North Wales Economic Infrastructure

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) on securing this debate. I echo the sympathies expressed by him and others towards those involved in the tragic accident in Europe yesterday.

This has been an excellent debate, which has demonstrated cross-party ambition, hope and optimism for north Wales and its people, public services and economic prosperity. By and large, as the shadow Minister mentioned, it has not been party political; I am pleased about that, because the issue is how to secure the right outcomes for north Wales.

The story of north Wales over the past five years has been quite remarkable. We all know that the UK has the fastest growing economy in the G7, and Wales is the fastest growing part of the United Kingdom. Since 2010—I hope that everyone will recognise this—gross value added growth for the UK has been 6.8%. In Wales, the figure is 8.4%, but it has been remarkably strong in north Wales, at 13.3%. That is a fantastic demonstration of the efforts of everyone in north Wales—the individuals, the private sector, the public sector and the entrepreneurs who are delivering growth have all achieved that quite remarkable figure of 13.3%.

[Chris Ruane]

Is the Minister including the Welsh Government in his list of people to congratulate?

[Alun Cairns]

Of course—I said the public sector. Everyone has played a part in delivering that 13.3% growth in north Wales. Of course, it needed a stable financial settlement and stable economic platform from which to build it. North Wales has prospered remarkably from those conditions.

The debate has focused on a range of issues, but without question there is absolute agreement among all Members on the interdependence of north Wales and the north of England in general and the north-west in particular. That is key to the area’s future prosperity. The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside picked up on that idea at the outset and focused on the Mersey Dee Alliance. I pay tribute to that organisation; I have met its representatives in my role as Minister and have been hugely impressed with its case. I also pay tribute to the local authorities in north Wales, whichever party runs them; their relationship with the Wales Office is probably stronger than that of the local authorities in south Wales because of their co-ordinated activity and determination to forge a relationship with Whitehall.

Coleg Cambria has been mentioned, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) mentioned Glyndwr university. Those are both excellent examples of using the strength of the private sector in north-east Wales to deliver skills.

[Albert Owen]

And Coleg Menai!

[Alun Cairns]

Yes, Coleg Menai as well, although the particular focus was on Coleg Cambria and on Glyndwr university. The university has been through some difficult times over the past year or so. I pay tribute to Mike Scott for his role during that period. He has moved on now, but I recognise his efforts.

Several hon. Members mentioned rail, an issue to which I will return, along with broadband, housing, on which the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) reflected, and energy. The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) mentioned the importance of tourism, referring to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrn- drobwllllantysiliogogogoch, a place famous not only for having the longest place name in Britain but for the founding of the Women’s Institute, an important reason to celebrate it. I will also return to mobile communication.

The common theme, on which I will focus, has been our relationship with Europe. Members have presented doubts and questions about the future of many companies and organisations, and so the continuing prosperity of north Wales, because of the commitment to a referendum on the UK’s future membership of the European Union.

I simply do not accept the Opposition’s arguments on that issue. The evidence is strong and pretty overwhelming. In February, the British Chambers of Commerce said:

“A new settlement for Britain in Europe is essential to achieving our economic ambitions—helping our businesses succeed here at home, and across the world.”

Inward investment to the UK is quite remarkable. According to the World Investment Report published by the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, the UK is the No. 1 country for foreign direct investment stock in Europe and is second only to the United States in the world.

[Albert Owen]

I am sure it is not intentional, but the Minister has misunderstood our case. The case is for staying in the European Union. Businesses are telling me that they invested here—Hitachi is one example; its headquarters are here in the UK—because we are part of the European Union. There is a net benefit for us from being in the EU. We want that to continue and are proud to beat the drum for it.

[Alun Cairns]

That is a respectable point, but the argument was being made that businesses were not investing because of the EU question. The hon. Gentleman will be able to make his point in the campaign when we have the referendum in 2017, and then people will have the choice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge)]

Let the people decide!

[Alun Cairns]

Absolutely, let the people decide. Industries and businesses invest for the long term and would not be investing now if, as the Opposition say, the position of the UK Government was undermining their future plans. That clearly is not the case. Britain is getting 50% more inward investment than either France or Germany, the next two biggest recipients of foreign direct investment. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) specifically mentioned Airbus, but Tom Enders has said:

“Regardless of which decision the UK will make, we are strongly committed to our operations in the UK, which are key to the long-term future of our group.”

The evidence is quite clear, from statements from the chief executive of Airbus to the record amount of inward investment coming to north Wales. Putting doubt about the UK’s role in Europe in the minds of potential investors does not support the economic growth of the area.

[Mark Tami]

Does the Minister not accept that many companies, big and small, will not speak publicly about or get involved in politics—probably rightly—but will have concerns that they raise in private? My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn has mentioned some of those concerns this morning. It is incredibly naive to dismiss this issue as if it is not a fear or a threat when it is. It is a serious problem that we have to address.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but even if I accepted it, quite obviously businesses would not be spending and investing sums of money if they had the doubts that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn has shared.

I am sorry that the time has gone in which I could have focused on rail investment. Important points have been made about the Halton curve, the Wrexham to Bidston line and the Deeside and Wirral Waters relationship, which was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West. Those are really important issues. We must focus on the economic value released by railway investments rather than purely on passenger numbers or environmental benefits. Economic benefits are important, and I was delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) focused on releasing economic potential in the report to the Department for Transport by the North of England Electrification Task Force.

Welsh Affairs

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Llwyd]

I would argue yes, because we need to get away from this pattern of asymmetrical devolution, which is complicated, time-consuming and ends up in references to the Supreme Court and so on. I know the reserved powers model will assist there. Yes, I do believe that. The major problem—I say this quite sincerely—is that we are not hitting on a fair funding formula for the future. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we discussed that issue in Committee and that the Barnett floor is of assistance. He also knows, as I have said before, that it is not the be-all and end-all or the ultimate answer to fair funding for Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

When talking about a funding settlement, does the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that Wales’s current settlement falls within the Holtham recommendation at £116 for every £100 spent in England? His recommendation was a figure between £114 and £117.

[Mr Llwyd]

My point is that the way the Barnett formula operates in Wales is still unfair in comparison with the amount paid out in Scotland—I am sure my friends in the Scottish National party would hit me over the head if they were here, but I will take advantage of the fact that they are not. It is a difference of £1.2 billion per annum, which is a lot of money. I remind Members that the current process on further powers for Wales began about four years ago. The issue of funding was then outside its remit, which I believe was a mistake, whether deliberate or not. Fair funding for Wales has gone for the time being, and it continues to be a major issue that the commission could have settled or commissioned work on for the future.

We entered these discussions in good faith and attempted to be constructive, as the Secretary of State said. I am not jumping up and down and screaming about the result—there are good things in the Command Paper, which I will refer to in a moment. However, we have missed an opportunity to have all the tools further to develop the economy of Wales, and to give the Welsh people further accountability for and control over the way they run their lives, and over the way money is spent for the economic good of Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s relationship with BT is better than mine. I do not know, but there are certainly parts of Wales that broadband is not reaching and Monmouthshire is among them.

[Alun Cairns]

I remind my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) that the scheme the hon. Gentleman talks about includes significant taxpayers’ money from the UK Government, as well—that is, £70 million. A higher level of funding comes from the UK Government through the UK taxpayer than from the Welsh Government in that process.

[David T. C. Davies]

There we have it. There is money aplenty going in to it from the Welsh Assembly, the British taxpayers and the European Union, but it is still not getting to Monmouthshire. Perhaps we should return to that point. I appreciate the co-operation between members of the Committee. People outside the Committee could perhaps take a lesson on it. I do not want to be too critical of anyone on this Thursday afternoon, but it was interesting that we found in one of our inquiries that there was not quite the co-operation between International Business Wales and UK Trade & Investment that one would like. When the First Minister, or indeed my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, goes off to sell Wales, they should go as part of a joint trade mission so that we can show investors from the far east or elsewhere that the Welsh Assembly and the national Government are speaking with one voice on the importance of inward investment. Whether politicans are Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Plaid Cymru or from some other party, in the Assembly or Parliament, we all agree on the importance of getting investment into Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

The Secretary of State shakes his head, but, as he ought to know, the speech was released to the media accidentally with the “da iawn” included in it and some suggestions as to how the Prime Minister ought to pronounce that, but if he thinks there is any prospect of Tories in the valleys ousting our Members I have another bit of Welsh for him: “Yn dy freuddwydion,” which means “In your dreams.”

[Alun Cairns]

rose—

[Owen Smith]

I will happily give way. Is the hon. Gentleman about to correct my Welsh?

[Alun Cairns]

May I suggest that, having made such an attempt at Welsh, perhaps the hon. Gentleman needs some lessons in pronunciation?

[Owen Smith]

I would accept that, as a native English speaker and a failed Welsh learner. I am still trying, although I have not reached the same standards as some, but I think that was a fair attempt at “In your dreams.”

Other examples from the Prime Minister have been pure comedy gold—not weak gags like that. We have had some excellent examples from the Prime Minister. He channelled his Welshness in trying to come up with a nickname for the Secretary of State. There is a great tradition of nicknames in Wales—Dai the Milk, Evans the Coal, and we even had Jones the Jag at one point in this place—but so impressed was the Prime Minister at the way in which the Secretary of State has warmed to devolution, indeed undertaken a damascene conversion, I am told that he referred to him as being known now in Tory circles as “Stevolution”. It has a certain ring to it, doesn’t it? I am not sure that it is the ring of truth, however. I am not entirely persuaded that he is now so devo-friendly that he could be known as “Stevolution” in Tory circles.

What certainly does not have the ring of truth are some of the other claims that the Prime Minister has been making on behalf of the Tories. He claimed this week that it was the Tories who brought Pinewood studios to Wales, despite the fact that the UK Government had nothing to do with it—

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[Owen Smith]

I would fully accept that, were it consonant with the facts. The Prime Minister actually said in his conference speech, after listing all those achievements:

“We need to tell everyone who did all this…it’s us.”

This clearly is not true.

A bigger truth is that the Tories have done precious little to help the economy of Wales, but they have done plenty to hinder it. The people of Wales know that. When they hear the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister claiming credit for creating jobs in Wales, they know that 90,000 contracts or jobs in Wales, not 35,000 individuals, but that might also be right—[Interruption.] No, I said “jobs” yesterday. The Secretary of State should read the Hansard. They know that too many of those jobs are Tory-style mini-jobs involving zero-hours contracts, zero security, low wages and low productivity. They also know that a quarter of Welsh workers earn less than the living wage. Wales has the lowest disposable incomes in the UK.

The people of Wales know that these facts give the lie to the notion that there is a Tory-led recovery, as does the fact that we are £68 billion short on tax receipts and spending £25 billion extra on social security. The price of this failure in Wales under the Tories is a tenfold increase in the volume of people using food banks and £1,700 less in the pockets of Welsh families.

