Oral Answers to Questions

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We are putting the changes through as amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill. The sooner it makes its passage through the House, the quicker we can put these specific changes in place, but we are not waiting for that. We have had conversations with police forces to ensure there is visible policing on our high streets and that they respond to every reasonable line of inquiry, sending a signal to retailers and potential criminals that we take this issue incredibly seriously, and that the police will respond to this important type of crime.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

I realise the Home Secretary may be sick of hearing from me about assaults on retail workers, but I welcome the huge and comprehensive package announced last week to support them. Will my right hon. Friend implement the measures as quickly as possible to benefit retail workers across Stockton South and the rest of the country?

[James Cleverly]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who has campaigned vigorously on this issue and met me on a number of occasions to go through the specifics of the proposals, working closely with the Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk), to ensure that both the policing response and the criminal response send a very clear deterrent to those who may be tempted to assault retail workers. It is not acceptable and we will take action.

Antisocial Behaviour and Off-road Bikes

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Westminster Hall

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered antisocial behaviour and off-road bikes.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I bring forward this debate out of frustration for residents across my constituency whose lives are being made a misery by antisocial behaviour and off-road bikes. The issue has been raised time and again; I make no apology for dragging people to the Chamber to debate the issue once more in the hope that we can find a way forward. I have raised the issue numerous times with my local police force, my local police and crime commissioner, the local council and Government Ministers. From the looks of the turn out in the Chamber—despite the challenges with today’s schedule—the issue appears to affect people right across the country.

In my constituency of Stockton South, antisocial behaviour with off-road bikes manifests itself in areas across the patch. There is, however, a constant flow of problems in some of our most beautiful and scenic spaces, including green spaces in Ingleby Barwick and Thornaby, the Six Fields in Hartburn, Preston park and a beautiful and previously peaceful walkway that connects Bishop Garth and Elm Tree and Fairfield, which has recently come to resemble a racetrack—and there is little care for anyone who gets in the way. The issue also plagues our urban areas, housing estates and main roads across Thornaby, Ingleby Barwick and others.

The nature of incidents, nuisances and crime involving the misuse of dirt bikes, quads, electric bikes and scooters varies, but in all instances has huge consequences. Let me share a couple of examples of the impact that those bikes and the youths that misuse them have on my residents. I have heard from a pensioner who lives with her husband in a beautiful bungalow backing on to a field, previously filled with birdsong and nature. She and her disabled husband now spend most evenings listening to the roar of the bikes flying around that field, and the cuts and walkways surrounding it, at all hours. They have had vehicles come through their fence as well as mud and grit churned up on their property and they fear leaving their home at night for risk of being hit. They dare not confront the nasty and unruly youngsters who ride the bikes.

I have heard stories of young families looking to enjoy some of Stockton’s beautiful green spaces, only to be intimidated by youngsters on bikes, in broad daylight, driving at speed and ridiculously close in an effort to intentionally scare, harass and intimidate them. We have now got to a point where some of those youngsters feel that they are above the law, and to be honest, it appears that they are. Each weekend, balaclava-clad feral teenagers drive down normal residential streets creating fear and havoc, with no regard for the lives of people around them. It is simply unacceptable and it cannot go on.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate on off-road bikes. Such antisocial behaviour not only disrupts the lives of my constituents but damages livelihoods and farmland, creating absolute misery for people who live in areas where the off-road bikers go. Does he agree with me that the police need to take those people for what they are, which is proper criminals, rather than mere nuisances, and use every power available to stop the menaces that terrorise residents in Rother Valley and across the country?

[Matt Vickers]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. We need to look at what the law is and how we can empower our police to tackle something that makes so many people’s lives a misery. Just yesterday in Stockton, three people were hurt in incidents involving off-road and electric bikes, including a three-year-old on his way home from school who was hospitalised after being hit by an electric bike.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind)]

Throughout the UK there is pressure on police to come up with innovative ways to stamp out the antisocial use of off-road bikes. Those methods include seizing vehicles, tenancy enforcement action and SmartTag spray. Does the hon. Member believe that other enforcement measures should also be pursued so as to not add more pressure on overstretched forces?

[Matt Vickers]

I agree entirely with the hon. Member. Sometimes it is about the best use of the resources available to us. Actually, across the country it is clear that we need to learn lessons and put best practice to use to tackle the horrendous situation. I cannot comment on the details of the youngster who was hurt yesterday, but it illustrates the horrendous consequences those bikes can have when allowed to ride roughshod across our communities.

I ask the Government to get a grip on this growing issue. We cannot wait for someone else to lose their life; too many people in my community are already losing their quality of life. In the past year, the number of reports to my local police has gone up by about 40%. Local police, led by our police and crime commissioner, Steve Turner, have been making innovative efforts to identify the whereabouts of these bikes and seize them. The force has developed an online reporting tool and has made use of drones. In April and May this year, Cleveland police seized 180 bikes as part of Operation Endurance—yes, 180 bikes were taken off our streets—but we still saw last night’s incident, and I am sure we will see many more.

