Royal Navy: Conduct towards Women

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, we are all immensely proud of our Armed Forces and our Royal Navy, and pay tribute to their work to keep us safe at home and abroad. So it is extremely concerning to read recent reports of inappropriate behaviour, including sexual abuse, on the submarines providing our deterrent. Is the welcome report that the First Sea Lord has ordered into this to be made public? What is the timescale for that report and what is its remit? The recent survey by Sarah Atherton MP showed thousands of women had endured bullying, harassment or intimidation. How are the Government building the confidence needed in both the Royal Navy and our Armed Forces in general so that women have confidence in the system when they do come forward?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. As indicated, when these very serious allegations surfaced, the First Sea Lord acted immediately to express his profound concern and order an investigation. My understanding is that the investigation commenced on 24 October. There is a scheduled date of completion of 18 November, with the caveat that there is complicated work to be done. Helpfully, the complainant is, I think, prepared to appear before the inquiry. To reassure your Lordships, the investigation will include an individual from outside Defence, who is currently being selected for his or her independence, probity and integrity, who will be alongside that investigation.

On the House of Commons Select Committee report, I have regarded that as a pivotal influence in the MoD as to how we respond to behaviours within the Armed Forces. To reassure your Lordships, the committee made in total 53 recommendations and conclusions, and I am delighted to say that the MoD has accepted 50 of these. There were three that it did not accept on a matter of policy. We are busy implementing and have already substantially implemented these recommendations. We made an update report to the committee in July, and I will appear before the committee next Tuesday afternoon to further confirm the MoD’s position. Great progress has been made, but that does not in any way diminish the sense of horror when we read of allegations such as those which have surfaced.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Atherton report suggested that 62% of women in the Armed Forces who replied had experienced bullying, sexual harassment, sexual assault, rape or some form of harassment or discrimination during their military careers. It is good to hear that the MoD has responded to many of the recommendations of the Atherton report, and the Minister’s response in the House of Commons to Tobias Ellwood on the Question about the Navy does say that this is an historic allegation. Could the Minister reassure the House, and any women currently serving in the Armed Forces, that they are not at risk of rape or other serious crimes—because the legacy is not good?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very important point. I think it is important to remember that nearly 90% of the respondents to the committee would recommend the Armed Forces to other women. I found that reassuring, but that is no reason for complacency on the part of the MoD. I can say to the noble Baroness that over the past year, since we responded to the Select Committee report, enormous changes have been introduced: we have zero-tolerance policies on sexual offending—people will be discharged if they are convicted; we have a zero-tolerance policy on behaviour below the criminal threshold—if they are found guilty of unacceptable sexual behaviour, there is a presumption of discharge; we have also dealt with the issue of instructors and trainees—any sexual abuse in that relationship leads to mandatory discharge; we have also vastly improved the service complaints system.

While it is discomforting for the MoD to see these negative reports appearing, it does mean—and I have first-hand information about this—that women with increased confidence in the complaints system are now reporting behaviour. I welcome that. It may not be pleasant for the MoD to hear about these things, but I would much rather that women had the confidence to bring these incidents out into the open, so we can address them.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, these are obviously deeply serious matters, whether all the allegations and reports in the media are correct or not. Can the Minister reassure the House that the work of the investigating team mentioned in the Statement—and also what she calls the large-scale changes in policy in the defence area in the last year—are really going to lead to meaningful, lasting and decisive change?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I very much hope that they will. I have described to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, where the teeth are in a lot of the changes that have now been made. There are real repercussions for miscreants now if they transgress and fail to observe the high standards of behaviour that we expect. But perhaps helpfully—to reassure my noble friend—we are in fact now publishing the annual reports on sexual complaints within the Armed Forces. We published in March of this year the single service sexual harassment surveys. We have also instigated a D&I programme to monitor and measure the efficacy of our initiatives, to make sure that they are delivering. In April of this year, we mandated climate assessments across Defence, and that is to try and ensure—as my noble friend rightly identifies—that the changes we are making are delivering the improvements we hope.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will recollect that, in the interim report into the behaviour of the Met police, the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, revealed that hundreds of police were getting away with breaking the law and with misconduct. The reason for that was largely because, despite the importance of patterns of behaviour to the investigation of sexual predators and other alleged offenders, the misconduct procedures in the police force deliberately ignored patterns of behaviour and dealt with each allegation separately. They therefore could not corroborate each other. Can the Minister give us the assurance that the military misconduct and disciplinary procedures do not proceed on that basis—because it is a deliberate loophole to protect the institution?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, the dramatic change which has been taking place within the MoD, leading to changes of policy and legislative change, has been accompanied by leadership training and education. One reason why women are now prepared to come forward is because, in improving the complaints system, we have introduced an independent route separate from the chain of command. Women now feel a confidence not just in reporting but because the system is robust and will deliver them a result and something will be done. I very much hope that, with the climate assessments mandated across Defence, any pockets of behaviour that were emerging and looked unacceptable would be rooted out and we would become aware of them. The system certainly is there to improve that transparency.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, when I was working at the Ministry of Defence in 2011, the First Sea Lord came to see me, wanting to lift the ban on women serving in submarines. I said that I was not sure it was a totally good idea to put men and women in the very confined space of a submarine, but he explained that the problem was that they could not get enough male volunteers. It was as simple as that. Most men and women on submarines do an excellent job. They are not guilty of harassment. It is a very difficult job. I ask noble Lords to imagine being confined in a metal tube under the sea for three months at a time on some occasions. They deserve our respect and gratitude. Can my noble friend please pay tribute to the majority of submariners, male and female, who serve us day in, day out, on the continuous at-sea deterrent? Of course, we must support the Royal Navy investigation to stamp out this activity, but the majority of people in the Submarine Service are doing a damn good job.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that very helpful observation. I am sure that we all join him in praising the work of the great majority of submariners. To introduce a little perspective to this, before these recent allegations surfaced, for its own information the Navy launched a conduct and culture review, to get a sense check of any current issues within the Submarine Service. That review is being led by Colonel Tony de Reya, a Royal Marine who is head of the Royal Naval conduct cell, and which will report by the end of the year. I end by saying that HMS “Artful”, an Astute submarine, is a finalist in the inclusive team award for the Women in Defence UK Awards 2022. That reaffirms my noble friend’s important point that very good things are happening in our submarine service.

Estonia: UK Troop Levels

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the United Kingdom’s troop levels in Estonia.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK has worked in close partnership with Estonia to ensure that our force posture is correctly calibrated for the current security climate. We will continue to collaborate with Estonia on an enduring basis to implement the commitments offered by the UK at the NATO Madrid summit, and to ensure that our troop levels are commensurate with Estonia’s NATO security needs. The implementation of our summit commitments will increase the overall capability of our forces in Estonia.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the number of UK troops in Estonia is being halved? Estonia is a key NATO ally, on the front line of NATO and its border with Russia. Therefore, is it any wonder that the Estonian Government are extremely disappointed with us, with their Foreign Minister telling our media that this is an issue of existential security for Estonia? As we are a senior member of NATO, and given Estonia’s need for and call for existing UK troop levels to be maintained, is it not time for a rethink, given that Estonia’s security is our security?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the second battle group currently deployed was always designed to be temporary. It was placed there at the start of the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia. The noble Lord will also be aware that we are enhancing the lethality of the permanent EFP battle group, so we will maintain divisional level assets in country, we will augment these with episodic deployments of battle-winning capabilities, we are enhancing our EFP HQ, which will be led by a brigadier, and we are committed to the development of Estonian national divisional C2. So the overall commitment by the UK is being enhanced and strengthened.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, it was reported last week that Russia had carried out simulated nuclear drills. Do our troops in Estonia have NBC protective clothing and equipment available to them? In the event of the use of a Russian nuclear weapon, has NATO spelled out specific retaliatory actions and do any of them involve the use of British military personnel?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the attitude of NATO, and of the United Kingdom and our allies, is to invite Russia to de-escalate this rhetoric. Frankly, it will be destabilising and unhelpful if it continues to be intensified. The noble Lord will also be aware that, in connection with our overall commitments to NATO and the contribution we make not just to the enhanced forward presence but to equipment and personnel support, we will ensure that our troops are equipped appropriately for whatever task might confront them.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom has a long-standing relationship in defence in that region, particularly with Norway. Will we co-operate with our Nordic and Baltic partners to make it quite clear to Russia that any incursion in any of the Baltic states is unacceptable, and that part of that must be to keep a substantial military presence in the Baltic states, which of course include Estonia, where we have a particular interest?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that we work closely with our friends in the Baltics, not least in Norway and Sweden and with our other presence in that area. He will be aware that, with our NATO commitments, we are very much committed to having a mobile and enhanced lethality in the area. As I said to the noble Lord on the Liberal Democrat Benches, that is designed to ensure that, whatever threat confronts us, we are able to play our part in seeing it off.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, we have every reason to support Estonia, having helped it regain its independence in 1922. However, is not Estonia’s immediate, real problem that it is being bombarded every hour of every day by Russian cyberattacks and fake attacks which aim to undermine and demoralise the whole country? Can the Minister assure us that this kind of defence—which, in the modern world, is probably the most important of all—is being thoroughly reinforced by us to enable Estonia to withstand Russian undermining?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That is a indeed a very important component of the threat that we face. My noble friend will be aware that assisting countries to deal with cyberattacks is, again, part of our contribution to our UK and NATO commitments.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that Britain has won a lot of credit in northern Europe by the commitment that we have made to Estonia? This is a very important part of our NATO commitment and in the modern Baltic states, in Poland and in the Nordic countries, this has been noted. Does she agree that it is not good optics for the UK to so drastically cut the level of its force commitment to Estonia? It is very positive that Sweden and Finland are joining NATO, but does she not agree that there is a risk that they may, in time, take over the lead in this area of commitment to defence?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The intention of Sweden and Finland to join NATO is very welcome. Anything that cements the co-ordination and collaboration of countries with like-minded principles and values in the Baltic area is to be welcomed. Our future force posture in Estonia currently comprises 994 UK personnel, but it will rise to 1,020 when the battle group rotates in March. That is in addition to the enhanced details of capability that I outlined to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, is there not at least a case to maintain the current numbers until the NATO divisional headquarters is fully operational next year?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord will understand that, were we to retain that second battle group in Estonia, it would require significant extra investment and additional temporary winterisation of infrastructure and storage—and, of course, it would have a detrimental operational impact on the overall flexible deployment of the Army. We have a very good relationship with Estonia, as I said earlier. We have a robust and enhanced capability that we are making available to Estonia. I think that is a matter for commendation.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, why does the UK now have the smallest Armed Forces it has had at any point since the Napoleonic wars? Is it really realistic for the UK to play a full role in confronting the threat from Putin’s Russia with Armed Forces of that size?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord will understand, looking back to the integrated review, what became very clear was that the review identified that it is not just numbers we have to talk about but capability, technical advancement and what we equip our Armed Forces with. That now includes sophisticated technologies such as artificial intelligence and robotic activity. There is a whole manner of ways in which we are taking forward our troop presence and the capability of the Army that goes beyond thinking simply in terms of numbers.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has made it clear that the doubling of the battle group in Estonia was a result of the invasion of Ukraine. Now that it has been halved, does this mean that the risk to Estonia has been reduced?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend will be aware that in the MoD we constantly assess and respond to threat as the character of that threat emerges. What we did at the inception of the illegal invasion of Ukraine was to offer support where there might have been a vulnerability. It is important now, in conjunction with NATO and our other allies in the Baltic area, to work sensibly to collaborate—but nothing in any way diminishes our commitment to support that area.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her well-deserved reappointment as Minister of State in the defence department—even though she is very good at putting me in my place when I am trying to cause trouble. Today I have a very serious question in relation to Lithuania. She will understand the problems with Kaliningrad and Belarus effectively surrounding Lithuania, and the line in between potentially creating problems. Can she tell the House what discussions the UK Government have had with other Governments about what we can do to make sure that Lithuania as well as Estonia is protected?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind comments. I sometimes feel that when he offers polite and complimentary remarks to me I should count my fingers afterwards—but I absolutely take his remarks in the spirit in which they are given, for which I thank him. It is a serious situation, and how we address the threats confronting Lithuania is all part of the overall NATO and UK approach to the Baltic area. We do not in any way seek to underestimate or diminish the threat confronting Lithuania, but I think that with the NATO summit plan that was announced back in the summer of this year, with the commitments being made by the individual NATO partners, not least the United Kingdom, we are offering up a very strong reassurance to the Baltic countries that help is to hand if they need it.

