the then Government issued statutory guidance to all those bodies that had a duty to enforce its provisions in the range of premises to which it applies. The guidance, to which all enforcing authorities are required to have regard, specifically addressed the issue of enforcement in the custodial estate. As it made clear:
“For the avoidance of doubt all civilian prisons, young offender institutions, immigration detention, holding or removal centres, court custody suites, customs and excise detention areas are the responsibility of the Fire Inspectors of the Crown Premises Inspections Group regardless of whether they are operated by the relevant Government department or contracted out”.
But as we know, what the law actually says does not always align with the policy intent, no matter how sound the principles are on which it is based. The principles are sound, as they were in 2007 when the guidance was issued, and they remain so. I hope that the statutory instrument before the Committee clarifies the situation and I beg to move.
Police Powers of Designated Civilian Staff and Volunteers (Excluded Powers and Duties of Constables) Regulations 2018
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the Grand Committee do consider the Police Powers of Designated Civilian Staff and Volunteers (Excluded Powers and Duties of Constables) Regulations 2018.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, noble Lords will recall the debates we had on the Policing and Crime Bill during the last Session—it seems a long time ago. The Bill received Royal Assent on 31 January 2017 and many of its provisions are already in force, with a number of further measures due to be implemented on 1 April.
The Committee will recall that the Act provided the legislative underpinning for a number of important reforms which included provisions enabling chief officers to make better use of police staff and volunteers, freeing up police officers to focus on their key tasks. Chapter 1 of Part 3 of the Policing and Crime Act 2017 amends Section 38 of the Police Reform Act 2002 to enable civilians employed by police forces to be designated with additional police powers. These reforms also enable volunteers under the direction and control of a chief police officer to be designated with powers for the first time. Part 1 of Schedule 3B of the Police Reform Act 2002 sets out a list of powers that are reserved solely for use by constables and cannot be used by police staff or volunteers. Included within that list are some of the most intrusive powers available to constables such as stop and search and arrest.
When we consulted on these reforms in 2015, the Police Federation proposed the removal of one of the original powers of detention officers made available in 2002, that of carrying out an intimate search when a medical professional is not available. While the number of intimate searches conducted by police staff rather than constables is very low—they have been carried out three times nationally in 15 years—this is a very intrusive power and I committed in our debate to restrict its use. Unfortunately, due to an oversight in the drafting process, the Act does not in fact restrict the use of this power, so these draft regulations would deliver on that commitment. Regulation 2 would add the power to undertake an intimate search when a medical professional is not available, under Section 55(6) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, to the list of excluded powers and duties. As with the other powers already on this list, they are reserved solely for use by constables and cannot be used by police staff or volunteers.
The addition to the schedule of excluded powers and duties of the power to conduct an intimate search in the absence of a medical professional will ensure that the most intrusive powers remain available only to police officers, thus preserving the office of constable as central to the delivery of policing in England and Wales. These draft regulations deliver the full intent of the measures already approved by noble Lords in the last Session. On that basis, I commend them to the Committee.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I am happy to support the regulations before the Grand Committee. It is obviously sensible that civilians are designated as having certain additional police powers as and when an appropriate police officer believes they are needed. Equally, of course, it is important that certain things are prohibited, and certainly an intimate search should not be in the hands of anyone but a warranted police officer. That is why I fully support this order.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank both noble Lords for their contributions. On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about how many other powers should be included, he is right that the Government should keep these excluded powers under review. They will give careful consideration to any request to add powers but it should be noted that the regulation-making power within Section 38(6)(c) of the 2002 Act can only be used to add powers to the list—that is, to remove further powers from designated staff and volunteers. The noble Lord probably knows that primary legislation would be required to remove any powers from the list and enable them to be designated to staff or volunteers.
Immigration: International Students
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Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare my interest as set out in the register.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford)
My Lords, migration statistics are produced by the independent Office for National Statistics, which follows international best practice. The Government do not intend to seek to influence this. There is no plan to limit the number of genuine international students who can come to the UK and, in 2017, the number of university-sponsored visas issued rose by 6%.
