Emergency Services Network

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hogan-Howe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report by the National Audit Office Progress delivering the Emergency Services Network, published on 10 May, in particular its finding that the new emergency services communications network may go over budget by at least £3.1 billion.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the emergency services network aims to deliver an ambitious world-leading digital communications network for the emergency services by 2022, resulting in savings of £200 million a year. When fully implemented, its mobile technology and infrastructure will transform the emergency response of police officers, firefighters and ambulance crews. This will result in faster and better treatment for victims.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. The Audit Commission has provided an excoriating judgment on this Home Office-run project. Not only has the cost risen by 49% but the project should have finished in 2019, while it is now hoped that it will finish in 2022. The Audit Commission has no confidence that this project will be delivered, given that a technical solution is not defined, and the police have no confidence. So will the Government guarantee that the extra funds needed for this project—which will be significant—will not be taken from the police, fire or ambulance budgets?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out what the NAO report says. I am not going to sugar-coat the cost and time overruns, but we can take some comfort from the fact that a new team is in place, and the additional costs should ultimately be recouped. But I take the point that a reset is needed, that the project needs to run to time and cost, and that that needs to be done as a priority.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness tell the House who is responsible for this shambles?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there are a number of factors involved in what is not a satisfactory situation. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, I am not going to pretend that it is a satisfactory situation. Some of the technological solutions and the infrastructure have run mainly according to plan, but there is now the testing phase, which is going to be done incrementally. That is probably the right way to do it, so that if any part of it is not running as planned, it can be changed. But there are a multitude of problems, for which a multitude of solutions are needed.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, Motorola owns the current Airwave communications system used by the emergency services, and it is also a main supplier for the new system. It is being paid £1.4 billion to keep the existing system going beyond its contracted date, and stands to benefit even more if the project is delayed further. How did the Home Office get itself into a contract that rewards one of the main suppliers for delays?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What the noble Lord points out is correct. As I said to the noble Lord, currently a change notice is being prepared for signing to reset the situation. I think that Motorola acquired the contract after it had the Airwave contract, rather than at the point when the contract was signed. But a change notice is being issued to try to resolve the situation.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that the Government’s record on procuring high-tech projects is lamentable? Will she consider consulting Mr Ken Livingstone, under whom the very successful congestion charging system was introduced into London without a hitch? He might be able to point her in the right direction of good management.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not sure that even the Labour Party would consult Ken Livingstone if it wanted any advice. The congestion charge was done under Ken Livingstone, and I am sure that there were many good people behind it. On a positive note, this infrastructure project is sorely needed, both in terms of its reach and the potential number of victims it can get to. As a result of the upgrade to 4G and 5G it will have reach underground and from surface to air—therefore, there is no going back on it. But, as I said, we need this reset and I am glad that the change notice is being issued.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, will the £3 billion overspend come from existing policing budgets or is it being found centrally? When I looked at this three years ago, I could not find a single serving emergency service officer at senior or junior level who had any confidence in this system. Has that changed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the team that will be responsible for delivering it has changed, and I know that the Permanent Secretary is taking personal responsibility for its delivery as well. The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out the £3 billion, which is a very large sum; it is hoped that the savings that are realised will go towards mitigating that loss.

Victims of Crime: Mobile Phone Data

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consultation took place before the introduction of a consent form to allow police to access mobile phone content of complainants of offences; and how proportionality will be achieved.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the National Police Chiefs’ Council and the Crown Prosecution Service consulted a number of stakeholder organisations on the development of a national consent form. The CPS has issued guidance on the examination of mobile devices, making it clear that decisions should be made on a case-by-case basis in the pursuit of reasonable lines of inquiry. A commitment has been made to engage with stakeholders further on the form and guidance.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am encouraged by the noble Baroness’s reply. The standardisation of consent forms has caused real concern, not least among police and crime commissioners. As a former criminal law practitioner, I know as a fact how difficult it is to get convictions in the probably around 90% of cases where the defence of someone known to the victim is consent, as opposed to an attack by a complete stranger. Will the Attorney-General, who appears to have agreed the new forms, take personal charge of any review to ensure proportionality, and can we hope that disclosure problems will be substantially reduced and that there will be more successful prosecutions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

First, I commend the noble and learned Lord. Despite his efforts the other day, he was not able to get in when I answered the Urgent Question—or it may have been a Statement. However, he has now asked his Question and I am able to focus on it. He is absolutely right to raise the issue of consent. The JSC does not specifically cover consent but there is a discussion on privacy issues and its recommendation on this issue is, essentially, to have good guidance. The noble and learned Lord mentioned guidance and I will quote from the Select Committee’s report, which said:

“It is important that those who come forward to report serious offences, particularly those of a sexual or otherwise sensitive nature, are treated by investigators with respect and sensitivity. Their personal information should be handled in the same way and in accordance with their rights to privacy, where that is consistent with the interests of justice. The law is clear in that the right to a fair trial is an absolute right which cannot be violated to protect the right to privacy. We heard differing views on whether disclosing certain private information was always necessary to uphold the right to a fair trial, and this emphasises the need for clear guidance on this point”.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, if social media indicates consent to sexual activity between the two individuals concerned, both before and after an alleged sexual offence, surely it would be proportionate to examine it and disclose it. Trawling social media for patterns of behaviour would surely not be proportionate, as it does not tend to prove or disprove the matter at issue: namely, whether consent was given on the occasion in question. Does the Minister not agree?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes an important distinction between trawling social media and identifying evidence that could be used in a trial. As I said to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, the NPCC and the CPS have invited a number of organisations to discuss their concerns around this, and I am sure that what the noble Lord talked about will come up in these discussions.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

The noble Baroness’s responses have given us clear evidence of how much thought she has given to this difficult issue. Does she agree that consistency is very important? For years now, it has not been permissible for defence lawyers to cross-examine complainants about the clothes they wear or their sexual history without there being a clear evidential basis for doing so and the permission of the judge. Should we not be consistent and ensure that we protect the privacy of complainants, after a gross invasion may have taken place of their most essential privacy, and allow the trawling of electronic material only where there is a proper evidential basis for doing so?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord takes us back some years—we spoke about it earlier—to when judges or lawyers might refer to the clothes that somebody was wearing almost as evidence that they had not been sexually assaulted. Consistency is important. Having your mobile phone taken from you, albeit with consent, feels like a huge intrusion. It is clear in the guidance that it should not happen in all cases or as a matter of course, and sometimes your mobile phone should not need to be taken away from you at all. So these further conversations will start to develop the thinking about how we can be consistent in this area.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)]

My Lords, there has been a lot of misinformation about the consent forms, which is having the worrying effect of victims not wanting to come forward—and, as we all know, it is difficult to get victims to come forward anyway. What can be done to make sure that information about what the consent forms are and how they work is properly put out there so that victims can feel safe when they come forward about filling them in?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for raising this point, because victims coming forward is at the heart of what we are trying to encourage in such a sensitive area as sexual assault. Historically, victims have been unwilling to come forward and we do not want anything that they might have read in the press that is misleading to discourage them from doing so. I am very pleased that the police and the CPS are going to engage further with victims’ groups and I hope that this can be resolved to the extent that victims feel that they can come forward.

Gender Pay Gaps

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to require employers to publish action plans relating to their gender pay gaps which include (1) a long-term strategy on how they will close such gaps, (2) how such progress will be monitored, and (3) the requirement to publish the results of that progress.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we are thrilled that over 10,000 employers have published their gender pay gap reports for a second year, but what matters now is the action that they take to close that gap. I urge all employers to publish an action plan detailing what they are doing to address the pay gap and to use the Government Equalities Office guidance on identifying effective actions to do so. Since employers publish their figures annually, we will track their progress and hold them to account.

