Police: Recruitment and Retention

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made towards implementing the recommendations on the recruitment and retention of police officers in the report of the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, published in February 1999.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the police workforce is more representative in gender and ethnicity than it has ever been. The recommendations made by the Stephen Lawrence inquiry report on police recruitment and retention have been implemented. However, the Government are absolutely clear that there is more for forces to do to ensure that the police workforce reflects the diversity of the communities that it serves.

[Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. This month marks the 20th anniversary of the inquiry. There were 70 recommendations but I will ask the Minister about only recommendation 64, which addresses the recruitment and retention of minority officers and staff. It says that the Home Secretary and police authorities’ policing plans,

“should include targets for recruitment, progression and retention of minority ethnic staff”,

that the Home Office should,

“facilitate the development of initiatives to increase the number of qualified minority ethnic recruits”,

and that HMIC should include,

“in a thematic inspection a report on the progress made by Police Services”.

I find it really difficult to find any report giving me an update. Can the Minister give the House an update on recommendation 64 on recruitment and retention since the report was published?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness and all that she has achieved on some of the recommendations that have come out of the report. On the three recommendations she talked about, there are several things going on. She will have seen the race disparity audit, which is published by the Government and continually updated on the government website to show exactly where the disparities lie and where improvements need to be made. Last year, the NPCC produced a diversity, equality and inclusion strategy led by Chief Constable Gareth Wilson. It attempts, across all areas of the police, to increase inclusion and diversity. The superintendents’ association and college have a mentoring and coaching scheme precisely to improve the recruitment of BME staff. The figure has improved, but the noble Baroness is right to ask the question because we have much further to go.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I am told that, recently, almost 50% of all black and minority-ethnic officers of superintendent rank and above in the Metropolitan Police were under investigation of one kind or another. It is also alleged that a recent promotion selection process in the Metropolitan Police contained a test that was known to be culturally biased, and that some BME officers who passed every other part of the assessment were failed because they did not pass the culturally biased part. Will the Minister look into what appear to be allegations of institutional racism?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, these are very serious allegations indeed and I will of course look into them. If officers are under investigation, it may be more difficult for me, but the allegation that 50% of BME staff at superintendent rank or above are under investigation is very concerning.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I support the bid from the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, to increase the recruitment of minority-ethnic officers. By the time I left the Met, one in three of our recruits was from a minority, but I am still worried. For the past three years we have seen no recruitment because of lack of resources. This means there has been a pause in the change in make-up of all our police forces. I encourage the Minister and the Government to consider the Northern Ireland approach, as instigated by the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes. It did not change at all the standards for recruitment—people were offered a place in order of ability, but also in order of their representation in society. In the Northern Ireland context, therefore, unionists got jobs later and Catholics tended to get them earlier. I seriously think it is worth considering this in a UK context, given that we still see underrepresentation in our police service, as in many public services.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that positive action is absolutely necessary. I take his point about less recruitment happening in recent years. Now is the moment to put that positive action into place and encourage people from BME backgrounds to come forward and apply for roles in the police.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, in recent years television programmes have taken seriously the issue of role modelling: look at the BBC’s “Luther” and ITV’s DS Sunny Khan in “Unforgotten”. But these role models cannot be just fictional. Will the Minister outline the statistics for those in the senior ranks of our forces from a black and minority-ethnic background?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend points to an area where we are doing very badly: the senior ranks. In 2017-18, 27% of new recruits to the Met Police were from a BME background. To get people from BME backgrounds through to the senior ranks, we need new recruits as the pipeline for the future. She talked about role models, and I take this opportunity to give my good wishes to the brother of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary as he proceeds up the ranks of the police.

[Baroness Osamor (Lab)]

My Lords, the recommendations in the inquiry begin by talking about:

“Openness, accountability and the restoration of confidence”,


and the need:

“To increase trust and confidence in policing among minority ethnic communities”.


What level of confidence is there in policing among the black and ethnic-minority communities?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is certainly something that we have to work on and that the police have to work on. Whether you are talking about a democratic system or organisations such as the police, you need recruits from BME backgrounds because it is important that they look like and are in tune with the communities that they serve.

Child Refugees

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many refugee children have arrived in the United Kingdom from Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey under the Vulnerable Children's Resettlement Scheme, since its launch in April 2016.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, as of September 2018 a total of 1,075 refugees have been resettled through the Vulnerable Children’s Resettlement Scheme. Over half of those resettled were children. Most refugees settled have been from Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt, although—following UNHCR’s urgent appeal— we have accepted approximately 50 unaccompanied children from Libya via Niger.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her Answer. Will she agree that while the conditions in the camps in Jordan, say, are physically better than in the camps on the Greek islands or in northern France, there are still many people there who are stuck and have no hope of any future unless countries such as Britain show a bit of humanity and bring more of them here. Could we not speed up the process?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, this country is not just bringing people here. We are also helping people out in the region, as the noble Lord will know. He will also know that the then Prime Minister significantly increased our contribution to help those people out in the region, many of whom could not actually make the journey over here. I think that is to be commended. It is also much more efficient to help people out in the region when hopefully peace will come at some point soon.

[Baroness Stroud (Con)]

Can my noble friend the Minister tell the House how many of the children who have come to the United Kingdom have gone missing in the care system and what steps will be taken to find them, bring them back into care and ensure they are not further exploited?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for asking a very important question. Those children are particularly vulnerable when they come here, and people who would wish to exploit children have an ideal opportunity to do so when those children arrive. I can assure my noble friend that local authorities—which are, of course, the corporate parents of these children—are doing all they can to ensure that they do not go missing and, when they do, to ensure their safe return. I cannot give her numbers, but I will try to write to her if I have those numbers.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, Christian refugees from the region, including children, face a double handicap: first, as refugees, and, secondly, because they are not welcome as Christians in the camp. In spite of the warm words of the Foreign Secretary just before Christmas, we received no Christian refugees from the region in the first six months of last year. Has the situation improved?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In assessing whether refugees need our help, we do not do so by what religion they are but by where their vulnerability lies. I do not know whether the situation has improved—it is probably over to my noble friend to follow that up. However, I hope the situation has improved. As I said, we do not differentiate by religion.

[The Lord Bishop of Salisbury]

The youngsters who have made the journey across Europe are among the most courageous young people in the world. You do not leave home unless you live in the mouth of a shark. What are the Government doing with those who arrive and, as the Minister said, are vulnerable? The Children’s Society recently published evidence of a high level of self-harm and suicide among these people. What is happening with the introduction of independent guardians, as is the case in Scotland and Northern Ireland? What other provisions can be made? What can be done for these young people to have permanent leave to remain when they reach adult age?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right: any child who makes that journey is in an incredibly vulnerable position from the moment they leave their country of origin to the moment they arrive here, whether it is to people traffickers who bring them across dangerous seas, the dangerous seas themselves or the exploitation they might face during the journey or when they arrive here. Local authorities will provide wraparound care through the various agencies that might be involved with these children. The right reverend Prelate is right to say that psychological trauma is one of the main things that these children suffer. The message is that children should not be sent across these dangerous regions and across the sea to get here. They should be helped in the region or become refugees, at which point this country will give them the security that they need.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, 1,075 is a drop in the ocean given the appalling situation in the region. Last week, the Minister assured the House that the Home Office takes very seriously the importance of quality assurance, and that must include efficiency. To give just one example, in October, the Court of Appeal described as patently inadequate the Home Office’s dealing with unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. Is the Minister satisfied that quality assurance really is embedded in the Home Office?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, 1,075 is not the definitive number: it is 1,075 who have been settled through the Vulnerable Children’s Resettlement Scheme. In addition, there is the vulnerable persons settlement scheme, under which we have resettled almost 14,000 people, half of whom were children. I am confident that quality assurance is in place, and I expect it to be in place given that we are dealing with probably the most vulnerable children who settle in this country.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, on trafficking and those who the Government quite rightly say should be deterred from travelling to the Mediterranean if at all possible, the reality is that thousands of people are still being trafficked and sent—not necessarily voluntarily. They then go on to boats on the Mediterranean and make that most dangerous of crossings. There are now no rescue boats whatever available on the Mediterranean because of the actions of the Italian Government, supported by the European Union and others. When people do find themselves in the sea, they are drowning. What actions are the Government taking to put pressure on the Italian authorities and the European Union, in these last few weeks of our membership, to rectify the situation?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Whether we are a member of the European Union or not, we will take seriously our responsibilities to help those people in need. The noble Lord will appreciate that there is a fine balance to be struck between encouraging people to make dangerous journeys and wanting to help them take refuge from some of the terrible situations they have come from.

