Children in Gaza

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs what his Department is doing to ensure the lives and security of the children of Gaza.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, the best way to address the humanitarian situation is by ending the fighting as soon as possible. That is why I have repeatedly said that an immediate pause in fighting is necessary. UK aid is saving children’s lives. We are doing everything we can to get more aid into Gaza and have trebled our aid commitment to the Occupied Palestinian Territories. This includes targeted support for children through our £5.75 million contribution to UNICEF. Children are also benefiting from life-saving food, shelter and health support that we are providing through partnerships with other UN agencies, NGOs and the Red Crescent societies.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the noble Lord, but surely a pause in fighting is not enough. We need a permanent ceasefire now. Specifically, I am sure he is aware of the awful fate of six year-old Hind Rajab, calling for help in the midst of the bodies of her dead relatives, who appears to have died with two would-be rescuers from the Red Crescent. Have the Government demanded answers from the Israeli Government—or will they—about what happened to Hind, her family and the rescuers? Are the Government challenging the Israeli Government on the risks to hundreds of thousands of children in Rafah who are now in the path of the Israeli offensive? Surely it is time to stop all arms shipments to Israel, as a Dutch court has demanded that the Netherlands does, and implement targeted sanctions against members of the Israeli leadership, particularly those calling for new settlements in Gaza and on the West Bank.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks a number of questions. The case she raises is completely tragic, and what is happening in Gaza is tragic. We want an end to this suffering and killing. Let me make this point: we want to turn the pause we are calling for into a ceasefire, by making sure the conditions are right for getting a stop in the fighting to mean a permanent ceasefire. The way to do that is by fulfilling a number of conditions. In our view, you have to get the Hamas leaders out of Gaza—otherwise, any ceasefire will not last because the problem will still be there. You have to dismantle the operation of terrorist attacks. You have to have a new Palestinian Authority Government in place. You have to give the Palestinian people a political horizon to a better future and a two-state solution. Crucially, you have to release all the hostages—and do that very quickly.

The noble Baroness asks whether we challenge the Israeli Government over individual episodes. Yes, we absolutely do. I have done that personally with them, for instance, over a building that was bombed that had UK medics and other charities in it. We will continue to do that as part of the very important process that we go through to judge whether they are in compliance with international humanitarian law.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware of any moves by Hamas to protect the children of Gaza, for instance by releasing all the hostages, as he just mentioned, or stopping attacks on Israel and the leaders fleeing to the Gulf? Is he aware of any such moves? I agree with everything he said.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very good point. It is worth remembering that on 7 October, 29 children were killed by Hamas and 39 children were taken hostage and remain hostages today. It is right that we in this House keep asking what else Israel should do, but at the very same time we should also say what Hamas should do, which is to lay down its weapons and stop right now. It could stop this fight immediately.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

Is the noble Lord aware that the IDF has suggested that it is in no rush to enter into Rafah and will delay, possibly until after Ramadan? Meanwhile, the negotiations in Cairo can continue. That gives a chance for Hamas to release the hostages and for the conflict to stop.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

That is absolutely right. I believe those discussions are under way, and it is a great pity that they did not reach that conclusion the last time they were under way. As I said, the best outcome we could seek is an immediate stop in the fighting. Let us hope that the stop is for as long as possible. I think that Israel was content to offer a month or six weeks as a pause. Then we need the momentum to turn that pause into a permanent ceasefire, without a return to the fighting. That should be our goal but, crucially, the pause is necessary to get the aid in and the hostages out.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary referred to UNICEF—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Chief Whip. UNICEF has said today that 600,000 displaced children are in Rafah in Gaza. That is comparable to the entire under-12 population of Scotland being displaced to one postcode area. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that for any belligerent in a conflict to advise children and civilians to relocate, on the pretext of their safety, to an area where there is no shelter, water or medicine, and where there are no security guarantees, is a war crime?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I say to the noble Lord what I said yesterday in Scotland: many of the people in Rafah have already moved three, four or five times. It is not possible for them to move again. They cannot go north because they would be going back to homes that have been destroyed. They cannot go south because that would involve going into Egypt, which none of us wants to see and the Egyptians do not want. That is why it is so important that the Israelis stop and think before going ahead with any operations in Rafah.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, does the Foreign Secretary agree that the huge number of civilian casualties in Gaza is deeply damaging to the reputation of Israel? Will he therefore take action to promote a change of strategy by the Israelis, as well as the other measures he has mentioned? Thousands of civilians are being killed; that has to stop.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

Our view from the start has been that, while Israel has a right to defend itself and the attacks on 7 October were an appalling attack on Israel—it is worth remembering that it was the biggest pogrom since the Holocaust in terms of the loss of life of Jewish people; we should not forget that—and a tragedy that it had every right to respond to and try to prevent happening again, Israel must obey international humanitarian law. Let us be clear: not only does that involve what the IDF does in terms of the way it prosecutes this war but, as Israel is the occupying power in Gaza, it has to make sure that humanitarian aid—food, water and shelter—is available to people in Gaza. If Israel does not do that, it would be a breach of international humanitarian law as well.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary is right; the priority has to be securing an immediate, extended pause in fighting to ensure that we can get aid in and the remaining hostages out, and create room for a long-term, sustainable ceasefire, followed by an even longer-term resolution. There are currently almost 1.5 million displaced Palestinians in Rafah and it is the main route for humanitarian aid. Any further Israeli offensive in Rafah will be catastrophic. The situation is getting more urgent by the hour. I know the noble Lord has been working to establish a contact group of regional and international leaders who would influence both sides. Is he able to offer any progress on that group or its ability currently to influence events?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

At the Munich Security Conference on Friday, there will be a meeting of the key European countries that help to fund the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the key Arab and Gulf states working to help support a future Palestinian Authority. We very much hope that the Secretary of State of the United States will be there as well. This is not yet the formation of a contact group—a number of countries, particularly in the Arab world, are understandably nervous about meeting in advance of a proper ceasefire and a plan towards a cessation of hostilities—but I think we are on the way to getting this group, which the noble Baroness has long called for, up and running.

It is important, because there are lots of things that we need to start talking about now—what happens the day after a pause; a reconstituted Palestinian Authority; the question of how to offer a political horizon to people in the Palestinian territories; or indeed how to deal with Israel’s very real security concerns. If there is a pause and then a ceasefire, how do you make sure that the people responsible for 7 October cannot remain in Gaza and that the infrastructure of terror is taken down?

[Baroness Helic (Con)]

My Lords, alongside medical aid on the ground, one practical step the Government could take with an immediate impact would be to support medical care for children injured in Gaza on a temporary basis in the United Kingdom. I know that my noble friend and his department have been looking at this possibility. I would be grateful if he could update us on progress.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. It is called Project Pure Hope. We are looking very closely at whether it is possible to take the people in greatest need and bring them to British hospitals, as we have done in the past. The early work we have done shows that there is much we can do in the region, and we should probably do that first—for example, helping in the field hospitals that have been established, helping to send medical teams to referral hospitals in the region and supporting organisations such as Medical Aid for Palestinians. If that work leads to the identification of specific cases in which someone would be better off taking the long journey to Britain and going to Great Ormond Street or elsewhere, we certainly do not rule that out. We will continue to look at this.

Palestinian State: UK Recognition

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough]

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs what discussions he had with the government of the United States before his announcement on 1 February that the United Kingdom should recognise a Palestinian state in advance of the conclusion of any future bilateral talks between Israel and representatives of the Palestinian people.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, this Government have always supported a two-state solution, and that remains the case. Clearly, recognising a Palestinian state at the right time is part of that policy. My noble friend asked about consulting our allies. Of course, we discuss all issues relating to the conflict in Gaza, and Israel-Palestine relations, but I am pleased to tell him that ultimately the UK has a sovereign and independent foreign policy set by a British Prime Minister and a British Foreign Secretary in the British Parliament.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I welcome that Answer. Hamas is a genocidal terror group: for the benefit of the BBC, they are not militants. The Palestinian Authority has lost control of large cities in the West Bank to Iranian-backed terror groups, openly pays salaries to convicted terrorists, and is deeply corrupt and repressive. Palestinian statehood is, I trust, something all of us in this House wish to see, but does my noble friend share my very grave concerns that premature, unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state now risks rewarding Hamas, playing into Iran’s hands, and perhaps jeopardising the chances for a long-term, sustainable peace?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I absolutely understand where my noble friend is coming from. I just say to him that of course it is not rewarding Hamas. Hamas does not believe in a two-state solution: it believes in the destruction of Israel. My point is that the whole point of a two-state solution is to create long-term, sustainable peace. I think the last 30 years have shown that we will not solve this problem without a solution that gives dignity and security to the Palestinian people as well as vital security to Israel. I say, as a strong friend of Israel, that this is the right approach and we should pursue it.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury]

My Lords, I welcome very strongly the continued emphasis by the Secretary of State on the two-state solution, and his condemnation of the Hamas terrorist group and his call for the liberation of hostages, as was echoed in a statement this morning from the Bishops. But it is not only in Gaza that we are seeing tragedy; we are seeing it in the West Bank, where it is almost forgotten that very large numbers of Palestinians have been killed by people who live in illegal settlements. One of the countries most affected by that is the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. First, what support are His Majesty’s Government giving to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, given its vulnerability and its significant responsibility as guardian of the holy places? If it comes under significant pressure, that would widen the conflict appallingly and dramatically. Secondly, what are the practicalities for Jordan in preparing for or aiding a two-state solution, where the flow of refugees towards it—and it has taken something like half its population in refugees—would be a very threatening process for its destabilisation?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury for his question. First, he is absolutely right to say that we should focus on what is happening in the West Bank as well as Gaza. It is a chilling statistic that since 7 October, 96 Palestinian children have been killed in the West Bank. There have been a series of very worrying developments and disturbances. That is why the Government are focused on this. Only yesterday, we announced for the first time some sanctions against violent settlers who are carrying out criminal acts in the West Bank.

