Immigration: Eurostar
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Lord Berkeley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to enable Eurostar to resume regular services between Brussels and Lille while avoiding any delays caused by immigration control being conducted at St Pancras.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, there has been no suspension of regular Eurostar services between Brussels and London which also stop at Lille. Following misuse of Brussels to Lille tickets by those seeking to avoid UK border checks, Eurostar has restricted the sale of tickets to casual travellers to three trains a day. Only these services are subject to routine immigration checks at St Pancras. We seek to keep delays to a minimum.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response but is he aware that the consequence of all this is that passengers coming into the UK from Brussels, Lille, Disneyland Paris and anywhere except Paris have to queue to get through immigration for between half an hour and one hour at St Pancras? I have queued twice and I saw lots of families travelling from Disneyland Paris, of whom probably 99 per cent were British, having to queue for an hour, which is rather hard on them. Why cannot the immigration service process passports on the train after the passengers have left Lille, as it used to?
Lord Henley
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, the ideal would be to process the passports at Brussels, which we try to do for seven of the 10 or 11 trains a day that go from there, stopping at Lille, that do not allow people to buy casual tickets. The noble Lord knows of the so-called Lille loophole, which we want to plug. As he has said, one solution would be to have staff on the train. We believe that that would be unnecessarily expensive and would not be cost-effective. We are talking about only three trains a day being affected by the Lille loophole. We think that we can continue to negotiate with the Brussels authorities to get them to allow us to do all the checks on all the trains, including the three on which casual tickets are allowed to be bought, at Brussels as would be appropriate.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, has the Minister been able to visit British Transport Police operations at St Pancras to look at what happens in relation to child trafficking? In a recent debate, he indicated that he would like to do so. My noble friend Lady Doocey pointed out that a number of simple steps could be taken to protect unaccompanied children coming into this country, including checks on the identity of such children and on the people collecting them, and a dedicated space on the train. Has he been able to follow any of those up?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I have not yet been able to visit St Pancras but I certainly hope to do so. My noble friend’s question is going slightly wide of the Question on the Order Paper, but it is valuable in that it points to the need not only to maintain appropriate security to provide the proper checks and safeguards for those who potentially are being child trafficked but to be able to do that in as user-friendly a manner as possible so that the complaints to which the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, referred do not happen as well.
Baroness Goudie
Following on from my noble friend’s question, just before the Recess when we had a debate on human trafficking relating to Eurostar, I asked the Minister whether the Government would look at negotiating with the Eurostar authorities and the company which runs it to have the same arrangements as we have with airlines. Airlines are fined for bringing through children and adults who are to be human trafficked. The Minister promised to look at this and we have not yet received a reply.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I will make sure that a reply comes to the noble Baroness in due course. Obviously, we continue to negotiate on these matters with Eurostar. I should point out that Eurostar is a private company and we cannot order it to close the so-called Lille loophole with which we are trying to deal. Certainly, we will try to get to other matters and will negotiate accordingly.
Lord Bradshaw
Will the Minister turn his mind to the situation developing as regards trains from Germany which stop at several places before going into the tunnel? The same problem that applies to Lille will apply to a lot of other stations on the continent. Better arrangements need to be made.
Lord Henley
I am very grateful to my noble friend for raising that point. I understand that the German railways are already planning this and that there might be services from late 2015, so we have some time. He is right to point to the problems because of the confines of the concourse at St Pancras and other places, and the need to make sure that we can sort this matter out in the country of origin. That is relatively easy when you are talking about Brussels, Lille and London. It is considerably harder in the case of trains coming from a number of different stations in Germany. At that point different options will have to be looked at, but we have at least three years to do so.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, I declare an interest, having been through the tunnel over 1,500 times, getting to work here and going home again, and indeed having lived to tell the tale. The Minister said that the Government would be trying to set up a system whereby the border agency’s immigration controls would be conducted in Brussels. He must be aware that this system works extremely well in Paris; it saves a lot of time and there is absolutely no delay arriving in St Pancras. I hope that he will look into this and tell us what the problem is. They are very friendly people. This morning when I came through I was asked by the immigration officer what I was planning to do with the House of Lords Reform Bill. I declined to share my views with him, in the same way that at the moment I decline to share my views with the House on that question.
Lord Henley
I commend the noble Lord on his diligence in attending this House and the frequency with which he has come through the tunnel. The system in Brussels works pretty well for most trains, in that most people go through the appropriate border security checks. The problem is that a number of people use Brussels to Lille as a commuter line rather than what it was originally designed for, a Brussels to London line. Those people are exempted from going through passport checks by the Brussels authorities and we cannot order them so to do; that is under EU rules. We therefore had to seek with Eurostar some solution to that problem, which does not arise in the case of those coming from Paris. There is similarly not a problem coming from London because, as the noble Lord knows, we do not allow people to use London to Ashford as a commuter route. It is the use of Brussels to Lille as a commuter route on that service that causes the problem.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am a little disturbed at the Minister’s complacency that we have got three years to sort this out. After all, the Government have had two years to sort out a range of problems, and the problems are getting worse rather than better. It is a very serious concern to all of us that a service that we are all proud of, the Channel Tunnel service, may in fact prove to be less advantageous to the travelling public in future because of these difficulties over passport checks. I hear what he says about additional expense, but if the expense is not borne by the service, it is borne by the travelling passenger having to wait for hours at the receiving station, St Pancras. Can he look at this issue with some urgency and produce a solution to it?
Lord Henley
I commend the noble Lord on the urgency with which he got to his feet, along with his colleagues on the opposition Front Bench. They have obviously been well rested by their three weeks off.
We are not complacent on this issue. All I am saying is that there is a serious problem. Part of the problem relates to the design of St Pancras and getting the passport checks done there. We would therefore like to have the checks done at the point of exit. Obviously that problem is going to be made more difficult once one has trains coming in from Germany and other places. At that point, we might have to look again at having checks done on the trains. As I said—although the noble Lord has not been that speedy—we have three years to do this because we are not likely to see trains coming in from Germany until the end of 2015.