Equal Pay

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Prosser]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to amend the Equality Act 2010 in relation to equal pay.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain fully committed to the equal pay protections in the Equality Act 2010 and to the fundamental principle of equal pay for equal work.

[Baroness Prosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. It is disappointing, but not surprising. We were all pleased with the measures taken by the Government last year to require employers of more than 250 people to make public their gender pay gaps. We welcomed that information because it gave us a picture of where the problems lay, but will we simply receive it as though there is nothing more that can be done?

Change will not come about by osmosis. Action will have to be taken. For a start, the law could require companies to break down the data to give us a better picture by age, ethnicity and so forth. Plus, the Government could legislate to require employers to develop positive action programmes—maybe establishing women-only training schemes, for example—or to provide more decent-quality part-time jobs. Will the Minister consider such initiatives as those, which would help to close the gender pay gap and bring the Equal Pay Act into the 21st century?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is a good idea to say at this point that the gender pay gap and equal pay are two different things, although both may exist in the same organisation. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that work needs to go on to encourage organisations to improve their gender pay gaps where they are wide. The EHRC and the Government are working with organisations that want to improve their situation. This is not something that has just been left on the shelf. The gender pay gap is at its lowest, but we still have further to go.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, the Resolution Foundation has estimated that Britain’s 1.6 million black, Asian and minority ethnic employees are losing out to the tune of £3.2 billion a year in wages compared with white colleagues doing the same work. We welcome the consultation that the Prime Minister launched in October to seek views on whether there should be mandatory reporting of ethnic pay gaps at work. We know that the diversity of the workforce is good for business, so does the Minister agree that the time has now come to introduce ethnic and minority pay gap reporting?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Organisations can indeed do that if they wish, but the noble Baroness raises an important point. Actually, gender pay gap reporting was the first step in what will be a long process. It had never been done before and we wondered before organisations reported what the compliance rate would be. As the noble Baroness will know, it was 100%. It is not that organisations do not want to go further—they do—but she is right that a gender and ethnically diverse workforce makes for a better workforce.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, if we really want to have women working in this country and therefore being equal, as a country we need to take childcare seriously. I have been campaigning for this since I was 21—I am obviously way past the need for it now—but we still do not have it. Have the Government ever considered the scheme that Quebec introduced in 1997 whereby universal childcare was subsidised? You paid about 10 quid a day. It was found that very soon the increased revenues from women’s earnings paid for the measure through the taxation system. If we want women to work and to be equal, surely the state must take a role in doing some of women’s work, which is rearing and looking after children.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am very interested to hear about Quebec’s scheme, and I thank the noble Baroness for that. This Government introduced 39 hours of free childcare for working parents and have encouraged shared parental leave, which is possibly not as good as it should be. We can certainly learn from other countries, such as Sweden, in that regard.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, would the Government consider home-based working as working so that people working at home are recognised and valorised as workers? That would allow a lot of home- based textile workers who are employed by their kin to be entitled to the privileges to which other workers are entitled.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Home-based working is a very good idea. Certainly organisations see it as beneficial to have some flexibility in the way that their employees work. It is to be encouraged.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

There is a simpler answer to all these inequalities, particularly discrimination against women. I ask the Minister not to dismiss it out of hand, which she has done before. If we put all income tax returns into the public domain, as has been done in some countries in Scandinavia, we would see what incomes are and what tax dodging takes place, and we would then see the real nature of inequality.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord has mentioned this to me before and I have rejected it. The equal pay legislation and the gender pay gap audits that we have asked organisations to undertake are starting to lift the lid on where inequality lies in our workforces.

[Baroness Gale (Lab)]

My Lords, in April companies will be required for the second time to publish their pay gap data, and I hope we will see some improvement in closing that gap. Does the Minister agree that, for that to be effective, companies should be required to publish action plans and that civil penalties should be issued to companies that do not comply with the law? If the Equality and Human Rights Commission could be given powers and resources to carry out enforcement activity, that would have more immediate impact because at present no action seems to be taken when companies fail to deliver.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is good practice for companies to publish action plans. One of the requirements for companies not publishing their gender pay gap figures is that they carry out a gender pay gap audit. That did not come to pass because all companies complied. It certainly is good practice and some companies are doing it.

Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Bill [HL]

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 1.

1: Clause 1. page 1, line 20, leave out subsections (5) and (6)

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, as noble Lords will know, the purpose of the Bill is to sidestep the bureaucratic barriers that we currently face in investigating and prosecuting serious crime. The Bill allows law enforcement agencies to access content data directly from communication providers based overseas using an overseas production order.

Briefly, before turning to the amendments to the Bill made in the Commons, I know from conversations with the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Kennedy, that there were some concerns surrounding extradition. I put on the record and reassure noble Lords that this Bill has nothing to do with extradition. Overseas production orders are about seeking stored communications content data from overseas providers for the investigation and prosecution of UK criminal matters; it does not provide any new avenues for extradition, which is entirely out of scope of this Bill.

I turn to the amendments made in the other place. Orders under the Bill can work only when a relevant international agreement is in place between the UK and another country. As the majority of the CSPs are based in North America, we expect the first such agreement to be with the United States. Amendments 1, 13 and 15 relate to death penalty assurances in any such international agreement.

Amendment 13A, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, would amend the Bill to oblige the Secretary of State to seek and secure a death penalty assurance in any future international treaty. I make it absolutely clear: if noble Lords vote in favour of this amendment, they will be tying this and all future Governments’ hands in negotiations that are never entirely under our control, whether they be with the US or any other country with which we wish to enter into an agreement. Live international negotiations do not work in this way. If we are unable to secure a relevant international treaty, this Bill and its powers will be rendered entirely pointless.

As I have stated throughout the passage of the Bill, it is our duty to give our law enforcement agencies the tools that they need to fight and prevent serious crime, and our prosecution authorities the tools that they need to bring offenders to justice. Current delays in accessing content data held and stored by companies based outside the UK make their job much harder. Delays prevent criminals being brought to justice. If we do not successfully conclude this Bill and the US agreement, child abusers will be able to continue their heinous crimes while the police wait for up to two years for the relevant evidence to be transferred from abroad, or worse still, drop investigations because they simply cannot afford to sit through long delays.

The reality is that the majority of communication service providers are in the US. It is a fact that we need access to data held in the US a lot more than the US needs access to data held in the UK. The UK holds only 1% of the data that we need to prevent and catch sexual abusers of children, meaning that 99% of it is stored abroad. The level of child sexual abuse reported by US service providers has increased, and continues to increase, in horrific quantities—by 700% since 2012. There is a clear inequality of arms from the outset, and to restrict Ministers’ discretion in negotiations could jeopardise the US agreement and result in serious criminals being able to continue their abuse.

Of course the US treaty will have some form of death penalty assurance associated with it, but the exact details and practicalities of this assurance have not yet been negotiated. That is why Parliament will, rightly, have its say on any treaty put before the Houses during designation and prior to ratification. Members can then decide whether the contents of the treaty and its death penalty assurances are acceptable to the House.

In recognition of the concerns raised by noble Lords, the Government have amended the Bill so as to mandate the Secretary of State to seek death penalty assurances in connection with all relevant international agreements. For the first time, this puts into primary legislation policy that reflects the overseas security and justice assistance brought in under the coalition Government in 2010. The outcome of such negotiations will be implicit in the international treaty necessary to give effect to this Bill. The Government will commit to make a Statement, in both Houses, when the relevant treaty is put before Parliament in the usual way. Indeed, this Government and previous Governments are familiar with the need to obtain death penalty assurances when providing evidence to other countries. We do this in line with OSJA, a fundamental piece of long-standing policy that recognises that negotiating with another country is complex and does not attempt to dictate the outcome of any particular negotiation. Governments of all colours have agreed with and used the approach set out in OSJA.

