Wales Bill
Alun Cairns Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Jones
Yes, I have heard that, certainly from those on the Plaid Cymru Benches. I would simply repeat that it is appropriate that the people of Wales have their voices heard on such an important matter.
The Bill also provides a mechanism for additional taxes to be devolved in future, with the approval of both Houses of Parliament and the Assembly. I am pleased that the Bill delivers new borrowing powers to the Welsh Government—again, as recommended by the commission. As for capital borrowing, we are providing the Welsh Government with the ability to borrow up to £500 million to invest in capital infrastructure in Wales. That is a generous limit, allowing the Welsh Government to get going on the much needed upgrade of the M4 around Newport. It also reflects the independent funding streams for which the Welsh Government will assume responsibility through the two devolved taxes and is a limit that can be increased in future if the Welsh Government become responsible for additional taxation, including income tax.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the project for a new motorway around Newport is essential? There has been far too much delay—it was cancelled by the Labour Administration back in 1997, despite the previous commitment. Today’s announcement is basically the green light for the project to go ahead.
Mr Jones
Indeed. I think that everyone in the south Wales business community recognises that the M4 is indeed a foot on the windpipe of the economy and we are anxious to see it upgraded. The competence that we shall be giving the Assembly Government—in fact, we have already extended it to them—will enable them to proceed as quickly as possible with that essential upgrade.
Owen Smith
We want fair and equitable tax rates across Britain. That is why we propose to amend the Bill so that, if a Tory Government in Westminster continue to increase the injustice and unfairness of our tax system by making further cuts to taxes on the wealthiest, Welsh values and Welsh beliefs about social justice can implement a decent and equitable rate of taxation.
Owen Smith
No, I am going to move on. If the hon. Gentleman holds his water, I shall come back to income tax later.
Landfill tax is relatively uncontroversial save for the link to borrowing, to which I shall come later. There is also the link to the landfill communities fund. We heard nothing from the Secretary of State about that, but it is paid to communities with landfill sites within their boundaries. Has the Secretary of State done any analysis about the value of that fund to Wales? How much is collected and how much has been spent in Wales? How many landfill sites are there in Wales in comparison with England?
The Secretary of State is proposing that the landfill tax community fund also be devolved to Wales and that Wales should become responsible for meeting the costs of implementing a revised Welsh landfill scheme. Given that elsewhere in the Bill, the Secretary of State proposes that HMRC duties should not be replicated in Wales, why does he think the implementation of the landfill communities fund should be devolved? Is that yet another example of his wishing to pass responsibilities to Wales without there being the requisite resources?
We absolutely support the extension of borrowing powers to Wales. They are vital to make up for the £1.7 billion cut in funding for Wales—an almost 40% cut in capital funds—that the Government have implemented since 2010.
It is crucial that the Welsh Government be given the ability to borrow in order to try to back-fill the enormous holes in their budget left by the Secretary of State and his colleagues.
There are two measures relating to borrowing in the Bill, both with limits of £500 million—one to cover volatility in tax receipts and the other to cover capital. I wish to talk about the latter. The Silk commission, whose recommendations the Secretary of State keeps telling us he has largely stuck to, said that £1.3 billion should be devolved to Wales for capital borrowing, but the Bill limits it to £500 million. The Secretary of State says, as he repeated earlier, that the rationale for that is to draw a connection between the amount of money devolved to Wales—the volume of taxes—and the volume of money that might be borrowed. The Secretary of State says, as does the Command Paper on the Bill, that that is just like the position of Scotland. In fact, the Command Paper goes further than he did in saying that the Bill is generous given that in Scotland over £5 billion of taxes are devolved and £2.2 billion of borrowing is allowed—£220 million each year—and that if a similar ratio were applied to Wales, then Wales would get not £500 million but £100 million.
The problem with that rationale is that it is not true. The Scotland Act does not draw a connection, as the Secretary of State suggests, between the amount of taxes devolved to Scotland and the amount of borrowing. The Command Paper associated with the Scotland Bill said:
“Scottish Ministers will be allowed to borrow up to 10% of the Scottish capital budget any year to fund capital expenditure”—
that is, £230 million of an overall stock of £2.2 billion. The Scotland Act drew a clear correlation between the size of the capital budget and the amount that could be borrowed. The Command Paper for the Wales Bill, which the Secretary of State said was just like that for the Scotland Bill, reads:
“Specifically, the Scottish Government’s capital borrowing limit is £2.2 billion while it is taking on responsibility for tax revenues that are currently worth around £5 billion. Hence the ratio between the two is slightly less than 1:2. Applying the same tax/borrowing ratio in Wales would have given the Welsh Government a limit of around £100 million.”
The crucial question is why the Government have moved the goalposts for Wales. Why cannot Wales have the same rationale for its volume of borrowing as the Scots? That would give us about £1 billion-worth of borrowing—between £1 billion and £1.5 billion—rather than the paltry £500 million on offer.
Moreover, given the volatility of all tax returns, how sensible is it for the Government to draw a direct line between the receipts that Wales receives and the amount it can borrow? What if those receipts declined? What if we were in another recession? We would therefore see, I presume, a reduction in the amount of borrowing that Wales could undertake, which would frankly be economic stupidity.
Owen Smith
No, I would label it as a progressive change and I will explain why we feel the need to introduce such a change.
The second way in which we would change the question relates to our concerns about the fact that this Tory Government and an increasingly right-wing nationalist party in Wales are proposing to cut the top rate of tax. [Laughter.] Nationalist party Members laugh, but the economic adviser to their leader says he wants to cut only the top rate of tax. I do not know what we are meant to conclude from that, but it sounds pretty right wing to me. An alliance between the nats and the Tories in Wales seeks to reduce taxes just for the wealthiest, but we feel that that would be entirely out of step with the progressive values of Wales. That is why we will give the Welsh Government the ability to set a progressive rate for Wales, to guard against further Tory tax cuts for the wealthiest and to ensure that those Welsh values of social justice and fairness in taxation can be preserved by the Welsh people in the event of the Tories wishing to increase the injustice and unfairness of the tax system in Wales and across Britain.
Alun Cairns
The shadow Welsh Secretary is giving out so many conflicting messages that I am finding it difficult to follow him. He says that he wants to extend the tax-varying powers by 15%, but he also says that he is against tax competition, and then he says that he only wants to put taxes up. We can have lots of debates about those inconsistencies, but there is one very serious point: every nation and region of the UK is seeking to attract investment. What sort of message is being sent when the shadow Chancellor—[Interruption.] What sort of message is being sent when the shadow Welsh Secretary, who presumably hopes to be a future Welsh Secretary, says that he wants to increase taxes on higher earners?
Owen Smith
It is not too hard to confuse the hon. Gentleman sometimes, either, but I thank him for the promotion. Our position is very clear: we are not in favour of tax competition; we are in favour of increased borrowing powers. The way in which the Government have framed the Bill to draw a connection between borrowing powers and the devolved amount of money paid in tax means that we favour increasing that amount so as to increase borrowing powers for Wales. However, the progressive rate is only to be put up in the event of a Tory Government choosing to deepen the unfairness by making further cuts to the top rate. We should worry about that because the Tory party has form on it. It has already cut taxes for the wealthiest, and we know that it will continue to do so.
Owen Smith
No, I will not.
Our proposal to allow the Welsh Government to set a progressive rate of taxation in Wales would allow power to be transferred to Welsh people to guard Wales against the damage to social justice done in Britain by a Tory Government who propose to cut taxes further. The motivation is similar to that for devolution in its first inception: a Tory Government in Wales exercising—in the miner’s strike, the poll tax and other measures—a political strategy that reveals how they turn their face against social justice in Britain and use Wales as a means to exercise such injustice. We have recently seen that in the war on Wales, and the way in which Grant Shapps, the chairman of the Tory party, and the Secretary of State—
Mr Hain
In that case, I think the hon. Gentleman will find that the same applies for Welsh citizens on the Welsh side of the border. All I am saying is: let us have an intelligent debate about this, rather than rantings based on a misrepresentation of the facts on the ground.
Let me get down to my speech. In focusing on clause 2 of the Bill, I wish to record my pride at taking the Government of Wales Act 2006 through Parliament as the then Secretary of State, not least because it provided for the full law-making powers the Welsh Government are now using to protect the people of Wales from this Government’s disastrous policies, including on tuition fees and on the creeping privatisation of the national health service, which is not being applied by the Welsh Government. The fact that the Conservative party, the only party in this House to vote against the 2006 Act, now seems to have accepted that devolution is a sign of progress—I welcome that—but on the question of dual candidature it has sadly regressed. In section 7 of the 2006 Act, I amended one clause from the Government of Wales Act 1998 in order to prevent candidates from simultaneously standing both in a constituency and for a region, whether as a list candidate or as an individual—this Bill will disgracefully reverse that reform.
Mr Hain
I am going to develop the point and then I will take an intervention. I want to remind colleagues of the reasons for the 2006 change. I did not act for politically partisan reasons, as was alleged by opponents of the change; I acted for democratic reasons. As one of the Ministers who also took the original 1998 Bill through the Commons permitting dual candidature, I never imagined for a moment then the abuses it would produce and the antipathy it would create among voters in Wales. Voters have never understood the widespread practice that has occurred since the Assembly was established in 1999, whereby candidates rejected by a particular constituency then secured back-door election as Assembly Members through the regional list and were even able to claim to represent the very constituency that had rejected them. Three of the four defeated candidates in Clwyd West in 2003 were subsequently elected to the Assembly through the regional list. Those very three people in Clwyd West—in the Secretary of State’s constituency—who were booted out by the electorate ended up as Assembly Members, competing against winning Assembly Member Alun Pugh.
Alun Cairns
The right hon. Gentleman talked about the Welsh electorate’s antipathy to the arrangements. Will he remind us what the Electoral Commission’s view was, following its long consultation on whether or not there was a need to change policy? What advice did it give him as the then Secretary of State for Wales?
Mr Hain
I am not sure about that, but what I can say is that we should look at the experience in Wales. If there is no such bar in other countries, then perhaps there was no such abuse there. There was widespread abuse in Wales, practised by 15 of the 20 list Assembly Members who used taxpayers’ money to open constituency offices in the very seats in which they were defeated. They then used those resources to try to win at the following election by cherry-picking local issues against the constituency AMs who had beaten them.
Mr Hain
I think I shall move on from that point, despite the great respect I have for my hon. Friend.
All the arguments and evidence I have cited demonstrate conclusively that the ban was not partisan but enhanced democratic standards among Welsh Assembly Members. Indeed, I reminded the House that six Labour Assembly Members, including three Ministers, could have been defeated in the 2007 Assembly elections by a swing of 3% against them—a very small swing. They would no longer enjoy the safety net of the regional list and two subsequently lost. The reform affected Labour candidates, just as it applied to candidates from other parties.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend refers to his question on mortality rates in Wales and the criticism from the Opposition. May I specifically state that this was a letter—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Hon. Gentlemen must not shout from a sedentary position. If the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) is not in order, I will tell him that he is not in order. I am sure that he will remain in order.
Alun Cairns
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will do everything I can to remain in order. I want to refer briefly to a point made by my hon. Friend, who was criticised by Opposition Members. It related to a letter from the chief medical officer in England to her counterpart in Wales on the powers of devolution in Wales, seeking an investigation. How could that ever be interpreted as an attack on Wales, when it was from one clinician to another?