The most reverend Primate also asked, rightly, about what we are doing to help Jordan. First, in terms of the incredible work Jordan does in looking after refugees, we have given a huge amount of aid and assistance to help it with the job that it has done. As he says, the crucial thing is to work with the Jordanians, as we are, towards the two-state solution, in which they can play a very big part. A crucial thing that needs to be sorted out is how you move from the current Palestinian Authority, which has a number of issues and difficulties, to a new technocratic Government who would work across the Palestinian territories. The Jordanians can play a big role in helping to bring that about.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, there are 200 land-based conflicts in the world, half a million dead in Syria, the world’s biggest humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen, and millions slaughtered in Africa—yet the only conflict people in the UK seem to want to protest about is Israel defending itself against the racist, genocidal Islamists of Hamas. What does the Foreign Secretary think explains this irrational obsession with the world’s only Jewish state?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very important point. If you look across the world and ask yourself, “Where’s the biggest refugee crisis?”, it is not in Israel or in the Palestinian territories; it is either in Sudan, where about 9 million people have moved into Egypt, or you could argue that it is in Myanmar, where Bangladeshis are looking after millions of Rohingyas in very difficult conditions. It is important that we try to keep a focus on what is happening around the world and look at the numbers. That said, the reason people are focused on Gaza right now is the level of death and destruction, and people want to bring that to an end, as do I. This is why we have made this proposal for the immediate pause, moving to the ceasefire, with the five conditions we need to put in place to help to bring that about and work towards a political solution.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, after Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Hamas was elected to power. Having been elected to power, it proceeded to terrorise and then murder its political opponents. Hamas remains very popular in Gaza and in the West Bank. How can we prevent an independent Palestinian state from being governed by Hamas, maintaining its policy of seeking to attack Israel and to murder, rape and abduct as many Israeli citizens as possible?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord asks an extremely good question. We have to try to help to separate the Palestinian people from Hamas. One of the best ways of doing that, apart from making sure that, as I have said, our conditions should include the Hamas leadership leaving Gaza and the dismantling of the terrorist infrastructure, is to offer the Palestinian people—not Hamas, because it is not interested in a two-state solution—a route to better governance, with a reformed Palestinian Authority and the long-term horizon of a two-state solution to give them the dignity and security that they crave and that would help to bring about peace in the region.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, when the Foreign Secretary made the original statement, he was very clear that we need to show irreversible progress towards a two-state solution—something that both sides of this House have talked about for a long time. My right honourable friend David Lammy welcomed the Foreign Secretary’s comments, arguing that recognition should not wait for the final status agreement but should be part of efforts to achieve one. I asked the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, the day after those comments, what we are doing to translate the Foreign Secretary’s desire into discussions with our allies, particularly at the United Nations, and how we give that hope a sense of reality.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

What my noble friend Lord Ahmad and I are doing—we are virtually joined at the hip when we are not travelling separately to the region—is talking to all the partners in the region about how we work towards making that a reality. Recognition is obviously part of a two-state solution, and it should help with the momentum. The point that I have been making is that it should not be the first thing we do, as that would take the pressure off the Palestinians to reform and to do the things that need to happen in the Palestinian Authority. But just because it does not happen at the beginning does not mean that it must wait right until the end. One of the things that is beginning to change and that I think is hopeful is the American posture, which, until now, has been that recognition can come only when Israel and Palestine agree on the creation of a Palestinian state. Doing that would give Israel a veto, in effect, over a Palestinian state, which is the opposite of creating the sort of unstoppable momentum towards a two-state solution that we all want to see.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s comments on the flexibility of recognising the state of Palestine before there is a full agreement with the State of Israel. I declare that I will travel to Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Ramallah from tomorrow night. What message can the Foreign Secretary share with these Benches that I can take to those I will meet that he has persuaded like-minded countries and our allies, who have a long-standing view that recognising the state of Palestine before any long-term agreement is the best platform to get an agreement with Israel?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

After I made my statement, which is absolutely in line with our long-standing policy that recognition should come when it gives the maximum impetus and input to a solution, the Americans announced that they were re-examining their policy and looking at options to see how recognition could best play a part in bringing about a two-state solution.

AUKUS Security Partnership

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, AUKUS is an unprecedented partnership that is central to delivering security and prosperity for the UK and our partners in the Indo-Pacific and the Euro-Atlantic. We are making significant progress to deliver nuclear-powered submarines for the UK and Australia and are deepening co-operation on cutting-edge military technologies. We are breaking down barriers to defence trade and delivering benefits at home, securing £4 billion of contracts for British companies and generating thousands of jobs including in Derby and, I am pleased to say, Barrow-in-Furness.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. As he rightly says, this is a landmark security partnership that requires a sustained commitment from multiple Governments over years, indeed decades. What is the Foreign Secretary doing to ensure that the focus of his department and of the whole Government can remain on this despite the ongoing crises in other areas? In particular, how can he prioritise the diplomatic work needed to ensure that the US can make progress on ITAR reform that can enable the technological and industrial co-operation necessary to deter our common adversary?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

On how the Government co-ordinate this at a time where there are many distractions, I can say that the National Security Council is playing a role at bringing together all the ways that we can support Team Barrow to make sure that there is support for education, skills, housing, transport and all that will be needed to scale up this production effort as we go from 11,000 people employed building submarines to 17,000. On ITAR, which has been a troubling issue that British Governments have had to deal with for decades with American Governments, it is essential that AUKUS partners can trade freely between each other in defence equipment. I am pleased to say that we have made some real progress: I met Secretary Blinken in early December and on 22 December President Biden signed the US National Defense Authorization Act, which enables licence-free trade between the AUKUS countries, and we are working with the State Department on the technical details to make sure that really happens.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, are any other countries applying to join the AUKUS partnership? Are we thinking of applying to join the Quad—that is Australia, Japan, India and the United States? Will the UK attend the Perth conference on Indian Ocean security and defence, where all these issues tend to come together and will be discussed this summer?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

On the last point, I think I am right in saying that one of my ministerial colleagues will attend the Perth conference because it is very important. As my noble friend will know, AUKUS has two pillars. Pillar 1 is about the nuclear-powered submarines of Britain, Australia and America, and I do not think there will be additional partners in that. However, pillar 2 looks at advanced military technology for the future, and there we are open to the idea of other countries—possibly Canada, as people have mentioned, or Japan—which might want to join it because it is about defence equipment for the future. The point he makes about the Quad is very important. We would say that this is complementary to that activity.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, when AUKUS was first announced, the suggestion, at least from the MoD, seemed to be that somehow the United Kingdom had just slipped into an agreement with Australia over the nuclear submarines but clearly, as the Secretary of State has pointed out, there is also the wider aspect of AUKUS. Do His Majesty’s Government have a strategic approach to this? Are we simply waiting to see whether other countries such as Canada wish to join or are we actually planning what we want to do? Similarly, we have a trilateral agreement with Japan and Italy over fighter jets. Are we just being ad hoc or is there a real strategy here for our security?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

This is a deeply strategic approach. First, it fits into a tilt to the Indo-Pacific. Noble Lords can see we have signed the Hiroshima accord with Japan; we have a new status at ASEAN; we have very strong partnerships with India; and now we have AUKUS, which is a defence stature that puts us in with Australia and America in a very strategic way. In terms of the partners for pillar 2, we would welcome others to come but on each occasion we will have to ask, “What will they bring, is it the right thing, is it the right country and is it the right fit?” The strategic move of AUKUS is incredibly powerful.