In advance of the debate, I have had conversations with police officers and officers from my local council about what more the Government can do to support them in getting a grip on the issue. We need to find a balance with those who use these bikes legitimately, but the pendulum has swung too far. We need a real change to bring this misery to an end.

[Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. We are all sick to the back teeth of people causing havoc. In the Worth valley in my constituency and across Ilkley moor, I see people going off road on bikes and being a real menace. It is good that the Government are taking action by putting out a section 59 notice in certain pilot areas such as Darlington, but does my hon. Friend agree that we need to go further? When the bikes are seized, they should be taken away and crushed so that those individuals cannot buy them back at a later date. That will be a proper deterrent and will ensure that off-road biking does not cause havoc for our constituents.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Vickers]

My hon. Friend is entirely correct: we need to go further and faster, because this is an absolute plague on communities across the country. I ask the Government to look again at regulating and licensing the sale of these bikes—off-road bikes, quads, electronic bikes and scooters—and the petrol used in them. I ask them to look at what we can do to make it easier for the police to seize the bikes by looking at any threshold for evidence of misuse. The Government need to deliver tougher sanctions and consequences for those found to misuse bikes, and perhaps in some cases for their parents too. As I said, 180 bikes have been seized, but there is little to prevent the owners from buying back their bike or another one, which can cost just a couple of hundred pounds.

[Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)]

What consideration has my hon. Friend given to further measures that the industry, the Department for Transport and the Home Office can introduce? Compelling the installation of immobilisers in these vehicles, compulsory registration and compulsory insurance would go a long way to tackle the problem.

[Matt Vickers]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. My ask is for the Government to find a national strategy to look at good practice and end this horrible situation. They should look at what we can do on licensing and in public spaces. We need more guidance for local authorities that are putting in place measures to impede motorbikes in public spaces. In my constituency, a barrier was removed in Bishopsgarth to allow disabled access to a walkway, and the result has been hordes of youngsters on off-road bikes tearing up and down. Bikes have even been used to deal drugs in that space. The local authority is looking at alternative measures, but the lessons should be learned once and shared across public bodies.

[Margaret Ferrier]

Reports in the media highlight that food delivery drivers on e-bikes are causing a nuisance in city centres. They sometimes drive on pavements, and that puts locals off journeying into town. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that related issue also requires urgent intervention?

[Matt Vickers]

The hon. Lady is entirely right. For all the reasons that hon. Members have raised and that I have outlined, we need a national strategy for dealing with these vehicles so that we can share learning and best practice, and empower our local authorities and the police to get a grip on this issue.

People across Stockton are sick of the misery, harm and distress caused by a small few mindless youths misusing vehicles. All too often, my constituents are unable to see the work authorities are doing to tackle the issue.

[Kim Leadbeater (Batley and Spen) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech, and I agree with pretty much every word of it. It certainly applies to my constituents in Batley and Spen. Does he agree that there is a correlation between antisocial behaviour with off-road bikes and the cuts to our police forces over the past decade?

[Matt Vickers]

Resource is part of it, and part of it is about learning the lessons and making the best use of the resource. In my part of the world, there are 267 more police officers on our streets, and we are feeling the impact of that, but I fear that, due to the frustrations of the public, someone will try to take the law into their own hands, stand up to these yobs and find themselves on the wrong side of the law. I urge the Minister to ensure that the law is on the side of the many law-abiding citizens in my constituency, who want to be free to go about their lives without the fear of feral yobs on bikes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Vickers]

I thank the Minister for his comments. We obviously welcome the 267 extra police, the hotspot policing and all the other measures that are coming through. However, if the Minister had been here earlier—it has been a record long Westminster Hall debate this evening—he would have noticed that there were Members present from across the House, despite what we knew would happen with the timetable, and that there are very strong opinions on the issue from all corners of the country. Members felt very strongly about the increasing misery caused by off-road bikes.

This is not something that the police are dealing with as they always have. In my part of the world the problem has hugely increased, with 40% more reports in the last year and 180 bikes seized in May and April. Still these youngsters are going to be riding around on bikes causing absolute misery. I have put the case to the Minister again, and I hope he will engage with and continue the dialogue about what we can do specifically to tackle those quad bikes, off-road bikes, electronic bikes and scooters.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered antisocial behaviour and off-road bikes.