Lord Holmes of Richmond
My Lords, international students contribute well over £20 billion to the economy —an economic boon for Britain. Currently, more than 50 Heads of State or Prime Ministers were educated in UK higher education. Show me a more successful piece of soft power. In light of this, will my noble friend consider the pilot for named UK universities for visas and going back to the department and reconsidering removing international students from the net migration figures?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My noble friend is nothing if not consistent. I am very pleased to tell him, as he mentioned the pilot study, that a further 23 institutions have been selected on the basis of having a consistently low visa refusal rate for their region. The pilot means that universities are responsible for eligibility checks, so students applying for their visa can submit fewer documents alongside their visa applications. The pilot also helps to support students who wish to switch to a work route and take up a graduate role by extending the leave period following the end of their study by up to six months.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
My Lords, in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, on his Question and supplementary, with which I agree totally, does the Minister agree with Dame Julia Goodfellow, president of Universities UK, who says that,
“it is important to remember that international students also enrich our campuses and the experience of UK students, both academically and culturally Many return home having built strong professional and personal links here that provide long-term, ‘soft power’ benefits for the UK”.
I declare an interest as Her Majesty’s Government’s trade envoy to Taiwan, which, I am happy to say, sends the UK more than 16,000 students a year.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I am very happy to agree with both the noble Lord and, of course, my noble friend. We absolutely acknowledge that international students enrich the economy and, indeed, this country. We have no plans at all to cap the numbers—in fact, we encourage them, hence we are expanding the pilot.
Lord Green of Deddington
I am grateful to the noble Earl, and I hope that I may also be nothing if not consistent. Is the noble Baroness aware that the number of foreign nationals in the UK who arrive to study is, according to the Labour Force Survey, 1 million? In that case, is it not surely essential that they should be included in the migration statistics, as the ONS intends and as the Royal Statistical Society has recommended? It is a question not of who is allowed in but of counting them as they come and go.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord is absolutely right. Earlier this year, the Royal Statistical Society agreed with that approach and said that,
“we believe it is imperative for due attention to be paid to the international definitions of migration, which lead to the inclusion of students in the figures”.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, is it not a fact that the combination of Home Office measures has had a dampening impact on overseas recruitment and we are losing market share? Coming back to the issue of statistics, the Minister’s own department’s official statistics in August last year showed that 95% of international students coming from outside the EU were fully accounted for, either by leaving to go back home or by receiving an extension of their leave to be here because they are extending their studies. What is the problem with the Home Office in coming to a sensible resolution of this?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord is absolutely right that 95% of students—I thought it was slightly more—are compliant. However, I dispute his point about discouraging students. As I said in reply to the original Question, student numbers were up 6% this year. However, if people come here and require services such as housing or other sorts of public services, those figures have to be considered in all sorts of ways when planning for the population that is resident here.
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, will the Minister consider that what may be gained in the numbers is lost by the message as it is heard: foreigners are not welcome, and the British do not understand the international nature of learning?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the message that is going out appears to be from your Lordships’ House and is not being heard internationally. Much has been made of applications from India. Last year, the numbers granted increased by 28%. I dispute that students are not feeling welcome in this country. They are applying in their droves.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend will acknowledge that this House has repeatedly discussed this issue in great detail and with near unanimity. What is the real obstacle to separating the students from those who are coming indefinitely? Doing so would be sensible; it would encourage our universities; and it would give a message that the doors really are open for students throughout the world.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I think I have explained that, given the increases in visa applications and grants that have happened in the last 12 months—in fact, since 2010—students are not deterred from coming to this country to gain a world-class education. I think I have explained, too, that if students were not counted, we may not be able to plan accordingly for some of the vital services that people who live here use.
Police: Emergency Calls
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Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, no one in need of urgent help should have their emergency call unanswered. While answering 999 calls is an operational matter for the police, we have maintained protection for police spending so that forces have the resources that they need to carry out their important work. It is for the police to determine how best to allocate their resources and manage their communications with the public.
Lord Paddick
My Lords, today Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services has highlighted major concern that policing is under significant stress.