[Baroness Gale (Lab)]

While I thank the Minister very much for her reply and for the fact that she will be urging employers to publish action plans, is she aware that the figures supplied for the reporting deadline in April showed that the gender pay gap has failed to improve in the past year? Every industry continues to pay men on average more than women, and the average gap dropped by only 0.1% over the year. One of the key drivers of the gender pay gap is that there are fewer women employed in senior and higher-paid positions. Much more needs to be done by employers to encourage and to promote women to top positions. Does the Minister agree that the Government should require employers to publish action plans and ensure that they are accountable and transparent, with meaningful sanctions put in place for those who do not comply? Without this requirement, progress will be very slow. Does she agree that women have waited a very long time for this gap to close, so surely now is the time for much more progress to be made on the gender pay gap, which would be beneficial not only to women but to the economy and society?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly agree that women have waited an awfully long time not only for these regulations to come into force but for the gender pay gap to narrow. The noble Baroness said that the GPG has not narrowed. It has narrowed marginally—not enough, and there is more to do—but it is quite pleasing that there are 366 employers who, though they do not have to produce a gender pay gap return, have done so in this second reporting year. Last year, 48% of employers produced an action plan, which is very pleasing indeed. The Government have provided an online toolkit, and there have been 14,000 views of that online. We are slowly moving in the right direction, but we must remember that what we have done is ground-breaking globally.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, the Royal Statistical Society has found that the government system used to report pay gaps is flawed in some important respects, open to gaming and very difficult for people to understand. Can the Government please look at this and consider implementing some of the recommendations, such as introducing online gender pay gap reporting calculators with built-in sanity checks, to ensure accurate reporting and prevent implausible entries?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right to point out that accurate reporting is crucial to understanding what organisations are doing to reduce the gender pay gap and crucial to ensuring that there is no gaming of the system, as she points out. Based on our research with employers, we know that the majority were able to understand the gender pay gap reporting system and are correctly reporting their data; 95% are reporting ahead of the deadline, which is very good news indeed. As she knows, the EHRC is responsible for enforcing the regulations and is looking at any statistically improbable data. The Government Equalities Office has already implemented some of the recommendations from the Royal Statistical Society’s report—so I thank the noble Baroness for raising the issue—including improvements to the guidance and the statistical sanity checks.

[Lord Boateng (Lab)]

Will the Government, in the interests of fairness and equality, make the same demands of employers in relation to ethnicity as they do in relation to gender? There is plenty of evidence to indicate that black and ethnic minority people suffer equally, if not worse, from disparity when it comes to employment pay and prospects.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord very much for raising that. I do not disagree with him that BAME representation, not only in organisations but also on things such as FTSE 100 boards and FTSE 250 boards, is diabolical. We always saw gender pay gap reporting as a start on this journey—which is absolutely not to dismiss the noble Lord’s point that we have an awful lot further to go.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in her initial Answer, the Minister talked about holding businesses to account. Can she set out what sanctions the Government have to hold businesses to account and what thresholds they will use when they apply those sanctions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, the EHRC has enforcement powers if people are misreporting or not reporting at all. Although the story so far has been very good, with almost 100% compliance, sanctions are within the EHRC’s powers.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, to what extent is the gender pay gap distorted by the number of people, often very senior, who are masquerading as self-employed when they are working for large organisations? They are missed out of the figures altogether. Is not the only answer that individual tax returns should be in the public domain, as they are in other countries? Then we could pin all this down once and for all.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord has raised this before. There is not agreement across the House about such intrusion into people’s personal data. We often talk about data protection and privacy of data. He is right to point out that there are certain cohorts of people for whom pay data is not required because they are not employees—they might be partners and therefore not salaried—but the good thing about gender pay gap reporting is that it is done on a quartile basis, so that one can see at each level of the organisation where the disparities lie.

Freedom of Movement

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will produce a comprehensive list of (1) the type of, and (2) the reasons for, movement between the United Kingdom and the European Economic Area countries under Freedom of Movement and related provisions, as defined by the Treaty on the European Union, the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, information on the different types of free movement rights available within the European Economic Area can be found on the European Commission website. The Office for National Statistics already publishes information on the reasons for migration to the UK by EEA nationals in its quarterly report on long-term international migration statistics.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. However, even taken together, all the documentation does not give us the big picture when it comes to the mobility impact of Brexit, depending of course on how much will be left of our participation in the internal market—some of it or none of it. Right across the international services sector, significant numbers of firms are now considering moving lock, stock and barrel to places such as Amsterdam. Will Her Majesty’s Government urgently produce a Green Paper by the end of this month on the options, with some range of likely impacts and the numbers likely to be involved, getting practical feedback from the industry sector and umbrella bodies such as the TUC and the CBI?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in any scenario—deal or no deal—there will be a transitional period until the end of 2020 to give businesses time to adjust. In a deal scenario, free movement will continue during the implementation period, but in a no-deal scenario, the Government’s European temporary leave to remain scheme will enable EU workers to continue to come to the UK visa-free for three years. On the question of the Green Paper, in December last year, the Government published a White Paper setting out our proposals for the UK’s future skills-based immigration system after our exit from the EU, taking as a starting point the MAC’s recommendations.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, should we not also focus on the fact that this Government are stealing from British citizens the freedom to live, work, study or retire in another EU country? Can the Minister explain why the Prime Minister talks misleadingly about ending free movement as “taking back control of our borders”? She was perfectly capable three years ago of explaining that passport checks, which we can and will continue to impose as we are outside Schengen, sit compatibly alongside the freedom to move to work without red tape. They are not the same thing.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not sure what the question was there. As for stealing UK citizens’ rights, from a UK point of view we have made provision for EU citizens’ rights in the UK. It is clearly up to individual member states how they reciprocally deal with that.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, surely the central issue here is that freedom of movement is tied up with the delivery of services. Service industries, which dominate our economy, can trade effectively only if their personnel can be moved. It is not just a question of border control; every service industry, from banking to ballet dancing, needs to move people across borders. The problem is that in any future deal—for example, as set out in the political declaration—the two issues of mobility and access to the single market by the service industries are separated. It is time that the Government brought those two strategies together, otherwise the bulk of our service industries will suffer.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right: it is absolutely clear that we need an environment friendly to businesses both at home and abroad, and “abroad” will include the EU when we leave it. Our immigration system will be skills-based. We want the brightest and best to come to this country to work, study and live. That is why we consulted the MAC on our future system.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, have the Government done any work to quantify the economic and social disadvantage that citizens of the UK will suffer by losing the right to live, work and study anywhere in the European Union as a result of being a citizen of a member state, in comparison to any other arrangements that may be put in place in future?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord has asked me a question that is a little out of the Home Office’s purview. Until a deal is done, it is very difficult to tell what the future economic landscape will look like, and in fact the best way to advantage the economy is to get a deal done.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, why have the Government still not taken full advantage of the various provisions that exist under free movement to member states to return people who do not have a job, as the Belgians do? Given that we are still in the European Union until 31 October and will be under European legislation until the end of 2020 or perhaps longer, why are the Government not taking advantage of the flexibility within European free movement?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will of course correct me after Questions when I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the Government are fully abiding by the provisions under EU law and will continue to do so until we leave the EU.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

But does the noble Baroness not accept that for certain sectors where income levels are low, particularly tourism and care homes, there is a real danger of losing key staff? What provisions do the Government have to make up for that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Obviously the tourism industry is incredibly important, particularly where we sit in London. It is hugely vibrant. As I said, we consulted the MAC on longer-term migration. There is of course a trial period that we have already articulated for short-term work in the UK.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, why are the Government making it difficult for EU citizens living in the United Kingdom to exercise the right to vote in the European elections?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord strays into another department again with election law. Election law is quite firmly fixed. I would have to refer to—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

You are speaking for the Government.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am speaking for the Government on Home Office matters.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am speaking on a range of matters today, actually. The noble Lord is talking about election law, which precludes certain EU members from voting in local elections.