[Lord Ricketts (CB)]

My Lords, speaking as another member of the club of those on Mr Putin’s blacklist, I welcome the AUKUS agreement but ask whether the Minister will accept that the handling of the French was pretty catastrophic? Does he accept that France is a major Indo-Pacific power and that now, when those bruises have perhaps healed somewhat, there is time to work with the French as well in the Indo-Pacific area, where they have a great deal to contribute?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point, which is that, ultimately, Britain and France should co-operate as closely as we can, because we are similar-sized powers with similar-sized militaries and global ambitions. That is what the Lancaster House agreement that he did so much to bring about was all about. What I would say to French partners now looking at this is that what AUKUS does for UK capacity is make sure that we replace the Astute submarines, which are incredibly high-tech and successful, with a new-generation AUKUS submarine—so the funding and the capacity are in place for that. We are assuring our future, and that is good for France because we can then talk with it about how it will secure the future of its submarine programme.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, nobody has yet mentioned China, so allow me to do so. Will my noble friend agree that it is important that we continue to talk with China and find as many areas, and expand on as many areas, of agreement as possible? But, in all this discussion, is it not possible to focus too narrowly on the threat of China? Should we not do more to embrace the democracies in Asia, such as Japan, India, Malaysia and South Korea? They are already more populous than China, are growing economically much faster than China and, in a few years’ time, will be far more economically powerful than China.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I very much agree with my noble friend. You can do both those things. It is important that we have a relationship with China. We have many disagreements, and it is an “epoch-defining challenge”, as the integrated review puts it, but, where we can find areas to progress discussions, we should. However, my noble friend is completely right to focus on the emerging democracies of the Far East, which is why I note not just AUKUS but the Hiroshima accord, the ASEAN relationship and the ministerial connections we have in Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam. I think I was the first ever serving Prime Minister to visit Vietnam, and I hope to go back soon.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, this security agreement is incredibly exciting. Without it, we would not be able to develop and get a sufficient number of nuclear submarines to replace the Astute class. For that reason, it is very important. Although the timescale looks long, we should pull teams together now in terms of how we will design and build that submarine because, if we do not, we will not do so in time. Also, because the Australians will have the Virginia class, the Americans will probably start doing a design instead.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord is completely right that we have to get on with it, which is why there is Team Barrow to bring together the town council, BAE Systems and the Government. A lot of money is being put in—£25 billion from the Government and a further £16 million of levelling-up money—to make sure we have not just the defence capacity but the physical capacity in the town and the people to do this. I am confident we can get this done. The Virginia-class submarines are being sold by the Americans to the Australians to help prevent them from having a gap. It is up to us to make sure we do not have a gap and that there is no break between our excellent Astute-class submarines—I am proud that most of them were built during my time in office as Prime Minister—and the AUKUS submarines that will follow.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, it was said by the Foreign Affairs Committee of another place that South Korea and Japan should be

“invited to join an AUKUS technological defence cooperation agreement”—

or pillar 2, which the noble Lord referred to in his initial reply. This was not just waiting on events; it urged us to invite them to join AUKUS, and I wondered whether he would give that recommendation further consideration. I will pursue the point made by his noble friend a moment ago. Bloomberg estimated that, if there were a blockade of the Taiwan Strait, it would cost the world economy some $10 trillion. Above and beyond AUKUS, what are we doing to deter the Communist Party of China?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

One of the things we are doing more generally is stressing the importance of freedom of navigation. That lies behind the action we are taking in the Red Sea and I hope to hold discussions with Chinese counterparts in days to come where we will ask them, given the importance of trade to China, to be as fully supportive of freedom of navigation as we are, because that matters wherever you are in the world, including the Taiwan Strait.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

Superficially, this sounds like very good news and I welcome it, but were there no voices at the National Security Council that spoke to caution at all in respect of risk and affordability? In terms of affordability, Team Barrow sounds quite expensive. Is this again going to be at the expense of the conventional programme of UK defence? In terms of risk, is there not a risk of leakage of our very small supply of very highly qualified people, who would rather follow their career paths in Fremantle than in Barrow?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I do not believe that the noble and gallant Lord’s concerns are right. The money going into Barrow is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of one submarine: as he well knows, these things come out at about £1 billion each. We need to make sure that Barrow, which has incredible manufacturing expertise, is fit to do this extra work that is going to be required as it scales up to 17,000 jobs. Are we going to benefit as a country? I would say absolutely yes. Rolls-Royce in Derby is going to be providing the nuclear reactors for these submarines—not just for the ones we use but also the ones Australia uses. This is good for our defence, good for our international relations and good for our industrial base.

Developing World: Debt Reduction

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs what recent discussions he has had with international counterparts on a strategy to reduce debt in the developing world.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, we set out our commitments on developing countries’ debt in our international development White Paper. The Treasury and FCDO regularly engage with international partners to address rising debt vulnerabilities in developing countries. The UK also co-ordinates with other official creditors to provide debt restructurings where needed, both at the Paris Club and via the G20 common framework.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, after Covid, we had the common framework from the international community. Sadly, only four countries have applied. Certainly, the situation is getting worse, and not better, in terms of debt. Does the noble Lord accept that a huge step forward would be to agree with global partners on a workable definition of debt sustainability to provide countries in debt distress a more level playing field?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. We are happy to accept the IMF definition of debt sustainability and to use it as a baseline. We are happy to look at other ideas but, given the IMF’s role, that makes sense. I completely accept what lies behind the noble Lord’s question: 58% of low-income countries are now either in debt distress or at risk of it, so he raises an important point. However, I think the definition is done by the IMF.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, climate change is already hitting the poorest the worst and the most, often in indebted countries. Although it is welcome that a loss and damage fund was agreed at the last COP, does the Foreign Secretary agree that what has been pledged so far—including, I am afraid, by the UK—is totally inadequate? Does he further agree that it is not only right to scale this up but in our interest, as we seek to reduce the conflict and migration that are likely to be caused by climate change, which will be much more costly?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

We have doubled our commitments to climate finance. One of the successes of COP was that the climate finance funds are now considerable, running into many billions. I identify the problem more as small countries, particularly island and developing states, not being able to access that money because they do not have the expertise, the lawyers, the bankers, the officials and so on. That is a problem that my officials are trying to solve. In the area of debt itself, the climate resilience debt clauses that we are now writing into debt, which give states a holiday from debt repayments if they suffer a climate disaster or some other unforeseen event, can be a big part of the future too.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that, through China’s belt and road programme, developing nations are estimated to be indebted to China to the tune of more than $1 trillion? Does he share the view of Parliament’s Intelligence and Security Committee that it would be naive not to see how such punitive debt in countries such as Sri Lanka—which is $47 billion dollars in debt, half to China—can be used by China to buy support in the UN, to expand its military presence and for leverage in domestic and international institutions? How are we countering this?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

One of the most important ways to counter it is by offering an alternative, so that when countries are developing there are other offers on the table. That is why the expansion of British International Investment—what used to be the Commonwealth Development Corporation—is so important. We are also countering it through the expansion of the multilateral development banks, and in our White Paper we demonstrate how we can expand their balance sheets and get them to lend more. However, the noble Lord makes a very good point: if we look back 10, 15 or 20 years, when we were running debt forgiveness programmes to help highly indebted countries, we see that it was mostly Paris Club countries such as France, Germany, Britain and America that were responsible for the debt, so if we wanted to write it off then we could. Now that so much of the debt owed is to China, which does not believe in debt write-offs, we have to find other ways of delivering restructurings to help those countries which have got into trouble.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, if we write off the debt of these developing countries, what is to stop them running up more debt in future?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

As ever, my noble friend makes a very good point. If we look back at the successful programmes that there were, such as the heavily indebted poor countries initiative, we see that they helped, but many of those countries have gone back into debt—although the situation is not as bad as it was before: the debt-to-GDP ratios in very indebted countries is some 60%, whereas it had got to 100%. One of the best things we can do for those countries is to help them to have better fiscal systems so they can raise their own taxes. I know that noble Lords like a Rwanda update: we have been working with that country since the 1990s and helped it to increase its tax revenue tenfold, and its ratio of tax to GDP has doubled from 8% to 16%, the highest in the region. That is a better thing to do in many instances than lending those countries money.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, a major reason for the indebtedness of developing countries is that too many multinational corporations operating in them dodge taxes by shifting profits to low-tax or no-tax jurisdictions. The IMF estimates that around $213 billion of taxes are lost each year. An earlier Prime Minister introduced the Finance Act 2016 and promised that companies would publish a public form of country-by-country reporting so that there would be some visibility of the profits shifted by UK companies, but later Governments never honoured that commitment. Could the Foreign Secretary have a word with the current leaders of the Government and try to revive that commitment?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I think that the noble Lord refers to what was agreed at the G8 in Northern Ireland in 2013, where a whole series of steps forward were made to make sure that companies were not doing what is known as base erosion and profit shifting and not paying their taxes in countries where they should. To be fair to the former Prime Minister, who is now the Foreign Secretary, we did make some progress, and I think the OECD would say that it has made a lot of progress, but I will certainly check up on the noble Lord’s point.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

On the question of Sri Lanka, will my noble friend recognise the way in which Her Majesty’s Government, to whom I give particular thanks, through the IMF, were very firm to the Government of Sri Lanka about what they should do? The Sri Lankan Government responded, which means that the people of Sri Lanka can now move forward. I believe that that is as good a case history as we will find in recent times.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right that Sri Lanka is in debt distress; it has been working through a programme with the IMF. We wish the new Government in Sri Lanka well as they go through this and try to make sure that they can build a brighter future for that country.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, in introducing the White Paper, Andrew Mitchell said that it cannot be right for individuals in this country to borrow money at 4% or 5%, while for developing countries that are addressing such huge issues, the cost of borrowing is so high. What discussions have the noble Lord’s officials had regarding private creditors holding low-income country debt? Does he agree that a fairer system is needed between private creditors and countries in debt distress?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

First, I congratulate the noble Lord on joining a club of which I am a member, in being personally sanctioned by Vladimir Putin. It is a badge I wear with honour, and I am sure he will too.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

That is news to me.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord is in very good company—I follow these things very closely.