The Government’s amendment, in line with OSJA, is therefore a sensible compromise that does not jeopardise law enforcement agencies’ capabilities. I ask noble Lords to support Amendments 1, 13 and 15, to let the Government continue our negotiations with our international partners as we have done for so many years, and to exercise powers of scrutiny—both prior to ratification of the agreement under CRaG and when secondary legislation comes to be laid—to assess whether the terms of any death penalty assurances are acceptable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I am far less clear than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that it would be a breach of our obligations under the European Convention for us to supply information abroad in circumstances where it may be used in a prosecution that may lead to a death penalty. As he well knows, all the cases concern extradition. They concern circumstances in which this country is removing a person to face possible trial abroad where that person may be executed. The European Court of Human Rights has repeatedly made it clear that that is a breach of our obligations. I am far less clear on whether the same would apply where all we do is provide information, which is under the control of the authorities in this jurisdiction, to assist a prosecution abroad.

A particular reason why I am far less clear is that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, mentioned the one example where there was a challenge to the decision of the Secretary of State to do precisely this: to provide information abroad to the United States in circumstances where it was said, accurately, “These people may face prosecution which may lead to the death penalty”. My recollection, which I would be grateful if the noble Lord or the Minister could confirm, is that the Home Secretary’s decision was the subject of a legal challenge and—again, please confirm whether I am right or wrong—the High Court rejected that challenge. It held that it was lawful for the Home Secretary to act in that way.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is correct.

[Lord Pannick]

I am very grateful. I do not have immediate access to that judgment, but perhaps the Minister can provide the House with some assistance in relation to it. Can the Minister also confirm what I understood her to say: no information will be provided abroad under the Bill, unless and until there is an agreement with the relevant state—here the United States? My understanding—again, I think the noble Baroness said this, but I should like her to confirm—is that before any such agreement has practical effect, it must be put before this House and the other place for approval. Ratification cannot take place unless and until, under CRaG 2010, Parliament has had that opportunity. It seems that is the time at which both Houses of Parliament can consider whether they wish to approve such an agreement, if it does not contain the sort of assurance that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is seeking.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the central point here is whether or not we are in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. My view is that we are not. Article 1 of the 13th protocol does not prevent member states providing assistance to a third country, where that assistance contributes to the use of the death penalty by that country. Even if the amendment related to the use of the designation power, under Section 52 of the 2016 Act—which would be the gateway for the flow of information from the UK—it would still not prevent designation in the absence of assurances about the use of our material. That is not to say that we will be sharing information for the pursuit of the death penalty. Noble Lords have heard, on many occasions, that I am not going to pre-empt our negotiations with the US, but this shows that not only is the amendment unnecessary but it may not do what its sponsors hope.

The case of the foreign fighter, which the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about, shows that we are compatible with the ECHR, for the reasons outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said that any agreement would have to be put before Parliament. That is absolutely the case. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, talked about this being the negotiation stage. I would put it further back than that: it is the pre-negotiation stage. It is a framework Bill, on the basis of which treaties would be negotiated and made.

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that, when a treaty is put to Parliament, if the House of Commons approves it, then it does not matter what the opinion of this House is; the treaty is ratified even if this House votes against it? I obviously agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, that whether this is a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights has yet to be tested in court—certainly not at the European level. Will the Minister explain why the then Foreign Secretary had to say that seeking death-penalty assurances in the ISIS case was unique and exceptional, if the Government were not concerned about people executed on the back of evidence provided by the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. The treaty would be put to the Commons; the Lords could certainly have a view but that might not be taken into account by the Commons. That is nothing unusual. The Commons quite often exerts its supremacy.

Motion agreed.

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 2 to 12.

2: Clause 4, page 5, line 25, at end insert—
“(5A) The judge must be satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for believing that all or part of the electronic data specified or described in the application for the order is likely to be relevant evidence in respect of the offence mentioned in subsection (3)(a).
This requirement does not apply where the order is sought for the purposes of a terrorist investigation.”

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 13.

13: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Designation of international agreements for purposes of section 52 of Investigatory Powers Act 2016
(1) Section 52 of the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 (interception of communications in accordance with overseas requests) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (3), at the end insert “(see further subsections (6) and (7))”. (3) After subsection (5) insert—
“(6) Subsection (7) applies where an international agreement provides for requests for the interception of a communication to be made by the competent authorities of a country or territory, or of more than one country or territory, in which a person found guilty of a criminal offence may be sentenced to death for the offence under the general criminal law of the country or territory concerned. Such an offence is referred to in subsection (7) as a “death penalty offence”.
(7) Where this subsection applies, the Secretary of State may not designate the agreement as a relevant international agreement unless the Secretary of State has sought, in respect of each country or territory referred to in subsection (6), a written assurance, or written assurances, relating to the non-use of information obtained by virtue of the agreement in connection with proceedings for a death penalty offence in the country or territory.””

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 14 and 15.

14: Clause 17, page 14, line 20, at end insert—
““the data protection legislation” has the same meaning as in the Data Protection Act 2018 (see section 3 of that Act);”

Migrant Crossings: Naval Assets

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the total cost charged by the Ministry of Defence to the Home Office for the use of HMS Mersey and naval assets in the Channel since 1 January.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the deployment of the Royal Navy vessel is an interim measure while the two Border Force cutters currently redeployed from overseas make their way back to UK waters. To date, this has cost £700,000. The deployment is funded by the Home Office and will be kept under constant review.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. This operation has been a complete and utter shambles. That is a real worry because, as we move towards Brexit, the need to patrol our territorial seas and enforce our laws both there and in our exclusive economic zone is going to become greater. Who on earth is co-ordinating this? In the Navy we have a nice tradition where occasionally we shoot a senior officer to encourage the others. This might be a perfect candidate for the case. We have in place a joint maritime operations centre, which has all the departments there. Why can we not fully fund it and put a person in charge—a naval officer or whoever, I do not care—who can co-ordinate our shortage of assets to do the things we need to do? This is only going to cost a couple of million, which is not that much in the big order of things.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out that as we approach Brexit we should be mindful of some of the events that might happen around it. We will shortly have a director in post at JMOCC, which I hope gives him some comfort. The nature of a crisis would determine the co-ordination response.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will have seen a report in the Sunday Times that the Government have reduced a promised £22 million towards a public health approach to tackling knife crime to £17 million. Is that where the Home Office found the money to pay the Ministry of Defence? If so, can she explain why the Government see keeping desperate refugees out of the UK a priority over saving the lives of British youngsters on our streets?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, when I saw the article in the Sunday Times, I realised it was wrong. The noble Lord is absolutely right to state that £22 million was committed. It still is committed; £17 million of it has already been allocated. That is not to say that the additional £5 million will not be forthcoming, because it will. In terms of desperate refugees, I think he might be referring to the PNQ that he is about to ask, but these are serious criminals.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell us why we need expensive naval ships to escort immigrants, who may be in sinking boats, to our ports?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the nature of the event was such that the two cutters to which the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, referred were undergoing maintenance at the time. Yes, there has been a temporary deployment of a Navy ship. It is not cheap—I agree with my noble friend on that—but the two cutters will soon be back in action.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that the Home Secretary’s decision has not left us vulnerable elsewhere in the world? What is being done to break up the operations of these criminals and catch the people smugglers, whose reckless actions are putting people’s lives at risk?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, an awful lot of work is going on to stop the movement of people across the water—recently it has been in the channel, where the waters are very dangerous indeed. The noble Lord might like to know that as recently as the last couple of weeks, the Home Secretary met Minister Castaner to discuss bilateral co-operation on maintaining our waters and keeping people safe when they make those terrible journeys across the channel.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that most of these refugees crossing the channel are from Iran, and that their chance of staying in the UK, whether permission is granted or not, is 97%? Would it not therefore be better to have a really effective way of differentiating between genuine refugees and economic migrants, and making sure that the latter are returned?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is correct about the high percentage of Iranians. His second point is right too, and that is what we are trying to achieve.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, as part of its contingency planning for a crash-out no-deal Brexit, is the Home Office preparing measures to discourage British citizens from leaving the country?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

No, my Lords, we are not.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister reconsider the Written Answer she gave me last week about some of the Iranians who have fled their own country because of persecution, or even because they were facing execution for reasons such as religious belief or coming from particularly at-risk minorities? She said that it would be impossible to carry out a manual count of those who have come across the channel and look at the reasons why they have come, to identify whether they are economic migrants or genuine refugees fleeing persecution.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

When I wrote to the noble Lord saying that we could not do that, it was simply because the data was not available to disaggregate, but I will look at his Written Question again and see whether I can give him any further information.