Mr Harper
I agree. All I did at Wales questions last week was raise a perfectly reasonable point on behalf of my constituents. I quoted something that the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley, a valued Opposition Member, had said—it is in Hansard—and then the shadow Secretary of State suggests that I asked something I did not, and pretends that it is all a smear. That is simply not the case; I am a Member of Parliament raising concerns on behalf of my constituents. The previous devolution settlement was not well thought through and I want to ensure that this one is. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for taking a great deal of care with the Bill.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
I will support this Bill, although I have to say that it is very disappointing because it is, I am afraid, a bit of a shoddy compromise. Everyone realises that the Secretary of State for Wales is no enthusiast for devolution—indeed, some people might go further than that—and we know that the Liberal Democrats are quite enthusiastic, so we have a cobbling together of two different opinions, and the Bill suffers as a consequence. Its main proposals, which are modest and relate to the tax-raising capacity of the Welsh Assembly, are very limited. It also has strangely attached to it some new arrangements with regard to the electoral politics of the Welsh Assembly.
Although the first part of the Silk report has been quoted in support of the Bill, there is a great deal of difference between what Silk proposed and what the Government have put before us. For example, Silk states very clearly and boldly that
“for the financial accountability and empowerment of the National Assembly for Wales to be improved sufficiently, it should be responsible for raising a more substantial proportion of its spending.”
That is the core of its proposal. What the Government have given us on income tax-raising powers is a long way from the aspiration articulated by Silk. It is important to recognise, too, that a genuine and fundamental concern has been expressed by many people, including those in the Welsh Assembly, that there is no significant movement on Barnett. This proposal is a real runner only if there is a cast-iron commitment to, and a firm set of proposals on, modifying the Barnett formula as it applies to Wales. Under Barnett, as we all know, Wales is short-changed to the tune of £300 million per year, and that situation will not be addressed by this Bill.
Alun Cairns
I am interested in the sum of £300 million because it was presumably derived from the Holtham report, which is now some years old. Gerry Holtham also pointed out that as public spending contracts proportionately, the Barnett formula will protect Wales and the £300 million will decrease. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?
Wayne David
The £300 million figure, which is quoted widely and not just by me, is the most accurate figure that we have to go on at the moment. It is widely used by a number of academics as the main basis for the calculation.
Alun Cairns
My point is that the figure is several years old. There has been a change in the scale of public expenditure since then, and it is therefore nowhere near £300 million any more. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, given that Holtham said it in the report?
Wayne David
Not necessarily, because an added scenario that Gerry Holtham did not take into account is the austerity package that has been put together by this Government, which has led to huge cuts in the Welsh Assembly Government’s budget. To begin with, those cuts have not kept up with inflation, but all the indications are that they will be significantly deeper. That is an important backdrop to the whole matter that we are tackling.
Wayne David
I do not think I said that. The hon. Gentleman has put forward an interesting hypothesis and I am sure we will consider it at the appropriate time, but it is not relevant to the discussion we are having here.
As I was saying before I was interrupted, one of the most significant constitutional changes in the Bill is the proposition that we should change the method of election for the Welsh Assembly—that there should be a revision of what was agreed in the Government of Wales Act 2006. Like other Members, I have been travelling around Wales listening to what members of the public have to say. Reference has been made to a report from the Bevan Foundation. I remember that report well, as I was one of the Members who commissioned it. It came to the objective conclusion on the basis of a representative cross-section that, as the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) said, most people in Wales did not understand the system. They also thought it was intrinsically unfair that individuals who put their names forward for election but lose the election should suddenly appear in the Welsh Assembly—most people would assume that, as those people had lost, they would not be elected.
It is fundamentally impossible to explain the rationale behind that or to argue that it is fair. Whatever special pleading we make for small parties because of how difficult it is for them to get together a sufficient number of candidates, it is an unfair proposition.
Alun Cairns
Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House why he thinks that either his anecdotal evidence or his summary of the Bevan Foundation’s reasons for its recommendations are more independent or fair than the work of the Electoral Commission, which was challenged legally to come up with a full consultation, based on evidence, and ultimately to give the Secretary of State a recommendation? The commission did so, and found in favour of the measures in the Bill.
Wayne David
It is basic common sense. If someone loses an election, they do not get elected—it is as simple as that. I challenge the hon. Gentleman to explain to anybody in the street why that is not fair. I guarantee that he will fail. Go on—have a go.
Alun Cairns
I do not want to labour the point too much, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that in the 2003 election every Labour Assembly Member topped the regional list. That suggests that there is yet another inconsistency. Even the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, who I suspect was highly unlikely to lose, topped the list. The Opposition used the system in their interests, in spite of what has been stated now.
Wayne David
I am at a loss to understand the rationale behind that. We live in a democracy and have to accept the system that Parliament agrees. That does not mean that we think it is right, because it is not—it is fundamentally wrong. What is being suggested in the Bill amounts to gerrymandering.
I will give a couple of examples of how the regional list system as it stands at the moment is being abused in an immoral way. There is the case of Mohammed Asghar. He was elected to the Welsh Assembly as one of Plaid Cymru’s regional list Assembly Members, but having been elected as such, then decided to cross the House and join the Conservatives. Why did he join them? Was it a great matter of political principle? No. It is said that there was a disagreement about the employment of his daughter, so he decided to cross the House and use the system.
Another, more relevant and contemporary example is that of an Assembly Member called Lindsay Whittle. Lindsay Whittle was elected to the Welsh Assembly as a Plaid Cymru list Member for South Wales East. However, Mr Whittle is also a member of Caerphilly county borough council. He lives in Caerphilly and appears to spend a disproportionately large amount of time in Caerphilly. [Hon. Members: “He lives there.”] He does live there, but he works there as well, irrespective of the rest of his constituency. I put this to the House: can it be that Mr Lindsay Whittle is so interested in the council and in his own particular locality because he wants to stand in the Caerphilly constituency at the next Welsh Assembly elections in 2016? I think that is quite likely. The point I am making is that democracy in this country is based on representation. If someone does not represent people properly, but instead represents their constituents selectively and picks out who they are going to focus on, it is undemocratic and unfair. It is reprehensible for the individual to behave in that way, but it is also reprehensible that they are able to do that under the political system.
If Mr Whittle does indeed stand for re-election in 2016, his calculation will be, “Yes, I’ll have a go at Caerphilly but I don’t need to worry if I lose because I still have the old regional list system to fall back on.” That is a practical example of this unfairness. I challenge any Member to explain to the people of south-east Wales how that can be justified and how it is an example of democracy as we understand it—it clearly is not.
Welsh Affairs
Alun Cairns Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Albert Owen
No request was made to me. If it had been, I would have lobbied for such a reduction. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is talking about. However, I have found—and I am sure that he will agree with me about this—that the hike in VAT to 20% has had a negative effect on spending in many areas. Local businesses tell me that. Hon. Members should not listen to what I am saying; listen to them. There is a good campaign across the United Kingdom for a cut in VAT on tourism.
One leading business person told me that whenever he takes his partner, son-in-law and daughter out for a drink, he has to take the Chancellor of the Exchequer with him, because 20% of the bill goes to the Treasury. That cannot be right. Other European Union member states are enjoying a VAT reduction, and have benefited from hundreds of thousands of extra jobs and from investment in tourism.
Albert Owen
I will, but this really will be the last intervention, because, as I have said, I am conscious of the time.
Alun Cairns
Is the hon. Gentleman telling us that cutting the VAT paid by tourist businesses to 5% is Labour party policy?
Albert Owen
I am not going to take a lecture from someone who voted for it to be raised to 20%. [Interruption.] Conservative Members can flap their hands as much as they want—
David T. C. Davies
I do not think that I was using jargon; I was spelling it out in fairly simple English. But okay, I will give the hon. Gentleman a list of things. First, I am told that it is difficult for head teachers to go in and assess teachers. They are allowed to do it only a couple of times a year, and they cannot simply walk into a classroom. I have been told that by two senior educationists in Wales, working in totally separate schools, over the past few weeks. Either they are wrong or the hon. Gentleman is wrong.
I have also been told that schools get a great deal of notice before an inspection takes place, and I think that is wrong. Inspectors ought to be able to go in without any notice whatsoever and find out what is going wrong. I know for a fact that when I was in the Welsh Assembly the unions and everyone else seemed to be totally against testing, but testing is a good thing. If my children are failing in tests, I want to know about it and to get involved. There is also a problem with sickness, whereby too many teachers are taking too many sick days in schools in Wales and that is not being properly investigated afterwards by the personnel departments. It is also far too difficult to get rid of bad teachers who are not up to the job. That situation can occur in any walk of life, but in most others someone who is not up to a job will be got rid of by someone higher up. That does not seem to happen in teaching. I do not think all that is jargon; those are fairly simple matters.
May I make one last point on this, which is the most important one of all? In England, there is a recognition that parents have a right to have some say over their children’s education, and they can exercise that most drastically by taking their children out of the state system and putting them into some kind of an academy. As a parent, I welcome that, because it is my taxpayer’s money that is being spent and I ought to have a say. If the school is not up to the job, I ought to have the right to take my child out and put them somewhere else. I do not have that right in Wales, and that is taking away an incentive for teachers to improve.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech, which is interesting in terms of the direction that the questions are coming from. Does he share my concern that the hands of the Liberal Democrats, and even those of Plaid Cymru, are not necessarily clean in this area, because they will have been part of the coalition during some of the formative years, when some of the education policies were put in place?
David T. C. Davies
My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely right. The Labour party has generally been the lead party in the Assembly since it was set up, but at other times Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats have been involved.
Chris Evans
Thank you very much.
Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who is not in his place, I bemoan the lack of the St David’s day debate, which has been held since 1944. When Aneurin Bevan spoke in this place in 1944, he said that there were no Welsh problems, only problems. The wonderful thing about the Welsh day debate that we are missing is that it allows us to bring up issues that usually go unnoticed in this House. Today, I will bring up the issue of truancy in schools.
Truancy is not simply a matter for schools; increasingly, it affects the whole of society. It is a complex issue. It is not simply about pupils skipping school to go to the park with their friends, but is often a sign of deeper problems at home and, in some cases, of abuse. If a pupil truants from school often enough, they will be excluded. They will thereby miss out not only on a worthwhile education, but on the support network that schools provide. That can result in people falling in with the wrong crowd and getting into trouble with the police, making them less desirable to potential employers.
When I visit schools in my constituency, I am always impressed by the level of pastoral care that students receive. Head teachers have told me that for some students, that care is arguably more important than traditional classes. For many students, the support that they receive in school is invaluable. That is why exclusions and truancy are serious issues.
Over the past few years, the Welsh Government have done an incredible amount of work to prevent schoolchildren from being permanently excluded. Just 102 pupils were permanently removed from Welsh schools last year, which is almost 100 fewer than in 2009-10, when there were 200 exclusions. That is a step in the right direction. However, I will focus today on what is known as “soft exclusion”.
The number of temporary exclusions is still too high. There were 17,508 temporary exclusions in 2011-12 in Wales alone. More research and data are needed to explain why that is occurring. In October 2009, my predecessor, Lord Touhig, asked a parliamentary question about what research the previous Government had done on the effects of exclusion on pupils. He was told that no research had been commissioned. Sadly, that is still the case. What do young people do when they are excluded temporarily? Do they miss out on work? In reality, we just do not know.