The noble Lord is absolutely right about the importance of making sure that we do not have so many private sector holdbacks that hold up the vital debt restructuring of countries that get into trouble. We are trying to use things such as collective action clauses that work on bond issues—so they cannot hold out against repayment —as well as the majority voting provisions in new debt issuances so that private sector lenders are not stopping a country getting the debt restructuring they need.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I agree with the Foreign Secretary about increasing the capacity of Governments’ treasuries and their finance ministries to collect their own revenues, as well as trade facilitation, so that those trade ministries have greater capacity to trade out of poverty. I declare an interest as the co-chair of the All-Party Group on Trade out of Poverty. Does the Foreign Secretary believe that it was a mistake by some of his predecessors to cut UK support for exactly those processes? Since he is now passionate about this, and I agree with him, will he restore that funding?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

One of the great things that was done while I was out of government is one of the Government’s best-kept secrets, the developing countries trade system, which is more generous to the poorest countries in the world than the EU or the US. It is one of the most generous systems in the world, so in terms of helping countries to trade out of poverty, this Government have an excellent record.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

Further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, surely we now need to double down on opportunities to sign bilateral trade treaties with different countries, in sub-Saharan Africa in particular. If they can increase their wealth through trade, obviously they will be able to pay off their debt in the future. Can my noble friend say something about those bilateral trade treaties that we are now able to sign post leaving the EU?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

My noble friend asks an important question about how we prioritise the trade deals that we are trying to do. For the poorest countries, the DCTS—the Developing Countries Trading Scheme—is there. Our priorities in terms of trade deals are with India and the Gulf Cooperation Council, which are very complex and need a lot of work. I think that is the right way round.

Rules-based International Order

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti]

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs what steps he is taking to champion a rules-based international order.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, an open and stable international order is in our interest. We use it to deliver on issues of domestic and global importance, such as the Bletchley AI safety declaration. We invest in it, as the fifth-largest UN budget contributor. We support reform of it to ensure that it benefits everyone, and we hold to account those who undermine it, including through steadfast support to Ukraine, sanctions against Russia and ensuring maritime security in the Red Sea. In a dangerous and uncertain world, this stable international order is more essential than ever.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for the clarity of that Answer on the importance and scale of his task. I wonder whether that task was helped or hindered by two developments yesterday. The first was fresh advice from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees that the Rwanda scheme, now updated by the Rwanda treaty and the safety of Rwanda Bill, is still contrary to international law. The second development was comments by the Prime Minister on GB News that the Court of Human Rights is a “foreign” court and that he is prepared to defy it.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

We do not believe that the Rwanda scheme is contrary to international law. I would characterise it by saying that things like the refugee convention were written for another age, when there was not mass international travel or the ubiquity of mobile phones. We are saying that, yes, this is out-of-the-box thinking and it is quite unorthodox, but you have a choice, frankly: when you have people arriving from a perfectly safe country into another safe country, you have to deal with that trade. That requires some fresh thinking. It is not possible to put people straight back in a boat and take them back to France, which is why the Rwanda scheme is being introduced. It is within the law and it is novel, but I believe it can work.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, as many feel that the whole international rule of law is collapsing before our eyes and as my noble friend has rightly remarked that this is a very dangerous and fragile international situation, does he agree that it will be coped with only by new international organisations and institutions or by brushing up the present set of them? Can he share his thoughts on where the priorities in that process should be? Should we concentrate on repairing the United Nations, which is in a mess, or invent new structures in that respect, as the noble Lord, Lord Owen, just suggested? Might the Commonwealth, by far the largest network of voluntary, like-minded nations in the world, have an important role in building up a future structure to deal with all these crises?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

My Lords, that is an excellent question but difficult to answer. Fundamentally, we are in almost all these networks—we are in the G7, the G20 and the OECD, we are the fifth-biggest contributor to the UN and a permanent member of the Security Council—so we should be quite thoughtful and selective about where we think institutions can be strengthened. A good example of that is NATO; it is undoubtedly stronger than it was two, four, six, eight or 10 years ago, which is a very good thing. Some organisations you could spend the rest of your political life trying to reform but struggle to make progress—I might put the United Nations in that category. We should use what we have and make it work as well as we can, but we should also look at new institutions when there is a specific problem, such as Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance, which does amazing work that we should get behind. I am a practical conservative; I do not have an all-encompassing, global set of rules that we must abide by. Let us take what we have and, where we can, improve it.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has been engaged in the enlargement of the UN Security Council. Can he update us on the progress of that, including the system of penholders? Also, when nations fail in their most important task of protecting the safety and security of their people, civil society is often the first to come to their defence. Guterres and the UN have encouraged the involvement of civil society in the Security Council. What does the noble Lord think about that and will he do more to support the Secretary-General in engaging with civil society?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I certainly support engaging with civil society at the United Nations Security Council, as we have been doing. I will look very carefully at what Secretary-General Guterres has said. We support United Nations Security Council reform—India should be a permanent member and we need to look at the representation of Africa—but, candidly, in trying to make progress in these reforms, this will be a very difficult one on which to get unanimity. In this difficult, dangerous and disputatious world, the most important thing is to ask what we can do to strengthen our networks, NATO and our defence, security and intelligence forces to keep us safe at home and to ask through which institutions we can get things done. That is my priority. Although I support United Nations Security Council reform, it might be some time coming.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I think the Foreign Secretary said to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, that Rwanda is a “perfectly safe country”. If that is the case, why do we still grant asylum to people coming from Rwanda? He suggested that international refugee law is rather out of date, implying that if a law comes from a different age then it can be ignored. Is that really the inference that he wanted to leave with the House?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

No. I am saying that in the modern world, where you have the ubiquity of mobile phones and mass cheap travel, countries have to make a decision about how to deal with illegal migration. I will be very frank with the noble Baroness: I do not think that we can tolerate a situation where there is very wide-scale, visible illegal migration taking place in small boats. It is not only desperately dangerous and unsafe for the people who do it—another four people lost their lives in the freezing cold waters of the English Channel the other night—but it completely undermines faith in our immigration system. As I said, all these people are coming from a totally safe country, France.

You have a choice in politics. You can say—and I do not want to get too political, because I know that is not the way of this House—that you are going to work on dealing with the criminal gangs and work on more agreements with France. I agree with all those things. However, ultimately, if you do not say to the people who come in the boats that they cannot stay here because they came illegally, you will not stop this trade and you are not going to save those lives. This Government have made a choice: that is what we are going to do. Yes, it is complicated; yes, it is expensive; yes, in the case of Rwanda, is it out-of-the-box thinking. However, it is the right thing to do because, if you do not do it, you will carry on with the problem.

It is not just Britain that has this issue. Some 6 million people have crossed the southern border in the United States. Country after country in Europe is looking at novel thinking for how to deal with illegal immigration. We have to do that, because otherwise we will have a system which will have no public confidence.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, one of the best ways that the UK could stand up for a rules-based international order would be to do all we can to secure the release of Vladimir Kara-Murza, the British citizen incarcerated on trumped-up charges by Putin. Will the Foreign Secretary agree to an urgent meeting with me, his wife Evgenia Kara-Murza and those campaigning for his release?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I think I am right in saying that a meeting has already been arranged and is in process. I do not know whether the noble Lord will be joining us, but it would be a pleasure to get together after all these years.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, in furtherance of a rules-based society, I suggest to my noble friend that it would be desirable if he could promote a coalition of willing states to reinforce the efforts of the United States and the United Kingdom to ensure safe navigation in international seas. We need a coalition of willing nations to participate.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

Obviously no one likes a coalition more than I do.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

We do have a coalition of not only those countries taking part in Operation Prosperity Guardian in the Red Sea, but all those countries supporting it. Again, even when it came to the military action, there was a coalition of countries—including the Dutch, Canada and Australia—backing us militarily, and a wider coalition of countries supported the action taken. Wherever possible, we should build a coalition, but sometimes it is necessary to act quickly, and I think the Prime Minister made the right decision.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, how does a rules-based international order sit with the destruction of the Sino-British treaty, an international treaty, which has led to the dismantling of democracy and of “one country, two systems” in Hong Kong? How does it sit alongside the show trials of Jimmy Lai, a British citizen, and the naming in those proceedings of four other British citizens, including our former consul-general Andrew Heyn? Surely that in turn is a breach of the Geneva convention. Why have the Government not yet done anything to use Magnitsky sanctions against any of those who have been responsible for these things?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

One of the reasons for supporting a rules-based order is that it enables you to call out other countries when they fail to live up to it. That is exactly what we have done in the case that the noble Lord refers to. That is why we have said that the national security law needs to be taken out, and that is why we have said that Jimmy Lai needs to be released. We have been very clear about that and how we do not think that it is in line with the arrangements that were put in place when the Hong Kong agreement was reached.

