Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Order 2022
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Lord Sharpe of Epsom
That the draft Order laid before the House on 19 July be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 18 October
Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for all the contributions that have been made during this debate, which, as has been observed, was very wide-ranging. There are obviously significant differences of opinion on the subject, so whatever I say I will upset half your Lordships. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for the spirit of his remarks; I completely understand where he is coming from, and they are noted.
I will start by talking through the changes to the Immigration Rules. I will try to deal with all the questions that have been asked of me but, in the time available, I suspect I will struggle. I expect a bout of letter-writing at the end, which I commit to do in full, having studied Hansard.
The changes to the Immigration Rules that have been the subject of this debate were made in line with the relevant provisions within the Nationality and Borders Act 2022, as has been observed, which came into force on 28 June. I remind noble Lords that we debated similar topics extensively throughout the passage of the Nationality and Borders Bill. The guidance was also published on 28 June, in line with the relevant provisions in the Act. I assure and remind the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that our policies do not contravene our international obligations, a subject that I will come back to. Everything that we do complies with the refugee convention. I will try to deal with the more specific questions at the end.
Your Lordships will excuse me if I do not get into a philosophical discussion about ID cards. However, as an aside, I note that we all carry around a smartphone which probably has far more detail than any ID card ever would, so perhaps it is time to reopen that debate.
I take on board the very sensible comments of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, about the Law Commission. This is a complex subject and we are extremely grateful to the Law Commission for its detailed and constructive work. We have already established a simplification of the rules review committee to look at the drafting and structure of the rules, as part of the multiyear programme of change which is being led by the Home Office. I hope to have some good news for the noble Lord in due course.
Pretty much everybody raised the subject of an impact assessment. In essence, the question is whether there will be an impact assessment for group 2 refugees and, if so, when will it be published. As with all our policy changes under the New Plan for Immigration, differentiation will be subject to ongoing monitoring and evaluation, with the operation of our policies being kept under close review. The Home Office routinely publishes migration statistics, which form the basis of our analysis. My predecessor committed to publishing this in due course, and I am also happy to undertake that, but I cannot go further than that at this precise moment.
If your Lordships will allow me, I will take this opportunity to explain the purpose and function of the Nationality and Borders Act. Its core objectives are to increase the fairness and efficacy of our asylum system, to deter illegal entry to the UK and to remove those with no right to be here more easily and quickly. Differentiation is designed to discourage individuals from embarking on unnecessarily dangerous journeys to the UK and to arrive by the various safe and legal routes that are available. I will come back to “safe and legal”. It is self-evident that those in need of protection should claim in the first safe country that they reach; that is the fastest route to safety. It is not right that the control of national borders should be suspended to allow people who have already reached safety in countries with fully functioning asylum systems to travel further to another country as a matter of preference. This undermines the broader immigration system and, as has been noted across the House, encourages people to fund criminal gangs and risk their lives trying to get into the UK in unseaworthy vessels or packed dangerously into cars or lorries. We have all seen the tragic results and there are some very uncomfortable statistics about how that sometimes ends.
I will briefly touch on the subject raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner. We will come back to golden visas on another Bill so, if she does not mind, I will pass on that for the moment.
As I have said, people are losing their lives by making extremely dangerous crossings over the channel. As a responsible Government, we have to do everything in our power to stop these criminal smugglers. I think that is a general point of agreement.
I will briefly clarify how differentiation functions. Section 12 of the Nationality and Borders Act introduced two groups of refugees. Individuals who came directly to the UK, claimed asylum without delay and, where appropriate, can show good cause for any illegal entry or presence will be recognised as group 1 refugees. If an individual does not meet all these requirements, they will be deemed a group 2 refugee. Both groups will have full access to the labour market and healthcare. The Act means that we may differentiate between refugees based on their group in a number of ways, including the length of permission to stay granted, the route to settlement, recourse to public funds and family reunion rights. That probably does not go into enough detail for the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and his more detailed question about that subject so, if he will permit me, I will write rather than waste all the time of the speech.
This is what the policy and legislative changes established, with the intention to influence the decision-making of migrants, stopping them turning to criminal smugglers and thus undercutting that business model.
The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked about the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. There is no specific provision within the refugee convention that defines a certain term or sets out a specific procedure. Where there is no supranational body akin to the European Court of Human Rights, for example, it is open to states to interpret the terms of the refugee convention. Limit is placed on that autonomy to interpret by way of the principles of treaty interpretation in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. The general rule of interpretation in Article 31(1) of that convention requires a treaty to
“be interpreted in good faith in accordance with the ordinary meaning to be given to the terms of the treaty in their context and in the light of its object and purpose.”
On that basis, we have considered relevant factors, such as the law in other jurisdictions, case law and the words of academics. We believe that all provisions reflect a good-faith, compatible interpretation of the refugee convention. I appreciate that opinions on that may differ, but the purpose is to discourage asylum seekers from travelling to the UK other than via safe and legal routes. It aims to encourage individuals to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach after fleeing persecution, avoiding dangerous journeys across Europe. The policy is compliant with our international obligations under the refugee convention and the European Convention on Human Rights.
The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked me about returns to various countries. On a case-by-case basis, we have returned asylum seekers to Denmark, Ireland, Italy, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden. I do not believe there are overarching agreements, but it does happen on a case-by-case basis.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
That is exactly the point. I do not know whether that means that somebody coming from Iran would be eligible. That is the point the noble Lord, Lord Horam, made, which I was agreeing with. So it is either yes or no, and I just do not know from that answer.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My reading of it is that it does, but I accept that my reading may not be entirely accurate. I will also say that, obviously, women in Iran should seek safety in the nearest available safe place, and that is the point of what we are talking about to a large extent.