Ukraine

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to repeat a Statement made in the other place earlier today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence, Mr Ben Wallace, on Ukraine. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Deputy Speaker, with permission I would like to make a Statement on the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

We are now 239 days into the operation that President Putin planned to conclude within a month. Active Ukrainian offensive operations continue in the north-east, near Svatove, and in the Kherson region in the south. If Ukraine successfully advances on Svatove, a key road and rail junction, it will constitute another severe blow to the logistical viability of the northern sector of Russia’s Donbass front.

Yesterday, the new Russian commander in Ukraine, General Sergey Surovikin, offered an unusually candid public statement of the difficulty of the Russian position in Kherson, on the right bank of the Dnipro river. Pro-Russian occupation forces have now started to withdraw some categories of civilians east of the river. They claim 7,000 people have already departed, and aim to move another 10,000 a day, though we cannot yet verify those figures. Russia’s limited hold on the west bank of the Dnipro looks shaky. They are likely more seriously considering a draw-down of their forces in the area.

Russia’s ground campaign is being reversed. It is running out of modern long-range missiles and its military hierarchy is floundering. They are struggling to find junior officers to lead the rank and file. Meanwhile, their latest overall commander has a 30-year record of thuggery marked even by the standards of the Russian army. What will worry President Putin is that the open criticism is inching closer and closer to the political leadership of his country. Russia has strong-armed Belarus into facilitating its disastrous war, but the newly announced ‘Russian-Belarusian Group of Forces’, supposedly to be deployed in Belarus, is unlikely to be a credible offensive force. It is far more likely that Russia is attempting to divert Ukrainian forces from their successful counteroffensives.

As Russia’s forces are pushed back, they are resorting to directly striking Ukraine’s critical national infrastructure, especially the power grid. It should be noted that these facilities have no direct military role, but the impact is multiplying the misery of ordinary Ukrainian citizens. Notably, these strikes are partially being conducted by loitering munitions—so called kamikaze drones. Despite Tehran’s denials, these weapons are being provided by Iran, another sign of the strategic degradation of Russia’s military.

In the wake of these ongoing and indiscriminate attacks on civilian infrastructure, the UK continues to give air defence missiles to Ukraine. We are proud to be the second-largest donor of military equipment, and last week I announced that the UK would be providing additional air defence missiles to Ukraine to defend against Russian missile strikes. These include AMRAAMs—air-to-air missiles—which, used in conjunction with the NASAMS air defence system pledged by the United States, are capable of shooting down cruise missiles. We continue to provide sophisticated electronic warfare equipment which gives additional protection against long-range drones and missiles.

Supporting Ukraine remains the Ministry of Defence’s main effort. We are helping Ukraine to replenish its stocks to keep up fighting. As winter approaches, we are developing a package to support Ukrainians through the winter, including 25,000 sets of winter clothing, so that they are more effective on the battlefield than their poorly trained, badly prepared and ill-equipped Russian counterparts, many of whom have been mobilised at short notice with little training, equipment or preparation.

As part of Operation Interflex, we are also continuing to train Ukrainian recruits in the United Kingdom alongside our Canadian, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, Lithuanian, New Zealand, Norwegian and Swedish partners. We have so far trained over 7,000 soldiers and are currently on track to train 10,000 by the end of the year, with up to 20,000 to follow in 2023.

Furthermore, we have worked with allies and partners to establish an international fund, which will ensure a continued supply of essential lethal and non-lethal military support to Ukraine, as well as manufacturing capacity. To date, we have received pledges totalling approximately £600 million and continue to work with international partners to secure further funding. Today, we will launch the first urgent bidding round to identify and procure critical capabilities which can be rapidly deployed to Ukraine.

I would also like to share with the House details of a recent incident which occurred in international airspace over the Black Sea. On 29 September, an unarmed RAF RC-135 Rivet Joint civilian ISTAR aircraft on routine patrol over the Black Sea was interacted with by two Russian armed Su-27 fighter aircraft. It is not unusual for aircraft to be shadowed and this day was no different. During that interaction, however, it transpired that one of the Su-27 aircraft released a missile in the vicinity of the RAF Rivet Joint, beyond visual range. The total time of the interaction between the Russian aircraft and the Rivet Joint was approximately 90 minutes.

The patrol was completed and the aircraft returned to its base. In the light of this potentially dangerous engagement, I have communicated my concerns directly to my Russian counterpart, Defence Minister Shoigu, and the Chief of the Defence Staff has also communicated his concerns to Moscow. In my letter, I made it clear that the aircraft was unarmed, in international airspace and following a pre-notified flight path. I felt it was prudent to suspend these patrols until a response was received by the Russian state.

The reply by the Russian Ministry of Defence on 10 October stated that it had conducted an investigation into the circumstances of the incident and that it was a technical malfunction of the Su-27 fighter. It also acknowledged that the incident took place in international airspace. The UK Ministry of Defence has shared this information with allies and, after consultation, I have restarted routine patrols, but this time escorted by fighter aircraft.

Everything that we do is considered and calibrated with regard to ongoing conflict in the region and in accordance with international law. We welcome Russia’s acknowledgment that this was in international airspace. The UK has conducted regular sorties of the RAF Rivet Joint in international airspace over the Black Sea since 2019, and we will continue to do so. For security reasons, I will not provide further commentary on the detail of these operations, but I assure the House that this incident will not prevent the United Kingdom’s support for Ukraine and resistance to Russia’s illegal invasion.

The UK Government’s position remains unchanged, with consistent support, I am pleased to say, from across the House. We will continue to support the Ukrainian people to defend their homeland, and the rules-based system. It has protected all nations from such naked and unprovoked aggression over the last 75 years; it was also helped and shaped by Russia in that time. This Government will always defend it because these rules-based systems are fundamental to who we are, and provide peace and security for this country and our partners and allies. I commend this Statement to the House.”

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for the tenor of their remarks? It is a great pleasure to stand as a Minister at the Dispatch Box with business as usual. That is where we are at the MoD, that is what we are getting on with, and it would be perilous if we were distracted from that core mission. I want to reassure your Lordships that I have not just a deep friendship with the Secretary of State for Defence, but the most profound respect for him, as I think everyone has. I wish to reassure your Lordships that in the MoD, we consider that we have a vital task. Every Minister there has their head down and is getting on with it.

I will try to deal with some of the points raised. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, sought reassurance about our resolve, and whether we will remain steadfast. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, echoed that sentiment. Let me say, without a shadow of a doubt, “Yes”. We have demonstrated our political and national will to support a country in peril and in need, and the victim of a quite outrageous breach of international law with this illegal incursion. We have demonstrated by deed what we are prepared to do by ourselves and in conjunction with NATO partners and with other allies across the globe, as we assist Ukraine in defending itself against this quite appalling and totally unjustified invasion.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said that President Zelensky should be assured. The MoD has very good and close relationships with Ukraine. I am absolutely certain President Zelensky knows we understand that, while our tumult within the United Kingdom is troubling and distracting, to put things into context, the problems confronting him are of a very different magnitude. None of us should ever forget that, living in democracy which we do. Democracies bring ups and downs, triumph and difficulties, but I know that in this Chamber there are persons of all political hues who have seen that at first hand. Our job is to never take our eye off what we are here to do as public servants and try to do that to the best of our ability. I am sure President Zelensky is aware of that.

Both the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised the issue of defence spending. I can confirm that the Secretary of State is committed to the objective of 3% of GDP by 2030, and I entirely support that objective. He made it clear in the other place, earlier today, that it is not just a question of 1 January 2030 arriving and us looking for 3% of GDP. For it to make any sense whatever, because of the nature of the defence budget and the magnitude of it, there has to be a phased increase. That is what the Secretary of State will fight for, that is what he believes is necessary, and he is supported by his Ministers in that objective. While it would be for any new Prime Minister to put his or her stamp on that objective, I think there is a universal understanding across government of the essential importance of what the MoD does, and the need to ensure that it is funded as required. Otherwise, it cannot do the job it is tasked to do.

On the issue of the power grid and the disruption by Russia of Ukrainian energy supplies—an issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, also raised in the context of humanitarian aid—as your Lordships will be aware, a lot has been happening. The UK is providing support for Ukraine’s early recovery through the multi-donor partnership fund for a resilient Ukraine. All of this is extremely important. Through UK export finance, His Majesty’s Government have made £700 million available in financial guarantees to help rebuild homes, bridges and other critical infrastructure destroyed by the war. This facility is part of UKEF’s £3.5 billion capacity to underwrite loans to Ukraine and to support UK businesses exporting to Ukraine with credit and insurance. I hope that indicates to your Lordships that, while the MoD obviously is focused on the delineated area of military support to help Ukraine defend itself, on that wider front a great deal of good work is being down by the UK, and in conjunction with partners. Everyone is cognisant of the need to be sure that there is a sustainable way of helping Ukraine, when this war comes to an end, to rebuild its country.