Alcohol: Strategy
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will introduce legislation to implement their alcohol strategy.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, the Government will launch a number of consultations in the forthcoming months on key proposals in the alcohol strategy. This includes consultations on the level to be set for a minimum unit price for alcohol and a proposed ban on multibuy discounts in supermarkets and off-licences. Following the outcomes of those consultations, the Government will consider the necessary legislation to take those proposals forward.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
In thanking the Minister for that reply and welcoming both the strategy and the commitment to a minimum unit price for alcohol, I ask the Government to undertake to continue to resist the blandishments of the drinks industry and to make every effort to move forward quickly with introducing the minimum alcohol price.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I cannot give any commitment about when and how we will do that. Obviously, primary legislation will be necessary to bring forward a minimum unit price. However, I can make it clear that the Prime Minister has given his own personal commitment that we will bring in a minimum unit price. That is why we are consulting on what the proposed and proper level should be.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, can the Minister tell me what the situation is? It is reported in the press that a minimum unit price might be illegal under European Commission rules as being anti-competitive. Does he have any views on that? What procedures would we have to follow to deal with that? We are very concerned on health grounds and support the idea.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not going to give my views on the legality. That would obviously be a matter for the European Court of Justice to decide in due course. I understand that the level at which we set the minimum unit price would be relevant. That is a factor that we will take into account in the consultation.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that just to convey the message of sensible drinking is not enough to raise awareness? What are needed are very clear messages. How will those clear messages be targeted at the general public?
Lord Henley
My Lords, minimum unit pricing is just one part of the whole strategy announced by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in her Statement late last Friday. Unfortunately, I was not able to repeat the Statement in this House because the House was not sitting. There will be other parts of the strategy, and the noble Baroness is right to talk about education and getting the message across. That is something that we will have to consider very carefully. We will consider not just direct education in schools but all other forms of education as part of that process.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Do the Government plan to consult on legislative controls for alcohol home delivery services, particularly at night to a party which has run out of alcohol and during the day to those who are already inebriated? I understand that these services do not fall under the current licensing controls.
Lord Henley
My understanding is that any sale of alcohol falls under the control of the licensing laws. I appreciate that it is very difficult to deal with these matters, particularly when it comes to home deliveries of pizzas or whatever the noble Baroness is referring to. Again, that is something that we will have to consider if there is evidence of abuse because, as the noble Baroness is right to point out, it is illegal to sell alcohol to those who are inebriated.
Lord Taverne
My Lords, I warmly congratulate the Government on abandoning their previous preference for banning below cost sales of alcohol and on adopting a policy that was strongly recommended by the previous Chief Medical Officer, by Sir Ian Gilmore, who is a great expert on this, and by a very convincing study of drinking in Newcastle, which is not known for its abstinence. I suggest to the Minister that this is only a first step, because a higher price could be even more effective. Does he not agree that it is rather sad that the shadow Home Secretary in another place, instead of welcoming something of great importance for the future, should have used the occasion of the Government’s announcement for making party-political points?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I shall not comment on my noble friend’s last remark. However, when my right honourable friend announced the strategy on Friday, other than objecting to the date of the announcement, I did not notice much that the party opposite objected to in the Statement. As regards my noble friend’s other points, I know Newcastle and have seen some of the problems that city centres such as that in Newcastle can face on Friday and Saturday nights as a result of excessive drinking. That is what we are trying to target. As I said, minimum pricing per unit of alcohol is just one part of it but I commend to the House other parts of the strategy, which will be available in the Printed Paper Office.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, given that those aged under 18 make up as much as a third of alcohol-related A&E attendances in some areas, does not more need to be done to inform schoolchildren of the dangers of alcohol abuse? Will the Minister consult colleagues in the Department for Education, including the noble Lord sitting next to him, to ensure that there is an improvement in the information given to schools?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I assure the right reverend Prelate that my noble friend from the Department for Education heard that. However, he is right to draw attention to the problems of underage drinking and particularly to the prevalence of underage drinkers ending up in A&E departments. In my own part of the world in west Cumberland, I have seen some very good work being done by schools in Workington, which, sadly, has the highest rate of admissions to A&E in the country. However, as a result of the work being done there, I hope that in a few years’ time we will see those rates fall, and fall considerably.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, I have a brief question. Will the Government legislate to show energy and calorie levels on the labelling on alcohol products?
Lord Henley
My Lords, that is not part of what we are proposing at the moment but we will no doubt consider it when the legislation comes forward. I look forward to discussing the amendment that the noble Lord will put forward on that occasion.
Lord Flight
My Lords, perhaps I may counsel that describing something as bad and telling adolescents that they should not do it is about the best way of encouraging them to do it. That needs to be borne in mind when providing guidance.
Lord Henley
My Lords, that argument can be put forward but I am not sure that it is necessarily always the case. I still think that we have a duty to offer appropriate warnings. If those warnings are made in the right way by the right people, the right message can be got across to young people. That is why I referred to what is taking place in west Cumberland.
Alcohol: Minimum Pricing
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Lord Renton of Mount Harry
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what practical issues they considered with respect to the establishment and regulation of a minimum price for alcohol.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, as I said in my earlier Answer, the Government will launch a consultation on the level to be set for a minimum unit price for alcohol. The Government will consider a range of issues in detail as part of this consultation.
Lord Renton of Mount Harry
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister. Perhaps I might add to the points made very usefully in answers to the earlier Question tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. I understand well the need to combat binge drinking, but does the Minister agree that the minimum unit price proposals are very hard to understand or measure? For example, I read in the Guardian last Thursday that one unit is 10 millilitres of pure alcohol and that is equivalent to half a glass of wine. There are big glasses, large glasses and small glasses, and that does not tell us nearly enough. Does the Minister accept that more explanation is needed of this public intervention that is so very important?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am sorry if my noble friend finds these matters hard to understand and measure. That is one of the reasons why we are mounting this consultation. It depends what my noble friend drinks, but he might be aware that it is possible to buy a can of lager in a supermarket for as little as 20 pence, or a 2 litre bottle of cider for as little as £1.69. We think that those sorts of prices, charged particularly in the off-trade, are encouraging drinking that can lead to very severe anti-social behaviour. That is why we think it is important to look at the possibilities of a minimum unit price and consult on the appropriate level.
Lord Snape
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the main beneficiary of the Government’s proposals for unit pricing will be the drinks retailers? Does he agree that the issue of excessive drinking involves all social classes in the United Kingdom? Could he perhaps tell the House how doubling the price of White Lightning in supermarkets would affect the activities of organisations such as the Bullingdon Club?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I accept that it is possible that a minimum unit price could lead to extra profits for the retail industry, particularly for the supermarkets, but I am sure that they will find other ways to compete. We do not think it is right that they should be competing by means of low-priced alcohol that leads to the disorder of the sort we discussed earlier.