“About a quarter of forces are all too often overwhelmed by the demand they face”,
and are not meeting the one-hour standard for responding to 999 calls that require an immediate response, with one force taking an average of 14 hours to respond to such calls. Although these calls are not those where life is immediately in danger, they include domestic assaults where a partner has left the scene but could return at any moment, a category of call that has increased by 88% over the past year.
This week, the UK Statistics Authority ruled that the Government misled the public with the claim of an extra £450 million for local forces when, in fact, central government funding is falling in real terms—and has been for years. Would today, as we remember the sacrifice of PC Keith Palmer, be a good day for the Government to finally admit that the police service is now underfunded and say that they are going to increase central government funding for the police service?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I first join the noble Lord in remembering today the sacrifice that Keith Palmer made to protect people in the Palace of Westminster. There will be a memorial in, I think, about 20 minutes’ time in Westminster Hall to remember the attack a year ago. The MPCC and the APCC called for £440 million of extra funding in 2018-19, with additional counterterrorism funding and increases in council tax precepts on top. They wanted this funding for an extra 5,000 front-line officers for proactive policing by 2020. The funding increase for next year is made up of main government grant, protected at flat cash; up to £270 million from increase in council tax precept income; a £15 million increase in counterterrorism police funding; and a £130 million increase in national priorities, mostly special grant, for exceptional costs and technology. On the point about domestic violence, I totally agree with the noble Lord. We have provided £11 million through the police transformation fund to support new police interventions to tackle domestic abuse, with a focus on early intervention and prevention.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I join the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, in paying tribute to PC Keith Palmer. The crisis in police response times has been made in Downing Street and the Home Office and is putting people’s safety at risk. Does the Minister accept that the Government have, in real terms, cut the funding to police? When she responds, I am sure that she will have in mind the comments of the UK Statistics Authority chair, Sir David Norgrove, who criticised the Government and the Home Office for incorrectly leading the public to assume that the Government were increasing police funding.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, every time I have stood at this Dispatch Box I have tried to explain what the increase will look like. I hope that I have made it quite clear. I have just explained to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, the breakdown of the funding. Almost all PCCs in England intend to increase the precept by £12, or very close to that. We expect the funding increase for local force budgets to be very close to the £270 million figure that I have just outlined. Most PCCs have set out plans to use this additional funding to protect or improve front-line policing. As I have said before at this Dispatch Box, if all forces delivered the level of productivity benefits of mobile working of the best forces, the average officer could spend an hour a day extra on the front line. This has the potential to free up the equivalent of 11,000 extra officers across England and Wales.
Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington (CB)
My Lords, it is unfortunate that we talk about criticism of the police service on a day when we are recognising the bravery of Keith Palmer and many other officers who run towards danger rather than away from it—some of which is of course not reported. Can we return, if we may, to the question of emergency calls? A 999 call is the last resort of people out there on the streets and in their houses. There is no other course for people to take other than to take matters into their own hands and, to use the Inspector of the Constabulary’s words this morning on the “Today” programme, “If they are mad enough to take action, they will get an immediate response”.
I have listened to what the Minister has to say about funding, but the issue is emergency calls. It is a triage system that does not work and, if it is a question of resources, surely Home Office procedures and action should take care of these issues.
This is not just a question of answering 999 calls. Again, if you look at the report and listen to the Inspector of Constabulary, more importantly, it is a matter of investigative resources. Detectives are short of resources. Surely the noble Baroness will accept that this needs to be monitored and followed up by a further report by the Inspectorate of Constabulary to this House or to the public.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I agree with the noble Lord’s point about PC Keith Palmer and the bravery of our police forces. They often put their lives at risk in the line of duty. I also agree with him that 999 is a last resort. He talked about people who had been man enough to call deserving the response required. Sometimes, it would be good if someone were woman enough to call—because often these people are victims of domestic violence—but I understand the point of the noble Lord’s question.
