Supermarkets And Public Land (Scotland)

David Mundell Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), my neighbouring MP in south Lanarkshire, on securing debating time tonight. Adjournment debates are an important opportunity for Members to put matters of concern on the record, and the hon. Gentleman has been able to do that.

The issues that have been set out have already been the subject of a great deal of investigation by the relevant authorities. I am conscious that a number of the issues raised are still under consideration by both the procurator fiscal and the civil courts, and therefore it would not be appropriate for me to comment on those. The issues raised also relate closely to the decision-making process for planning applications in Scotland and to economic development policy in Scotland. It is important to recognise that these matters in Scotland are devolved and are properly for the relevant local authorities, the Scottish Government and their agencies. I can therefore offer no comment on the merits or otherwise of the applications in question.

With regard to the responsibilities and accountability of civil servants, I understand the hon. Gentleman’s frustration. However, there are proper processes in place. The civil service code, first published in 1996, sets out the core civil service values and the standards of behaviour expected of civil servants in upholding these values. A Scottish Executive version of the civil service code was first published in 2006.

On 11 November 2010, the civil service provisions of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 came into force, placing the civil service values on a statutory footing. Under the terms of the 2010 Act, a revised civil service code was laid before the UK Parliament on 11 November 2010 and is available on the Cabinet Office website, and a revised separate code of conduct governing civil servants who serve the Scottish Executive was laid before the UK Parliament and Scottish Parliament on 11 November 2010.

As the hon. Gentleman said, he pursued the matter also with the then head of the civil service, who fully investigated the matter.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. Having worked in the property industry, I know that Mr Gallagher has something of a reputation for being what in Moffat would be called a wide boy. Is the Minister satisfied that the code covers the culture of behaviour, as well as the actions?

[David Mundell]

I am satisfied that the terms of the code are appropriate and are appropriately administered. As the hon. Gentleman knows, complaints regarding the Scottish Government and their agencies which have gone through those organisations’ own formal complaints procedure can also be raised with the Scottish public services ombudsman. It is for the public services ombudsman to deal with these matters, and it is right that the appropriate avenues are used. The Scotland Office does not have any locus in such matters and it would not be appropriate for us to take on any investigatory role in relation to these matters.

[Mr McCann]

Having served for a considerable time in my career as a full-time trade union official in the civil service, and having represented people who work in Scottish Enterprise, I know how the procedures operate. In the situation that I described, I made a formal complaint to the head of the civil service that someone, as I set out in my opening address, committed a serious disciplinary offence. No action was taken whatsoever, and he was allowed to leave the service with a handsome package paid for by the taxpayer. Those questions have never been answered. Therefore the question that I must put to the Minister is how am I to pursue such questions to a logical conclusion when all I got from the civil service was a brick wall constructed in front of me and my questions not being answered?

[David Mundell]

As I set out in my opening remarks, the hon. Gentleman has had the opportunity this evening to place all his concerns on the record. I undertake to ensure that a transcript of tonight’s proceedings is conveyed to all the relevant parties that have been discussed, including Scottish Enterprise, the Scottish Government, Sir Peter Housden, the Information Commissioner, and the current head of the civil service, Sir Bob Kerslake, so that everyone who has an interest in the matter can read the points that the hon. Gentleman has raised. However, the Scotland Office is unable to take forward further investigations. Indeed, it would be inappropriate to do so while a criminal investigation and civil court proceedings are taking place. As I have said, he has used the important opportunity of an Adjournment debate to place his concerns on the record.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

3. What steps he is taking to ensure that the findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s inquiry into human trafficking in Scotland are discussed by the relevant officials in England and Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The Government are considering the findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s inquiry into human trafficking in Scotland, in line with the ongoing implementation of the human trafficking strategy we launched in July 2011.

[Michael Connarty]

If the Minister had read the inquiry report, he would have seen that its main recommendation is that there should be a new human trafficking Bill for Scotland. I suggest to him that that would solve the problem of implementing the EU human trafficking directive, which we have signed up to, across the UK. I invite him and other interested parties to attend the all-party group on human trafficking next Monday in Room 7 to hear the inquiry being reported on in the House and perhaps take some advice.

[David Mundell]

If I am available, I will certainly be delighted to attend.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the field of human trafficking, where co-ordination between involved agencies is critical if we are to find real solutions, is yet another practical example of a policy area that is best tackled at UK level?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that the UK can bring great weight to this issue on behalf of Scotland. It is also an issue where we have been able to work with the Scottish Government, demonstrating that the two Governments can work together on matters of great importance on a day-to-day basis.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

4. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a credit rating for Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Mr Speaker, you will be aware that the Chairman of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), who is a regular attendee at Scotland questions, has suffered a fall. I am sure that we all wish her well in her recovery.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are in contact with Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions on a range of issues concerning welfare reform.

[Mark Menzies]

Is it not clear that if the nationalist Government in Scotland had control of welfare policy, there would be no benefits cap in Scotland, despite widespread public support for it?

[David Mundell]

What is clear is that the Scottish National party is making a proposition for independence without explaining to people how benefits at current levels would be paid in future, or where the money would come from.

[Mike Freer]

With the average income in Scotland being £419 a week, does the Minister not agree that a benefit cap of £500 a week is a reasonable and sensible level?

[David Mundell]

I do agree that that is a reasonable and fair measure, and constituents in constituencies such as mine cannot understand how the Labour party and the nationalists can promote the idea that the benefit cap should be higher than £35,000.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Is not the truth about the benefit cap, however, that if such a household on £419 a week, as cited by the previous questioner, had six children—like some of my constituents do—who had to be cared for, they would also receive child benefit, and that therefore the comparison that has been made is not fair? What is going to happen when the discretionary housing payments to a council—that is the only answer from the Government—run out?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady should listen to her hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), when she says that if Labour is to be taken seriously on any issue it has to

“pass the test of fiscal credibility.”

On this issue, that is a very relevant point.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman will not be aware that I have the highest percentage of single women in any constituency in the country. What is he doing to help those women—[Interruption.] This is not a joke. This is a serious point, and Government Members can laugh all they like, but there are single women in this country who are struggling. What is his party going to do to help them?

[David Mundell]

What this Government are doing is tidying up the mess that the hon. Gentleman’s Government left, which has placed single women and many other people in a perilous financial position.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

7. How many disabled children receive the severe disability premium in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

As at 3 April 2011 in Scotland, there were 4,800 in-work families benefiting from the severely disabled child element and with child tax credit above the family limit. There are 5,000 severely disabled children in these families.

[Pamela Nash]

I thank the Minister for that answer. The Prime Minister told this House on 14 December and again on 23 January that his Government will not be cutting benefits for disabled children. Given that almost 8,000 children in Scotland will lose £1,400 a year through the child tax credit changes, does the Minister agree that the Prime Minister was plain wrong and clearly does not understand his own policy?

[David Mundell]

What I agree with is the fact that the Government are not making any savings at all from these changes. Savings from abolishing the adult disability premiums and changes to the child rate will not return to the Exchequer; those savings will be recycled into higher payments for more severely disabled people. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I know that the House will want to hear Mrs Eleanor Laing.

[Mr Speaker]

The Minister should answer with reference to the disability premium.

[David Mundell]

The severe disability premium and all other benefits are clearly set out by the United Kingdom Government. The Scottish National party has failed to set out how a single benefit in Scotland would be paid for post independence, if it were ever achieved.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

9. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Defence on the future of DM Beith.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I spoke to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), last week on this issue. As he confirmed on Monday, there are no current plans to change the status of DM Beith. There is a need to maintain Beith until the Spearfish torpedo has been converted to a single-fuel system, when the need for specialist facilities may lapse. The conversion programme is expected to be completed around 2018.

[Katy Clark]

Defence Munitions Beith is one of the largest employers in North Ayrshire and is wholly dependent on Ministry of Defence contracts. Will the Minister ensure that there is a ministerial visit to the facility from the Scotland Office to find out what more can be done with a view to ongoing representations for future contracts with the Ministry of Defence?

[David Mundell]

I am pleased to be able to confirm to the hon. Lady that the Secretary of State for Scotland will be pleased to visit that facility in her constituency.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

11. What assessment his Department has made of the financial effect on Scotland of independence.

Female Employment (Scotland)

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to serve under the chairmanship of a constituent. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) on securing this debate about female employment trends in Scotland. It is one of a number of debates relating specifically to Scotland that have been held recently in both Westminster Hall and the main Chamber, and such debates are welcome. Following on from some of the hon. Lady’s remarks, I congratulate Johann Lamont on becoming the leader of the Scottish Labour party, which relates to the hon. Lady’s arguments. Moreover, at the end of last year, my colleague Ruth Davidson became the leader of the Scottish Conservative party, so the political process in Scotland has some female leadership. I am sure that both ladies will bring significant influence to bear in the months ahead.

The fight against unemployment is a priority for the UK Government. We are committed to getting Scots off benefits and into the workplace. Work remains the best and most sustainable route out of poverty. The UK Government have measures in place to support all claimants to find work. These measures are not gender specific. We want women and men to get the job opportunities that they need.

Nevertheless, this challenge must be set against the context of the UK recovering from the biggest financial crisis for generations and the deepest recession of almost all major economies. The uncertainty and instability in the eurozone area, where unemployment is higher than in the UK, continue to have a chilling effect on our economy.