All this is to underline that we remain committed to helping the world’s most vulnerable and oppressed people. This country has a long-standing tradition of extending the hand of friendship to those fleeing conflict, tyranny and persecution, and that record will continue.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked me a number of very specific questions which I will do my very best to answer in full. He talked about legal aid for refugee family reunion and whether that may or may not be available under the exceptional case funding scheme. It is where failure to provide legal aid would mean there is a breach, or a risk of a breach, of the individual’s human rights and it is subject to means and merits tests. In 2019, we amended the scope of legal aid so that separated migrant children are able to receive civil legal aid for applications by their family members and extended family members. This includes entry clearance and leave to enter or leave to remain in the UK made under the Immigration Rules or outside the rules on the basis of exceptional circumstances or compassionate and compelling circumstances.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked why the safe route for people from El Salvador has closed. Since 11 May 2022, Salvadorean nationals have been required to obtain a visa prior to entering the UK as a visitor. The decision to impose a visa regime was taken solely for migration and border security reasons. Over the preceding five years there had been a sustained and significant increase in the number of UK asylum applications from Salvadorean nationals at the UK border: up 1,750% since 2017. While this change requires Salvadorean nationals to obtain a visa entry clearance in advance of travel, it does not close the safe and legal routes available to Salvadorean nationals to enter the UK.
The noble Lord also asked whether, under the two existing Ukraine schemes, there is any progress in getting professional and technical qualifications recognised in the country. The Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities is working with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, other government departments and the UK Centre for Professional Qualifications to clarify and promote the process for converting professional qualifications into comparable UK equivalents. That will help Ukrainians to keep up employment in their chosen professions or industries and make the most of their opportunities to use their skills and knowledge while they are living in the UK.
The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about asylum wait times. As he noted, the asylum system has been under mounting pressure for several years. Increased and sustained intake, and a growing number of people awaiting a decision, have led to significant delays. We are currently concentrating on deciding older claims, high-harm cases, those with extreme vulnerability and those of children. I am afraid I am unable to offer specific timescales at this time, but I commit to notifying the noble Lord as and when I can. I will pursue that particular statistic.
Before I finish, I will talk about the practicalities and practice. They were noted by a number of people, including the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Horam. To some extent this informs the debate about Iran. Who are we talking about, coming across in small boats? That is essentially the nub of this. In 2022, 87.7% have been male. Between 2019 and 2021, 89.7% were male—it is pretty consistent. The top five countries of origin for small boat arrivals this year, bearing in mind that most of the migrants are men, are Albania, Afghanistan—where there is a safe and legal route—Iran, Iraq and Syria. I am not diminishing those people’s reasons for wanting to be in this country, but I question whether Albania is really the right source for asylum claims. It has been noted that some of them have chosen not to seek asylum, with the deterrent effect of the policy around Rwanda. I also point out that of those men—I did the numbers this morning—approximately three-quarters are between the ages of 18 and 39.
A couple of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, pointed out that there has been persistent criticism of France. I am not here to do that. I am here to commend France, because since July 2020 we have made more than 500 arrests, dismantled 21 organised crime groups and prevented more than 23,000 crossings. So I thank our French friends for their efforts in that regard. I hope they continue and perhaps improve. Who knows? There may be room for improvement.
The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked me a bit about Rwanda in relation to women from Iran. With the exception of unaccompanied children, any individual who has arrived in the UK through dangerous, illegal and unnecessary methods since 1 January 2022 may be considered for relocation to Rwanda. But decisions will be taken on a case-by-case basis and nobody will be reallocated if it is unsafe or inappropriate. Everyone considered will be screened and have access to legal advice. I cannot be more unequivocal than that, but I take the noble Lord’s point and will certainly raise it in discussions. I hope that satisfies him.
This is a very complex subject. It is a global phenomenon, influenced by multiple and complex factors. I am sure noble Lords are aware of the horrifying statistics of displaced persons around the world. I think this country is trying to do its bit but, obviously, we cannot take all of them. That is just not possible, as my noble friend Lord Lilley noted.
I close my remarks by again thanking noble Lords for their contributions throughout this debate. I understand this remains an emotive issue, obviously. The Government are committed to upholding our domestic and international obligations through safe and legal routes while also securing our borders, upholding our immigration laws and preventing unnecessary and dangerous journeys to the UK. We do not concede that the legislative changes and policy intentions behind differentiation are insufficient or problematic, as proclaimed in the regret Motion. We therefore cannot agree with the stated position of the regret Motion advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton.
Lord Hylton (CB)
My Lords, I had slightly expected that this might have been a rather dry-as-dust debate on the precise terms of the regulation. To my delight, it has branched out and blossomed. Many very important issues were raised, so I am doubly grateful to all those who have taken part in it. I note that they have come from all sides of the House. I join in the congratulations made earlier today to the Minister on his new role, and thank him in particular for his precise answers to the several questions that I raised with him in preparation for this debate.
The debate has touched on Rwanda, so maybe I could briefly say why sending people there would be a very bad idea. It is a country with a high poverty level and very poor human rights record. For example, refugees who have protested have been fired on and a number killed. There are strong allegations that refugees who have left Uganda to go to other countries have been murdered by Rwandan agents. I note that Israel had an agreement with Rwanda but has had to abandon it. I very much hope that Denmark will not follow this dangerous and unreliable course, and that development aid will not be used as a bribe to persuade the Rwandans to take external people.
That is all I need to say on that. Having done so, and having thanked those who need to be thanked, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Order 2022
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Lord Sharpe of Epsom
That the Grand Committee do consider the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Order 2022.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, in an increasingly interconnected world where crime knows no borders, international co-operation that promotes justice and helps to keep the British public safe has never been more important. The instrument before the Committee will enhance our international judicial co-operation framework, specifically in relation to mutual legal assistance.
Before I come on to the contents of this instrument, I will briefly outline the context. Mutual legal assistance is a method of co-operation between states for obtaining assistance in the investigation or prosecution of criminal offences. The UK is a party to the Council of Europe’s 1959 European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters and its additional protocols, which form an essential part of our fight against transnational crime and our co-operation with other contracting parties in relation to criminal proceedings.
The second additional protocol to the 1959 convention widens the scope of available mutual legal assistance among contracting parties and includes specific provisions regarding requests for hearings by video or telephone conference, joint investigation teams and the temporary transfer of prisoners. The UK ratified this additional protocol in 2010.
Under our domestic framework, mutual legal assistance is governed by the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003, henceforth referred to as the 2003 Act. The 2003 Act states that, for the UK to request and facilitate certain types of mutual legal assistance, the country in question must be designated as a participating country as defined by Section 51(2).