In stark contrast, the Welsh Labour Government have shown that they can get Wales working again. Jobs Growth Wales, designed and built in Cardiff, has got 17,000 young people back to work, showing that local solutions with bespoke ideas can deliver jobs in Wales. So it is inexplicable that the Tory party—the “party of real devolution”, as I am told it now calls itself—is still refusing to devolve the Work programme to Wales, as Labour will when we win in May. Inexplicable, too—to many in Wales—is why fair funding for Wales is being promised only if Wales agrees to raise taxes.

Last week, the Welsh Secretary made some important announcements about his Government’s intentions to take forward the recommendations of the cross-party Silk Commission if—heaven forefend—they are back in government next time. The Opposition agree with many of those extra measures. Putting the Welsh settlement on to the same statutory footing and making the Welsh legislature a permanent part of the UK constitution are proposals that we can agree on. We also agree with proposals to give powers to Wales over elections and energy, and additional powers over ports and marine matters. Indeed, we said all those things first. But we will go further. We will give Wales powers over policing, which is why I was disappointed at the mischaracterisation of Labour’s position by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd. I am sure the Secretary of State will recall our position during those talks, which was, “Reserved and then announced at the party conference for Labour in Wales.”

Lastly, fair funding for Wales was one of the most important aspects of the talks. It is disingenuous of the Secretary of State now to talk about delivering fair funding, given that his Government have cut £1.5 billion from the funding for Wales and he knows that their plans to cut funding to the rest of the UK back to the levels of the 1930s will have a deeply damaging effect on Wales. Cutting spending back to the level it was when the NHS was just a glint in Nye Bevan’s eye would be devastating for Wales. So we agree with the Secretary of State that there should be a funding floor in Wales, but we want to see the detail and to know precisely where they will set that floor. Only then will the people of Wales trust this Tory Government—

[Alun Cairns]

What detail is the hon. Gentleman prepared to put forward on Labour’s funding floor proposal? The shadow Chancellor said in Cardiff today that Labour would be presenting no detail this side of the election.

[Owen Smith]

We will stand on our record of having trebled the funding for Wales during our period in office. While the Under-Secretary has been in office, the spending for Wales has been cut by £1.5 billion. So we will stand proudly on our record and we can rest assured that the people of Wales will understand that we will deliver for Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with business representatives in Wales on the importance of membership of the EU to the Welsh economy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Membership of the European Union’s single market is good for businesses in Wales. However, businesses tell me that the burdens and costs imposed by the European Union are making it harder for them to grow. This Government are determined to renegotiate our membership with the European Union to get a better deal for Wales and for UK businesses, and to put that to the people.

[Mark Tami]

How many tens of thousands of jobs in Wales does the Minister think would be at risk if the UK left the EU?

[Alun Cairns]

A renegotiated European Union provides greater opportunities for businesses in Wales. I know that the hon. Gentleman shows great interest in Airbus, which says:

“Regardless of which decision the UK will make, we are strongly committed to our operations in the UK”.

The British Chambers of Commerce also supports that position. I am absolutely confident that the growth in Wales will contribute to more jobs and provide more of the certainty that people want.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue of British membership of the EU is indeed of concern to the people of Wales, who have not had their say on the issue for 40 years? Does he further agree that the only way they will get that say is with the return of a Conservative Government, because Labour will not give it to them?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. We cannot pretend that this debate is not happening. We need to make the arguments for what the CBI wants—a reformed European Union of which the UK is a part.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I am intrigued. The Minister said earlier that businesses had told him various anti-EU things. Can he name a single business across the length and breadth of Wales—north, south, east or west—that has told him it would like Wales to leave the EU?

[Alun Cairns]

I am happy to point to the survey by the British Chambers of Commerce which showed that 77% of businesses support a referendum on EU membership, and said:

“British businesses remain determined to see a recalibrated relationship between the UK and the rest of the European Union, with more powers exercised from Westminster rather than Brussels.”

I hope that the hon. Lady supports that comment from the British Chambers of Commerce.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that businesses do not always speak with one voice on this issue? While big businesses are often the most able to cope with the bureaucracy sent to us from Brussels and might want to stay within the European Union, very often small businesses do not?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. Many of the people who are scaremongering now are the same people who wanted to join the euro all those years ago. It is this party that stands up for the British economy and stands up for businesses, exactly as the British Chambers of Commerce, the CBI and Airbus say in the quotes I have given.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

13. [907780] In 1998, I was successful in persuading my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) to accept Denbighshire and Conwy into the bid for objective 1 European funding. In that time, Denbighshire has had a quarter of a billion pounds of private sector and public sector funding from Europe. If Britain pulls out of the EU, my constituency and my county will lose £100 million over the next seven years. What does the Minister feel about that?

[Alun Cairns]

May I remind the hon. Gentleman that European structural funds are aimed at the poorest parts of Europe? It is no mark of celebration to say that his constituency succeeded in winning that money. This Government have a long-term economic plan to turn the economy around for the longer term rather than depending on the grants and handouts for which he makes the case. He also needs to be reminded that that is our money coming back with conditions attached.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the reforms that the CBI and others are recommending for the single market, and for the European Union in general, are absolutely right for Wales and absolutely right for Britain, and that that should be a consideration for the referendum?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Opposition Members talk about some sort of so-called uncertainty, but that so-called uncertainty has given us the fastest-growing economy in the G7 and has made Wales the fastest-growing part of the United Kingdom, which we should be celebrating and marking.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

3. When he last met representatives of the tourism sector in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Wales Office Ministers regularly meet representatives of the tourism industry in Wales. Wales is a fantastic holiday destination, and this Government will continue to do all they can to promote Wales at home and abroad.

[Mr Llwyd]

We are indeed fortunate in that people the world over want to visit the wonderful country of Wales—I and, I am sure, the Minister are very proud of the country—but more should be done in terms of tourism and the Welsh economy. What discussions has he or his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had with colleagues to implement a 5% VAT rate for the tourism sector, which would bring 5,500 extra jobs to Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

With permission, Mr Speaker, a gaf i dalu teyrnged i’r Aelod gwir anrhydeddus? I would like to pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for his service in this House over many years, and for the way in which he has led his party here.

VAT levels for business are of course set by the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman rightly points to the importance to the Welsh economy of tourism, which makes up almost 15% of the work force. That is why I am delighted that the number of international visits last year increased by 7.5%, or 26,000 visits.

[Mr Llwyd]

Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ei eiriau caeredig. I will help Hansard with the spelling later.

In terms of competitive disadvantage, 24 EU states already have a reduced rate of VAT on tourism. In addition, the economic study by Professor Adam Blake, using the Treasury’s own modelling technique, showed that a cut in tourism VAT would increase GDP by £4 billion per annum.

[Alun Cairns]

A strong tourism sector needs a strong economy. Wales is the fastest-growing part of the United Kingdom, which creates a greater opportunity to attract tourists from not only the UK but beyond. VisitBritain is launching the Countryside is Great campaign, from which I know the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency is set to benefit.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The Minister is right to highlight the successes of the Welsh tourism industry. Will he reflect on the benefits of a cut in VAT for rural economies, particularly those in west Wales—the constituency of the Secretary of State and Ceredigion, Powys and Dwyfor Meirionnydd? They would really benefit because they are incredibly fragile economies.

[Alun Cairns]

VAT rates are a matter for the Treasury, but the hon. Gentleman will be able to make such points in the forthcoming Treasury debate. We need to ensure that Wales gets its fair share of VisitBritain, and the Countryside is Great campaign provides a great opportunity for his constituency and large parts of Wales to ensure that Wales is promoted internationally as well as within the United Kingdom.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

4. What assessment he has made of the potential benefits to south Wales of the Severn barrage.

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[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

6. What discussions he has had with the Welsh Minister for Health on cross-border health care provision.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Wales Office Ministers hold regular discussions with Ministers in the Welsh Government on a range of issues, including the provision of health care services along the England and Wales border. We will continue to review current arrangements to ensure that they meet patients’ needs on both sides of the border.

[Glyn Davies]

A major problem facing rural Wales is difficulty in attracting GPs to come to work in Wales, and one reason for that is the bureaucracy involved in GPs having to go through a process of specific Welsh registration. Will the Minister work with the Welsh Government and the Department of Health to bring forward a common registration programme for Wales and England?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We want the greatest flexibility in the NHS work force across the whole United Kingdom. The regulatory burden and bureaucracy involved is unacceptable, and the Department of Health and Welsh Government are working together with the support of the Wales Office to put that right.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Many health services for my constituents are delivered from England by specialist hospitals. Why do the Secretary of State and the Minister want to take away the voice of MPs from Wales to speak up on behalf of their constituents and look after their interests?

[Alun Cairns]

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s premise. Welsh MPs will still be here fighting for their constituents and ensuring the best care for them, be it on the Welsh or English side of the border. That is what we will be elected for.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Rural GP practices are at particular risk, as shown by the proposed closure of the Llanwrtyd GP surgery, and patients will have nowhere to go. Will the Minister make representations not only to the Royal College of General Practitioners but to the Wales Deanery, to encourage more GPs?

[Alun Cairns]

That is a matter for the Welsh Government, but I will happily raise that point. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) underlines the fact that flexibility would create greater opportunity to try to fill those gaps.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the Minister concede that one of the main problems with the health service in Wales is underfunding, on which the new announcement on further devolution has signally failed to deliver?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about funding, and there have been many debates in the Chamber about the funding of the NHS in England and in Wales. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) once said, Aneurin Bevan would turn in his grave if he thought that a Welsh Labour Government were cutting the NHS budget while a Conservative Government in Westminster were growing the NHS budget.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

7. What discussions he has had with the National Police Air Service on the provision of helicopter services within Dyfed Powys police force area.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

As a police-led initiative, it is for the National Police Air Service Strategic Board to develop the operating and financial models to meet the needs of all forces throughout Wales and England.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Dyfed Powys helicopter base at Pembrey is a state-of-the-art facility that opened only in 2010, at a cost of £2 million to the residents of the force area. Last month the newly created National Police Air Service reneged on an agreement made only last November to preserve that base. Dedicated helicopter capacity is vital to policing in the Dyfed Powys area. On Monday, for example, the helicopter saved the life of an injured man at the LNG facility in Pembrokeshire, transporting him to Heath in Cardiff. Will the Minister raise that issue with the Home Secretary and NPAS, and will he meet me to discuss the concerns of the people of west Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and I pay tribute to the police and crime commissioner, Chris Salmon, for his work on that. He has an agreement in place that extends access to the helicopter service from 12 to 24 hours, with an 85% priority recall within 20 minutes. That is delivering more for less money. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is a lot of noise in the Chamber. Let us have some order for the Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of the House of Commons, Mr Graham Allen.