Places of Worship: Protective Security Funding

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement given by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in the other place about security in our places of worship:

“Yesterday marked the start of Ramadan, a peaceful time of prayer and reflection. Throughout the holy month, Muslims will come together in mosques to celebrate. The tragic events in Christchurch, New Zealand, will never be far from their minds, and the 51 innocent souls who were slaughtered in March will be remembered in many prayers. A terrorist gunned down these Muslim men, women and children as they paid respects to their God. A few weeks later, Christians were massacred by terrorists in Sri Lankan churches as they observed their faith on Easter Sunday. More victims were targeted in hotels, with over 250 lives lost. Just days ago, a gunman stormed a synagogue near San Diego, killing an innocent woman on the last day of Passover. Each one of those atrocities was heartbreaking and tragic, and my thoughts are with every single person affected. I know the House will join me in condemning these hate-fuelled attacks on our freedoms and values.

This slaughter has sent shockwaves through our religious communities. People are understandably worried. Many members of my own family contacted me after Christchurch to seek reassurance and to ask, ‘Just what are you doing to stop this happening here?’ With your permission, I would like to answer this today to provide some much-needed reassurance.

There can be no doubt that people are being targeted because of their religion—in terrorist attacks around the world, yes, but also in vile hate crimes on the streets of this country: sledgehammer attacks on mosques, a Christian preacher spat at in the street and a brick thrown through a glass synagogue door. I condemn all these attacks with every fibre of my being. No one should be targeted because of what they believe. Everyone, of every faith, deserves the right to observe their religion without fear, and we are doing all we can to ensure that this remains the case in the UK and that our fundamental values are preserved.

Allow me to update the House on some of the work under way to protect our religious freedom. First, I have increased the places of worship protective security fund to £1.6 million for 2019-20—double the amount awarded last year. Expressions of interest are now open for the next round of the fund, which will open in July. Since the scheme launched in 2016, over £1.5 million has already been awarded, with 63 grants to churches, 49 to mosques, five to Hindu temples and 17 to gurdwaras. They have paid for security equipment such as CCTV, security lighting, new locks or fences. Many more places of worship will now benefit after we made it even easier to apply this year, by removing the need to find multiple quotes and contractors. A separate £14 million grant also provides security for Jewish schools and synagogues against terror attacks.

Secondly, a new £5 million fund will provide security training for places of worship across England and Wales. This funding will support the physical security measures provided by the places of worship fund. It will share best practice and help faith organisations understand how best to protect their worshippers.

Thirdly, we are consulting religious communities on what more can and should be done to help them. We will shortly announce a programme of engagement to help us understand what they need and how to make it work in a faith setting. This listening exercise will inform how the £5 million security training fund is spent to ensure that it is effective, and it will help ascertain how we can best protect worshippers.

Fourthly, we are providing immediate help with a Ramadan package of support for mosques. We know that Muslims are anxious for their safety after the atrocity in Christchurch and that tensions are heightened during religious festivals, so we are supporting faith associates to provide security training and advice for the Islamic holy month. Support is being given in 12 workshops around England and Wales and guidance is being distributed to over 2,000 mosques, community centres and madrassas.

Finally, our world-class police provide vital protection to all places of worship. Patrols near mosques were stepped up following the Christchurch attack to provide much-needed reassurance, and the police increase activity around religious festivals and holy days, including the Ramadan period. Our security services work tirelessly to disrupt all terror threats to this country. This includes tackling the growing threat from the far right, with four such terrorist plots disrupted since the beginning of 2017. We are also using a range of other powers to tackle the threat of terrorism and extremism in this country.

Our robust hate crime legislation has seen far-right influencers jailed for a range of offences, including religiously aggravated harassment. As Home Secretary I can exclude a foreign national from entering the UK if I believe their presence would not be conducive to the public good—a power I can, and do, use to stop hate preachers stirring up tension here; I have excluded eight since I became Home Secretary. Our Prevent and Building a Stronger Britain Together programmes work with and through local communities to challenge terrorist or extremist ideologies—from Islamist to the far right.

Together, this comprehensive package of support provides protection for all our places of worship. We know that there are deep and genuine concerns in religious communities; we know that people are feeling vulnerable and scared. But have no doubt: I am listening to these concerns and responding. The diversity of this country—our shared values of tolerance and respect—is what makes us truly great. We will never allow those who seek to divide us to win. The freedom to practise any religion or none is a cornerstone of our democratic society. People must have the peace of mind to worship without fear, and I am doing everything in my power to make this possible. I commend this Statement to the House”.

That concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. She repeated the Home Secretary’s four specific items. I thought that the third, which was,

“consulting religious communities on what more can and should be done to help them”,

might have been the first one in the list. The amounts of money which are mentioned are welcome, but they are very small when one compares them to the cost to the community of an attack—any sort of attack, but particularly a major attack. The aim must be to eliminate religious hatred.

The focus of this Statement—I do not think it pretends to be otherwise—seems to be on relatively low-level physical security. I believe that the maximum grant, if that is the right term, that has been made is £56,000. Will the Minister tell the House the average, more or less, level of grant that has been given recently—it will be 80% of the total cost of the work proposed—and what can be achieved by that sort of money? I do not know how much CCTV costs; that may be the best of the physical arrangements.

I have a couple of questions for the Minister about the application form on the Home Office website. There are questions about the building, asking whether:

“The exterior and interior … is in a good state of repair and look well maintained”,


whether there is “natural surveillance”—I am not sure what that means—and whether it is in a conservation area. What is the relevance of some of these questions? There are questions about security measures, such as whether personal injury or assault has been experienced in the past 12 months and whether the building is,

“visible and identifiable as a place of worship? e.g. Symbolism/description on exterior of building, building dominate town or hidden away etc”.

My reaction on reading that is that we should be loud and proud about faiths which are practised. Again, will the Minister tell the House the purpose of such questions?

Five million pounds is proposed over three years for training. I appreciate that the Community Security Trust is outside this scheme, but I mention it because I was struck by an email circulated to members of my synagogue asking for volunteers to come forward for specific levels of training, and I realised how much these groups depend on volunteers. Is the Home Office satisfied that all communities that need training will be able to access this funding?

Like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I want to ask about the Prevent programme, which is mentioned. What progress is there with the review that is to be undertaken? Will the Minister assure the House that it will be independent and that community organisations and civil society, including of course faith organisations and faith communities, will be given every opportunity to contribute evidence?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank both noble Lords for their comments. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what elements of the funding are new or not new. The £1.6 million in the Statement is not new money. It will be released in July. The £5 million funding is also not a new announcement and will be released in this financial year. As the noble Lord may have heard my right honourable friend the Home Secretary say, the Ramadan package is new. A £50,000 pre-Ramadan training package has already started and an additional £7,000 will be available during Ramadan. As he heard me say, Faith Associates was chosen to do that. There will be a training package in place for communities that need it, which will be aligned with the places of worship scheme.

The noble Lord commented that this is not just about buildings. He is absolutely right—. Just securing a building will not create confidence or put the minds of communities at rest. I do not know whether he recalls it, but the reassurance that was provided by the police following the “punish a Muslim” letter was exemplary. Communities up and down the country were very grateful for that, and the police will be doing the same over Ramadan. I mentioned £5 million over three years for security training. We are most grateful for the work of Tell MAMA and the CST. Touching slightly on what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, the two work together because a problem for one community often reflects itself in a problem for another community.

The noble Lord also touched upon the online world and how it is so invidious in hooking people into areas of extremism or terrorism. Of course, he will know that the online harms White Paper has now been published, and I look forward to the introduction of the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, rightly pointed out that communities are at the heart of all that we do. The Building a Stronger Britain Together projects that we do with civil society groups have proved very beneficial in moving them to promote integration and cohesion within communities.

Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, talked about the Prevent review. We committed to do it in 2019 and I am sure that further details of it will come forward. I do not have them at my fingertips now, so I will not pretend to know every single aspect. However, one thing that should not be forgotten in the context of Prevent is that the rise of the far right has seen almost 50% of referrals to the Channel programme being related to far-right concerns. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said that the consultation should have come first. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary did not list the four things in order of importance, but of course consultation with community groups is at the heart of what we do.

The noble Baroness asked about the size of the grants and talked about it being a relatively small fund. However, when you put together the £5 million training package and double the funding for this year, plus the Ramadan funding, it is not an insubstantial amount. I cannot give her the average size of the grant because I do not know it, but I shall try to find out for her in due course.

She also talked about some of the funny things on the application form. As she listed them, I reflected on why you would need to know whether the institution in question was in a conservation area. I surmise that it is because you would need to know what you can stick on the outside of or put around buildings. Certainly, whether a building is secluded or in full sight will influence the risk assessment. Similarly, a building in a poor state of repair is clearly more of a security risk. Basically, it allows an assessment of risk.

The noble Baroness talked about the £5 million-worth of training and asked whether all communities that need training will get it. I really hope that communities that need it will come forward. The consultation will be online very shortly. I know that organisations such as the CST and Tell MAMA are fully engaged when it comes to working with each other, so there will be community involvement and participation. I look forward to the details of the consultation coming online in due course.

[The Lord Bishop of Rochester]

My Lords, I too am very grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement from the other place. From these Benches, I welcome it and echo some of the things that have already been said by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, not least about the wider context, although I recognise that this Statement has a limited focus.

The Minister has already observed the tragic events in Christchurch, Sri Lanka and San Diego. It seems to me that one of the learnings from those events is the impossibility of predicting where, or even when, a dreadful event might occur. With that in mind, I am particularly grateful for the broadening of the eligibility criteria in relation to potential grants from the fund, whereby it is now not necessary for places of worship to have experienced an incident of hate crime in order to make an application. That is an important loosening around the unpredictability of where things might occur.

Speaking specifically for the Church of England, we have hitherto been pleased to assist, through our Cathedral and Church Buildings division, with some of the practicalities of administering the scheme by sitting on the advisory panel that assesses the applications. Clearly, we would be willing to continue doing that and, as one of the better resourced faith communities, to make a contribution. I hope that the Minister will confirm that that participation, not only from the Church of England but from other religious communities, will still be welcomed in helping the process to work.

There are a couple of things on which I would welcome further comment from the Minister. One has already been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser —that is, the balance between ensuring security and maintaining welcome and openness. Clearly, that is a daily concern for our cathedrals and other nationally significant places of worship of different faith traditions, but it is also relevant for what one might call the humbler, local ones. Reference has already been made to the role of volunteers in making sure that buildings remain open. It seems that continued engagement is needed on how to get the balance right between, on the one hand, openness and accessibility and, on the other, the security of both buildings and persons.

I have a final observation and question on the security of persons. I am conscious that some religious leaders in the public eye—I am not thinking particularly of people like me—might be at greater risk precisely when they are not within their place of worship. I am thinking particularly of those who have perhaps had a high public profile over some issue or over something that they have said. It is when they are at home, with their family or in other settings that the risks might be greater. Is consideration being given to support in terms of security in the homes of the public religious leaders of faith communities?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for those questions. Starting with his last question first, the real benefit of the consultation is that people—including, I am sure, the right reverend Prelate himself—can point out some of the wider risks that we have not perhaps considered in deliberating on the security of not just places of worship but the people who worship there and those who lead people in worship.

He mentioned the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, which I neglected to deal with—that is, the balance between security and being welcome and open. People go to places of worship for such a wide range of reasons. We all know the role that the Church has played throughout history through the various operations it facilitates for people who are hungry, homeless, need refuge for the night or just an ear to listen, which is one of the most important things the clergy does. It is always so sad when a church or other place of worship is closed for security reasons. The right reverend Prelate has made a very good point. I know that he is not making a pitch but an offer from the Church of England, and I thank him for the help that it has given with the administration of funding so far.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating this Statement. Three years ago, I reviewed London’s preparedness for a major terrorist incident and had some consultation meetings with faith communities. Complacency may be the wrong word, but I was concerned about the sense that came across from so many of the faith communities that “This would not happen to us because we are good people”, and therefore their unwillingness even to contemplate it. As the right reverend Prelate just said, anyone can be a target. Every faith has been a target somewhere in the world—many in this country.

I was slightly concerned that this is a Statement made by the Home Office as much for show as for reality. This is not new money—the Minister has told us that. Spending £1.6 million between the country’s 60,000 places of worship equals £26 each, which does not buy much in the way of CCTV or physical preventions. If it was just applied to one community, maybe it would be a little bit more. The Minister could not tell us what the average sum spent in the previous round was. According to the Statement, £1.5 million was spent on 134 places of worship, so that was £11,000 per place of worship. Spreading this amount of money and saying that it will target all communities and all places of worship is ambitious, and I therefore wonder what the purpose of this Statement has been, other than to demonstrate that the Home Secretary is doing something.

One of my report’s specific recommendations was that advice and encouragement should be given to every place of worship. If a parochial church, a mosque or a temple has a committee, one member of that committee should be designated to take responsibility for security, to look at the arrangements, to do some general planning and to liaise with the police about what could be done in the event of an attack on that place of worship. Will the Minister pick that up?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for his points and pay tribute to the work that he did, some of which has been subject to questions from myself. He talks about complacency. I think it is fair to say that we are all complacent until something happens to us—we never quite think that it will. He asks whether this is all for show. No, it is not. As we go into the holy month of Ramadan, there are people who are concerned, and I think it absolutely right to reiterate what is and what will be available to them and to give them reassurance.

The noble Lord states the average and says that it is not much, but there will be different amounts within that. Some will have got more, some might even have got less, depending upon the needs. I do not think, so far as I know, that needs have not been met; that is the most important thing. Of course, if demand changes, that will be considered. He makes a very valid point about advice being given to every place of worship. I do not know what advice is given to places of worship, but it is certainly a good suggestion, as is the idea that a specific person might be responsible for it. Of course, the right reverend Prelate might pipe up and say that in fact this already happens, but I thank the noble Lord for his suggestion.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, may I put two points to the Minister? First, the timely and speedy use of intelligence, which has not always been the case in some other countries, is something that we must maintain and ensure. Secondly, with the many thousands of places of worship, the role of volunteers—which has been emphasised by several noble Lords—is absolutely crucial. It is perhaps worth reflecting that in the context of safeguarding against the abuse of children and vulnerable people, those of us who hold office in churches are nowadays required to attend training, particularly to alert us to what might be the signs of a threat or a danger to children or other vulnerable people. There is something of a model there for training volunteers in places of worship in how to spot what might be a dangerous situation, and what would be a sensible and prudent course of action for them to take.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord precisely lays out some of the training being done and that will be offered over the next three years. It is not just putting CCTV on buildings. He is absolutely right that intelligence is vital and that in the Church of England, the Muslim community and the Jewish community, which all rely on volunteers—some of their institutions would close without them—those volunteers should be trained and safeguarding measures should be put in place.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, can I come back to the point that my noble friend Lady Hamwee made regarding the bureaucratic nature of the application process? If you are local, whether somewhere is hidden or not you will know about it. Whether it is in a conservation area is irrelevant; it is that particular conservation area, for example, which will determine what will need to be put up and whether it will be granted by the planning authorities. It is not national. I therefore ask the Minister in a spirit of friendliness to go away and look at this, because it is bureaucratic. Can she look at making it a little more light touch, and work out which questions are needed centrally and which are local?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was trying to be helpful to the noble Baroness but the noble Lord makes a perfectly reasonable point. The funding has taken slightly longer to come on-stream than we anticipated for precisely that reason. We wanted to cut down on some of the bureaucracy that holds people back from making these applications, so that point is well made.