Lord McColl of Dulwich
Does my noble friend agree that the Government are to be congratulated on their strong stance on the obesity epidemic, declaring that the answer was to eat fewer calories and drink less alcohol? Will they go further and declare openly that although alcohol is a very pleasant poison to drink, it is nevertheless a poison?
Lord Henley
My Lords, we do not want to stop people drinking alcohol in a perfectly legitimate manner. I accept my noble friend’s medical advice that it is a poison, but it is one that we have grown accustomed to over the years. What we want to avoid is excessive consumption of the sort that leads to disorderly scenes in some of our town centres, which I referred to in my answers to the earlier Question.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, does the Minister recollect that in replying to the first Question, he very sensibly said that the price of alcohol was only one weapon in the armoury of the Government in seeking to tackle alcohol abuse? Is it the case, as I believe it is, that for the last 100 years or so it has been a criminal offence on licensed premises for drink to be sold to or for a person who is already inebriated? If that is the current law, has it not fallen into desuetude? Will the Government concentrate on that? It could be a very potent weapon.
Lord Henley
The noble Lord understands the law very well. He is absolutely correct in that. These are matters for enforcement and we think that they should be taken up by the police and, subsequently, the licensing authorities. It is possible to remove the licence from an individual or a pub if it sells alcohol to someone who is obviously inebriated.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, have the Government considered achieving the minimum price by raising the tax rather than the price? If you raise the tax, we all benefit. If you raise the price, it is a windfall for the drinks industry.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I have to be very careful about what I say about changes to the taxation regime. It is slightly more complicated than that in that you would have to even out the tax rates on different forms of alcohol, which vary a great deal. That is one of the reasons why sometimes you find the two-litre bottle of cider that I mentioned earlier being so much cheaper than equivalent forms of alcohol. At this stage, we are looking at minimum pricing but no doubt it would be possible to look at other matters as well.
Lord Roberts of Conwy
My Lords, have the Government considered the 24-hour drinking introduced by the party opposite? Is that not partly to blame for what we are suffering socially now?
Lord Henley
My Lords, certainly the consequences of the changes made under the previous regime were not exactly what we were led to believe would be the consequences. It did not lead to the European-style drinking culture—the cafe culture—that the then Prime Minister thought that it would lead to. That is why we made a number of changes to the licensing regime, which, again, is part of our overall strategy on alcohol.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, we all know the dangers of excessive use of alcohol, which is a terrible thing. However, in the interest of balance of all these questions, does the Minister agree that sensible consumption of alcohol, or “poison” as it was called, can be very enjoyable and has been an integral part of western civilisation for millennia?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Lord in those remarks. He will remember from his naval experience—I do not know how far he goes back—that originally a tot of rum was provided to all serving naval officers and ratings. That was removed because of the increasing complexity of ships and the technology on board, and the thought that it might not be a sensible thing for them to continue to drink. But, quite rightly, the Navy did not go dry in the style of the United States Navy. The noble Lord is right to make the point that there is a sensible balance to be drawn on this matter.
Piracy
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Lord Hannay of Chiswick
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the assistance given by the Serious Organised Crime Agency to the Regional Anti-Piracy Prosecutions and Intelligence Co-ordination Centre in the Seychelles will include information gleaned from suspicious activity reports.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, no decision has been made on whether SOCA will share information from suspicious activity reports with the Regional Anti-Piracy Prosecutions and Intelligence Co-ordination Centre. We are still determining the centre’s requirements, which will include safeguards for the protection of personal data.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response—although, alas, there is not a huge amount to thank him for but just a little bit—but I should be grateful if he would ensure that we are told when a decision has been reached on this matter. Would he not agree, moreover, that now that the Government are getting a better grip on all aspects of the problems of Somalia, including that of piracy, it is high time that the Government insisted that anyone assembling a ransom should file a suspicious activity report about that? Would he also confirm that the Prime Minister has now asked for a proper study to be made of all aspects of the issue of assembling ransoms?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I thought that my Answer was quite helpful. However, I can give the noble Lord an assurance that he will be told, and the House will be informed, when we have made a decision. As regards whether SARs should be used whenever a ransom has been paid, the paying of ransom, as the noble Lord will be aware, is not illegal as such, although we deplore the practice because we do not think it assists. I can also confirm that, as the noble Lord put it, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister does want further work to be looked at in this area to see whether it should be something for which a SAR should automatically be filed if that is the case.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, it has been known for some time that terrorist groups such as AQIM have used kidnap for ransom as a source of income. Why did the Government not mention this in the course of the extended correspondence with the EU Select Committee about piracy off the coast of Somalia?
Lord Henley
My Lords, we made it clear that we do not believe that the money going in ransoms to—if I can put it this way—the ordinary Somali pirates is generally going into terrorists’ hands. What is being gathered by AQIM is coming from other kidnapping operations and, as the noble Lord will be aware, there is a very good chance that that is going into terrorism operations, in which case it would be illegal to pay that ransom.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, is the national maritime intelligence centre now fully manned and operational at Northwood?
Lord Henley
My Lords, to the best of my knowledge, that is the case, but if I am wrong, of course I will write to the noble Lord.
Lord Marlesford
My Lords, given that the money-laundering regulations, which are part of the law now, make it perfectly clear that any payment made in connection with a criminal activity has to be reported to the government authorities and that consent has to be given before any payments are made, why has there been a de facto exemption in the case of payments negotiated by insurance companies or their representatives for ransoms in connection with piracy, which, whatever else it is, is clearly a criminal activity?
Lord Henley
My Lords, the simple fact is that, much as we deplore the payment of ransoms—Her Majesty's Government have made that clear for some time—they are not illegal as such. That is why, in answer to the supplementary question from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, I made it clear that the Prime Minister has asked for work to be conducted in this field.
The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that a heavy burden has fallen on the criminal court in Mombasa, in Kenya? To what extent are the Seychelles and Mauritius taking that burden from Kenya?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I think we are going slightly beyond the original Question, but the noble Earl raises an interesting point and I would prefer to write to him about that.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is there a time limit for the further work that is being undertaken by the Government?
Lord Henley
My Lords, there is no time limit and it would be wrong to impose one at this stage. All I can make clear is that the Prime Minister has asked for further work to be done.
Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2012
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Lord De Mauley
That the draft orders and regulations laid before the House on 9 and 28 February and 1 March be approved.
Relevant documents: 41st and 43rd Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 20 and 21 March.
Criminal Records Bureau
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, the Criminal Records Bureau has issued more than 31 million certificates since its launch in March 2002 and has received more than £868 million in fees. The bureau does not hold any information to determine what portion of this cost has been paid by applicants, employers or other bodies.
