Welsh Grand Committee (Scrutiny)

Alun Michael Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Mr Caton, I believe that this morning we are seeing a further example of the Government’s contempt for Welsh Members and the procedures of the House. When I first sought the debate, with the support of a large number of Welsh Members, I was advised by both the Speaker’s Office and the Table Office that the subject should be dealt with by the Leader of the House. Indeed, the debate was delayed by a week specifically so that it would fall in a week when he would be responding to debates in Westminster Hall. I have not been notified that he has declined to respond to the debate and has instead put up the junior Minister at the Wales Office to reply. The Leader of the House is clearly unwilling to appear here today to defend the Secretary of State’s behaviour, even though it falls within his responsibility to do so. On a more important constitutional point, the opportunity that the Welsh Grand Committee provides for Welsh Members to debate properly major issues affecting Wales is a matter for the whole House, not just for Ministers in the Wales Office. May we please know who decided that the proper procedure should not be followed when making arrangements for the debate, and why?

[Martin Caton (in the Chair)]

It is entirely a matter for the Government to decide which Minister will reply to debates. You have put on the record your grave disappointment that the Leader of the House is not present, Mr Michael.

[Alun Michael]

Further to that point of order, Mr Caton, may I therefore ask you to establish when and why it was decided that the Leader of the House would not reply to the debate, and to draw that sorry state of affairs to the attention of Mr Speaker?

[Martin Caton (in the Chair)]

I am afraid that that is not a matter for me, Mr Michael. If you would like to take it up with the Leader of the House, you can of course do so. We must now move on to the debate.

[Alun Michael]

I am grateful for the opportunity to open the debate, and to the large number of Welsh Members, particularly Labour Members, for attending. They include colleagues from across the geography of Wales and from every level, from the oldest Members to the newest. Perhaps in one sense we should be grateful to the Secretary of State for her steadfast refusal to agree to hold a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee to discuss the implications of the most serious constitutional change to threaten Wales for generations, because it has made us all the more conscious of the mechanisms that allow us to defend the interests of Wales and of the Welsh people in the House of Commons.

The subject of the debate is the Welsh Grand Committee and the scrutiny of Government policy as it applies to Wales. There is clearly a deficiency in how current legislation is debated. The failure to meet to discuss the current legislation goes beyond that individual topic and touches on how Welsh issues are dealt with generally in the House. Welsh Members have fought for proper representation over many years, and as the shadow Minister said in an excellent article in The Western Mail, the balancing of the interests of minorities with a national constitution is regarded as not just important, but essential in a number of other countries, such as Germany. There ought to be a balance that is not just about simple, crude arithmetic.

Representation of constituencies in Wales will be damaged by the provisions of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. It is about not only the reduction in numbers, but the fact that the reduction can be achieved only by tearing up the principle of representing communities of interest in each part of Wales and the principle of respecting the links with local authority boundaries and, above all, by tearing apart the constituencies that are currently represented by both a Member of Parliament and a Member of the National Assembly for Wales. That cannot be right.

Even worse is the lack of proper debate as the Conservatives steamroller over the interests of the people of Wales and principles of democracy. The matter should have been debated in the Welsh Grand Committee before the Bill was debated on the Floor of the House, and I remind Members on both sides of the Chamber of the battles that took place to establish the Welsh Grand Committee in the first place as a venue for debates.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

On the right hon. Gentleman’s point about Assembly constituencies being the same as Westminster constituencies, it follows from that part of his proposition that he is arguing that there should never be any change at all.

[Alun Michael]

I am not arguing that at all. When the National Assembly for Wales was being proposed in opposition, I actually recommended a different structure, one that would have given two Members for each Westminster constituency, elected according to the alternative vote system. That would have given 60 Members on a coterminous basis, even with the considerable reductions that the Conservatives propose, but it is only one of the principles that need to be looked at. I have already mentioned the importance of representing combinations of constituencies.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend will recall that it has been some time since the Welsh Grand Committee met in Wales. Would it not have been more appropriate, because of the impact on the Assembly and the House, for those discussions to have taken place in Wales so that constituents, Assembly Members and those interested in the Assembly could have lobbied their MPs in the Welsh Grand Committee in the Principality itself?