Employment in Wales

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) on securing this important debate. We have heard a range of contributions. It was certainly interesting to hear that of the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd, although of course my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) highlighted the impact of the dead hand of Labour on the Vale of Clwyd and every other constituency. He also reminded us that Labour signed up to the public spending commitments set out by the Government for the forthcoming years; whenever the Opposition criticise this Administration’s cuts, they must demonstrate which they would make instead of ours.

The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) highlighted the fragility of the private sector in Wales. I challenge some of the points that he made about that fragility, as the private sector is thriving in terms of creating employment, but the greater stability and security that we can offer such businesses will allow the sector to be more robust than ever. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) highlighted a host of contradictions made by some Opposition Members and discussed Labour’s tactic to grow wealth by swelling the welfare state, which is clearly economically illiterate and does not stack up. My hon. Friend was absolutely right.

The hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) focused on welfare reform, and seemed to complain about the benefit cap of £23,000 proposed this morning by the Prime Minister. I remind him that many people in Wales who work hard day in and day out do not earn that much salary. If he does not support a £23,000 benefit cap, the money saved by such a cap would need to be found in cuts elsewhere, which I hope Labour will outline.

The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) covered a range of issues. He seemed to suggest that public sector jobs were good and private sector jobs were bad, which I absolutely reject. He also highlighted the issue of zero-hours contracts. The Government are tackling the abuse of zero-hours contracts, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Labour party itself, and even Labour MPs, use zero-hours contracts. He rightly focused on the living wage and minimum wage. We encourage as many employers as possible to live up to the living wage, but I point out that a number of Labour-run local authorities in Wales do not pay the living wage, and I encourage Labour Members to consider that within their budget plans and affordability measures.

The hon. Gentleman closed on the minimum wage and said that the Labour Government would increase it; I think that the latest policy to which they are committing is £8 an hour. However, a Labour former Cabinet member has highlighted how unambitious that is; even under past projections, by 2020 it will not buy much. If historical increases in the minimum wage were projected forward, they would go well beyond that. In reality, Labour is talking about cutting the minimum wage for hard-working people.

[Guto Bebb]

Although I aspire for people to be paid more than the minimum wage, it is important when we discuss it not to forget that many of those on the minimum wage pay significantly less tax as a direct result of this Government’s policies to ensure that people keep more of the money that they earn.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making an extremely important and valid point. Some of the data and statistics highlighted by Opposition Members were somewhat selective, and we need to take the totality of Government changes into account; doing so highlights the progress that has been made.

It is also important to remember the context in which this debate is taking place. We need to remember that when Labour came to power in 1997, Wales was not the poorest part of the United Kingdom. Since then, sadly, there has been a complete shift in culture. That is simply illustrated: in a population of 3 million, there are 200,000 people in Wales who have never worked. The Government needed to act. We were simply not prepared to allow the previous trends to continue, whereby, sadly, the economy of Wales was being compared to those of Romania and Bulgaria; whereby parts of Wales were blighted with worklessness; and whereby a third of the working-age populations of some communities were claiming out-of-work benefits.

We have taken key steps to deal with that legacy of worklessness and a welfare system that encouraged dependency. As a Government, we have put in place a long-term economic plan to deal with the situation that we inherited—in 2010, Wales was, sadly, the poorest part of the UK. That fact will always come back to haunt Opposition Members. They talk about wealth, prosperity and growth, but they left Wales as the poorest part of the UK, despite receiving in 1997 an economy that meant Wales was not the poorest part of the UK.

We developed a plan to stabilise the country’s economy, to deal with years of financial mismanagement under the last Labour Government and to get the people of Wales and Britain back to work. That long-term economic plan is paying dividends. It surprises me that during the last hour or so I have listened to Opposition Members playing down the progress of the labour market in their constituencies.

For example, in the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd’s constituency, unemployment more than doubled between 2005 and 2010; there was a rise of 105% under the last Administration. Since 2010, unemployment in Vale of Clwyd has dropped by a third. Surely he welcomes that as a positive outcome.

[Chris Ruane]

What about since 1997?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman points back to 1997, but I can speak only about the time since 2010, when this Administration came to power. However, I remind him of what I said before: in 1997, Wales was not the poorest part of the UK but, sadly, by 2010 it was. That happened under both a Labour UK Government and a Labour Welsh Assembly Government. Thirteen years of Labour Administrations in Wales between 1997 and 2010 left Wales as the poorest part of the UK.

On a positive note, I hope that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the fall in unemployment in his constituency since this Administration came to power. The picture is similar for youth unemployment in the Vale of Clywd; it went up by 82% under Labour, but since 2010 it has come down by a third. Why does he not recognise the positive steps that the Government have taken in that regard, and why is he not congratulating the businesses in his constituency that are creating these jobs and employment opportunities for his constituents?

It was a privilege to visit Clogau Gold in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency just a short time ago. It is expanding, exporting, and creating wealth and employment locally in the Vale of Clywd. I regret how the hon. Gentleman is talking down his own area; that is hardly creating the mood to attract investment and to encourage companies such as Clogau Gold to continue to spend money on investing, exporting and creating yet more wealth.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Minister talks of the “long-term economic plan”, but have not the deficit reduction targets of his Government been missed by a country mile? One of the major reasons for that is that the jobs being created are low-wage in nature, which means they do not generate the revenues the Treasury was expecting.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point; we need to recognise the context in terms of deficit reduction. Given that we had been so over-dependent on the eurozone as our export market and that the eurozone went into near-meltdown, naturally that hit the Welsh economy disproportionately harder than we would have liked. That is why the long-term economic plan aims at growing exports, such as those of Clogau Gold in the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd’s constituency, well beyond Europe—to the middle east, to the far east and to the fast-developing economies of Brazil, Russia, India and China. Excellent progress has been made in that regard.

Would I have liked the deficit to have been cut further? Of course I would. However, the process is about achieving a balance between reducing the deficit and creating wealth and employment. The Government’s record is positive in that respect. We need to remember that last year the UK was the fastest growing economy in the G7, and that Wales is the second fastest growing part of the UK. We are absolutely up there at the top; we need to recognise and celebrate that, rather than hearing the arguments that we have heard from Opposition Members. It is in their interests to talk Wales down, creating more dependency and trying to create a sort of depth of Labour voters to look to Labour for help rather than looking to the private sector for wealth as well as opportunity creation and generation.

Overall, the picture throughout the whole of Wales is positive, just as it is in the Vale of Clwyd. I could highlight more statistics about north Wales and the south Wales valleys, but the reality is that long-term unemployment is falling and the Work programme is having a major effect. Jobs Growth Wales has a part to play, but we must remember that the independent assessment of Jobs Growth Wales highlighted that 73% of the people who found jobs through it would have found jobs elsewhere.

Let us pool our ideas and resources, to try to get people off welfare and into work through the positive culture of cutting tax, growing the economy and reducing unemployment, in exactly the way that the Government have done.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

3. What assessment he has made of trends in the level of infrastructure investment in Wales since 2010.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

We have been ambitious in our infrastructure investment plans to address the historic underinvestment in Wales by previous Governments. We are enabling businesses in Wales to expand and explore new markets by investing in better train links, less-congested roads and faster broadband speeds.

[Stuart Andrew]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Given the commitment to fund the northern hub in full and the ambition for HS3 to improve connectivity right across the north of England, what is his Department doing to ensure that north Wales can take full advantage of those welcome developments?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the significant infrastructure investment being made across the whole of the UK, but of course it is important that north Wales links into the rest of the UK. The fact that Crewe is the HS2 hub is important, and I look forward to hosting a transport summit in the next week or so to discuss how we best link north Wales with the rest of the UK.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

13. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on investment in rail in north Wales. Will the Minister confirm that the UK Government have diverted funding previously allocated for the phase 1 and phase 2 modular rail signalling upgrade in north Wales to support investment in rail projects in south Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

I can categorically reject that. The UK Government are making significant investment in north Wales, at the Halton curve, and in south Wales, in the electrification of the main line right through to Swansea and in the valley lines and Vale of Glamorgan line services. I am proud of our record of electrifying railways in Wales. The previous Administration left us as one of the three nations across Europe without any electrified rail; Wales, sadly, was left with Albania and Moldova, and this Government are changing that.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

Will the Minister congratulate the Welsh Government on providing funding for infrastructure investment in Rhyl? They have provided £28 million for new housing in Rhyl; £22 million for a new community hospital; £10 million for a new harbour; £25 million for a new Rhyl high school; and £12 million for flood defences. Will he also condemn the coalition Government, who have closed down Rhyl county court, Rhyl Army recruitment centre and Rhyl tax office, with the Crown post office possibly being relocated out of Rhyl?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is somewhat selective in the data he shares. I am proud of the infrastructure investment record of this Government; he failed to mention the north Wales prison and the Halton curve, as well as the investment across the whole of Wales, not only in the north.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

In recent months, I have been working with the communities of Salem, Cwmdu, Talley and Pumsaint, which have been without landline provision while waiting for damaged lines to be repaired. Communication problems have been exacerbated by a lack of mobile coverage, so will the Minister ensure that mobile not spots in Carmarthenshire benefit from the recently announced investment in mobile infrastructure?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that important issue. Openreach and British Telecom need to get on top of replacing those lines when they fall because of adverse weather. Let me also congratulate the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the innovation he is showing in trying to close those not spots by using both private money and the mobile infrastructure plan, which will make a major difference in these areas.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

4. What steps the Government are taking to support the dairy industry in rural Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

7. What assessment he has made of the implications for the Government’s policies of the Auditor General for Wales’s report on “Managing the Impact of Welfare Reform Changes on Social Housing Tenants in Wales”, published in January 2015.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

This Government will not shy away from the financial and social responsibility of reforming the way in which housing benefit is allocated. There are no plans to change Government policy following the report from the Auditor General for Wales. We plan to use this report to support local authorities to respond better to local needs.

[Ann Clwyd]

As the Minister will know, there has been a large number of Government reports on the Government’s welfare policies. A Sheffield Hallam university report, for example, shows that the south Wales valleys will experience a £430 million cut in income, endangering 3,000 local jobs as a direct result of Tory welfare reforms. Is not the Minister ashamed?

[Alun Cairns]

The report that the right hon. Lady mentions is an important contribution to the debate, but it focuses on only one element of Government policy. It does not take into account the wider package of welfare reform—something that the previous Administration, sadly, shied away from. This Administration will not do so, because of the important need to tackle Government finances.

[Mr Hanson]

The 1,500 people in Flintshire who are impacted by the bedroom tax face no choice but to cut their incomes, which are already low, because there are no properties available. Will the Minister tell me how many two-bedroom and one-bedroom properties are available in Flintshire today?

[Alun Cairns]

The right hon. Gentleman raises an important point because the number of new social properties built in Wales over the past three years is, proportionately, far fewer than the number built in England over the same period. The Welsh Government have a responsibility to deliver in that area. The Wales Audit Office report also highlights the fact that 47% of tenants had no advice given to them on how better to manage the spare room subsidy and the obligations that it would bring.