Lord Vinson
I thank the Minister for his very considered reply. Trust is the glue that holds society together. Is he aware that many organisations find that this staggering level of CRB checks is overdone, is disproportionate to the risk and is putting off good volunteers? As aggressive paedophilia is rare, and unlikely in the presence of others, will he reissue the sensible Home Office guidance on this matter and so help re-engender trust and good neighbourliness?
Lord Henley
My Lords, my noble friend is right to draw attention to the importance of trust. He is also right to draw attention to the very high number of certificates that have been issued. This is a matter that we have been addressing in the course of the Protection of Freedoms Bill. I refer my noble friend to the impact assessment of last year on that Bill, which estimated that there would be a reduction of some 50 per cent in the number of such certificates being issued, dropping from about 3.7 million a year to something like 1.7 million. I think that is a step in the right direction.
Baroness Deech
Will the Minister be good enough to give the House his opinion of the effect that the following scenario will have on the outreach work carried out by this House? I invite a small group of A-level students to visit this House, as I have done before, to sit in the Chamber, to have tea and to take a small tour, and the teacher writes asking me please to confirm that I have had a CRB check.
Lord Henley
Obviously, the noble Baroness is a most tremendous risk to the public and to children and I hope that she will consider these matters very carefully. No—that is what we want to address and it is the point of some of the changes we are making as a result of the Protection of Freedoms Bill. It is why we will keep these matters under review and it is why my right honourable friend the Home Secretary launched her initial review into these matters last year. I go back to the supplementary question of my noble friend Lord Vinson when he talked about trust being important. We think it is vital that people take a common-sense approach in these matters.
Baroness Walmsley
When and in what way will the Government be communicating to the ISA and the police the statement that my noble friend made last week during the passage of the Protection of Freedoms Bill in response to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bichard: that the ISA can pass on to the police the information that has led to a discretionary bar so that the police can then use their discretion to release that information to a conscientious employer who requests it?
Lord Henley
My Lords, the Bill has not completed its passage and it will obviously have to come back to this House after consideration of Lords amendments in another place. After completion, when we have had our last chance to discuss these matters, we will issue that guidance.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Further to that question, the noble Baroness suggested that it would be discretionary for the ISA to pass such information to the police. I had understood the Minister to say that his intention was for that information to be passed to the police automatically, so that they could use their discretion. Does he agree that having two sets of discretion in this area is likely to lead to individual cases falling through the net, which could be very damaging to the children who might subsequently be abused?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I do not have the precise words that I used on that occasion, but the noble Lord is probably right to imply that we were offering discretion to the police.
The Earl of Erroll
What percentage of these certificates would reveal either a criminal record or information that would bar these people from working?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I cannot answer that question, but I can say that in the 10 years in which this system has been running some 130,000 potentially unsuitable people have been prevented from working with children and vulnerable adults. The noble Earl can use that figure against the figure of 31 million and work out his own percentage.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that it is the Government’s view that in general the establishment of CRB checks and the system that came from it was essential to ensure that vulnerable people are protected? Having said that, and coming back to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, does he agree that part of the problem is overzealous interpretation by a number of organisations? Perhaps the Government’s best efforts should be put into working with those organisations on guidance, information and education, so as their decisions on the number of people who need CRB checks might be more proportionate.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I accept that it was necessary to bring in the CRB and these checks, but things had become out of proportion. That is why my right honourable friend announced her review and is why we want to scale things back to allow people to take proper responsibility for these matters. That is what we are trying to do, and it was what we were trying to do in the Protection of Freedoms Bill, but we will obviously keep these matters under review. If we can further scale down the checks without putting children or vulnerable adults at risk, we will do so.
Lord Flight
My Lords, when I was at school, it was quite common for people to have school exchanges and stay with a family in France or Germany, pick up the language and learn a bit. These exchanges have virtually disappeared for the same reason that we have been hearing—checks have to be done on the families with whom the children will be staying. Does the Minister agree that this is yet another system that is over the top? Surely, the schools themselves can do checks on children’s parents.
Lord Henley
My right honourable friend brought in the review exactly because of those concerns—damage to exchange visits, volunteering and the like. That is why she conducted her review last year and is why we made changes during the course of the Protection of Freedoms Bill.
Lord Marlesford
My Lords, will the Minister try to ensure that the Criminal Records Bureau focuses on areas of real priority? For example, does the bureau hold records of people’s passports, including foreign passports? After all, if you want to stop someone on the watch list leaving or entering the country, it is quite useful to know what passports they hold, including foreign ones.
Lord Henley
My Lords, without notice, I am not sure that I can answer my noble friend’s question about passports, but I shall certainly offer to write to him in due course.
Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2012
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Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2012.
Relevant document: 41st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, these regulations concern fees charged for visa, immigration and nationality services. The fees paid by those making visa, nationality and immigration applications must be specified in regulations made under Section 51 of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006. Regulations that set fees exceeding the administrative cost of processing an application must be approved by both Houses before they are made; this procedural requirement is imposed by Section 42 of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004. Regulations dealing with fees at or below cost are subject to the negative resolution procedure.
The intention is to introduce two sets of regulations on 6 April that will replace existing fees regulations. The first set of regulations will deal with above-cost fees and must be approved by Parliament before it is made, and it is a draft of these regulations that is before the House today. The second set, dealing with fees set at or below cost, does not require prior approval from Parliament and has already been made. The regulations were laid before Parliament on 15 March. I recognise that having fees in two sets of regulations makes things a little complicated, and I am happy to take points on any of the fees proposals here today.
In general we are proposing to limit the majority of increases to 2 per cent. For example, we propose to increase the short-term visit visa applications by 2 per cent, as we recognise the importance of the visitor route to the United Kingdom economy. This is still about half the actual cost to the UK Border Agency of processing this type of application. Increases to fees that do not follow this approach include tier 1 general extensions of leave; these will increase by 50 per cent. This route is open only to those currently in the UK on a tier 1 general visa that is due to expire during 2013 and confers benefits including unrestricted access to the United Kingdom labour market, and ultimately the ability to apply for indefinite leave to remain. The new fee better reflects the value of these benefits.
Fees for tier 2 visas for migrants coming to the UK to work for a sponsor will rise by 20 per cent to £480; an incremental step towards our objective of aligning fees for the original entry visa with the fee paid in the United Kingdom to extend stay in this route. Thirdly, for media representatives coming to the UK to work for an overseas employer on a long-term assignment, this fee is being increased to align with the tier 2 visa fee to reflect the similarities between the two routes. Fourthly, for tier 2 intra-company transfer visas of less than 12 months’ duration and extensions under this route in the UK, this increase reflects the benefits conferred by this route.