Lord Coaker (Lab)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and the Labour Benches support the order. I have a couple of questions. Luxembourg was the latest country to ratify the second additional protocol in 2021. When did the other states in this order ratify it? Is there any reason why we have waited until now to designate them?
Brexit impacted some of the collaboration we had on criminal matters with Switzerland, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, mentioned, and the statutory instrument will rectify that. Were there any other consequences on international co-operation from Brexit? Have they also been rectified? Are there any other countries apart from Russia—I totally agree with what the Minister said—we wish to designate but are unable to at present? If so, which are they?
The order refers to Sections 47 and 48 regarding prisoner transfer if consent is given. What happens if consent is refused, if a prisoner does not agree? What then takes place? Is there a process or are there other ways by which a prisoner can be moved between countries? Are all the arrangements outlined in this protocol reciprocal? How many requests do we typically make under this Act each year? One of my favourite questions: this order relates to England, Wales and Northern Ireland; will the Minister explain how Scotland operates with respect to this protocol?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I should say I thank all noble Lords, but I can be specific: I thank the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Paddick, for contributing to this debate. As I set out at the start, this instrument will enhance mutual legal assistance with these six countries and strengthen the UK’s overall ability to combat transnational crime. Mutual legal assistance is a critical tool in tackling cross-border criminality and promoting a pathway to justice here in the UK and overseas. As we have all said, this form of international co-operation has never been more important. Not only does it help to ensure that borders are not barriers to justice, but it allows us better to defend our public safety interests.
To go on to the specific points that have been raised, I am grateful to both noble Lords for supporting the non-designation of Russia at this time. I will have to come back to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, on his question about other countries that may have been non-designated in the past, because I do not know the answer. I will find out.
The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked about Switzerland and the EU and why we are redesignating Switzerland. Its designations for certain sections of the 2003 Act were removed following the UK’s departure from the EU, as the co-operation agreement between the European Community and its member states on the one part, and the Swiss Confederation on the other part, to combat fraud and any other illegal activity to the detriment of their financial interests, also known as the Swiss agreement, no longer applied. However, Switzerland remains a signatory to the 1959 European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters and its additional protocols, so it has been determined that it should be redesignated for the relevant provisions of the 2003 Act. Inasmuch as that relates to the EU, the question is correct: our departure from the EU meant that we had to redesignate Switzerland. Switzerland is obviously an important partner in the fight against cross-border crime and it is important legally and operationally for the UK to seek and provide effective assistance.
I hope I can reassure the noble Lord on whether there has been any capability gap between the UK and Switzerland in the period since the 2019 regulations and this order. We are unaware of any requests which have not been facilitated while these additional Swiss designations have not been in place.
Lord Paddick (LD)
Is it right then that what the Explanatory Memorandum says about this order being nothing to do with the UK’s withdrawal from the EU is wrong?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am reluctant to comment on the Explanatory Memorandum, simply because I have not read it. It sounds like it is, from what the noble Lord has said. I will seek clarification on that.
Both noble Lords asked why these countries are being grouped together. To be honest, it is in the spirit of efficiency and maximising the use of parliamentary time. It was decided that one instrument should be used to make a number of designations, rather than designating Switzerland and the other countries listed through separate instruments.
The countries that have ratified the second additional protocol to the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters 1959 since the previous designation in 2013 are those that we have listed. I will not run through them again, but the most recent country to ratify was Luxembourg, which did so in 2021.
The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked for the total number of outgoing MLA requests sent to all countries over the past few years. I can run through them in detail. In 2017, the number of outgoing requests was 346; in 2018, it was 350; in 2019, it was 320; in 2020, it was 235; and in 2021, it was 371, making a total of 1,622. I can go into much more detail on incoming requests if the noble Lord wishes me to, but I hope he does not. I will also more than happily come back to him on the reciprocal question that he asked because I do not have the information on that to hand.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
The noble Lord is quite right and is just in time. Scotland will need to make its own order as this power is delegated. Officials from the Scottish Government and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service are in the process of preparing parallel legislation. I had forgotten that question—my apologies.
To conclude, mutual legal assistance is a key tool in the UK’s fight against international criminality. This form of judicial co-operation enables the UK to seek and provide various forms of assistance to ensure that regardless of where a crime is committed perpetrators can be bought to justice. The instrument we have considered today helps to achieve this outcome and in turn to protect the British public and the wider international community. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.
Terrorism Act 2000 (Alterations to the Search Powers Code for England and Wales and Scotland) Order 2022
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Lord Sharpe of Epsom
That the draft Order laid before the House on 18 July be approved.
Considered in Grand Committee on 11 October.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Vere, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.
Corruption in the United Kingdom
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for securing this important debate, and I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. I will do my very best to answer the points that have been raised. Noble Lords will appreciate that some of them are broadly philosophical, and perhaps I will come back to those in due course, and some I cannot answer. On the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, I am not qualified to opine on the accountancy rules; that does not fall under the Home Office, as he will be well aware. It is a Treasury matter, and I will be certain that it sees the contents of his speech and will try to get him a response.
The Government are fully committed to protecting our institutions and systems from those who wish to undermine or abuse them. Like the noble Lord, Lord Evans, I do not believe that this country is systemically corrupt, but corruption poses a significant threat to all democracies, and to our economy and security. The Government are steadfast in their determination to ensure that the UK has the strongest possible defences and upholds the highest possible standards.
Before I talk about some of the things that the Government will do, it is worth defining corruption in response to the point made by the right reverend Prelate. The debate has raised a number of topics which demonstrates how broad a topic corruption can be, so it is important that we understand what we mean by corruption and define its scope. Corruption is the abuse of entrusted power for private benefit that usually breaches laws, regulations, standards of integrity and/or standards of professional behaviour. Corruption need not be economic in nature and can still exist even if everyone has acted within the law. Therefore, it is imperative that we also consider actions that go beyond economic crime legislation and capture the broader elements of corruption.