House adjourned at 7.31 pm.

Identity Cards

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further discussions they have had, and with whom, about the benefits of the introduction of identity cards.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have previously stated that the introduction of identity cards would be prohibitively expensive and would represent a substantial erosion of civil liberties. This remains our position and, as such, we have held no further discussions on the introduction of identity cards.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, do not last week’s appalling statistics on the screening out by police forces of up to 80% of crimes such as burglary, mugging, theft, fraud, dangerous driving and even sexual offences ring alarm bells in government despite what the Minister has just said, and suggest that a national review is required of the investigative tools available to the police? Could such a review not consider the benefits of ID cards and protocols for the recording of fingerprints, iris recognition and even DNA, which would greatly help the police in the fight against crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Of course the things the noble Lord mentioned latterly are all tools in the police’s armoury in investigating and dealing with criminals. Incorporating that into an ID card that embraces all those things goes against civil liberties. We believe that identity should be provided for the purpose for which it is needed, not for everything but just for a single event.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

Does my noble friend recollect that I have frequently said that the priority is not so much an identity card as a secure, reliable identity number to take the place of the unreliable, insecure, deeply corrupt national insurance numbers, national health numbers and so on? When will Ministers start to challenge the stubbornness of the Home Office in refusing to consider these issues? We had a disgraceful example of that stubbornness in the debate yesterday, with the point-blank refusal even to consider taking the necessary action to restore the reputation of Sir Edward Heath, which was trashed in Wiltshire.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not sure how my noble friend’s two points tie together. He talks about an identity number, and of course a national insurance number is a form of identity number. Certainly it proves a person’s right to work in this country. I am not sure how a separate national identity number would add to the mix; nor am I sure how my noble friend thinks that national insurance numbers are corrupt, unless he is saying that they are used corruptly, but I am sure that the same would also potentially be true of national identity numbers.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the police are trialling new fingerprint technology that allows police officers to use their smartphones to identify people in less than a minute if they have a criminal record. Heathrow Airport is introducing voluntary facial recognition instead of passports and boarding passes. Does the Minister agree that identity cards are a bit old hat, as is the legislation to control the use of facial recognition and other biometric recognition, which is in urgent need of attention?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes a very good point about the new technologies that the police and airports are using. I heard about the trial of facial imagery at Heathrow Airport. Now, every time you go through a gate at an airport, a machine recognises you by your face. However, he is absolutely right that the governance of the use of facial imagery, fingerprints and the new emerging technologies has to be looked at very carefully.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

Does the noble Baroness’s department have a corporate memory of the fact that during the war we had identity cards for three purposes? Soon after the war, these were extended to around 50 purposes. As a result, we had a bonfire of ID cards in about 1952, for very good reasons. We are not a country that likes being controlled by various authoritarian people.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Earl is absolutely right, and that was at the heart of our reason, in the coalition years, for resisting the idea of ID cards. He will of course know that I do not remember the war.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the pass I am wearing is a very useful identity card in a sense but that we rely more on the skills of the doorkeepers and the people who know us, rather than this identity card? Would it not be better to have a card that identified the holder with the card? It would then be a biometric identity card and would clearly identify, at a minute’s notice, people coming into the country and people stopped by the police. It would be far better than what we have at the moment. Passports have biometric information on them and we use them, so how do identity cards differ? Clearly, they would help in the fight against terrorism and serious crime.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I disagree with the noble Lord that it would clearly help in the fight against terrorism. As we have seen in Europe, certainly over the last few years, identity cards are widespread but this has not helped in the fight against terrorism. The noble Lord talks about his pass and he is absolutely right: this pass is a specific thing for a specific purpose and, yes, the doormen are incredibly vigilant in the work they do, for which I have the greatest respect. But he describes why identity cards would probably not be a good thing.

Overseas Students: TOEIC Tests

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given by my right honourable friend the Immigration Minister to an Urgent Question in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, test centres operated on behalf of ETS were the subject of a BBC ‘Panorama’ programme in February 2014 which aired footage of the systematic cheating in English language tests at a number of its UK test centres. Further investigation demonstrated just how widespread this was. Its scale is shown by the fact that 25 people involved in organising and facilitating language test fraud have received criminal convictions. They have been sentenced to a total of over 70 years’ imprisonment, and further criminal investigations are ongoing.

There was also a strong link to wider abuse of the student visa route. An NAO report of 2012 made it clear that abuse of that route was rife and estimated that in its first year of operation, 2009, up to 50,000 used the tier 4 student route to work, not study. Most students linked to the fraud were sponsored by private colleges, many of which the Home Office already had significant concerns about, predating the BBC investigation. Indeed, 400 colleges which had sponsored students linked to ETS had already had their licences revoked before 2014.

Over the course of 2014, ETS systematically analysed all tests taken in the UK dating back to 2011—over 58,000 of them. Analysis of the test results identified 33,725 invalid results and 22,694 questionable results. Those with questionable results were given the chance to resit a test or attend an interview before any action was taken. People who used invalid ETS test certificates to obtain immigration leave have had action taken against them.

The courts have consistently found that the evidence for invalid cases created a reasonable suspicion of fraud and was enough for the Home Office to act upon. It is then up to individuals, through either appeals or judicial reviews, to refute this. Despite this, concerns have been expressed about whether innocent people could have been caught up in this. The Home Secretary has listened to the apprehensions of some Members, including the honourable member for East Ham, and has asked officials for further advice. The National Audit Office is also currently in the process of concluding an investigation into the handling of these issues. This is expected to be published next month. Obviously, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has taken a close interest in this issue and will be reviewing the conclusions of the NAO, and, once he has time to consider it in full, will be making a Statement to the House”.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer to an Urgent Question in another place.

In his first appearance in that capacity in the Commons about a year ago, the Home Secretary gave an assurance that he would investigate the Test of English for International Communication scandal. Why are we still awaiting a decision when about 34,000 student visas have been cancelled? The delay cannot be laid at the door of the NAO, as the Answer to the UQ appears to suggest. Is the Home Secretary aware of the damage, distress and loss caused to international students wrongly accused of cheating in their English language test, some of whom have had to end their studies and some of whom have been wrongly deported?

Is the Secretary of State continuing to rely on evidence from Educational Testing Services as to the alleged scale of cheating—evidence which has been discredited by both expert opinion and, repeatedly, in the courts? What was the financial settlement reached by the Home Office and ETS after its licence was revoked? ETS thinks that just about everyone who sat the test either cheated or had questionable results, a figure that was as unbelievable as ETS itself appears to be. How many appeals have been heard against revocation, refusal or curtailment of student visas on TOEIC grounds, and how many have been won by the applicants?

Finally, what lessons has the Home Office learned from this debacle about English language tests and its hostile environment policy, which is obviously still in play? If I cannot have full answers to these questions today, I should be grateful for a written response.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord and welcome him back to his place on the Front Bench. He asked several questions, the first being “Why the delay?” This is an issue of widespread fraud—setting up and using these test centres and colleges— that took place over several years. He will know that, under this Government and indeed under the coalition Government, we have now closed more than 900 such colleges since 2011.

On those who may be wrongly accused, the noble Lord will recall the report by Professor Peter French, which concluded that the number of false matches was likely to be very small and that the system would give people the benefit of the doubt, so the number of people wrongly accused was likely to be extremely low. The courts have always said, even when finding against the Home Office on individual facts of case, that sufficient evidence should be there to make an accusation of fraud, but it is up to the individual then to rebut it. However, we recognise the concerns; we do not refute the concerns raised by a Member of the other place. That is why the Home Secretary has now asked for further advice and why the NAO is also investigating, and the Home Secretary will respond when he has sight of both that advice and the NAO’s findings.