Despite the difficult environment, we are still trying to help women. Many of the 90,000 Scots who have been lifted out of tax at the lowest end are women. The measures that we are taking on additional child care are helping women south of the border, with Barnett consequentials for Scotland. At the same time, our reforms of public service sector pensions will mean that lower-paid public sector employees, including many women, will get better pensions. On top of this, the UK Government have announced new support for women’s enterprise, with funding to provide 5,000 mentors for new and existing female entrepreneurs. Similarly, the establishment of the Women’s Business Council is geared towards helping the Government to maximise women’s contribution to future UK economic growth.

I recognise that there are concerns that women are being disproportionately affected by unemployment. Fears have been raised because of the predominance of women in the retail sector, in local government employment, in the NHS and in part-time work. However, as John Philpott, the chief economic adviser at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development said last month, it has been tough for both sexes in the 2011 jobs market. He commented:

“What we do know is that the relative position of women has not so far worsened as much as commonly perceived or as widely anticipated given the high concentration of women workers in the public sector and in part-time jobs more generally.”

Labour market analysis published last month by the Scottish Government shows the trend in Scotland over the past year is for women moving out of unemployment and inactivity into employment. As the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), said today,

“The latest figures reflect the current challenging economic climate but also show more women entering the workforce.”

That was backed up by the Prime Minister, who told the House earlier this afternoon that 59,000 more women are now in the workplace than at the time of the 2010 general election.

[Ann McKechin]

Female unemployment in Scotland has increased by 25% in the last quarter, so would the right hon. Gentleman not acknowledge, given the statistics that he has just quoted, that there needs to be a much more thorough analysis, so that we can get to the root of the reason why there has been such a rapid increase, whether that is likely to be a permanent shift in the job market and what sectors will be particularly affected?

[David Mundell]

I agree with the hon. Lady that analysis is important to getting to a full understanding of what the situation is. I assure her that the Government are not complacent in that regard.

The Government also have an ambitious agenda to reform the benefit system and to support those who are able to go back into work. The increase in female jobseeker’s allowance claimants in Scotland can be partially attributed to the change in the rules for lone parents. Most lone parents with a youngest child aged seven or over are no longer entitled to income support purely on the grounds of being a lone parent. They must now claim jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance or find work. There are plans to apply that rule to lone parents with a youngest child aged five or over from this year. Our policies for lone parents strike a balance between the right to benefit to support the family and wider responsibilities to support themselves and lift their children out of poverty when that is feasible.

We also understand the importance of flexible working. It is the Government’s intention that the law will better support families juggling work and life, and the businesses that employ them. We are currently developing our proposals for extending flexible working legislation and will be consulting with stakeholders on how best to implement them.

[Ann McKechin]

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the fact that more lone parents are coming into the job market because of changes to regulations. Will he tell us what dialogue he has had with the Scottish Government about the fact that, in Scotland, child care costs are so high? Proper, affordable child care is absolutely vital if people, particularly those on lower incomes, are to get back into employment.

[David Mundell]

The Secretary of State and I have had ongoing discussions with the Scottish Government on employment and wider economic issues and on how we can dovetail our policies to ensure that they work in the best way for people in Scotland. The hon. Lady clearly highlights a significant issue, which I will take up again with the Scottish Government the next time I have the opportunity to do so. I appreciate the importance of the issue that she is raising.

The UK Government recognise the issue of child care and are implementing measures geared to helping more women into work. The hon. Lady will be aware that, following the autumn statement, the Scottish Government will receive more than £500 million in addition to the sums that they had anticipated they would receive. In relation to that funding, the Scottish Government will have the opportunity to invest more in child care and skills development.

Looking forward, the integration of child care into universal credit when it is introduced in 2013 will protect work initiatives and ensure that support is focused on low-earning families. As I have said, we know how important child care is in helping mothers into work. Child care costs will be supported through an additional element in the universal credit. Support for the costs of child care within the universal credit will be made available to all lone parents and couples, where both members are at work, regardless of the number of hours they work. On average, families with children are more likely to have a higher than a lower entitlement under the universal credit.

More broadly, the Department for Work and Pensions is taking a number of measures to assist all claimants into work. The advisory support in job centres across Scotland is tailored and personalised to the individual’s needs. Claimants of both genders have access to a range of “Get Britain Working” initiatives, including work clubs, enterprise clubs, the work together scheme, work experience, new enterprise allowance and sector-based work academies. Similarly, work trials allow employers and employees the chance to try out employment opportunities.

The Work programme is a key part of our reforms and, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North knows, it went live in June. We are also helping to break down the barriers to employment through the flexible support fund, which can assist with child care expenses, travel costs and clothing costs. It also targets support to particular groups of claimants. The DWP is looking at bids for grant funding from bodies that specifically support lone parents and women with special needs, such as mental health issues.

Across Scotland, there is huge concern about youth unemployment and, obviously, a significant number of the people affected by that are female. Youth unemployment has been rising since 2004.

[Dr Whiteford]

Does the Minister agree that the Scottish Government’s commitment to ensuring that every young person in Scotland between the age of 16 and 19 has an apprenticeship, college or university place or training opportunity is a good thing and that it is the right direction to be moving in to tackle youth unemployment?

[David Mundell]

I can certainly assure the hon. Lady that I accept that many things the Scottish Government do are good. What I do not accept is the often presented premise that, if the Scottish Government do something, it is a good thing, and if the UK Government do something, it is a bad thing. We need to work together, particularly on issues such as youth unemployment.

As I said, youth unemployment has been rising since 2004 and is an issue on which we all need to take an interest. That is why I am particularly pleased that John Swinney is going to join the Secretary of State and me at a national convention to consider the issue of youth unemployment, with all other relevant stakeholders from throughout Scotland. In terms of identifying issues and concerns, we have undertaken a number of very successful events in Irvine, Hawick and Falkirk to date, and a national event will take place in Dundee in March.

We have also announced the youth contract, which will bring an extra £1 billion of extra investment into supporting the young unemployed, whether through wage incentives, additional work experience and opportunities or money to the Scottish Government. There will also be the offer of a work experience place for every 18 to 24-year-old who wants one before they enter the Work programme.

The UK Government cannot solve the employment challenges facing Scotland alone. The Scottish Government have many policy levers, with important responsibilities for education, skills, business tax and enterprise, which can be used to improve the employment situation. Scotland’s two Governments must work together to achieve this.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

2. What assessment he has made of the effect of the autumn statement on child tax credit payments in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The welfare system must remain fair and affordable, while protecting the most vulnerable. Most working-age benefits, benefits for disabled people and the basic state pension will increase by 5.2% in April. In order to remain on course with the debt consolidation plan and meet their fiscal mandate, the Government will increase the child element of child tax credit by the rate of inflation.

[John Robertson]

According to the House of Commons Library, the Government’s decision not to proceed with the £110 increase in the child element of child tax credit will take £41 million away from nearly 400,000 children in Scotland alone. Worst hit in Scotland will be Glasgow city, where 44,000 children are set to miss out on £4.8 million. When will the Secretary of State stand up for the children of Scotland?

[David Mundell]

The Government are standing up for the children of Scotland. That is why our priority is sorting out the mess that the Labour Government made of our economy. The hon. Gentleman would do well to heed the words of the former Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy):

“The truth is the Labour party would have to make cuts if we were in power.”

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

We all accept that these are difficult economic times, but does the Minister agree that one of the most effective ways of helping the lowest-paid families is raising the income tax threshold to £10,000 and beyond?

[David Mundell]

I entirely agree. The measure has had a significant impact in Scotland, and more than 2 million basic-rate taxpayers will benefit from it during the current Parliament.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

After another week that has been dominated by political debate and headlines relating to Scotland’s constitution, we must not ignore a report by End Child Poverty showing that 50% of local authority areas in Scotland contain wards in which 30% of children are living in poverty, and that in some wards in my constituency the figure is 50%. What action is the Secretary of State taking, along with the Scottish Government, to ensure that every child in Scotland is given the best start and opportunities in life?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman raises important issues, such as the fact that many of the levers relating to child poverty rest with the Scottish Government. As a result of the autumn statement, the Scottish Government received more than £500 million in additional revenue. I should have thought it would be better if they focused on how to deploy that revenue to deal with such problems as child poverty than to obsess about the constitution.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

3. What steps he is taking to promote Scotland as a destination for international inward investment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I firmly believe that Scotland is the ideal destination for international inward investment, and we have taken a range of actions to promote such investment. My right hon. Friend recently led the largest ever Scottish trade delegation to Brazil to promote closer business links with a key emerging market for the Scottish economy.

[Alun Cairns]

Does my hon. Friend accept that, in an ever more competitive world, uncertainty about independence has not helped the cause of Scotland or any other part of the United Kingdom that is seeking to attract much-needed inward investment?

[David Mundell]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, which is why I believe it is better that a referendum on Scottish independence be held sooner rather than later.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

In contrast to the previous intervention, will the Minister acknowledge that international companies investing in Scotland since the re-election of the Scottish National party Scottish Government include INEOS, PetroChina, Dell, Gamesa, Amazon, Hewlett Packard and Mitsubishi Power Systems? Does he acknowledge that and welcome the investment?

[David Mundell]

I acknowledge that those companies have invested in spite of the uncertainty. We should consider the level of investment that Scotland could achieve if there was not that uncertainty.