Corruption is harmful in many ways. It threatens national security, global stability and development; it can amount to a hidden tax stifling the growth we need to get our economy moving; and it can undermine trust in our democratic institutions—a point that I think all noble Lords made. As the former president of the World Bank, Robert Zoellick, said so eloquently,
“corruption is a cancer that steals from the poor, eats away at governance and moral fibre and destroys trust”.
Corruption is far from a victimless crime. While the impact of corruption is often hidden, we must never forget that it undermines the efficiency of public services, weakens the security of ordinary citizens and hurts the bottom line of businesses. More broadly, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, just noted, it undermines trust.
All noble Lords have asked what the Government plan to do. I will go into some detail, but I have only a limited amount of time, so I commit to write to noble Lords if I cannot cover all their specific points.
Economic crime is undoubtedly a multidimensional and multifaceted issue. There is a strong correlation between corruption and economic crime, and we are taking strong action in that regard. The Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022 was introduced in March, containing key measures to help crack down on dirty money, including from Russia and other foreign elites abusing our open economy, and provide greater powers to identify and investigate the illicit wealth of criminals. These powers have been put to immediate use.
The Combating Kleptocracy Cell in the NCA was set up after the invasion of Ukraine and recognises a significant increase in the NCA’s operational capability. I have seen those people in action and am in awe of their efforts. About £400 million has been allocated to tackle economic crime over the next three years.
The Government are following up on this expedited legislation with the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, currently going through its Second Reading in the other place. I hope that will deal with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about Companies House enforcement; among a suite of measures, the Bill includes reforms to Companies House that will bear down on the use of thousands of UK companies and other corporate structures as vehicles for economic crime, including fraud, international money laundering, illicit Russian finance, corruption, terrorist financing and illegal arms movement.
On strategy, the UK has long been seen as a world leader in dealing with corruption, from the UK-led anti-corruption summit in 2016, to the current anti-corruption strategy, which has served as a model for many other countries. Noble Lords may have seen our annual updates to Parliament on the progress we have made against this strategy. As they show, we have taken a number of important steps during the strategy period.
However, we know that the threat does not stand still, and we cannot be complacent. That is why the Government are developing a new anti-corruption strategy to succeed the existing strategy, which expires at the end of this year. The Security Minister will lead on that work as we look to build on the progress to date and make the UK even more resilient against the threat posed by corruption.
That resilience includes the overseas territories and Crown dependencies. They are separate, self-governing jurisdictions, but I am pleased that they have committed to upholding international standards and to having publicly accessible registers of who ultimately owns companies in place by the end of 2023. Gibraltar has already introduced such a register. I should note that this exceeds the standards required by the Financial Action Task Force.
The subject of standards in public life came up in a couple of contributions. The recent DHSC court case against the Government on Covid contracts ruled in our favour on all grounds. It showed the exceptional circumstances that Ministers and civil servants worked under during the pandemic to deliver impartial decisions to reach the best outcomes for the nation.
The Government are also working on their response to the recommendations made by the Committee on Standards in Public Life and in the Boardman reports. The Government have already issued new guidance on the declaration and management of outside interests in the Civil Service, and in July updated the House on progress made in responding to those reports, including outlining which recommendations have already been adopted. I will happily update the House on progress once more has been made.
On fraud and procurement, some issues overlap with standards in public life; I will go into more detail on those. Fraud is undoubtedly a significant and growing threat. Victims of fraud can suffer both serious financial and emotional harm, and we know that the money fraudsters make can fund other serious and organised crimes.
Public procurement is an important area of focus. Through the Procurement Bill currently going through Parliament, we aim to deliver a step change in transparency, with notices mandated for direct awards and publication requirements extended from planning to termination, including contract performance. This will embed transparency throughout the commercial life cycle so that the spending of taxpayers’ money can be properly scrutinised. Not only will this allow better detection of fraud and corruption; it will also enable better value for money and efficiency.
I will digress briefly on PPE, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. Contrary to allegations of potential conflict of interest in the awarding of contracts, the National Audit Office made clear that it
“found that the ministers had properly declared their interests, and we found no evidence of their involvement in procurement decisions or contract management”.
Our priority throughout the pandemic was saving lives. More than 19 billion items of PPE were delivered to front-line staff to keep them safe. The normal tendering process takes a minimum of 30 days; this was obviously not practical under those circumstances. It was essential that we were able to act quickly in an emergency. Under rules that existed years before Covid, contracting authorities are allowed to award contracts directly when there is a situation of
“extreme urgency brought about by an unforeseeable event”.
Obviously, Covid was that.
The higher-priority lane was one way of helping us to identify credible opportunities for PPE procurement so that front-line workers received the protection they needed. Ministers were not involved in the decision to establish the high-priority lane, nor were they offered a decision on whether this should be created. This was an internal process within the PPE cell, led entirely by officials. I could go on but I think that covers the principal questions asked.
I hope noble Lords will forgive me for leaning forward. Unfortunately, my brief is slightly between my glasses and non-glasses range so I have no choice but to do so.
Tackling fraud more broadly requires a unified and co-ordinated response from government, law enforcement and the private sector to better protect the public and businesses, reduce the impact of fraud on victims and increase the disruption and prosecution of fraudsters. That is why we will publish a new strategy to address the threat of fraud against citizens. Whatever form it takes, fraud is a despicable crime that we must confront with all the energy and expertise we can summon.
Corruption not only undermines trust in our democratic institutions, as all noble Lords have noted; it also creates vulnerabilities that our adversaries can exploit. We must remain alive to those risks, which can undermine development, stifle economic growth and threaten global stability. We must also ensure that we keep the protection of our national security at the forefront of our efforts while maintaining the highest possible standards in public life.
The National Security Bill, currently before Parliament, completely overhauls our espionage laws and creates new measures to enable our law enforcement and intelligence agencies to deter, detect and disrupt the full range of modern-day state threats. The new foreign influence registration scheme, which has been added to the Bill, aims to strengthen the resilience of the UK political system against covert foreign influence and provide greater assurance around the activities of specified foreign powers or entities.
Many noble Lords referred to the role of businesses. Business has a huge role to play, of course, particularly as we seek to strike new trading relationships across the world. We are asking businesses to compete in new markets and be innovative in their approach. This is especially vital in times of global economic hardship but corruption can be a hidden tax on companies, denying them a level playing field. This must be countered.