[Alun Michael]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have seen a development of such institutions in recent times. For instance, the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, under the distinguished chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), has developed a way of interchanging with the Assembly. It would be right for the Welsh Grand Committee also to develop its way of representing the people of Wales and engaging with the Welsh Assembly as an excellent new institution.

[Jonathan Evans]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the opportunity to develop my earlier point. He says that he is not arguing that we retain the exact structure and keep the Assembly seats, as he had proposed in the past that there should be 60 Members, two for each constituency. Hence, it would seem that he argued for 30 constituencies.

[Alun Michael]

No; I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is not very good at arithmetic, even though he depends upon it as a basic principle for his argument. The National Assembly for Wales has 60 Members. Under my proposed provision, it would have had 80 Members from the start, which, because of its greater legislative powers, would have made sense. My point is that the coterminosity of boundaries for Westminster and Assembly constituencies is one of the building blocks that should be part of the way constituencies are decided upon now and in future. For example, Sully was brought into the constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth, which I represent at Westminster, for the last Assembly elections, and the same boundary change was then made for the parliamentary elections. It is not rocket science; it is quite simple to deal with that. What is important is that we have those principles of coterminosity of boundaries with the Welsh Assembly constituencies, a respect for local authority boundaries—I say that as someone whose constituency crosses those boundaries—as the ward principle is an important one, and the representation of communities.

We all represent communities of interest. I can say confidently that my Labour colleagues all feel passionate about the communities that they represent. It is a basic parliamentary principle that we refer to each other by constituency, as we are here as representatives of our constituencies. It is that connection that the current legislation is likely to destroy, and that is why it is so important that the issue be debated properly by Welsh MPs and why it should have been debated properly in the Welsh Grand Committee.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that the Welsh Grand Committee’s ability to scrutinise legislation that is made in Westminster and affects Wales will be further enhanced by the ability to call for expert evidence? An example would be evidence from the Centre for Welsh Legal Affairs, which is based in Aberystwyth. By way of declaration, I studied at Aberystwyth university and had a great time there.

[Alun Michael]

I know that the hon. Gentleman, having got his degree at Aberystwyth, has an affection for Wales. I welcome his intervention in this debate, because his suggestion about the Welsh Grand Committee expanding its role to take evidence is one that should be considered—many colleagues may agree with that. The point is that the Committee, in order to consider whether it expands its functions, has to meet in the first place, but, with the current Secretary of State for Wales, there is no such inclination. Perhaps when we do get to meet, we can take on board the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion, which is a constructive one, and suggestions that others might make.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

How can we be clearly represented by a Welsh Grand Committee that can be called only at the whim of a Secretary of State who does not enjoy a single Welsh vote, and a Welsh Affairs Committee that is grotesquely unrepresentative of the expressed views of the people of Wales in the last election, for which only a Conservative could be elected as Chair? Is it not right that we go back to the origins of the Welsh Grand Committee and many of the fine institutions in Wales that had their genesis in the Welsh parliamentary party, which includes every Member from Wales and will meet tomorrow? Such a system would genuinely reflect the democratic views of the people of Wales.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend, who is the distinguished secretary of the Welsh parliamentary committee—that shows a capacity for survival, if nothing else—makes a powerful point, and I believe that tomorrow’s debate will be an excellent one. It will involve Welsh MPs debating matters that affect Wales.

The issue of how the Welsh Grand Committee should be called would not be an issue had the Secretary of State for Wales shown respect for the wishes of Welsh MPs to have such a debate. I agree with my hon. Friend that her intransigence has called into question the current arrangements for calling the Committee. That did not need to happen—mutual respect would have been better. It was not there on this occasion, and I regret that.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He will be aware of the excellent report that the Welsh Affairs Committee produced, to which I was proud to be a signatory. One of the reasons why we moved with such speed was that we wanted the outcome of our report to contribute to a broader discussion, but that discussion has been denied to us. Some of us have waited during proceedings on the Floor of the House for issues such as coterminosity and the break between list and parliamentary seats to be discussed. Plaid Cymru tabled a good amendment that has never been discussed. The crux of the issue is that we have not had an opportunity for a debate. The Select Committee certainly would have welcomed such an opportunity.

