The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)
I beg to move,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Local Government Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.
Going back to yesterday’s debate, I appear to be the “accredited person” to move today’s motion. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is not in his place today, but this is a private Member’s Bill moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), so this is a unique debate.
We are debating the motion because the Government are keen that the Bill in its amended state should move forward. The passing of a money resolution is an important step in that process. The costs to local authorities of implementing the new duties in the Bill—to give written notification of decisions and to review the decisions—are seen as a new head of expenditure to be met out of the grants that local authorities already receive from central Government. Similarly, any increase in the administrative costs of the local ombudsman service associated with the Bill will be seen as a new head of expenditure to be met from the grant that the ombudsman receives from central Government to fund the organisation. The motion refers to payments under other Acts being increased as a result of the Bill, because, technically, a new head of expenditure is a notional increase for the purposes of Commons financial procedure, even though it might not, in fact, give rise to an increase in expenditure.
Against that background, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch for his work on the Bill. I thank him for working so constructively on the proposed amendments, which mean that I can confirm the Government’s intention to support it in its amended state. The Bill was last debated on 18 March. At that stage, the Government were unable to support it. However, it received its Second Reading and the amendments made since make it acceptable to the Government.
We think that the Bill will perform a valuable function. It is right that if a local authority decides to stop or impose restrictions of the kind referred to, the reasons should be set out in writing. There should also be an appeals mechanism if the decision is a negative one. The fast-tracking procedure is helpful. We think that the costs associated with the Bill are, in fact, negligible.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
I do not want to detain the House unduly. We do not wish to vote against the motion, although I should say that the Bill is being proposed at rather an interesting time. Both Houses of Parliament spent an enormous amount of time debating the Localism Bill, to which many amendments were tabled but were rejected by the Government on the grounds that they would impose additional burdens and costs on local authorities. It seems odd, to say the least, to find that the Government support a Bill that will definitely place additional responsibilities and costs on local authorities. I also believe that, in this age of localism, the Government are displaying some extraordinarily centralising tendencies, on which the Minister may or may not wish to comment.
Robert Neill
At risk of prolonging proceedings, may I say that the hon. Lady will understand that the Government can support the Bill because the amendments, effectively mean that a local authority will be obliged in stating its reasons to put in writing the product of a process that it must have gone through in any event? We are simply asking authorities to record and set out what they will already be doing as a matter of good governance, so the costs and burdens are rather negligible.
Roberta Blackman-Woods
Well, that remains to be seen. I do not think it is a good idea to legislate on the basis of chance and hope.
It is important, however, that the Bill proceeds to be debated properly in Committee. There are an enormous number of health and safety issues, and Opposition Members are concerned to ensure that citizens are adequately protected. We are also concerned to ensure that extra burdens are not placed on local authorities, especially at a time when they are the subject of such stringent cuts from central Government. We think that is a most unfair approach.
We will not oppose the motion. We want the Bill to go into Committee for thorough discussion, but I must make it clear that that does not mean that we support its provisions in any way.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I am sorry that this debate is limited to 45 minutes, but I am delighted that the Government have moved this motion and that they support the Bill. The Minister might have confused someone following our proceedings when he said that the amendments made the Bill acceptable to the Government. My hon. Friend is jumping the gun, because the Bill before us is as printed; it has not yet been the subject of any amendments. It will be for the Committee to decide whether the Bill should be amended. In due course, if it goes through Committee and comes back here on Report, it will be for the House to decide whether the Bill is in a form that it can accept.
It is unfortunate that there has been such a significant delay between Second Reading on 18 March—consideration was not completed on that date, but the Bill received a Second Reading in June—and the subsequent period, during which we have been waiting for the money resolution. Without a money resolution, a Public Bill Committee cannot consider a private Member’s Bill that requires such a resolution or even to get the issue before the Committee of Selection. A Committee to look at the Bill cannot be set up unless the Government deign to introduce a money resolution.
It used to be the custom and practice that a money resolution for a private Member’s Bill that had been given a Second Reading would, as night follows day, be introduced by the Government within a short period thereafter, enabling the House to proceed with the Bill by setting up a Committee for its detailed consideration. What is happening now, however, and has been happening throughout this long first Session of the current Parliament, is that the Government are using their power in relation to money resolutions effectively to curtail the private Member’s Bill process. There have been times when not a single private Member’s Bill has been in Committee, because the Government have been using the money resolution procedure as, in effect, a veto.
As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am inherently supportive of my hon. Friend the Minister, and I do not want anything I am saying to be interpreted as being particularly critical of the Government. If they are indeed enthusiastic about the Bill, however, it is a pity that it will go into Committee, at best, shortly before the very last private Member’s day. It seems as though the Government are able to have the best of both worlds. They are able to say that they support the Bill, but by delaying the money resolution—although I accept that we are discussing it now—they are delaying its progress and implementation.