[Mark Tami]

Will the Minister explain why it is right to force disabled people out of a home and into a smaller property—should one exist in the first place—rip out all the adaptations that have been made to that property and, presumably, put new ones into a second property? Apart from being cruel, how can such action possibly be cost-effective?

[Alun Cairns]

This Government have made additional money available through the discretionary housing payment to help individuals facing difficult circumstances. Only three out of 22 local authorities in the whole of Wales—Cardiff, Caerphilly and Conwy—applied for additional discretionary housing payments. The hon. Gentleman’s local authority did not do that. Let us be clear: the roots of the removal of the spare room subsidy lie deeply in the Labour Benches, because it was a Labour Administration who took it away from the private-rented sector. We are merely extending that principle to the social-rented sector.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

My own local authority runs a useful forum for local agencies to plan a response to the bedroom tax, but its work is bedevilled by a lack of certainty over central Government support through the discretionary fund. Will the Minister prevail on his colleagues to give more certainty to future funding, which would help our work?

[Alun Cairns]

The discretionary housing payment is completely flexible and local authorities should use their discretion to see that it is used in the best way. The Wales Audit Office report provides excellent data and highlights some authorities such as Caerphilly and Cardiff that provide excellent practice and support their tenants in meeting the obligations of the spare room subsidy. After all, it is about returning the long-term unemployed back to the workplace, as that offers them the best opportunities and the best prospects.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

8. What assessment he has made of the level of growth in the high-tech sector in Wales since 2010.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

9. What recent discussions he has had on increased shared services jobs in Gwent.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The Wales Office continues to hold discussions with the Ministry of Justice on the future of the Shared Services Connected Limited offices in Newport. The Justice Secretary has been clear that he would not support any proposals to offshore jobs from Newport.

[Paul Flynn]

The city of Newport has provided a splendid successful habitat for thousands of civil service jobs. Will the Minister renew his efforts to ensure that shared services, which were pioneered in Newport, are now strengthened and recognised as centres of excellence?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue. It is quite obvious that the pooling of the expertise and experience in Newport provides the shared services facility a great opportunity to try to attract work from both the private and public sectors, and we are determined to do what we can in that area.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of the prevalence of anti-Semitism in Wales.

Wales Bill

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

No. I am saying that if there were a Labour Government, we would have a constitutional convention to look at the whole of the UK. Therefore, wherever we were in the Smith commission proposals, which will continue on their course, that would need to be fed into the convention. A constitutional convention would not need to slow down or stop further devolution to Scotland, but it would have to take cognisance of what was happening in Scotland.

Whatever further changes are made in Wales should reflect what happens in Scotland, because the willingness to accept asymmetry has diminished in Wales and elsewhere. Many of us feel that such asymmetry inherently leads, over time, to instability in the existing settlement.

In the absence of a convention, we must consider why the Government think that Wales should take up the new powers. I want to start not with Labour, but with the current Government. Why do they now feel that the Labour Welsh Government should have an unfettered ability to raise taxes or to lower them to levels below those in England? The Secretary of State has made a couple of soundbites or comments today to illustrate why he thinks we should do so—he talked repeatedly about accountability and responsibility—but I must say that none of them was quite as blunt and honest as the rationale he gave to the Institute of Welsh Affairs a few weeks ago. He said clearly that his objective in providing the tax varying powers was to

“end the politics of the begging bowl in Wales”—

[Interruption.] The Secretary of State says, “Absolutely,” but I find that quite an offensive position for him to take. He should not describe Wales as, in effect, a supplicant, and nor should he suggest that we are a scrounger or a shirker asking for handouts. It is not for him to suggest that the cure for the

“politics of the begging bowl”,

as he injudiciously puts it, is to force the Welsh people to raise taxes within their own borders. I do not espouse such a dog-eat-dog, race-to-the-bottom version of Britain, and nor should he.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The phrase “begging bowl”, as used in this context, originated with former First Minister Rhodri Morgan. Does the shadow Secretary of State completely dissociate himself from that?

[Owen Smith]

It was deployed in an entirely different context. The implication of the Secretary of State’s pejorative use of the phrase was—I am paraphrasing, but this was broadly what he said in the rest of his speech —that the Welsh Government have not been responsible or accountable, but that they would become so for the first time if tax powers were afforded to them. I have never accepted that the Welsh Government are unaccountable —they are as accountable as any elected Government—and I certainly do not subscribe to the view that Wales has ever held out a begging bowl.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Crabb]

I will not, because there is another group of Lords amendments to discuss.

I should like to finish by paying particular tribute to the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). He set out some powerful arguments, and has done so from a position of real credibility, having been an Assembly Member. He has been ahead of the curve on many occasions in recognising the strategic direction that Welsh devolution needs to go in and the benefits that can be accrued to Wales by taking sensible, moderate and pragmatic steps forward. On that note, I shall bring my remarks to a close.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to, with Commons financial privilege waived.

Lords amendments 2 to 13 and 17 agreed to, with Commons financial privilege waived.



Clause 13

Proposal for referendum by Assembly

[Alun Cairns]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 14.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 15 and 16.

[Alun Cairns]

These amendments provide that, when a resolution to hold a referendum on income tax powers is moved in the National Assembly for Wales, the Assembly must state as part of the resolution whether the voting age for that referendum is to be 16 or 18. During the Bill’s passage through the other place, a number of peers sought to extend the franchise in Wales to 16 and 17-year-olds. They highlighted the fact that young people in Scotland had been able to vote in the independence referendum, but young people in Wales would not be able to vote in a referendum on income tax powers. I pay tribute to the younger voters of Scotland who actively registered and voted in that referendum. I know that many people felt that the involvement of 16 and 17-year-olds helped to reinvigorate the political process and the political parties, and I understand why the Bill has reignited the debate on these issues.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

The Minister has mentioned the registration of young voters in Scotland. What was done there to get the registration rates so high was great. Is he aware that the registration rate for 18-year-olds in England and Wales is as low as 55%, so if this provision goes ahead, we will really have to work hard to get the registration rate up?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The Bill contains measures to encourage the Assembly to engage with younger people and encourage them to register, should it wish to extend the franchise in the referendum on income tax varying powers.

[Chris Ruane]

Has the Minister heard of an organisation called Bite the Ballot? It can go into sixth forms and register 100% of the students at a cost of only 25p per registration. Does he think that the Assembly—and, indeed, the UK Government—should be working closely with organisations such as Bite the Ballot to get the registration rate up?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am not familiar with that organisation, so it would not be right for me to endorse its activities at this stage. Clearly, however, any activity that encourages people who are eligible to vote to do so is broadly positive, and I would encourage the Welsh Government, the Assembly and the UK Administration to engage with a range of organisations and bodies to support that aim further.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Minister is right to say that the referendum in Scotland reinvigorated the political process there, but that is because it was on a definitive issue. The proposed referendum for Wales is on a very technical point—the partial income tax arrangement—and is it not a danger that that is hardly going to excite the masses? Does that indicate that if we are to have another referendum in Wales, it has to be on something meaningful which is going to alter radically the devolution settlement?

[Alun Cairns]

We spent the earlier part of this debate discussing Lords amendments relating to the referendum, and I believed that the hon. Gentleman, in his usual positive way, as well as Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members, thought that the referendum on income tax varying powers would be definitive. It gives a great opportunity for political parties to sell the great prospect that lower taxes could bring to Wales, and the resulting wealth-creating opportunities.

[Jonathan Edwards]

My point is that if we are to have a referendum, it needs to be on a point of principle, and the principle of fiscal devolution has been conceded already in the Wales Bill with the devolution of the minor taxes.

[Alun Cairns]

I am not sure where this is going, but I accept that the engagement of young people is exceptionally important. The purpose of this Lords amendment is to devolve the power for the referendum to the Welsh Assembly, and it can therefore make judgments accordingly.

[Glyn Davies]

I questioned the need for a referendum. Although we accept that it is part of the Bill, does the Minister think there may be a possibility at some future stage of getting to a position where we can proceed with this income tax raising power, despite Labour’s opposition, by including it in a general election manifesto and not having a referendum?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that, and I pay tribute to him for his speech. The debate on devolution is moving quickly and the referendum in Scotland has changed the debate across the whole of the UK. It is up to each political party to make its judgment. It is almost certain that there will be a Wales Bill in the next Parliament, whoever is in government. There will be an opportunity for him to make the case at that stage, and for each political party to make the case leading up to the election and include an element relating to that in its manifesto.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

On the amendment that allows the Assembly to decide on the franchise for the referendum on tax powers, does the Minister agree that allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vote on the tax issue and then not allowing them to vote in a subsequent Assembly election would send a very odd message about trust in young people?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I do not agree with him on that specific point. The Wales Bill provides the opportunity for the Assembly to introduce a referendum on tax varying powers, to the degree that we have already considered. That will extend the franchise specifically in this area. It learns the lessons from Scotland and creates the opportunity for us to reinvigorate young people in this area. However, the debate on the franchise in general for other elections is very different; there is no general consensus on that across all parties in the House and it is a constitutional matter that will be ongoing. It is not part of this Bill, but I have no doubt that it will form part of future debates that many parties will want to have.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Further to the points made by the hon. Members for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), extending the suffrage down to 16 and 17-year-olds could indeed be part of a manifesto commitment. Such an approach might avoid the problem of the referendum being on a narrow issue to do with tax and of this measure being in one Wales Bill, and it would replicate the commitment made by the leader of the Labour party this week to do just that.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, but that is a major constitutional change covering lots of other political areas and it is well beyond the scope of this Bill. I am seeking to address amendments that will allow the Assembly to make progress in this area, should it wish to do so. It is up to the Assembly to make its own decisions. This provision devolves the power for it to extend the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. However, it is important to recognise that there is no consensus across parties on the issue of changing the franchise to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in elections in general.

In the specific case of the income tax referendum, the Government have listened to those who have called on them to look afresh at the issue. When the Secretary of State took office, he said that he wanted to be pragmatic and to listen to the views of the people. Part of that pragmatism is recognising the impact that the Scotland referendum had on politics across the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

To assist the debate, may I use the example of a 96-year-old person whom I met on Sunday? He was receiving the Ushakov medal for his work on the Arctic convoys. At the age of 14, he enlisted with the merchant navy and spent six months training on HMS Warspite and then sailed up the Amazon nine months later. He was certainly ready to vote, and so were the students who met me in Parliament last week to discuss the importance of voting at the age of 16 and 17. Let us just bite the bullet and do it.

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and to the two constituents in my own constituency who have recently received medals from the Russian Government. None the less, he makes a point that goes well beyond the scope of the Bill, and that will be part of an important debate in the future. He will be able to make his point again when the time comes.