[Angus Robertson]

That is the usual mantra that we hear from Government Members. Will the Minister respond to Scotland’s leading entrepreneur, Jim McColl, who said on this very subject that business is “not concerned” about the

“independence referendum…What many of us in business are convinced about is that a productive and prosperous future for this country depends on securing real economic powers for the Parliament through constitutional change”?

Will the UK Government drop their foolish conditions, so that we can secure that change in the autumn of 2014?

[David Mundell]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that Mr McColl is entitled to his opinion, as is any other citizen of Scotland. I am sure you will encourage them, as your own party’s Scottish Government already have, to contribute to our consultation on the independence referendum.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend believe that were Scotland to become separate from the United Kingdom, and were it to be forced to join the eurozone as a condition of re-entry into the European Union, that would hinder or help inward investment into Scotland?

[David Mundell]

Uncertainty over Scotland’s position in the EU, and uncertainty over which currency Scotland would use if it were ever to become independent, would certainly hinder inward investment into Scotland.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

4. How many young people are not in employment, training or education in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

5. What assessment he has made of the effect of the autumn statement on levels of poverty in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The Government took action at the autumn statement to build a stronger and more balanced economy. As a result, more than £500 million has been added to the existing Scottish budget by the UK Government, which provides the Scottish Government with additional resources in these uncertain times.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he agree that one of the most important ways of tackling poverty is ensuring full employment? Does he therefore share my concern that Mahle Engine Systems in my constituency seems set to remove jobs from an area hit by high unemployment, taking those jobs out of Scotland and out of the UK?

[David Mundell]

I would be very disappointed if that were the case. I know that the hon. Lady is a doughty campaigner for employment in her constituency. We must continue to stress the benefits of employers remaining in Scotland, which is why the current constitutional uncertainty is so damaging.

[Mr Jim Hood (Lanark and Hamilton East) (Lab)]

On Monday, when 700 of my constituents employed by WJ Harte Construction returned to work, they were told that the company had gone into administration, without any consultation whatsoever. I am told that Scottish Enterprise and the trade unions were not even aware of this. The MSP was not aware of it, and the MP certainly was not. The company was taken over by a venture capitalist more than two years ago, when it had a turnover of £100 million. It has now been run into the ground and the executives have run away with the money. Will the Minister meet me to discuss what we can do to save as many of these 700 jobs as possible? This is a disgraceful situation.

[David Mundell]

Obviously, as a fellow south Lanarkshire MP I am very disappointed to hear what the hon. Gentleman has to relate, and I should be very pleased to meet him to ensure that employment continues to be secured in south Lanarkshire.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

6. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the work capability assessment in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are in regular contact with Ministers from the Department for Work and Pensions on a range of issues concerning welfare reform. We also recently met Professor Malcolm Harrington to discuss his second review of the work capability assessment.

[Tom Greatrex]

I thank the Minister for that answer. I am sure he will be aware of a report published today by Citizens Advice entitled “Right First Time?”, which examines the high level of incorrect and inaccurate decisions made in the work capability assessment. Given the amount of money that Atos Healthcare receives from the public purse for undertaking these assessments, is it not now time for the Government to consider the report’s recommendation that financial penalties be imposed on Atos for a number of those incorrect assessments? [Interruption.]

[David Mundell]

This was one of the issues that the Secretary of State and I discussed with Professor Harrington, and as he prepares his further report, this is inevitably one of the issues he will address. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I would like to hear Dame Anne Begg.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Now that the move from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance is well under way, anecdotally, it would appear that Atos is finding it very difficult to carry out the necessary work capability assessments, so there could be extra delays. Will the Minister please engage with his fellow Ministers in the DWP to make sure that Atos can deliver on the contract?

[David Mundell]

I can certainly assure the hon. Lady that I will pass on her concerns to the Department.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

12. What comparative assessment he has made of the level of subsidy from the public purse for postal, transport and health services in Scotland and the north of England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Health and large aspects of transport are devolved areas, and it is for the Parliament in Scotland to decide how to allocate its budget. The Government have provided an annual subsidy to Post Office Ltd of £150 million for the last financial year and £180 million for this financial year. The subsidy is not distributed by country or region.

[John Mann]

Does the Minister think it would help the forthcoming debate if all the figures were made public so that my constituents and others can fully participate?

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree that the debate on the independence of Scotland should be based on facts and on the issues. That is why we need to move on from the process and get on with the referendum.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

The question of the referendum on Scotland is not a matter just for the Scottish Government or for the Scottish people. How and when will my constituents in England be consulted on this important matter?

[David Mundell]

My hon. Friend’s constituents have the opportunity to be represented on these issues through him in this House.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Public Sector Pensions

David Mundell Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I beg to move,

That this House recognises and appreciates the valuable work done by public sector workers; believes that they should receive pensions which are affordable, sustainable and fair; further believes that the changes announced since June 2010 by the Government are primarily for the purposes of deficit reduction rather than a move to secure the long-term sustainability of public sector pensions; notes that these changes are unfair on public sector workers who will have to work longer, pay more and receive less in their pension when they retire; further notes the findings of the National Audit Office that the 2007-08 pensions re-negotiation changes will generate estimated savings of 14 per cent. by 2059-60 and the conclusions of the House of Commons Committee of Public Accounts’ Thirty-eighth Report of this Session on the Impact of the 2007-08 changes to public sector pensions (HC 833), that the cost of public service pensions has reduced substantially because of these changes; agrees with criticism in both reports of the failure to develop a long-term strategy for the role of pensions in recruitment and retention to the public sector; condemns the Government’s threat to cut devolved administrations’ budgets if they do not implement the Government’s immediate levy on pensions contributions; and calls on the Government to reverse its unfair changes to public sector pensions.

The motion stands in the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends from the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru, and of Members from the Labour party and, I understand, from the Social Democratic and Labour party.

Last week, a day of action saw more than 2 million people across the UK join in protests against changes that will make those affected—mainly women—work longer, pay more and receive less when they retire. This year alone, bankers walked away with £7 billion in bonuses. As one constituent said to me last week:

“This is just a way of getting extra cash from public workers. And it is just not fair.”

We are proud to hold this debate on behalf of all those people across the UK who are directly or indirectly affected by the Government’s changes, and we note that despite having 36 Opposition day debates since the changes were announced in June 2010, the official Opposition have not seen fit to devote even one of those opportunities to debate the public sector pensions proposals. Whatever the evasions, the nods and the winks, and the ducking and diving of others, we are glad of the opportunity to show clearly where we stand.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

This is characterised as a joint debate between Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National party, yet last week we saw SNP Members of the Scottish Parliament cross the picket lines to ensure that the Scottish Parliament functioned, while Plaid Cymru Members of the Welsh Assembly refused to cross picket lines and the Welsh Assembly did not function. Where is the coherent position in that?

[Hywel Williams]

It has clearly escaped the right hon. Gentleman’s attention that the SNP are in government in Scotland, while in Wales—alas—we are not.

[David Mundell]

I am afraid that I do not find that a tenable explanation. All SNP Members of the Scottish Parliament are not in the Government, although they may act like it. Those people crossed the picket lines and spoke in a debate on this very subject.

[Hywel Williams]

Honestly, I think we need to move on to the subject of the debate. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will have time later to make those and other fatuous points.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

My hon. Friend has anticipated a point that I was going to make, which will doubtless be made again by other nationalist party members. Anyone reading the popular press would imagine that public sector workers were driving around in this year’s model of car and enjoying two or three foreign holidays a year, but that is not, of course, the case.

We say “Let us have negotiations”, but is the 3.2% imposition itself negotiable? What the Government have announced today will merely shift the burden from one group of workers to another. They are trying to squeeze out some sort of deal, but we utterly reject that way of going about things.

[David Mundell]

I think it important for the hon. Gentleman to clarify whom he means by “we”. The Scottish National party is in government in Scotland, and a number of choices are available to it. For instance, there are funds that it could allocate to reduce pension contributions, but it has chosen not to do so.

[Hywel Williams]

Again, I do not want to go down that particular avenue—[Interruption.] I have some things to say that the Minister might like to listen to. My hon. Friends will be responding to his point later, but let me say now that the possibilities to which he alludes constitute a broad spectrum of theoretical options for consideration, and that the Scottish Government have expressed no preference. I am sure that others will say more about that later.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The weather in Scotland today is very stormy, and our thoughts are with those who are having to endure the consequences of that. I do not know whether this debate will be equally stormy.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I hope the Minister will not think just about the people enduring travel disruptions, but will realise that the majority of those who will be working hard to resolve any problems that arise will be public sector workers.

[David Mundell]

I do realise that—and that may be the only point on which I agree with the hon. Lady.

I thank the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) for opening the debate. He spoke for about 20 minutes, and in that time he at least said exactly the same about Scottish National party policy on this issue as was revealed in a two-and-a-half-hour debate in the Scottish Parliament last week, which was precisely nothing. I will return to that subject.

As the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) has already mentioned, no Member would disagree with the following sentiments in the motion:

“That this House recognises and appreciates the valuable work done by public sector workers”

and

“believes that they should receive pensions which are affordable, sustainable and fair”.

Indeed, those sentiments form the foundations of our reform of public service pensions. Our objective is to put in place new schemes that are affordable, sustainable and fair both to taxpayers and public service workers. Let us be clear: public service pension reform is needed. The costs have increased by a third in the last 10 years, to £32 billion, and the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that, without reform, spending on pensions will rise by almost £7 billion over the next five years.