The issue of diplomatic engagements with Iran was raised. That is for my noble friend Lord Ahmad to respond to, as is it very much a matter for the FCDO. I remind your Lordships that severe sanctions have been applied by both the UK and the United Nations against Iran. We continually review how we can persuade Iran to reconsider what it is doing. I have to say that while Iran may be a problematic country in many respects, historically it is actually one of honourable traditions and pride in its international position. I would have thought it was appalled to see the footage of what these drones were achieving as they were delivered to innocent citizens of Ukraine, and that that might want to make Iran consider just where it is in this.

There was an important question on whether we can keep providing equipment. Yes, and not only have I on previous occasions listed the extensive types of equipment advanced but the Secretary of State, in the Statement I have just repeated, detailed further provisions of equipment, all of which is important to Ukraine’s ability to defend itself.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, raised Estonia. I can say that the 2nd Brigade—the battle group—was put in at the start of the Ukraine war, but it was only ever temporary. We made that clear and it is being withdrawn, but the fundamental presence remains. It is important to look at this across the piece, in terms of what we are providing to Estonia and in the surrounding countries. We are expanding our national headquarters in Estonia. There will be the balance of a full combat brigade, allocated at high readiness for rapid deployment across the Baltic region. There is an increase in the warfighting capability of our forces already based in Estonia. We are helping with the development of the Estonian national divisional C2 through training and mentoring, while seeking opportunities to embed Estonian staff officers within the UK divisional HQs. We are regularly in touch with Estonia. The Secretary of State spoke very recently to his counterpart in the country, and Estonia is very positive about what the UK is doing there.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, also raised the issue of people being moved by the Russians in the areas referred to in the Statement. I do not have details of where they are going. That is something we shall try to monitor, but it is a serious issue and, clearly, there must be concerns about their welfare and how they are being looked after. He also asked about the phrase used in the Statement of criticism “inching closer” to Mr Putin. By general acknowledgement—recently, the head of GCHQ made a statement in a radio interview about the situation in Russia—the anecdotal evidence we are picking up is that the Russian population is beginning to understand that there is more to Russia’s illegal war than meets the eye. I think many are getting reports back directly from family members; they are finding that distressing and beginning to question what is going on.

On the Secretary of State’s visit to the United States, at this critical time we think it vital that we keep closely and personally in touch with our most important allies, of which the United States is one. I know from speaking to the Secretary of State that the discussions were very constructive and very useful. They were an important opportunity to make sure that everyone understands the backdrop of what is happening in Ukraine. The House will understand that I cannot disclose further information about these discussions.

On the RAF incident above the Black Sea, there is really no more I can add to what I have already said. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked if I was aware of other incidents. I am not, and I think they would have been brought to my attention if they had occurred, but the matter was handled sensibly and wisely by the Secretary of State. The response the Russian Government gave was regarded as professional and, while there is much to condemn about Russia, I have said before that MoD maintain civilised levels of communication with our counterparts in Russia. That is evidence of it but there is no more I can add about the incident.

Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about China. It is a very important question. We continue to engage with China at all levels in Beijing, London and at the United Nations. We can seek only to influence and make clear to China that we are watching it, as is the rest of the world and whether its actions contribute to peace and stability or fuel aggression. We expect China to stand up for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity and uphold its commitment to the United Nations charter.

I have tried to deal with the points raised and I hope I have managed to address the majority of them. I will, as usual, check Hansard. If I have omitted to deal with something, I shall write.

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[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, on this of all days it is a very good thing that we are able to express our national unity behind the Government’s stance on Ukraine. I thank the Minister for the very detailed way in which she tried to answer the questions of my noble friend Lord Coaker and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith.

I have two questions. One relates to the inevitable problem of money and the Treasury. Has the MoD concluded its discussions and negotiations with the Treasury on how the armaments that we have sent to Ukraine will be replaced and on what timescale? Do we know that our defences will not be weakened as a result of what we have done? Is there a commitment on the part of the Treasury—especially given the Statement coming up in 10 days’ time or so—to replace all the kit and armaments that have been sent there? When is that happening?

My second point is not an MoD issue. Is the noble Baroness aware of what steps have been taken across Europe with our European friends and allies, and by us, to assist the Ukrainians practically with keeping their critical infrastructure, particularly their power infrastructure, going throughout the winter? I happen to have been in Ukraine in winter and it is a pretty horrific prospect if they are unable to heat people’s homes. What practical steps have been taken to help them counter the threat from Iranian drones?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his questions. In relation to what has been supplied and how we pay when we come to replenish it, the MoD has proceeded on the basis that it will be paid for by the Treasury. That has been a negotiated position and it is one I would expect to be obtempered and to continue.

On Ukraine’s infrastructure, I indicated to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, some of what the UK was trying to do. As I observed earlier this week, the EU has shown commendable willingness to group together to support the endeavour, discussing with friends and allies how we best make an impact on supporting Ukraine. I reassure the noble Lord that the UK is working closely with the EU on providing Ukraine with military equipment, cyber resilience and humanitarian and economic support—not least with sanctions, energy resilience and countering Russian disinformation. There is work going on. It is perhaps a broader issue than for the MoD, and I am sure it is one that my noble friend Lord Ahmad would be very pleased to take up with the noble Lord.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

If there are no other Back-Bench speakers, I would like to ask a question on behalf of my noble friend Lord Campbell, who is absent from the Chamber. I think he perhaps misunderstood the timing of a Statement repeat rather than an Urgent Question repeat. I believe he was going to ask the Minister whether it would be possible to answer a question that both he and I have raised on a couple of occasions recently about the ability of the United Kingdom to continue to supply weapons to Ukraine and about the supply-chain issues. Clearly, it is something on which reassurance would be important.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I find it difficult to see in the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the demeanour of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, but as a proxy she is very capable. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, is concerned and there is legitimate interest in how we replenish, how we fund and how we keep supplying. I can say that we continually manage and analyse our stock of weapons and munitions, so when the Secretary of State makes an announcement, it has been carefully considered before it is made public. We make these decisions against commitments and threats, because we have our own national security to think of.

We also have to review industrial capacity and supply chains, both domestically and internationally, so that informs not just the numbers of munitions we have granted in kind to the armed forces of Ukraine but the avenues of supply. I can say that industry has been extremely supportive in all of this, and, of course, the noble Baroness will understand that the UK does not work in isolation. We of course have discussions with our partners and allies and then we have discussions with the industry suppliers because it is quite a complicated jigsaw, as the noble Baroness will know. It is a complicated jigsaw because there are a lot of pieces that we keep having to make sure are fitting together. I want to put on record that industry has been very supportive. We work bilaterally with industry, but we also work closely with our international partners, as we are trying to make a coherent presentation and to avoid duplicating what one another is trying to do.

Ukraine: NATO

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours [V]]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they next intend to meet NATO officials to discuss progress in the conflict in the Ukraine.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom continues to engage closely and regularly with our NATO allies as a key part of our response to Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. The Secretary of State for Defence met his NATO counterparts on 12 October, where allies reiterated unequivocal support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. We will continue to act alongside our NATO allies to counter Russian aggression.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, Ministers repeatedly blame the war for the economic crisis, and I agree. Can we have an assurance that with rampant inflation here at home, volatility in the international money markets and millions worldwide, including in the United Kingdom, facing deprivation, there are no circumstances whatever in which the UK would dispatch in isolation, or with others in NATO, combat military forces of any nature to engage in military action in Ukraine? We need to protect the international economy and seek to restrain Russian’s infrastructural bombing campaign before it is too late.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, since the illegal invasion of Ukraine occurred the United Kingdom has been at the forefront of assisting the country in defending itself. We have been working closely in conjunction with our NATO partners and with our other bilateral partners and friends within the EU. That concerted effort is the best way, I think, to seek to reject President Putin’s illegal incursion; certainly the resolve of all countries to support the rule of law and respect the right of sovereignty is determined and resolute.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, will the Minister give us an update on Russia’s use of drones yesterday, which caused such devastation among civilian populations? Is there any way we can give additional support to Ukraine to shoot these down? Is it not time that we urgently seek an international treaty on the use of drones, for everybody’s sake?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I agree with the right reverend Prelate that the consequences of the drone attack on Kyiv have been devastating. I think that everyone has watched with horror as again civilians are targeted, people are killed and others are seriously injured. The right reverend Prelate will be aware that part of the United Kingdom’s support to Ukraine has been air defence systems. NATO, plus other bilateral states, with Ukraine, have been doing their best to support Ukraine in what it needs. We are cognisant of the danger presented by this form of attack by Russia. We are also aware that the equipment supplied to date has been greatly assisting Ukraine in seeing off this kind of threat.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

I think one way of discouraging the use of these murderous drone weapons supplied by Iran is to make it clear to Iran that this could have very serious and disastrous consequences for Iran itself. I want to ask my noble friend whether she would encourage at any such meeting that is going to take place a very careful examination of the changing position of China and foreign policy experts in Beijing. Has she heard reports that China is becoming increasingly worried that its control and influence over Mr Putin is diminishing, and that it is very fearful that he is going to use tactical nuclear weapons? Will she make sure that we make full use of any change of opinion in China? Without China’s support, there really is a good chance that Moscow might change direction.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very important point. I reassure him that the UK continues to engage with China at all levels in Beijing, London and the United Nations to make clear that the world is watching what China chooses to say and do and whether its actions contribute to peace and stability or it chooses to fuel aggression. We expect China to stand up for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity and to uphold its commitment to the United Nations charter. It has an important role to play and we want to be sure, as a sovereign state, that we keep open the lines of communication so that we can convey the very relevant points to which my noble friend refers.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, as a once young naval soldier in Germany and a former Defence Minister, I fully support western Governments in providing arms to Ukraine. Since membership of NATO involves mutual obligations well beyond this, will the Government publish a paper spelling out the pros and cons if NATO membership is granted to Ukraine?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble and learned Lord is aware, the United Kingdom is sympathetic to Ukraine’s desire to join NATO. We are supportive of that aspiration, in line with the 2008 Bucharest summit declaration. However, at the end of the day, any decision on membership is for NATO allies and for aspirant countries to take.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

The right reverend Prelate mentioned the drone attacks yesterday. What assessment have the Government made of the impact on Ukraine of the loss of power—about 30% of power has been lost—and is the West able to support Ukraine to keep the lights on?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, the best that we can do, along with our allies and partners, is to support Ukraine in the defence of its territory in trying to see off the barbaric and illegal attacks to which it has been subjected by Russia. The principal concern has probably been the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, for understandable reasons. We welcome the efforts of the IAEA and United Nations staff to be on site, and we hope that will enable a robust inspection to be concluded. We are cognisant of the risk, and we will do everything that we can to continue to help Ukraine to see off the threat.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