In terms of resources, the Minister for Policing, Nick Hurd, has visited every police force in the country. Hence, we have arrived at the settlement that I outlined to both noble Lords who asked about this. The police are operationally independent of government. It is up to the police to deploy the resources that they get in their priority areas. It is absolutely right that 999 calls are answered. If you look around the different police forces, you will see different performance levels. It is not necessarily those police forces with the most money who perform best.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
I wrote last week to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick, and pointed out that the working conditions of the armed officers here on the Palace Estate are not very good. They work a two-hour shift. If they get wet or cold, as they did in the snow, they are not very effective. I have photographs of officers with snow on their shoulders and hats. I cannot help but feel that, if they were horses or dogs, they would get some shelter. Is the Minister going to do something for these armed officers who are risking their lives in their jobs?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I can certainly take the noble Baroness’s comments back. I agree with her that dogs and horses are sometimes more important to the public than humans. I look forward to hearing the response from Cressida Dick to the noble Baroness.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Should the police be encouraged to make greater use of their stop-and-search powers, particularly in London?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
We have been mindful that stop and search has perhaps been overused in the past. As we are more vigilant as a nation to the dangers not only of serious and organised crime but of potential terrorism on our streets, the police-led intelligence work is probably going to have to be more fine-tuned in terms of stop and search.
Lord Dholakia (LD)
My Lords, when a 999 call is made, there is a response from the police and they determine the urgency of the situation. Who measures the outcome of these urgent calls over a period of time to see how effective the police’s response has been?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
There is an assumption that every 999 call is urgent, though it is not always the case. The police operationally determine the seriousness of that call. In recent times, police have been trained more acutely to recognise signs of vulnerability from members of the public who call, particularly in the area of domestic violence.
Passport (Fees) Regulations 2018
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts(6 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 29 January be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 15 March.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, there is a story going around that—
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am speaking on the regulations. There is a story going around, which I am absolutely sure must be fake news, that the proposed iconic blue passport is going to be produced in France. Will the Minister confirm whether that is true or not, because, if it is true, it must be a great embarrassment for Her Majesty’s Government?
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, any questions about this issue should have been raised in Committee. The question that the noble Lord asks has nothing to do with the regulations.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
What is the answer to the question? This is an opportunity to raise it. Surely the Minister must know what the position is.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, this is not an opportunity for noble Lords to stand up and ask random questions.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I hope my question is not a random question. This statutory instrument is about fees for passports, so could I ask my noble friend: what would be the increase in fees if our new passports were printed in the United Kingdom, on the grounds of security, and not in France? French passports are printed in France on the grounds of national security.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I repeat the answer that I gave to the noble Lord.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I have every respect for the Chief Whip, but we are being asked to approve these regulations and, as a Member here, I am entitled to ask a question about them. I am asking what the increase in fees would be if, on national security grounds, which we would be entitled to invoke under the relevant EU directive, these passports were printed in Britain. If my noble friend does not know the answer, perhaps she could write to me.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I do not think it is a question of knowing the answer or not. I make the point that the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Stoneham, were present in Committee last Thursday when we discussed this. We will have plenty of opportunity to discuss where the passports are printed. This is simply about fees. I repeat the points that I made to my noble friend and the noble Lord.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
Will the noble Baroness say when the opportunity to discuss that will be?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, as noble Lords will know, when things are discussed in this House is entirely a matter for Members.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, this matter was not known last Thursday; it has only become public recently. For once, I actually agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. The Government of France insist that French passports are produced only in France for reasons of security. If we are, sadly, going to have to leave the European Union, and I hope that we are not, and if we are going to have these iconic blue passports—well, the last one I had was more black than blue, to be honest—then they ought to be produced in Britain, in Gateshead or somewhere else. Why is that not the case? The Minister must answer this.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I know that the noble Lord thinks that I must answer this, but it is a courtesy in this House that if someone has an issue to raise in Committee then they should raise it in Committee, and I fully expect that in due course, both noble Lords will try to secure a debate on this very matter.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Dear) (CB)
The question is that this Motion be agreed to. I think that the Contents have it.