[Alun Michael]

I hope very much that the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to contribute to the debate today. He is absolutely right, and I congratulate him on putting representation of his constituents above his location on the Government Benches in those comments.

I had planned to refer to the Select Committee report, so perhaps I could just do so briefly now. It points out that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill that is being debated on the Floor of the House will have a greater impact on Wales than on any other nation of the UK, with a projection that Wales will lose 10 of its 40 seats—a reduction of 25%. A Committee that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) indicated, is totally unrepresentative of Wales has, nevertheless, come out with a powerful criticism of how the Government are dealing with these issues, I congratulate members of that Committee on having the independence of mind to do so.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

Last night, 12 Labour Members did not have a chance to speak in the debate on the Bill, an important piece of rushed legislation. Does my right hon. Friend agree that having a Welsh Grand Committee would have enabled all Members to speak on this important issue? It is an important issue for Wales because the Vale of Glamorgan has a registration rate of only 76%, a ward in the constituency of the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) has the worst registration rate—56%—in Wales, and my constituency, the Vale of Clwyd, went from 49,000 registered voters to 56,000. We have lessons to learn in Wales for all of Wales and the UK.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. [Interruption.] Government Members would do well to listen to the points that are being made, rather than heckling from a sedentary position.

Let me deal with the point that my hon. Friend made. He referred to the failures of registration over a number of years, and I share his concerns that the Electoral Commission has failed to regulate how such things are done. As he rightly said, the Bill is based on under-registration, and it will have an effect on the representation of people in Wales.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this debate. On the point made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) about the excellent cross-party report by the Welsh Affairs Committee, is my right hon. Friend as disappointed as I am by two things? First, the report was totally ignored by the Secretary of State for Wales, and, secondly, many of the hon. Members who were on that Committee voted to curtail debate last night through the programme motion.

[Alun Michael]

That is indeed disappointing. I believe that many people on the Government Benches are beginning to feel slightly embarrassed by how this Government are behaving. They are behaving not as a responsible majority but as an oppressive one.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to talk about embarrassment, let me tell him that I am embarrassed by the opportunistic approach of Opposition Members. I come back to the point about voter registration: if voter registration was such a priority, why did 13 years go by in which nothing happened in that respect?

[Alun Michael]

It was not that nothing happened. The Electoral Commission was meant to deal with some of these issues. I was a member of the Committee on Standards in Public Life which looked at how such matters were dealt with, and which said that the commission needed to improve its act in terms of voter registration. Labour Members proudly debated the issue and pressed the Labour Government to recognise its importance, so I see no reason why we should not press the present Government on it.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Is not this part of a much wider habit that the Government are developing in respect of Wales? Some of us have been asking for a meeting with the Secretary of State to discuss the important issue of jobs at the Defence Technical College in south Wales, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). The Secretary of State said in June that she would be happy to meet a cross-party group of MPs but still has not met any group of people. Is it not a bit embarrassing to find that the hon. Gentleman has not bothered to speak up for jobs even in his own constituency?

[Alun Michael]

I agree entirely. The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) should be fighting for the jobs that were promised—

[Alun Cairns]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alun Michael]

In a moment. The hon. Gentleman must contain himself and let me finish at least one sentence before he seeks to intervene again. He should be fighting for the jobs in his constituency which were promised as part of the defence academy, and which would enhance the performance of our armed services and save money as well as helping the economy of south Wales. Perhaps he would like to discuss that point rather than just raising spurious points and trying to embarrass the Opposition.

[Alun Cairns]

I object absolutely to the comments made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). He knows well that I have been in discussions with the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Defence and other Ministers—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Caton (in the Chair)]

Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that that was supposed to be an intervention.

[Alun Michael]

Methinks the hon. Gentleman doth protest too much. We will see the outcome, and if that outcome is jobs in south Wales we will welcome—

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

rose—

[Alun Michael]

I shall give way in a moment. The Conservatives this morning are over-excited. I think that they are embarrassed—[Interruption.] They want to talk now, but they must listen. If the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan has any success in his discussions we will welcome anything that improves the situation in south Wales. However, I suspect that the Prime Minister might not be listening to the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr David Jones]

A moment ago, the right hon. Gentleman appeared to accept the point made by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales had ignored the report of the Welsh Affairs Committee. Having served with the right hon. Gentleman on that Committee, I know that he is a fair man. Will he accept that there is adequate time for a response to that report by my right hon. Friend, and will he also accept from me that such a response will be made?