My Lords, the interest of the House in the progress of the military situation in Ukraine is entirely understandable, but can the Minister reassure the House that the Government recognise the two very separate objectives of conflict termination and conflict resolution, and that it is not in policy formulation that we aspire to resolve the conflict through military means alone?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

It has been clear from the outset that our desire—or mission, if you like—was to support Ukraine in its attempts to defend itself against this illegal aggression and invasion of its sovereign territory. That is our role, as it is the role of NATO and other partners. As to the future, and whether the conflict can ever be resolved and negotiations embarked on, that is absolutely for Ukraine to determine.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Was it not one of the beliefs of Putin, following his illegal invasion of Ukraine, that the members of NATO would split and start arguing among themselves? Is not one of the Government’s prime objectives, supported by all of us, that we maintain NATO’s unity in the face of that aggression? Can the Government reassure us that, at every opportunity, they will reiterate that to all our NATO allies?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord’s point is well made. He will realise, from the evidence available to us, that in the actions of NATO members—not only in their regular engagements but at the summit in Madrid and the consequent developments from that, whether it was the comprehensive assistance plan or the development of DIANA, the accelerator for the north Atlantic—there is an absolutely united resolve to support countries that find themselves the victims of illegal activity, illegal aggression and illegal invasion. There is no question that the resolve of the member states of NATO is absolutely steady and stable. We are standing shoulder to shoulder to ward off evil—because that is what we are talking about.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that there have been very staunch attacks on civilians and a great number of attacks on hospitals, as well as attacks on schools and stations? When these are all put together, is it not very difficult to try to imagine that these are anything other than crimes against humanity?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I have no hesitation in agreeing with my noble friend. We have all been appalled by the barbarism of Russia’s attacks in Ukraine, not least in Kyiv. It is quite clear that deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure are war crimes, and those responsible will be held to account. The ICC, with support from countries such as the UK, is doing a remarkable job in ensuring that crimes are investigated, evidence is gathered and the basis is laid for successful prosecutions.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, what concrete steps have the Government taken in their efforts to restore the stocks of missiles and other weapons which we have generously and properly supplied to the Government of Ukraine?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As I have observed to the noble Lord before, we continually manage and analyse our stocks of weapons and munitions against commitments and threats. We also review industrial capacity and supply chains, both domestically and internationally. These considerations have informed the numbers of munitions granted in kind to the armed forces of Ukraine and their avenues of supply.

Armed Forces (Covenant) Regulations 2022

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Goldie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Armed Forces (Covenant) Regulations 2022.

Relevant document: 11th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have delivered on their manifesto commitment to further incorporate the Armed Forces covenant into law by introducing a new duty in the Armed Forces Act 2021. The Armed Forces (Covenant) Regulations 2022 implement key provisions of the new duty by doing two things: bringing supporting statutory guidance into force; and defining “relevant family members” of service members and former service members for the purposes of that duty.

In the 11 years since the Government put the Armed Forces covenant on a statutory footing, we have seen excellent work across the UK in support of the Armed Forces community. However, there remained concerns that some members of the Armed Forces and their families continued to experience disadvantage when accessing public services, particularly as they moved around the country. This was largely due to a disparity in the level of awareness of the covenant among local service providers. To address this issue, the Armed Forces Act 2021 introduced a legal duty on specified public bodies to have due regard to the covenant principles when exercising relevant public functions in the fields of education, healthcare and housing. These are the most commonly cited areas of concern for the Armed Forces community.

Bodies in scope of this new duty will be required to consider the needs of the Armed Forces community when developing policy and making decisions in these key areas. In this way, the duty will raise awareness of the covenant and its principles, which in turn will help to ensure that members of the Armed Forces community are treated fairly.

Regulation 2 brings into force the statutory guidance supporting the new duty. When exercising relevant public functions, the bodies in scope of the duty must have regard to this guidance, as set out in the Act. The statutory guidance will help these bodies understand what is required of them under the new duty. It does this by explaining the principles of the covenant and how and why members of the Armed Forces community may experience disadvantage, and by providing good examples of mitigating actions.

The covenant principles relate to disadvantage faced by servicepeople, including the relevant family members of service members and former service members. Regulation 3 therefore defines who is a relevant family member in respect of the new duty. Quite deliberately, a broad approach was taken in this definition, as a family group may look very different depending on circumstances, and those outside what might traditionally be defined as family may well be impacted by service life. Where family members are affected, it is usually due to their cohabitation with, or dependency on, a service member. This has, therefore, been used as the basis for the definition, which extends beyond immediate family members.

By assisting public bodies to identify groups impacted by service life, including family members, to whom they must have due regard, the guidance will be a key tool in raising awareness of issues faced by the Armed Forces community, and will help promote better outcomes for them when accessing key public services. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall start with my noble friend Lord Jones’s remarks. He mentioned the reserves and the covenant affecting military families. My son-in-law is an active member of 4 Mercian reserve. He was recently in eastern Europe and will be away again in a couple of weeks’ time. Given that my noble friend Lord Jones mentioned the reserves, I felt I should mention that for obvious reasons.

I thank my noble friend for his remarks. The point he made about Armed Forces Day is well made and speaks for itself. I agree with everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, said, the contributions that they have made to where we are now with the covenant, and the challenging questions they have put to the Government to try to improve it.

We too welcome the regulations relating to the Armed Forces Covenant as far as they go, but before asking some questions I shall remind the Committee, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, did, that there was much debate about the covenant as the Armed Forces Act 2021 passed through your Lordships’ House. Many of us called for the expansion of the covenant to all areas of public policy and for it to apply to the national Government and the devolved Administrations. Alongside that we said that having “due regard” to the covenant should include other areas of public policy as well as education, healthcare and housing, which were outlined.

The Government resisted those calls, and we therefore felt the covenant was a missed opportunity by being too narrow, particularly the failure to place a duty on the national Government in the way that they placed a duty on others. They also failed to define what “have due regard” meant, how members of the Armed Forces community can seek redress if they feel let down and how the covenant is to be enforced. The Minister knows that we welcome the regulations and the new duties they place on specified bodies and persons to have due regard to the principles of the covenant when exercising certain statutory functions in the areas of healthcare, housing and education, but it could have gone further. Having said that, these are important regulations and will make a difference.

I have some specific questions. As some of the responders to the guidance consultation asked, why does the guidance not include prescriptive actions that bodies in scope should follow to demonstrate that they are meeting the duty of having due regard? The guidance notes the value of good recording as a means of demonstrating having due regard to the covenant. However, as the Government themselves note in the guidance that they have published, it is voluntary. Why was there never a statutory requirement to record actions that show and demonstrate that a public body is having due regard to the covenant?

How, therefore, more generally—the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in particular, alluded to this—is the covenant to be enforced? What redress is there for an individual, family or organisation if they believe that the covenant is not being properly followed or implemented? As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, asked—and I will come also to something else mentioned by the noble and gallant Lord—what action will the Government take to publicise their new regulations to ensure that awareness is as wide as it should be?

I completely endorse the position taken by the noble and gallant Lord, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that paragraph 14.1 in the regulations is crucial. In response to the amendments made and the ping-pong that took place on the Armed Forces Act, the Government have said—to be fair to the Minister, she will have argued this within the MoD—that they will come forward in 2023 with a report on how the covenant has operated. I say to the Minister that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, and I will be looking quite carefully at how paragraph 14.1 is implemented and how the Government meet their commitments. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, said, it is a particularly important point.

I come to something that the Minister has explained to me before, but it is important that this is put on the record. Tucked away in regulations will often be things understood by MoD officials and so on. The regulations that we have before us cover England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the British Overseas Territories, except Gibraltar. Will the Minister explain why Gibraltar is excluded from these covenant regulations? Clearly, Gibraltar is extremely important to us as a base for our Armed Forces. It seems a little strange. I am sure there will be a good reason for it —some treaty or other that makes its inclusion unnecessary —but it is important to have it in the record to help those who read our deliberations to understand why that “except Gibraltar” is there.

These questions highlight once again the importance of paragraph 14.1, which basically says that the Government will assess how well the covenant operates with respect to due regard and whether there are other areas of public policy that could usefully be added to the scope of the Act as it is now. We all look to see what happens under paragraph 14.1. These regulations are an important step forward. We welcome them; we just wish they could have gone a bit further. The implementation will be everything.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for what admittedly has been a fairly short debate but not in any way lacking in quality and penetrating questions, which is entirely what I would expect from the contributors. I shall deal first with the comments of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig. I thank him for his very useful historical context of the evolution of the covenant. It is worth remembering the journey that the covenant has travelled. I accept that progress may at times have been somewhat plodding, but I feel that, in recent years, we have got to a good place. These regulations are the manifestation of the important progress that has been made.

I pay tribute to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, for his perseverance in drawing attention to the role of central government and whether it should be brought within the ambit of the covenant statutory duty. I remember that we had informed and interesting exchanges at the time the Armed Forces Bill went through this House. We certainly felt that this was not an issue that should be summarily dismissed as being without merit. Our concern was that we were already biting off quite a lot in terms of what we were introducing in that Bill and in what was to be further covered by delegated legislation, and we did not want to bite off more than we could chew. The provisions now to allow for a review are meant to reassure, and I shall say a little more about them.

The review will consider the roles of the UK Government and the devolved Administrations in conducting the functions already in scope of the duty. It will also consider the extent to which they currently consider the covenant principles, as well as the benefits and costs of bringing them into scope. As the noble and gallant Lord is aware, the reason why I resisted his persuasive blandishments to include the scope of central government in the Armed Forces Act was because we did not think that it was quite within the scope of the original Bill. The Government are responsible for setting the overall strategic direction and national policy but they do not directly deliver the relevant healthcare, education and housing services to citizens.

Let me give your Lordships a little more information on the review itself. Members of Parliament will have the opportunity to assess and comment on the review in the debate on the 2022 covenant report. The Government have been working with stakeholders to establish an open and transparent evaluation process by which to investigate the evidence about whether new policy areas should be added to the scope of the duty; that point was specifically raised by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, who was naturally interested in what criteria might be deployed to assess this. Potential additional functions will be assessed against clear and robust criteria that have been established and agreed with covenant stakeholders in order to provide advice to the Secretary of State, with whom the final decision rests.

To clarify, a blanket inclusion of all UK Government and devolved Administration bodies would not be appropriate to include within the list of specified bodies to which the duty applies because the “due regard” duty applies to specified functions that are precisely defined in law. Due to the broad-ranging work of the UK Government and the devolved Administrations, it would be impractical to seek to define precisely such functions for these bodies.