Lord Sikka (Lab)
Forgive me for this intervention; I will be quick. How does the Minister reconcile what he has said with the statement made by Chris Philp, who is, I believe, the Treasury Minister? He said that the Government will ensure that
“no business under 500 employees is subject to business regulation”
and that this will be extended to businesses with up to 1,000 employees in due course. How can that be reconciled with any of these anti-fraud and anti-corruption strategies?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I apologise to the noble Lord; I will have to ask the relevant Minister what he meant by that. I have not read that particular statement, so I cannot help him.
As I was saying, this must be countered. We are seeking strong relationships with our new trading partners to reduce these risks, and our businesses operating abroad know that they must comply with the high standards set in the Bribery Act 2010—a piece of legislation noble Lords have previously found to be a “global gold standard” in their post-legislative scrutiny. We are actively enforcing the Bribery Act. Operational successes in recent foreign bribery cases over 2021 included the Serious Fraud Office’s conviction of Petrofac Ltd—resulting in over £77 million in fines, confiscation orders and costs—and a deferred prosecution agreement with Amec Foster Wheeler Energy Ltd, resulting in £103 million in penalties and costs that also included compensation to Nigeria. On the subject of DPAs—deferred prosecution agreements—and in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Evans, they have raised over £1.6 billion.
I am being told that I am out of time. I apologise to those I have not managed to answer, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, with his very specific query; I will get back to him on that. I am grateful to all those who have participated in this debate, and I agree: these issues strike at the heart of our democracy, security and economy. As I have made clear, the Government are absolutely determined to root out and tackle corruption however and whenever it appears.
Terrorism Act 2000 (Alterations to the Search Powers Code for England and Wales and Scotland) Order 2022
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That the Grand Committee do consider the Terrorism Act 2000 (Alterations to the Search Powers Code for England and Wales and Scotland) Order 2022.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move that the order, which was laid before this House on 18 July, be approved.
Following the horrific terrorist attack at Fishmongers’ Hall in November 2019, the then Home Secretary commissioned the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, Jonathan Hall KC, to review the Multi Agency Public Protection Arrangements, commonly referred to as MAPPA, used to supervise terrorist and terrorist-risk offenders on licence in the community.
The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, hereafter referred to as the 2022 Act, established three new powers for counterterrorism policing: a personal search power, a premises search power, and a power of urgent arrest. These powers were established in response to recommendations made by Jonathan Hall KC following his review of MAPPA.
This order relates to the new power of personal search, the creation of which was also recommended by the Fishmongers’ Hall Inquests—Prevention of Future Deaths report. The personal search power has been inserted into the Terrorism Act 2000, in new Section 43C, by the 2022 Act. The new search power came into force on 28 June this year.
As was set out by the Government during the passage of the 2022 Act, the new personal search power applies across the UK, enabling the police to stop and search terrorist and terrorism-connected offenders released on licence who are required to submit to the search by their licence conditions, should the Parole Board determine such a condition is necessary. The officer conducting the stop and search must also be satisfied that it is necessary to exercise the power for purposes connected with protecting members of the public from a risk of terrorism.
Section 47AA of the Terrorism Act 2000 imposes a requirement on the Secretary of State to prepare a code of practice containing guidance about the exercise of search powers that are conferred by that Act. In June, Parliament approved regulations laid by the Government that amended Section 47AA so that it extends to cover the new personal search power inserted into the Terrorism Act 2000 by the 2022 Act. This created a requirement for the Secretary of State to prepare a revised code of practice that includes guidance on the exercise of the power conferred by new Section 43C.
We have duly prepared a draft revised code of practice, and this order seeks Parliament’s approval to bring the revisions we have made to the existing code of practice into force.
I will now set out the nature of the revisions the Government have made. The primary update to the code of practice is the incorporation of the new stop and search power provided for by Section 43C of the Terrorism Act 2000. The revised code sets out important parameters that govern the use of the Section 43C power and provides clarity for police officers on the power’s scope. This includes providing guidance on the thresholds to be met before the section 43C power can be used, scenarios in which it might be appropriate for use and the powers of seizure associated with the search power.
We have also set out clearly within the revised code the limitations on the clothing that a person can be required to remove when the Section 43C power is being exercised by the police. In keeping with existing stop and search powers, police officers exercising the Section 43C power may not compel a person to remove any clothing in public except for an outer coat, a jacket or gloves, and an intimate search may not be authorised or carried out under the new power.
The new Section 43C stop and search power has been specifically created to help manage the risk posed by terrorist offenders on licence who are assessed to be high or very high risk to the public. The Government plan to collect data from police forces on the use of this targeted power, as we routinely do for other stop and search powers, and make this data publicly available through future statistical publications.
Given that the existing version of the code was brought into force in 2012, the Government have also taken this opportunity to make other minor changes to the code to ensure that it accurately reflects current practice, legislation, terminology and organisational responsibilities. The updated code reflects the creation of police and crime commissioners and structural changes to other police authorities, including the creation of authorities overseeing combined police areas.
We have also ensured that organisational names have been updated, for example replacing previous references to the Association of Chief Police Officers’ counterterrorism co-ordination centre—it does not trip off the tongue—with up-to-date references to the Counter Terrorism Policing national operations centre.
The revised code also includes a new paragraph which references the Children Act 2004, and its Scottish equivalent, to highlight the need for the police to ensure that in the discharge of their functions they have regard to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of all persons under the age of 18. Although this is not a new policy, the Government considered it important when revising the code for safeguarding duties such as this to be made explicit.
In addition, we have used this opportunity to make other minor but necessary amendments, such as updating links and contact details within the code, including refreshing the web address where the most up-to-date version of the Government’s counterterrorism strategy, known as Contest, can be found.
In the course of revising the code, the Home Office has consulted the Lord Advocate and other appropriate persons and organisations, including the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, Counter Terrorism Policing and Police Scotland, all of which are supportive of the approach being taken.