In preparation for this debate, I read a report by the charity, Barnardo’s, which did some research on the use of unlawful exclusions. That is when schools ask parents to keep their children away from school without providing a formal notification of exclusion. Local authorities know nothing about such exclusions. There is obviously not a huge amount of data in this area, which is unfortunate, but the Barnardo’s study is based on anecdotal evidence.
I shall quote from the report. One parent said:
“From year 7 the head of year would phone me to say he’d been excluded, but no time scale would be mentioned. A letter would arrive two days later telling me how many days it was. There was no work set or given.”
The report heard evidence from parents of a lack of dialogue between schools and families, which leaves the pupils falling behind. One parent said:
“The head of year would ring me and say they were thinking of excluding him. Sometimes there would be a letter. It takes two days or more to arrive and it would say work would be set two days after that, but by then the exclusion time would have passed.”
The police in Blackwood say that the problems in the market area are caused mainly by young people who have been excluded, whether temporarily or permanently. That demonstrates the drain on police resources and the wider effect that this issue has on society. I was even alarmed to find, shockingly and tragically, that pupils with special needs accounted for a little over 60% of all exclusions in Wales in 2012-13, and those with school action and school action plus special educational needs had the highest rate of permanent exclusions at 0.6% per 1,000 pupils. A report by the charity Ambitious about Autism found that four in 10 children with autism had been informally excluded temporarily.
Alun Cairns
The hon. Gentleman raises extremely important points. Does he share my concern that some local authorities in Wales have a policy not to statement children? The statementing of children can be extremely important in some cases, to provide the right level of support that will ultimately prevent exclusion in special needs cases.
Chris Evans
I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and that is the point I was trying to make. There is a lack of research and data, and if more children were statemented and we knew what was going on, we would be able to address the issue.
If such things are happening on a large scale, the Government need to look into it and investigate further. Why is it happening? Is it because schools are not equipped to deal with autistic young people? The Barnardo’s report I mentioned earlier contained a statement from a parent with an autistic child:
“There are teachers who manage him fine, and those who don’t sympathise with his situation. Sending him home for 3 days is not the best option and there’s no discussion of strategies for managing his behaviour. Reasons vary, but generally he’s sent home once every 3 weeks.”
In my constituency we are extremely fortunate to have an excellent autism unit at Risca community comprehensive, and the support students receive is fantastic. The same is also true of Coleg Gwent at Crosskeys, where pupils go on to become independent live-in students. Perhaps there are areas across the country not so fortunate, but excluding children from schools on the basis that staff cannot cater to their needs is to me completely unacceptable. What concerns me is that no data on these informal exclusions are held centrally. I would like some form of Government investigation into how prevalent the issue is in schools, not only in Wales, but across the UK.
How vast is the problem? It seems to me that we simply do not know, although we do know that more than 10% of 16 to 18-year-olds are not in employment, education or training, compared with 23% of 19 to 24-year-olds. To me, those figures are unacceptable. It is all very well trying to score political points, as some of us have tried to do today, but we must understand why the figures are so high.
Charities and organisations understand this problem much better than I do. Catch22 is a social business that does an excellent job of getting young people into the habit of attending school and following a schedule. Speak to Catch22 and it will say that when young people play truant and eventually drop out of the mainstream education system, it is important that their aspirations are rebuilt and that character and resilience are developed. Those are interesting ideas, and the Government need to work closely with those fantastic organisations to find a long-term solution to the problem.
With so many young people leaving school with no future plans, we must think about how we can create opportunities for people who may have fallen out of mainstream education. No Member of this House wants young people to be excluded from school and never to reintegrate into society, and there are apprenticeship schemes that focus not on academic achievement but on learning a genuine worthwhile skill that will help a participant stay in work for years.
In my constituency, I speak all the time to businesses with excellent apprenticeship schemes. Last week I met Hafod Quarry in Abercarn, which told me about a five-year scheme that essentially guarantees employment in the industry for many years. Pensord Press in Pontllanfraith and Joyner PA in Risca offer similar apprenticeships that develop skills and lead to full-time work. There are, however, businesses that have told me that they cannot recruit young people locally because they do not have the so-called “soft skills” of communication, turning up on time and completing tasks. Those who played truant and left the education system at an early age are most likely to struggle with those essential skills. If someone without those skills is put in front of an interviewer, they simply will not get the job. That is why it is so important we get the issue right now.
Our education system needs to set up Welsh youngsters for the future, and I do not think unlawful exclusions are part of that. I would like something that my predecessor asked the previous Labour Government for almost five years ago—concrete data and a definitive study into levels of exclusion in schools and the reasons for truancy. Without that we are doing our young people a disservice. In light of the evidence available, expulsion should be the last resort while all avenues are investigated to address unacceptable behaviour in our schools.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I rise to speak as a passionate Welshman who enjoys Welsh history, our proud culture and the contribution that many Welshmen have made to the history of Wales, the UK and beyond. I will try to be positive, and I will ask my questions in a positive spirit.
Whatever people’s opinions of devolution in 1997 after the referendum, there was a genuine hope across all political parties that devolution would work and make a difference. It provided a great chance to make a difference and develop a Government who could respond to changing needs, react to problems as they emerged, and take decisions much closer to the electorate.
My main subject today will be the reputation of Wales, my worry that its governance is damaging that reputation and the consequences of such damage. It is easy to say, after one four-year term of governance, that reforms were established but there has not been enough opportunity to see the outcomes and benefits. After a second term, that argument gets somewhat weaker and we would expect to see some benefits. But after nearly 15 years, we should really be seeing some positive outcome from devolution, such as the “devolution dividend” as it was called at one time.
Sadly, in so many areas, if not almost all areas—I am trying to think of one where I am wrong—the relative position of Wales has fallen back, compared with the rest of the United Kingdom. I do not want to be party political in making that point, but I seek an acceptance that Wales is now the poorest part of the UK. That was not the case before 1997. As a result, the challenge of attracting investment and creating entrepreneurship is so much greater. It is so much more difficult to attract investment to the poorest part of the UK, because the gross domestic product and the value of the spend is not as high. The reputation of Wales is therefore key.
Roger Williams
I am following my hon. Friend’s argument closely. Does he agree that part of the problem is that Wales has a legacy of ill health from heavy industry and a legacy of economic inactivity because of the loss of those industries? That has never been reflected in the Barnett formula so those needs are still unmet in Wales.
Alun Cairns
I accept part of that, but I would also look to areas that have a similar legacy but are not the poorest parts of the United Kingdom. Those are the very same points that, it was argued, would be corrected by Adminstrations that would take decisions much closer to the people. I speak as a pro-devolutionist—I am not against the institution, I am against the governance, the way in which the institution has worked and how policy has been set.
David T. C. Davies
Does my hon. Friend agree that parts of the United Kingdom, such as Northern Ireland, are poorer than Wales, but achieve better outcomes in areas such as education? It must be partly, if not wholly, the responsibility of the Government of the Welsh Assembly that things are so bad there.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend is right, because a culture developed in which everything was judged by the amount of money that was put into it, rather than the outcomes that were derived from the investment.
When we talk about reputation, we need to accept that the way in which Wales is currently reported is not positive. I am very saddened by that, but it is largely because the column inches in the press tend to focus on health and education. They are essential to attracting inward investment, because middle and senior management would have to use the national health service and send their children to the schools. That must be added to the way in which Wales is perceived and the challenge that we have in attracting investment thereafter.
Let us focus on education, because without doubt a nation’s future is built on the quality of its education. In the past few years alone, there has been a determination to develop different qualifications, sometimes for the sake of being different, as my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) mentioned earlier. When there was a drive to introduce greater rigour in GCSE outcomes, in Wales we saw political intervention. In England, politics was kept out of it completely, and the policy direction was set for greater rigour and stronger assessments of standards. In Wales, there was a determination to change that.
What worries me most, as the father of a 10-year-old, is that qualifications in Wales could be seen to be secondary to their counterparts in England. I really hope that, for those who gained GCSE qualifications last year, employers will accept Welsh qualifications as being of the same standard as those in England. However, there was an upgrade in more than 1,000 cases, and that may make employers and higher education institutions question them. For example, the Welsh baccalaureate is not accepted by some universities, and that is sad. That reputational damage is now being perpetuated by the outcomes of what the programme for international student assessment judged to be tragically lower standards. As we seek to attract investment to turn the economy around, the quality of public services is essential.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
I hope the hon. Gentleman does not feel that I am just trying to look on the positive side, but he must be aware that Cardiff university is a Russell Group university and that it accepts students from the Welsh education system. It also has two Nobel laureate prize winners.
Alun Cairns
Cardiff university is a fantastic university. The funding structure in Wales is starving the university of funding, as compared to its counterparts in England. The question we need to be asking ourselves is this: how can Cardiff university maintain its standards and status when, because of the different funding structure, there is more funding going into higher education in Wales? That is another sign of the reputational damage being caused by the decisions that are being taken.
Owen Smith
The hon. Gentleman says that he wants to show some respect for devolution, but could he be a little more impartial with the facts he employs? Will he tell us, for example, whether he accepts that the Welsh Government should be congratulated on a fall of just 250 in the number of students applying to university in Wales, when the fall in England has been 25,000—a hundredfold difference?
Alun Cairns
That is the sort of response that does not get us anywhere. I am looking for an intelligent debate to accept the reality of the situation. Unless we accept the reality, we cannot take the intelligent decisions needed to make changes.
In the time that remains, I want to mention health. I had hoped that yesterday was a turning point. The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) made an extremely powerful contribution to the debate yesterday. Two weeks earlier, we had learned of data she had brought to the attention of Professor Sir Bruce Keogh. He wrote to his counterpart in Wales, seeking to probe the data that had been shared with him. The response came from a politician, rather than a clinician, who was furious and said that this was an attempt by the Conservative party to
“drag Welsh NHS through the mud”.
The reality, however, is that Sir Bruce Keogh stated in the e-mail that he did not know enough about it, but thought there was a potential smokescreen. There needs to be an intelligent debate, otherwise its reputation will be damaged further.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on securing this debate today. It has been an extraordinarily wide-ranging debate, as is traditionally the case with St David’s day debates. Many Members rightly highlighted the importance of having time in this House to debate the issues of Wales. I think that we can all agree that in the past three years, insufficient time has been spent on debating Welsh matters. Ignorance of the realities in Wales has perhaps grown in this House as a result. I hope that we have done something today to redress that imbalance and to shed some light on the issues, as I hope to do in my short remarks.
My hon. Friend made a particularly enlightening and topical opening to today’s debate. He talked about the need to reflect the fact that people in Wales have shared identities in that they are both Welsh citizens and British citizens. Indeed, they can play rugby for Wales and for the British Lions—they can captain either team and still feel themselves to be British and Welsh. That is something that I feel very strongly about and that I hope everyone in this House supports. My hon. Friend also said that we need to capitalise on the great economic strengths of our country, and especially on the energy and tourism potential of Wales. I entirely endorse all that he said in that regard.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) reminded us of the history of the St David’s day debate. He even told us that this was the day of St Colette, the patron saint of pregnant women. At this point, I cannot help but congratulate Kate Groucutt, who is pregnant and leaving my office. She has been the special adviser to the Welsh Affairs team over the past few years.
More importantly, but slightly surreally, my right hon. Friend talked about the problems in his constituency of head shops, which sell legal highs. The problem is massive and growing in communities such as his and mine, and we must get to grips with it notwithstanding the difficulties of legislating in this complicated area.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) talked about the economy of Wales, and highlighted two issues in her constituency that have wider implications and ramifications across the UK. The first was the loss of steel jobs at the Orb works, due to the inordinately high energy prices that companies in Britain are paying compared with their European competitors. I am sure that we all understand that we need to get to grips with that matter not just for individual consumers of energy in this country but for vital foundational industries.