The noble Lord asked whether a settlement was reached. It was. For reasons of commercial confidentiality, I cannot discuss that, but I will see whether I can find out more for him.

The noble Lord also talked about the hostile environment. This is not about being hostile to people who want to work or study in this country. To use a study visa in order to work is to try to game the system, which is exactly what was going on here and why we closed down so many of those colleges.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, Fatema Chowdhury came to the UK from Bangladesh in 2010 and finished her law degree in 2014 at the University of London. She was at one stage detained for a week after being accused of cheating in the English test, which she denies. I appreciate that the Minister cannot comment on individual cases, but can she say how likely it is that an individual had to cheat in an English language test but then went on to successfully complete a double degree at the University of London? Why is the hostile environment towards immigrants created by the Home Office still alive and kicking?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the issue at the heart of this was not the questioning of people’s competence in English but the fact that a fraud was committed. I cannot say to the noble Lord how many people found themselves in detention, because we do not disaggregate those sorts of figures. Of course, as for individual cases, I am not at liberty to discuss them.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, I am entirely prepared to await the reports now under consideration which the Minister says will be the object of Statements in both Houses when their conclusions are reached, but could we please not elide the action taken quite correctly by the coalition Government to close down a huge number of dodgy language schools—which all of us strongly supported and where we believe a good job was done—with what is going now? Let us start a little bit later than that and see what is being done now. For example—perhaps the Minister could reply to this, too—it is not sensible to create the impression that a huge number of people on education visas are overstaying. We now have statistical evidence that it is a tiny number, yet for years Home Office Ministers stood at the Dispatch Box saying that it was a huge number. The interest of our universities, which are a major national asset, was not well served by stories of the sort that we are hearing now. As I said, it is perfectly reasonable for the Minister to say, “Wait, please, till the NAO has reported; wait till the Home Secretary has had a glance at that”, but can we not rake over all these old stories when we come to the report but start from somewhere a little nearer the present time?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that point, because we need to start from where we are now. The system in place was a very old one and, as he said, the coalition Government did much to close down those dodgy colleges, as he called them. The same NAO found that well over 97% of students are compliant with their visas, which is very good news. We would not want to conflate our welcome for those coming to this country to study with what was a very dodgy process—fraudulent, in fact. I welcome what the noble Lord said, and I would not want to conflate what happened then with a very good news story now: a 28% increase in the number of international students since 2010 and a 10% increase in only the past 12 months.

[Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister reassure the House that, in those cases where after further investigation it is discovered that individual students have not cheated nor committed any kind of fraud, they are properly compensated for the fees that they paid, the loss of their courses and a loss of income in employment?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for making that point. Of course, it will be in the light of the NAO report and the additional advice of the Home Secretary that next steps will be able to be articulated to both Houses.

[Lord Dholakia (LD)]

My Lords, what is being done to change the culture within the Home Office in how it deals with these applications? A number of immigration investigations conducted in the past provide examples of people who were eligible to come to this country having to go through a process which is devised to keep people out. A fundamental change in the way we look at students in this country is required. What is being done to improve on that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I know the House’s feeling on this subject. I have said many times at this Dispatch Box that there is no cap on the number of international students who can come to this country to study. Going back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that matter should not be conflated with the people who will use a route simply to get into this country. Those colleges were therefore rightly closed down under the previous coalition Government. On the culture of the Home Office, I think that it acted rightly in closing down bogus colleges, but we should never lose sight of the contribution made by international students to this country and its education system.

Victims of Crime: Mobile Phone Data

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a response to an Urgent Question given by my right honourable friend the Minister for Policing and the Fire Service in the other place:

“There is widespread recognition that disclosure in criminal cases must be improved. Disclosure of evidence is crucial for ensuring the public’s confidence in the police and in our criminal justice system.

It is important to note that police forces have been using forms to request victims’ consent to review mobile phones in investigations—including sexual assault cases—for some time. What is new is the new national form that was introduced today, which attempts to distil current best practice to replace the individual versions of the 43 forces, ensuring that there is consistency and clarity for complainants. That is the intention of the police.

In considering seeking such consent, the police must consider what is a reasonable line of inquiry and their approach must avoid unnecessary intrusion into a complainant’s personal life.

In July 2018 the Director of Public Prosecutions issued advice on investigating communications evidence, making it clear that examination of mobile telephones of complainants is not something that should be pursued as a matter of course and, where it is pursued, the level of extraction should be proportionate.

This Government have made protecting women and girls from violence and supporting victims and survivors of sexual violence a key priority, and it is encouraging that more victims than ever before have the confidence to come forward.

It is surely critical that victims are not deterred from seeking justice by a perception about how their personal information is handled. They can and should expect nothing less than that it will be dealt with in a way that is consistent with both their right to privacy and the interests of justice.

This is clearly a complex area. While disclosure is an important component of the criminal justice system to ensure a fair trial, the police have acknowledged that the use of personal data in criminal investigations is a source of anxiety, and will continue to work with victim groups and the Information Commissioner’s Office to ensure that their approach to this issue offers the necessary—if difficult—balance between the requirement for reasonable lines of inquiry and the victim’s right to privacy.

I can assure the House that the Government will continue to work with partners in the criminal justice system to deliver the recommendations in the Attorney-General’s review, designed to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of disclosure”.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I am incredibly grateful to the Minister for repeating that Statement. However, I hope she will appreciate that widespread concern about reporting using this new form forces me to press her a little further on the detailed commitment from the Government. The anxiety is not with consent being sought in a targeted manner in particular cases where the electronic interaction between a complainant and a suspect is relevant to an investigation. As reported by a number of victims—the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, is in her place, and no doubt we will hear from her in a moment to bear this out—the concern is that this practice is too routine and the trawling of data too blanket. If I am right about that, and if those concerns are borne out, that would put the authorities and the Government in breach of complainants’ fundamental rights under Articles 3, 6 and 8 of the European Convention. This is why I press the Minister.

Forms are no substitute for resources: that is, better trained police officers and more of them; victim support; and qualified lawyers to handle disclosure in the criminal justice system. I hope the Government are listening, and that the Minister might agree.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Where I do agree with the noble Baroness is that the victims should be at the heart of all that we do, and there should be consistency across the piece when using the forms to apply for consent to gather evidence. I think she would agree that 43 different forms across different forces probably is not as acceptable as one standardised form to ask for consent to gather evidence. I know she will agree that it is of absolute importance that personal information of complainants who report sexual offences is, as I said in the Statement, treated in a way that is both consistent with their right to privacy and in the interests of justice. That is what we seek for victims: that justice be served.

As for trawling through phones—to use her term—the CPS access guidance is clear that requests for access to information held by third parties on digital devices must be a reasonable line of inquiry, justified by the circumstances of the individual case. It should not be undertaken routinely in every case, and should not be used as a matter of course.

The noble Baroness asked specifically about funding for both victims and the police. In 2018-19, the MoJ is providing £12.5 million of funding specifically for services for victims and survivors of sexual violence, and £4.7 million to PCCs to deliver local support services for victims of CSA across England and Wales.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, while we accept that this is a complex issue, the facts are undeniable. It is estimated that only one in five rapes is reported to the police, with fewer than two in every 100 cases reported to the police resulting in a prosecution, let alone a conviction. This development is not going to help. While there may be an argument in some cases where consent is at issue—as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said—there can be no justification for a blanket requirement. What consultation has taken place with women’s groups, such as the End Violence Against Women Coalition, about the potential impact such a requirement will have on the willingness of rape victims to come forward or to continue with a prosecution once the rape is reported to police?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord strikes the balance of where we should be—in other words, encouraging women to come forward and, when they do, feeling that their case will be dealt with properly through the criminal justice system. I hope I can comfort him by saying that it is not a blanket requirement. On consultation, the groups that were invited to comment on the form included Rape Crisis, the End Violence Against Women Coalition, the Survivors Trust and Galop, as were Dame Vera Baird and the ICO. The ICO has an ongoing investigation into how this data is used and the CPS has committed to reviewing the forms and the process in the light of that.