The revised code promotes the fundamental principles to be observed by the police and helps preserve the effectiveness of, and public confidence in, the use of police powers to stop and search under the Terrorism Act 2000. I very much hope that noble Lords will support these alterations to the code of practice.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his elevation to Home Office Minister. If it were me, I would also be thinking, “Oh goodness, what have I done?”, but I am sure he will be excellent in his new role. I thank him for explaining this order. As when we considered the primary legislation that lies behind this order, clearly we are supportive of the changes in the legislation. We know from the tragedy at Fishmongers’ Hall how the risk posed by offenders on licence is an inexact science. These additional powers for the police to stop and search people on licence on the recommendation of the Parole Board are an important tool in trying to manage that risk and act as a deterrent to those on licence from carrying out the sort of appalling attacks that we saw at Fishmongers’ Hall.
As the Minister explained, the order is about the revised code of practice, which is quite a lengthy document. We are here to hold the Government to account for, in this case, the changes that have been made to the extensive code of practice. I understand the issues around the change in the legislation and Section 43C but, as the Explanatory Memorandum and the Minister have explained, a series of other amendments have been made to the code. The Explanatory Memorandum says that these “include”, and then gives a list of those changes, as the Minister explained. It would be extremely helpful to have a “track changes” copy of the code of practice so that we could see exactly what the changes are to the revised code of practice. Although the changes to incorporate the new Section 43C are fairly obvious, as I say, the others are difficult to find in among the code of practice. However, this is an important step forward in terms of giving these additional powers to the police for those who may pose a risk after they have been released from prison, and it is important for the police to have a code of practice to go with those changes. Having said that, we are supportive of the order.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, first, I thank both noble Lords for their warm welcome; I hope that we continue to operate in total agreement.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am not sure about that either, but we will try.
On the specific points that both noble Lords raised, to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, we will be happy to provide a tracked change version as he requested, and I will make sure he gets that as soon as possible. That was the easy question.
Moving to the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, I shall try to deal with them in order. He asked about the extent of the code of practice and why it is confined to Great Britain. A separate code exists for stop and search powers under the Terrorism Act in Northern Ireland—a fact that the noble Lord alluded to. The Northern Ireland Office is responsible for that. We continue to work with colleagues there and offer them support in updating their equivalent code in Northern Ireland, which they have advised is likely to happen next year.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I just ask, because this is a very important point. The new power exists with respect to Northern Ireland, but the code of practice under which it operates is separate, legislated for under a different Act and in a different way. Is that correct—the power is a new power to be extended to Northern Ireland?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
As I understand it, it could be extended to Northern Ireland, but the Northern Ireland Office is, of course, responsible for the application of such things in Northern Ireland. I may not be entirely correct on that, so I will come back to the noble Lord if I am not.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I am sorry to labour this point, but it is so important. I may be wrong, but I understood the Minister to be saying that a different code of practice applies to Northern Ireland, hence this is called a code of practice for England, Scotland and Wales—in other words, Britain. For Northern Ireland, there is a separate code of practice. Given that the new power extends to the whole of the UK, one presumes that the police and others in Northern Ireland will have the ability to stop and search without reasonable suspicion a terrorist out on licence, where that is part of their licence. Is that the case or not?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
To clarify—I think this does—the new search power applies UK-wide, but there are two separate codes. Does that make sense?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
That makes absolute sense. It is not what I understood the Minister to say in the first place, but I was just trying to clarify that. If I had realised that, I would have made different remarks, because it is a quite interesting extension of power with respect to Northern Ireland, for obvious reasons.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
Understood. The noble Lord asked me how it is determined who qualifies under the new code. To go back to the point I made in my opening remarks, in most cases the Parole Board determines whether it is appropriate for the offender, when released, to have their licensing condition expressed as a part of the conditions of their release. Its assessment is based on a contemporary assessment of the offender’s risk profile, including whether they are judged to represent a high or very high risk to the public.
How is it determined which terrorist offenders should have licence conditions permitting the search imposed on them? As I say, it is imposed on offenders convicted of terrorism or a terrorism-connected offence and assessed as posing a high or very high risk of serious harm. In those cases, it may be imposed where there is a concern that the offender may carry a weapon or to provide an additional protection for staff—for example, where they are subject to polygraph testing, a search can be carried out prior to the examination for the safety of the examiner. I hope that clarifies that.
The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about the sex of the searching officer. The answer to his specific question is no: a same-sex officer is not required unless the individual being searched requests one. The noble Lord also referenced the data that is collected. I can assure him that it will be extensive. He asked about age as well. I will come back to him on that; I do not have a specific answer. The notes I have deal only with the 18 year-old point.
In closing, I reiterate that this order provides for alterations that the Government have made to the code of practice for the exercise of search powers conferred by the Terrorism Act 2000 to be brought into force. I think I have covered the rest of the information requested, and as such I commend this order to the Committee.
Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2022
Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts(1 year, 10 months ago)
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The Earl of Dundee (Con)
My Lords, in welcoming these provisions, I apologise for missing the opening remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. However, we are still left with some anomalies, one of which follows the decision to reintroduce the fee charged to other children at £1,012 when the application—
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend but if he missed the opening remarks of the noble Baroness—I did not see him come in—then he really should not speak at all.
Queen’s Speech
Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts(2 years ago)
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Viscount Bridgeman (Con)
My Lords, I trust that your Lordships will forgive me for wandering slightly off piste in the context of this debate, because I wish to speak about the problem of marriages under sharia law in this country and, in particular, the fate of Muslim women seeking a religious divorce or being subject to a divorce by their husbands. At the outset, I pay tribute to the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, who has been tireless in her efforts to improve the lot of this potentially vulnerable section of society. She is unable to speak in this debate as she has committed to speaking elsewhere in the debate on the humble Address.
This is not an insignificant issue. In 2017, a Channel 4 survey found that 60% of Muslim women who have had traditional Islamic weddings in Britain are not legally married. Of these, 28% are unaware of the fact that they do not have the same legal rights as someone with a civilly registered marriage. The absolute figures are alarming: as many as 100,000 couples in Britain are estimated to be living in religious-only marriages, and this number will only increase.