Deportation: Jamaica

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, it would not be appropriate to comment on individual cases, particularly those subject to ongoing legal proceedings. It may be helpful to know that a number of factors impact on a person’s planned removal from the UK. This does not mean that the original decision to remove the individual was incorrect. If barriers to their removal are resolved and they are not granted a form of leave, the person remains subject to deportation as required under the UK Borders Act 2007.

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. Yet, lawyers representing some of those due to be deported say that the reprieve is permanent. Yesterday, I asked the Minister how the Government could be sure that those they intended to deport as foreign national offenders were actually foreign nationals, bearing in mind the mistakes that had been made with the Windrush generation. The Minister said that she had been assured that all those being deported were foreign nationals. Yesterday, in the other place, the Home Secretary said that the law required him to deport foreign nationals convicted of serious offences and that if he did not deport them, he would be breaking the law. As I say, overnight it has been reported that five of those due to be deported are no longer going to be deported. Can the Minister explain: did the Government mislead the House, or has the Home Secretary broken the law?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have not misled the House, nor has the Home Secretary broken the law. I thought I had made clear in my original Answer that the original decision to remove an individual is not incorrect, but there may be factors that need to be resolved, such as fresh asylum claims and other reasons why a fresh appeal might be lodged, which might mean that someone is not deported but might ultimately be deported. Therefore, neither is true.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, while I accept that deportation must remain an option for the Government, some of the decisions to deport people that I have seen reported look extremely harsh. How can we be confident that the Home Office is being just in its application of the deportation policy generally?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have to say that it was under a Labour Government that the UK Borders Act 2007 was brought in. A deportation order must be made in respect of a foreign criminal sentenced to a period of more than 12 months, and we will not resile from that—I am sure the noble Lord would not expect us to do so. This was what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary was referring to when he made his comment yesterday about not wanting to break the law.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, the implication of what the Minister said, a bit like what the Home Secretary said yesterday, is, “Oh, this is a law that Labour brought in. We are being forced to do it, because Labour did it”. If you do not agree with that law, why have you not got rid of it? Why use petty party points on a serious issue like this?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there was a very good example of petty party points in the other place yesterday. It is not that the Home Secretary does not agree with the law; the Home Secretary is abiding by the law.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, within the last few days I met a man who has lived in the UK for 41 years, since the age of four. He was due to be deported to Jamaica, but then his deportation was cancelled, which is obviously good news. Does the Minister think this is a just way for this country to conduct its deportation policies? How many more people are in the pipeline to be deported day after day, and which we are only hearing about in the newspapers? Somehow the Government are in denial that they have any responsibility to take care of these people.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will understand that I will not comment on an individual case. She is absolutely right that deportations go on all the time. Although this flight has come to the fore in the media this week, it is nothing unusual. I cannot comment on whether this deportation has been cancelled or not.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the weaknesses in the Government’s position over the Windrush scandal was that it demonstrated evidence of a “Gotcha!” culture in the immigration service and in the Home Office? Achieving a deportation was chalked up as a victory by the staff concerned. Can she reassure us that that culture has now gone and that some of the worst aspects of the Windrush problem will not recur?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right to make this point. When the Home Secretary first took up his post, he made it a central priority that that culture of a hostile environment—which had grown up over the years, if we are to be honest—would be far more attuned towards talking about a compliant environment and that the culture in the Home Office would be changed to be far more humane. That was demonstrated in the aftermath of what happened to the Windrush people. I hope this continues towards those who genuinely have a right to be in this country.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, while it is welcome that the new Home Secretary has made this a central plank, there is continuing concern as these cases continue to bubble up. Can the Minister assure us that the Home Secretary is having a series of meetings not just with the high commissioners of these various Caribbean islands, but also with community representatives? May I remind my noble friend that a considerable proportion of these people, particularly of this generation, are involved in faith communities? Maybe reaching out to these leaders would help resolve some of these cases more swiftly.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a good point. The Home Secretary has been in touch with the high commissioners. Of course, local—particularly Caribbean—communities are best placed to know where people who need help can seek it and where cases can be dealt with. We have reached out to all these Caribbean communities and beyond in order to encourage people to come forward to get the help which they might need to resolve their status.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, there is a real need to have cultural understanding of individuals who are being investigated. There needs to be public confidence that people are being treated fairly. How many BAME people are Home Office officials working on these cases to give the public the confidence they need?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Baroness’s exact question, but I will find out what proportion of BAME staff work in the Home Office and let her know that.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, just for clarification, will the Minister explain that, when a foreign national is convicted of a criminal offence and receives a sentence of, I think, more than two years, they then qualify for deportation? It is probably a matter for the judge to make a recommendation and then the Home Office takes over to see whether there are any mitigating circumstances. Is that correct?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is actually a sentence of more than 12 months, but certainly Article 8 considerations are taken into consideration before someone is deported. The provision exists under the UK Borders Act to deport people who have been sentenced to 12 months’ or more imprisonment.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness will return to her previous answer on the subject of the hostile environment, which I think she described as having grown up over many years. My recollection—on which I am sure she will correct me if I am wrong—is that in fact the policy may have had a number of aspects, but it was named and prosecuted under the previous Government, and the Home Secretary at the time was the current Prime Minister.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We could have a debate about this, but I understand that the phrase was actually coined by Alan Johnson, but I shall not start on party-political exchanges because, the phrase having been coined, the culture of hostility grew up over a number of years. We could argue the semantics of it, but it grew up over a number of years. Compliance on immigration matters is far more important than a hostile culture within the Home Office or anywhere else.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, it is certainly my experience from business that it takes several years to change a culture in a company. Can the Minister explain to the House what is practically been done—I do not want to use the phrase re-education—in terms of training? Are programmes under way, or is this just Ministers telling people not to enforce the policy any longer?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will know from his experience that the person who sets the culture in an organisation is the leadership, and I think the Home Secretary made it abundantly clear when he came into post that the hostile environment was no longer to be, but the noble Lord is right: it takes time for these things to change.

Westminster: Security

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Rawlings]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review security in the vicinity of the Palace of Westminster.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government provide a wide range of advice and guidance to the public about threats and how they can be mitigated. It is a matter for the owners and operators of crowded places to consider this advice and take forward appropriate security measures.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer. Security is vitally important not only around Westminster but across the whole country. My concern is about bridges and the plight of pedestrians, as described by Athena in Country Life this week. The solid security barriers along bridges could be potentially dangerous for pedestrians trapped in these pens. Would the Minister agree that it is unacceptable for hundreds of pedestrians to be forced—kettled like demonstrators—along bridges, funnelled through the too narrow spaces created by what was probably meant to be a temporary measure but is now a permanent one?