The tier 4 visa fee is being increased to cover the full costs of processing these visas. In the current economic climate we can no longer subsidise these visas. The visa for extended family members of refugees and those with humanitarian protection coming to the UK is also moving to cost recovery. We are aligning it with similar settlement visa routes following changes that were introduced in the Immigration Rules in 2011.
Licence fees to those organisations that sponsor migrants in the UK are increasing to better reflect the administrative costs. For large organisations sponsoring employees to work under tier 2, the fees will be £1,500, while for small businesses and charities we will charge £500.
New fees being introduced include a graduate entrepreneur route in the points-based system. This route is being developed for those who have been identified by United Kingdom universities as having developed world-class innovative ideas or entrepreneurial skills but have yet to meet the requirements of the tier 1 entrepreneur route. This will allow them to develop their business in the United Kingdom
The new fees will cover extending the mobile biometric enrolment service to include applications for indefinite leave to remain, widening the range of services that we can offer our customers, and enabling those who have come to the UK under the tier 1 exceptional talent route that launched last year to extend their stay; this will ensure that we retain the skills and talents of those whom we have attracted to work and base themselves here.
Finally, the new fees will also cover providing certain stateless persons with the ability to acquire—or renounce—the status of British protected person. In addition, the fees paid by dependants of members of the Armed Forces will be frozen at current levels in recognition of our commitments under the Armed Forces covenant.
Legal migration brings economic, cultural and social benefits to the United Kingdom. We will continue to ensure that fees for immigration and nationality send a clear signal overseas that the country will go on welcoming the brightest and the best, and these proposals support that message.
We also continue to monitor the economic, equality and diversity impacts of our changes and to ensure that our fees continue to be priced at levels which make them competitive when compared with those in other countries.
I believe that these regulations provide a basis for a sustainable immigration system that noble Lords will want, and I commend them to the Committee.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Once again, it is a delight to follow the noble Lord, Lord Henley, as we deal with orders and regulations in Grand Committee. I am grateful for his very persuasive arguments in favour of these regulations, but I have one or two points to raise.
Clearly, the regulations are about making UKBA pay its way in the world. Does there come a point where providing additional services on a premium basis and dramatically increasing the cost of applying for particular forms run the risk of effectively selling British citizenship? How precisely does the Minister assess the value to an individual who is making a particular application? That is how the amount is now set, it seems. It is not the amount it costs to run or provide the service, but the assessment by UKBA or the Minister of the supposed value to the applicants of the benefits that accrue to them. It would be interesting to know how those figures are arrived at.
What impact does the Minister think that the increases will have on the total number of people applying to come to the UK or to stay once they are already here? Will he say a little more about how much additional money will be raised for UKBA? Some increases are higher than others, but the noble Lord referred to an average of 2 per cent. Clearly, it would be interesting to know the impact on UKBA’s income.
Another point raised in the debate on these regulations in the other place was in relation to Armed Forces personnel and charges for visas. The Minister there referred to the relationship to the military covenant. Can the noble Lord explain a little more about this issue?
Finally, I come to the impact on business and the UK economy. The noble Lord will know that the CBI has condemned the Government’s decision to increase visa fees for working migrants and their sponsors as a bitter blow to UK business. Neil Carberry, director for employment and skills policy at the CBI employers’ group, was scathing about the cost upgrades. He said:
“The shock announcement that some work permit charges will rise between 20 and 60 per cent will come as a bitter blow to businesses. Firms have yet to see the improvements in customer service they were promised, in return for the last tranche of inflation-busting rises last year”.
There are two points here. First, there is the concern that increases in fees will be made but the service will not improve. That is a very important issue that the noble Lord needs to address. Secondly, there is the impact on the UK. I do not know whether the noble Lord has had time to study the article this morning by Willie Walsh, the boss of British Airways, who talks about the attitude of business people in China investing in the UK. Essentially, the perceived discouragement of overseas business men and women coming to this country, combined with policies on airport capacity, is having a chilling effect on investment in this country from countries such as China.
I watched the Budget Statement and was very disappointed that it had very little to say about how we are going to get this country growing again. The Minister may say that that is a little wider than the Home Office’s usual brief, but how policy is developed in relation to immigration and to fees can play an important part. It would be good to know how the Minister will respond to the concern of many businesses. This is also very much related to the issue of higher education and the ludicrous restrictions made on overseas students coming into legitimate institutions in this country. All that is doing is undermining one of our most successful economic sectors.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I have been asked quite a number of questions and will endeavour to answer as many as I can. I apologise in advance for those that I miss and will in due course write to noble Lords to pick up anything that I fail to deal with.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made the allegation that we were simply selling British citizenship. I do not accept that, but I think that it is right that, when setting fees above the cost, it is perfectly permissible to look at the value to the applicant of a successful application while maintaining the United Kingdom as an attractive destination to work, study or visit. That is why we set the fee for a short-term visit below cost, while a tier 1 or settlement fee is set above cost to reflect the value of a successful application. That is certainly not going down the line, as the noble Lord was suggesting, of selling British citizenship.
The noble Lord then asked about the effect of the fee increases on the number of those coming in. We believe that our fees continue to represent good value for money; indeed, the visa fee is only a small proportion of the overall cost that any individual would pay if they decided to come to the United Kingdom. There is no evidence to suggest that the fee proposals will undermine ongoing plans to promote the United Kingdom as an attractive destination. We do not think that they will have the effect that the noble Lord seemed to imply.
The noble Lord also asked what additional income would be available to UKBA. I can give him an assurance that something in the order of £40 million will be raised. I also make it clear to my noble friend Lady Hamwee and my noble kinsman Lord Avebury, who spoke about service standards within the UK Border Agency, that the agency is exceeding most of its service standards. However, it is important that it generates income to be able to continue to improve standards as is appropriate and to invest in making the United Kingdom border secure and effective while providing the right service for individuals as they come in.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, then moved on to the question of the Armed Forces, which I briefly touched on in my opening remarks. We have reviewed the entry clearance visa fees that apply to dependants of serving Armed Forces personnel who come to the UK to join their serving family member. The entry clearance fee for these dependants is being held at 2011-12 levels. This is in recognition of the service to the country of members of the United Kingdom Armed Forces and in support of the Government’s commitment and duty of care to members of the Armed Forces under the new Armed Forces covenant.