The roots of this most unsatisfactory state of affairs have been raised many times in your Lordships’ House, but when it comes to Muslim women being subject to a divorce, cases of real cruelty become apparent. Let me mention briefly a few of the factors affecting this, the first of which is the largely unregulated use of sharia law. I understand that sharia courts can be set up with little formality by any member of the Muslim community, and it comes as little surprise that the application and interpretation of sharia law can vary widely. The problem can be exacerbated in the many cases where women may not be aware of their legal rights and may well have language problems. Then there is the extreme shame which a Muslim woman in a divorce situation can be subjected to, both within her family and in the community. I have to say that, regrettably, the police have sometimes not come up to their proper responsibilities because of their concern about race relations implications.
May I give an instance which is not atypical of the problems facing Muslim women seeking a divorce? It is not anecdotal. A Muslim woman, at huge risk to her family relationships, appeared at one of the landmark meetings of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox. A sharia court disregarded a British court order put in place to protect a woman and her children from a violent husband. When the sharia court arranged a mediation session, it heard the husband’s testimony without requiring proof. By contrast, from the woman they required two witnesses to confirm her case, because, coming from only one woman, her testimony was seen as being worth less.
I now come to the position of my friends in the Government. The Government continue to claim that there is no need for a change in the law because all citizens can access their rights according to law, yet the chasm between the de jure and the de facto is an abyss into which countless women are falling and suffering as a result.
We are not short of enlightened advice on this matter. The Independent Review into the Application of Sharia Law in England and Wales reported as long ago as February 2018. That perceptive document made a number of important recommendations, the most basic of which was that the Marriage Act 1949 and the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 needed to be amended:
“The changes are to ensure that civil marriages are conducted before or at the same time as the Islamic marriage ceremony, bringing Islamic marriage in line with Christian and Jewish marriage in the eyes of the law.”
This could not be clearer. Another helpful report echoing the same long-overdue need to bring British law into the 21st century
“to reflect the diversity of beliefs and practices”
in modern society has come from the Nuffield Foundation. I am pleased to note that the Law Commission will be taking that into account in its own report, which I understand is due in July.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, has been indefatigable in pursuing this matter for the past 11 years. She is to be congratulated on her creation of a not-for-profit organisation, Equal and Free, that seeks to champion the rights of British Muslim women who do not yet—I repeat “yet”—have the protection of legal marriage. A number of her Written Questions have received near-identical responses to the effect that the Government are awaiting the outcome of the Law Commission’s wedding project—they cannot delay on this now—which I understand is due in July, as I have said. The nine Private Members’ Bills she has introduced in the last 11 years, though receiving cross-party support, have not received a meaningful government response. Of these nine Bills, the Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill did get as far as the Commons, where it ran out of time.
The issue of religious-only marriages has been raised by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and, surprisingly, the Grand Mufti of Egypt. In 2018, this Government committed in the Integrated Communities Strategy Green Paper to
“explore the legal and practical challenges of limited reform relating to the law on marriage and religious weddings.”
So far, this commitment has not been followed by action. I therefore ask my noble friend the Minister for an assurance that the Government will not delay any further in acting on the Law Commission’s report and will, in the next Session, bring forward legislation—the admirably simple template for which is the Marriage Act 1949 (Amendment) Bill, reintroduced in 2021 by the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and awaiting a Second Reading. This is an open-clause Bill to:
“Amend the Marriage Act 1949 to create an offence of purporting to solemnize an unregistered marriage.”
Its simple message is that all future marriages in the United Kingdom will require to be registered. What could be simpler than that?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I respectfully remind the House that the Back-Bench advisory speaking time is six minutes. Thank you.
Town and Country Planning (Napier Barracks) Special Development Order 2021
Lord Sharpe of Epsom Excerpts(2 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I beg to move that the House do now adjourn. I of course wish all noble Lords a very happy Easter.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
A very happy Easter to everybody.
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Lord Sharpe of Epsom ExcerptsTuesday 22nd March 2022
(2 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Sharpe of Epsom
That this House do not insist on its Amendment 58, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 58A.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I will also speak to Lords Amendments 89 and 146, and Amendments 114 to 116, which are in this group.
Noble Lords will recall that Amendment 58, put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, would confer a power on the Secretary of State, by regulations, to apply any provisions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to the investigation of offences by officers of the Food Standards Agency’s National Food Crime Unit. As I set out during the debate on Report, the Government recognise the serious nature of food crime and the importance of empowering the National Food Crime Unit to investigate these offences independently, so that its specialist knowledge is put to best use and the burden on the police is reduced. We support the principle behind the noble Lord’s amendment and recognise his concern on the likelihood of another food safety scandal.
However, it remains the case that there is further work to do before we can move forward with legislation. Before proceeding with an extension of police powers to the National Food Crime Unit, we would need reassurance that what is proposed is necessary and proportionate and that suitable accountability arrangements will be in place, including in respect of the investigation of complaints.
Specifically, we will need to work with the National Food Crime Unit, the Independent Office for Police Conduct and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services on establishing a formal independent oversight framework for the NFCU’s exercise of these powers and the potential for the NFCU to be brought under their respective jurisdictions, as the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority has been. This is likely to require other legislative changes in addition to that provided for in Amendment 58.
Given that we are dealing with intrusive powers of the state, I am sure that noble Lords will understand that we must ensure that these necessary oversight mechanisms are in place in tandem with conferring certain police powers on the NFCU and not legislate for these separately as an afterthought. These are complex issues that will require detailed consideration and I know that noble Lords would not want the Government to confer intrusive powers on the NFCU without also putting in place the arrangements for use of these powers to be properly and independently scrutinised and for any misuse of powers to be dealt with swiftly and appropriately.
We are committed to working with the Food Standards Agency and its sponsoring department, the Department of Health and Social Care, to take this work forward, as we recognise that these legislative changes are in the long-term interest of all those concerned with combating food crime. The Health Secretary has agreed that the Food Standards Agency should publicly consult on the question of additional investigatory powers later in the spring, which will allow a broad spectrum of views to inform and enhance the development of these proposals. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and other noble Lords want to make progress with this issue, but I hope that this House will agree with the other place that it is premature to legislate in this Bill and that additional time is needed to get the package of legislative changes right.