[Mr Mark Williams]

How are we to tell constituents that we are, on the one hand, allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vote, but on the other, denying them the franchise to vote in general, local or Assembly elections? How would the Minister explain that inconsistency? I suspect that after this amendment, which I very much welcome, we will need some answers to that question.

[Alun Cairns]

I suggest that the age of majority is different for different processes across the United Kingdom. It is a major constitutional change to extend the franchise for all elections. The scope of this Bill is specific about extending powers to the Welsh Assembly, and it is for the Assembly to decide. Who knows, the Welsh Assembly may not decide to extend the franchise to younger voters. It is up to it to decide on a referendum for income tax varying powers in Wales. That is the answer that the hon. Gentleman might wish to give to his constituents. This measure is not about extending the franchise to 16-year-olds, but about granting the power and the opportunity for the Assembly to decide on that basis.

[Geraint Davies]

It is one thing to say that there is a strong case for people of 16 to have a vote as they have a general knowledge of politics in the round and can make an informed decision, but the argument we are trying to make is whether young voters who have never voted can suddenly grasp the technicalities of setting different rates at different levels and what that implies. That is not much of an encouragement to enter the world of democracy. It is a highly technical issue. Will the Minister now at least serve notice on the fact that he will be championing a general franchise for people of 16 to vote in future elections?

[Alun Cairns]

I think the hon. Gentleman is underestimating the capacity of young people to grasp technicalities. I have far more confidence in younger people to be able to consider such matters. He makes an important point, but it could easily be made in another debate. This is about extending the power to the Assembly to decide, and not about extending the franchise to young people per se. We are simply devolving the power. The Assembly has had a vote on extending the franchise to younger voters, and there was a majority in favour of it, but when it comes to make its own choice specifically on a matter such as this, who knows what will ultimately come forward.

As a result, on Third Reading in the other place we tabled amendments to allow the Assembly to decide whether 16 and 17-year-olds should be able to vote in an income tax referendum. As the volume of interventions we have heard indicates, this is the first opportunity the House has had to consider the matter, and I look forward to hearing the contributions that are to follow. It is the Assembly that will decide when to call a referendum, and it is right that it should decide who can vote in it. The amendment puts that decision in the hands of the Assembly, just as it was put in the hands of the Scottish Parliament for September’s referendum.

These amendments also provide that if the Assembly resolves that the voting age is to be lowered to 16, the resulting order to be laid by the Secretary of State would also provide for the creation of a register of young voters. That register would include those who will have attained the age of 16 on the date of the income tax referendum and those age 17 who are not already listed on the register of local government electors as an attainer—that is, a 17-year-old who will turn 18 before the next electoral register is published. The important point is that those who have attained the age of 16 on the date of the poll will be eligible to vote in an income tax referendum if they appear on either the register of young voters or the register of local government electors.

I should also be clear about what these amendments do not do. They do not devolve competence over the wider franchise to the Assembly, as I have previously stated, and they do not allow the Assembly to decide the voting age for any poll other than that for an income tax referendum. The franchise for elections in Wales remains solely within the power of this Parliament. I know that there are strongly held views on both sides of the House about reducing the voting age—we heard some of them earlier. I want to reassure hon. Members who might be concerned that these amendments set a precedent for future elections that they do not. It is important to underline that they do not set a precedent. They relate specifically to an income tax referendum in Wales, and to no other poll. They give the Assembly a choice for that referendum. If and when a trigger vote is held, it would be for the Assembly to decide whether the voting age will be 16 or 18. I therefore ask the House to support these amendments.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I am pleased to put on record Labour’s support for the Lords amendments to clause 13 and schedule 1, which will enable the Welsh Government to set a voting age of 16 in a future referendum on income tax powers. Labour believes that the National Assembly for Wales should have responsibility for its own electoral arrangements. Lords amendment 14 will insert a new subsection (1A) into clause 13 to provide that if the First Minister or a Welsh Minister moves a resolution in the Assembly under clause 13(1)(a) requesting that an order be made under clause 12 to cause an income tax referendum to be held in Wales, that resolution must state whether the voting age at such a referendum is to be 16 or 18.

I have long been a supporter of votes at 16, on which Labour Members have provided a strong lead. I pay tribute particularly to Julie Morgan, a former MP and now Assembly Member for Cardiff North, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) for their campaigning on the issue. We saw the success of allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the Scottish independence referendum. Following the Smith commission, responsibility for electoral matters is on the cards to be devolved to Scotland. My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), the leader of the Labour party, has urged the UK Government to ensure that that happens in time for the 2016 elections to the Scottish Parliament. Control over electoral arrangements should likewise be devolved to Wales and Northern Ireland.

The Lords amendments reflect our belief that electoral arrangements should be devolved to Wales and our commitment to extending the franchise for all elections to 16 and 17-year-olds. Furthermore, this week my right hon. Friend made it absolutely clear that a future Labour Government would legislate to lower the voting age to 16, and it would be interesting to hear the Minister’s position on that issue. We would also legislate to devolve electoral arrangements to the Welsh Assembly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Ruane]

My hon. Friend is taking issue with the right hon. Gentleman. There is a place for such terminology in some debates, but perhaps not those with 16-year-olds.

The issue of civics should go beyond finance and how we organise our economy. The finances of a country can impinge on wider issues such as racism, sexism and consumerism. There are threats from parties out there that are against the fabric of our British society. They want to promote the issue of race. It is fine if they want to discuss that, but it has to be done with intelligence, not bigotry.

The introduction of voting rights for young people at the age of 16 for the income tax raising powers referendum is a good idea. We should be very wary of what the Electoral Commission has done—or has not done—in the past if we are to make sure that these young people are registered. The Electoral Commission should be contacting electoral registration officers in the 22 authorities in Wales to make sure that they know how to register these young people. It should be regularly monitoring best practice from around the UK—indeed, around the world—and relaying that information to the Welsh Government in Cardiff to make sure that best practice is pursued in Wales for the purposes of registration for the referendum.

Best practice in registering young people exists in Northern Ireland. The EROs in Northern Ireland are proactive in going out to schools to register young people. We should be doing that, but the Electoral Commission has refused to replicate in the rest of the UK what is now done in Northern Ireland.

The Electoral Commission has failed to ensure that electoral registration officers obey the law. Statutorily, they must knock on the door of non-responders. If a 16-year-old was not registered to vote for the referendum, for example, the local ERO would have to go round, knock on the door and register that 16-year-old. Even though that requirement has been set out in law for many years, there has not been a single prosecution of an ERO who has broken the law. One ERO in Devon has broken the law by not conducting a door-to-door canvass for five years on the trot, but the Electoral Commission has done nothing about it.

We should make sure that the Electoral Commission warns EROs in Wales about that. We do have best practice in Wales. My own electoral registration officer, Gareth Evans, is one of best performing EROs in the whole country, but not all officers are as good as him, and we need to make sure that they all perform at the standards of the best so that young people are registered.

The Electoral Commission has failed miserably to use the most effective and efficient third-party organisations, such as Bite the Ballot, to get young people on to the electoral register. Bite the Ballot can register young people for as little as 25p per registration, but when one compares the cost of the Electoral Commission’s advertising campaign with the number of registration forms downloaded from the internet, it spent £80 per registration in 2005. The commission should therefore work with EROs in Wales, as well as with Bite the Ballot, to encourage them to ensure that 16-year-olds are registered from the outset.

This is a great opportunity, and I congratulate both elements of the coalition, especially the Conservatives. It is not in their nature to extend the vote. They are rightly fearful of young people, which is perhaps why they are not talking much about the lack of registration at national level. Registration rates in some wards in student areas of big university cities such as Manchester and Liverpool are as low as 20% following the move over to IER. I congratulate everyone, including my Front-Bench colleagues, and I hope that we will learn from this opportunity and go on to extend to 16 to 18-year-olds the right to vote in all elections.

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) for the positive way in which he has ended this debate. He contributed to it by highlighting the need for young people to be educated about the process, and the need for us to engage with the activities of electoral registration officers, which were mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Ceredigion (Mr Williams).

The Lords amendments are intended to be positive. They will extend the powers of the Assembly. They provide greater powers than those in the original Bill, and this is the first time that we have had the opportunity to discuss them. At some stages of the debate, I felt that although all parties are in favour of those powers, they were being welcomed almost through gritted teeth. I am therefore grateful to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd for finishing on a positive note.

Some hon. Members said that they have campaigned for votes at 16 for a very long time, but if there was such support, the extension of the vote could have been done during the 13 years of the previous Labour Administration. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) pointed out that he tabled amendments at the time and they were certainly not accepted by Labour. However, I want to be positive.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

It is a shame that the Minister is speaking on a sour note. May I ask him to bear in mind the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) made about encouraging electoral registration officers and others to register young people at age 15, when they get their national insurance number? That seems a good idea, so will the Minister contact his colleagues in the Cabinet Office to encourage it? It would be administratively neat and I suspect that, as my hon. Friend suggested, it would help boost voter registration among young people, which has to be a good thing. We should have this debate in that positive way rather than go in a sour direction, as the Minister has done.

[Alun Cairns]

I do not intend to be sour in any way, shape or form. I want to be positive, because the Bill will extend the powers of the Assembly and is welcomed by all parties. It is important that it is recognised in that way, rather than in the churlish way in which it has been welcomed in some quarters. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point positively, and the Cabinet Office will have heard his suggestion and the contributions of other Members, including the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd. Those points go well beyond the scope of the Lords amendments, but they have been well made and received in a positive way, which is how the debate should finish.

The Bill has passed through both Houses, and we all need to recognise that it represents a major shift in powers and that there is a great opportunity for Wales, the Assembly and the Welsh Government if they use those powers productively and enthusiastically. I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for how he has handled the Bill since taking office, but also to his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), for his contribution in steering the Bill through the House, and to Baroness Randerson for her activities in the other place. I also pay tribute to the officials and everyone else who has worked on the Bill, particularly in the Wales Office. I hope that the House will support the Lords amendments.

Lords amendment 14 agreed to, with Commons financial privilege waived.

Lords amendments 15 and 16 agreed to, with Commons financial privilege waived.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

1. What recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on the provision of free child care places for three and four-year-olds in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Support with high-quality flexible child care is key to enabling parents to stay in the work force and gain financial stability for their families. The UK Government are increasing the provision of tax-free child care from next year; the Welsh Government need to do their part in supporting working families in Wales.

[Jenny Willott]

Parents in Cardiff complain that they cannot access their free child care entitlement. They can only get a place if they apply for three hours a day, five days a week at a state-run nursery school, which is useless if they work. Given that that means that parents in Wales are worse off than those in England, will the Minister speak to Assembly Ministers to ensure that parents can access their entitlement to free child care places in a way that suits them and not the Labour council?