Police Uplift Programme

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

Yes, I do. Suffolk has about 150 more officers than in March 2010 under the last Labour Government, and it is important that those officers are used to investigate crimes such as shoplifting. I completely agree with my hon. Friend: where a crime is reported and there is a reasonable line of inquiry or actionable evidence to pursue, I expect the police to follow it up and investigate it in all cases, in exactly the way he sets out.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

I welcome the news that there are already 267 more police on Cleveland’s streets. Some years ago, our then Labour PCC closed our community police base in Elm Tree, but since then I have been working with local Conservative councillors, with our new Conservative police and crime commissioner, with police and with stakeholders to secure a new community police base in a shared space on Bishopton Road. Does my right hon. Friend agree that such a base in the community will allow the police to be more visible and spend more time in Fairfield, Bishopsgarth and Elm Tree, Grangefield and Hartburn?

[Chris Philp]

That sounds like an excellent initiative to ensure that police are based in local communities. I strongly commend my hon. Friend and the local police and crime commissioner for their work to make it happen. I urge all hon. Members to be on the lookout for opportunities to base police in local communities: for example, in my community in Croydon, south London, we now have police based at Purley fire station to get them closer to the local community. Any Member of Parliament on either side of the House can be on the lookout for such opportunities to ensure that police are based as close as possible to the communities they serve.

Machetes: Consultation

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Tuesday 18th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

One of the reasons we are hiring extra officers—and why we are confident we will have record numbers when the figures are unveiled next week—is to ensure we have a visible police presence not just in our cities and towns, but in villages up and down the country as well. In terms of action on buying zombie knives, the seven-week consultation launched today, combined with the provisions in the Online Safety Bill, are designed to address that problem. It is important, as the hon. Gentleman says, and that is why the Government are acting.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

Recently in Thornaby we have seen feral, balaclava-clad, knife-wielding yobs riding around residential areas on off-road bikes. On Saturday, someone was robbed at knife point in broad daylight. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we must encourage and back the police in the wider use of stop and search to get knives off our streets? Will he meet me to discuss the horrendous issues occurring in Thornaby?

[Chris Philp]

Yes, I absolutely agree that stop and search is a vital tool. I mentioned a few minutes ago that every month in London alone stop and search takes between 350 and 400 knives off our streets—knives that could be used to injure or even kill our fellow citizens—so I completely agree with that point. And yes, of course I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend.

Antisocial Behaviour Action Plan

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Monday 27th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Suella Braverman]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that his police force’s area will be a pilot area for hotspot policing. The pilots will start very soon—before the summer, we hope—and we have chosen the areas with the greatest need. When it comes to tackling antisocial behaviour, we see them as a priority, and we want to ensure that there is a proper response on the frontline as quickly as possible.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

On Friday, I held a crime surgery in Thornaby and heard horrific stories of the misery caused by youth crime and antisocial behaviour, so today I am delighted to see Cleveland benefiting both from additional hotspot policing and from immediate justice. Can my right hon. and learned Friend outline what residents across Stockton South can expect to see and, importantly, how quickly they can expect to see it?

[Suella Braverman]

My hon. Friend is a doughty champion for his residents and for public safety up in Cleveland. I am very glad that Cleveland is a pilot both for immediate justice and for hotspot policing. What people will be seeing up there is more funding—more funding for more resource. That resource will, hopefully, be more police officers, who will be able to respond in a rapid way to areas of acute challenge when it comes to antisocial behaviour, so we can bring an end to what my hon. Friend calls the misery of blighting our communities, nuisance behaviour and, fundamentally, damage to the fabric of our way of life.

Fire Services: North-east England

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

I thank and congratulate the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) for securing this important debate.

First, I pay tribute and offer my thanks to the brave firefighters across Cleveland who do so much to keep my community safe. Recently, I had the chance to get out on shift with officers from Cleveland Fire Brigade and spend time with the teams at Thornaby and Hartlepool. I got to see at first hand the determination and commitment of those brave officers, who put their lives on the line in the service of my community, facing the challenges of road traffic collisions on our busy road network, adopting a specialist approach to dealing with accidents in the River Tees, taking on the unique challenges of my area’s industrial heritage and its chemical sector, tackling grass fires and floods, and saving the lives of those whose homes or places of work are hit by fire. My local force and officers remain undeterred by their huge task, using every spare minute they have to support fire prevention and community safety, visiting the homes of vulnerable people to provide life-saving checks and safety advice, and supporting the vulnerable and elderly by providing equipment to keep them warm in the winter months.

Cleveland Fire Brigade faces unique financial challenges and pressures. The brigade serves an area with pockets of severe deprivation. Across the Cleveland Fire Brigade area there is an exceptionally low council tax base, with 46% of properties in band A compared with the national average of 24%, meaning that the authority raises from council tax the lowest proportion of core spending when compared with the UK’s other fire and rescue authorities. That makes it incredibly difficult for the force to increase revenue in the way that many other brigades might.