The second was the problem of offshore jobs. My hon. Friend highlighted the irony of a Government who claim to be seeking to reshore jobs overseeing the offshoring of Government jobs in the Ministry of Justice shared services centre in Newport. You could not make it up, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it is what is happening.
My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) raised the important issue of truancy and called for improvements in the way in which our schools deal with challenging children in Britain, and I entirely agree with him. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) also talked about the economy and threw his weight behind the proposal for a motor sport track and arena in Blaenau Gwent, and I support him on that, as I know the Secretary of State does. My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) talked about women in Wales and the need for others to promote the talents of women within Wales. She highlighted the fact that the Labour party has done that in the National Assembly, where women make up almost 45% of all groups, and here in Westminster, where the Labour party stands alone in having a significant proportion of female members—32% of the current parliamentary Labour party. We need more, but it is a good start and better than what we are seeing from the Government.
The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) talked about local government and the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) talked about devolution and suggested that I should be sophisticated and enlightening when addressing it myself, and I shall seek to do so at an appropriate moment.
Government Members told us that they wanted to be respectful and positive—I think those were the words—about Wales and then failed to offer a single respectful and positive word; that was certainly the case for the Conservative Members. There were a number of positive remarks made by Liberal Democrat Members, such as the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who congratulated the Welsh Government on their investment in flood defences in Wales; £4 million has been invested, in distinct contradiction to the direction of travel in Westminster where we have seen £97 million cut from flood defences, as confirmed last week by the Office for National Statistics. Perhaps that is why we did not see the same degree of problems in Wales as we did elsewhere.
The hon. Members for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) were particularly jaundiced in their view of Wales and highlighted the volume of column inches about what they saw as poor public service performance. They bemoaned the fact that Wales was getting such bad press, but they know full well why Wales is getting a bad press and it is not because of the performance of Welsh public services and certainly not a fair representation—
Owen Smith
I am not going to give way—[Interruption.] No, I will not give way, because I—[Interruption.] Okay, I will give way once.
Alun Cairns
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but mortality rates, cancer waiting times and A and E access are just three examples; diagnostics in the health service are another. Those are fundamental issues that are dominating the UK newspapers because of poor performance in Wales. Is that not a sad situation?
Owen Smith
If the hon. Gentlemen can point to a hospital in Wales in which there are higher levels of unexpected mortality than he thinks there ought to be, I will listen seriously to him. However, he has not offered that—
Owen Smith
He says the Princess of Wales, where risk adjusted mortality indices improved by more than 20% over the past three years. We have seen significant improvements in mortality indices in Wales and he will know that people cannot do what he and his colleagues have done—and worse, what the Prime Minister has done on 29 occasions in this House—and take out of context extraordinarily complex mortality statistics and use them as a means to smear the Welsh NHS. Only this week, I was confronted with the reality of that smear campaign when I was contacted by members of the Welsh NHS work force to ask me—
Owen Smith
No, it was not a union. Somebody working in the NHS contacted me on their own behalf to ask what they could do to stop the Tories’ smear campaign dragging the reputation of the Welsh NHS through the mud. Members do not need to take my word for it; they could take the words of doctors in Wales. The British Medical Association in Wales said very clearly that this was “a wicked”—[Interruption.] The Under-Secretary says from a sedentary position that this is about the trade unions, implying that it is somehow connected to the Labour party. He knows that that is not the case; he knows—[Interruption.]
Elections (National Assembly for Wales)
Alun Cairns Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Paul Murphy
It seriously damages it, and I will come on to that issue in a second.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the grandstanding from Opposition Members, and even some of the so-called logical arguments that he presents, are undermined by a former Secretary of State, and a former Labour Government, who went against guidance from the Electoral Commission when they changed the electoral system?
Paul Murphy
No, because I think those issues were different at the time. The other option that is not in the Green Paper is the question of whether top-up Members of the National Assembly should be elected on an all-Wales basis, as opposed to a regional basis. Personally, I think that would be more logical, and that there should be a list system for Members elected by proportional representation. My point, however, is that these debatable options should have been put to the people of Wales but were not, and that is why the Green Paper is flawed.
My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) touched on the assurances that were given to the First Minister of Wales concerning electoral arrangements for the National Assembly. I understand that the Secretary of State said last week that no such assurances were given, but I want to provide the Chamber with two quotations from what was said when the National Assembly debated the issue some weeks ago. The first comes from the former Presiding Officer of the National Assembly, Lord Elis-Thomas:
“Would it surprise the First Minister to know that, when I was Presiding Officer…I received assurances from the Prime Minister…and the…Secretary of State that there would be no change in our boundaries to coincide with Westminster boundaries?”
The First Minister, Carwyn Jones, answered:
“I received an assurance on two occasions from the Prime Minister that there would be no change without the consent of the Assembly, and I am on record as saying that. I took that assurance in good faith and I expect it to be adhered to. However, the reality is that Scotland will continue to have different boundaries for Scottish Parliament and UK Parliament constituencies. If it works in Scotland, what evidence is there that it could not work in Wales? None is offered.”
The point is that there is obviously a huge difference of opinion between the First Minister and the former Presiding Officer on one hand, and the Secretary of State on the other. Whom are we to believe in this instance? The First Minister has made it absolutely clear to me and to others that such an assurance was given.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alun Cairns Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman repeatedly raises the issue of public sector jobs in Wales, and he will know that it is generally agreed that Wales is over-dependent on the public sector and under-dependent on the private sector. The creation of private sector jobs is largely the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government, of which his party is in control.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The potential risk to jobs related to Peacocks is a worry to all in south Wales and well beyond, across the United Kingdom. What action can the Minister take with his colleagues here in Westminster and in co-ordination with the Welsh Government? Will he pledge to do everything possible to help them find a funder to secure those jobs over the longer term?
Mr Jones
Yes, the issue of Peacocks is of great concern not just to Wales, but to the whole of the United Kingdom. Some 10,000 people are employed by Peacocks. Already my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been in communication with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to discuss the issue. I understand that the Welsh Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science has also been in communication with the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk).
Commission on Devolution in Wales
Alun Cairns Excerpts(14 years, 3 months ago)
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Mrs Gillan
We proposed to hold this debate before the first meeting of the commission to enable Paul Silk and the other commissioners to hear Members’ views. The right hon. Gentleman’s point is well made, and I know that when the commissioners read Hansard they will take it on board. I do not want to tie the commissioners’ hands; they must decide how they will work.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) makes a principled point, the logic of which should have been extended to the previous referendums on devolution. Why did that not happen?
Mrs Gillan
If I recall correctly, the Richard commission reported before the Government of Wales Act 2006 was enacted. Reaction to the commission—a pick-and-mix effect—was interesting. The 2006 Act contained some items that had not been telegraphed quite so clearly, and the House certainly did not have the opportunity to debate it as fully as I am trying to ensure that we debate things today and in future. My hon. Friend is quite right about that.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
Let me begin, Mr Deputy Speaker, by welcoming the fact that we have a Welshman in the Chair for this debate—a Swansea boy who is, I am sure, delighted that Swansea City is in the premiership playing some very good football this season.
Just for the record, I cannot let the Secretary of State continue to repeat the fiction that when she arrived at the Wales Office in Gwydyr house in early May, the cupboard was bare and nothing had been done about the referendum. She knows that that is not the case. She will also know that a couple of days before she went up the stairs at Gwydyr house to occupy the office, I had sought confirmation that we could have delivered the referendum by the autumn, if we really had to; it would have been a tight squeeze, to repeat the phrase used. Let us hear no more nonsense from her about that, or about the housing legislative competence order. As my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) reminded her, the housing LCO was ready for Royal Assent, and she sabotaged it; the Conservative party refused to carry it through. She knows that that is true, so I am surprised that she is continuing to say these things.
Mr Hain
I am happy to take an intervention a little later.
I am intrigued by accountability; that is why I picked up the Secretary of State on that issue in The Western Mail. I am glad that she reads The Western Mail, and my comments in it, assiduously. It is not for the Secretary of State for Wales to decide in which way the Welsh Government or the Welsh Assembly should be accountable to the people of Wales. The Welsh Assembly is elected by the people of Wales; she is not elected by anybody in Wales. That is the true line of accountability that operates.
Alun Cairns
The right hon. Gentleman underlines the fact that the Welsh budget doubled in that period, but will he recognise that Holtham also reported that in a period of spending constraint and public spending reduction, the Barnett formula protects the Welsh budget?
Mr Hain
I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point to the extent that Holtham did recognise that when there is a period of spending restraint, or even cuts, underfunding and funding convergence do not happen to the same degree. However, I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman is arguing. Is he saying that spending cuts and restraint have a good impact on Wales?
Alun Cairns
I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman has a brass neck or simply selective hearing or a selective memory. Does he not recall that Wales, in the 1980s, was not the poorest part of the UK, and that, in spite of Labour Governments in Cardiff Bay and a Labour Government in Westminster, Wales is now the poorest part of the UK?
Mr Hain
I am astonished that a Member of Parliament for a Welsh seat is trying to defend the Government’s impact on Wales in the 1980s. As a result of Tory policies, there was mass unemployment and people were smuggled on to incapacity benefit to disguise the unemployment figures and left there—a whole generation of young people—never to work again. I am astonished that he is trying to defend that.
Alun Cairns
The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point about consensus and it is a strong message that needs to go to the Silk commission, but is not the original root of all these inconsistencies that we now face the lack of consensus in 1997, when Labour let the genie out of the bottle and we started on the devolution road? I am mixing my metaphors, but I hope that I have made the point.
Paul Murphy
The hon. Gentleman knows that historically I was opposed to devolution—I changed my mind as the years went by—but we had to accept what the people of Wales decided. In 1997, they decided on devolution, albeit by a small majority—we must remember that the Conservative party did not get a majority of Members of Parliament, but we still have a Conservative-led Government—and in the referendum held earlier this year the overwhelming view of people in Wales was that there should be extra powers. It was the people who decided what they wanted in the end, and I agreed with them this time.
I repeat that we do not want to hear about consensus, given that that was abandoned by this Government when they introduced the Bill to reduce the number of our Members of Parliament. For the first time since 1832 we will have fewer than 40 Members of Parliament representing Wales in this House. I am not arguing about the nature of equal constituencies—that is for another debate—but I am saying that the reduction from 40 to 30 in the number of Welsh MPs reduces the influence of Wales within the United Kingdom. I will address that in a few moments’ time.
Part I of the commission’s remit is to deal with money: the financial responsibilities and the remit of the Welsh Assembly. We are told that this is all about accountability, but the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) just referred to the devolution settlement of 1997. Such a settlement also took place in Scotland and later in Northern Ireland, where I played a part. In all those settlements that issue of financial accountability was raised, and it was argued by some, “If a parish or community council can raise revenue, why cannot a Government in Edinburgh, Belfast or Cardiff do so?”
When I chaired the talks in Northern Ireland on whether there should be income tax powers in Northern Ireland, the meeting lasted less than an hour. People in Scotland decided that they would have the possibility of tax-varying powers, but those have never been used. We in Wales rejected this from the beginning, and there was a reason for that: the resource base of Wales is much lower than that of Scotland—the resource base of Northern Ireland is even lower than that of Wales—and therefore the amount of money that could be raised by income tax in Wales or Northern Ireland, and, to a certain extent, in Scotland, is infinitesimally smaller than the amount that could be raised in England. This proposal was therefore abandoned.