Baroness Hamwee
I hope that I did not put it in quite the stark terms in which he reflected it back to me. I was concerned, rather than making any allegations, because there are no details yet of a scheme to which I can respond. Is it intended that, when there is more clarity following the work to which he has referred about the particular services that might usefully come within such a scheme, there will be a further round of consultation, discussion or conversation—call it what you will—before the scheme is finalised? What I have picked up is the feeling that there is a real lack of clarity and that it is difficult for employers to respond at present.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I apologise for that misunderstanding of the point being made by my noble friend. I cannot give her an absolute guarantee that there will be further consultation, but I will certainly make sure that she is provided with the appropriate clarity that she seeks. We would obviously want to make sure that employers have that clarity as well, because if they do not they will not be able to make use of the system.
I turn to my noble friend’s questions, of which I was grateful that she gave me notice. First, with regard to the tier 1 post-study work closure supplemental, as my noble friend accepts, the focus of the debate should be on fees, but we have to look at the matter in the wider policy context for immigration. The tier 1 post-study work route will close on 6 April; currently it provides graduates with unrestricted access to the labour market for two years. A UKBA survey revealed that 30 per cent of those with post-study work leave were in low-skilled employment or unemployed. In a time of high unemployment in the UK, it was right that we should close that route. From 6 April graduates who wish to remain in the UK and work will need to apply through tier 2 and the points-based system and need to be sponsored by a licensed tier 2 sponsor. The minimum salary threshold for tier 2 is £20,000 or the appropriate rate for the job as detailed in the tier 2 codes of practice, whichever is the highest.
My noble friend also asked about the advice from the Migration Advisory Committee and what we had or had not asked it. The committee was asked to advise on appropriate economic criteria for settlement and recommended a simple pay threshold as a good indicator of skill. The cooling-off period that we referred to, which my noble friend asked about, was not part of its remit, but that was covered in the Government’s consultation document on employment-related settlement, tier 5 and overseas domestic workers. We believe that it was right to include in the changes to Immigration Rules laid on 15 March, as part of the package of changes intended to break the link between work and settlement and to reposition tier 2 as a primarily temporary route, a 12-month cooling-off period for tier 2 migrants.
I think that I have dealt with most of the points. I wanted to get on to the general criticisms of my noble kinsman—that is, my noble friend Lord Avebury—about service standards and the question as to whether refunds would be paid. As I made clear earlier, we believe that the UK Border Agency is meeting most of its targets. I accept that there will be failings on occasions; that is always the nature of things. The UKBA monitors and publishes its own service standards and makes them available on the website. It is committed to improving the service that it provides; that is why I talked about the investment and why the fees are important. It will take steps to address issues that may prevent it from achieving its service standards.
My noble kinsman then finally asked whether refunds could be paid for bad decisions. He quoted a response from the last time he tried to get something on this from the previous Government, from the noble Lord, Lord West. I do not always agree with everything that came from opposition spokesmen when they were in government, or otherwise, but on this occasion I am in full agreement with the noble Lord, Lord West, and there has been no change in policy. I hope that that deals with most of the points.
Schedule 5 to the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (Modification) Order 2012
Lord Henley Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Schedule 5 to the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (Modification) Order 2012.
Relevant document: 43rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Committee considers the draft Schedule 5 to the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (Modification) Order 2012. The draft order was laid before the House on 1 March 2012.
Protecting the public from terrorism will always be the principal priority of this Government and we are committed to ensuring that the police and others have the powers that they need to tackle terrorism. But there is also a need to guard against placing disproportionate burdens on business, industry and academia.
The purpose of the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 is to ensure that the Government have the necessary powers to counter the terrorist threat to the UK. Part 7 of the Act is intended to improve the security of dangerous biological substances that may be targeted or used by terrorists.
Schedule 5 lists the substances that are subject to the provisions of Part 7 of the Act. Any laboratory that intends to hold one of the controlled pathogens and toxins must notify the Home Office and comply with physical, personnel and electronic security advice as directed by the police. A pathogen is a biological agent that can cause disease or illness.
The purpose of the draft Schedule 5 to the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (Modification) Order 2012 is to add one pathogen to the list of controlled pathogens and toxins in Schedule 5 to the 2001 Act and to remove four pathogens. The draft order sets out the specific details of the modification, which I will not repeat now.
The list of controlled pathogens was reviewed by a group of Government, academic and industry experts with the aim of ensuring that it was up to date with scientific advances and emerging terrorist threats and diseases.
Pathogens and toxins should be added to or remain on the list only if we are satisfied that the pathogen or toxin could be used in an act of terrorism to endanger life or cause serious harm to human health. Conversely, where we are satisfied that a pathogen or toxin could not be used effectively in an act of terrorism, we should seek to remove it from the list to remove unnecessary burdens.
The approach used to review the list of controlled pathogens and toxins is a robust one. Experience with lists of pathogens produced for health and safety at work shows that there is always debate about the inclusion of individual pathogens and toxins on such lists and that they need to be reviewed from time to time as more information becomes available. The key is to make pragmatic decisions based on the available knowledge of the experts involved.
The threat posed by the possible terrorist use of pathogens and toxins remains real. It is imperative to ensure that terrorists do not have access to dangerous substances but it is also important to ensure that the measures are proportionate and important scientific research and medical use are not restricted.
If the draft order is approved by both Houses, it will come into force on 1 October 2012. I believe that the modification strikes the right balance and therefore commend it to the Committee. I beg to move.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, rather like the debate that we had on the drugs order yesterday, I think it is quite hard for lay people—certainly such as I am—to judge proposals such as this. We have to rely on the experts and are grateful that they are there to advise. My noble friend the Minister has referred to the balance that has been struck. I take the point about the need for there to be a balance, although I was interested to read in the notes attached to the impact assessment the list of criteria used by the Lightfoot review as to which biological agents should be included or excluded from the list. In particular, it was quite interesting that ease of production was one of them, since a substance, a pathogen or toxin was of a level of danger or not. I do not see that as affected by the ease of production, but I suppose that the whole area of risk is quite tricky.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I looked at the paragraph on consultation and cannot believe that the health services were not consulted. The impact of any of these getting loose, as it were, is clearly relevant to them. Could the Minister say a word about their involvement in the process?
Apart from those questions, I support the order.