Domestic Abuse
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lady, Baroness Lister, on securing this afternoon’s debate on an incredibly important subject. I also commend her cattle prod-like approach to this matter over the years—certainly in the time that I have known her. I thank noble Lords for some of the very moving speeches that I have heard, including those by the noble Lords, Lord Bird and Lord Paddick. Some of these things are not easy to say in public, but noble Lords did that. The contributions have been many and varied, which has added to the debate. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who spoke in the gap, that I fully appreciate where she is coming from. I will give her a more thoughtful response, probably by letter—I am sure we will have discussions about this anyway.
The statistics are shocking. Domestic abuse affects almost 2 million victims in England and Wales every year. It can be physical, psychological and emotional, and is carried out by those supposedly closest to the victims—as the noble Lord, Lord Bird, said, often they love them, which is a very strange emotion to have while beating that person to a pulp—in an environment that should be a place of safety and security. Domestic abuse has a devastating impact on the lives of survivors and, as many noble Lords said, particularly my noble friends Lord Farmer and Lady Bertin and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, it can have intergenerational consequences for children.
The Government are committed to doing everything we can to end domestic abuse. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked me what vigour we will put into this. We have for many years voiced our opposition to what is happening to victims of domestic abuse and other forms of abuse, and we will continue to do this with the same vigour.
On 8 March, International Women’s Day, we launched a public consultation on transforming the response to domestic abuse. I was very shocked by what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said about GPs and I hope that he will raise that point during the consultation process. The Government’s aim is to build a society that has absolutely no tolerance of domestic abuse. We want to actively empower survivors, communities and professionals to confront and challenge it, and we are determined to ensure that victims feel safe and supported and can get help to rebuild their lives. Our consultation outlines a programme of work designed to prevent domestic abuse; many noble Lords talked about prevention. It is based on four principles: first, changing attitudes; secondly, protecting victims; thirdly, pursuing perpetrators; and, fourthly, making sure that everyone across the country receives a consistent response.
Many Peers asked what we are doing, going wider than the Bill. We know that legislation alone will not transform our response to domestic abuse. For this reason, the legislative proposals outlined in the consultation will be accompanied by a package of non-legislative action to tackle domestic abuse. We are also providing an additional £20 million for support services in recognition of the need for further funding. But from the speeches I have heard this afternoon, I think we all agree that we need societal change towards this terrible crime.
I want to be clear that the focus of this work is very much on victims and their children. Abuse has a devastating impact on children and we know that adults who witnessed domestic abuse as a child are far more likely to experience such abuse by a partner as an adult. We have introduced a new ground-breaking offence of controlling or coercive behaviour, as my noble friend Lady Jenkin mentioned. We have placed domestic homicide reviews on a statutory footing, rolled out the domestic violence disclosure scheme and introduced domestic violence protection orders.
This debate has raised some really important points about protection and support for victims. I will try to address the issues in turn, but first I will talk about prevention, which was mentioned by my noble friends Lord Farmer and Lady Jenkin and other noble Lords, and about tackling the drivers of abuse so that we can put an end to this appalling crime. The Government want to oversee a fundamental shift in social attitudes towards domestic violence. We need to ensure that all domestic abuse is properly understood, considered unacceptable and actively challenged across statutory agencies and in public attitudes. We are proposing to enshrine a definition of domestic abuse in legislation, to ensure that it is recognised as more than just violence and includes not only emotional and psychological abuse but economic abuse—which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and my noble friend Lady Jenkin said, is an appalling form of abuse that threatens a victim’s economic security and acts as a significant barrier to escaping domestic abuse and rebuilding their lives.
As my noble friends Lady Newlove and Lady Bertin, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, said, we want to act early to equip all young people to have healthy and respectful relationships by helping all schools deliver high-quality relationships education, sex education and PSHE. We want to promote awareness and an improved response across statutory agencies, employers and communities as a whole, so that domestic abuse is rightly recognised as not the victim’s business but everybody’s business.