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for her work in this area in a number of roles in Parliament. The UK Government have pressed authorities in England to be as flexible as possible and have structured their policies around flexibility to enable more people to get into work and to manage their daily lives better. I will happily pursue the matter with the Welsh Government on her behalf.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

We have heard about problems in Cardiff, but of course there are problems with good and affordable child care throughout Wales. For example, in rural areas there is sometimes a 200% difference in the cost from one local authority to the next. Will the Minister do his best to ensure that the Welsh Government access funds, if they exist, for that purpose and that there is a proper dialogue on this subject?

[Alun Cairns]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the variation in child care costs. Stability has finally come to the marketplace. The Government’s £2,000 tax-free child care account will create greater flexibility, provide more choice to parents and hopefully contribute to driving down costs.

[Mr Llwyd]

That is a step forward, but the Minister will be aware that good, affordable child care is key to economic development. He is probably also aware that in the UK we pay far more for child care than most other OECD countries—40.9% of the average wage compared with 18%. In Sweden, by contrast, the figure is 7.1%. Does he think that we have anything to learn from the Nordic countries in that regard?

[Alun Cairns]

It is important that we learn from wherever good practice is in place. The greater choice will help to drive down costs, but it is important that we provide the right level of care, and the quality of care is important. I have no doubt that the stronger role that parents have to play in exercising that choice will also drive up the quality of care.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

2. What discussions he is having with the Welsh Government on waiting times for cross-border health treatment in Montgomeryshire and Shropshire.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

6. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on cross-border rail services.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The Wales Office has worked closely with the Department for Transport and the Welsh Government to resolve the dispute over funding for rail electrification. Electrification of the south Wales main line will bring significant journey time savings, an increase in capacity and a much improved passenger experience.

[Jessica Morden]

My constituents who use commuter services to places such as Bristol are increasingly frustrated by overcrowding and lack of capacity. Will the Minister make the point to the Department for Transport that the operator of the new First Great Western franchise must be able to meet demand for such services now, and anticipate future demand, which will only grow?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady has already made that important point to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. The Secretary of State for Transport has set a minimum service requirement based on the current level of services between south Wales and London, and I have no doubt but that the hon. Lady will be a feisty champion for ensuring that those local services remain.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

I congratulate the Front-Bench team on securing great investment in the railways, particularly for cross-border services between England and Wales. They know that I have long supported improvement in those services. Will Ministers tell me what discussions they have had with either the Treasury or the Department for Transport on the possibility of Barnettising the investment in High Speed 2? That would make a great difference to investment in Wales.

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for the role she played at the Wales Office, which contributed to early negotiations on the electrification of the railways. Of course, HS2 is a UK strategic project and therefore will not be Barnettised.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

What is missing from this failed economic plan is any rail strategy that deals with freight. The main corridor from the Republic of Ireland to Wales and England comes through north Wales. Will the Minister press the Treasury to ensure that we alleviate the problems on our roads, not by building motorways in marginals, but by building freight lines across England and Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Early in the new year, we plan a transport summit in north-east Wales to highlight businesses’ needs, and to ensure that business has the opportunity to make its case for electrification, so that the electrification taskforce of my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), and the recommendations made to the Secretary of State, can be taken into account. Freight is of course an important part of that.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

Although the south Wales to London line always attracts a great deal of publicity and concern in this Chamber, the Minister should not forget the importance of the Birmingham to Machynlleth line, which is fragile and often single track. Will the Government maintain their position that the line should, wherever possible, always be open?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his persistent interest in these sorts of matters in Wales. This is an important issue, not only for the Wales Office but for the Department for Transport. It is a subject in which the Welsh Government will also want to show an interest.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

In all of this, things seem to have gone a little bit quiet on the issue of north Wales electrification. Will the Minister update the House on his plans to ensure that it is an objective that he will seek to achieve?

[Alun Cairns]

On the contrary, things have not gone quiet on north Wales electrification. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales was in north-east and north-west Wales last week, championing the need for business to grow and make its case, so that when the Secretary of State for Transport makes his final judgments on the next round of investment, north Wales is at the forefront of his mind.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

The Silk commission has proposed devolving the Wales and Borders rail franchise to the Welsh Assembly. That franchise includes services from Chester to Manchester, Chester to Warrington and Chester to Crewe. What action is my hon. Friend taking to make sure that services in England are not devolved to the Welsh Assembly?

[Alun Cairns]

The devolution of the electrification of the franchise is part of the electrification decisions that were taken for the valley lines and I am sure my hon. Friend will want to make a case for services that start and finish in England. The joint agreement between the Department for Transport and the Welsh Government continues, and my hon. Friend will no doubt want to make his views known.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What assessment he has made of the reasons for changes in average weekly earnings in Wales in the last 12 months.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of the reasons for changes in average weekly earnings in Wales in the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Salary levels are not where we would like them to be, but over the past year the earnings gap between Wales and the average for the UK as a whole has narrowed. Since 2010, average earnings in Wales have increased by more than the UK average, and Wales has seen the second largest increase of all the English regions and devolved nations.

[Chris Evans]

Caerphilly county borough council is clocking up a year as a living wage employer. Will the Minister follow its example and that of the Welsh Assembly by becoming a living wage employer at the Wales Office?

[Alun Cairns]

The Wales Office already pays above the living wage. That is an important part of our policy, but it is a matter for employers. The best solution is to deliver a long-term economic plan so that employers can pay the living wage where possible. The greater competition that we see in the work force will help to drive wages even further.

[Mark Tami]

Average earnings in Flintshire fell again this year by 1.5%, in the Vale of Glamorgan by 1.3% and in Pembrokeshire by 5%. When will the Government own up to their terrible management of the economy and deliver for Welsh families?

[Alun Cairns]

That accusation about the management of the economy is not reflected in the fastest growing economy among the developed nations of the world, because this Government’s long-term economic plan is working. The hon. Gentleman talks of average increases in salary. The trends from 2010 to the present show that average weekly earnings in Wales have increased by 5%, compared with 3.9% across the whole of the UK.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to increase average earnings in Wales and in constituencies such as Harlow is to cut council tax for low earners and freeze fuel duty and council tax, just as this Government have done?

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Whereas council tax in England has broadly been frozen, council tax in Wales has gone up by 13% in spite of additional funding being given to freeze it. If there was such a cost of living crisis as the Opposition claim, they would be pressing their colleagues in local authorities and in the Welsh Government to ensure that they do not increase council tax as they have.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

Does the Tories’ much trumpeted economic plan not mean depressed earnings in Wales, generating lower taxes, and Government borrowing overshooting Labour’s planned target by more than £20 billion—the very deficit target luridly denounced by the Tories, who said it would bankrupt the country? Why does the Minister not apologise for this abysmal failure in the Government’s austerity strategy?

[Alun Cairns]

As the right hon. Gentleman was part of the previous Government, he should apologise for leaving Wales the poorest part of the United Kingdom. He should further apologise for the fact that wages fell at the sharpest rate between 2008 and 2009. The Government’s long-term economic plan is working for Wales, and wages are rising quicker in Wales than across the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The Minister knows that low wages and poor jobs affect not just individuals and their families, but the public finances. Will he tell us what has happened to tax receipts and welfare spending in Wales since his Government came to power?

[Alun Cairns]

We will receive a statement from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor a little later which will cover the UK financial position, but I hope the hon. Gentleman, who is the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, will welcome the progress that the Government are making in reducing unemployment and in growing wages in Wales.

[Owen Smith]

The Minister does not need to wait for the autumn statement, because the numbers are publicly available. Tax receipts in Wales have fallen by £2 billion since 2010, and benefit spending has gone up by £1.5 billion. That has piled an extra £6,000-worth of borrowing on every Welsh worker, and what have they got for it? They have got a twentyfold increase in food bank usage, the lowest wages in Wales and a cost of living crisis. The Tories have failed on the deficit, failed on the cost of living crisis, and they are failing in Wales once again.

[Alun Cairns]

The shadow Secretary of State has clearly got his facts wrong. The long-term economic plan is working for Wales. If there has been a reduction in tax receipts from Wales, it is because of our increase in the personal allowance, under which next year the average worker will pay less than £800 as a result, taking 155,000 people in Wales out of income tax altogether by next April.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

8. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on when the electrification of the valleys railway line will be completed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

11. What recent discussions he has had on delivery of the online universal credit application process in the Welsh language.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I recently discussed the provision of Welsh language services for universal credit with the welfare reform Minister, Lord Freud, who confirmed that the Department for Work and Pensions is making good progress with the development of the universal credit digital service. A meeting is scheduled with the Welsh language commissioner in the new year to discuss Welsh language provision for the live service.

[Hywel Williams]

I recently met the team delivering the service, who are doing a good job under difficult circumstances. They told me that the Welsh language version will not be available until after the English language version is available. Will the Minister find out why that is, and when it will happen?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales was there only last week when this issue was discussed at the Jobcentre Plus. I have also raised it with the DWP Minister. We are meeting the Welsh language commissioner to ensure that we develop a service that is appropriate and applicable, and that grows with the growth of universal credit across the whole of Wales.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Government Policies (Wales)

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. Yes, of course that is right. The evidence is right before our eyes: over 50% of Welsh local authorities have had to use top-up discretionary housing payments to deal with the volume of problems created by the changes to welfare in Wales, versus just 27% in England. That is more evidence that Wales is being hit harder on the watch of the Secretary of State and the Minister than anywhere else in the UK.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Will the shadow Secretary of State explain, therefore, why only three of the 22 local authorities have applied for additional discretionary housing payment to help with hardship as a result of the spare room subsidy changes?

[Owen Smith]

Some 54% of local authorities in Wales have used up most of their discretionary housing spending. The figure for England is 27%. Wales is harder hit than anywhere else and we are having to spend more money. If the Minister seriously suggests that the DWP figures are wrong, and that Wales does not have a greater volume of people hit by the bedroom tax than anywhere else, he can tell us, but I am sure that he will not disagree with the DWP. I am sure that he will agree with me that 40,000-odd people in Wales are affected, 25,000 of whom are disabled.

[Alun Cairns]

I will happily clarify that Cardiff, Caerphilly and Conwy are the only three local authorities, of the 22 in Wales, that have asked for an uplift in discretionary housing payment to help with hardship. Why did other local authorities around Wales not do so if the situation is as bad as the hon. Gentleman suggests?

[Owen Smith]

Let me tell the hon. Gentleman something very simple that he could do to stop this back and forth about numbers: he could think about the impact on people in his constituency and mine, and those of all other hon. Members, and he could scrap the bedroom tax tomorrow. That is what Labour will do if we are elected. We will get rid of it in a heartbeat. Frankly, the nonsense about who has applied for which grant demeans this debate, which is a serious debate about the impact on real people.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I thank all Members for their valuable contributions. It is fair to say that the tone of the debate changed somewhat from the negative one that prevailed at the outset to the more measured contributions by the hon. Members for Islwyn (Chris Evans), for Aberavon (Dr Francis) and for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies).