These barriers present a new crush risk, with huge selfie-taking crowds rambling across the bridges. Should there be any accident, there is no escape. Can the Minister look into suggestions that these security barriers be replaced by security bollards which are far less obtrusive and would avoid many of the security barrier problems?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will appreciate that the physical intervention in a specific place is based on both the threat and protection of the public. The measures—known as hostile vehicle mitigation measures—were put in place after the terrorist attack in London. It cannot be forgotten that the public need to be protected, even if they might undergo some temporary inconvenience. The hostile vehicle mitigation measures are temporary although they will stay until permanent solutions, which are being looked at, are in place.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, has there been a security assessment of the full implications of the new Holocaust museum, particularly its learning centre, which will occupy the bulk of the Victoria Tower Gardens site? If there has, what does it mean for additional policing and congestion in the region?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises an important point in the light of the various anti-Semitic incidents that have taken place recently. Ministers have agreed to fund security measures on an exceptional basis, as part of the Westminster ceremonial streetscape project. I am not entirely certain whether that project extends down to the Victoria Tower Gardens, but I shall find out for him. However, it is important that such places are fully protected. Assessments of the threat in and around Westminster are of course carried out every day.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, we have all seen the ugly scenes outside Parliament of parliamentarians being subject to abuse. The worrying thing about the enhanced security in the vicinity of Parliament is the number of officers who are being taken away from policing their local communities, or having yet more days off cancelled, to provide the security necessary because of the mishandling of Brexit by this Government. Will the Home Office reimburse the Metropolitan Police for dealing with these problems, which the Government have created?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think that is a bit of a low blow. It is certainly understood that any protective measures needed will have to be paid for by the authorities which commission them. If the Metropolitan Police is needed, its time and effort will therefore have to be paid for. I have seen many demonstrations outside the Houses of Parliament on a range of issues and I thank the police, who stand ready to protect the public and Members of Parliament from them.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

Will the Minister take this opportunity to thank the staff of both Houses and those in the Metropolitan Police, who work incredibly hard to keep us, our guests and the visitors to this building safe? They deserve full credit.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right and I thank them again, because they provide an absolutely fantastic service to us in such a courteous way. I do not know whether the noble Lord was at the excellent security briefing yesterday for Members of your Lordships’ House; it was a very good occasion at which to raise some of our concerns.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I join the Minister in paying tribute to the police and everybody else who protects us and the staff of the House. I know that she agrees with me that Members of both Houses, their staff, other officials and members of the public have the right to come in and out of Parliament free from abuse, harassment or intimidation—along with the right of people to protest peacefully. Will the Minister agree to keep the situation under urgent review with the relevant authorities and report back to Parliament on any measure deemed necessary to protect these important freedoms?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises a really important point about the right to protest. I think I am known by name by some of our friends standing across the road, voicing their support for—or against—Brexit. There are updates every day about the threat to this estate and the vicinity, and I am certainly happy to update noble Lords about any emerging threats.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that we all have a duty and responsibility to help the security staff as much as we can? One of the first pieces of information we are given on entering the building is that we should make sure we are wearing our ID passes. Looking along the Labour Front Bench, I am not sure I can find many that are actually visible—they may be very well hidden. Do we not all have a duty to help the staff protect us?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have got mine too. There should be none of this, “Do you not know who I am?”; I have never heard people say that in this House. The only reason we are ever asked is in order to protect us.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, it used to be a cardinal democratic principle that elected representatives of our people had the right to attend Parliament and voice opinions on behalf of those constituents. Is that still the case?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It absolutely is, and it is the central plank of our parliamentary democracy.

Windrush Scheme

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat the Answer to an Urgent Question asked in another place:

“Mr Speaker, righting the wrongs done to the Windrush generation has been at the forefront of my priorities as Home Secretary. That is why I have apologised on behalf of this Government and our predecessors. History shows that members of the Windrush generation—who have done so much to enrich our country—were wrongly caught up in measures designed to tackle illegal migration long before 2010. We all bear some responsibility for this.

This Government are acting to right this wrong. Our Windrush task force is helping those who have been affected. We are making it easy for them to stay and have waived all fees—2,450 individuals had been given documentation confirming their status by the end of last year. They were all helped by the task force, which we set up in April. At least 3,400 have been granted citizenship under the Windrush scheme we opened on 30 May 2018. The task force’s vulnerable persons team has provided support to 614 individuals, with 52 cases ongoing. It continues to receive approximately 20 new referrals each week. The task force has made 215 referrals to DWP to help people restore or receive benefits; 177 individuals have been given advice and support on issues relating to housing; and 164 individuals have been identified by the historical cases review unit, of whom 18 have been identified as people who we consider have suffered detriment due to their right to be in the UK not being recognised. Sadly, three of them are now deceased. I have written to the remaining 15 to apologise.

As part of putting right what has gone wrong, we are putting in place a compensation scheme to address the losses suffered by those affected. We have consulted on this to ensure that we get it right. We will bring forward more detail on the final shape of the compensation scheme as soon as possible, having carefully considered the views that have been submitted. In December the Home Office also published a policy for providing support in urgent and exceptional circumstances. This set out the approach and decision-making process for such cases. The policy will support those who have an urgent and exceptional need, and compelling reasons why this cannot wait for the full compensation scheme.

As I said on the day I became Home Secretary, I am determined to right the wrongs suffered by members of the Windrush generation. Let there be no doubt: my commitment to this remains resolute”.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, reading the coverage of the Willow Sims case highlighted for me why people are worried about the ability of the Home Office to deal with these matters correctly. Can the Minister tell the House which Minister at the Home Office is responsible for the oversight of Windrush matters? How does that oversight take place? Is it a regular meeting with officials, the receipt of written reports or both—or some other mechanism? How is it that they have failed so badly in this case to exercise their duties properly and to avoid cases such as Willow Sims being treated so badly, as we have heard today?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we do not usually talk about individual cases but, of course, this case was brought up earlier in another place with my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. He said earlier that the letter was received only at the end of last week. It is now Tuesday. He has said that he will deal with it as a priority.

I think that the Windrush issue shames all Governments of the last 40 years or so. The Home Secretary has endeavoured in every way to make right the wrongs, as he said, and the failures of successive Governments. Not only are the Windrush task force and Windrush scheme in place, the exceptional circumstances scheme and the compensation scheme—the details of which will be released very shortly—are also in place. We cannot rewrite history, but we can make right the wrongs suffered by these people over generations.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, in reporting on the Windrush generation, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member, said:

“We note that the new Home Secretary”—


as he then was—

“has instructed officials to take a sympathetic and proactive approach. A more humane approach to dealing with people who come into contact with the immigration enforcement system is indeed needed”.

We commented on the need for “quality assurance” and were told that a process for that was in place, although we have not heard details.

Willow Sims, who was mentioned by the noble Lord, appears to have run into trouble when a DBS check was made as long ago as last April. The Statement mentions referrals to the DWP. This is a matter for the whole of government. Quality assurance should apply to all departments that are involved. Are the other departments, including the DWP, exercising common sense and quality assurance and making referrals to the Home Office to sort out problems, which, as a matter of common sense, one would like to see?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Certainly, there has to be a co-ordinated approach to this whole Windrush issue, as the noble Baroness said, and quality assurance is absolutely paramount given what some of these people have suffered, some for many years. So she is absolutely right. The DWP is certainly one of the referral routes for the Windrush generation because some of them may have lost or not been able to receive benefits to which they are entitled. I totally take her point. Yes, my right honourable friend did say when he became Home Secretary that a humane approach was definitely the new culture within the Home Office.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I have learned about midnight flights for deportees to the Caribbean. I do not wish to interfere in any way with judicial processes, or even to suggest that, but would it not be a gesture of post-Brexit good will to declare what some countries have done: a carefully constructed amnesty leading into our next-stage immigration policy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Viscount should be clear about what and whom he means when he talks about midnight flights. I do not know that they take place at midnight, but the people who are set to be deported to the Caribbean are rapists, murderers and people involved in drugs and firearms. Does the noble Viscount really mean an amnesty for serious criminality?