We want to make it easier for victims to come forward and seek support. We also want the support and protection they receive to enable them to feel safe, to recover and to rebuild their lives. This Government have allocated increased funding of £100 million to support victims of violence against women and girls over this spending review period. This includes funding for a service transformation fund, national helplines, rape support centres and £40 million towards supporting women in crisis, including for refuges. Some £20 million of this funding was announced in the Spring Budget and is specifically for services for domestic abuse victims, £8 million of which will be used to support children who witness domestic abuse and help with their recovery through locally commissioned projects. Some £2 million will support female offenders, 60% of whom we know have experienced domestic abuse themselves. A further £2 million will be used to ensure that victims have better access to support in health settings, and we are seeking views through the consultation on how we should use the final £8 million.
Noble Lords have raised the issue of refuge provision extensively, and I would reassure the House that the Government recognise the critical support that refuges provide to vulnerable people at a time of crisis. We are completely committed to developing a sustainable funding model for refuges and ensuring that there is consistent provision across the country. That is why we are reviewing—I hope this answers many noble Lords’ questions—the way in which refuges and supported housing are delivered. We have heard the need for a sustainable funding model for refuges, which is why we were undertaking a thorough review of commissioning and funding of all domestic abuse services, including refuges in England. We will be working closely with the domestic abuse sector, drawing on its data, knowledge and expertise to make sure that we get this right. That process is ongoing and we have been clear that no options are off the table, as we work with them to ensure that women requiring support in their time of need are not let down.
This goes to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and, I assume, that of other noble Lords. I can guarantee that funding for refuges will continue at the same level as today. We will ring-fence funding for supported housing overall, including refuges, indefinitely. A refuge can be life-saving and we recognise that, when victims of domestic abuse have no option other than to leave their home, a refuge provides a vital place of safety. We have increased bed provision by 10% since 2010, which goes to the point from my noble friend Lady Bertin. Through the proposed Bill and wider programme of work, we also want to do more to intervene early, both with victims and perpetrators, so far fewer victims are forced into the appalling position of having to flee their home and community.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, talked about the implications of universal credit. There is currently a review of the funding model, which will report in the summer. Refuge payments will be made outside of housing benefit and universal credit. As such, we are removing an individual’s liability to pay rent at a vulnerable point in their life.
She also asked about specialist refuges and funding for specialist services. It cannot be right to continue with a system that forces women to cover housing costs themselves, forces them to apply for benefits at a difficult time in their lives and then leaves them with personal debt—we know how important this is. That is why we are not only consulting on short-term support from the accommodation model, but also conducting a thorough review of domestic abuse services to make sure we get this right. This wider review is looking at gaps in provision, including specialist provision, what domestic abuse services need to be available for women to meet their individual circumstances and how we can implement the best system to deliver these services.
We are doing more to support those who have made the decision to leave an abusive situation. The Government’s Secure Tenancies (Victims of Domestic Abuse) Bill will maintain the status of survivors living in social housing with an existing lifetime tenancy when they move to a new social property. I pay tribute again to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, for raising this issue and for her central role in bringing the legislation forward.
My noble friend Lady Jenkin asked about the postcode lottery. Some local authorities are doing a good job, but to improve our understanding of the national picture, we have appointed an external organisation to undertake an audit of all local authority-commissioned domestic abuse services.
I am completely out of time, but my noble friend also asked about support costs. We totally recognise the vital importance of local funding for support services. While it is for local authorities to manage funding according to local priorities, we expect them to provide the right services to local communities, especially for vulnerable and older people. There are myriad other questions that I have not answered because I have got only half way through my answers. I thank noble Lords again for their contributions, and I shall write to noble Lords in answer to questions.