This coalition Government inherited an economy that was on its knees. Throughout the past decade, we have had an unstable model for the economy. There was an over-reliance on the public sector, the financial services sector and economic growth from London and the south-east. In spite of the crocodile tears and the synthetic anger that we saw from the shadow Secretary of State, the situation was even more perilous in Wales. One of the saddest legacies that we inherited from the previous Administration was that Wales was the poorest part of the United Kingdom, and that was after 13 years of control from Labour Members. Ultimately, their economic model came crashing down.

We have a long-term economic plan that is working and delivering the recovery for Wales. It is based on investment in infrastructure—both digital and traditional —the development of skills, welfare reform, and making Wales and the rest of the UK a more competitive environment for business, which is something that some Labour Members have recognised today. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for being a strong and doughty champion for small businesses and the self-employed in his constituency.

[Geraint Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the British economy grew by 40% in the 10 years to 2008, before the banking crisis? Since then it has virtually flatlined, which is why his party has borrowed more in four years than the Labour party did in 13. It is a disaster.

[Alun Cairns]

I will happily repeat that, in 1997, Wales was not the poorest part of the United Kingdom. But between 1997 and 2010, Wales sadly and tragically became so. That was when the hon. Gentleman was a Member for Croydon Central, before he decided to come back home to Wales, so he will have played a part in the policies that led to such a devastating consequence for Wales and the Welsh people, and that is something for which he should apologise. Investing in infrastructure is key to our economic plan, and Wales has rightly received significant sums for some major projects.

I cannot mention railways without paying tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales for his hard work and persistence in seeking a solution to secure the electrification of the line all the way to Swansea and of the valley lines as well. That is the largest investment in railways in Wales since Victorian times. Wales was sadly left in the slow lane when it came to railways. After 13 years of a Labour Administration, Wales, Moldova and Albania were the only three countries in Europe that did not have any electrified railways. Wales is now set to benefit from rail investment worth £2 billion. Our north Wales link to Liverpool is being renewed through the Halton Curve, which is welcomed by all businesses in north-east Wales and north-west England. Crewe is becoming a hub station for HS2, which offers new opportunities to the whole of north Wales, ensuring that we all benefit from this major UK strategic investment.

It was 12 months ago that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced a funding package to enable the upgrade of the M4 around Newport, which was something for which businesses had been calling across the whole of the south Wales corridor. That project was cancelled by the previous Administration in 1997 after my right hon. Friend, the current Leader of the House, committed to it when he was the Secretary of State for Wales. The project was cancelled by Labour but reinstated by the Conservatives.

I was sorry that the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) did not welcome the £212 million investment for a new prison in Wrexham. Even after it is up and running, its operational activity will involve £23 million being pumped into the economy each year.

Wales is playing its part in our energy infrastructure upgrade after years of neglect that led to the risk of the lights going out throughout the United Kingdom.

[Albert Owen]

The Minister is aware that Wales pays among the highest distribution costs in the whole of the United Kingdom, as is reflected in our bills, so would he support flattening those costs throughout the United Kingdom? Some areas might have to pay a little more, but north-west Wales actually produces energy and we pay too much for it through our bills.

[Alun Cairns]

Of course, that is a matter for Ofgem, as an independent organisation. I know that it has made changes and I look forward to its further deliberations. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises the major investment of £20 billion for Wylfa nuclear power station on Anglesey, which will create 6,000 construction jobs alone.

Of course, such activity does not stop at hard infrastructure, and upgrading our digital networks is central to our plans. Wales is benefiting from £69 million of Government investment for superfast broadband to provide access to more than 275,000 homes and businesses, although I did not hear any welcome for that from Labour Members. By spring 2016, 96% of Wales will have access to superfast broadband connectivity. Further digital projects include Cardiff and Newport being part of the Government’s super-connected cities programme. A pilot programme in Monmouthshire to tackle hard-to-reach areas offers exciting prospects, while the mobile infrastructure project to which the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) referred is a clear plan to start filling the not spots.

As well as dealing with infrastructure, there was a need to reform the benefits system. The historical problems of worklessness in some communities in Wales were another legacy of the previous Labour Administration, but the Work programme is offering new prospects. It has already supported back into work more than 15,000 of those who were furthest away from employment. Universal credit is simplifying the tax and benefit system and increasing the incentive to work. Some 200,000 households in Wales will have higher entitlements under universal credit—on average, £163 more a month—and the poorest claimants will benefit the most. Shotton in Flintshire is already live and the rest of Wales will be online by April 2016. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to change the benefits system for the better. The changes offer the opportunity of transforming the fortunes and prospects of families and communities. Alongside the benefits cap and other measures, they will make work pay for everyone.

Supporting business is a key part of the long-term economic plan. More than £100 million has been provided to businesses in Wales through the business bank. More than 600 start-up loans have been awarded to businesses in Wales to release the entrepreneurial spirit mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy. Some 35,000 businesses in Wales have benefited from the employment allowance to help them to grow and take on new workers. We have a disproportionate dependence on energy-intensive industries, and they will benefit from our energy package of £240 million, which I am sure that the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) will welcome in the light of his interest in the industry in his constituency. Our enterprise zones on Deeside, and at Ebbw Vale and Haven Waterway, will benefit from enhanced capital allowances until 2020, which will give investors incentives and security.

If I had time, I could highlight so many more policy areas where I can show that Wales is coming back. Outcomes are the most important measures. I have been talking about inputs until now. When we combine the impact of these changes as part of our long-term economic plan, there is little wonder that the number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance has fallen for 20 consecutive months—

[Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

Welfare Reform (Welsh Valleys)

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

It is a privilege to have the opportunity to respond to the debate and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. I congratulate the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) on securing this important debate.

I have listened carefully to the concerns raised by the hon. Gentleman and other right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed. The Government are making welfare changes that will turn around so many communities and offer them hope. I want to underline at the outset the context and circumstances in which our reforms are taking place.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly talked about the economic situation in the valley communities. I wonder whether he will acknowledge that although Wales is now the poorest part of the United Kingdom, that was not the situation inherited by the previous Labour Government in 1997. Over the duration of the previous Administration, Wales became the poorest part of the United Kingdom. We have heard about regeneration plans, but we did not see any of those plans succeed or transform the prospects of the communities that he highlighted.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Just to test the logic of the Minister’s proposition, does he recognise that the last time we saw a massive increase in those on incapacity benefit and other benefits was during the 1980s? I do not want to revisit the wholesale closure of the mines, but will he tell me what regeneration strategy was put in place at that time?

[Alun Cairns]

I find it strange that the hon. Gentleman has gone back to the 1980s. I was still in school—that is how long ago it was.

It is relevant that when this Government came to power in 2010, Wales was the poorest part, nationally or regionally, of the United Kingdom. In 1997, when the previous Labour Government came to power, it was not. There needs to be a recognition of the context in which the welfare changes are taking place. The data are quite stark. The hon. Member for Caerphilly mentioned support from European aid that has gone to west Wales and the valleys. I remember that that support was discussed as a one-off opportunity, but we have just come to the third prospective round of European aid. That demonstrates the legacy that the previous Administration left.

[Nia Griffith]

Will the Minister tell us what he is going to do to improve the record of his Government’s Work programme, which is failing the people in the valleys, and particularly those who are furthest from the workplace, such that Oxfam Cymru has said that some people are being “parked” and are not being given the opportunities they should have?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that point. I will cover that as I make some progress with my speech.

I want to underline the context in which the Government are responding, with Wales, sadly, the poorest part of the United Kingdom. We inherited a situation in which parts of Wales were also sadly blighted with worklessness. In some communities, a third of the working age population were claiming out-of-work benefits. The Government had to act. We have taken steps—

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Alun Cairns]

In a moment—with the greatest of respect, I would like to make an element of progress, certainly at the outset.

We have taken steps to deal with the legacy of a welfare system that encouraged dependency and penalised those who wanted to work. The benefits system was clearly broken. It did not work for claimants, for the economy or the people of those communities or for the nation’s finances. According to the Work and Pensions Committee, a parent who increased their hours from 16 to 30 hours of work a week would gain less than £1 for every extra hour they worked. It was hardly a system that incentivised people to do the right thing. That sort of example underlines absolutely the need for reform.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept the thrust of the Beatty-Fothergill report? In Torfaen, which is a valleys constituency, £34 million is sucked out of the local economy every year, depriving it of expansion and entrepreneurship in my constituency, just like all the other Welsh constituencies. Do the Government accept that that is a really serious issue that we need to look at?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making that point, but that report does not take account of the incentives that are built into the welfare reforms, nor does it recognise the increased income that the poorest in the community will receive from the universal credit. I will come to that.

[Nia Griffith]

Will the Minister take up with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions the serious issue of the taper on universal credit, which will mean that work will not pay? That is exactly the opposite of what he and we want to see.

[Alun Cairns]

I hope to come to universal credit if I make progress in my speech.

Welfare reform is part of the long-term economic plan to stabilise the nation’s economy, to deal with the years of financial mismanagement under the last Government, and to get the people of Britain, including Wales, back to work. The Government want to move people from dependence to independence. We must enable them to free themselves from a lifetime on benefits and enable them to achieve their ambitions.

The previous Government, to their credit, recognised the need for changes to the welfare system. Various Governments attempted to address the issues, but only tweaked an already failed system. Another tweak was not an option. An overhaul was required, so we are creating a new welfare system in Wales and throughout the UK based on flexibility, simplicity and fairness. We want a system that can respond to the modern and flexible labour market, while ensuring that no individual is worse off by accepting a job. We want a system that is easy for people to use.

[Wayne David]

The Minister says he does not want people to be worse off by accepting employment, but part of the Government’s strategy is to reduce the value of benefits so that there is more incentive for people to take low-wage jobs because they are receiving hardly anything, and sometimes nothing, on welfare.

[Alun Cairns]

I am trying to get on to universal credit, but I will highlight how the poorest will be better off financially. We cannot take one policy in isolation and we must consider the reduction in unemployment—I hope that the hon. Gentleman recognises and welcomes it—as well as other economic changes.

We want a system that is easy for people to use but ensures that customers receive all the benefits to which they are entitled. We want a fair system that reflects the heart of our nation—a nation that looks after those who need it but ensures fairness for hard-working individuals and families.

Worklessness needed addressing and is being addressed. Surely we must all be concerned that 200,000 people in Wales have never worked. That is wholly unsustainable. As Welsh MPs, we should want the Government to do all they can to move people from dependence to independence. I am sure the hon. Member for Caerphilly supports that and that we can continue to enable people to free themselves from a lifetime on benefits and enable them to achieve their goals.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Does the Minister accept my proposal that to free someone from benefits to go into a job with poverty pay is a strange sort of freedom? Does he agree that we must ensure that that work pays and that there is no increase in the bill on taxpayers to subsidise poverty pay, as there is at the moment, including with housing benefit?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes a point that I will try to cover when I come to universal credit. The introduction of universal credit will always make people better off while they are in work. I have highlighted one example and could cite many more of people who were trapped in the benefits system. All parties have recognised the need for reform and the universal credit will bring about the change to move people from dependence to independence. Clearly, it is not good for individuals, their families or their communities to be out of work and it is certainly not good for the rest of the nation.