[Baroness Newlove (Con)]

My Lords, I have had quite a busy day on this subject and I have a busy day tomorrow on anti-social behaviour. I have argued that, when making such huge decisions, fairness requires that the victims must be offered free access to independent legal advice. Where there are disputes between prosecutors and victims about what should be disclosed, the final decision should be taken by a judge and not by front-line police officers or prosecutors.

In the work that I do as Victims’ Commissioner I would like to count on one hand how many prosecutors actually engage with victims, an issue I used to work on with the previous Director of Public Prosecutions. This feels very much a process for the police and the criminal justice legal system; it is not for victims. Under the process it creates, where victims are scared they will not come forward.

It used to be called the Stafford statement but this is a new form and it is nine pages long. When you ask someone to sign this statement, no matter at what stage of the process, they will be traumatised and going through the harassment of trying to do the right thing for justice. It is not right to ask someone to sign this document without them having legal representation, especially when it says in bold print:

“If data obtained from your device has been or will be shown to the suspect/defendant, either as evidence or as disclosed unused material then we will inform you of this”.


As it is, communication to victims is appalling—we do not even get victims’ personal statements produced—and I would like the Government to work harder, especially as the office of the Victims’ Commissioner had no idea what this form looked like or contained. I was told by a journalist from the Telegraph. If we do not realise what the Victims’ Commissioner can do to support victims, what does that say about the process to make the victims we expect to come forward feel safe?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness and all that she does for victims. I concur with her that at the point victims are asked to sign a form they may be in a highly traumatised state. This process is nothing new—it has not just happened today—but the standardised form is new. However, I take on board the fact that victims and potential victims are in a vulnerable state when they are asked to sign the form. There is nothing to preclude a victim having a legal representative with them at the time they are asked to do this. However, I take the noble Baroness’s views on board and, as I have said, the CPS has undertaken to review the form.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I am concerned about these proposals for two reasons. First, the major cause of some of the problems is demand. We have had far more reporting of sexual offences over the past few years, there is a greater availability of devices for recording digital data and there is far more social networking. There is a huge amount of information to trawl through and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, it is no good giving even more access to this type of material if the police do not have the skills and resources to act on it. It would have been a good idea to talk about that alongside this proposal. Although resources have been going to the police, they have not been in this particular area.

More fundamentally, I am less relaxed than some noble Lords who have spoken about whether it is okay to trawl, as that is how it will be seen, through someone’s material. It will be seen as an intrusion into the privacy of the victim, even though I am sure it is not intended in that way. We have got to the stage where a person is now entitled to withdraw consent at the point of the sexual offence. It does not matter about sexual history or what happens after the event. Many of the offences where disclosure has been an issue have been about things and communications which have been shared after the event. I wonder, as a point of principle, why it is relevant to search someone’s communications before or after. Surely it is the event and the consent. We are in danger of moving away from that fundamental principle, which has been fought for an awful lot over the past 20 years, and this seems to be a backwards step.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I know the noble and learned Lord is desperate to get in, but I shall answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, first. I totally take his point about demand and the different ways of communicating and therefore the new demands on the police, the training what they have on to do and the resources that they need to do it.

I have talked about the money given to PCCs and the announcement of the quite significant increase in funding to the police going forward. The noble Lord made an important point about withdrawing consent and how we have become so much more attuned to what consent means, but I take his point that the police need to have the resources in place to deal with this as well as training.

Passports

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government why not all newly issued passports have the words “European Union” printed on them.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, as part of the long-term operational arrangements to prepare for the UK leaving the EU, burgundy British passports that do not include “European Union” on the front cover were introduced as planned from 30 March. Whether their passport does or does not reference the European Union makes no difference to British citizens: both are equally valid for travel.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, not only are we still in the European Union but, after tonight, we may be so for another nine months—perhaps even a year. During that time, the UK and the Government will enjoy all the rights and obligations of EU membership, including that of sincere co-operation. Why are the Government refusing to pass on those rights to their citizens, who want “European Union” on their passports? Why are they refusing to co-operate sincerely with their citizens or respect the will of those people?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

With respect to the noble Baroness, this has absolutely nothing to do with the will, or otherwise, of the British people, but everything to do with them voting to leave the European Union and the Home Office making preparations in changing passports. I really think that her point is not very good.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, this is a topical Question. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, obviously thinks that it is an urgent and important matter for discussion. Will my noble friend the Minister perhaps consider getting the Home Office to produce disposable, peel-off stickers saying “European Union” for the people who feel concerned about this matter?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very practical point. In fact, one can purchase passport covers in any colour and saying anything that anybody wants; the noble Baroness is quite at liberty to do so. It is right that the Home Office prepares for the UK leaving the European Union.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister consider an alternative solution? Given the limbo in which the country finds itself, would it not be sensible to put a question mark after “European Union”? Then we could Tippex it out in due course.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes a funny point. I do not think that we should deface our passports, just to put that out there, but we can buy covers and put pretty much what we want on them.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the Government website and the adverts the Government have put out are confusing? If you have six months’ validity on your passport, can you still travel to the European Union? Would the Government mind extending it so that new passports would be valid for 10 years and six months henceforth?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a good point. Countries such as the US offer travellers leave to go for a fixed period of time so they can use their passport right up to the 10-year limit. It would therefore be rather confusing to make ours valid for 10 and a half years. I know exactly the point she is making, though.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, by the end of the year, some British passports will be blue, some will be maroon, some will have “European Union” on the front and some will not. Does the Minister agree that this will be confusing to not only British passport-holders but foreign security personnel, and that this increases the risk of forged passports going undetected because of the variety of official documents?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I give the British public more credit for their intelligence than does the noble Lord. Of course, the Croatian passport is not burgundy, it is blue, and there is a reason for that. The Croatians did not want the association with communism writ large on their passports in the form of the red colour. Some people might rather like it, though. I do not think that it is confusing. The wrong thing to do would be to scrap a load of remade passports. There is absolutely no law against what we are doing. We intend to continue to make the blue passport available from later this year, and I look forward to ordering mine.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may turn for a moment from the cosmetics of passports to the national security implications. On 12 March, my noble friend Lord Wasserman asked the Government,

“how many holders of UK passports also hold passports issued by other countries”?

The reply was:

“Her Majesty’s Passport office does not hold a central record or database of persons holding both a UK passport and foreign passport”.


Is it not time that the Government put this right?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for his persistence. It is perfectly legal to hold a passport from more than one country and the Government do not have any plans to change that.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm for the benefit of us all that the important information, including all the security information, is included inside the passport, not on the cover?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for returning the debate to some common sense. She is absolutely right and of course our standards are set in consultation with the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has raised an important point. Why does the Home Office not collect this information? Also, can the noble Baroness help me? I read somewhere that the European Union is going to change all of its passports to blue. Is that true?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Would it not be a wonderful day if the Europeans followed our lead and changed EU passports to blue? I look forward to that. I think that the noble Lord is just having a bit of fun with me, but it is very difficult to gather the data establishing how many people are holders of passports from other countries. However, I shall look again into why that is so.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Does the Minister share my guess that if British citizens abroad are in difficulties, they are more likely to go to the British embassy for assistance than to the European External Action Service, which has grown rapidly over the past few years, at great expense? Will it not be a nice day as and when we no longer have to make financial contributions to that service so that the money can be transferred to strengthen further British embassies and consulates throughout the world?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Lord.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 27 and 28, to which the Commons have disagreed, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 27A to 27K in lieu.