UN Sustainable Development Goals

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK was instrumental in developing the sustainable development goals. Following the global recommitment to the SDGs at the United Nations General Assembly last autumn, we recognise the opportunity to reinvigorate a sense of collective purpose and partnership to deliver those goals. The international development White Paper sets out a re-energised agenda for the UK, working with partners, to accelerate progress on the SDGs by 2030. We will champion the SDGs throughout the key summits and meetings this year, and I will be making a speech on the SDGs in Davos tomorrow.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I very much welcome that last comment. Of course, one barrier to progress is debt. The average low-income country now spends 2.3 times more on servicing debt than on social assistance. At the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, the Minister stressed the importance of cross-Whitehall working to address priority areas, and debt is one of those areas.

One of the mechanisms that the UN adopted for monitoring progress on the SDGs is voluntary national reviews. We had our last one—our only one—in 2019. Spain is due to publish its third, Argentina its fourth, but what are we doing? Can the Minister explain why we have not followed that example and used the voluntary national reviews?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I very much agree with the noble Lord on the important position regarding debt and what needs to be done to help countries to relieve their debt. I do not necessarily think the answer is always to cancel debt, because in many cases that affects a country’s credit rating, but we support things such as climate resilient debt clauses and the flexibility they give.

On voluntary national reviews, we had one in 2019, as the noble Lord knows, but we have not made a decision about a follow-up. I say to him: look, it is not really Britain that is the problem in meeting the SDGs. What has happened here is that, because of Covid and Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, African countries have had a triple whammy. They have had the whammy of Covid, the whammy of higher fuel prices and the whammy of higher food prices. That has caused an increase in poverty and set the SDGs off track. We have to energise the world—the voluntary sector and, crucially, the private sector—to invest in the future of the SDGs and get us back on track.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, instead of going on with slogans such as “Stop the boats” and gimmicks such as deportation to Rwanda, is not the best way to help to reduce illegal migration to see increased assistance to these countries to make it possible for the people who have to migrate, who are forced to leave their countries, to live there in peace and prosperity?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I certainly half agree with the noble Lord: the investment that we can put into the countries from which the migrants are coming is essential. We have to ensure that countries in north and sub-Saharan Africa are building a future for their own people and providing jobs; otherwise, those people will be on the move. The figures are outstanding: the population of Europe in 1950 was twice that of Africa, but by the end of this century the population of Africa will be four times that of Europe. So making sure that those countries develop is crucial but, at the same time, when you have problems of widespread illegal immigration, it is important to stop the boats.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Foreign Secretary not take another look at the issue of debt forgiveness that he spoke rather critically of just now? In previous iterations of this saga, we have recognised in the end that debt forgiveness was necessary for some of the poorest countries. Could he not look at that again, as well as whether we could link it with the commitment by a country that was forgiven its debt to do more on climate change?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I respect the noble Lord and what he says. We have been leaders on this through the Paris Club and other mechanisms; in many cases it has been the right thing to do to write down a country’s debt. With respect to climate change, these climate resilient debt clauses can make a great difference in helping these countries. Fundamentally, if we want to achieve the SDGs, we need to motivate global finance, and one of the ways that we can do that is through the multilateral development banks because if they expand their balance sheets there is probably an extra £400 billion that they can invest to help these countries with their growth.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary has said he thinks that the merger of DfID and the Foreign Office, and the cuts in aid, were justified; that was not what he said at the time. How much does he regret that his successors have trashed his proud legacy and, more to the point, how assured can he be that the funding for Africa, which is still being cut even if an increase has been promised, will not be diverted to the Home Office, as has happened in the last two years?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

That is not exactly what I said. I am very proud that we reached 0.7%. I had some disagreements with this Government before I joined but politics is a team enterprise; when you decide to join a Government, you accept Cabinet collective responsibility and you accept you are going to work with that team and the policies they have. I am proud that, with 0.5% and a growing economy, we are seeing more money going to overseas development. Now that the refugee crisis is abating—I mentioned Africa—we will see, in our budgets, an increase from £600 million to over £1.2 billion, and we are committed, when the fiscal rules allow, to get back to the 0.7% that we historically achieved.

[Lord Boateng (Lab)]

My Lords, the biggest threat to the SDGs in Africa is conflict and internal instability. In the Sahel, this has increased ever since the disastrous Libyan incursion that the Foreign Secretary will remember very well. What steps does he personally intend to take to enhance security and democracy in sub-Saharan Africa, and will that include aid to civil society organisations?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right that if you look at the SDGs and poverty more generally, half of the poorest people in the world are now in fragile states. If we cannot help to fix fragile and conflict-affected states, we will not meet the SDGs. If you look across the Sahel, there have been a number of coups and wars and a lot of instability, so I do not think there is a single answer to this, but one of the issues, when we look at aid and development and how we help these countries, is how making sure that they have adequate security is essential. Often in this House, or in the other place, we say that defence is the first duty of a Government, but when it comes to aid, we set up a whole series of different things that we think countries ought to achieve. We must help them with their fundamental and basic security, and that is something we are committed to doing.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

Some 60% of the population of sub-Saharan Africa are smallholder farmers, and most of them are women. Food from domestic resources is crucial for reaching many of these SDG goals: poverty; hunger; health; management of water; even education, because these lady farmers put nearly every penny they make from their food production into educating their children. Will the noble Lord please undertake—and I ask as one Lord Cameron to another—to boost the currently small team in his department that is involved in agriculture to enable them to help these lady farmers to feed their families and their nations and resolve many of these sustainable development goals?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I will certainly take away what the noble Lord said and look at it carefully. In history, it is true that a green revolution of productivity in agriculture has almost always been necessary to see more of an industrial revolution and an increase in prosperity. But the noble Lord made a good point about small farmers—as we should keep it in the family, I had better go and have a careful look at it.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)]

My Lords, the sustainable development goals included volunteering this time. As Prime Minister, the noble Lord really supported volunteering and introduced the International Citizen Service, which was run by VSO in this country incredibly successfully, so that the African Union then took it up as a major way of engaging the millions of young people in Africa whom he talked about. But a generation of young people in this country, and in the countries that organisations such as VSO work in, has missed out. Can he assure me that volunteering will now play a central part in the Government’s strategy to re-energise the achievement of the sustainable development goals and to do something to enable young people, here, in Africa and around the developing world, to get the skills and leadership that they need?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

One of the great strengths of the SDGs was that they were much more comprehensive than the millennium development goals that they replaced. In fact, I helped to chair the panel that set them up, and we were determined that we would involve the private sector, bring together economic growth and climate, have much more to say about gender, and, as the noble Baroness rightly said, make sure that things such as volunteering were included. I am glad she mentioned the International Citizen Service, which I was proud to establish as Prime Minister. My International Development Secretary was Andrew Mitchell; the noble Baroness will notice that he and I are now back in the same department, and we hope to make some progress on this issue.

Israel and Gaza

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Janke is unwell. With her permission, and on her behalf, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, we support a ceasefire, but this must be a sustainable ceasefire that will last and prevent another generation living under the constant threat of war. That must mean that Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza, able to threaten Israel with rocket attacks and other forms of terrorism. Ahead of a permanent ceasefire, we want to see immediate and sustained humanitarian pauses to allow hostages to leave and more aid to enter Gaza, helping to create the conditions for a durable peace. As I said at the weekend, we would like to see such a pause start right now.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Foreign Secretary for his reply, and I agree with most of it. However, these Benches have for a number of weeks called for an immediate bilateral ceasefire, beyond a truce, which would allow hostages to be returned, bombing to stop and, of course, vital lifesaving aid to be secured. Why have the Government failed so far to persuade the Israeli Government to allow much greater access for the humanitarian aid that is needed? There are 1.9 million displaced people, many of whom are now facing famine. We now know that, when it comes to civilian casualties, this is the most deadly conflict in the 21st century. The UK will need to increase its support of humanitarian assistance, but it cut that from £107 million to £12 million between 2019 and 2023. I support the increase in aid but, surely, there will need to be an increase of the cap of 0.5% if we are to do our bit and ensure that aid is increased.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

First, I would say to the noble Lord that we have trebled the amount of aid that we are putting into Gaza. I very much take on board what he says about the pressure we need to put on not just the Israeli Government but other Governments in the region to get more aid in. Right now, as we speak, nine out of 10 people in Gaza are living on less than one meal a day. It is that serious. That is why I have had repeated conversations with the Israelis and set out a whole series of bottlenecks that need to be relieved. We need Kerem Shalom open all the time. We need the Nitzana checkpoint open all the time. I would like to see the port of Ashdod opened in Israel so that aid can get into the country through maritime routes and more swiftly into Gaza.