Successive Governments have failed to tackle the problem, but we have tackled it head-on. We are working to improve the incentive to work because it remains the best route out of poverty. Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that the latest statistics show that the number of workless households in Wales has fallen by 19,000. Across the south Wales valleys, 17,000 more people are in work since the election and almost 12,000 have come off benefits. I hope that the hon. Member for Caerphilly will recognise that.

[Wayne David]

Does the Minister accept that in-work poverty is now greater than ever before?

[Alun Cairns]

That is one thing that universal credit will put right because people will always be better off. I will come to that in a moment. Our reforms are already reaping benefits. People are moving from dependency on benefits and into work. That is a positive step for Wales, for communities and for the individuals who, for far too long, have been locked in the benefits system.

The welfare system we inherited was built for 1940s society and is no longer able to deliver the support that people need in a modern flexible labour market: the sort of market that communities are already adapting to. Our benefits system needs to reflect that and to support people who need it.

A flexible labour market will be supported by universal credit because households in Wales will be entitled to £163 more a month on average and 75% of those who will gain will be in the bottom 40% of the income distribution curve.

Nia Griffith: Will the Minister look again at research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation that has shown that some families, by working more hours, will lose out? Will he ask the Secretary of State to look again at how the taper will work in universal credit?

[Alun Cairns]

I will happily look at the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s report, but I again emphasise that universal credit will leave people with an average of £163 more a month and 75% of them will be in the bottom 40% of income distribution. My point is that the very poorest in society and the community will not only be incentivised by universal credit to get back into work, but receive an uplift in their monthly income as a result, as they stand. People will always be better off in work than in one example I have highlighted in which people were happy to work 16 hours a week because they retained their benefit, but working the 17th hour was simply not worth their while. That was not what they wanted, nor was it what employers wanted because of the inflexibility that that built into the labour market.

[Ann Clwyd]

What about the workers at Remploy? We heard all the arguments for shutting Remploy and getting rid of many disabled workers. I understand that very few of them have found alternative work. What about them?

[Alun Cairns]

With credit to the right hon. Lady, who has been a strong champion of constituents with disabled rights for many years and has gained respect throughout the House, I underline the comments made at the time by Disability Wales that Remploy and the segregation of disabled employees was something for the last century rather than this century. It wants the mainstreaming of disabled people. Disability Wales clearly recognises and champions that.

[Jonathan Edwards]

On universal credit, is it not the case, as the “Dispatches” programme highlighted last month, that the roll-out is in complete chaos and is a shambles, and that Jobcentre Plus is unable to deal with the demands of the roll-out set by the Department?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will know that, in Wales, Shotton in Flintshire is where universal credit has been rolled out. The response has been remarkable in incentivising people into work. Some 75% have responded positively and said that they are now in a better position to find work as a result of universal credit than they were under the previous system.

In the minute remaining, I ask Opposition Members for support, because there is a responsibility on all MPs. Reference was made to council cuts and I underline the fact that council taxes in Wales rose when there had broadly been a freeze in England. We need to draw attention to that. Local authorities must keep their bills as low as possible.

Housing benefit has been considered and discussed. Only three local authorities in Wales applied for additional discretionary housing payments. Caerphilly was one, so I give recognition and credit to Caerphilly. If housing benefit and the spare room subsidy are such an issue, why did the other 19 local authorities in Wales not make an application for the additional funding that was available? I hope that the hon. Member for Caerphilly would support that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

2. If he will estimate the potential effect of increasing the minimum wage rate by £1.50 on the economy in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The Government’s increase of 3% in the national minimum wage this year means that low-paid workers are enjoying the biggest cash increase in their take-home pay since 2008. The independent Low Pay Commission is responsible for recommending the level of the national minimum wage.

[Jessica Morden]

About 73,000 people in Wales are in minimum wage jobs, and a quarter of a million earn less than the living wage. Will the Minister commit his party to Labour’s plan to raise the minimum wage to £8 an hour, which would at least start to tackle the scandal of low pay in Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

I am surprised that the hon. Lady raises that question, given that the commitment to £8 an hour by 2020 has been somewhat derided by independent commentators—Alan Milburn himself said that it lacked ambition—because the current projection shows that the minimum wage will rise to £8.23 an hour by 2020.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

May I take this opportunity to welcome my hon. Friend the Minister to the Front Bench, along with the Secretary of State, and associate myself with the tribute to his predecessor? Is my hon. Friend aware of the work that has been done by the Mayor of London on the living wage, promoting the idea that public authorities themselves have powers when they structure their pay settlements to lift the position of those who are on the minimum wage and on their payroll? In that regard, perhaps he shares my disappointment that the trade unions in Wales have rejected the Welsh Assembly’s plan to do just that.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. Of course, it is a matter for employers to pay the living wage. The national minimum wage is set by the Low Pay Commission, but obviously when an employer can afford to pay the living wage, we would encourage them to do so.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

As the Minister mentioned, Alan Milburn and the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission have pointed out that under Labour’s minimum wage proposals, the rate of increase between now and 2020 would be slower than that between 1999 and 2014. Does he agree that what we have heard from the Labour party about an £8 minimum wage shows that the Labour machine is still firmly stuck on the spin cycle?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, which gives me the opportunity to underline yet again Alan Milburn’s point about the lack of ambition among those on the Labour Benches. Only my party cares about low pay and only my party has given, in the past year, the largest increase in the national minimum wage, 3%—more than twice the rate of inflation.

[Hywel Williams]

Does the Minister therefore agree with my contention that the way to achieve a basic but decent standard of life is the living wage, which would benefit 266,000 workers in Wales alone, and in the UK would slash the tax credits bill by £1.5 billion per annum? Clearly, Plaid Cymru’s policy on the living wage is the best for Wales and for the UK.

[Alun Cairns]

Where possible, we would encourage employers to pay the living wage, but the Government’s responsibility is to ensure that the national minimum wage is adhered to. It is set independently, and it is a balanced discussion between employers, Government and employees.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

If Conservative Members are so keen on improving poor wages, why did they do everything in their power to prevent the national minimum wage from coming into law? Why do Conservative Ministers regularly accuse the poor of being workshy when actually, in my constituency, many of the most hard-working are those who are hit by a double whammy—low wages and few hours? That means that when they travel to work in Wales they are working a damn sight harder than the Minister ever did.

[Alun Cairns]

We have not only increased the national minimum wage by the largest cash increase since 2008 but taken the lowest earners out of income tax, which means that a full-time employee on the national minimum wage is paying two thirds less income tax. I hope that that is something that the hon. Gentleman would welcome.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

4. What estimate he has made of the number of people in Wales working on zero-hours contracts.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Zero-hours contracts benefit many employers and employees in Wales, but we are committed to taking strong action against abuse by banning the use of exclusivity clauses.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank the Minister for that response, but does he not recognise the negative impact that zero-hours contracts have on family life, the well-being and mental and physical health of individual workers, and morale at work? Under this Government the number of zero-hours contracts has shot through the roof; what can the Minister do to reduce it?

[Alun Cairns]

Again, I am surprised by the tactic used by the hon. Gentleman. If zero-hours contracts are so wrong, why do Labour-run local authorities make active use of them? Furthermore, why do more than 60 MPs make active use of zero-hours contracts?

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

In welcoming the new Minister to his post, may I suggest that, instead of trying to do an impression of a jumped-up rottweiler, he should try to understand and recognise the reality of the miserable state of employment for far too many workers in Wales, whether they are on zero-hours contracts, are among the 150,000 who are underemployed and want to work more hours but cannot, or are among the 50,000 people who are being shoved off disability benefits and into a world of work that is mean, difficult and hard?

[Alun Cairns]

The abuse of zero-hours contracts is an important issue and that is why this Government are taking action to ban them. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned people in part-time employment. Only 19% of part-time employees are looking for full-time work. We will take strong action against those employers that are abusing zero-hours contracts, but zero-hours contracts are important to many people, such as carers, to encourage and facilitate their path back to the workplace.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Over 50,000 workers in Wales are on zero-hours contracts, with all the stress, insecurity and exploitation that that entails. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the trade union USDAW—the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers—on negotiating annualised contracts for workers with some big retail firms in Wales, giving both sides flexibility but also guaranteed income levels for workers? Will he support Labour’s calls for employees who in reality work regularly to have an automatic right to fixed-hour contracts and the security that such contracts bring?

[Alun Cairns]

I do support the action taken by the union. After all, the last thing we want is the abuse of employees on zero-hours contracts. However, such contracts offer some people flexibility in the workplace. They offer a great opportunity to encourage more people back into work who would not otherwise be able to work.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

5. What assessment he has made of trends in manufacturing in Wales since 2010.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

10. What discussions he has had with businesses in Wales on the effects of energy prices on their international competitiveness.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

We are a Government who listen to business and take action to support business. We have introduced a package of support to tackle the rising costs of energy. Wales Office Ministers have hosted two round-table discussions with energy-intensive industries in Wales to listen to their views on energy prices.

[Paul Flynn]

Yesterday, more electricity was generated by wind turbines than by nuclear power. Instead of putting money into expensive French nukes, why do we not help business by investing in unused Welsh tidal power, which is infinitely available, absolutely predictable, clean, green, British and belongs to us?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The UK needs a diverse range of energy sources. He mentioned tidal power, and there are some exciting projects around Wales at the moment. That is something I want to be closely involved with.

[Mark Tami]

Tata Steel is a much-valued local employer in Shotton, where it produces high-quality coated products. However, it is competing against foreign companies that have much lower energy costs. What talks has the Minister had with the Department of Energy and Climate Change to address that issue and create a more level playing field?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue. In recent Budgets, the Chancellor has set out important measures that will make a difference, such as capping the carbon floor price and dealing with the indirect costs of the EU emissions trading system and the renewables obligation.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

9. What recent estimate he has made of the contribution of the creative industries to the economy in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I recently visited Cwmni Da in Caernarfon, which is a great example of how the creative industries make a vital contribution to the Welsh economy and the cultural life of Wales.

[Kevin Brennan]

I welcome the Minister to his post. He is right that the creative industries are a growing and important part of the Welsh economy. Following the WOMEX conference last year, will he join me in campaigning for the BBC to bring the Radio 2 folk awards to Cardiff next year?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I will look positively at his suggestion and will happily meet him to discuss the matter further. He is right about the importance of the creative industries in Wales. He might be interested in the launch of the Cardiff internet exchange, which took place last week, and the launch of Cardiff local television.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

11. What assessment he has made of difficulties facing the agricultural sector in Wales.