[Viscount Waverley]

No, I was talking about a more general point that possibly, going into a post-Brexit situation, the Home Office might wish to consider amnesty for certain types of individuals. It may find that helpful. That is all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Viscount for his clarification. Certainly, the approach that we took post Windrush was that the task force took not a lenient but a generous view when people came forward to try to prove their status and right to remain in this country. There was not a culture of saying no, but of saying yes when people tried to get that documentation approved.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, the Home Secretary insisted in the other place that the planned charter flights to deport people from the UK to Jamaica would involve only foreign national offenders, and the Minister has just talked about the sorts of individuals involved. But how can the Government be sure that they are foreign nationals, bearing in mind that hundreds of the Windrush generation who were entitled to live in the UK have been wrongly deported, made unemployed and denied benefits? How can the Government give British citizenship to those brought to this country as infants or children and pay compensation to those wrongly denied work and benefits but at the same time deport offenders who have similarly lived all their adult lives in the UK and have no memory of living anywhere else?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord asked how we can prove that everyone who is the subject of the debate today is a foreign national offender. I am reliably informed—and I have asked repeatedly—that all the people who will be deported are foreign national offenders. The answer is yes. They are not only foreign national offenders but serious criminals. On the subject of people who came here as infants or children, obviously someone who was here before 1973 would have an assumed status, but just because you came here as an infant or child does not exempt you from the provisions in the UK Borders Act 2007, which the Labour Government rightly brought in to ensure that people convicted and sentenced to 12 months or more should be deported.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, will the Windrush unit, or something parallel to it in the sharing of expertise, be deployed to assist EU citizens? I am not thinking of those who have come since the free movement directive came into force 15 years ago but those who been here for many decades. One hears anecdotally about people—I saw a reference to someone the other day who had been here for 74 years. A lot of elderly people might be in a state of uncertainty and anxiety, and one sees the potential for similar issues to arise. Is the Home Office gearing up to deploy its expertise or personnel in those cases?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Certainly, the Windrush task force has stood ready to help anyone who has been here since before 1988 and would like to regularise their status. It has not precluded people from member states of the European Union, and that would include older people.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I asked the Minister earlier about the process of oversight by Ministers. Can she explain that to us? Is it the Home Secretary or a group of Ministers? Can we have their names? What is the process? Clearly, if things are going wrong—or not going wrong—we need to make sure that Ministers are in charge of the process.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord did ask me that and I apologise for not answering at the time. As he and the House will have seen, the Home Secretary took absolute ownership of this issue right from the start, but I am sure that he liaises with other Ministers such as the Immigration Minister.

Civil Partnerships, Marriages and Deaths (Registration Etc.) Bill

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 1st February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

May I beg permission to intervene quickly? I forgot to mention one point that arose from civil partnerships being converted into same-sex marriages. It is the issue of recognition by jurisdictions in other countries, particularly countries such as France and Germany that do not like the idea of retrospective legislation. Having raised this in the Chamber on a number of occasions, I know that it was a substantial issue. I think it has been resolved in France by a decision of the National Assembly, but can the Minister pick up that point, so that people are properly advised of what all the implications are if they convert?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I want to take this opportunity to commend my noble friend Lady Hodgson of Abinger, who is quite a trooper when it comes to pressing on regardless. I wish her well and hope that she has good rest over the weekend, having fought the good fight today to bring further equality with civil partnerships for opposite-sex couples.

I fully support my noble friend’s amendments. As she said, the Government had some concerns about the drafting of Clause 2, but not the intentions behind it. I am pleased that the drafting of this amendment has been improved in a way that is satisfactory both to the Bill’s sponsors and to the Government. I hope that we have arrived at an amendment that works for everyone and is able to deliver a comprehensive and effective opposite-sex civil partnerships regime at the earliest opportunity.

The Government are committed to equality for all, and we were pleased last October to announce our intention to extend civil partnerships to opposite-sex couples. As my noble friend has outlined, the amendments make it possible to equalise access to civil partnerships between same-sex and other couples by amending the eligibility criteria in the Civil Partnership Act 2004 through regulations.

A couple of noble Lords mentioned that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Constitution Committee expressed concerns about the drafting of Clause 2. I hope that our amendments go some way towards alleviating those concerns. The new clause now sets out in much greater detail how we envisage the delegated powers would be exercised, including dealing with issues such as parental responsibility, the effect of a legal change of gender, the financial consequences of a partnership and any conversion entitlements. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Cashman, about Henry VIII powers, but I hope that I can satisfy them at least in part. The noble Lord, Lord Cashman, is shaking his head—but perhaps when I have said what I have to say he will be happier.

The powers are needed to give opposite-sex couples equivalent rights and benefits to those enjoyed by same-sex couples. Simply changing the eligibility criteria in the Civil Partnership Act 2004 would not ensure this. Both the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lord, Lord Cashman—and, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Collins—were concerned about subsection (3) and the possibility of extending civil partnerships to siblings. We have no intention of using the subsection to extend civil partnerships to siblings or family members. My noble friend Lord Lexden, who lives in hope that one day we may do so, has clarified that. Subsection (1) makes it clear that the extension of eligibility applies to opposite-sex couples only, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, said, and, as drafted, would stand in the way of extension to siblings.

The noble Lord, Lord Cashman, asked me about other European countries—I am sorry, it was the noble Lord, Lord Collins. I do not know why I am mixing the two of them up today. Both their names begin with C. They are the dynamic duo.

[Lord Cashman]

It might help the Minister if she realises that the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, has rather less hair than the noble Lord, Lord Collins.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I know. I have observed that over time—but I am still mixing the noble Lords up.

I do not know the answer the question about other European countries, so I shall write to the noble Lord before Report and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

Any regulations made in the exercise of all these powers will be subject to affirmative resolution and therefore to parliamentary debate and approval.

The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, asked whether one could have a civil partnership and a marriage. It is not possible to marry if you are in a civil partnership: nor is it possible to form a civil partnership if you are already married. However, it is possible to convert a civil partnership into a marriage—but the civil partnership would then end.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

Having gone through the process—I am sure that the noble and learned Lord can correct me—I should clarify that what the 2013 Act provided for was retrospection. One converted one’s civil partnership into marriage. So the date of my marriage is not the date on which I converted but the date on which I entered my civil partnership—hence my question in relation to foreign countries. It had implications, particularly for those people concerned about Brexit who were married to, for example, French citizens—in my case, I happen to be married to a Spaniard. It was about recognition of that marriage being dated from the date of the civil partnership.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally understand that point and I stand corrected on the technicality of what the noble Lord said on that matter—but, as I said, I will write to him on the European question.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked me about conversion and religious protections—about the date et cetera. We are looking closely at a range of policy considerations, including matters relating to conversion and religious protections. We will take decisions on the nature and extent of conversion rights following the consultation to which the amendment commits us.

I will reassure noble Lords that the Government wish to extend civil partnerships to opposite-sex couples as soon as possible and are fully committed to bringing the necessary regulations into force before the end of 2019. It is a challenging timeframe, but, given the need for consultation and further parliamentary debates, it would be impossible to commit to an earlier date.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

I have been listening to the debate, but I admit that I have not paid close attention the Bill up until this point—so I may have missed something. I believe that the Minister said that the Government have no intention of extending the rights that the Bill will provide to sibling couples. Having listened to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, and to the Minister, I am not clear whether the amendment would prevent any future Government exercising that power. I do not doubt the Minister’s bona fides, nor those of any of her current colleagues, but I am a little concerned about those who might come after.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I understand it, the Bill is dedicated to this cohort of people only. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, might wish to correct me.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

Nothing in the Bill prevents the Government or anybody else hereafter seeking to introduce fresh legislation to avail sibling couples. All I am suggesting is that, under the order-making power here conferred by subsection (3), that power is not granted.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

It would need secondary legislation.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes.

[Lord Lexden]

Is my noble friend yet in position to give any details about the consultation exercise announced in October? She will remember that I raised this at Second Reading. Have there been any developments since then?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will keep noble Lords apprised of the exact consultation process and the timings thereof in due course. I fully support the amendments.

Amendment 1 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment and support it whole- heartedly, and I do not believe that we are striking a discordant note. I think the opposite. We are asking a question to which people are seeking an answer. I do not profess for one moment that we necessarily have it right, but it is really important that we have this debate, especially as we are now talking about marriage being dissolved so that people can go into another form of relationship. The nature of relationships is changing, and the state is catching up.

I say from the outset that no politician or parliament should dictate to a religious organisation what it should or should not do. In fact, that is precisely why we tabled the amendment. In the 2013 Act, we had what people have called the triple or quadruple lock. People said that it was unacceptable. The debates on the 2013 Act are fresh in my mind and some of them I found personally difficult, but I recognise that the Church of England in particular has been on a journey, travelling quite fast and, in my opinion, in the right direction. I also remember the debates on the Civil Partnership Act, when the Church of England opposed it. I know that the most reverend Primate has apologised for some of the positions that the Church took when that Act was proposed, referring to those debates.