One of the questions asked by, I think, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, during our debates on the then Armed Forces Bill concerned why the duty was not extended to central government because it has a duty of care to the Armed Forces. However, the purpose of the covenant duty is to raise awareness among providers of public services of how service life can disadvantage the Armed Forces community in accessing key public services. That is why we have focused on these three areas of health, education and housing. As the noble and gallant Lord is aware, central government is directly responsible for the Armed Forces and the MoD has always looked after the welfare of service personnel. As he knows, there are various ways in which the Government can be held to account, from the requirement for Ministers to appear at the Dispatch Box and explain what has been happening to the facility for Members to put down Questions and seek debates. There is a variety of methods available for parliamentarians to call the MoD to account for what it has been doing.

Accompanied by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, the noble and gallant Lord raised the issue of central government. I tried to cover the points that were made in my comments addressed to him. One other point that he mentioned concerned why the guidance refers to those who are ordinarily resident in the UK. The “ordinarily resident in the UK” restriction applies only to veterans. This restriction on veterans is in the Act, which is why it is in the guidance. The guidance clearly says that serving personnel are in scope

“wherever they are located—in the UK or abroad.”

Veterans who live overseas and are having issues accessing public services due to their service career will find that those issues are best raised with the relevant authority or embassy in the area in which they live because such services fall outside the responsibility of the UK Government.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

Mentioning embassies in that sense seems to bring in the possibility of central government interests and the FCDO.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

It may do so, but only tangentially, because the FCDO has a UK government responsibility to UK citizens abroad, which is a standard duty. It is why we have a diplomatic presence, and it is the role of embassies and consulates to assist these citizens. I suggest that that is different from placing a broad duty of care on central government in relation to the Armed Forces Act.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, specifically raised Regulations 3(3)(a) and (b) and the use of the phrases

“is akin to a relationship”

and, similarly,

“formerly akin to a relationship”.

I said in my opening remarks that the attempt to define family members had deliberately been made broad because, as a consequence of service within the Armed Forces, we often find circumstances which confront personnel that will not affect them in civilian situations. We are trying to be as flexible as possible.

The noble Baroness legitimately asks about there being a disagreement with armed service personnel; what if the veteran says, “I think that I was in what was akin to a relationship, and that is why I should get a house” or “be entitled to particular medical support”? It will be for the applicant who is seeking help or a particular service, in conjunction with the deemed provider of that service, to discuss whether they can resolve the matter. The regulations are not meant to be phrased unhelpfully—quite the opposite. They are meant to be as broad as they can be to ensure that this widespread blanket of support reaches as many people as possible.

This brings me to a point pertinently raised by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about enforcement—the teeth that can apply to this legal duty and how providers operate it. Enforcement is a complex area in general and I will deal with it in detail. Before I do, let me address the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Jones, and a final point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on dentistry. That very important issue will come under the health “due regard”, but it will not cover private dentistry, only the public service provider of dentistry services.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jones, for a very positive contribution in which he praised Armed Forces Day. I agree it is an important opportunity to acknowledge our service personnel and veterans. Within my own area of Scotland, it is something we celebrate with great respect, pride and pleasure. I was interested to hear what happens in the noble Lord’s area of Wales, as clearly Armed Forces Day has a pan-United Kingdom appeal, which I am pleased to have confirmed.

The noble Lord particularly raised reservists, and I was interested in his observation that they are perhaps underacknowledged. If he looks at the provisions regarding Future Soldier—the new model for how we see our military, infantry and army going forward—he will see some very exciting opportunities in there.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I think I was addressing the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Jones, when we were summoned by Division Bells. I was talking about the role of reservists. Following the important review of reservists carried out by my noble friend Lord Lancaster, some really helpful and interesting virtues were identified. One quite simply is this: we have among our reservists skills that we might not regularly have in the regular Army. One of the desires is to ensure that we can offer reservists a more flexible career opportunity: that is, if we have need of a particular skill and a reservist possesses it, we can draw them in for a fixed period that they can work with and that their employer can cope with. That is why Future Soldier creates a template for an exciting future for our Armed Forces. Reservists will play a critical role in that.

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, also asked about engagement and consultation, specifically the matter of focus groups. The engagement that took place in drafting the guidance was comprehensive. We worked with our stakeholders to develop the statutory guidance, but we engage with a wide range of groups, including the devolved Administrations, covenant partners across government, the Armed Forces community, local authorities, relevant ombudsmen, and the service charity and welfare sectors. That gave us a very broad basis on which to frame our guidance.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

That is a very broad answer. I did ask a specific question, but I know that time is of the essence.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I looked at the Explanatory Memorandum. My understanding is that focus groups are designed specifically to encompass those groups that have an interest and have knowledge. I hope it is clear from the list that I just enunciated to the Committee that there has been very broad consultation, importantly, with the people who know about this, understand it, and have a stake in making sure that it works.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, raised a number of points, some of which I have already addressed, but particularly the important issue of the statutory duty of “due regard”. As a former lawyer, I well understand why he homed in on what exactly that means. The purpose of the statutory guidance is to help organisations understand and discharge their obligations. On enforcement, the duty we have created does not mandate particular outcomes. It is very important to be explicit about that. That is because it is not within the ability of the MoD to control what the deliverers do, whether they are devolved Administrations, local authorities or health boards. That is not what we want to do. It would therefore be inappropriate for the guidance to include a level of prescriptiveness that goes further than what is already set out in law.

We expect that, by raising awareness, we will reduce disadvantage. We do not seek to penalise or police public bodies because we are not in position to do so, but we do not want to do that anyway; they are autonomous and freestanding, and have their own responsibilities to discharge. If there was a disagreement or dissatisfaction, we imagine that the starting point would be that complaints would be pursued in the normal way, whatever that was for a health board, a hospital, an education facility or a housing complaint. I think that the vast majority of complaints would be resolved in that manner. Certainly in the first instance, any grievance should be pursued through the internal complaints process of the relevant local authority or public body. If the matter is still unresolved, I suggest that the relevant ombudsman would be able to consider the matter if the complainant did not think that the authority had followed its own policy correctly. In our work supporting the implementation of the new duty, we will certainly promote these mechanisms among our Armed Forces community.

As a last resort, and this would be a very heavy hammer to deploy, the opportunity to challenge an alleged failure to comply with the duty would be by way of judicial review. That would obviously be an unattractive prospect to many, but it could well be a legal option available to a class group of people if they were dissatisfied. To take the example of dentistry from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, it might very well be that the provision of dentists is not a problem in one part of the UK but it might be a huge challenge in another. I imagine that if veterans or service personnel in that area felt aggrieved then they could very easily put pressure on, and they might very well have resource to bring a class action. Remedies are there.

It is important to remember that the duty does not require certain outcomes to be achieved, just that these public bodies need to consider the covenant. That will lead to better policy and decision-making in relation to the Armed Forces. I hope that reassures the noble Lord that thought has been given to this and that we anticipate the system being workable and, for providers, deliverable.

Finally, the noble Lord asked me about Gibraltar. I recall—no doubt he will correct me if I am wrong—writing to him about this. My recollection is that Gibraltar is outwith the scope of the Act and not within its jurisdiction. However, it can apply the Act using its own legislation: technically, if it wishes to invoke in respect of its own forces provisions that we have introduced in the Armed Forces Act, it can use its own legislative powers to achieve that. So it is a technical issue of being outwith the jurisdiction of and not encompassed by the Act.

I have tried to deal with the points that were raised. I hope that I have covered them. If I have omitted to deal with anything, I will gladly undertake to write to your Lordships, of course. In the meantime, I thank noble Lords for their contributions.

Motion agreed.

Armed Forces (Service Court Rules) (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 2022

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Goldie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Armed Forces (Service Court Rules) (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 2022.

Relevant document: 11th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

I feel almost Gilbertian in this Gilbert and Sullivan-esque interchanging of roles.

My Lords, this statutory instrument consists of three changes to the rules that apply to the service courts: to provide an overriding objective for court martial, the Service Civilian Court and the Summary Appeal Court; to give the Director of Service Prosecutions responsibility for warning prosecution witnesses of trial dates; and to increase the representation of women on court martial boards.

The first of the measures in this statutory instrument implements a recommendation of His Honour Shaun Lyons’ review of the service justice system, which was published in 2020. The review recommended the introduction of an overriding objective for the court martial, based on Part 1 of the Criminal Procedure Rules for England. A similar rule has been used in the civil and criminal courts in England and Wales for some time. The overriding objective in the criminal courts is that cases are dealt with “justly”, which encompasses considerations such as the need to acquit the innocent, convict the guilty and ensure that cases are dealt with efficiently and expeditiously. The participants in the case are also subject to this duty as well as the court, which assists with active case management. This measure will mean that judge advocates and participants in proceedings in the court martial, the Service Civilian Court and the Summary Appeal Court are subject to similar duties and will assist case management in those courts.

The second measure in this instrument also implements a recommendation of His Honour Shaun Lyons’ review. The measure amends the current rules on notifying witnesses to give the Director of Service Prosecutions, rather than the Military Court Service, responsibility for warning prosecution witnesses of trial dates. This change will align practice in the service courts with the civilian criminal justice system for England and Wales, where the role is performed by the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Finally, this instrument inserts a new Rule 34A into the court martial rules, which requires the court administration officer to ensure that, if any lay members of the court are servicepersons, there is at least one man and one woman on the board. I emphasise that we are confident that the court martial, in its current form, is a fair, efficient and effective court, which delivers justice for our Armed Forces. However, due to the lower numbers of women compared to men serving in the Armed Forces, the chances of a woman being selected at random to serve on a court martial board are significantly lower than those of a woman being randomly selected to serve on a jury in the civilian system.

We want to redress that imbalance by means of this procedural adjustment, which aims to improve and enhance the representation of women on court martial boards. Rather than it being left to chance that a woman will be randomly selected, this change will ensure that there will always be at least one woman on every board. This will bring the court martial closer to the civilian criminal justice system, so that servicewomen’s voices, experiences and perspectives are part of the decision-making process.

This important change has its origins in a recommendation made in the highly regarded Defence Sub-Committee report Women in the Armed Forces: From Recruitment to Civilian Life. That sub-committee was chaired by the recently appointed Minister for Defence People and Veterans, my honourable friend Sarah Atherton. In the government response to the report, the MoD undertook to carry out work to increase women’s representation on court martial boards related to sexual offending. I am delighted to say that the Government are going further than the report recommendation, as we think it is right to ensure that women are better represented on boards dealing with all types of cases.

I reassure your Lordships that the MoD has very carefully examined the impact this will have on women who serve in our Armed Forces. It is true that this measure will mean that women are slightly more likely to be selected to sit on a court martial board than currently. The total number of women required to populate all three services’ boards is 192. This is an increase of 48 more women per year than the current 144, and is 4.2% of the population of women eligible to sit on a court martial board, due to rank and seniority requirements. The total number of men required to populate the three services’ boards would be 672, which is 1.7% of the population of men eligible to sit on a court martial board.