Turning to Lords Amendments 89 and 146, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Best, my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham and other noble Lords who have campaigned with such determination and, I might add, so effectively for the repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824. The Government agree that the Act is antiquated and no longer fit for purpose. That is why we have brought forward amendments in lieu to consign this outdated Hanoverian statute to history.
However, as my noble friend Lady Williams indicated on Report, we must balance our role in providing essential support for the vulnerable with making sure that we do not weaken the ability of the police to protect communities who play an important role in local partnership approaches to reducing rough sleeping. We must ensure that the police have the tools that they need to effectively respond to behaviour that impacts negatively on communities and to protect all individuals.
Therefore, although the Government are committed to repealing the Vagrancy Act in full in England and Wales, these provisions will be commenced only once we have suitable replacement legislation in place. As the Policing Minister indicated in the debate in the Commons, it is our intention to commence the repeal within 18 months of Royal Assent. As a first step, we intend to consult on this issue in the coming months.
In the meantime, we will deliver a bold new rough sleeping strategy, which will set out how we will end rough sleeping, building on recent success in ensuring that rough sleeping is prevented in the first instance and is effectively responded to in the rare cases where it does occur, but also ensuring that our police have the ability to intervene where needed to keep people safe.
Finally, the House will recall that Amendments 114, 115 and 116 seek to specify matters to be addressed in the report on the operation of the pilot for serious violence reduction orders and to provide for the national rollout of SVROs to be conditional on a parliamentary vote. I appreciate the case that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and other noble Lords have made and agree that the pilot must be robust and its evaluation thorough. The assessment of the pilot will be conducted by an independent evaluator and the Government will consider thoroughly the findings of the report on pilot before any decision is made to roll SVROs out across England and Wales. The report will be laid before Parliament. However, commencement regulations are not normally subject to any parliamentary procedure and, although we are not bound to follow the precedents in this regard, the Government remain of the view that this approach should not be changed for SVROs.
However, we accept that the Bill can and should say more about the evaluation of the pilot and the content of the report on its outcome. Amendments 116A and 116B agreed by the Commons are directed to this end. These amendments specify a non-exhaustive list of matters that must be addressed in the report of the pilot. They include information on the number of offenders with an SVRO; information about the offences that were the basis for application for an SVRO; information about the exercise by constables of the powers in Section 342E of the Sentencing Code; an assessment of the impact of SVROs on people with protected characteristics within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010; an initial assessment of the impact of SVROs on reoffending rates of those who are subject to an SVRO; an assessment of the impact on offenders of being subject to an SVRO; and information about the number of offences committed under Section 342G of the Sentencing Code and the number of suspected offences under that section that have been investigated. This a comprehensive list and, as I indicated, it is not intended to be exhaustive.
We have listened and acted. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, will agree that the Commons amendments in lieu respect the spirit of her amendments. For all those reasons, I invite the House to support the Motions in my noble friend’s name. I beg to move.
Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for his comments and to all noble Lords who participated in this short debate. I will try to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that we fully recognise the need to make quick progress with the consultation on extending Police and Criminal Evidence Act powers to the Food Standards Agency and then to introduce the necessary legislation as soon as parliamentary time allows.
The noble Lord very properly pushed me on a credible argument for this. I refer back to one of the paragraphs in my opening remarks: we specifically need to work with the National Food Crime Unit, the Independent Office for Police Conduct and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services on establishing a formal independent oversight framework for the NFCU’s exercise of these powers and the potential for the NFCU to be brought under their respective jurisdictions. The noble Lord referred to gangmasters; that is what happened with the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority. That is likely to require other legislative changes in addition to those provided for in Amendment 58. The issue is one of linked legislation. I have no doubt that the noble Lord will monitor this closely and I will ensure that he is kept informed of all developments. I hope that, on that basis, he will not press his Motion A1.
My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham asked about our commitment to commencing the repeal of the Vagrancy Act just as soon as we have consulted on and legislated for replacement legislation. The noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Rosser, asked me precisely when. Perhaps it would help to clarify this if I read out what the Minister said in the Commons:
“On the undertaking that I was asked to give about the Vagrancy Act, let me say that 18 months is a maximum. If we can act faster, we will, but intensive work will obviously be required to get us there.”—[Official Report, Commons, 28/2/22; col. 855.]
My noble friend Lord Young asked about the consultation. All I can say is that it will take place this spring.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, quite rightly asked why the House will not necessarily have a debate on the SVRO pilot. We have done this because, subject to the Bill receiving Royal Assent, we expect the pilot to take two years, having started in early 2023. It will then take some two or three months to complete the evaluation. That timetable firmly takes us beyond the life of this Parliament. I hope that the noble Lord understands that it would not be right for me to commit a future Government or Chief Whip to provide parliamentary time to a debate on the report of the pilot. That is not within my gift or anyone’s gift. But we have said that in principle we endorse the case that has been made for such a debate and we understand the concerns. Therefore, we commit to sending all noble Lords the terms of reference for the independent evaluation of the pilot once they have been finalised and to lay a copy of those in the Library of the House.
In conclusion, I hope that, in the light of the Commons amendments in lieu providing clarity in the Bill on the matters to be addressed through the pilot and the observations about affording this House the opportunity to debate the pilot report, the noble Lord, and indeed the whole House, will support Motion L when we come to it.
Lord Paddick (LD)
I am still confused, despite what the noble Lord read from Commons Hansard. There will be consultation and replacement legislation, but will the repeal start in 18 months’ time or will the Vagrancy Act in its entirety be repealed in a maximum of 18 months? I am still not sure.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I go back to the statement that I just read: 18 months is a maximum for this issue to be resolved.
Lord Rooker (Lab)
My Lords, I will make two very short points. All the issues that the Minister has talked about could be dealt with in the regulations—that is the whole point. The issue of parliamentary time is the giveaway.
From time to time, the House is fortunate to have one or more of its Members on the board of the FSA, such as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who was the founding chair of the FSA. He is tied up in committee this morning, but I have his authority to say that he will vote for this Motion. Currently, we have someone sitting in the Chamber who, as a member of the board, has inside knowledge of the crimes that the Food Standard Agency’s National Food Crime Unit is dealing with. However, because the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, is a member of the board, he cannot speak in this debate—but he will vote for the Motion.