I do not know whether the Church has been issuing information about the amendment but, for the first time in my life, I have received emails from local vicars across the country expressing disquiet—who do I think I am forcing this abominable Act on the Church? As I said, I do not want to force anything on any religious institution, but I recognise that people of faith are gay. That is not restricted to lay people, it embraces everyone.

On Second Reading, I deliberately quoted the most reverend Primate in my speech. I think it is worth repeating because it goes to the heart of the debate on the Bill. I said:

“In his recent book … the most reverend Primate … tells us that the Bible’s teaching on marriage is profoundly positive but, he notes, the social reality in modern Britain is radically changed today, with cohabiting, blended, single-parent and same-sex configurations. He continues: ‘If fluidity of relationships is the reality of our society, then this should be our starting point for building values, because all values must connect with where people are and not where other people might like them to be’”.


That is the question for the Church of England. If it does not catch up, people will go somewhere else. My noble friend would certainly welcome many such people, keen for their values to be recognised, into his church. Of course, the most reverend Primate talked about those values. As I said at Second Reading:

“According to the most reverend Primate himself, ‘in Christian understanding, the core concepts of households and family include holiness, fidelity, hospitality and love above all, because God is holy, faithful, welcoming and overflowing in love, and any human institution that reflects these virtues also in some way reflects God’”.—[Official Report, 18/1/19; col. 427.]


When we adopt the Bill, I am sure that civil partners will reflect those values; many people in same-sex marriages certainly hold those values, as we have heard. If the Church does not catch up with them, they will go somewhere else.

I recognise that the Church is on a difficult journey because of the strong beliefs referred to by the right reverend Prelate. Clearly, there are divisions there, as there are in our society, but I know that the journey we have been on since the introduction of civil partnership has transformed our society. I remember the debates on the same-sex marriage Bill. People said that it would be a disaster, that society would collapse and that the situation would be terrible. Well, that has not happened. People recognise the value of those relationships in making a much stronger society where we can love in communities.

Instead of setting a discordant note, I hope that asking the question today will help not only the Church of England but other religious institutions to catch up with the reality: people of the same sex can love each other in a very rewarding way.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who contributed to the debate. In particular, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford for his remarks, which give everyone hope in the context of today’s debate. I recognise the depth of feeling among Members of both Houses and people around Parliament, but I am afraid that I must resist the amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Collins of Highbury.

As noble Lords have said, the amendment seeks to amend the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 to remove the exemption for members of the clergy from solemnising the marriage of same-sex couples. The 2013 Act provided an opt-in system so that same-sex marriages can occur only on religious premises, or under religious rites, where the governing religious body has expressly consented. There is no requirement to give such consent.

We have always been clear that no religious organisation should be forced to marry same-sex couples—I think the noble Lords made that clear—or to host civil partnerships. A number of religious organisations have chosen to opt in by providing blessings and, again, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford gives us hope when he talks about the process of living in love and faith that the Church of England is currently going through. We hope that more organisations will do that in the future, but it is right that it should remain a decision for them. It is not for the Government to mandate this through regulations.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, raised this issue at Second Reading. He urged the Church of England to permit same-sex couples to have a blessing of their marriage. In response, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans said:

“I will resist the temptation to widen the debate beyond the scope of the Bill … I do so because I want us to focus absolutely on what we are trying to deliver”.—[Official Report, 18/1/19; col. 432.]


That is a good message for today but it does not preclude our having other debates on the points made by the noble Lord. I do not, however, believe that they are relevant today. Indeed, the danger is that they will confuse matters if we go beyond the scope of what we are trying to do.

This is a multifaceted Private Member’s Bill and we should keep it as simple as possible. I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Cashman]

My Lords, I should like to make two points. First, my name is also attached to the amendment. Secondly, inequality, by its very nature, is multifaceted. We should not back away from the challenge that it presents.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I apologise to the noble Lord; I completely forgot to mention him.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying these matters. It only remains for me to say in response to the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, Lord Collins of Highbury and Lord Cashman, that the wider debate about the nature of marriage is going on right across society, particularly in the Church of England, the Church in Wales and in other churches, and it will continue. I am grateful to noble Lords for stating their views, but they are not the focus of the Bill before us, so I hope we can give it the green light and the go-ahead to move forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I will be brief. I welcome those last comments because the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has today offered us a way forward that addresses the issue of devolution and the role of the Assembly. The journey that everyone has been on, which I referred to earlier, has also been taken by the DUP. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, is no longer here; when I used to visit Northern Ireland on many occasions as a trade union official, I would never have dreamed that I would see the DUP leadership on a Gay Pride march, but we have seen that. We have seen them engage with the LGBT community. So I am not pessimistic. This is a really good way to show the people of Northern Ireland that we want them to have equal rights, and this is a clear way of doing so without affecting devolution.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate on the amendment in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Hayward, Lord Collins and Lord Cashman. I have considerable sympathy with their arguments, as they will all know—I spoke to my noble friend yesterday—but I am afraid I cannot support the proposed new clause.

The amendment seeks to change the law of Northern Ireland to extend same-sex marriage to couples there within 10 months of the Act receiving Royal Assent. Equality, civil partnerships and marriage are all devolved matters, so it is for the relevant Administration in Northern Ireland to legislate to make any necessary changes to the law relating to civil partnerships and marriages, but I note with considerable interest the words of the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, on the matter of the petition of concern. That gives me hope that things might be resolved there in future. However, at this point in time, Northern Ireland has chosen not to extend marriage to same-sex couples. While noble Lords might disagree with that position, it is clearly a matter for the Administration in Northern Ireland. The Government have made very clear that same-sex marriage is a devolved issue and the Assembly is the proper place for such legislation to be considered.

The fact that there is not currently a functioning Government in Northern Ireland does not alter the principle that it is for the devolved Administration to legislate on such matters, although I note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. I appreciate that this situation is not ideal and understand noble Lords’ desire to make progress on this very important issue. Restoring the Executive remains a key priority for the Government, which will allow the Northern Ireland Assembly to take important decisions on issues pertaining to the people of Northern Ireland. I hope that, in light of what I have said, my noble friend feels able to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

The Delegated Powers Committee made a clear recommendation, and the reasons for it were clearly set out. I totally agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that this is not about saying that Parliament should not do these things but just, “Let’s wait for the evidence and then act”. We have the opportunity to act, so I am minded to support the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness for bringing forward her amendment, but I am afraid that I am not able to support it. Amendment 3A seeks to remove from the Bill an important provision that will allow for the extension to parents of stillborn babies the same transparent and independent investigation into their loss that is granted to the parents of a newborn baby whose life ends soon after birth. The power is needed because the provisions for the exercise of coronial powers are limited to very explicit duties. There is no provision for coroners to undertake investigations beyond this. A stillborn baby, having not lived independently of its mother, is out of scope of the investigatory duties of the coroner.

We will consult on this issue. It is our intention that, if we conclude at the end of the consultation that it is right for stillbirths to be investigated by coroners, their duty to determine who has died—and how, when and where that death occurred—will be extended to apply to specified stillbirths. Should that be where the consultation takes us, we will want to learn lessons from investigations into stillbirths, just as we do at the moment in child and adult deaths where, under certain circumstances, the coroner will produce a prevention of future deaths report.

Coroners’ powers to investigate a stillbirth would mirror those relating to other deaths, with powers to compel witnesses and require the production of documents and order medical examinations of the stillborn baby. The powers provided for in Clause 4(4) are intended to allow for the existing framework for coronial investigations to be extended to include the investigation of stillbirths. The existing provisions were thoroughly scrutinised when the Coroners and Justice Bill, now an Act, was debated in this House and another place. In exercising this power, the Lord Chancellor will be required to lay any regulations before your Lordships’ House for consent when the regulations amend primary legislation.

Clause 4 provides that the Secretary of State will report on the question of coroners investigating stillbirths. But, having consulted and produced that report, if the conclusion is that coroners should investigate stillbirths, the Government should then move forward in a timely way. Clause 4(4) provides the mechanism to do that, with the safeguards provided in subsections (5) and (6) appropriate to the changes that are in scope. The power is rightly limited by Clause 4(6), a sunset provision which sees the power fall away if it is not used within five years of the Secretary of State publishing his report.