The idea of how we finance our devolved Administrations, therefore, came down to the idea of the block grant. That system is not unique. The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) referred to asymmetrical devolution, and that is what occurs in Spain, except that there they have devolution everywhere. They get their money through a system of distribution of block grants and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said, they are able to ensure that there is proper distribution of money so that poorer areas are helped by richer areas such as Catalonia.
Guto Bebb
It could be argued that the legislative competence order procedures and the Government of Wales Act 2006 were very successful in the context of what they were supposed to do, which was to keep the Labour party united. In terms of providing for good governance in Wales, however, they were an absolute disaster, and recognised as such by the people of Wales. The 2006 Act was also a belated party political attempt to create a situation that was favourable to Welsh Labour. It could be argued that my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) lost his Assembly seat as a result of the changes to the way in which Welsh Assembly Members were elected, as implemented by the Act. Those changes were made for internal Labour party purposes, not as a result of any demand by the people of Wales. Not a single individual in my hon. Friend’s constituency argued that he should lose his seat because of changes that had been implemented to keep the Labour party happy.
Alun Cairns
Does my hon. Friend also recall that those changes to the electoral system were introduced against the advice of the Electoral Commission?
Hywel Williams
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. As I said, sometimes complexity is good and necessary. I do not want to appear too Panglossian about this, but it seems to me that we have a system that works fairly well. However, as we say in Welsh, nid da ble gellir gwell—it is not good if it can get better. Certainly that is our ambition.
The principle of the system for Wales inevitably still leads to a lack of clarity and some confusion for the public. I am glad to see that the commission will be looking at systems of devolution in other parts of the world. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) referred to the Scottish model as one under which everything is devolved other than that which is not, as compared with the situation in Wales, where nothing is devolved other than that which is. There is a great deal to commend that particular system.
I also encourage the commission to look beyond the boundaries of the UK. In an intervention on the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), I pointed out that the system in the Basque country, in terms of money, is slightly different to that in the rest of Spain, which generally operates on a block grant principle, whereas the Basques have historically, over many centuries, raised their own taxes and then sent a certain amount of money down to Madrid. That is easier for them given that the gross domestic product in the Basque country is currently 140% of the average across the country, so they are in the rather lucky position of having the money to do that. It is interesting that the Basque country has a steel industry and a history of heavy industry, but seems to have managed to go beyond that with the Mondragon co-operatives and various other methods that it has adopted. The area is similar to Wales in population and culture, with a smallish linguistic minority, but there we are—it seems to be succeeding where Wales is not.
I would say this, but I think that the will of the people of Wales was made clear in the referendum. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Aberconwy about the turnout, but unless we have compulsory voting there will be variations in turnout and I do not think that the lowish turnout for the Assembly elections indicates disenchantment with that body—rather, it is growing in popularity and interest. He made a good point about defending the institution. It may be a body that we are not always particularly keen on, but at least it is ours, and people must defend it. I hope that the commission’s timetable allows for legislative change before the next election, but I am grateful to the Secretary of State for setting out the options, which will repay close study.
I am conscious of the fact that time is passing and that other hon. Members wish to speak, but I will make a couple of further points. There is plenty that could be done, and I recommend that the commission look at two excellent private Member’s Bills, which happen to be mine: the Bilingual Juries (Wales) Bill, which I introduced in 2007 and which failed abjectly to proceed; and the Jobcentre Plus (Wales) Bill that I introduced earlier this year and which the hon. Gentleman opposed very successfully indeed, along with many of his friends across the border.
Those are two practical changes that could profitably be looked at by the commission, and I am sure that there are more. In my party at least, we have an appetite for change. We have done the work, and we have the imagination to think about what sort of changes might be introduced, so I commend both those measures.
If hon. Members want an example of why the devolution of certain measures is necessary, I refer them to the recent shenanigans of S4C and my early-day motion 2316. The scrutiny of the Public Bodies Bill by the majority of Members from Wales was entirely deficient as far as S4C was concerned. There were five Members from Wales on the Committee that considered the Bill. Two were unable to speak because of the role that they played, but the other three Members worked very hard indeed, and I pay tribute to the hon. Members for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) and for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). We were able to debate the issue at length, and I was glad that we could do so. Subsequently, I secured a Westminster Hall debate on the subject, which was well attended.
When the Public Bodies Bill was on Report, however, we did not, for reasons that I will not go into—I shall not begin to point fingers—reach the amendment on S4C, so the majority of Members from Wales did not have an opportunity to express their opinion. That is one reason why the commission should look at an area that is difficult and complicated to devolve.
Alun Cairns
In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman is commenting on S4C, will he congratulate the Secretaries of State for Wales and for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on the fantastic deal that S4C has secured with funding from the BBC?
Hywel Williams
The deal that was eventually reached has pleased no one and has pleased everyone to some extent because S4C has taken a hard hit on money. However, I pay tribute to the Secretary of State, and to Members from all parties, including Lords Wyn Roberts, Dafydd Wigley, Dafydd Elystan-Morgan and John Morris, who pressed the case, along with the BBC Trust member for Wales, Elan Closs Stephens, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, my hon. Friends and, perhaps, me. Everyone is included—success has many parents—so let us leave it at that. All I want to say is that broadcasting should be subject to fair scrutiny.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this extremely important debate for Wales, for the constitution, and for the stability of devolution, both in Wales and across the United Kingdom.
I congratulate the Secretary of State on securing the debate in Government time and on the way in which she introduced it. This is a genuine debate about the need for greater accountability and stability in the devolution settlement. It will set the scene for the Silk commission. Of course the commission is independent and I congratulate each and every one of its members. They need the freedom to investigate the issues, but this is an important debate about Wales, in Government time, in the Chamber.
In the past the Conservative party and the Conservative Secretary of State have been accused by Opposition parties of being devo-sceptics, but the reality is very different. Few predicted that it would be a Conservative Secretary of State who delivered a referendum on further powers for the Assembly. Even fewer would have predicted that a Conservative Secretary of State would move to advance the settlement to secure its stability over the longer term.
Stability is the key point. Over the past 13 years, Wales has experienced significant constitutional change in a piecemeal approach that has served the interests of the Labour party. There is no doubt about the mess created by the Government of Wales Act 1998. We started off with the National Assembly for Wales. Then we had a change in the voting system, which was opposed by the Electoral Commission. Then we had the Richard commission, which was generally ignored, and the legislative competence order model taken from that was unworkable. The Holtham commission’s report has not been debated even in the National Assembly for Wales. That was followed by a second referendum. All that was done to serve the partisan interests of the Labour party and to try and overcome the differences between the Labour Members in the Welsh Assembly and those on the Opposition Benches in this Chamber.
The churlish way in which the shadow Secretary of State responded to the opening comments from the Secretary of State for Wales demonstrated that the Opposition do not know how to react. There is obviously some enthusiasm from the Labour party in Wales for the Silk commission, but Labour Members here are worried about their personal futures, rather than thinking about the needs of Wales and the ability of the Silk commission to address them in order to deliver stability.
In view of the previous constitutional upheaval, the outcome of the Silk commission must be sustainable and must deliver stability, leading to a settlement that will not require further changes for a generation. Such confusing changes over recent years have led to a confused model of accountability. The public find it difficult to understand who is responsible for what because of the changes since the Government of Wales Act 1998, the referendums and other developments. The Welsh Government choose to perpetuate the confusion by blaming Westminster for anything that goes wrong in Wales, regardless of their own responsibility. They have learned from the early Blair years to become masters of spin.
Take the recent controversy over the establishment of wind farms. This is a subject that is extremely important to my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who is fighting hard for his constituents. The applications for wind farms in some of the most beautiful parts of Wales stem directly from the First Minister’s technical advice note 8 policy, which established strategic search areas identifying specific parts of the country that would be looked on favourably for wind farm applications.
As soon as the impracticality and unpopularity of the policy was exposed, we had a statement from the First Minister that he wanted to lead the charge to the Westminster Government to try and stop it happening. But the application was rooted in the TAN 8 policy developed in 2005, when Carwyn Jones was Minister for Environment, Planning and Countryside and had responsibility for driving that policy. The Welsh Government enjoy the resulting confusion, blaming Westminster when the responsibility lies on their desk.
That brings me to the respect—or should I say lack of respect?—agenda shown by many Labour politicians in Cardiff Bay. The agenda is a one-way street. Anyone listening to First Minister’s questions on a Tuesday in the Assembly will hear that everything that goes wrong is the coalition Government’s fault, yet it was Labour, here and in Cardiff Bay, that left Wales the poorest part of the United Kingdom and left an education system and standards that trail those in the rest of the UK, an inferior model for cancer care, longer waiting times for any medical interaction and every Welsh economic indicator—inactivity rates or unemployment rates—scoring much worse than those in any other part of the UK. That has not changed over the past 18 months, but anyone listening to First Minister’s questions will recognise the audacity shown by the First Minister, reflected today by the shadow Secretary of State, in blaming Westminster for anything that suits them. Labour is happy to perpetuate confusion and use a publicly funded publicity machine to criticise the Westminster Government.
The reason for the decline in health, education and the economy is that since 1999 the Welsh Assembly Government have chosen to make the argument about structures, strategies and powers rather than deal with the real issues. The Welsh Assembly Government have become unaccountable because they can blame Westminster for anything that goes wrong.
On the economy, we began with the national economic development strategy. A few years later “A Winning Wales” came out. Later, the Assembly came out with “Wales: A Vibrant Economy”. Running in parallel were the entrepreneurship action plan, the European aid programmes, which began with 600 partnership models, and a 90% target for GDP by 2010, which has not been met. The Assembly must be held responsible and accountable.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend underlines my point about the failure of the Cardiff Bay Government to seek to improve the quality of life: the economy, social care and education standards. In the 1997 referendum and the first Assembly elections in 1999 we were told that the devolution dividend would change all those things. Labour has failed, and it has not changed in the past 18 months. It blames Westminster for the underfunding that Holtham identified.
Owen Smith
The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues call for accuracy in the context in which we set our remarks about the public spending cuts in Wales, but should they not set themselves the same standards when discussing the profundity of the long-term, systemic economic problems facing Wales, which are reflected in our once again qualifying for objective 1 funding? I profoundly regret that, as I am sure he does, but the fact that we qualify shows how deep seated the problems are.
Alun Cairns
I am grateful for that point, but the hon. Gentleman misses the key issue: Labour’s failure over 13 years. Labour Members salivate in decrying the 1980s. Wales was not the poorest part of the United Kingdom at the time, but it was when they left office. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary position, “It is not true”. Well, I will happily hear about the economic indicator that points out that Wales is not the poorest part of the United Kingdom.
Owen Smith
I did not say, “It is not true”, and the hon. Gentleman makes a semantic point, because we are talking about fractions. Many parts of the UK have not benefited in lots of respects; in fact, they all share the characteristics of being post-industrial parts of Britain with the same deep-seated economic problems as Wales. Those problems are not something to be solved quickly, but the Assembly has worked extremely hard and been extremely effective in all sorts of areas of public life in Wales.