I am saddened to say that Cleveland is the arson capital of Europe. A minority of mindless individuals put the lives of residents and our brave firefighters at risk. Moreover, the heavy industry in my part of the world adds to the pressures on service delivery. The risks and hazard profile of Cleveland simply are not recognised in the funding formula. We are not getting our fair share.

Cleveland has one of the smallest fire brigades in the UK, making it difficult to realise economies of scale. In recent years, the brigade has been innovative in its approach, becoming leaner and more efficient, but its current financial outlook is incredibly challenging. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Jill Mortimer), I would be grateful if the Minister would agree to meet me, parliamentary colleagues from across Cleveland, and the brigade leadership to look at how we can ensure that Cleveland Fire Brigade continues to provide a sustainable, safe service, keeping the residents of Stockton South safe and giving our brave firefighters the resources that they need and deserve.

Hotel Asylum Accommodation: Local Authority Consultation

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Robert Jenrick]

We want to have the most productive relationship with local government that we possibly can. As a former Local Government Secretary, I know just how effective local government can be in dealing with challenging situations. The task for local authorities now is to respond to our request for full national dispersal, which means working with the Home Office to find decent accommodation in all parts of the country and, with respect to children, helping us to find state or private foster carers or care home places so that we can ensure that young people are taken out of unacceptable hotels and brought into communities where they get good-quality care as quickly as possible.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the only way to tackle overcrowding in processing centres and end the use of hotels is to prevent the illegal crossings from happening in the first place, and that urgent delivery of the Rwanda scheme is essential to solving this crisis?

[Robert Jenrick]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need a system with deterrence at its heart. That means ensuring that those who come here illegally in small boats cannot find a path to a life here in the UK. The Rwanda policy is an important part of that and is currently in the courts. I am confident that we will win the arguments; when we do, we will implement the policy as soon as possible.

Public Order Bill (Second sitting)

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th June 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Anne McLaughlin]

What I am really trying to say is that they disagree with the answers that you have given me; if they have a different view, they must have the right to protest. How can they do that and make an impact, while dealing with the safety and disruption concerns we have talked about?

Steve Griffiths: I can only comment in a limited way on this. Advancing this subject is really about innovation, technology and research and development. Obviously, we have to be realistic about the step changes that we can make, which is why in the industry that I work in the Government have set out a very clear plan. I know that all parts of the industry are looking at ways to achieve that a lot earlier. At the heart will be design, research, innovation and technology—that will drive it. Those elements have to be at the top of the industry’s and the Government’s agenda if we are to achieve that.

Elizabeth de Jong: And creating the right investment environment for the investments and the innovation as well. It is that type of dialogue that can speed this along. Some 96% of energy used in the transport sector currently comes from oil, so to just stop oil would have quite catastrophic impacts on society and the economy, but there are plenty of ways to debate this and to look at the policies that are needed.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

Q All the measures in the Bill aim to end the behaviour as quickly as possible when there is an incident and to deter people from coming back and having another go. When you think about the hardened, seasoned protesters in this field, who have plenty time on their hands to go gluing themselves to things on a regular basis, do you think they are sensitive to fines or do you think it is important that we look more towards custodial sentences for those hardened repeat offenders as part of the mix?

Elizabeth de Jong: I am afraid I am going to have to leave that for the police and those who work in that area who have studied what the best incentives are for people. We are definitely focused on how to make things safe in our industry and how our society can work more efficiently and effectively.

Steve Griffiths: I cannot really comment on that. It is really for the police to determine, but we obviously support their having the right tools because, at the heart of this, as Elizabeth has said, is the safety of the protesters, the general public and customers, as well as our colleagues. That is really important.

[Matt Vickers]

Q When you look at what is proposed in this Bill, are we going far enough? Is there anything that you would like to see added to the mix?

Steve Griffiths: I am here to talk about the disruptions; I cannot really talk about the policy itself.

Elizabeth de Jong: The areas we have focused on are the definitions of key national infrastructure. Locking on is important, and it is important that petrol stations are included. We do not have views on the other areas of the Bill, around stop and search for example. That is for people who have studied and are expert in what deters people or does not deter people.

[The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)]

Q I have a couple of questions. In response to Ms McLaughlin’s point about protest, presumably the most direct thing these protesters could do is not buy your products—not drive a car, not use gas in their cookers, not fly on holiday. That consumer behaviour would have an impact on the way you run your businesses.

Steve Griffiths: That is clearly one obvious option, yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Hunt]

Q Sir Peter, I think you mentioned the point about police forces being aware of views within communities when it comes to policing protests. I am somebody who thinks it is very important that all protests are policed in the same way, and my slight concern is that it opens a Pandora’s box if you perhaps have a force that thinks, “Well, we think this cause is quite popular in the community, so we’re going to police it in a certain way”. Actually, that might not be the case. It might be that there is a vocal section of opinion that makes you think it is quite uncontroversial in its support when actually that is not the case. I just wondered how that is balanced.