This difference, however, will not result in women being treated less favourably than men. Service as a lay member of a board lasts only around two weeks and is a normal part of the duties of any senior NCO or officer. It can also be useful experience for future command, as commanding officers play a key role in the service justice system. To mitigate the risk of the same women being selected repeatedly, we will also introduce an exemption of 12 months for those women who have already sat on a court martial board for more than five working days.

We believe that increasing the representation of women on court martial boards ensures that they are always part of the decision-making process in service justice. It will better reflect our society and reinforce the important role that servicewomen have, not just in our Armed Forces, but in the service justice system. I beg to move.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, in supporting this draft SI and accepting that revision is not an option, I still have a couple of points to raise. The overriding objective introduced in all three types of service court seems, on first reading, to be almost entirely motherhood and apple pie, or should almost be taken for granted as sound administration. But I accept that, in the legal world, it is perhaps better to have every likely “i” dotted and every possible “t” crossed. It also follows a recommendation of his honour Shaun Lyons, whose knowledge and expertise in service law and procedure is well recognised and respected. It is right, therefore, that this new section is inserted.

However, I noted, although the accompanying memorandum does not mention it, the extra Rule 3A(2)(h)(v), which is not in the criminal court’s rules. It reads,

“the need to maintain the operational effectiveness of Her Majesty’s forces.”

I imagine some printing amendment will replace “Her” with “His”, but this raises the question of who decides. Presumably the Defence Secretary is responsible for such a judgment, but can he tell a court marital what to do? It may be so unlikely that the situation never arises; in which case, why put it in at all?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, once again we have had an interesting debate. In many respects this has been a more technical SI than the earlier one, but none the less, it has generated points of interest and I will do my level best to address them.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, raised the very important issue of who decides. This duty created by the instrument to consider operational effectiveness is vital, and the noble and gallant Lord was good enough to indicate to me where his area of concern lay. I have tried to do some research into it, and I will try to deal with the points that he raised.

It will be for the judge advocate alone to decide what should or should not be done to take account of the need to maintain operational effectiveness. However, it is important to put this provision in context. The overriding objective is that cases be dealt with justly. Some slight mischief was articulated about this being motherhood and apple pie. The essential components are good, but that is because we are replicating what already exists in the civilian criminal justice system, and it works. I make no apology for transporting that into our court martial procedures because I think these are virtuous and will greatly improve our court martial system.

The reference to operational effectiveness does not change the overall objective that cases be dealt with justly. Nor does it affect in any way a defendant’s right under Article 6 of the ECHR. It is there to recognise that the services courts deal with cases where defendants, board members and witnesses will generally be services persons, who will often have other important and sometimes unpredictable commitments.

The role will give judge advocates the flexibility to take this into account. The kind of scenario where we expect it to be relevant would be, for example, where the date of a trial might need to be brought forward or, indeed, delayed, or a witness might be allowed to give evidence via live link. Certainly, I reassure your Lordships that the Judge Advocate-General was consulted and agreed with the use of the phrase “operational effectiveness” in the context of this change.

I thank the noble and gallant Lord for raising an important point. I have tried to address it. The fact that the Judge Advocate-General is content with the position I think provides significant reassurance.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

Just to be clear, is the Minister saying to the Committee that the Judge Advocate-General has the say and, regardless of whether the Secretary of State agrees with him, the Judge Advocate- General wins?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That is what I am saying. Indeed, I add to that by observing that it would be profoundly undesirable if the Secretary of State, as a government Minister, were getting involved in the discharge of justice under what should be an independent criminal justice system, albeit within the services justice environment. It would be most undesirable for the Secretary of State to get involved. The Judge Advocate-General alone will decide what should or should not be done to take account of the need to maintain operational effectiveness.

I think I have dealt with the commentary of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, about why this is phrased as it is. It is not some cosy set of aspirations; it really is intended to deliver what has been working well in the civilian criminal justice system and to try to ensure that our services criminal justice system benefits from that. I thank her for her observation about the absence of her colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, who is, of course, always a welcome presence in these debates where legal issues arise. I am sure that he would have had some pithy observations to make on the technical content of the Sis, but I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for confining her remarks to general observations.

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, asked some specific questions, including how often the board sits. Court martial boards sit in assizes of two weeks with 24 periods in any year; that is, 48 weeks a year. The noble Lord also asked whether the measure of extending female representation on the court martial board should be extended to the judge advocates. There is a mix of men and women judge advocates now; we have both men and women. The role is being introduced to align better with juries where women are represented in civilian courts, but there has been under-representation in the analogous role within the services justice system.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for his kind remarks about the SIs and where we have got to in delivering improvements for Armed Forces personnel. I particularly noted his phrase, “commend the Government”. It is certainly not something I have been hearing very regularly in recent times, and I thank him for that. On his reference to Article 6 of the ECHR, the MoD has consistently shown a desire to comply with human rights legislation and conventions, and the convention is an important part of the framework within which we operate; hence the various references to Article 6 throughout the SIs.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, also asked about the composition of a court martial board in general; I think that his question related to lay personnel. This measure will have an impact only on women in the Armed Forces at ranks of OR7 and above. To help your Lordships, I asked for clarification on this. In the Royal Navy, the rank of OR7 is chief petty officer; for the Royal Marines, it is colour sergeant; for the Army, it is staff colour sergeant; and, for the Royal Air Force, it is flight sergeant/chief technician. Service persons below that rank are not eligible to sit as lay members. Eligibility is currently set at OR8 personnel but from January next year it will be OR7. We are broadening the scope in the hope that this will facilitate the presence of more women. Also, as I said, there will be a 12-month exemption for women who have already sat. That is important, because it is a sizeable chunk out of otherwise operational time. If any woman has sat on a court martial board for more than five working days, this provision will prevent them repeatedly sitting on boards.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

This is a really important point, which, as I said, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and I were discussing. If somebody outside this Committee read our proceedings and saw the word “lay” they would assume that these people are members of the public, even though the instrument deals with non-service personnel and the military courts. The Minister putting this on the record is quite helpful for those who read our proceedings to understand exactly what we are talking about.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. We are sometimes guilty of using vocabulary in the environment with which we are all familiar. These are lay members who are not legally qualified; they sit as a presence roughly comparable to a jury. The noble Lord is right that they are “lay” not in the sense of any members of the public coming in but in the sense that they are in the Armed Forces and not legally qualified.

I have tried to address the points that were raised; I hope that I have managed to do so. I thank your Lordships for your contributions. This instrument takes us another step forward in making our service justice system stronger, better and fairer.

Motion agreed.

Armed Forces: LGBT Veterans

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to restore the pension rights of LGBT veterans who were discharged or dismissed as a result of the pre-2000 ban on homosexuality in the Armed Forces.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, service personnel discharged or dismissed in respect of their sexuality retained their accrued pension rights. The Ministry of Defence and Office for Veterans’ Affairs have jointly commissioned an independent review into the impacts and implications of such discharge or dismissal, and insights into the experience of veterans and the recommendations that the review provides will be carefully considered by the Government when considering how to address the legacy of LGBT historic hurt. The review underlines the Government’s unwavering commitment to our veteran and LGBT+ community.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

I first pay tribute to my noble friend for facing up to the terrible injustice that gay servicemen suffered for so long. In a debate nearly a year ago, she said that the Government intended to

“swiftly put in place a series of steps to address past wrongs.”—[Official Report, 2/11/21; col. GC 348.]

The review now being carried out by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton—the best possible person for the task—is a hugely important step. But should the Government not start paying full pensions, without further delay? Did they note the comments from Fighting with Pride, the charity that supports LGBT veterans, in January:

“Thousands of LGBT+ veterans still live in shame and poverty”?


Is it not the Government’s task to address this as rapidly as possible?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Many in your Lordships’ Chamber will have much sympathy with what my noble friend is saying. I observe that the Armed Forces Pension Scheme is not concerned with the terms and conditions of employment surrounding the circumstances of dismissal; that is to do with the environment in which Armed Forces personnel were engaged and served. There is no provision in the Armed Forces Pension Scheme that is discriminatory on the basis of a member’s sexuality, and it is not possible in law to amend the scheme rules so that they have retrospective effect.

At the heart of the review by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, is consideration of the impact of the policy observed by the Armed Forces between 1967 and 2000 on Armed Forces personnel who were dismissed on the grounds of sexuality. As my noble friend observed, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, is ideally placed to carry out this review. We look forward to his conclusion and recommendations, which we will consider very carefully.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I first raised this issue with the Defence Select Committee in 1991. Some 31 years later, we are still waiting for this grave injustice to be addressed. While I wholly support the important review by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, I ask the Government to think again and take immediate and specific action to address this issue of pensions faced by an ageing population.

Relatedly, when will the Government commence provisions in Part 12 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 to allow service personnel and others who were prosecuted on the grounds of sexual orientation to gain the justice they deserve?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and to my noble friend Lord Lexden for their unstinting commitment to these issues. To start with the first part of the noble Lord’s question, I do not think there is much I can add to what I have already said to my noble friend. It is within the scope of the inquiry by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, to look at all the impacts on personnel who were dismissed. They may include social, family and financial impacts. That is why it is very important that we let the noble and learned Lord conduct his inquiry and then observe his recommendations.

On Part 12 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, the scheme is led by the Home Office and the MoD. We are committed to bringing those provisions into force as soon as possible. Officials are already working on the necessary technical criteria—and they are fairly complex—to ensure that the legislation ultimately works as smoothly as possible. We expect to launch the extended scheme in the first quarter of 2023.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

Is the Minister able to say when this review might be published?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The review period for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, is from June this year to May next year.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, two factors in particular will impede progress on this area. One is that we have incomplete military records, often completed in code and with euphemism. We also know that former military staff are overrepresented in the homeless population. Will the Government please ensure that the review by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, can have access to specialist historians who are adept at reading military records, and that they are enabled to work with a vast range of LGBT and homelessness charities to track down the people who have suffered the worst effects of this policy?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can tell the noble Baroness that the call for evidence that commenced in August has been extended to 1 December to provide the fullest opportunity for people to contribute. The review team continues to meet stakeholders. The chair has been meeting senior veteran charity officials and senior military officers to gain their insight. The team has also been investigating historical records to develop an in-depth chronology of the ban. The efforts to obtain testimony and make sure that the review is fully informed are very extensive.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, my question is further to that asked by my noble friend Lord Cashman and the similar question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. Similar to the decision to pay interim compensation to the victims of the infected blood scandal while that inquiry continued because of the urgency of the case, is this not a case where a presumption in favour of generosity should be made so that compensation can be paid in some form to the victims of this dreadful decision now? The moral case is plain and Ministers, including our Minister, have repeated it. Surely the MoD’s own records would make such a restitution relatively easy to administer.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

In fact, we do not have the numbers. That is one of the difficulties. As the noble Lord is probably aware, in the early 2000s, the MoD settled a number of claims from former members of the Armed Forces who had been dismissed for being LGBT. The compensation awarded to claimants consisted of damages for loss of earnings, loss of pension and injury to feelings.