Alun Cairns
I am stunned by the complacency of the hon. Gentleman, an Opposition Front-Bench Treasury spokesman who really should have a better handle on these issues. He talks about semantics and very small percentages, but when Labour left office after 13 years of government Wales was the poorest part of the United Kingdom, despite all the great announcements that we heard during the period, on the Barnett settlement, Barnett plus, European money, match funding, PES—public expenditure survey—cover and how lucky Wales was to have a Labour-run Westminster Government as well as a Labour-run Welsh Assembly Government. The data are quite clear that there has been blatant failure. They highlight the fact that Wales is the poorest part of the United Kingdom, and I am aghast at the hon. Gentleman’s complacency.
Guto Bebb
When the Welsh Affairs Committee visited Germany recently, the business people whom we met had no idea of any business organisation or Welsh Assembly Government Department with responsibility for inward investment, but every single one of them was aware of the Welsh Development Agency, an organisation that served Wales well in the 1980s but was abolished by the Welsh Government on the basis of a personal decision by the First Minister, who did not even have the courtesy at the time to inform the agency’s chairman of his intentions.
Alun Cairns
I am grateful again to my hon. Friend, who highlights an important point. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) looked on favourably when the Welsh Development Agency was mentioned, and so many businesses in Wales would love to see it returned.
We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) earlier. When his father was Secretary of State for Wales, Wales attracted 20% of the UK’s inward investment with just 5% of the population. How great it is to have another Walker family member showing such an interest in Wales. That is the difference—from the time in the ’80s when those jobs were being created and the economy was being restructured, to the failure that we have seen over the past 13 years. I also seem to recall the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) questioning the judgment of the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, in seeking to abolish the WDA and bring it into the Welsh Assembly Government.
Those differences are similar to the differences today between Labour Members at Westminster and Labour Members in the Welsh Assembly, who are far more enthusiastic about the Silk commission. Indeed, it is quite obvious that Labour Members here are in an uncomfortable position on Silk. They do not know how to react, and the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, in today’s article in The Western Mail and in his response to today’s debate, has tried to position himself by thinking, “How can we get out of this with some sort of political advantage?”, rather than recognising that Assembly Members need to be more accountable for their policies.
I have listed the failed policies and, ultimately, the one on the economy, and we could go on to health, cancer care or any others that I have mentioned, because Opposition Members need to accept and recognise their part in that failure, rather than simply looking up the M4 and blaming everyone else when they quite honestly know that they are responsible.
Many Members have referred to the need for engagement, and I cannot underline that point enough. Advocates of devolution point to the outcome of the recent referendum, when 63% voted in favour, yet the turnout was only 35%, which demonstrates that a significant number in the population are not engaged. The key challenge for the Silk commission and the Welsh Government is to capture their imagination, hear their concerns and get them involved, because, troublingly, the views of anyone sceptical of devolution are almost dismissed, and I suspect that they largely make up the 65% of people who did not vote at the time.
Jonathan Edwards
The hon. Gentleman is using, as did the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), the turnout for the referendum as a battering ram to try to hold back the whole process. The referendum was fought on an extremely technocratic question, and I was amazed that more than 30% of the people of Wales voted on a question that hardly anyone understood.
Alun Cairns
I am surprised at that intervention, and the low sights that the hon. Gentleman sets for himself. He was amazed by a 30% turnout. That almost sounds as though he was delighted with it. If that had been the case in the referendums in Scotland and Wales back in the late ’70s, they would have been dismissed.
There is a need for engagement on the issue. I do not for one second use the low turnout as a reason to batter devolution, but it underlines the fact that many people throughout Wales and in almost every local authority area—ironically, the highest turnout was in Monmouth, at 50%—are troubled about devolution or do not understand it. Their views are as important as those of the strongest advocates, who I suspect are within Plaid Cymru.
Alun Cairns
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who further underlines the point.
The key theme is accountability, which was covered extremely well in the excellent report of the Holtham commission, which set the backdrop to the Silk commission, highlighting key issues relating to accountability and some of the points that I tried to make earlier. The report states that the public sector, and I would say the Welsh Government specifically, is
“in some ways detached from the economic circumstances of the citizens it serves”—
that is the need for better accountability—and
“simply blaming Westminster for inadequate resources”
is not an option. That is effectively the position we are in.
The change of Government at Westminster has produced a chorus of an argument from the Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay, to the extent that the level of debate is stymied to mere rhetoric. The best description of the Welsh Government’s approach came from a former Labour Member of this House who said that the Welsh Government is in danger of becoming an
“institutional chip on the Welsh shoulder.”
That encapsulates the approach. The accountability argument must be underlined time and again.
It is too easy for the Welsh Government to play the blame game, and I hope that the Silk commission will consider accountability extremely seriously. The Holtham report offers useful pointers. It states that if it is decided that there is merit in devolving fiscal powers, the tax should be one that
“is paid by a high proportion of Welsh residents…raises substantial revenue”
and
“is ‘visible’ to most citizens”.
It is not surprising, therefore, that in seeking to avoid my accountability argument the Welsh Government and the First Minister call for air passenger duty, stamp duty, aggregates tax, landfill tax, and other obscure taxes. The more obscure they are, the less accountability there is, so they can continue the blame game. That is unacceptable, and I hope that the Silk commission will reject that.
Owen Smith
Again, I intervene on a point of accuracy. The hon. Gentleman quoted extensively from the Holtham report, which he purports to have read, so he will know that those are the very taxes that Gerry Holtham refers to as potentially being among the minor taxes that would be transferred to Wales.
Alun Cairns
The hon. Gentleman mistakes my recognition of the quality of the Holtham report for an indication that I agree with all its conclusions, and I simply do not agree with all the conclusions. I said earlier that it is a useful backdrop to the Silk commission. That should be recognised.
To pursue the argument about accountability and the approach taken by the Welsh Government, in a similar vein it needs to be noted that over the past 12 years the Labour party in Wales used council taxes to raise additional funds and then put the responsibility on to local authorities, most of which, as a result of 13 years of Labour Government, were not Labour. The Conservative party ran the same number of councils in Wales as the Labour party, and that is a far cry from how it was at the time of devolution. Most of the funding for local authorities comes from the Welsh Government, so I would suggest that over the past 10 years or so there has been a deliberate strategy of squeezing funding from local government in Wales, forcing local authorities to raise more money in council tax. That is demonstrated by the fact that over the past five years the average council tax increase in England was 2.6%, compared with 3.8% in Wales. That amounts to a plan to make local authorities responsible for the additional revenue that they are raising instead of becoming accountable for themselves. I could go on to talk about the re-banding mistakes that were made in some areas, which squeezed even more council tax out of some of the people who were least able to pay.
I will close by sounding a note of caution about the volatility of many taxes. Whatever the Silk commission develops and comes up with, I hope that it will recognise the volatility between the level of income tax raised three years ago in Wales compared with the level raised now. There is a significant difference, and that will be another important factor for Silk to consider.
Owen Smith
No, it has not been done, as the hon. Lady says. It is very good to see her today—I am very pleased that we have an English Member taking part in the debate, which is extremely important. However, I say to her that what came out of that report was a commitment in the Conservative manifesto and the coalition agreement, which has now been enacted, to begin a debate on the West Lothian question. We are concerned about the direction of travel and the trajectory that many Members now feel has been set.
In recent debates in Westminster Hall and elsewhere, many Members have referred rather aggressively to resentment felt by English constituents about the supposed unfair stipend or subsidy afforded to, and enjoyed by, citizens in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. As Opposition Members have tried to point out today, that is not an unfair stipend, but a reflection of the accurate needs, born of the industrial heritage and present problems, of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Neither, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen mentioned, is it a reflection of the relative receipt of revenues in Wales versus parts of England where a needs-based formula already applies: for example, greater subsidy—if we want to use that word—and support is afforded to the north-east, the north-west and even the south-west than is afforded to Wales. It is legitimate, therefore, for us to voice our concerns about the Government’s attitude to the Union. That is not scaremongering; it is merely a question and a set of observations on our part.
The other reason we are worried, of course, is that, traditionally, Conservative and Labour Governments have not been partisan in how they have addressed the constitution, but for the first time, judging from how the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 was addressed in this place, a partisan attitude has been taken to the constitution. I hold that view absolutely fully. It is a view that I have heard expressed on many occasions by Conservative Members, not in the House, but outside. They view the Act as being underpinned by partisan motivations, and I fear that we might be seeing a similar set of motivations here. I sense that the Tory party has been seduced by the prospect of hegemony in England in the long term, even if it means a truncated, fragmented UK. I, for one, as a Welshman and proud British citizen, do not want that to come about.
Alun Cairns
Speaking as a Conservative Member, I do not accept that point. In my mind, the purpose of the Silk commission is to provide accountability and stability for the long term, but the motives about which the hon. Gentleman talks were behind devolution in 1997, when it suited the Labour party in Wales, rather than Wales as a nation.
Owen Smith
I wholly dispute that. Devolution in 1997 was born of need and demand in Wales. It had been developing for a long time. It perhaps had not come fully to fruition in 1979, but by 1997 there was a clear demand for it, and that demand has thickened over the past 13 years, right through to the referendum, when we saw it greatly increased.
Alun Cairns
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being extremely generous. If demand was so strong, why was there only a 50% turnout and 7,000 majority? That is how strong his demand was.
Owen Smith
Several Government Members have talked about what, to put it bluntly, is ancient history now and pointed to the size of the mandate and turnout, but we all know that politics is a precarious, parlous business. The Tory party clearly thought that it had a sufficient mandate at the last election. It did not get a majority, but nevertheless it is the ruling party. We have to bury that argument and move on. Right now, there is clear support for devolution in Wales, as was shown in the recent referendum. That is not in dispute. It ill behoves Government Members, who purport to support devolution, to keep dredging up these ancient concerns and this ancient history, because, frankly, it gives us the suspicion that they still have not quite bought into it.
I have a second concern, which, actually, I share with some Government Members—even, perhaps, the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies)—about the constant, cyclical nature of the interaction between demands and desires, legitimate or otherwise, for additional, incremental powers in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and even, perhaps, England. That is a problem. It leads to perpetual pressure for change and to very few instances in which we—legislators in this place and the devolved Administrations, which have their own particular locus—can put our foot on the ball and contemplate the broader picture, the country’s longer-term trajectory. That is hugely important. The Silk commission ought to consider that wider context.
In particular, however, this House needs to consider that wider context and be the place in our country where we contemplate the aggregate impact of the changes to the particular discrete functions and powers of different parts of the UK and where we think long term about what the benefits and disbenefits might be. That is not to take an anti-devolutionist perspective, however. I am thoroughly committed to devolution and the principle of subsidiarity—pushing down power and democratic accountability as low as we can—which is why I talk in my excellent and recommended article for Compass about reinvigorating local government democracy in England, which would be a jolly good thing. However, I am also British—indeed, proudly so—and I feel that my values and those of the Labour party transcend national boundaries and the identity politics that stem from an obsession with national boundaries. My concern is that the wider picture—the longer-term perspective—is too infrequently considered in this place or, in particular, the devolved Assembly. I do not want Wales to be as politically peripheral in Britain as it is de facto geographically peripheral. I worry that at some point that will be the net consequence—the aggregate impact—of these things.
