Iain Stewart
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Public Sector Pensions
Iain Stewart Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
Although it is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy), I must confess some disappointment that I have not yet heard from a member of the Scottish National party. In my short contribution to this debate, I should like to focus on what I think is the Scottish nationalists’ real motive behind the motion and the debate on public sector pension reform—their ambition for the Scottish Parliament to have full control over public sector pensions as part of its drive towards fiscal autonomy and full separation. Let me draw the House’s attention to the words last week of the First Minister, Alex Salmond:
“The way to stop this Parliament and Government being hamstrung by the policies of the UK Government is to give us the financial independence that we require in order to do that.”
That is clearly his aim. [Interruption.] And from a sedentary position, Scottish nationalist Members endorse it. That aim is at the heart of the motion.
Notwithstanding the local variation within the devolved Administrations over the administration of pension funds, to which my right hon. Friend the Minister referred, it would be a hugely retrograde step to move away from a unified United Kingdom public sector pension scheme.
Stewart Hosie
There is no unified public sector pension scheme, but there is a police pension scheme, a firefighter pension scheme, a Scottish teachers’ scheme, a local government scheme and an NHS superannuation scheme. They are all different; there is no unified scheme. The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong.
Iain Stewart
If the hon. Gentleman forgives me, I was using shorthand. I am well aware that there are different schemes for different professions within the public sector, but in a UK context they are broadly similar between Scotland and England.
Paragraph 5.26 of the Hutton report reads:
“There has been scope for some variations in terms to meet local circumstances, but the resulting pension schemes have essentially been the same as those established by the UK Government. That has, for example, helped to prevent pension terms becoming an obstacle to transfers of staff and skills within a sector of the public service. It seems reasonable to continue with this approach.”
Paragraph 5.27 reads:
“The key design features should be part of a UK-wide policy framework that extends to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, with limited adaptations of other features to meet local circumstances.”
I agree with that but it would be hugely disruptive to try to break apart what has been a unified system up until now.
Iain Stewart
As I said, in quoting from the Hutton report, local variations can be provided for, and that is exactly what my right hon. Friend the Minister said. There is no inconsistency at all.
Most public sector pension schemes—with the exception, I think, of the local government one—are pay-as-you-go schemes. There is not a separate fund, a pot of money or assets that are invested and then pay out. The current pensions are paid for from current receipts and underwritten more widely by the Government, with the expectation that tomorrow’s pensions will be paid for largely by tomorrow’s contributions. With fiscal autonomy or full separation, however, how would all that be disaggregated? It would lead to an enormous muddle over who was liable to pay for what and over who would be liable for the shortfall in future pension payments accrued under the current system? Were we to move down that road, I would wish to train as an actuary, because a lot of them would make a lot of money from disentangling everything. [Interruption.] Indeed, they earn a good money as it is. But they would earn even more.
Stewart Hosie
The hon. Gentleman cannot argue that these are in-year contributions and then make the case that there is a pension pot requiring actuarial rules. There is either a pot of money that is paid for and needs to be disaggregated, or there is not, but he has just said that there is not one because it is paid for in-year. Which is it?
Iain Stewart
Absolutely. It is just a smoke screen.
It would create an enormous muddle if we had to pull apart the pension contributions, and we have heard absolutely nothing from the Scottish nationalists about how they would do that.
Gordon Banks
Although there might not be a pension pot, there is a pot of responsibility.
Gordon Banks
There is a pot of responsibility. There might not be a pension pot, but there is a pot of responsibility, and it is that responsibility for future pensions that the SNP would have to bear.
Iain Stewart
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.
As well as the nightmare of disaggregating the fund, a range of dynamics would be set in train that would be difficult to forecast. I remember when the Scottish Executive set a pay increase for teachers that was more generous than that given to teachers in England—I think it was back in 2001. That resulted in a significant transfer of teachers wanting to work in Scottish schools because of the more beneficial terms. If we move from a unified pension scheme, we will set in train in those difficulties in accounting for who is responsible for paying what.
Iain Stewart
If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will not give way. I have been quite generous, and I want to bring my remarks to a conclusion shortly to allow as many other Members as possible to take part.
The other thing about which we have heard nothing from the Scottish nationalists is how they would pay for a more generous pension scheme in Scotland—if, as I assume, that is their intention. In the confines of a short speech, I shall not go into the whys and wherefores of the cost of separation from the United Kingdom; my point is that we should consider pension reforms in the context of the United Kingdom. There are passionate views on both sides about what that future should be, and I completely respect the views that many hold in arguing for a sustainable pension scheme for the future, which is what we all want.
The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) is not in his place now, but earlier he referred to his new grandson. I recall following him in a debate a few weeks ago in which he announced to the House the safe arrival of, I think, Rosie, his new granddaughter. It is those children—those being born now—for whom we should be looking to ensure we can afford a decent pension, whether in the private or public sector, when they reach retirement. I hope that we can come to a decent consensus and conclusion on pensions, but it is not helped when the Scottish nationalists raise a smokescreen and attempt to turn this into a constitutional point, in order to achieve their aim of separating Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Breaking up that system would be a nightmare.