Police: Undercover Officers
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Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what communications they have had, over the last 30 years, with police forces regarding the tactic of undercover police officers forming sexual relationships to develop their cover stories.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, as part of its terms of reference the undercover policing inquiry is investigating the state of awareness of undercover police operations of Her Majesty’s Government since 1968. The Home Office is a core participant in that inquiry and is in the process of making disclosure to the inquiry of material relevant to the terms of reference. The inquiry will report its findings once all the evidence has been reviewed.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
I thank the noble Baroness for her response, which of course was not an answer to my Question. Is she aware that, over a period of 24 years from 1985 to 2009, almost every single year there was a state-sponsored sexual relationship between a police officer and a woman who at no point was accused of doing anything illegal—not arrested, not accused? I just do not understand how the Minister can think that this is all right. This strikes at the heart of the ethics and integrity of our police forces and our security services. I stress that the cases we know about are only the ones we have heard about: those are the only police names in the public realm. Until we know all the names of the undercover police we will not know how many victims there were. I am also concerned about the inquiry. The Minister may know that there was a walkout today by the whole legal team of the women involved and the women themselves. How will the Government restore the credibility of that inquiry?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness says “state-sponsored”. I refer her to the terms of reference of the inquiry, which state that it will,
“ascertain the state of awareness of undercover police operations in Her Majesty’s Government”.
That is precisely what the inquiry was set up to do. As for the walkout today, I have been made aware of that and I am aware that the hearings are still ongoing. I encourage all core participants—indeed, anyone impacted by undercover policing—to participate fully in the inquiry so that we can learn the lessons and get to the truth.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that this is a very serious matter? Notwithstanding anything that comes out of the inquiry and the recommendations that follow, can she confirm that she is absolutely confident that robust procedures are now in place and that it can never happen again?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I would love to stand at the Dispatch Box and say that certain things could never happen again, but nobody can legislate for the odd rogue undertaking or the malicious intent of people. Therefore, one cannot be absolutely certain that it could never happen again. What one can do is put measures in place to ensure, as far as possible, that it never happens again.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that undercover policing is an essential tool in the fight against terrorism and crime and that, provided it is properly regulated and standards are adhered to, we should not judge the majority of very brave police officers who go undercover by the misdeeds of a few?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I completely concur with the noble Lord. He is absolutely right; much crime has been unearthed by the use of undercover policing. As I say, there are now strict rules in place to prevent unacceptable behaviour going on and I could not agree more with him.
Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)
My Lords, we know that this inquiry has already taken three years, and it is expected that it will take another year before the victims get answers—campaigners walking out in protest today notwithstanding. We also know that the Special Demonstration Squad has been disbanded. But it would be naive to think that all embedded undercover work has ceased. What assurances can the Minister give that the culture, practice, instructions to and supervision of undercover officers have already changed to ensure that, as far as is humanly possible, no man or woman will ever be subjected to these practices again?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness makes a very helpful point, because the policing Code of Ethics makes it clear that police officers should not use their professional position to,
“establish or pursue an improper sexual or emotional relationship with a person with whom you come into contact in the course of your work”.
The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 provides the legal framework for the lawful deployment of undercover officers as covert human intelligence sources. We also have the 2014 CHIS codes of practice.
In relation to the length of time that the inquiry has taken, the slight extension to that is purely due to the sheer number of pieces of information it has to look at.
Lord Faulks (Con)
My Lords, I understand that the walkout from the inquiry was because of a sense that it was important that the individual police officers were identified by name. Will the Minister confirm that, by definition, undercover police officers have a cover name, and that, whatever the importance of getting to the bottom of what went on in this inquiry, it is important that they retain anonymity, because that is a pre-eminent part of what they do?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My noble friend is absolutely right—of course, it protects the safety of those people as well.
Lord Soley (Lab)
Will the Minister also confirm that this is not just a matter of rules and regulations? If it went on for so long, there must have been a serious management failure, because the relationship between a senior officer and the person doing the job is crucial in terms of keeping a check on their behaviour. That seems to me—as an outsider—not to have happened, and it is what we ought to focus on.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I would not like to speak for the chair of the inquiry, but I am sure that some of the institutional failures that happened way back in the day will be looked at.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, in the walkout today, the leading QC representing the victims said that it was due to the legal teams not being able to participate in a meaningful way. How have we got to a position where this has been going on for three years and cost £9 million but senior QCs feel they cannot participate in a meaningful way?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the people who walked out will have their reasons for walking out, but I know that the Home Secretary has full confidence in the chairman to carry out the inquiry in a way that gets to the truth of what happened.