Understandably, this is a contentious issue, but fairness remains the cornerstone of our approach. We believe that public service workers deserve a good pension in retirement, as a fair reward for a lifetime spent serving the public. We recognise the vital contributions made by teachers, nurses, council employees and civil servants to the well-being of our society now and in the future.

That is why in June 2010 my right hon. Friend the Chancellor commissioned Lord Hutton, a Work and Pensions Secretary in the previous Government, to take an unbiased and clear-headed look at public service pensions and make proposals for reform. His landmark report has set the parameters of the debate, and it has been rightly lauded for its depth and vision.

Lord Hutton set out an overwhelming case for reform. He said that

“the status quo is not tenable”,

that

“future costs are inherently uncertain”,

and that at present the public

“cannot be sure that schemes will remain sustainable in the future.”

In his interim report, he found that there was a clear justification, based on the past cost increases borne by the taxpayer, to increase contributions in the short term to ensure a fairer distribution of costs between taxpayers and members. We accepted that recommendation, and increases in member contributions will take place, starting next year. However, next year’s increase merely reflects the increase already planned by the previous Government. We remain committed to securing in full the overall savings of £2.3 billion in 2013-14 and £2.8 billion in 2014-15 that we announced at the 2010 spending review.

In his final report, Lord Hutton produced a blueprint for a new landscape of public service pensions. It is based on retaining defined-benefit schemes but moving to a fairer career-average basis, and increasing the retirement age in line with the state pension age to protect the taxpayer against future increases in life expectancy.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

Presumably the Minister is talking about UK public sector pension schemes, whereas the motion seems to be specifically about devolved pension schemes. Does he agree that if there is a solution, it will be that the separatists in Edinburgh just say, “We won’t apply any changes”? Does he also agree that their excuse of continually saying, “The big bad boy in London did it” and then running away is wearing thin?

[David Mundell]

On that point, I can agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Scottish Government have considerable flexibility to make their own choices, but they have chosen not to do so.

[Mr Weir]

Will the Minister confirm that the Chief Secretary specifically said that if the Scottish Government did not accept these changes, he would fine them £8 million per month, which amounts to £100 million a year and half a billion pounds over the spending period? How are the Scottish Government supposed, effectively, to pay for this twice, and thereby pay £1 billion?

[David Mundell]

What I can make clear to the House is that as a result of last week’s autumn statement the Scottish Government will receive approximately £69 million extra in resource departmental expenditure limit funds, that as a result of the Budget they received an extra £112 million, and that between the Budget and the autumn statement they received an extra £90 million, which they had not budgeted for.

[Mr Weir]

However, will the Minister please explain what difference that makes, as we are still going to lose half a billion pounds over this spending period? There is still going to be a massive cut if the Scottish Government do not follow what this Government are imposing upon them.

[David Mundell]

The difference it makes is that the SNP will have the option to back up its words with deeds, but instead it fails to do so. Its argument is entirely based on blaming the Westminster Government. It has funds available to make these choices, yet it prefers to deceive public service workers in Scotland by suggesting that everything is entirely at the behest of the Westminster Government.

[Mr Weir]

Will the Minister therefore go to the Chief Secretary and say, “Take away this threat and allow the Scottish Government to do what they want to do for Scottish public sector workers”? Is the Minister happy that there will be this cut of half a billion pounds over the spending period?

[David Mundell]

I know the hon. Gentleman does not want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom—that is his policy—but he and his Government have the ability to make this choice, as the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) set out, yet they have chosen not to do so.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

We should look at what the SNP has actually done in this respect. It has responsibility for the Scottish Public Pensions Agency, whose submissions to the Hutton review were far worse than what the coalition Government propose.

[David Mundell]

I will not presume that the hon. Lady was complimenting the Government, but she is correct in that all four of the suggestions the Scottish Government made to the Hutton inquiry would certainly leave Scottish public sector workers no better off than under the UK Government proposals, and a number of those suggestions would leave them distinctly worse off.

[Pete Wishart]

As an Under-Secretary, the Minister surely recognises the difference between a Government agency and a Government spokesperson.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

I recognise the full ambit of the First Minister’s many responsibilities and I do not believe that such a submission would have been made without consultation with the Scottish Government.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I think we are getting to the crux of some of the issues. I would never agree with what the coalition Government are doing to public sector pensions in Scotland, but the Scottish National party did put in a report to the Hutton review that was far more draconian than what the Government are proposing. The SNP may be trying to say to the House that this was done by an agency, but why did the Scottish Government not contribute a proposal to the review?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. It reinforces what all of us who are aware of day-to-day Scottish politics know, which is that the SNP Government in Scotland speak with one word but their deeds are quite different.

I return to what I was discussing before the interventions. The Government accepted Lord Hutton’s recommendations in full and can reassure the House that the reformed public—

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister has made much of Hutton’s report and fairness, but does he not agree it seems odd that the Government jumped the gun by announcing the 3% increase before Hutton’s final report? How does that demonstrate fairness?

[David Mundell]

I know that the hon. Lady was not in the House at the time, but the 3% figure is broadly equivalent to the sum that her Government had identified in the pre-Budget report in 2009.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

rose—

[David Mundell]

I will give way in a moment, but I want to make some progress.

The Government continue to engage actively with the trade unions to agree what the new pension schemes will look like. Discussions began in February and the Government remain fully committed to meaningful engagement. Scheme-level discussions are continuing with the trade unions, with meetings yesterday, today and tomorrow, which deals with a question asked by the hon. Member for Arfon. Significant progress has been achieved and the trade unions have welcomed many of the commitments that we made at the start of this process, including the one that public sector schemes will remain defined-benefit schemes, with a guaranteed amount provided in retirement. That, of course, was one of the options not put forward by the Scottish Public Pensions Agency.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[David Mundell]

I am going to take an intervention from the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) once I have completed this section of my speech.

The unions also welcomed the commitment that all accrued rights will be protected. Everything that public servants have earned until the point of change they will keep, and it will be paid out in the terms expected, at the retirement age expected. Final salary means just that: that someone’s accrued rights will be based on their final salary, not at the point of change but whenever their career ends or they choose to leave the scheme. No public service worker need worry about the entitlements they have already built up.

[Sandra Osborne]

The Minister talks about public sector reform, so why is the 3% rise going straight to the Treasury? That has nothing to do with the sustainability of public sector pensions.

[David Mundell]

As the hon. Lady knows, the Treasury underwrites the scheme. The Treasury requires to be paid out whatever is required to be paid out in relation to the scheme. The scheme does not operate on a basis of contributions and pay-outs, because the Treasury is underwriting the scheme so that everybody is paid in full as is their entitlement.

[Mr Donohoe]

rose—

[Hywel Williams]

rose—

[David Mundell]

May I just make a little progress and then give way again? I think I have been generous with my time.

Our reforms are not retrospective, nor do they seek to correct the past failure of the Labour party; they are driven by the need for fair, affordable and sustainable pensions in the future. We have reached agreement with the unions on the importance of transparency, equality impacts, participation rates and opt-outs, scheme governance and high-level principles to inform consultations on scheme-level pensions.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

rose—

[David Mundell]

I will give way in a moment.

We have set out our proposals. When we make our reforms, the taxpayer needs to be properly protected from the future risks arising from increases in life expectancy by the link between the scheme normal pension age and the state pension age. On 2 November, after months of negotiations with the trade unions, the Government set out a revised offer that was more generous by 8%.

The offer is generous. Most staff on low and middle incomes will retire on a pension that is as good as what they expect today, and for many it will be better. Lord Hutton has said that it is difficult “to imagine” a more generous offer. The offer includes generous transitional arrangements for those closest to retirement; those closest to retirement should not have to face any change at all. This approach mirrors the steps taken in relation to increases in the state pension age, and it is fair that the same applies here. Anyone 10 years or less from retirement age on 1 April 2012 can be assured that there will be no detriment to their retirement income. However, this enhanced offer is conditional upon reaching agreement. It is an offer that can inform the scheme-by-scheme talks which will continue until the end of the year. Of course, if agreement cannot be reached, the Government may be required to revisit our proposals and consider whether those enhancements remain appropriate.

[Hywel Williams]

Some time ago, the Minister referred to a meeting held yesterday, but will he clarify who was involved? Was a Minister involved in the discussions?

[David Mundell]

My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury have made it clear that the meetings are ongoing on a regular basis in respect of the specific schemes. I am sure that I will be able to give the hon. Gentleman the information he requires.

Our objective remains to agree reforms of the main schemes—those for teachers, health and the NHS, the civil service and firefighters—by the end of the year, and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary will update the House in due course. The Government’s preferred scheme would produce better pensions for those on low and middle incomes who have devoted a lifetime to public service. At the same time, public service pensions will remain considerably better than those available in the private sector, as my hon. Friends have suggested. A primary school teacher earning £32,000 per year could receive a pension of £20,000 under our proposals. To earn the equivalent pension in the private sector, an employee would have to pay in more than one third of their salary.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Several of my constituents who work in the private sector have told me that they totally agree that public sector workers should get sustainable, affordable and fair pensions, but they are concerned that for them to have a similar pension they would have to increase their contributions by a factor of three or four. They do not think that that is fair in the current circumstances.

[David Mundell]

My hon. Friend makes a good point and I empathise with it as the MP for a constituency that has some of the lowest private sector wages in the UK.