We must not pre-empt what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, is undertaking. We should leave him as an independent reviewer to carry out his full scope of inquiry, analyse the responses, come to conclusions and decide what recommendations are important for the Government to look at. There is a need for consistency in how we seek to redress these issues.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has told us that the report by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, is due in May next year. At the moment, it is a stain on our country that thousands of LGBT servicepeople were discharged from service prior to 2000. Can she confirm that, when that report is published next May, the Government will respond to it quickly, take account of whatever the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, comes up with, and that we right this wrong?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that the Government have undertaken to look very closely at the recommendations of the report by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. As has been indicated to previous questioners, there is a desire on the Government’s part to rectify what has been wrong. No one is disputing that a wrong took place. However, we want to address it extensively, sympathetically and consistently.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s decision to ask the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, to conduct this review was rightly widely welcomed, as have been the campaigns by my noble friend Lord Lexden, the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and others in your Lordships’ House. What are the Government doing to get the message out to encourage the largest number of people possible to come forward to inform that review? Are they satisfied that good numbers are already doing so?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can say to my noble friend that widespread information has been provided about how to give evidence and where the portals are to provide that evidence—it might be in person, virtually or by written submission. I understand that the review has already received more than 500 responses from across the whole of the UK. Indeed, we expect numbers to exceed 1,000. That is indicative of a very healthy level of interest and a very welcome willingness to contribute to the review process.

Ukraine

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I stress once again our full support for the Government’s actions to support Ukraine against Russia’s illegal invasion. Yesterday, the Secretary-General of NATO made it clear that the recent missile attacks on many Ukrainian cities, including Kyiv, killing and injuring many innocent civilians, including children in their playgrounds, represent a significant escalation of the conflict. Can the Minister update the Chamber on the further provision of more anti-missile and anti-air capability, as requested by the Ukrainians? Can she also say how quickly that can be provided to enable the Ukrainians to deal with more attacks of this nature?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for the tenor of his remarks, which is greatly appreciated. I think we all agree that what we witnessed from Russia in Ukraine was absolutely barbaric; it was brutalism, it was unforgivable, it was completely unacceptable, and indeed it constitutes a condition of war crimes. As the noble Lord will be aware, the UK has been very supportive and selective in the equipment that it has been offering. For example, we have found that artillery has played a huge part in this conflict, and we have supplied that. As he identified, air defence systems are extremely important. Monday’s attack shows that we were absolutely right to make bolstering Ukraine’s air defences a priority for UK military support. We are liaising on a daily basis with the Ukrainian Government, and we continue to respond to the requests to supply more defence and military equipment. I will be crystal clear to your Lordships: the MoD is utterly resolved to continue that support.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches, I also associate myself with the comments made from the Opposition Front Bench that we strongly support the Government’s response to support Ukraine from the outset of the conflict six months ago. In his response yesterday, Minister Shelbrooke gave a list of the commitments that the MoD has already made. The noble Baroness has just reiterated the MoD’s commitment to continue giving as much support as possible to Ukraine. While that is welcome, we need some reassurance that the MoD has enough ammunition and other supplies—either available or coming on stream—so that these commitments can actually be delivered. Can the Minister reassure us of that?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That is an important question about an issue which I know occupies the thoughts of many. I reassure the House that the Ministry of Defence continually manages and analyses our stock of weapons and munitions against commitments and threats, while reviewing industrial capacity and supply chains both domestically and internationally. These considerations have informed both the numbers of munitions granted in kind to the armed forces of Ukraine and their avenues of supply. We remain fully engaged with industry allies and partners, and, as I said earlier, the MoD is utterly resolved to continue with this important support in kind.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, very sadly, it is highly likely that the barbaric—as my noble friend rightly said—treatment that has been meted out in Ukraine this week could lead to more refugees and more refuges for refugees. I am told—I hope this is wrong—that there is currently no Minister specifically answerable for refugee issues in either House, following the sad departure of my noble friend Lord Harrington. Can my noble friend clarify this?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

It is certainly somewhat outwith my ministerial responsibility. I understand that there is an overall responsibility falling on the Home Office, and I am sure that the Government will clarify specifically how they wish to address these issues. I am aware that very positive work has been going on already in relation to the Homes for Ukraine initiative in this country, which has been very successful, and we are very conscious of continuing to support it beyond the six-month period.

[Lord McDonald of Salford (CB)]

My Lords, as we contemplate the possible escalation of the conflict in Ukraine, the West is strikingly united. However, the key external player is China. Can the Minister inform your Lordships’ House about contacts with Beijing to ensure that the Chinese are also conveying the necessary messages to Moscow?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, the whole thrust of what the UK has been engaged in has been partly unilateral with Ukraine and partly multilateral and bilateral in conjunction with our partners and allies—that is very much a western response. I quite agree with him: China could have a very important role of influence to play. We maintain diplomatic relations with China, and I am certain that, through the usual conduits, representations will be made.

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House what efforts the Government are making to support those—Ukrainian prosecutors in particular, as well as international efforts—who are now part of the big effort to try to prosecute, document and investigate the war crimes committed by Russian forces?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

From a fairly early stage, we volunteered our support for, and co-operation with, the International Criminal Court, which is the pivot for driving forward both the investigation of the commission of crimes and the gathering of the evidence that will be necessary if these crimes are to be successfully prosecuted. We have provided advice and expertise, and we continue to do that. We are in constant communication with the International Criminal Court, and we want to play our full part in supporting the multinational initiative to bring war criminals to justice.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the destruction of towns, cities and villages across Ukraine, as we all know, is continuing and the damage to the Ukrainian economy is getting worse. Therefore, the cost of sustaining Ukraine and rebuilding afterwards will be very considerable. I have just returned from a conference in a European Union state where there was much discussion of how we manage the very large long-term effort to support and rebuild Ukraine on a multilateral basis, through the European Union, the European Investment Bank, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and a number of other multilateral institutions. Can the Government assure us that not only will they play their full part in that multilateral effort but that the visceral hatred of many Ministers for anything to do with the European Union will not get in the way of making sure we do so?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I was finding myself largely in sympathy with the noble Lord’s remarks until that point. To be clear, I have never displayed any visceral hatred of or towards the EU, and many of my colleagues are in exactly the same position. The EU has been a very important presence in the multinational response to Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. I think we all recognise the fundamental values of respect for law, democracy and sovereignty of a country. That conjunction of resolve and will, including the EU’s approach and support in all this, has been extremely important. Rebuilding Ukraine will be a huge challenge, but I think every state and the EU will want to play their part.

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry]

My Lords, I look forward to the forthcoming public vote at the United Nations General Assembly condemning Russian annexation of the four Ukrainian territories and, I understand, calling for a negotiated settlement. That will pass easily but, despite these recent indiscriminate attacks, as the Secretary-General described them, it looks likely that there will be a large number of abstentions from the majority of the developing world. Can the Minister say why so many countries remain non-aligned and what steps are being taken to address their concerns? In that context, would she accept that, with so many developing countries feeling the impact of the war, the Government should not look to balance their own books by cutting the aid budget further?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Although I am sympathetic to the tone of the right reverend Prelate’s questions, they are all outwith my ministerial responsibility. However, I hear what he is saying and am sure that those with influence in these matters will be listening carefully to him.

[Lord Brownlow of Shurlock Row (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome everything that my noble friend has said. With this awful illegal war dragging on and potential escalation, have the Government made an assessment of Ukraine fatigue setting in in the public mood and mainstream media in this country?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

All the evidence suggests that the country beginning to experience depleted morale and to pose questions about the morality and wisdom of this illegal war is Russia and the advisers surrounding Putin. The morale of the Ukrainian people under the extraordinary leadership of President Zelensky is very clear to me; I think we are universal in our admiration for it. He really is a figurehead who inspires, motivates, encourages and reassures. Our job, along with our other allies and partners, is to stand absolutely shoulder to shoulder in supporting him and his people and ensure that their morale, which shows no sign of flagging, remains high.

Defence: Type 45 Destroyers

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether the Type 45 Power Improvement Project (1) is now going to plan, and (2) is producing results that surpass expectations.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, HMS “Dauntless” has successfully completed rigorous sea trials at the end of our power improvement project conversion. The performance of HMS “Dauntless” demonstrated that the PIP design works well. The ship has now returned to Portsmouth for a scheduled maintenance period. HMS “Daring” is receiving PIP conversion at Cammell Laird, and HMS “Dragon” is receiving her conversion at HM naval base Portsmouth as part of an upkeep programme. Both projects are progressing well.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to ask the first Question about His Majesty’s ships in this new reign; I may possibly ask some more questions about them in future. I am delighted to hear that the work on “Dauntless” has gone so well. These are the best anti-air warfare ships in the world and it is horrifying that the power issue has been a problem for them. I only wish that they were all at sea now.

However, as we speak, a Type 23 frigate—one of 12 that we have—is looking after our exclusive economic zone assets, such as oil platforms, gas pipelines, fibreoptic cables, power cables, interconnectors and fisheries: what used to be known as the “offshore tapestry”. We have some 300,000 square miles to look after and to guard this, the Navy at the moment deploys three patrol boats. In the 1980s, we had 17 ships doing it. Does the Minister think that three patrol ships are sufficient? What work is being undertaken to review the level of protection of these incredibly important national assets on the seabed in view of the current war in Europe and the possibility of a world war?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Well, I do not completely recognise the figures that the noble Lord uses and he will know the constraint I am under in referring to specific operational activity. However, what I would say is that, as he will be aware, we always keep an eye on operational requirement, which is why we plan scheduled maintenance to make sure that we are always able to maintain the essential task that we require of the Navy.

I know that the noble Lord sometimes wears a mournful demeanour when asking me Questions at the Dispatch Box, but I think he will agree that the shipbuilding programme for the Royal Navy is very exciting. For the first time in 30 years, we are building two types of frigate simultaneously at UK yards.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the Type 45 is a crucial air defence platform for the protection of surface task forces, but ships are no use whatever without weapons. So how long would the Type 45s’ current stock of surface-to-air missiles be expected to last in a high-intensity conflict?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I would be reluctant to speculate on a specific answer to the noble and gallant Lord at the Dispatch Box; I need to go away and make some inquiries and I will endeavour to respond to him as best as I can.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, back in the 1980s, when I was a very junior Minister at the Ministry of Defence, we had about 50 destroyers and frigates available for service with the Royal Navy. How many do we have today?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Again, I would be hazarding a guess as to the total number. It is a healthy number, but I will get a specific answer to my noble friend’s question and write to him.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in responding to the initial Question, the Minister pointed out that various ships are in dock having PIP done. That is great—but what went wrong with the original procurement? What went wrong with the Queen Elizabeth class such that HMS “Prince of Wales” needed to come back to dock? Can the Minister reassure the House that, with the current shipbuilding process, ships will be fit for purpose first time round and not have to come back for maintenance quite so promptly?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, the propulsion issue that arose with the Type 45s was a complex technical issue. Indeed, it has been a complex engineering project to rectify it, but, thanks to the evidence through “Dauntless”, we are now satisfied that very healthy progress has been made.