Also, I just want a point of clarification—I think this discussion was again with Sir Peter—in terms of how we can improve things and how we can get to a point where perhaps there is a more dedicated team of people who are very trained and specialist. If we believe that these protests are becoming more frequent and more of an issue, although we do not want to go down the route of France, there have been occasions when I think that has been a temptation—when we have seen some of these out-of-control protests. I want to know what this new team that could help us get to a better place looks like.

Sir Peter Martin Fahy: Point No. 1 is that absolutely the police must never be swayed by a popularity contest. It is exactly what the chief superintendent says. Sometimes you have to stand above all that, and you are never going to win. Also, you might lose the battle, but you win the war. But the fact and the reality of policing is that you have to judge that. You have to talk to community leaders. You have to try to balance that. You have to make a decision. You have to try to involve people. One of the frustrations I had with that particular protest in Manchester is that I could not persuade anybody like the local council, the university or anybody to take this issue away from the street. It was an issue about what was going on in Palestine, and Israeli action. “Take this away”—but they would not do it. Sometimes, you need a mediation mechanism that takes that away from the street and that sort of public protest. It will not work on every occasion.

It is also about who makes that decision. Interestingly, the chief superintendent talked about using community panels to help you in your decision making. That was used with COP26 in Glasgow. Clearly, in Northern Ireland, they have the Parades Commission to make decisions on contentious protests and where they should and should not go. I find it interesting that we never mention police and crime commissioners, who are locally elected and, in some ways, should be representing local people. PCCs could possibly have a role in this, or it could be that more goes to the judiciary, so it is not so dependent on the police, with all the consequences for public confidence.

If you are looking at capability, there is a much wider debate, which the policing Minister will be aware of, about the structure of policing in 51 police forces and whether that is appropriate for the current situation. It is very difficult in our policing system, where we do not have paramilitary operation, policing is by consent and, rightly, the public have a particular attitude towards the use of force, to come up with something that would have the capability to deal with the sort of situations we are talking about. There would need to be a huge shift in the public mood and I think British policing is not really set up and does not have the mentality to use the degree of force that you see in other countries.

People do not realise that we are pretty unique. When you hear about the sophistication and negotiation the chief superintendent talked about, that is the British style. In all the protests it is escalation, which looks in the early stages like the police are being weak, but in the background they are talking to people and they are escalating. They are saying, “If you keep on coming back, we will use this power and that power. Have you heard about that?” That is the British style of policing. You do not start with the heaviest. You work up to it, and that then maintains the confidence in your legality and proportionality.

[Matt Vickers]

Q We talked about the financial cost of policing these sorts of protests. Actually, as part of the pile that is spent, if the volume of resources spent increases on protest, it reduces on knife crime and on everything else. How bad does that get? When you look at something like Insulate Britain when they took to London’s streets, what happened to policing in our communities that was tackling things such as knife crime? How low does the bar get in communities when you have to prioritise something like that?

Sir Peter Martin Fahy: It can get very low. Unfortunately, that is not part of the public discourse. I think the public think that there are lots of police officers sitting around in police stations doing nothing, whereas the reality is—somehow the police service needs to find a better way of articulating this—that no, even the Metropolitan police does not have loads of spare officers. So absolutely, that is part of the huge frustration for policing and where it sometimes feels it does not get the support of local politicians and the media—and, crucially, the courts—to deal with this.

Matt Parr: One of the things we criticise a lot, not just in London but across the country, is abstraction and the disruptive effect it has on building up long-term relationships. It is not necessarily detectives being taken off their work and therefore serious investigations not getting followed through. It is more likely to be neighbourhood policing that gets depleted, or response that gets depleted, and therefore you get longer response times or neighbourhood cops just not doing their job. It is rather difficult to quantify what the long-term effects of that are, but we definitely see in the inspectorate the negative effects of abstraction for a whole range of things, and this is one of the more serious ones.

Phil Dolby: At the same time that there are more protests—and more complexity around them—the service is also facing increased demand. There is a national shortage of the word “unprecedented” now because we have used it so much, but the demand that we are currently seeing as a service across the country is unprecedented. It is not only the amount of calls we are receiving—so volume—but, because hopefully we are doing better with our partners around vulnerability, more people are telling us about things that are really quite complex. The theft of a Mars bar is one call and “Twenty years ago, myself and my entire scout group were unfortunately the victims of something” is one call, but the complexity and the resource the latter needs is massive, and those are both going up at the same time.