Let me turn briefly to some of the specificities of what Silk will consider. I will take only one—corporation tax—but for me, they all highlight the risk that we might face. Anyone picking up the Financial Times this morning could have read an article about Peter Robinson, the First Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who has advocated adopting a 10% corporation tax rate to compete with the 12.5% rate in the south. My view is that this would be hugely difficult and dangerous. Although it might be advantageous for Northern Ireland in the short term, we should also consider the risk that it would necessarily lead to arbitrage between the two areas and to different pricing arrangements. If we had variable taxation bands between different parts of the mainland, we would certainly see arbitrage across the borders and we would need internal transfer pricing policy and legislation in this place and the other jurisdictions. Given the difficulties with legislative vehicles to deal with transfer pricing between European countries—the disaster, even—what on earth would they be like within the UK?
Westminster needs to hold the ring. Westminster needs to consider the risks. Westminster needs to be the place where this debate is thought about, in conjunction with the discrete and—from the perspective of the local jurisdictions—eminently reasonably changes that may be wished for. This place also needs to be where the broader economic context is considered, because, bluntly, some of the peripheral changes to taxation that we are talking about and that Holtham talks about—indeed, perhaps even the larger changes too—will not lead to the growth, jobs, wealth and opportunity that would be created by measures that the Government could be implementing right now, such as those in Labour’s five-point plan.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
I had intended to speak for about an hour, but I probably intervened for about an hour instead, all told, and I apologise to my colleagues for that. I shall therefore make my speech as short as possible.
The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) opened her speech by saying that she was she was a proud Unionist. I would describe myself as a proud Unionist as well, but also as a proud devolutionist. I am a Unionist not on the basis of any ideology or fixed arbitrary principle, but in recognition that—as in the old trade union cry, “Unity is strength”—the constituent parts of the United Kingdom together add not only to social cohesion but to economic activity, and to our political clout on the world stage. That should be recognised in today’s debate.
The theme that I want to adopt in my brief speech, and to convey to members of the Silk commission if they hear today’s debate, is that we should not be talking about loosening ties. Instead, we should engage in a mature debate, recognising that there is a positive, welcome tension between our Government and the Governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—although I must add, perhaps to the disappointment of my colleagues in the Plaid Cymru camp, that that is not necessarily a recipe for independence. I think that we carry much more clout if we work together. If devolution constituted a settlement, I think that on the basis of today’s debate we can all agree that it is still settling. If it is a process, I think what we have learnt from the debate is that we need to know where it is processing to.
Let me begin by paying tribute, as others have done, to the calibre and quality of the members of the commission—not least the political appointees, but in particular Paul Silk. He will be known to my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and other Members not just because of his extensive experience, but because he was a House of Commons Clerk for nearly 25 years during three different periods. He is also a former Clerk of the Welsh Grand Committee. He has lectured and written extensively on Parliament and the constitution; he co-authored the seminal book, “How Parliament Works”. I think we can all agree, therefore, that no one better appreciates the very sensitive balance of our constitutional settlement.
Professor Nick Bourne was a colleague of mine—not political, but academic—at Swansea Institute in my lecturing days. He was also shadow Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery, in addition to his role as Leader of the Opposition. I am sure he will also make a good contribution to the Silk commission.
Sue Essex is very well known, and there is a huge amount of cross-party support for her on a number of issues. She is a former Minister for Finance, Local Government and Public Services. She is clearly of high calibre, therefore. Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym is an economics expert and a long-standing adviser to Plaid Cymru. He has for many years advocated revisiting the Barnett formula. Rob Humphreys has been a strong advocate of devolution for many years, and was also a member of the all Wales convention. The Silk commission is in good hands with them and its other members.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen gave a warning about a possible Trojan horse. I welcome the fact that we are debating this subject today and that the Silk commission will undertake the work assigned to it, but I suggest to my right hon. Friend that the danger is not so much of a Trojan horse, but of a horse and trap, in that this could lead us into a trap.
The Secretary of State must understand that concern; these are not idle worries. Although there is significant merit in addressing the two matters that the Silk commission will examine—power and fiscal responsibilities—there is a worry that Wales will be done down. To her credit, the Secretary of State has made it clear today that she does not want that to happen, but there is a great deal of concern among Opposition Members that we might end up in that situation, particularly given the coalition’s approach to constitutional affairs since it was formed. The concern is that this process will not be about looking after the best interests of the people of Wales, or even the best interests of the institutions of Wales—that is, in fact, a decidedly secondary consideration—but that instead it will be a way to look as if we are giving with one hand, while in reality taking away with the other. That is a concern, and we must monitor what happens.
Although I welcome today’s debate, it must not be the only one on this topic. We must find opportunities to address it in the Welsh Grand Committee or a different forum, because we need to discuss the burning issues of the day facing Wales, such as the state of the economy and of society and, as I see in my constituency, the attacks on our communities.
My family has not consistently been on the same side in the devolution debate. My late uncle, the Member for Gower for many years, was a strong defender of the status quo back in 1979, along with many other notable people at that time. Times move on, however, and it is right for us to address this issue again as things progress, and we must also acknowledge that it involves not only the Wales question but the England question too. That also needs to be addressed. I should add that I welcome the involvement of England MPs in today’s debate, and that engagement must continue and deepen.
The England question becomes more important the more Scotland considers its powers in respect of fiscal autonomy and other areas, and the more Wales considers such matters too. If we do not address the England question, there will not only be political asymmetry in the old Celtic and Pictish nations; there will also be asymmetry here in England.
Through the years, numerous suggestions have been made as to how to address the England question, and many of them have been rejected out of hand. The idea of having an England-only Parliament has been proposed, as has the idea of restricting the ability of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland MPs to “interfere”, as some would say, in England-only matters. As we have learned in today’s debate however, there appears to be a general consensus that it is pretty hard to identify England-only matters, and it is also hard to identify Wales-only matters. We need to speak loudly in defence of the ability of this place to continue putting its opinions forward strongly on all matters.
Alun Cairns
The hon. Gentleman is making an important point, which I think is recognised on both sides of the House. Does he think that that principle also needs to apply to his colleagues in the Welsh Assembly, and that they should recognise that the decisions that they take affect policy making here? There therefore needs to be dialogue between the Welsh Affairs Committee and Ministers in Wales, between Back Benchers and Ministers, and between Ministers here and Ministers in Wales.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Indeed. People who, like me, are very positive about devolution welcome such maturity and two-way engagement. We should look for ways to enhance that. That is to do with respect and, as I said earlier, that respect goes both ways.
Nia Griffith
The irony being that today we have discussed the importance of Parliament; many Government Members have referred to the importance of the commission being set up by Parliament.
Nia Griffith
No, I think that I have made my point. Opposition Members felt that they would have had more chance to influence things if the timing of the debate were different.
Up and down Wales, as far as the person in the street is concerned, the Silk commission is set up and can get on with its work. What those people are worrying about today is the empty order book in their company, the shops that are closing in their high street, the cuts in their council services, losing their job or their home, their children not being able to find work, and the daily struggle to make ends meet as prices for essentials such as food, vehicle fuel and energy bills spiral upwards. They understand something that the Government seem to have forgotten—that before the Government can raise any revenue or talk about any formula to distribute it, they need wealth creation. Indeed, what is the point of talking about taxation without wealth creation?
This week the Government have sent completely the wrong message to potential investors in Wales. Only days after the head of Tata Europe told MPs that he has been having serious doubts about future investment in Wales because of this Government’s lack of a long-term manufacturing strategy, the Government confirm his doubts by trying to sneak out in a written statement yet further cuts to the feed-in tariff scheme, with devastating effects on the industry. This is not about feed-in tariffs. This is not just about manufacturing industry. This is about raising the proper revenue and then being able to do something with it. It is about wealth creation, setting the right long-term strategies that will encourage manufacturing to come to Wales, attracting the investment that we need and providing the wealth so that we can talk about what we do with it. [Interruption.] I still have two minutes to go, I believe.
Why do we remain wary of the Government’s motives and suspect that they might be setting up the Silk commission to try to reduce funding to Wales? Because daily we see funding being sucked out of Wales, whether in higher VAT, the change from the retail prices index to the consumer prices index for the calculation of pensions and benefits, or the winter fuel allowance being cruelly cut for the over-80-year-olds from £400 to £300 this month, leaving many worrying about whether they can afford to put the heating on. It is this sucking money out of Wales that worries us considerably.
Although we welcome the Silk commission, wish it well with its work and look forward to debating its findings, in the meantime I again ask the Secretary of State to make it a priority to establish the so-called Barnett floor to protect funding for Wales, and I urge her Government to adopt fiscal policies that will stimulate the economy in Wales.
Mr Jones
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already indicated the levels of fiscal accountability that are devolved in other parts of Europe. Ultimately, these will be matters for the Silk commission, which, as the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) pointed out, will no doubt take into account what prevails in other parts of Europe in arriving at its conclusion, as it should.
In the brief time remaining, I will respond to the various points made. The shadow Secretary of State has explained to me the reasons for his absence, which we fully understand. He was less than enthusiastic about the commission, giving it a “cautious welcome”, which was as cautious as it gets and gave a whole new meaning to “welcome”. Resorting to the oldest rhetorical trick in the book, he set up the straw man of “devo-max”, under which Wales would be responsible for raising all its own revenue. He seemed to suggest that the commission’s recommendations might result in Wales having to raise all its own revenue, as a consequence of which public spending would be halved. I hope that it is unnecessary to point out, but I shall anyway, that the people of Wales should ignore these scare tactics.
Mr Jones
I shall not, as I have very little time left. I am sure my hon. Friend understands.
Fiscal devolution will work only where there is consensus on the powers to be devolved and in circumstances where the transfer of powers does not put unsustainable burdens on either the devolved Administration or the UK as a whole.
The shadow Secretary of State and other hon. Members mentioned Holtham and inquired why it was not being brought within the remit of the Silk commission. Separate bilateral discussions continue between the Government and the Welsh Government on all the Holtham commission’s proposals, including the idea of a funding floor and its wider proposals for reforms—an approach supported by the Welsh Government. The Government and the Welsh Government have started discussions, which will include work to gain a shared understanding of trends in Welsh spending, of previous studies on Welsh needs and of the operation of existing borrowing powers. Once consideration of spending trends and previous needs studies has been completed, and subject to Government and Welsh Government Ministers agreeing that a problem exists, the next step will be to look at options for reform. I put that on the record because of the concerns that right hon. and hon. Members expressed.
I believe that we must rely on the good sense of the commission, which will seek to find consensus—I make no apology for repeating the word because it is crucial to the commission’s work—on the extent to which the Welsh Assembly and Government should become more financially accountable.
I found the shadow Secretary of State’s negativity and tribalism most disappointing, and it was not typical of the debate. He appeared to have little or no faith in the capacity of the people of Wales to run to any extent their own financial affairs and, perhaps more importantly, to decide whether at an election a politician is making an unsustainable promise, which of course is crucial to what it falls to us to consider.
I found the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) disappointingly and uncharacteristically cynical. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] I have to say, I found it quite hurtful. He said, almost in terms, that the conclusions of the commission were a fait accompli that would lead inevitably to more powers for the Assembly, but the commission has been asked to consider the boundaries of the devolution settlement and modifications that could work well for the benefit of Wales within the United Kingdom.
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) is not here, but he made the important point that significant cross-border issues fall to be considered, and it is well within the commission’s remit to decide that in certain cases powers should be repatriated from the Assembly. That is what the Calman commission found in its consideration of the Scottish devolution settlement, and it is quite open to the Silk commission, which has a wide-ranging remit, to do so, too, so I hope that that offers some reassurance to my hon. Friend—who looks very reassured, I am bound to say.