As I have said previously in the Chamber, the case of HMS “Prince of Wales” is unfortunate. I understand that she has now made it to Rosyth, which is good news, and will be going into dry dock. We will then be able to explore in more detail the exact nature of the fault. It is not thought to be a class fault. HMS “Queen Elizabeth” has been inspected and is continuing to discharge her duties in the US in support of the Atlantic Future Forum.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, in December, in a report entitled We’re Going to Need a Bigger Navy, the Defence Select Committee expressed concern that the Type 45 PIP programme was “slipping”. In February, in their response to conclusion 20 of that report, the Government admitted that barriers to speeding it up included

“constraints of industrial capacity”.

In a letter dated 21 June, they said that they were

“assessing options to accelerate the programme”.

Do those options include addressing the constraints of industrial capacity? If so, what are the constraints and what are the options for addressing them?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The response given at the time was a reflection of both industry and the department doing their best to advance the correction of the propulsion defects. As I have indicated to the Chamber, progress has certainly been made with “Dauntless” and is being made with “Daring” and “Dragon”. We are looking at the options as best we can to accelerate the programme and complete this as early as possible before 2028. However, as I said earlier, that must be balanced against the Royal Navy’s current and future operational commitments.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the question asked by my noble friend Lord Browne, that means that until 2028 we will not have a full complement of our Type 45 destroyers. Just a month or so ago, all six were in dry dock. Building on the question asked by my noble friend Lord West, does this not highlight once again that the Royal Navy is now too small? Waiting until 2028 for all six Type 45 destroyers to be fully available to the British Navy concerns us, particularly at a time of international crisis.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Of course, implicit in my answer is that before 2028 we hope to have the ships returning to full working order. As the noble Lord is aware, “Defender” is currently conducting operations and defence engagement in the Mediterranean. We very much hope that the drumbeat of progress on restoring the propulsion system will continue. As the noble and gallant Lord said, these are very important ships. They are hugely capable and much admired across the world, and this improvement of the propulsion system is making them more resilient, adding to their admirable capability.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, given that India and the UK are currently negotiating a trade agreement, given that the Indians are considering moving procurement away from Russia to the United Kingdom, and given that India has recently launched an aircraft carrier of its own from Kochi, is it under any thought at the Ministry of Defence to outsource the production of ships to the Indians for various reasons, not least speed of production and cost?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Viscount will be aware from the refreshed national shipbuilding strategy, which is one of the most exciting developments we have seen for shipbuilding in the UK, there is a desire to nourish, nurture, sustain and fortify our indigenous shipbuilding industry. We are very anxious to do that, but we have never closed our minds to procuring elsewhere if that is what is required in the best interests of the country. At the end of the day, the shipbuilding strategy covers commercial activity, not just MoD activity.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the work being done on the destroyers will make them more resilient. That is really good, but a few months ago none of them was operational, as other noble Lords have said. We have now got one of our two aircraft carriers with a bent prop somewhere in Rosyth. Have we got anything that works first time these days?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord is being slightly mischievous and, as he is well aware, yes, we have a lot of ships that work extremely well. They have been much in evidence, not least when they were supporting the carrier strike group and were part of that global support activity. They have also been active in various arenas, as the noble Lord is well aware. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord West, I cannot comment in detail on operational activity, but we are satisfied that our operational requirements are being met.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, ships of course need crews to work them. Can the Minister give any indication as to whether the Royal Navy manpower and womanpower is adequate to the task that it is being asked to fulfil?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord poses an important question. As far as I am aware, there is not concern over levels of recruitment. However, I do not have detailed information in front of me. I shall inquire and if I can respond in more detail, I will do so.

Royal Navy: F35B

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord’s figure of 36 F35B as the optimum deployment for a carrier is not a measurement recognised within the MoD. Each Queen Elizabeth-class carrier has been designed for the flexible usage necessary in a modern defence capability, including transporting a mix of fixed-wing and rotary aircraft, but the composition and size of an embarked air group in a deploying carrier will be tailored to meet the operational requirement.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. I was very heavily involved in getting the aircraft carriers, and one of the bases for their size and scale was that they needed to carry 36 fast jets and be able to do operations over a three-day period. That is why they ended up at that size. You need to do that if you are going to be a hot-war situation, when they will do serious damage to the Queen’s enemies and can look after themselves. There is a war going on in Europe, and there could be a world war. We do not have enough aircraft to fill the carriers should we need to. In the defence review that is to be carried out, which was referred to by the Secretary of State for Defence two days ago, can the Minister ensure that it will look very closely at making sure we have enough aircraft and, even more fundamentally, enough pilots? The UK Military Flying Training System is a disaster at the moment and we have too few fast-jet pilots.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord for his role at the time of conceiving the two carriers, but that concept is now fairly mature and life has moved on. As I have indicated, the MoD has taken a view that we need flexibility. We need the capacity to be sure that, depending on operational requirement, we have these F35s, both land based and, if necessary, ship based, which is a sensible proposition to advance. I remind the noble Lord that the UK’s carrier strike group is a unique-value capability. The UK is the only ally to contribute a formed maritime task group complete with carrier-strike capability to NATO via the NATO readiness initiative.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, given that this hot war has been going on for six months in Ukraine, can my noble friend reassure the House that we have sufficient land forces, as well as naval and air forces, to sustain an operation such as this for six months? Most people say that we do not.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I hesitate to contradict my noble friend; I know he poses his question in very good faith. I would say to him that the role that the British military has been playing in relation to Ukraine is essentially one of support and advice, and of course, most recently and importantly, of training within this country—a very welcome facility for the armed forces of Ukraine. We also maintain our necessary capability to protect the security and defence of this country.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, for once the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, focused on helicopters and the air; I will focus on the sea. In the light of the fact that HMS “Prince of Wales” had to come back to dock because of technical issues and that earlier in the year all the Type 45s were in dock because of various issues, does the Minister feel that our naval capability is adequate, and what focus will Her Majesty’s Government, with the new Prime Minister, be putting on making sure that we are sufficiently resilient in the naval sphere?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

On the HMS “Prince of Wales”, that has of course been a regrettable development. I can confirm that the “Prince of Wales” is alongside in Portsmouth and will proceed to Rosyth dry dock in due course. In the meantime, HMS “Queen Elizabeth” has departed to carry out duties with the United States. On the broader question of the fleet, the noble Baroness will be aware that the fleet has been a very important supporter of the carrier project. Many of our ships were in attendance discharging duties. Most recently, there have been ships in the Mediterranean escorting Russian ships. I therefore reassure your Lordships that the fleet is in a good state. What is exciting is the planned development of the fleet, not just with Type 26 and Type 31 but now with Type 32 and Type 83 coming into scope.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s previous answer focused on the size of one carrier air group on one carrier. Even when Lightning numbers have been increased, the UK will still have only one air group for two carriers—an average of half an air group per carrier. The United States has an average of over one-and-a-half air groups per carrier, because it recognises that only this will enable it to maintain operational tempo. The Government have shown great ambition for deployments of the carrier and carrier air groups; will they recognise that if they are to sustain this ambition into the future, they need to provide the necessary resources to back it up?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

There are various situations where the United States and the United Kingdom approach differently configurations of capability. The noble and gallant Lord will be aware of the planned increase of the F35B flight support in 2025, when it will go from 26 at the moment up to 48. The ultimate plan is to increase it to 74. That is exciting and should reassure noble Lords that there is very robust capability.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, what is the cause of HMS “Prince of Wales” being taken out of operation, who is responsible and when will it be fully operational?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am unable to give any specific answers. The “Prince of Wales” will need to make her way to Rosyth to go into dry dock. At this stage, it is not known what the cause is; we know that the problem is mechanical failure on the propeller, on the shaft and the coupling, but what is causing the problem will become clearer only once inspection can be carried out. I see the noble Lord is shaking his head; I have huge admiration for him, but I did not realise that naval architecture was part of his skillset.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, with other members of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, I visited the Lockheed Martin factory in Dallas where the F35 is built. In the course of that visit, I was subject to a large number of questions as to precisely how many further aircraft the United Kingdom proposed to buy. Once upon a time, the figure was 138—I doubt that is still current. Will the Minister take the opportunity, as of today’s date, to give a definitive answer on the number of this fifth-generation aircraft that the United Kingdom Government are prepared to buy?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As I indicated to the noble and gallant Lord, the current level of F35s is 26; by 2025, there will be a further 22, bringing the flight up to 48. The intention is to buy a further tranche of additional F35B aircraft, which has been announced and will bring the UK total fleet up to 74 aircraft.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, as the present economic crisis was triggered, and indeed largely caused, by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, additional military expenditure, especially in as far as it helps expedite the expulsion of Russian troops from the territory of Ukraine, is part of dealing with the economic crisis?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As my noble friend will be aware, the integrated review absolutely and sharply identified the principal threat as far as the UK is concerned as being Russia. That has now manifested itself in an ugly and defined shape. He will be aware that the spending review accorded to the Ministry of Defence a record-busting extra £24 billion over the course of this Parliament. That is indicative of the Government’s commitment to defence. Obviously, with the new Prime Minister and, I have to say, a very determined Secretary of State for Defence, I am sure that the future significance—as my noble friend has indicated—of our defence capability will be constantly highlighted.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister can see from the number of questions that people are really concerned to hear from the Government a firm commitment that we will have a sufficient number of aircraft for our aircraft carriers. That is why she has been pressed, and some of the reassurance she has given to the House today is good. On the use of the aircraft carriers, can she say a bit more about the trials that are going on, about UAVs being used off the carriers and where that has got to? What are the Government’s objectives and plans with respect to that? Will it impact on the numbers of F35Bs that are to be ordered? Also, more worryingly, what will it mean for the way the aircraft carriers are configured and will any changes be needed to accommodate that?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, the F35 is a state-of-the-art aircraft and we are very pleased to have them. We are very pleased to be adding to our fleet and we look forward to these additions. They are already armed with very sophisticated weaponry, but the Royal Air Force intends to continue upgrading them with the wider programme and to equip them with UK weapons, which will include the UK-developed SPEAR Cap 3 and Meteor. To augment their strike capability and to complement and, perhaps, potentially replace some of the roles delivered by its crewed helicopters, the Royal Navy is exploring options for a range of uncrewed air systems.