There is not a standing army waiting to deal with protest. They come out of normal policing when they are required to do so, and the amount of neighbourhood policing that is affected by just keeping up with that demand is already quite acute. I just wonder whether, when we define organisations in the Bill, there is something about the organisations having some kind of responsibility to do what they can do to prevent— through their design, their target hardening and whatever staff they might put on—and to contribute to this as well and reduce it. Actually, we are talking about the cost of policing and the financial cost, but communities—with the reduction in policing that they are receiving—are the ultimate people bearing the cost. Perhaps we could do something with this, as we have with the Protect duty coming in under the terrorism Bill, putting responsibilities on local authorities and other people to do those kind of things.

We have had a very expensive protest recently around Amazon warehouses. Those drew in different forces and specialist policing. Some of the protesters were so long there in the cold that it became a medical emergency, and officers had to do some life-saving stuff around the protesters. With all those normal cops who have come away from other work, Amazon could have done more.

[The Chair]

I have to draw you to a close, Chief Superintendent. That is the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.

Examination of Witnesses

Olly Sprague, Stephanie Needleman and Martha Spurrier gave evidence.

Public Order Bill

Matt Vickers Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 23rd May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

I am grateful for the fact that this Bill will protect the rights of everyday men and women across the country who want the freedom to get on with their daily life. Some of the dangerous and irresponsible disorder we have seen on our streets in recent times, and the havoc it has wreaked on innocent people’s lives, should not be described as protest. Some would say it verges on domestic terrorism.

We have seen attempts to stop the distribution of newspapers because hooligans did not agree with the content. We have seen areas of our capital city brought to a standstill at rush hour because lefty activists wanted to glue themselves to a road. The public are aghast that this could happen, and that our police did not have the powers they need to tackle it. The police have been left frustrated. They have been diverted from their work of tackling crime in our communities and making our streets safer, and are instead playing marshals, and are, in fact, putting their life at risk on our highways, stewarding this pandemonium.

[Mr Holden]

Was my hon. Friend as shocked as I was to hear the Home Secretary say that more than £175 million has been spent in just the past couple of years on certain protests? That money should be going to our local communities—either his in Stockton and Cleveland or mine in County Durham—to help us fight the real antisocial behaviour problems that our communities face.

[Matt Vickers]

I could not agree more. I am delighted to see 13,000 more police officers on our streets, and I want them to spend their time tackling the issues in Stockton South, rather than policing this jamboree.

Law-abiding citizens have been stunned by these scenes and want to see our police forces empowered to protect the rights of everyday people who are trying to go about their daily lives. Why should someone be able to prevent them from getting to work? Why should someone be able to prevent their children from getting to school? Why should someone be able to prevent their dying relative from getting to hospital in an ambulance?

Sixty-three per cent. of people support the creation of a criminal offence of locking on, and it is clear why. We must protect the freedom of our citizens against a minority who would seek to impede them. Moreover, I can see how genuine protesters would be frustrated. They turn up to a protest to stand up for a noble cause, and then some of these serial protesters turn up en masse like some sort of traveling circus. Full of clowns, these groups hijack protests for a superglue soiree. They bring individual campaigns into disrepute and damage the public support and sympathy that genuine protesters have worked hard to gain.

[Sir John Hayes]

My hon. Friend is making a compelling case for the Bill. We have heard from the Bill’s critics that the end justifies the means—that because the end is noble, in their judgment, any means, however violent or disruptive, are legitimate. Is that not the argument used by every extremist, indeed every tyrant, throughout history?

[Matt Vickers]

My right hon. Friend is entirely right. These actions undermine public support and sympathy for genuine causes, and they create division and misery in the name of genuine causes.

For everyday people right across the country who should have the right to go about their daily life without interference, for those who wish to undertake peaceful and legitimate protests, and for police officers frustrated by having to waste their time when they could be making our communities safer, this is the right way forward. Thanks to this Government, there are now 13,000 more police officers on our streets; I want to see them tackling crime, not distracted and diverted by these jamborees of disruption, division and criminality.

Finally, I disagree with the assumption that police forces will use the powers in this Bill disproportionately and improperly. Of course, there have been horrendous exceptions—cases of misuse of police powers—but we should differentiate these from the brave men and women who sign up as police officers and put themselves in harm’s way to protect us. They should be backed and given the powers that they need to get on with the job.

Youth Crime and Antisocial Behaviour

Matt Vickers Excerpts

Wednesday 12th January 2022 Westminster Hall

[Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)]

Before we begin, I have a few notices. I remind hon. Members that they are expected to wear face coverings when not speaking in the debate, in line with current Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. I remind hon. Members that they are asked by the House to have a covid lateral flow test before coming on to the estate, and to give each other and members of staff space when seated and when entering and leaving the Chamber.

In this debate, hon. Members should not mention any active legal cases. There will be an advisory six-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches.

[Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered youth crime and anti-social behaviour.

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I thank all hon. Members for attending the debate. It is encouraging to see such wide interest in this issue. Clearly it resonates deeply not just with me and the people of Stockton South, but with MPs and constituents up and down the country.