Crucially, we will not see more aid get to the people who need it unless the United Nations inside Gaza has the vehicles, the people and the fuel to get it around. Those permissions need to be given. I have had these conversations most recently this morning with the new UN aid co-ordinator, who I am confident will do an excellent job. We will keep up the pressure for this, because, as I have said, an immediate pause to help get that aid in and to help get hostages out is essential.

[Lord Owen (Ind SD)]

Will the Foreign Secretary consider very seriously creating a UN protection force for humanitarian relief? That was done successfully in the winter of 1992 in a very difficult situation, with no ceasefire, in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I recommend that approach. Although a ceasefire is essential, it is not in the immediate future very likely, but the humanitarian crisis is getting worse every day. They cannot get relief in without some form of protection from UN forces.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I take what the noble Lord says, as a former Foreign Secretary, extremely seriously. What would make a difference is if Israel recognised its responsibilities for making sure that food, medicine and supplies have to be delivered to people in Gaza, and if it recognised that you need the UN staff who have the visas, the equipment and the fuel to help get it around. I will certainly take away the suggestion that the noble Lord makes, but the calculation here is quite simple. Before the conflict, some 500 trucks were going into Gaza every day. I check the figures every single day; we are up to about 150 trucks at the moment. That is not enough. The longer it goes on, the greater the risk of people going hungry and the greater the risk of disease and this humanitarian crisis getting worse. A pause would help, because there is no doubt that it would be easier to get food and other forms of aid in. It would also be very good to make some progress on the hostages, families of whom I met this morning.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary makes an alarming point: that within Gaza nine out of 10 Palestinians are not even getting a single meal every day. The need for a sustained ceasefire is absolutely clear as a first step towards getting humanitarian aid in. The Government confirmed last week that currently there are no plans for RAF aid flights or deliveries by the Royal Navy. Can he say why that is? Surely that would be a good way of getting aid in and trying to get around some of the problems that we have at the moment.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

We are looking at every single way of getting aid in. Of course, there are maritime options, and we had a ship leaving Cyprus and taking aid to Port Said in Egypt. The so-called over-the-beach option of trying to land aid in Gaza is extremely difficult for reasons of operational security and other forms of security. On dropping aid by air, the French and Jordanians did so recently, but it was less aid than you would get into one truck. The truth is that the best way to get aid into Gaza is through trucks. As I said, 500 are needed, 150 are happening, and if you opened up Kerem Shalom seven days a week, if you had the Nitzana checkpoint open 24/7 and if you had the people inside Gaza, there would be plenty of aid. There is no shortage of aid and no shortage of countries prepared to make the financial commitment. In the end, trucks are faster, and it is trucks that we need.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, women and children are always disproportionately affected by conflict. The UK considers itself a global leader on the women, peace and security agenda and holds the pen for this at the UN Security Council. Why are we not hearing from women’s groups? After all, they were integral in bringing peace in both Northern Ireland and Liberia.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

It is very important that we hear from everybody. One of the things that I do with the responsibilities of the aid and development portfolio that is now squarely within the Foreign Office is to make sure that we listen to all the NGOs, all the experts and all the people who can make a difference when it comes to getting aid in and trying to relieve this desperate humanitarian situation.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

When the Foreign Secretary said

“I am worried that Israel has taken action that might be in breach of international law”,


did he have in mind the principle of proportionality in armed conflict and whether it is a proportionate self-defence by Israel to have been responsible so far for some 24,000 Palestinian deaths, including 10,000 children?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

What I meant when I said that was simply that I worry about these things. It is my job to worry. The Foreign Office has a job, which is to look at the legal advice and work out whether Israel is committed to, and capable of complying with, international humanitarian law, and then, based on that judgment, we have to take a series of actions, including looking at things like export licences. We always urge Israel to obey international humanitarian law, and it is important that we do so.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

Is it not the case that there would be an immediate ceasefire tomorrow if Hamas were to release the hostages and lay down its weapons, and if the criminals who did atrocities on 7 October were to go and join their leaders in luxury hotels in the Gulf?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point, which is that Hamas could end this tomorrow by saying that it was going to lay down its weapons or leave. Everyone is aware that we want a sustainable ceasefire. That means Hamas not in power and not able to launch rockets and terror, and we have said we want to see an immediate pause so we can get aid in and hostages out. However, in many ways, the very best outcome would be to see whether we could convert that immediate pause for aid and hostages into a sustainable ceasefire without further hostilities. But for that to happen, a series of other things would have to happen: there would have to be immediate negotiations to release all the hostages, the Hamas leadership would have to leave Gaza, and we would have to be clear that there was no more danger of rocket and terror attacks on Israel. We would have to put together something based on the Palestinian Authority, backed by other Palestinians, going back into Gaza. In many ways, that would be the best outcome, but if we call now for an immediate ceasefire with no further fighting when Hamas is still in power, still launching rockets and still capable of launching terror attacks, not only would we not have a sustainable ceasefire and peace but we would have no hope of the thing that I think many in this House would like to see, which is a two-state solution.

Rohingya Refugees

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs what steps he is taking to address the Rohingya Refugee crisis.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, since 2017, we have provided more than £373 million in funding for Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh and more than £30 million for Rohingya and other Muslim minorities in Myanmar. In December, at the Global Refugee Forum, we announced an additional £7 million for Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh and for the Myanmar humanitarian crisis. We also reiterated our commitment to finding a long-term solution to the crisis, including the safe, voluntary and dignified return of the Rohingya to Myanmar when conditions there allow.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I am grateful for all that His Majesty’s Government have been doing to support the victims of this terrible humanitarian crisis. However, UK aid to the Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh has actually declined by about 82% since 2019-20. In the past year, Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh have suffered flooding, cyclones and fires, and cuts in food rations, simply because of reductions in aid. Just two weeks ago, 800 dwellings in Cox’s Bazar were destroyed by a fire. In the light of this terrible humanitarian crisis that we are observing, what other resources can His Majesty’s Government offer to try to address this dreadful problem?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate is entirely right about the scale of this crisis. There are 1 million Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh—think of the scale of that—with people often living in IDP camps and other temporary accommodation. I do not deny for a moment that the scale of funding has gone down. That is the same with many aid programmes, because of the move from 0.7% to 0.5%. Crucially, it is due also to the diversion of a lot of aid money to support refugees from Ukraine and Afghanistan, which I think was entirely the right thing to do. We will be spending another £20 million next year. To put it in context, Britain’s contribution has been almost twice as much as the EU’s over the past seven years. We are playing our role to make sure that this is not the forgotten crisis.

[Baroness Nye (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of the Burma Campaign UK. All leaders of the Rohingya community associations have led calls for the British Government, as the penholder on Burma at the UN, to take action. If the British Government are not going to convene a meeting of the UN Security Council to address the failing of the Burmese military to take measures as instructed by the ICJ to prevent further ongoing genocide against the Rohingya, what action are the Government taking to ensure a level of protection for the Rohingya remaining in Myanmar?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right: we are the penholder, and we take that duty very seriously. We have taken a range of action on this. Fundamentally, we are making sure that aid is going in—and I have just said what our contribution has been—and, secondly, that proper authorities are put in place to stop gender-based violence, collect evidence from the camps and make sure that people are held accountable. The third part of the strategy must be to put pressure on the Government to recognise that this country needs to have proper provision for all its ethnic minorities and parts, and to make sure that there is, effectively, a peace process and a more inclusive set of arrangements for the country, so that everyone can feel that they have a part in its future. Ultimately, no one wants the Rohingya to have to stay in Bangladesh; they should be able to go home.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary’s response to the right reverend Prelate indicated that funds have been diverted to the Ukraine resettlement scheme away from other schemes. I have asked in this Chamber, time and again, whether funds to support the Ukraine resettlement scheme in the UK have been diverted from other areas. Ministers have denied that, so can the Foreign Secretary clarify that point on the record? Secondly, the UK has been a refuge for many Rohingya who have sought asylum here under the Gateway Protection Programme. This was closed in 2020. On Friday, the Home Office’s Report on Safe and Legal Routes said that there are no safe and legal routes that the Rohingya would be able to apply for. Can the Minister assure me that, if any Rohingya is seeking refuge in the UK through a proper asylum application but is undocumented, they will not be detained and sent to Rwanda under his new scheme?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