Today is something of a red letter day. This is my first private Member’s Bill that has secured a Second Reading, it is the first that will be given a money resolution—I am anticipating the House’s decision—and it will, I hope, be able to go into Committee. I am grateful to all my colleagues who have supported it. I am also encouraged by the fact that the Minister does not think that it will cost anything. He said in his speech that the motion was technical, and would not result in significant additional public expenditure. The whole purpose of the Bill is to reduce the burden of public expenditure and regulation on ordinary members of the public, and I should have been concerned if the resolution had been required in order to increase it significantly. I take the point made by the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) in that regard.
I am delighted that we have at last been given the chance to adopt a money resolution, and I hope that the motion will be carried without the need for a Division. I look forward to working with Members in all parts of the House in due course to establish whether the Bill can be improved in Committee in a way that will satisfy my hon. Friend the Minister, but he must not anticipate matters and assume that it has already been amended, because it certainly has not been.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
It is rather an unusual experience to hear the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) support a private Member’s Bill in the Chamber. He generally has another function in life: to prevent new rules and regulation contained in private Members’ Bills from being inflicted on people.
I want to raise two issues. First, discussing a money resolution relating to a Bill giving new powers to a person who does not currently exist is a slightly strange experience. I understand that there is no local government ombudsman at present, which is a matter of concern to me. The other day I received a letter from the permanent secretary at the Department for Communities and Local Government, Sir Bob Kerslake—in response to a letter I sent to the Secretary of State—which provided the helpful explanation that the process for appointing an ombudsman had been halted because the Government were reconsidering the nature and focus of the post in the light of last July’s public services White Paper.
We have all experienced appointment procedures in which the candidate was not deemed suitable, there was disagreement about the candidate, or we reviewed what the candidate should be doing in the light of the appointment process itself. That appears to be the case in this instance, but the difficulty is that the interviews for the post were held in February. The Select Committee on Communities and Local Government was due to hold hearings to ratify the appointment, but it was only in November that the Government decided to terminate the process. That is nine months of dealing completely inadequately with an appointment to an extremely important position.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. We are not here to discuss the Bill. We are just discussing the money resolution, which is rather narrow.
Mr Betts
Yes. I made my point about the ombudsman, because there are concerns about the delay to the service itself. Candidates have been waiting for nine months, and that is not an acceptable way of proceeding—I wanted to put that on the record.
I understand your strictures, Mr Deputy Speaker, about the money resolution and not discussing the Bill. However, I return to what the Minister said about not envisaging the measure costing anything to local authorities. There is potential for costs and the spending of extra money precisely because of the way in which the Bill is drafted and how it deals with the extension of powers relating to health and safety. It creates a relationship between the ombudsman and the local authority that is different from the relationship in any other matter that an ombudsman considers. On any other matter, the ombudsman can produce a report that an authority is bound to consider and tell the ombudsman what action it will take, but in this instance there is no requirement for the authority to act in line with the ombudsman’s recommendations.
As drafted, the Bill includes a clear right of redress for the ombudsman against local authorities, including the ability to compel them to pay compensation to event organisers for events that are unreasonably banned or restricted. That is where money comes in. The power that is granted in respect of that issue is different from the power in other issues with which the ombudsman deals. The power to spend the money does not rest with the local authority—it effectively rests with the ombudsman—so we are almost giving a blank cheque or an undetermined ability for the ombudsman to decide in any case how much the local authority should pay in compensation, with the cost to local council tax payers determined by an unelected official, rather than elected councillors.
That is a fundamental issue of public expenditure that the Bill, as drafted, opens up. The Minister may discuss amendments, but the promoter has said that the Bill has not been amended yet. As drafted, that is precisely what it would do, and I have serious concerns about it. The Minister cannot say that under the Bill as drafted there are no spending commitments, but he can say that there are potential spending commitments, which will be determined by unelected people. The counter-argument might be that, as the measure applies only to events that have been unreasonably banned there is a right for judicial review—in which case, why do we need the Bill? However, there is the potential for money to be spent.
Mr Betts
I am more than happy to accept the hon. Gentleman’s assurance—perhaps that is what the Minister was alluding to. However, it is rather difficult to debate the Bill as drafted when there are amendments of which we are not aware that would alter its capacity to incur public expenditure. That is what we are addressing and, on that point, I shall conclude.
Robert Neill
I thank the Members who have contributed to the debate, and I wish to set their minds at rest.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) for his comments. I am sure he agrees that he and officials from my Department have had a chance to hold constructive discussions in the time that has elapsed since the Bill was last before the House, and that he will therefore be able to propose amendments to which the Government will be happy to lend their support.
I also think the concerns of the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) about costs will be allayed. Although I am always loth to correct the hon. Gentleman, who is Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee, he will appreciate that the functions of the local government ombudsman, as we call that post, are legally carried out by the Commission for Local Administration in England, and while the post of chair of that commission is vacant, two commissioners are still in place, Dr Jane Martin and Ms Anne Seex, and Dr Martin is the acting chair of the commission so there is, effectively, a local government ombudsman in place and able to fulfil those functions.
Question put and agreed to.