I chose the wording of the motion carefully and deliberately. This is not just a debate on antisocial behaviour, because often what starts as mindless antisocial behaviour goes on to become crime. In areas of my constituency, that is exactly what is happening. Many of my constituents are rightly angry when abuse, broken windows, missiles and assault are badged as antisocial behaviour. They identify the perpetrators and report them to the police, only to be left feeling that nothing is being done about it.

Often when we talk of youth crime and antisocial behaviour, it can be trivialised, downplayed and dismissed. We tend to assume that it is simply a few young people drinking a couple of cans in the park. That is not to say that that does not happen, but the other side of youth crime is more vile and sinister. In my constituency, there continues to be repeated, sustained and violent abuse of persons and communities, which go on not just for hours, but for days, weeks and months at a time.

Youth crime appears in many guises. In Stockton South we have seen car windows smashed, arson, verbal abuse, emergency workers spat at and pelted with missiles, teenagers beaten and robbed, vandalism and destruction of property. Across the UK there are people afraid to leave their homes after dark, scared to go to the shops, terrified to live their lives. That cannot go on.

It would be wrong to say that we have not made any progress on the issue. Locally, I invited residents to meet me, alongside local police and the council. Together, we have managed to identify individuals who were responsible, put additional CCTV in place and increase police presence in hotspots at peak times. The council’s youth and antisocial behaviour teams have undertaken work with the youngsters in an effort to teach them the error of their ways and redirect their energies.

The number of first-time entrants into the youth justice system is down significantly since 2010, but that is little comfort to those whose lives continue to be made a misery by the actions of this rogue minority of young people. All too often, it feels that the system is stacked in favour of the perpetrators rather than the victims. Today, with her permission, I will share the plight of one of my constituents, though for her own safety she will remain nameless.

This constituent is a mother and a pillar of her community. For about two years, she has suffered abuse and intimidation from a group of youths. Throughout, she has shown both bravery and incredible determination to improve her community. The catalyst for this episode was when she initially reported an example of antisocial behaviour to the police. The youths in question found out she had reported them and labelled her a grass, and went out of their way to ensure she was punished for fulfilling her role as a good citizen.

The abuse has involved her children being attacked and assaulted, stones being put through her windows, and adolescents showing up at her house to intimidate her, filming the abuse, uploading it to TikTok and broadcasting live videos on social media as they try to damage her property. It is abhorrent, disgusting and an utter disgrace. The police have tried to help. They put a van outside her home for a time. Although that temporarily stopped the issue, the second the van left, the abuse started again. The police quite simply do not have the powers or resources to deal with this. It is clear that the system does not work.

I am sure that all Members here today would agree, in the strongest possible terms, that that example and stories like it are far too commonplace. In Ingleby Barwick and Thornaby in my constituency, separate groups of young children have been causing havoc. People have been abused and intimidated in the street, and there are concerns over the prevalence of drug use. When one veteran tried to confront youngsters over their behaviour, he was assaulted and hospitalised—an incident that has rightly disgusted the community in what is considered an affluent area.

I do not believe these children have been born inherently bad. They are not evil or demonic. I also do not believe that because a child is born in one estate or another, they will inherently be drawn to such behaviours. I believe this is an issue that affects children of every class, creed and colour.

Youth crime is a complex matter that requires a multifaceted, co-ordinated and often localised response. The causes of youth crime are diverse: education, family breakdown, poor parenting, a lack of creative output, and poor outlooks and opportunities. There is no one-size-fits-all approach to this problem. However, I believe it is the Government’s moral obligation to take serious steps towards fixing this issue; for it is their duty to ensure that children have the opportunity and ability to get the best from life. It is only through adequately resourcing and empowering all the agencies in this arena that we can make a real difference.

If nothing else, we can easily advocate action on the basis that to combat such behaviour early is to improve the quality of life for many, save police time and money, and free up our courts and prisons. Prevention is better than rehabilitation. It is better that we stop children getting into violent, antisocial behaviour in the first place, than to rely on excessive punishments in an attempt to deter those who will not be deterred.

Often, those who engage in antisocial behaviour do not fear punishment and, worst of all, do not have hope for their own futures. We need all local partners to start collaborating and getting youngsters engaged in youth activities, sports and initiatives to prevent them from turning to antisocial behaviour and crime. We must give youngsters something to do, with a meaningful outlet for their energies.

It shocks me that records on the use of antisocial behaviour powers and orders are not collated nationally, limiting any meaningful assessment or discussion about their use or effectiveness. By collating data nationally, we can ensure that successes and failures in relation to antisocial behaviour can be studied by policy makers, which, importantly, will enable informed improvements to make sure that the orders are fit for purpose and meet the challenges of evolving antisocial behaviour.