First, let me clarify the point I made. Obviously, the ODA budget qualifies to pay for refugees from Ukraine, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Effectively, what happened over previous years was not only that the budget moved from 0.7% to 0.5% but that some of it was taken up, quite rightly, by ODA spending on looking after people from Ukraine and Afghanistan. We can now see that the overseas aid budget being spent overseas is actually increasing. For instance, when it comes to Africa, next year the budget will be almost doubling, to well over £1 billion. On what we want to see with the Rohingya, clearly there is a huge refugee crisis. They are being looked after in Bangladesh. Ideally, when circumstances are right, they will be able to go home. In between now and then, I think we should learn the lesson of the Syrian refugee crisis, where we did a lot to help countries such as Lebanon and particularly Jordan to make sure that people were able to stay there, work there and build livelihoods there, and then, when it is possible, go home.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, looking specifically at the point the right reverend Prelate raised about the plight of the refugees in Cox’s Bazaar in Bangladesh, will the Minister look again at what happened only last week, when 5,000 of those refugees were displaced from the shacks and tents in which they had been living as a result of a fire? The Minister invited us to look at the longer term. I reinforce what the noble Baroness, Lady Nye, said about the International Court of Justice, which has imposed interim provisional measures on the Burmese military, with the support of the British Government, which is extremely welcome. Will he raise at the Security Council the failure to implement that and will he have discussions with the National Unity Government about the long-term rights of the Rohingya, the Kachin, the Karen and the other ethnic and religious minorities? That is the fundamental issue: if someone is not an equal citizen in the new Burma that will emerge after the coup, nothing will change.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

Fundamentally, the noble Lord is completely right about the interim measures which have been set out by the International Court of Justice. It is incumbent on the Government of Myanmar to make sure they are put in place and to abide by them. The noble Lord made the general point that what is required is an inclusive, federal state, where every ethnicity and every nationality can feel it has a part to play in the country and that it will benefit from the country’s resources. Obviously, we have this military Government, with whom we have very limited contact, but for the long-term future of Myanmar, that is the only answer.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I think the Minister will understand that the House does not find his answers completely satisfactory. He has said that it is the responsibility of the Government of Myanmar, and he knows that action is not being taken. The range of actions he has outlined seem to be around data collection and putting pressure on the Government. As the penholder in the Security Council on this issue, there is a special responsibility on the British Government. Is he able to say what discussions he has had with other members of the Security Council about putting pressure on the Government? Otherwise, nobody is going to be held to account for the crisis which has emerged.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right that we take our responsibilities very seriously. We have those discussions at permanent-member level of the UN Security Council. I will personally take this up with Barbara Woodward, our excellent permanent representative, to see what more can be done over the coming period. Fundamentally, we have set out what we think is necessary: the aid to go in, the accountability to be in place and the pressure for a long-term solution, and, at the same time, the Government obeying the interim measures set out by the ICJ.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, the failure of the international community to deal with the attempted genocide in Myanmar against the Rohingya is just one example of the failure of the responsibility to protect norms over the course of the past decade in so many places. What are the Government doing to reinvigorate the discussion on responsibility to protect at the United Nations and ensure that there is a refreshed approach to this in place that will help protect citizens who are under attack from their own Government, legitimate or otherwise?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The issue of the responsibility to protect is one we have taken forward and discuss with allies and partners. It is developing a doctrine, as it were. When it comes to this issue, we have a role; we are making a contribution and we are, I think, doing more than many countries of our size and scale. I think that there is a lot we should do to sort support ASEAN. It has set out its five principles for dealing with Myanmar, which we support, and has a co-ordinator from Laos who we want to work with. Ultimately, we should respect the fact that, in its region, ASEAN should take the lead on this issue and we can support where we can.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, on or about 28 December, it was widely reported that Indonesia had pushed back a boat containing a significant number of Rohingya refugees out of its territorial waters. I have not been able to find any report of what has happened since to the people on that boat. Would the Minister agree that that is absolutely unacceptable behaviour, out of line with international law? Have the Government made, or will they make, any representations on this to Indonesia? Do we not have to make sure that refugees are safe?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I am not aware of that report; I will certainly go away and look into it. What we would say is that Bangladesh should be praised for the role that it is playing in taking quite so many refugees. Obviously, there are huge pressures—there are worries about conditions in the camps and whether there is enough food—but, ultimately, Bangladesh is looking after a million people, and that is why we are supporting it to the extent that we are. Every country should take its responsibilities towards refugees very seriously.

Taliban Relations and Afghan Refugees

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness D’Souza]

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs whether he has plans to develop formal relations with the Taliban, and whether he has made representations to the Government of Pakistan about the deportation of Afghan refugees.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, the situation with respect to Afghanistan is very difficult. My officials engage with the regime on priorities, including humanitarian access, without conferring any legitimacy on the Taliban. We are reviewing the recommendations of the UN special co-ordinator’s report to support the Afghan people and improve international relations. Specifically on the question of Pakistan’s deportation of Afghan refugees, we do not support these actions. I met with the Pakistan Foreign Minister on Friday, in Dubai, and raised this question with him. Pakistan has a history of welcoming vulnerable refugees, and we will continue to urge its Government to respect the human rights of all Afghans.

[Baroness D’Souza (CB)]

I thank the Foreign Secretary for his Answer. The lack of recognition of the Taliban authority has inadvertently provided the Taliban and Pakistan with unrestricted freedom and influence over policies in Afghanistan. The current concern, as the noble Lord pointed out, is the enforced resettlement of thousands of refugees from Pakistan to Afghanistan. The Taliban policy of relocating Shia minorities in Sunni areas has dangerous implications. What measures, including further negotiations with the Pakistan Government, can the UK Government take to avert potential religious and other conflicts in the region?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Question and her deep interest in this subject. I think the reason the Pakistan Government are doing this is that they are concerned about the activities of the Pakistan Taliban within Afghanistan, and this is their way of trying to get the Taliban Government to address that. One of the points I made to them is that that might well be counter- productive and we think this is the wrong move. We will continue to raise this with the Pakistan authorities at every level and on every occasion. Obviously, we have a specific British interest to make sure that any Afghans who worked for our authorities in Afghanistan, and who have a right to come and settle here under either of the two schemes we have, are not inadvertently pushed back into Afghanistan. That is our number one concern.

On the issue of the regime and recognition, I am sure there will be other questions about this, but, fundamentally, as the House knows, the Foreign Office always says that we recognise states and not Governments, which I know is right. However, on this occasion, when you look at this regime and what it is responsible for, you see that it bans women from working for the United Nations; it is the only country in the world to ban girls from secondary school; it restricts women’s access to parks, playgrounds and other public spaces; and it has a complete ban on women attending university. We are some way off moving to recognise this regime. We need to keep the pressure on for it to change its approach.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary may recall when he was Prime Minister meeting members of Afghanistan Commando Force 333, a counternarcotics unit that later became a counter- insurgency unit, which was created, trained, mentored and funded by His Majesty’s Government. He will be appalled to know that former and deserving members of CF 333, and the similarly created and funded ATF 444, were wrongly refused resettlement under the ARAP process. Abandoned, several have been killed and/or tortured. About 100 CF 333 and ATF 444 applicants were rejected and are in Pakistan, fearing imminent deportation and a death sentence. Will the Foreign Secretary agree to meet with me and a delegation of noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords and Baronesses so that we can explain the compelling case for an urgent review of the rejected or rescinded approvals of their settlement applications?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. Of course, he has great experience of this, having been the Defence Secretary for a prolonged period when we were in that fight in Afghanistan, and he knows exactly about the issues he raises. I am very happy to take away the point he makes about those two units and to look at them specifically. Under the Afghan relocations and assistance policy—the ARAP scheme—I think 12,200 people have been repatriated so far. Of course, the Foreign Office scheme, for which I am responsible—the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme—has the capacity for up to 20,000 people. I am very happy to take away the specific points that he makes and see what we can do to help.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