Lord Henley
On consultation and who was brought on to the expert panel, there was a government, academic and industry expert panel comprising representatives of the Health and Safety Executive, the Health Protection Agency, the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the National Counter Terrorism Security Office, the Security Service and the Department of Health. I can give that assurance to both noble Lords. I imagine that it would also have included representatives from the devolved Departments of Health, as well as the National Institute for Biological Standards and Control, the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry, Imperial College, the Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure and, last but not least, the Home Office. That expert panel considered which pathogens handled in UK facilities could have potential to cause very serious harm if used by terrorists. We then had two 12-week consultation exercises, and the consultation document was made publicly available. Communications were targeted at law enforcement and bio-laboratory communities by e-mailing invitations to respond to each force and laboratory through their professional association. We had relatively few responses to that consultation—only about 20—but that is to be expected in such a specialist area.
The noble Lord’s second point related to cuts in the budget. I repeat that it is very difficult in the Home Office and all other departments having to cope with reductions in expenditure. However, we all accept that we can still do the job and do it properly, and I can assure the noble Lord that I still believe that that is possible.
Lastly, the noble Lord raised the point about PCCs. It was a nice try, but they will not be able to inhibit or damage any of the work under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act. The obligations are set out clearly in Part 7, and the police have a duty to explore those obligations. I do not believe that that is a matter on which we will see interference from PCCs.
I hope that that deals with the questions from my noble friend and the noble Lord. I beg to move.
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2012
Lord Henley Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2012
Relevant Document: 43rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, I apologise for my near lateness but I am here on time. I beg to move that the Committee considers the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2012, which was laid before Parliament on 28 February. I will have problems with some of the pronunciations but this order will bring 2-DPMP and its related compounds—phenazepam and any ester or ether of pipradrol—under the control of the 1971 Act, based on the recommendations put forward by our independent experts, the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, following its assessment of all available evidence.
The drugs subject to the order are so-called legal highs or new psychoactive substances which imitate the effects of and are chemically related to existing illegal drugs. I make three points. First, the ACMD likens the harms of 2-DPMP and its related compounds to controlled class B drugs which include amphetamines. We accept the ACMD’s assessment of evidence that 2-DPMP and its related compounds, as defined by the generic definition which the ACMD has provided, are sufficiently harmful to warrant class B control under the 1971 Act. Secondly, the order makes a technical amendment to include any ester or ether of pipradrol not captured by the generic definition as class C drugs alongside the main drug pipradrol to which they are chemically related. This ensures that we are consistent with current definitions used in the 1971 Act. Thirdly, the order adds phenazepam, via its full chemical name, to the list of—I now have a very difficult one—benzodiazepines which are controlled class C drugs under the 1971 Act.
The ACMD’s advice highlights evidence that websites selling so-called legal highs have exploited the current position that phenazepam is not one of the benzodiazepines covered by the 1971 Act, while the harms indicate that it is one of the more potent benzodiazepines. This order, if it is made, will enable law enforcement agencies to take full steps to curtail the availability and misuse of these harmful psychoactive substances.
There will be two negative instruments to complement this order. A designation order will be made to designate 2-DPMP and its related compounds under the generic definition, as they have no recognised medicinal or legitimate use. The designation order will amend the Misuse of Drugs (Designation) Order 2001. Regulations will also be made to amend the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001. It will include designated 2-DPMP and its related compounds in Schedule 1 to those regulations while phenazepam and esters or ethers of pipradrol will be placed with Schedule 3 drugs under the 2001 regulations to reflect their medical properties. These negative instruments will be prepared to come into force at the same time as the order. We will publicise these legislative changes through a Home Office circular addressed to all United Kingdom police forces and our criminal justice partners. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his explanation of the instruments and the other negative instruments that are to be seen in the context of this instrument. I congratulate him on his pronunciation— I do not intend to follow him down that route. As the noble Lord said, the Merits Committee has also advised us that the draft instrument supersedes a draft of the same title because of new advice from the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the advisory committee, which will obviously be taken very seriously by the Grand Committee.
I noted in paragraph 8.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum that the consultation process involved consulting the MHRA, which I had the pleasure to establish, and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Were other organisations consulted in that exercise? The explanatory note also refers to guidance to be issued, and I noticed that it makes reference to communicating with young people. Can the noble Lord say a little more about how it is intended to do that? Finally, paragraph 12.1 refers to the fact that the policy is to be monitored and reviewed as part of the drugs strategy. Can he say anything about how the monitoring and review will take place? Other than that, I have great pleasure in supporting the order.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, reading about these substances makes me grateful that I was young in the comparatively harmless 1960s.
The orders are difficult for the non-scientist, not just in pronunciation. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I am grateful to the advisory committee. I do not know whether Parliament has ever rejected one of these orders. The noble Lord referred to paragraph 8.1 in the Explanatory Memorandum. The point I took from that was the comment that these substances have not been identified as having any legitimate medical or chemical use beyond potential research use. If legitimate researchers wish to use them for research, is there a route for that to happen? In other words, can research still take place?
I have no doubt that we will consider further orders which, to those of us who are not scientists, will look much the same but which, to the scientists, will be about different substances. I doubt that it is ever possible to be fully upstream and ahead of the manufacturers, particularly in the Far East, but I, too, support the order.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I shall briefly deal with some of the questions raised and comments made by noble Lords. First, I apologise for not paying tribute to the work of the ACMD. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for doing so. We are very grateful for all the work that the committee puts in. The 25 or so members are all giving a considerable amount of their time free. What they do is very useful and we are grateful for it.
On the question of consultation raised by the noble Lord, as he will understand, we have consulted widely. The ACMD was involved. The noble Lord then mentioned the MHRA, which he was responsible for setting up, and BIS. Obviously, we will discuss these matters with other partners as and where appropriate. I am grateful that he emphasised the importance of doing that.
The noble Lord also discussed how we get the message over to young people. I just mention the Government's own advisory service for young people through FRANK, which he will be aware of, the website that provides information to them about exactly what are the dangers of certain drugs. That is all done in a manner not to appeal to the noble Lord or me but to be understandable to our children and others. As he also knows, FRANK was updated last year to improve the service available.
My noble friend Lady Hamwee mentioned the fact that she was somewhat younger in the 1960s. We were all younger in the 1960s. What was that remark—“If you can remember the 1960s, you probably weren’t there”? I leave that and make no further comment; it is probably something that we do not want to discuss.
I understand what the noble Baroness said regarding what we ought to be doing about research, and I give her an assurance that we will be facilitating research as far as possible through the licensing regime. I hope that that deals with the points that have been made.
Lord Cobbold
The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, who I am surprised is not here today, is leading a group in this House to undertake a review of drug policy in general. If this measure is adopted as policy for this House, will it be possible to look at it again later on?