27A: After Clause 17, page 18, line 10, at end insert the following new Clause—
“Delivery of bladed products to persons under 18
(1) This section applies if—
(a) a person (“the seller”) sells a bladed product to another person (“the buyer”),
(b) the seller and the buyer are not in each other’s presence at the time of the sale and the seller is within the United Kingdom at that time,
(c) before the sale, the seller entered into an arrangement with a person who is a body corporate by which the person agreed to deliver bladed products for the seller,
(d) that person was aware when they entered into the arrangement that it covered the delivery of bladed products, and
(e) that person delivers the bladed product to residential premises pursuant to that arrangement.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) a person (“A”) is not in the presence of another person (“B”) at any time if—
(a) where A is an individual, A or a person acting on behalf of A is not in the presence of B at that time;
(b) where A is not an individual, a person acting on behalf of A is not in the presence of B at that time.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) a person other than an individual is within the United Kingdom at any time if the person carries on a business of selling articles of any kind from premises in any part of the United Kingdom at that time.
(4) In subsection (1)(e) “residential premises” means premises used solely for residential purposes.
(5) The circumstances where premises are not residential premises for the purposes of subsection (1)(e) include, in particular, where a person carries on a business from the premises.
(6) The person mentioned in subsection (1)(e) commits an offence if, when they deliver the bladed product, they do not deliver it into the hands of a person aged 18 or over.
(7) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (6) is liable—
(a) on summary conviction in England and Wales, to a fine;
(b) on summary conviction in Scotland or Northern Ireland, to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.
(8) This section is subject to section 18 (defences).”

--- Later in debate ---

27K: Clause 41, page 38, line 31, after “4(8)(c)” insert “, 18(4D)(c)”

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Commons amendments we are considering today follow on from debate on the Bill in this House at Third Reading in respect of the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for a trusted courier scheme. During that debate I set out the reasons why the Government could not support the proposition of a trusted courier scheme. In summary, I undertook that the Government would continue to reflect on the issue in respect of the delivery of bladed products in advance of the Bill going to, and returning from, the House of Commons. This we have now done and, accordingly, I trust that the amendment we have tabled in lieu, and that we are about to consider today, will have the support of noble Lords across this House.

We have given considerable consideration to the views expressed by Members in both Houses and business on the provisions relating to the sale of knives and the prohibitions on residential delivery throughout the passage of this Bill. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and to the Sheffield knife manufacturers for the time they spent in discussion with me on this matter. They and the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, were very helpful to me.

Following this further consideration, the Government have tabled Amendments 27A to 27K. These amendments allow a remote seller to deliver a bladed product to a residential premises by providing a defence where they have arrangements in place with a deliverer not to hand them over to a person under the age of 18 or, if the seller is delivering the item themselves, that the seller has procedures in place that are likely to ensure that any bladed product delivered to residential premises would be delivered into the hands of a person aged 18 or over. The seller must also have taken all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to ensure that the bladed product would be delivered into the hands of a person aged 18 or over.

The amendments also place a criminal liability, which is corporate and not individual, on the delivery company that enters into such an arrangement with a seller. The delivery company will commit an offence if it does not deliver the bladed product into the hands of a person aged over 18.

The amendment is similar in effect to the existing offence in the Bill on delivery companies relating to overseas sales, although this new offence is limited to bladed products—products that have a blade and are capable of causing serious injury by cutting the skin—and to deliveries to residential premises, whereas the measures in the Bill relating to overseas sales apply to deliveries to all premises and to all bladed articles, which are articles with a point or blade. For UK sales, the Bill already permits the delivery of bladed articles that do not meet the definition of a “bladed product” to residential premises. These amendments have addressed the concerns that have been raised by businesses within the UK.

The liability attaches only to delivery companies that enter into arrangements to deliver bladed products; a delivery company could simply choose not to do so. This new offence is subject to the defences set out in Clause 39 of the Bill. The amendments that we have made ensure that an individual’s age is verified at the point of delivery irrespective of whether the seller delivers themselves or uses an external delivery company. Should a seller decide not to enter into an arrangement with a delivery company, or put the necessary procedures in place to enable them to deliver bladed products themselves, the provisions in the Bill that prohibit delivery to residential premises of a bladed product will still apply: that is, the seller will not be able to send a bladed product to residential premises and the bladed product will still have to be collected in person at a collection point.

Amendments 62A and 63A are both consequential to Amendments 62 and 63, which already form part of the Bill as a result of Amendments 27A to 27K. Amendment 62A adds to Amendment 62 in the Bill the new offence of delivery of bladed products to persons under 18. Amendment 62 provides trading standards with a power to enforce various existing and new offences relating to the sale and delivery of bladed articles, offensive weapons and corrosive products. It also confers on trading standards investigatory powers under Schedule 5 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015—the CRA, as it is known—for the purpose of enforcing these offences.

Amendment 63A is another consequential amendment to Amendment 63 and is similar in purpose to Amendment 62A as it adds the new offence of delivery of bladed products to persons under 18. Amendment 63 in the Bill enables businesses to enter into partnerships with a local authority that will act as the primary authority for that business in relation to an area of regulation. This will enable the primary authority to provide advice and guidance on compliance to the business in areas of regulation covered by the partnership, on which the business can rely.

In summary, these amendments will ensure that bladed products can be delivered to residential premises, while at the same time addressing the risk that the product ends up in the hands of a person under 18 because the delivery company has not verified age or has simply pushed the bladed product through the letterbox. I again thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Paddick, and I hope that the House will feel able to support the amendments. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 62A.

62: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
“Enforcement of offences relating to sale etc of offensive weapons
(1) A local weights and measures authority may enforce within its area a provision listed in subsection (2).
(2) The provisions mentioned in subsection (1) are—
(a) section 1(1) of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 (penalties for offences in connection with dangerous weapons),
(b) section 1 of the Crossbows Act 1987 (sale etc of crossbows to persons under 18),
(c) section 141(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offensive weapons), (d) section 141A of that Act (sale etc of bladed articles to persons under 18),
(e) section 1 of the Knives Act 1997 (unlawful marketing of knives),
(f) section 2 of that Act (publication of unlawful marketing material relating to knives),
(g) section 1 of this Act (sale of corrosive products to persons under 18), (h) section 3 of this Act (delivery of corrosive products to residential premises etc),
(i) section 4 of this Act (delivery of corrosive products to persons under 18),
(j) section 17 of this Act (delivery of bladed products to residential premises etc), and
(k) section 20 of this Act (delivery of bladed articles to persons under 18).
(3) For the investigatory powers available to a local weights and measures authority for the purposes of enforcing a provision listed in subsection (2), see Schedule 5 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
(4) Nothing in this section is to be construed as authorising a local weights and measures authority to bring proceedings in Scotland for an offence.
(5) In paragraph 10 of Schedule 5 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (duties and powers to which Schedule 5 applies), at the appropriate place insert “section (Enforcement of offences relating to sale etc of offensive weapons) of the Offensive Weapons Act 2019.””
Commons Agreement and Amendment to the Lords Amendment
The Commons agree with the Lords in their Amendment 62 and propose Amendment 62A as an amendment thereto—

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 63A.

63: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
“Application of Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008
In Schedule 3 to the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008 (relevant enactments for the purposes of relevant functions to which Parts 1 and 2 of that Act apply) at the appropriate places insert—
“Criminal Justice Act 1988, sections 141(1) and 141A”;
“Offensive Weapons Act 2019, sections 1, 3, 4, 17 and 20”; “Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, section 1(1)”.”
Commons Agreement and Amendment to the Lords Amendment
The Commons agree with the Lords in their Amendment 63 and propose Amendment 63A as an amendment thereto—