Only 10% of private sector workers have access to the type of scheme that I was describing, which is at a guaranteed level and is inflation proofed, while only one third of private sector employees currently get any contributions from their employers.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I come back to the issue of the divide-and-rule strategy of playing the public sector off against the private sector. Is the Minister aware that the average pension of a retiring teacher is £9,000 per annum, and that the figures for NHS workers, for civil servants and for members of the armed forces are £7,000 per annum, £6,000 per annum and £7,500 per annum respectively? Do those figures seem unfair to him?

[David Mundell]

It is a question not of playing the public sector off against the private sector but of setting out a fair scheme for public sector workers, and that is what this Government are seeking to do.

The motion mentions two reports, one by the National Audit Office and the other by the Public Accounts Committee, which do not provide us with sustainable and lasting models for the future. Pensions, as they stand, are not affordable. As Lord Hutton says,

“the status quo is not tenable.”

The Office for Budget Responsibility’s latest forecast demonstrates that long-term costs have continued to increase since March, so reform is now essential because the costs of public service pensions have risen dramatically over the past few decades. The fact is that we are all living longer; the average 60-year-old is living 10 years longer than was the case in the 1970s.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for the points he is making. Does he agree that unless these reforms go ahead public sector workers will not be able to rely on anything, because there might not be any money to pay them anything? That is why it is so important that these reforms go ahead.

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree. The speech from the hon. Member for Arfon seemed to me, particularly on Wales, to be very much an argument for the status quo.

[Katy Clark]

We already know that public sector pensions are, on average, less than £5,600 a year, so if they are going to be even lower what will people live on—state benefits?

[David Mundell]

There is no suggestion that those on the lowest pay will receive lower state pensions. The Labour party has been very keen to engage in such scaremongering, but the Government’s proposals specifically protect those on the lowest earnings of below £15,000.

Before I finish, I want to turn to some of the specifics about Scotland.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

rose—

[David Mundell]

Perhaps the hon. Lady will agree with me on them.

[Dr Whiteford]

I hope that when the Minister comes to explain the protection for low-paid workers he will be able to clarify something about which many people in trade unions have been asking. Will part-time workers’ earnings and the increase in their contributions be calculated on the basis of full-time equivalent wages?

[David Mundell]

They will be based on full-time equivalent wages. That point is clear. The difference on pensions between this Government and the Scottish Government is that we are clear on the points that people might not want to hear rather than pretending to people that they can have everything when that is not sustainable.

[Dr Whiteford]

The contributions of a woman who works part-time in a professional job—for example, as a nurse or a teacher—but takes home less than £15,000 a year will be increased not at the lower rate but at the higher rate of a full-time equivalent.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady knows that in all aspects of employment, the full-time equivalent applies. That is what will apply to pensions.

[Mr Reid]

Will my hon. Friend confirm that that decision in relation to a nurse in Scotland is entirely one for the Scottish Government to take?

[David Mundell]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point and I am about to come on to some of the issues about the Scottish Government. The point that has been underlined several times in this debate is that there are many issues on which the Scottish Government could make a decision but have chosen not to do so.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Will the Minister give way?

[David Mundell]

I am sure it is not about Scotland, but I will.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am sure it could be. The Minister refers to transparency and clarity but yet again refuses to answer the question about ministerial involvement, or lack of it, in negotiations. Why will he use those words yet refuse to do that?

[David Mundell]

My understanding is that my colleague the Secretary of State for Health is meeting NHS unions as this debate is going on. There are significant ministerial discussions.

We have set out that the budgets of the devolved Administrations, who have these powers, would not be adjusted accordingly if they chose not to implement the reforms, because they have received higher settlements that reflect the proposed changes. If the devolved Administrations do not implement our public sector pensions reforms, Barnett consequentials will be reduced.

The Treasury wrote to tell the Scottish Government they had to apply the 3.2% increase in contributions or make up the shortfall and presented them with a choice. They could have chosen not to apply the increased contributions and make up the difference to the Treasury, but they followed a now familiar pattern: they failed to take any sort of decision and blamed Westminster at every turn. Their manufactured outrage is a smokescreen designed to cover the fact that they have no answers for the people of Scotland on how they would fund public sector pensions, never mind the wider state pension. We have asked them often enough—

[Mr Weir]

rose—

[David Mundell]

And perhaps the hon. Gentleman will answer us.

[Mr Weir]

The Minister is talking absolute nonsense. Will he not accept that if the Scottish Government did that, they would lose £1 billion from a budget that is already being cut by making the payment then losing money through a clawback from the Treasury?

[David Mundell]

I have already set out all the additional money that the Scottish Government have received since the budget settlement last year from which they could have made these choices. Sometimes, choices are difficult, but the Scottish Government prefer to pretend to people that they are on their side while not being willing to take difficult decisions.

[Ian Murray]

You are talking about choices that the SNP Scottish Government will make and one of the big choices they made was to cut capital spending far faster and far further than your own Government.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is referring to the Minister and should refer to him as the Minister or “he”. “You” means the occupant of the Chair, and this is nothing to do with me, fortunately.

[David Mundell]

That is a phrase often used in Scotland, Madam Deputy Speaker, by one of the—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I say to the Minister that I am absolutely aware of the use of “you”, but I think that in parliamentary debates we should stick to the convention here, as I am sure he agrees.

[David Mundell]

I will indeed do that, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The SNP Scottish Government have played fast and loose with Scotland on pensions. Rather than making responsible suggestions, they resort to scare tactics. In this motion, the SNP and Plaid Cymru are frightening people by saying that they will receive less pension. The SNP’s submission to Lord Hutton, as we have heard, offered at best no better and in some cases a much worse deal. The Scottish Public Pensions Agency, an agency of the Scottish Government, headed by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth, John Swinney, made a number of interesting suggestions when it illustrated options for further change. It suggested reducing current employer contribution cap levels with members meeting all costs above that cap. Alongside that, it proposed to reduce the levels of benefits available without necessarily reducing the levels of contributions.

[Pete Wishart]

I am listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman. I suppose it should not come as a surprise to anybody in this House that there are now more giant pandas in Scotland than there are Tory MPs; listening to the Minister, we can see why. Will the Minister concede that there was no submission from the Scottish Government to the Hutton report, but there was a submission from an agency of the Scottish Government?

[David Mundell]

I do not accept that analysis. The hon. Gentleman might have got a laugh if he had thought that up himself rather than stealing it from the Twittersphere.

The Scottish Government’s proposals were a toxic cocktail topped up by suggestions to introduce later retirement ages, change accrual rates, apply changes to all members, not just new scheme members, and move to a defined contribution scheme, which places the risk of uncertainty over the value of the final pension on the member. All those proposals would mean a worse deal for public service employees than the coalition’s proposals.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

One last time.

[David Mowat]

I am listening very carefully to the Minister’s comments on the interaction between the Scottish Government and himself. Does he agree that one of the interesting features of the motion is the last part, which appears to concede the point that the Barnett consequentials should be reviewed and that certain types of expenditure should be taken out of them? If that is a principle that the SNP wishes to adopt, we should consider the Barnett formula more generally and the whole settlement and block grant for Scotland.

[David Mundell]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, because that is one issue on which there is an absolute divide between Plaid Cymru and the SNP. Plaid Cymru wants significant change to the Barnett formula and, as I understand it, the SNP does not. That is part of the inherent illogicality that is at the heart of their argument.

I am surprised that we hear nothing these days about independence, which is relevant. Perhaps that is because Plaid Cymru does not promote independence. I look forward to hearing SNP Members set out exactly how an independent Scotland would be able to fund not only existing pensions, but provide enhanced pensions, without consequences for pensioners in Scotland. I am sure that we will hear calls for the break-up of the United Kingdom.

I also look forward to hearing from Labour Members. I understand that Labour MSPs chose not to take part in the debate in the Scottish Parliament because they were working in their constituencies that day. I know that the Labour party has not been an effective Opposition in Holyrood, particularly since the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) left, but not to turn up at all is taking that to an extreme. I look forward to hearing their contributions today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Iain Stewart]

That is not my point at all.

[David Mundell]

It is just a smoke screen.

[Iain Stewart]

Absolutely. It is just a smoke screen.

It would create an enormous muddle if we had to pull apart the pension contributions, and we have heard absolutely nothing from the Scottish nationalists about how they would do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I do not intend to repeat the statements about the importance of public sector pensions that have been made so eloquently by many of my colleagues.

I am surprised that SNP Members, who among others have called this debate, have apparently not wanted to speak in it, because only one has done so. However, some of the comments they have made in interventions need to be addressed. It is not true to say that Labour Members have not raised the subject of public sector pensions in this House. Perhaps SNP Members were not here on 30 November to hear what the Leader of the Opposition said at Prime Minister’s questions and were not here during the Opposition day debate that followed, when several Members from my party made very strong speeches in support of public sector workers and on the pensions issue.

Moreover, in this week’s Opposition day debate on the economy, only one SNP Member was present, for a short time—the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr MacNeil). I will not attempt to pronounce the Gaelic name for his constituency because, as a lowland Scot, Gaelic is not native to me, and I am not going to pretend that it is. That was the extent of their interest in debating the economy and the issues that are so important in underpinning this debate on pensions, because unless we get the economy right, we will be in some difficulty. Today, several SNP Members left the Chamber early, presumably to put out their press releases to say how they had raised this important issue, but in reality they have not.