My Lords, after 9/11, when the West went into Afghanistan, we encouraged the women to come forward and play their part in public life, and they bravely responded. As my noble friend just said, since the Taliban came in in 2021, they have stopped women having access to education and basically pushed them back into their homes. Many are calling this gender apartheid. How will we ensure that the women of Afghanistan can play their part in their country, going forward?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. It is appalling how women are treated in Afghanistan. I gave some of the points earlier about access to school, education and university, and even to public spaces. We have to use the maximum leverage that we have. Of course, while we need to help people in Afghanistan who are facing great food insecurity and huge difficulties around shelter and livelihoods—and we are helping—we can do that through United Nations organisations, rather than through the Government of Afghanistan. We should continue to do that and use the pressure that we have to say to the regime that it needs to change its ways with respect to women and girls.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary has already mentioned that there is a danger of people in Pakistan who have ARAP entitlement being sent back to Afghanistan, and a hope that we can persuade Pakistan not to let them go back. Could he show the House the Government’s commitment to people who have ARAP entitlement, or ACRS entitlement, and talk with his right honourable friends in the other place the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, and the Cabinet Office, about ensuring that every single person who has ARAP entitlement is able to come from Pakistan or Afghanistan to this country? We owe those people; what are we doing?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is completely right; this is a cross-government effort. We have to make sure we identify these people, contact them and let them know about their right to come and live here. Then we have to work out, across the different departments of government, how to make sure that can happen in a way that works for them and their families. I can tell her that that is exactly what is happening in government at the moment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord just mentioned the ban on UN aid workers in Afghanistan. I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, here; in January, in response to an Urgent Question, he stressed the need for the Islamic world to speak out. I welcome very much the Foreign Secretary’s recent discussions with the Pakistan authorities, but what is he doing to support the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, in ensuring that we expand that to ensure that other voices are heard condemning this isolated regime banning women from attending hospitals and other humanitarian support? It is incredibly damaging.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

From what I have seen in the last three weeks, I know that my noble friend is incredibly active in his travels, particularly around the Middle East, north Africa and much of the Muslim world. He is an incredibly effective spokesman for the Government in trying to make a change on these issues. One of the things that is necessary is to make sure that those states which often privately speak very frankly about these things make it part of their public narrative. The work we do on that will be really essential.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, now that the Government have helpfully dropped their requirement that suitable housing in the UK be secured before Afghans may travel from Pakistan to the UK, and returning to what the Foreign Secretary described as his number one priority, how many UK visas have been issued since the policy was reversed on housing requirements to those Afghans trapped in Pakistan who qualify under one of the two main schemes that we initiated?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I do not have the figures since that change, but the overall figures are that ARAP has seen 12,200 people repatriated and the ACRS has a capacity of 20,000. Perhaps I can keep her and the House up to date about the figures as they progress. We are doing everything we can to contact those people on the Pakistan-Afghan border, but at the same time it is important to make it clear to the Pakistan Government that it would be unacceptable for them to deport anybody who has the right to come here.

Belarus

Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs what action he is taking, bilaterally and multilaterally, to put pressure on the government of Belarus (1) to restore democracy, and (2) to release political prisoners.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK’s position is clear: the Belarusian regime must release all political prisoners immediately and unconditionally and ensure free and fair elections. The UK has led international pressure on Belarus. We cofounded the International Accountability Platform for Belarus to build the evidence of the brutal repression that the regime is responsible for; we have sanctioned over 100 individuals and entities for human rights violations; and we cosponsored UN resolutions and investigations at the OSCE in Vienna to shine a spotlight on human rights in Belarus.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for that Answer, as far as it goes, but we must never forget that Lukashenko and his regime supported the Russians in the illegal invasion of Ukraine. They have imprisoned over 1,500 people, including Stepan Latypov, who I have adopted under the Libereco adoption scheme, and those prisoners have no immediate prospect of release. Meanwhile, Lukashenko’s cronies are going around the world acquiring assets freely. The UK Government have said over the last two years that they are going to impose more individual sanctions on the Lukashenko cronies, but nothing has happened. Will the Government now look at increasing the sanctions to make sure that pressure is put on the Lukashenko regime?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I completely admire what the noble Lord has done to keep the spotlight on Belarus and the work that he and others on the all-party group have done; it is hugely to his and the House’s credit. We have sanctioned 182 individuals and entities. We keep looking at what more can be done. We never announce potential names or sanctions before we do them, for obvious reasons, but we keep it under review. I am looking at it very carefully. The noble Lord is right, and we should be clear: this is Europe’s totalitarian regime. They randomly confiscate people’s mobile phones to see who they have been contacting and what social media they are following. Trade unions have been dissolved and their leaders imprisoned. Waving a Ukrainian flag is against the law and can result in a jail sentence, and there are 1,500 political prisoners, so we absolutely agree with the aim of the noble Lord’s Question and we will keep using the sanctions and other tools as appropriate.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I also welcome the Foreign Secretary to his position and I agree with him as regards the Belarus regime. I remind him of what he said in his famous immigration speech. He said that by introducing a new visa,

“we are rolling out the red carpet to those”

who offer serious investment to the UK. We now know that a number of Belarus businesspeople bought a large proportion of London property as a result of this golden visa route. I have supported every Belarus sanction that we have debated in this House, but there is nothing in the Government’s new development White Paper that offers any new support for human rights defenders or democracy activists within this conflict. Why is that? Can the Foreign Secretary reassure me that of those 182 individuals he mentioned not a single one continues to enjoy UK preferential visa access?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I make the point to the noble Lord, who asks an important question, that yes, of course, we introduced entrepreneur visas to try to attract bright talent to the UK to help to grow the economy, but that does not mean that we should give visas to people who have come by that money wrongly. One of the things I did as Prime Minister was to announce the London property register which is now coming in and will make a huge difference by confiscating people’s ill-gotten gains and returning them to the countries and the people from which they came so they can benefit. On the noble Lord’s specific question, I am very happy to take that away and look at it more, but it is important to recognise that we use the sanctions, we will keep using the sanctions, and we are watching closely what Belarus is doing.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, I also welcome the Foreign Secretary to his new role. I am glad to hear of his concern about political prisoners and the use of sanctions against those responsible, largely, for their being incarcerated. In that context, I raise the fact that Lukashenko is currently visiting China and President Xi. I am concerned as to whether we are making the same efforts in relation to the sanctioning of those responsible for imprisoning people; for example, in Hong Kong using the National Security Law. Jimmy Lai is there in prison, facing trumped up charges and he was a voice for democracy in Hong Kong. In the short period since he has been in office, has the noble Lord got to know about Jimmy Lai and is he raising his incarceration?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. Yes, I am aware of the case of Jimmy Lai. It is very important that we raise such cases in interactions with the Chinese Government and that is exactly what I have done.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I may bring the Foreign Secretary back to sanctions, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—I am also a godparent to one of the political prisoners in Belarus. I think that the Foreign Secretary will be aware of concerns about the loopholes that have been exposed in the sanctions. I think the House would like to know whether he is confident that, having identified them, the Government will be more effective in monitoring and enforcement. The sanctions will not be effective if they are not properly enforced and monitored and there will be very little point. Is he confident of their effectiveness? If not, what measures will he take to improve the position?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the honourable Lady for her question—sorry, the noble Baroness; I will get there eventually. I have not asked the Foreign Office for a specific analysis of the weakness of the sanctions, travel bans and asset freezes that we put in place, but I am very happy to do so and see whether there are ways in which the system is not working. We must sense-check all these things. The International Accountability Platform for Belarus sounds like a terrible set of initials, but it is about making sure that we support all the NGOs and others in looking at all the human rights abuses in Belarus so that they are properly charted and written down and may be able to form the criminal case against people working in that regime in future. It is important to do that. I certainly take away the point made by the noble Baroness.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

The Foreign Secretary will be aware that President Lukashenko and President Putin are the only members of an exclusive club of leaders whose countries do not recognise the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights. Does he share the view of the former Home Secretary that we should join that club?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I can point the noble Lord to speeches I made as far back as 2005 saying that we must always put our national interest first, whether in the need to deport dangerous terrorists or to have an immigration policy that works for our country. I believe that is consistent with remaining in the ECHR. However, as I found when Prime Minister, there are occasions when the ECHR makes judgments as it did on prisoner votes. It said that it was essential that we legislated instantly to give prisoners the vote; I said that I did not think that was the case and that it should be settled by the Houses of Parliament. The ECHR backed down. That sort of flexibility may well be necessary in future.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary will be aware that the incredibly evil and vile Wagner Group was allowed to move to Belarus after the mutiny in Russia was resolved. Does he share my concern about this? Will he raise this with the US Secretary of State when he sees him next week?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Belarus has been the No. 1 supporter of Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and it should be held to account for that. I am certainly happy to raise that with Secretary Blinken when I see him this week.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, I take the Foreign Secretary back to a previous answer he gave about the property register, which is a very important step forward in understanding whether corrupt individuals from Belarus or elsewhere are buying property in the UK. He may be aware of concerns that people can still hide behind beneficial trusts. As Foreign Secretary, will he work with his colleagues in government to try to get us to the next stage of transparency so that corrupt individuals cannot buy property and hide their ownership?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question, which I am very happy to take away. The Government I led and this Government have made progress on that. As he said, we have the register of property. A number of properties have been taken back from their owners and that money has been returned to the countries from which it was stolen. Added to that, we have the registers of beneficial ownership, including the public registers of beneficial ownership that I announced at the G8 in 2013. We are making huge progress on that globally and with our overseas territories. We need to do the same with our Crown dependencies. All this is essential if we are to fight corruption.