Of course, there are differences in how neighbourhood policing works in Thornaby, Twickenham and Tower Hamlets, but good policy lessons can still inspire and enable conversations that lead to material and substantial improvement in the lives of people across the United Kingdom. Creating a national framework would help not only those communities plagued by youth crime, but those children who have been sucked into a cruel cycle of perpetual reoffending.

I also believe that we need to look again at the burden of proof that is needed before civil authorities can intervene to compel educational courses and proactive measures. When sitting around the table with frustrated residents who feel nothing is being done and authorities who tell us that they need a greater catalogue of evidence to take something forward to court, there appears to be an impasse that leaves communities to suffer for longer than need be. Nobody wants to see youngsters criminalised unnecessarily, but neither should residents be left to suffer for months, waiting for enough offences to take place to build a case.

Not only is the burden of proof creating a challenge for authorities, but the speed at which youth crime and antisocial behaviour cases are progressed and resolved is just too slow. The process by which justice and corrective action are administered is in desperate need of acceleration. I believe that this should be central to any plan on youth crime. For the communities affected, the long delays feed into the narrative that nothing is being done and that the system is not on their side.

For youngsters, this can leave them with months of anxiety and an inability to focus on self-improvement. I spoke to someone from the youth offending team, who said that often by the time a young offender reaches them, the youngster has forgotten the details and the context of their offence and what they have done, and is likely to have gone on to commit further offences.

We need those in affected communities to see that action is taken quickly and that those who fall foul of their communities are brought to account. Waiting a year or more for action to be taken is unacceptable. We need to end the perception that youth crime and antisocial behaviour will be met with non-action and that perpetrators have impunity to act at whim.

It is important that we actively take steps to educate parents, who play such a crucial role in shaping their children. The number of parenting orders being issued is thought to be falling. If that is the case, I would like the Government to examine why that is and consider whether there is room for improvement in the relevant legislation.

[Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a brilliant speech. One of the main problems that we have in Blackpool is that, when parenting orders are issued, often the police are exasperated that the council cannot hold those families and young people to account and make them abide by the conditions of those orders. Does he agree that that is a problem and that we need to see how youth offending teams and local authorities can work with the police to ensure that the orders are adhered to?

[Matt Vickers]

I could not agree more. Actually, it is about sharing best practice. All these problems require every agency to work in collaboration, which is probably what makes this issue such a difficult one—it is about education, schools, local authorities and policing. The sharing of best practice and the collation of data nationally would help to inform the decisions that are made.

Some families need support in managing their children, but all too often I hear concerns expressed at my surgeries about parents who just do not care what their children get up to. In such cases, there needs to be tough action. I firmly believe that parents should be held accountable if they fail to engage with the authorities in efforts to control and help their children.

To conclude, enough is enough. I ask the Government to consider how we collate records on the use of ASB powers and orders, so that we can make a real and meaningful assessment of their use and effectiveness, and empower our police and local authorities. I think we should look again at the burden of evidence and the speed of our justice system, so that our communities see prompt action and offenders are held to account more quickly. Yes, some families need support in dealing with troubled youngsters, but those families who fail to engage with the authorities to help and control their children should be held responsible, either legally or financially.

It is imperative that we, as a country, start taking this issue seriously. We are talking about our children and our communities—the very fabric of our nation. The Government must act. They must show that they care and have the courage to tackle this problem head-on, whether for the young family who worked hard, saved up and bought a dream home, only for it to become a nightmare, or for the elderly lady who dare not leave her house after dark. Will the Government look again to see what more we can do to prevent a minority of youngsters from making people’s lives a misery?

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Vickers]

I thank Members for their wide-ranging and insightful contributions. It is clear that youth crime and antisocial behaviour has a huge impact on the lives of people across the country, and it should probably feature in discussions in this place more often. We have heard examples of and gratitude for the amazing police officers, the people who work in our local authorities, the people who work in the voluntary sector, and the people who work in our schools and youth services who do so much to make our communities safer.

We have heard all the manifestations of youth crime and antisocial behaviour whether it is the modified cars, the off-road bikes, or the issue of county lines. We have also heard that it affects businesses as well as the lives of people, and we have heard about the exploitation of young people and the horrific and tragic outcomes that this can have for them and their families. I think that we all agree that we need to open up opportunities for young people who are often the victims as well as the perpetrators.

I thank the Minister for taking the time to hear the many challenges that this issue creates across the country. I welcome the Government’s focus on tackling crime and antisocial behaviour; I welcome the thousands more police officers that we have across the country, including 194 in Cleveland; I welcome the huge uplift in police funding, including £157 million more for Cleveland; I welcome the opportunity to discuss the specifics around some of those antisocial behaviour powers; and I welcome the huge increase in youth services and the safer streets funding, which we are delighted to welcome in Cleveland.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered youth crime and anti-social behaviour.