In the motion, SNP Members condemn the coalition Government for not being prepared to give them the money directly so as to be able to relieve some, but by no means all, public sector workers in Scotland of the contribution increase. They cannot have their cake and eat it within the system. They cannot have the Barnett consequentials when they like them and decide that they do not want them when they do not like them. Yes, it would be different if they achieved independence, although at that point we would have to ask, “How are you going to afford all the things that you say you are going to afford?”

[David Mundell]

Is the hon. Lady as surprised as I am that we have not heard a single mention of independence from SNP Members? As I understood it, that was their solution to all the pension issues in Scotland.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I suspect that in the fantasy world of the debate on independence, as it tends to be, SNP Members would indeed say that that is the answer, but they have to know how they would fund that and about issues to do with tax and making people as well off as possible.

During the SNP Member’s brief appearance in Tuesday’s debate on the economy, he kept talking about the Scandinavian economies. Of course, in the Scandinavian economies there is a very different view of taxation. It is disingenuous of the SNP to want to pose as a low-tax party and tell people that they can have wonderful public services and, at the same time, council tax freezes—which, by the way, are very regressive because they most benefit the people who are best off. The SNP has to decide where it wants to be. It deliberately put such a sentiment in the motion because it wants to be able to say that Labour Members will not support it.

We are in support of public sector workers. We do not think that what the Government are doing is right. We feel, very strongly, that we have to stop what this Government are doing, which is constantly to pit one group of workers against others. They are setting public against private, setting people in work against people who are out of work, and stirring up what I heard described on two occasions on Radio 4 at the weekend as an atmosphere of anger and bitterness. In the discussions on phone-in programmes about what is happening, all the clips were of people shouting at each other, saying, “Why should I, as a private sector worker, pay for your pension?” No commentator said, “Where is that anger being generated from?”, but it is being deliberately stirred up by this Government—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

This has been a wide-ranging debate and I think that there is agreement across the House that pension provision in the long term needs to be affordable, sustainable and fair, not just for public sector workers but for all old age pensioners.

Although we agree on those long-term objectives, the central contention of the debate has been that the short-term measures to reduce the deficit will hit public sector workers but be of no benefit to them. The issue at the heart of the debate is that the proposed 3.2% increase to public sector pension contributions is a straightforward cash grab by the Treasury on public sector workers. It has nothing to do with building long-term sustainability into our pensions system, but is unequivocally a short-term measure to cut the deficit.

Several hon. Members have pointed out that this is not fair and not affordable for a public sector work force who are already feeling the full effects of austerity measures that have gone too far, too fast. Most public sector workers are facing a two-year pay freeze, a 1% pay rise in 2013, increases in VAT and national insurance, and inflation of more than 5%. The cost of their essentials, such as heating, food and fuel, is going through the roof. The pressure on household budgets is intense and is getting worse.

In that context, increasing pension contributions for short-term gain is just the wrong thing to do. It is being done at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way. It carries the risk that large numbers of people, especially part-time workers, will drop out of schemes altogether because of the immediate financial pressures that they face.

I think, and most Members on both sides of the House agree, that public sector pensions matter. They matter to the one in five people who are directly affected. They matter to the rest of us who depend on public services and who realise that our public service work force are critical to the delivery of high-quality services. Above all, they matter to all of us who care about the welfare of older people in retirement. All of us want to enjoy a decent level of income. For parts of the country that have a high dependency on the public sector work force, the issue is even more acute.

[David Mundell]

What I do not understand about the hon. Lady’s logic is that the Scottish National party has said that it wants to have a referendum on independence for Scotland in the next four years. The area on which that would most significantly impact is pensions and pensioners, yet in her contribution and in the contributions of her fellow SNP Members, we have heard nothing about independence or about how pensions would be provided, guaranteed or sustained in an independent Scotland.

[Dr Whiteford]

I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the Order Paper and the motion that we are debating. It will come as no surprise to anybody in the House that I believe in independence—I am an SNP Member. However, we are talking about public sector pensions and the Government’s proposals. It might be a nice distraction for the Government to talk about other issues that are equally relevant to Scotland’s future.

One of the most disappointing things about this debate has been that the Government have tried to defend their proposals by constantly highlighting the disparity between public and private sector pensions. We owe a debt to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) for pointing out the detrimental state of private sector pensions. When the Government responded to the interim Hutton report, my understanding was that they accepted its conclusion that pensions should not become a race to the bottom. However, speaker after speaker on the Government Benches has resorted to the argument that because private sector pensions are really poor, public sector pensions should be levelled down. That will not in any way address our pensions challenge. It is not sustainable and it is not fair to anyone in the private or public sector.

We have some of the highest levels of pensioner poverty in Europe. Currently, 30% of pensioner households and a massive 43% of single pensioners, most of whom are women, are in receipt of income-related benefits, whether that is pension credit, housing benefit or council tax benefit. Having large numbers of older people on means-tested benefits is not the way to do things. It is the price that we pay for poor pension provision. It is not an efficient way to support people in retirement.

The other big myth that has been well and truly blown out of the water today is that public sector pensions are gold-plated. Quite simply, they are not. Member after Member has pointed out that most public servants retire on modest incomes. The PCS points out that its average member’s pension is only £4,200 year. That is £80 a week, which is only £4 above the Government’s pensioner poverty figure. If such people’s pensions are reduced or they opt out because of the new conditions and contribution increases, it will simply put the burden back on means-tested benefits to keep people out of abject poverty in their old age.

In local government, in which 67% of the work force are women, the average woman’s pension is only £2,800 a year. Almost half of local government workers are on pensions of less than £3,000, and even in the NHS, in which salaries are much higher because of the professional qualifications involved, three quarters of members are still on pensions of less than £9,000 a year.

The Government have tried to sell us their proposals on the basis that low and middle-income earners will be protected from contribution increases, and may even be better off as a result. That is one of their key claims. However, because of the switch in indexing from RPI to CPI, all public sector workers will lose out in the longer term, and they will all be working longer. That indexing switch has been mentioned in the debate, and I am sorry that more Members did not vote against it when they had the chance to do so back in February. They have a chance to rectify that now, and I hope that they will support us in the Lobby today.

Perhaps the most misleading aspect of the Government’s approach to the contributions increases is that they have said there will be protection for low-paid workers. As the Minister admitted earlier, the contributions of part-time workers will be calculated on the basis of full-time equivalent salaries, which will have massive implications for women, who make up the vast majority of part-time workers. About 32% of the women in our work force work part-time so that they can combine employment with unpaid work in the home or looking after others.

The Government have said that workers on incomes under £15,000 will not pay increased contributions, and that other low earners on up to £21,000 will pay reduced contributions, but when we look at the small print, we see that those thresholds, calculated on the basis of full-time equivalent salaries rather than their actual take-home pay, will mean that even professional people such as nurses and teachers who work part-time will have their pension contributions increased.

Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)

David Mundell Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I regret that the written answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) on 15 November, Official Report, column 665W, contained an error. The answer stated that the TaxPayers Alliance applied for permission to bring judicial review against the Secretary of State for Scotland in respect of the Glasgow Commonwealth Games Act 2008 (Games Association Right) Order 2009. This is not correct. The application for permission to bring judicial review was made by Big Brother Watch and not by the TaxPayers Alliance.

The correct answer is as follows:

David Mundell: In the last Parliament there were two applications:

(1) Derek Traynor and James Fisher raised petitions for judicial review against the Secretary of State for Scotland and Scottish Ministers in respect of the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2007. The applications were unsuccessful at first instance in the Court of Session, the petitioners appealed, and the appeals remain pending at their request. The legal costs incurred by the Secretary of State for Scotland to date are £4,555.50.

(2) Big Brother Watch applied for permission to bring judicial review against the Secretary of State for Scotland in respect of the Glasgow Commonwealth Games Act 2008 (Games Association Right) Order 2009. The application was refused. The Scotland Office’s legal costs were £7,080. The Scotland Office applied for costs against the applicant. Costs were awarded in part and they have been paid.

There have been no applications for judicial review against the Scotland Office since May 2010.

Scotland (Poverty)

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Thank you, Mr. Robertson. I welcome the opportunity to appear under your chairmanship, and it is particularly appropriate that you are in the Chair for this debate on St. Andrew’s day. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) for instigating this debate. She and other hon. Members who have contributed to the debate are correct to say that there should be more discussion and debate of these issues in relation to Scotland, and that there should be more discussion and debate in this Parliament in respect of the reserved issues for which this Government are responsible in Scotland. Scotland has two Governments, both of which play a significant role and both of which should be held to account.

I also agree that the two Governments should work more closely together on many of the issues that have been touched on today. Sadly, for reasons also touched on by many hon. Members, principally the obsession of the SNP Government in Edinburgh with independence and constitutional issues, it has not always been possible to have the dialogue that would serve the people of Scotland best—on substantive matters in relation to policy objectives and outcomes, rather than the debate constantly being about who did what.

We have had a number of detailed contributions to the debate, particularly by the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), and the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), who chairs the Select Committee. I give them a firm commitment that I will take away the points that they have made, and raise them with Department for Work and Pensions colleagues and I will write back to them on their specific points. While we might not be in agreement on the policy prescription, or whether the policies of the Government of which they were a part delivered much of what the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock set out, I am in agreement with them that the issues that they raised are important and significant.