The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) praised the excellence of the commission members, and I feel it appropriate to echo that praise: we have a very well constituted commission. He raised the spectre of a Trojan horse, however, and doubted whether there was any real consensus on the commission, so I think it fair to point out once again that all the party leaders in the Assembly, including the Labour First Minister, co-operated in agreeing the commission’s terms of reference, and each party has a political appointee on it. I hope that gives the right hon. Gentleman some reassurance that it is not by any means an evil Tory Trojan horse; it is a genuine attempt to see whether it is possible to arrive at a settlement that will benefit the people of Wales in the long run.
The right hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of whether there will be a referendum on additional tax-raising powers, but that very much depends on what the Silk commission itself recommends. I for one find it hard to see how, for example, if there were recommendations on any significant changes to income tax, it would be possible to go forward without consulting the people of Wales as to whether that was what they wanted; after all, that is what happened in Scotland, and I have no doubt that it should happen in Wales.
The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) took considerable credit on behalf of our Liberal coalition partners for the establishment of the commission, but I have to point out that it was a joint coalition commitment and one to which the Conservative party is very much wedded. He, too, praised the excellence of the commission members, and he paid tribute to Nick Bourne, the Conservative nominee. I can only echo the hon. Gentleman’s view that Professor Bourne will be an excellent member of the commission.
The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) did give a welcome, which I believe was genuine, to the commission, and I was very pleased to hear it, but he referred to the terms of reference and queried the reference to the United Kingdom’s wider fiscal objectives, pointing out that we live in a time of stringency that has resulted in spending reductions. Well, of course, it has, and I will not intrude into his private grief by pointing out the reason why we have to cut our public spending, but nevertheless it is quite right that whatever the commission decides should operate within the wider fiscal objectives of the United Kingdom as a whole.
There were excellent contributions also from my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), the hon. Member for Arfon, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) and my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who came up with a memorable toothpaste tube metaphor, which I shall use regularly when talking about the effect of devolution on the United Kingdom. There was also a supportive contribution from the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards).
This has, as I say, been—
Oral Answers to Questions
Alun Cairns Excerpts(14 years, 7 months ago)
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Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Private sector job creation is the only way to grow the Welsh economy sustainably. Does my right hon. Friend recognise that enterprise zones have a key role to play in that respect, and does she agree that Barry would make a great location for Wales’s first enterprise zone?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman certainly punches above his height. The Vale of Glamorgan could have no greater champion. I refer him to the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in the Welsh Assembly, who I am sure will be able to help him and make his dreams come true.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alun Cairns Excerpts(15 years ago)
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Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman should know that we liaise constantly with our ministerial colleagues, but he should recognise, as his right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State does, that the private sector is too small in Wales and the public sector too predominant. I was interested to see, by the way, that the hon. Gentleman has been appointed Parliamentary Private Secretary to the shadow Chancellor—no doubt deficit denial was part of the job description.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Inward investment and private sector job creation will help to overcome the public sector job losses that we have inherited as a result of the state of the economy under the last Administration. Given that millions of pounds worth of deals were struck between the UK and China last month, does the Minister recognise and share my disappointment that whereas the Scottish First Minister has been to China four times in the last two years, the Welsh First Minister has not been there once?
Mr Jones
Yes, that is disappointing. China presents enormous opportunities for inward investment to Wales and to the UK as a whole, and these are matters on which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is liaising closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Welsh Grand Committee (Scrutiny)
Alun Cairns Excerpts(15 years, 3 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Alun Michael
That is indeed disappointing. I believe that many people on the Government Benches are beginning to feel slightly embarrassed by how this Government are behaving. They are behaving not as a responsible majority but as an oppressive one.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
If the right hon. Gentleman wants to talk about embarrassment, let me tell him that I am embarrassed by the opportunistic approach of Opposition Members. I come back to the point about voter registration: if voter registration was such a priority, why did 13 years go by in which nothing happened in that respect?
Alun Michael
It was not that nothing happened. The Electoral Commission was meant to deal with some of these issues. I was a member of the Committee on Standards in Public Life which looked at how such matters were dealt with, and which said that the commission needed to improve its act in terms of voter registration. Labour Members proudly debated the issue and pressed the Labour Government to recognise its importance, so I see no reason why we should not press the present Government on it.
Alun Michael
I agree entirely. The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) should be fighting for the jobs that were promised—
Alun Michael
In a moment. The hon. Gentleman must contain himself and let me finish at least one sentence before he seeks to intervene again. He should be fighting for the jobs in his constituency which were promised as part of the defence academy, and which would enhance the performance of our armed services and save money as well as helping the economy of south Wales. Perhaps he would like to discuss that point rather than just raising spurious points and trying to embarrass the Opposition.
Alun Cairns
I object absolutely to the comments made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). He knows well that I have been in discussions with the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Defence and other Ministers—[Interruption.]
Martin Caton (in the Chair)
Order. The background noise has grown as this debate has gone on. Could Members be quiet enough that I can hear whoever is speaking?
Alun Cairns
Thank you, Mr Caton. Discussions that I have had with the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Defence and other Ministers have been reported widely in the press, but the hon. Member for Rhondda conveniently chooses to ignore that fact. I am delighted that St Athan remains the preferred option for the defence training solution, and I am shocked and saddened by the approach taken by Opposition Members in favour of a private company and cost to the taxpayer—
Martin Caton (in the Chair)
Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that that was supposed to be an intervention.
Alun Michael
My hon. Friend is right about the fundamental point: a Government—the majority—have to show respect for the minority, even when they know that they have the numbers to win a vote on their legislation. At the end of the day, the Government will get their Bill, but they will have done so in bad temper, with ill grace and without proper respect for the minority.
Alun Michael
I have given way to the hon. Gentleman several times. I wish to conclude my remarks because others wish to speak.
Alun Michael
It is our responsibility as Members of Parliament to enhance democracy, and those in power can help to do that only by listening and debating. That is the essential point. I am concerned about that, not only on this topic, although it is the burning topic before us, but on the grounds that for the next five years we need topics that affect Wales to be debated properly in regular meetings of the Welsh Grand Committee—
Alun Michael
No, I will not give way.
We need the Committee’s performance and activity enhanced rather then diminished. That can be achieved only if the Secretary of State shows proper respect for the people of Wales and their interests, uses the mechanism of the Welsh Grand Committee to listen to the views of those who represent the people of Wales—Welsh MPs—and shows proper sensitivity to the fact that she does not represent any of the people of Wales.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) on securing the debate. From its title, which related to the scrutiny of Government policy as it applies to Wales, I hoped that we would be looking at the role of the Welsh Grand Committee, and indeed at other ways that Back Benchers can express their views on Wales. We came to that topic a little later in the right hon. Gentleman’s contribution than may have been best for the debate.
I signed the early-day motion calling for a Welsh Grand Committee on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. It would have been a good idea, because it would have allowed Members to express their views and engage a little more with the people of Wales. I have not been inundated with representations from constituents on this matter; I may be atypical, but that reflects my experience. In previous Parliaments we had regular Welsh Grand Committees—
Alun Cairns
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for the approach that he is taking, but is he surprised that over the past six years the Welsh Grand Committee met only once in three of those years?
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. We are particularly lucky that a Welsh Member and a Welshman is in the Chair. That is particularly appropriate.
I offer my warmest congratulations to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) on securing the debate and on highlighting the twin critical issues at its heart. The debate is about balancing the rights of the minority in the House, or the Opposition party, against those of the majority, or the Government party, in scrutinising legislation as it relates to Wales. There is also the larger, far more important issue of balancing the rights of the minority country, Wales, against those of its dominant partner, England, in their peculiar and, for the moment, stable union within the UK.
Too many Members to list have spoken with enormous passion about both those critical issues. Their eloquence and passion bears great testimony to just how deep the feeling is among Opposition Members that Wales—our country—is being ill served by the coalition Government. We feel that we are being disrespected, disregarded and, today, disfranchised.
Alun Cairns
Would the hon. Gentleman not acknowledge that, among the many crocodile tears that have been shed today, there is just a hint of self-interest?
Owen Smith
No, I would not. Throughout the debate, one of the most disconcerting things about the Government’s Front Benchers, and particularly the silence of their Welsh Front Benchers, has been the absolute failure to acknowledge that there are any legitimate questions to be asked about balancing the interests of Wales against those of England. The continued refrain has been that we are talking about balancing one seat and the votes in it against another seat and the votes in it. There is a legitimate issue there, and we have acknowledged throughout that the issue of equalisation is legitimate, but it is just as legitimate to address the issue of balancing the aggregate weight of Wales and Welsh seats against that of English seats—our Dai of 40 seats against the English Goliath of 533 seats. That is a legitimate question, and the Welsh Grand Committee should have met to consider it. The Secretary of State’s decision repeatedly to deny Welsh Members our right to discuss these critical issues is yet another example of the disrespect agenda that is the hallmark of this Government’s approach to Wales.
Owen Smith
Again, I completely agree. It is an absolutely telling indictment of the Government that they did not even think about the implications of the referendum because they are hellbent on railroading the proposed changes through in an attempt to rig not only the next election, but successive elections. This is about trying to secure Tory power in perpetuity, and we need to defend against that.
As various Members have said, the Welsh Affairs Committee is a Tory-chaired Committee with a Tory majority. It concluded unanimously that the proposed changes would have an impact on not only Wales, but the UK—on our constitution and the union between Wales and England.
Alun Cairns
This is the second or third time that I have heard the point about the make-up of the Welsh Affairs Committee, but it is made up in just the same way as every other Select Committee. Will the hon. Gentleman tell me when this Administration introduced the process and structure that led to the imbalance that he talks about?
Owen Smith
I will respond with a counter-question, I am afraid. As someone who sat with me on that Committee, does the hon. Gentleman deny supporting its conclusion that the Bill would gerrymander the map of Wales and should not be passed?
Oral Answers to Questions
Alun Cairns Excerpts(15 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Jones
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the coalition agreement makes it clear that the Government intend to protect the winter fuel payment. It is clear that the age at which both men and women get winter fuel payments will move in step with the equalisation in entitlement to the state pension, but I reiterate that the coalition agreement makes it clear that we intend to protect that payment.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
6. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues, the Welsh Assembly Government and CBI Wales on support for Welsh businesses.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I have regular discussions with many ministerial colleagues to ensure that we support Welsh businesses. I have already met with CBI Wales twice, and I have quarterly meetings planned with the CBI along with other business organisations in Wales, so that the issues affecting individual companies are fed directly into coalition Government policy.
Alun Cairns
Over the last 10 years, Wales became the poorest part of the United Kingdom under the Administration of Labour both here at Westminster and in Cardiff bay. A recent Oxford Economics report suggests that over the next five years Wales will create only 4,000 new jobs. Given that Wales will have the same macro-economic conditions as every other part of the UK, is not that a sad indictment of the Administration in Cardiff bay and the legacy of Labour?
Mrs Gillan
My hon. Friend has experience of the Welsh Assembly Government and the Welsh Assembly, so I will leave his comments to stand. I agree with him that the situation that we have inherited is shocking across the UK, and it is especially sad in Wales because gross value added per head is the lowest out of all the UK nations and has been that way since 1998. However, I want to be optimistic about the Welsh economy and I have recently visited some very successful businesses that are investing in Wales and looking at creating jobs, including Corus, Sharp and Ultrapharm—the latter is producing wheat-free healthy lifestyle products for Marks and Spencer. I have been impressed by the number of jobs that are starting to appear in the Welsh economy, and I want to encourage more businesses to come and do business in Wales.