Lord Henley
I have recently spoken to the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, who chairs the All-Party Group on Drugs Misuse. That group’s work is effective and important, and I want to continue to work with the noble Baroness. We are looking at whether, between myself as chair of the cross-ministerial group on drugs and her as chair of the All-Party Group, we can have further discussions. We are very grateful for all the work that she and her group put in on these problems, which sometimes seem more difficult than it is possible to be. I will certainly continue to have discussions with the noble Baroness on this matter.
Police: Vehicles
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Lord Hoyle
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent discussions they have had with police authorities about the cars they purchase.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, Ministers frequently meet police authorities. In 2011 the Government made regulations that require police vehicles to be provided through a specified national framework agreement. Decisions about what to buy from that framework are for chief constables and their police authorities.
Lord Hoyle
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but does he agree with me that as all the police authorities in the north-west and many throughout the country are changing from buying Vauxhall vehicles to buying Hyundai, that is a kick in the teeth for Vauxhall workers who are trying to keep the efficient car plant in Ellesmere Port open? Could he give an indication that any Korean police authorities are thinking of buying British-built vehicles?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I do not speak for the Korean Government and cannot speak for the police authorities in Korea, so I do not know what police cars they are buying. I am aware of the noble Lord’s concern about matters in relation to his own police area, and I understand that it is buying Hyundai. But I can give an assurance that, if he looks at the figures, he will find that Vauxhall is still the largest supplier of lower and intermediate-performance police cars, which are manufactured in his own area of Ellesmere Port. The important point is that police authorities and chief constables should be able to buy the cars that they believe are suitable for their needs, and deal within the framework in doing so.
Lord Low of Dalston
I do not much mind what kind of cars the police use, but could the Minister use his influence with the police to persuade them to moderate their use of sirens, which are such a widespread source of noise pollution in our cities? The siren is for use in a real emergency, and not just when the officer is in a hurry to get home for his tea.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am aware of this complaint from a number of noble Lords who have put it to me on a number of occasions. I understand that there might be one or two occasions when police cars are using sirens in an inappropriate way. Again, that should be a matter for the police authorities, but I hope that they will bear in mind what the noble Lord has to say.
Lord Jones of Birmingham
I draw noble Lords’ attention to my declared interests. Would the Minister agree with me that it is becoming increasingly difficult for the businesses of this nation to believe that Her Majesty's Government want business to employ more people and pay more tax when they buy their ships from South Korea, their police vehicles from Korea, their trains from Germany and their cars from Japan? Further, would he agree that the EU procurement rules talk about best value and not best price, and that the Government increasingly show that they know the price of everything and the value of nothing?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I would not want to go down the line that the noble Lord is suggesting, which smacks, dare I say it, of protectionism. I want the police authorities and chief constables to buy the cars that they feel are best for their needs. That is why I am particularly grateful, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, that Vauxhall is the largest supplier of one category of cars, which are being built in Ellesmere Port, very close to where he comes from.
Baroness Trumpington
May I ask what the police do with their cars when they have finished with them? Do they send them to auction? A few years ago my husband bought the ex-chief constable of Cambridgeshire’s car and we drove happily at all kinds of reckless speeds because everybody thought it was the chief constable’s car.
Lord Henley
I am very grateful that I was not driven in that car by my noble friend or her late husband. Police cars do not last that long because they have a fairly heavy life. The police sell them at the end of their lives and try to get the best possible value for them.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, when I was a Minister in the Home Office I was shocked at how little co-ordination there was across police forces in terms of procurement, and I tried to change that. Can the Minister reassure us that, notwithstanding some differentials between police forces, they are quite minimal and there would be a huge gain to the public purse if we could co-ordinate procurement?
Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lord refers to his time in government. I was trying to make clear in my original Answer that there have been considerable changes since then. That is why we have brought in the framework, which brings in co-ordination of a great deal of procurement across all police forces that we believe will save something of the order of £350 million a year. This is money that we need to save.
Baroness Doocey
My Lords, do the Government agree that there is no justification for the Metropolitan Police keeping 32 luxury cars not for security purposes but to chauffeur senior officers to and from their homes?
Lord Henley
My Lords, obviously I cannot comment on decisions made by the Metropolitan Police Authority —that is a matter for the mayor’s office. If it is spending money inadvisably, I hope that it would look carefully at the circumstances in which it could possibly save money in the future.
Baroness Worthington
Would the Minister comment on the appropriateness of the list of activities in the leaked tender document by the West Midlands and Surrey police forces? Alongside the management of the vehicle fleet, these included a whole host of activities that ran to almost everything apart from the powers of arrest.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not sure that that is directly relevant to the Question. We are talking about the purchase of vehicles. I want to make it clear that that is a matter for the chief constables and we want them to buy the appropriate cars for the job that has to be done.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, prompted by the very pertinent question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, can I ask the Minister if, when these police cars are no longer considered roadworthy, they are put out to grass and placed at the disposal of the Prime Minister and his friends?
Lord Henley
My Lords, as I made clear in my earlier answer, they are sold for the best possible price.
Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, can I ask my noble friend to make sure that the opinions in response to this Question do not make noble Lords go away with a feeling that the British motor industry is in a bad state? It is in the best state it has been in for about 15 years and we should talk up our industry rather than the reverse.
Lord Henley
I am very grateful to my noble friend for her comments. I remind her about the announcement made about Nissan and the extra jobs that will be available there as a result of decisions that Nissan has made about further inward investment in this country.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
On the day when it has been announced that 2.7 million people in this country are unemployed, and the likelihood is that that figure will continue to rise for some time, is it not important that we take such factors into account when we address issues such as public procurement? Can one conceivably believe that the French, German or Belgian Governments would do some of the things that we do in this country?
Lord Henley
Yet again, the noble Lord is heading down the road of protectionism, which I do not believe is the right answer. The answer that I gave to my noble friend Lady O’Cathain about the success of Nissan addresses that point exactly. Why have we attracted so much inward investment? It is because we have the right conditions to do so. The Nissan announcement is one that even the noble Lord should welcome.
Viscount Simon
Is the noble Lord aware that ACPO is reviewing the use of police vehicles with a view to standardisation, which will result in reducing the cost of those vehicles?
Lord Henley
My Lords, again, I answered that point earlier when I dealt with the co-ordination that we have brought to this matter through the national framework. That is why we are looking to make savings of the order of £350 million a year, compared to what used to happen under the previous Government on proper co-ordination of all police procurement.