As ever, I commend the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) for the passion in her contribution. Again, the issues that she raised are worthy of much more significant debate, especially in relation to the concerns about the impact of hidden poverty, which is not just a financial issue. There would be agreement across the House on that. I listened to the points made by the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke). I do not necessarily agree with what he had to say, but I sense his passion on the issue, and he has a long track record of fighting the cause of the poor, and that is to be commended. My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) did not make a speech, although it felt as if he did. It will not surprise you to learn, Mr. Robertson, that I agree with most of the points that he made in his interventions. I am sure that, over the Christmas period, when he reflects on such matters, as he was asked to do by the right hon. Member for Stirling, he will reflect on the many achievements of the coalition Government in taking forward their agenda. When he intervened on the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain)—I welcome him to the first real exchange that we have had since he took his position—my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute make the most significant point, which is how the various aspirations that were expressed during the debate would be paid for. We did not hear anything about that. We heard again about Labour’s five-point plan. As far as I am aware, that is a £20 billion black hole for which no funding has been identified.

[Sandra Osborne]

Does the Minister agree that a far more effective way of solving the youth unemployment problem would be a £2 billion tax on bank bonuses, which would fund 100,000 jobs for young people?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady knows that the Government have moved forward with a bank levy, which has raised more than the tax on bonuses that her Government set out. It is populist to say, “tax the bankers,” but that does not set out where the money would come from that would create the funding she suggests.

I hope the hon. Lady will join me in welcoming yesterday’s announcement on the youth contract—a significant step forward in tackling what everyone accepts is the serious problem of youth unemployment. Of course, it was not acknowledged in today’s debate that youth unemployment rose under the previous Labour Government. Youth unemployment is a serious issue, on which we should be trying to work on a cross-party basis. That is why I was pleased to be part of a seminar in Ayrshire with the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Donohoe), bringing together the UK Government and the Scottish Government to look at the underlying problems of youth unemployment. That is why I am pleased that my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will host a national meeting in Scotland with John Swinney to focus on youth unemployment in Scotland.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

3. What steps he is taking to reduce administrative costs in his Department.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Scotland Office Ministers are determined that the Office contribute to the Government’s task of reducing the budget deficit. I and my officials are bearing down hard on administrative costs through a range of efficiency measures, including using framework contracts negotiated by other Government bodies, sharing resources with the other territorial offices and making more efficient use of leasehold property.

[Mr Bone]

The Prime Minister wants to see smaller and more effective government. Only last year, the Secretary of State for Scotland called for the abolition of the Scotland Office. Would the very capable Minister not be making a career enhancing move if he suggested now from the Dispatch Box that we should abolish the Scotland Office, the Wales Office and the Northern Ireland Office and replace them with an office for the Union?

[David Mundell]

Absolutely not. At this time, when the United Kingdom faces its greatest ever danger from separatists, the Scotland Office is a bulwark against independence.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

Is that what is called cutting the Department to the bone? Will the Minister name all the staff of his Department? I remember telling a previous Secretary of State that it must be the only empire in the whole of Westminster where the Secretary of State is able to name all his staff: can he?

[David Mundell]

I pay tribute to the staff of the Scotland Office. With a small number of staff, we have pursued the Scotland Bill, a very significant measure, through this House and into the other place. The Scotland Office has a key role to play as we move forward in preserving Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the benefits to Scotland of the Union; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

6. What assessment his Department has made of the report of Electoral Commission Scotland on the 2011 elections to the Scottish Parliament; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I welcome the Electoral Commission’s finding that the Scottish Parliament election was well administered and voter focused.

[Mike Freer]

Given that the Scottish Government did not complain about the Electoral Commission being involved in the elections, does my right hon. Friend think it odd that they now want to set up their own independent commission on the referendum?

[David Mundell]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The SNP Government had no complaint about the Electoral Commission’s involvement in the Scottish Parliament elections and the alternative vote referendum but, at great cost to the taxpayer, they intend to set up their own commission to oversee the referendum. No wonder so many people are speculating that that is an attempt to rig the referendum.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister meet the Electoral Commission in Scotland on 30 November, or will he, like me, be supporting the public sector strike against Tory cuts in pensions?

[David Mundell]

I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman, as convenor of the Scottish Affairs Committee, brought the Electoral Commission before his Committee. That will provide valuable evidence in the debate on the role that it should play in any referendum.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware of any recommendation in the report about changing the electorate in Scotland in the same way as the Scottish Government want to gerrymander the electorate for their independence referendum?

[David Mundell]

I am not aware of any such suggestions in the Electoral Commission report, but my hon. Friend is correct to highlight the issues with the Scottish separatists’ referendum that are causing such uncertainty—the franchise, the question and the timing. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I appeal to the House to come to order and listen to Mr Frank Doran.

--- Later in debate ---

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

9. What discussions he has had with the First Minister on reform of the common fisheries policy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with the First Minister and his officials on a range of issues of significance to the Scottish economy. I have frequent discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and Environment, including a meeting last week on the common fisheries policy and other matters.

[Miss McIntosh]

rose— [Interruption]

[Miss McIntosh]

Does the Minister agree that the direction in which the negotiations on fisheries are going is entirely in the interests of the Scottish and UK fisheries in ending discards and allowing for regional fisheries agreements?

[David Mundell]

I agree with my hon. Friend, just as I agree with Bertie Armstrong, chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, who stated in his evidence to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, which she chairs, that the UK should speak with one voice in fisheries negotiations.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

What discussions has the Minister had with the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) about tradeable quotas to ensure that they are not taken advantage of by multinationals who use the UK as a flag of convenience?

[David Mundell]

I am sure that the Under-Secretary will have understood the hon. Lady’s point. She, like me, will welcome the fact that there will be a Backbench Business Committee debate on fisheries next week.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

10. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the level of unemployment in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are in regular contact with John Swinney, the Scottish Minister responsible for employment, about unemployment in Scotland. Scottish Government officials and agencies have been involved in all the employment seminars that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has held over the past six months.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Will the Minister tell the people in my constituency who have lost their jobs since he got his job whether unemployment is a price worth paying for a deficit reduction plan that is choking off growth and raising Government debt?

[David Mundell]

I tell the hon. Lady to be slightly less predictable and finally to take some responsibility for the situation in which her Government left this country, including the biggest peacetime deficit in our history.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

Unemployment in Kintyre could be reduced if the community bid to take over the former RAF base at Machrihanish goes ahead. I hope that the Ministry of Defence will make a contribution towards making the water supply fit for purpose, so that the community’s bid is viable. Will the Minister please encourage the MOD to do so?

[David Mundell]

I am happy to meet my hon. Friend and take forward his concerns with the MOD.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Will the Minister take responsibility for something that his Government have done? This morning, House of Commons figures show that youth unemployment in my constituency has risen by 218.2%. What is he going to tell the young people of Stirling that the Government have done over the past 18 months?

[David Mundell]

The right hon. Lady knows that youth unemployment rose under the Labour Government too. It is a serious issue, and it should not be the subject of party politicking. We should all work together to resolve youth unemployment.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Constitutional Status (Scotland)

David Mundell Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) on securing this debate on what is an important issue, and I thank all hon. Members for their presence at it. I note the hon. Gentleman’s participation in the contest for the leadership of the Scottish Labour party. I would wish him well, but I know that that would damage his chances. There is also a contest for the deputy leadership of the Scottish Labour party. As I have already made clear, when a newspaper headline read, “Mundell Backs Davidson”, it did not refer to the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), so that should help his chances.

The Government have been clear that they are totally opposed to the break-up of the United Kingdom. The Prime Minister has committed to working constructively with the devolved Administrations on the basis of mutual respect. There are many issues on which the Government have worked successfully with the Scottish Government. However, we do not agree with the Scottish Government in their pursuit of separatism. On that issue, we will give them no succour. Whatever factors played a part in May’s election result, a rise in support for Scottish separatism was not one of them.

However, let me be clear that we are not complacent about the Scottish Government’s call for a referendum on the breaking up of the United Kingdom. We are challenging them. They must answer the substantive questions, to which the hon. Member for Glasgow South referred, about what they mean by “independence”. They have been uncharacteristically shy in setting out exactly what independence would involve and what it would cost.

After repeated questioning, the Scottish Government have now told me that the 2009 White Paper “Your Scotland, Your Voice” and the 2010 draft Referendum (Scotland) Bill hold all the answers. As hon. Members would expect, we are scrutinising those papers thoroughly. However, so far they appear simply to raise more questions than answers. We now also have another glossy SNP pamphlet entitled “Your Scotland, Your Future”, in which, as usual, dozens of promises are set out but there are no facts and no evidence.

The hon. Gentleman raised valuable points about the Scottish Government’s proposed referendum. First, the date of the referendum is crucial. Not only is the current situation unsettling, but many people’s patience is being tested by the lack of detail coming from the Scottish Government on what independence would actually mean. Business leaders are now beginning to say that they are worried about the uncertainty that that is creating about Scotland’s future, which is damaging to Scotland and to the United Kingdom. We are trying to get more detail out of the Scottish Government. At present, all that we have to go on is the vague time line of

“the second half of the parliamentary term”

and no other detail. We do not have to accept that that is satisfactory. As the hon. Gentleman said, that time scale was never a manifesto commitment. In fact, the First Minister revealed the notion only a week before the elections took place. If the case for separatism is so strong, why wait to hold the referendum?