Reforms to the way that health providers review stillbirths have been evolving, with significant developments under way. This period provides the flexibility needed should the final legislative proposals need to reflect these developments, while providing for the Government to act quickly if the report finds that this is what is needed.

I am sure that it was not the noble Baroness’s intention, but to amend the Bill to leave out Clause 4(4) without also leaving out Clause 4(5) and (6) and without further amendments to Clause 5(2) and (3)—which also reference the power provided through Clause 4(4)—would leave Clause 4 not in a coherent state, if I might put it like that. I am sure that my noble friend Lady Hodgson will agree to meet the noble Baroness in due course, but I hope that at this stage she will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger]

I thank the Committee for putting up with my very croaky voice today. I hope that I have not spread any of my germs around too much. I thank the Minister for clarifying how the enabling power in Clause 4(4) would be used.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to an Urgent Question asked in the other House yesterday.

“The landmark draft Domestic Abuse Bill, which we published last week, will help transform the response to these horrific crimes. It is aimed at supporting victims and their families and pursuing offenders, to stop the cycle of violence. The Bill will cement a statutory definition of domestic abuse that extends beyond violence to include emotional, psychological and economic abuse. It does not create new criminal offences in relation to domestic abuse, because those offences are already settled law—such as Section 18 GBH, coercive and controlling behaviour and even, in the saddest of cases, murder. The offences are all devolved.

In line with existing criminal law, the provisions of the draft Bill extend to England and Wales only. Contrary to the suggestion that may be in the honourable Member’s Question, there has been no change in the territorial application of the Bill compared with proposals in the Government’s consultation published last spring. This was made clear in the consultation paper and reflects the fact that the subject matter of the draft Bill is devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

We are currently in discussion with the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Department of Justice about whether they wish to extend any of the Bill’s provisions to Scotland and Northern Ireland respectively. We are seeking to establish a Joint Committee of both Houses as soon as practicable to undertake pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill, and I encourage all honourable Members to contribute to the process”.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer to the Urgent Question taken in the other place yesterday. The citizens of Northern Ireland deserve the same rights enjoyed by everyone else in the United Kingdom, but, today, they do not benefit from legislation on coercive control or stalking, and the controversy over the legality of abortion carries on. This is not right; it is unfair and it is unjust.

Can the Minister explain to the House why, in the absence of a functioning Executive in Northern Ireland, the Government are not proposing to extend the law as outlined in the draft Domestic Abuse Bill to Northern Ireland? Will she comment on suggestions that it is a device to prevent the importantly won freedoms and protections that I referred to earlier being debated and considered in Northern Ireland and extended there as part of the Bill?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will know that this is a devolved matter. Therefore, in order to for it be extended to Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Executive would have to request it through a legislative consent Motion. We know that this is a sensitive matter. We do not want to impose anything on Northern Ireland that is not already provided for. We respect the devolved process in Northern Ireland, which is why we have made the decision that we have. It has been a long-standing process in this area of law.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, this week 28 women will come from Northern Ireland to Britain to have health treatment that they should be able to get at home. They do so because the definition of abortion in Northern Ireland is so tightly drawn that it does not include cases of foetal abnormality, rape or incest. If they were to seek an abortion, they could face a sentence up to a maximum of life.

That is unacceptable. It is unacceptable that women in Northern Ireland do not enjoy the same human rights as those of us in the rest of the United Kingdom. Will the Minister comment on a Cabinet Office source being quoted in the Sunday Times as saying that they,

“foresaw the potential for the legislation to cause problems for the DUP”?

Does she think it right that the human rights of the women in Northern Ireland should be sacrificed to placate the DUP?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, this is nothing to do with placating the DUP; it is about the laws that are currently in place. Let me get back to what the Bill does: it tackles domestic abuse in all its forms. The matter is devolved. I recognise that it is an incredibly sensitive issue on all sides of the debate. Abortion legislation is devolved. I hope that a Northern Ireland Executive are established as soon as possible so that they can take on this legislation through a legislative consent Motion if they wish.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

Could the Minister identify whether there are any provisions in this draft Bill which, in the Government’s opinion, are not appropriate for enactment in Northern Ireland? Could she also confirm that this draft legislation was announced in the Queen’s Speech in June 2017? Can she give the House some indication of when she thinks this legislation will be enacted?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The draft Domestic Abuse Bill will be discussed for pre-legislative scrutiny in a Joint Committee of both Houses. That process should take 12 weeks, and thereafter the Bill should be introduced. As to whether any provisions are not appropriate for Northern Ireland, it is a devolved matter through legislative consent—as I have said. Northern Ireland can take up the provisions in the Bill, and that would be the process.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, it took three attempts yesterday to get a response from the Minister on the absence from the draft Bill of any measure to address the point made in the original consultation document—that insecure immigration status may also impact on a victim’s decision to seek help—and then the Minister’s answer left us none the wiser. Could the Minister now give us a clearer explanation why the draft Bill does not have any measure to address the problems faced by this particularly vulnerable group of women who are of great concern to organisations on the ground? Could she assure us that she will look at this issue further?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Bill does not differentiate between the types of women who might suffer abuse, but looks at how we treat the abuse itself. The noble Baroness will probably know that there is a destitute domestic violence concession, which is available to support people who may otherwise be forced to remain in a relationship with an abusive partner on whom they are financially dependent. I look forward to discussing those issues with the noble Baroness when the Bill comes to this House, as I am sure that she will be in her place challenging me.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, I asked the noble Baroness the Minister, Lady Vere, about the jurisdiction of this Bill as it applied to migrant women when it arose at Questions last week. I was heartened by her openness to consider the possibility of extending jurisdiction during the pre-legislative scrutiny stage. As my noble friend Lady Barker said, there is a whole group of British citizens to whom this legislation may not apply—women and men in Northern Ireland. Can the Minister confirm that the Government will be similarly willing to consider including the plight of every citizen in the pre-legislative scrutiny stage of the Bill?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness will know that the ETJ will cover offences committed by a UK citizen against someone abroad. I am certainly happy to have a conversation with the noble Baroness on extending the ETJ. I do not want to speak for my noble friend, but I am not sure that she would have committed to extending it.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I am the chairman of a forced marriage commission. Do the Government recognise that in forced marriages there is often domestic abuse, that the many victims of forced marriage who suffer domestic abuse need special care, and that the current refuges for them are not necessarily all that satisfactory?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble and learned Baroness is absolutely right; I have seen this for myself. I have seen people who enter into a marriage—not necessarily a forced one—and have no leave to remain. They cannot speak English, and their passports have been taken from them. I absolutely recognise the point that the noble and learned Baroness makes, and look forward to discussing it during the passage of the Bill.

[Baroness Gale (Lab)]

My Lords, the Bill is very welcome; it has taken a long time to come to us. Will the Minister confirm that, when it is passed, the Istanbul convention will be ratified? In the past she has said both that it would be and that it is a very narrow Bill.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will not only confirm that but thank the noble Baroness for all the work she has done on this. She has challenged me on this for probably the past three years. I hope that she and I together will get there.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

In the context of this draft Bill, can the Minister confirm that she welcomes contributions from noble Lords who want direct rule in Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That would be a matter for each noble Lord to articulate. We do not wish to see direct rule in Northern Ireland; we wish for an Executive to be re-established. It would be a terribly retrograde step to go back to direct rule in Northern Ireland. I think that the point the noble Lord is making is about imposing law in Northern Ireland without legislative consent—and we do not wish to do that.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much recognise the sensitivity of the issues mentioned by the Minister, and I am also a long-time supporter of devolution. But does the Minister recognise the bemusement of many, that in the greatest issue facing this country at the moment, Brexit, we have come to an impasse upon the insistence that there should be no difference between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom, yet on occasion after occasion, as in this case, Ministers come to this Dispatch Box and tell us that we cannot have the same laws in the Province as on the British mainland? Does the Minister see the paradox contained in that presentation?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord might point out that in some ways this is a paradox, but in other ways it is because we respect the devolutionary process for Northern Ireland, and therefore we would not want to impose laws on the people of Northern Ireland that they did not wish to take. However, we hope in this situation that they might wish to take this up through legislative consent.