Secondly, the hon. Gentleman mentioned the referendum question. The First Minister has raised the prospect of “devolution-max”, also known as “independence-lite”, or possibly “full fiscal autonomy”, and is dangling it as a supposed third way. That is a fallacy. There is no third way. The only choice is between separatism and remaining in the United Kingdom.

We can review and update the devolution settlement, as Calman did and as the Scotland Bill is currently doing. The Calman commission, formed through cross-party consensus, recognised the strength and benefits of the economic and social union between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Its recommendations are now being implemented through the Scotland Bill, which represents a radical, historic and significant change to the financing of public services in Scotland. We can allow the settlement to evolve, but selling the Scottish people the undefined SNP construct of “devo-max” is selling the Scottish public a pig in a poke. Any referendum question needs to be clear—yes or no to separatism. As the hon. Gentleman said, anything else would simply be jiggery-pokery.

Thirdly, the hon. Gentleman mentioned the franchise. The Scottish Government have indicated that 16 and 17-year-olds should be given the right to vote in any referendum. Many people are already suspicious that the SNP is trying to rig the electorate to get the result it wants. Is it appropriate to experiment with changes to the franchise on a matter of such importance as the future of Scotland?

Finally, the hon. Gentleman discussed the role of the Electoral Commission. It is an independent body, respected for ensuring transparency in polls across the United Kingdom. In their 2010 draft referendum Bill and consultation paper, the Scottish Government stated that they intended to create their own electoral commission for any referendum. Questions have to be asked about that course of action. What is wrong with the current Electoral Commission, which has delivered so much in Scotland to date? What is the motive behind the Scottish Government creating their own commission? How many extra costs would that create for the taxpayer?

The hon. Gentleman also made a valid point about the Canadian Clarity Act, and it is worthy of further consideration. Hon. Members will be aware that the Scottish Affairs Committee is holding two inquiries into questions relating to a referendum and what the break-up of the United Kingdom would mean for Scotland and the rest of the UK. I have no doubt that academics and experts called before the Committee will be keen to explore the Canadian Clarity Act and its parallels with Scotland.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister correctly identifies that the Scottish Affairs Committee is looking at aspects of a separation referendum. Will he make the resources of government, particularly civil servants, available to provide information to the Committee? That would help us to clarify some of the questions that we identify in our current trawl. Those issues will require settlement before any referendum is held, so that the Scottish public can be well informed.

[David Mundell]

I can give the Committee Chairman that assurance. The Government will do everything we can to support the Committee’s work, because we believe that the people should be well informed before any referendum takes place. We sincerely hope that the Scottish Government will follow our example and be forthcoming with the same level of information, which is required not just by the Committee, but by the people of Scotland if they are to make a decision on this important matter.

[Pete Wishart]

The Minister does not quite understand that the days of this House determining and dictating what the Scottish do in future are over and gone, and do not matter any more. Does he foresee any situation or condition in which this Westminster Conservative Government will take over the referendum process?

[David Mundell]

If the hon. Gentleman believed a word of that diatribe, he would call the referendum now and demonstrate what the people of Scotland think.

We share so much in common across the United Kingdom and we have a successful partnership that delivers stability and prosperity for all parts of the nation. I think we will see people across Scotland coming out in favour of the most successful economic and social union ever when they eventually get the chance to vote. It is right to keep the United Kingdom together when so much unites us. The best of the UK is still to come.

Let hon. Members be in no doubt that the Government will not be neutral on the break-up of the United Kingdom. We will continue to argue for a better future for Scotland within the UK. We look forward to continuing this debate and to contributing to the Scottish Affairs Committee inquiries in due course, and to the Scottish Government’s co-operation with those two inquiries, when they can answer the questions raised in the debate. What the people of Scotland need now is not vulgar triumphalism from Mr Salmond and glossy brochures from the SNP, but facts, evidence and answers.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Mundell Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on Remploy’s operations in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The Government are totally committed to supporting disabled people into employment, and the amount of money going into that is being protected. A consultation event on the future strategy of Remploy is taking place in Glasgow today, and Remploy staff have been invited to attend.

[Jim McGovern]

As job losses continue to increase in my constituency, can the Minister say whether he intends to engage with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that the Remploy jobs in Dundee are protected?

[David Mundell]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman, who is a doughty fighter for Remploy, that no decisions have been made. I understand that he attended a meeting in the Scottish Parliament organised by Helen Eadie MSP that undertook to submit a response to the consultation on Remploy, and that response will be welcome.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

The Dundee Remploy factory is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), but many of my constituents work in it. The factory makes first-class chemical and biological suits, which are required by the emergency services and the military. I urge the Minister to speak not just to the Department for Work and Pensions, however important that might be, but to the Ministry of Defence and the Home Secretary to ensure that the emergency services and the military look carefully at what Remploy produces and, in particular, the quality of the suits that the Dundee factory makes.

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman will know that his constituency neighbour has already met the MOD, which has confirmed the high standard and quality of the work Remploy does in its Dundee factory. However, I urge the hon. Gentleman and everyone in Scotland with an interest to take part in the consultation.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am sure that the Minister is aware that as well as the Dundee factory there are seven other Remploy factories in Scotland. Does he accept that while his colleagues in the Government are talking about the importance of manufacturing it would be crass and foolhardy to embark on the closure of factories that provide goods and jobs, where public sector procurement could make the difference to ensure that they are viable in future? Will he make representations across Government to ensure that the jobs in those eight factories in Scotland are protected?

[David Mundell]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that it is not acceptable that around 50% of disabled people are out of work and that those who are in work often do jobs that are far below their potential. Closing the unemployment gap between disabled and non-disabled people could boost the overall economy by £13 billion, and the Government want to achieve that. We are undertaking a consultation; I urge him and everyone with an interest to take part in it.

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

2. When he last met representatives of the six largest energy providers in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Scottish forces gave assistance to forces in England through the provision of police support units. During the debate in the House on 11 August, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said:

“I am aware of the excellent role that Scottish police officers played, particularly helping the West Midlands force. I saw for myself their impact when they arrived in Birmingham, and it is very good that our forces can co-operate in that way.”—[Official Report, 11 August 2011; Vol. 531, c. 1081.]

[Fiona Bruce]

Does the Minister agree that the excellent cross-border support provided by Scottish police has exemplified to everyone in Britain the advantages of a flexible, devolved United Kingdom?

[David Mundell]

I entirely agree. There are many examples of Scottish forces’ playing an important role in incidents elsewhere in the United Kingdom, not least in dealing with the shootings that took place in Cumbria in 2010.

[Bob Blackman]

Londoners welcomed the robust standard of policing brought from Scotland during the recent riots. What plans are there for closer co-operation, joint operations and further training, so that we can learn the lessons of the past?

[David Mundell]

As the Prime Minister made clear on 11 August, Strathclyde police have achieved significant success—particularly in Glasgow—in pursuing gang-related initiatives, including a community initiative to reduce violence. They are committed to working with the Metropolitan police and other forces in England to share best practice in that regard.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

During the recess, I spent six days with Lothian and Borders police as part of the parliamentary police scheme. The people with whom I worked were concerned about the possibility that the call on Scottish forces would deny them, for example, any holidays in August next year during the Olympics, and also about the possible impact on the budget of Scottish forces. Is the Secretary of State lobbying to secure adequate recompense for the Scottish forces for the contribution that they have made, and will make in the future, to English policing?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Gentleman will know that there are arrangements with the Home Office for occasions when police forces are deployed from other parts of the United Kingdom. However, I am sure that the Home Secretary has heard the specific points made by the hon. Gentleman, and I will raise them directly with the Scottish Government.

[Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)]

8. What recent discussions he has had with the Deputy Prime Minister on establishing a commission on the West Lothian question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

12. What assessment he has made of the effects on job creation in Scotland of the employer’s national insurance holiday scheme.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

As of 7 September 2011, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has received 922 successful applications for the national insurance holiday scheme from new businesses located in Scotland. Of the 396 applications received for the 2010-11 financial year, 386 claimed the national insurance contributions holiday, supporting approximately 1,300 new jobs.

[Mr Bain]

Should not the Minister be lobbying the Chancellor to create a proper strategy for growth for Scottish manufacturing and construction, instead of offering such complacent support for a scheme that has created less than 10% of the jobs that were forecast and that has been described by the Federation of Small Businesses in Scotland as badly designed and failing to deliver at a time when the country needs the creation of new jobs?

[David Mundell]

We will certainly not be taking any lectures on national insurance from Labour, a party that sought to introduce a jobs tax in 2009. [Interruption.] I had the benefit of visiting the hon. Gentleman’s constituency last week, and I would have thought that he welcomed the fact that these jobs that did not exist before and that they have a better chance of becoming permanent with the NIC holiday—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I want to hear Mr Angus MacNeil.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

It seems you are not alone, Mr Speaker.

Job creation is majorly affected by fuel costs. In my constituency in Stornoway fuel is £1.50 a litre and in Uist it is £1.57. A huge component of those prices is the cost of distribution from the refineries. A few months ago, the Secretary of State gave me assurances that he would look into this. Can the Minister update me on any progress that has been made regarding fuel distribution from refineries?

[David Mundell]

I can update the hon. Gentleman on the progress on receiving the derogation from the EU to allow fuel prices in his constituency and other remote parts to be lower than they currently are. I should have thought that he welcomed this coalition Government’s delivering that commitment.