[Alun Michael]

I shall try to respond to that question fairly: my answer is no. The Select Committee has come out with a report that underlines the blindingly obvious, which is that this is all being rushed. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman look at the decisions. The summary states:

“The decision to hold a referendum on a change to the UK voting system on the same day as elections to the National Assembly of Wales might result in a number of problems for electoral administrators.”

It then goes to the heart of the matter:

“More generally, we are disappointed at the pace at which the whole package of constitutional reforms is being legislated and implemented. The provisions of the Bill will have profound consequences for the UK Parliament and for Wales in particular. We are equally disappointed that the Government has decided to timetable the Bill through the House of Commons without adequate opportunity for fuller scrutiny. We regret very much that the Secretary of State for Wales did not make allowance for a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee so that Welsh interests in the Bill could be considered in depth.”

That consideration should have taken place before the debates on the Floor of the House, and I underline “before”.

[Mr Jones]

That was not the question, though. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to confirm that he accepts that a response will be made by the Wales Office to the Select Committee’s report.

[Alun Michael]

An untimely, delayed response might be made, but that does not meet the point of timeliness and it is part of the general picture of unseemly rush by a Government who are clearly embarrassed by their own proposals.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, according to the Committee Clerks, the Secretary of State could take up to two months to respond?

[Alun Michael]

Indeed. The point is that we should have proper debate in the Welsh Grand Committee on subjects of importance to Wales, when the debate is relevant and timely. It should be now; it should have happened already.

[Mr Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

Can my right hon. Friend help me to understand why the Secretary of State is not here this morning to respond on these issues? We are speaking a lot about her, but she is not here to say for herself why the Government are doing, or rather not doing, what they propose.

[Alun Michael]

I do not think that I can. The Government are clearly embarrassed by all of this, which is why the Leader of the House has refused to be here, even though it should have been him responding to the debate today. I suspect that the Secretary of State, having taken over the subject, if you like, preferred to send her junior Minister as the fall guy. I have a great deal of sympathy for the hon. Gentleman because of the onerous burden that has been placed on his shoulders but, as I understand it, it is only the Secretary of State who decides whether there will be a Welsh Grand Committee in response, in respect for the Members in Wales. I see that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy)who, like me, has held that office, is of the same view. The Secretary of State should really have been here to answer for her own decisions.

[Mr David Jones]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his concern, but I assure him that the burden rests lightly. As a matter of information, the Secretary of State is at a Cabinet meeting, which is why she is not here.

[Alun Michael]

Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell us whether at that Cabinet meeting the Secretary of State is fighting for the interests of the people of Wales? I think that we know the answer.

[Chris Ruane]

If the Secretary of State is indeed in the Cabinet meeting, will she be raising the cancellation of the Severn barrage? Will she be raising the cancellation of the Defence Aviation Repair Agency project, the cancellation of the north Wales prison, the loss of jobs in Newport or the cancellation of the electrification of the south Wales railway line?

[Alun Michael]

I suspect that she will be sitting silently in the corner.

I want to make reference to a former Member of this House who argued powerfully for the establishment of a Welsh Grand Committee. There were debates over many years, going back into the 19th century, about the establishment of such a committee, and in his early days in Parliament Cledwyn Hughes, a former Secretary of State for Wales, argued powerfully in favour. Indeed, when a Welsh Grand Committee was initially established, he argued that it ought to be more powerful and not just a tepid opportunity for debate. Regarding the lack of adequate facilities for the proper discussion of Welsh affairs in the House, he said:

“Since I became a Member of this House some eight years ago, this has been one of my most frustrating experiences—and that is saying something.”—[Official Report, 13 July 1959; Vol. 609, c. 120.]

He went on to point out how the reports that the Government published would not be debated. Cledwyn Hughes represented Ynys Môn—the county where I was born—and it is ironic that the effect of the Bill will be to force Anglesey into some sort of combination with part of the mainland. That is disrespect to Môn mam Cymru.

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for mentioning my predecessor Cledwyn Hughes, who fought in this House for not only Welsh rights, but for the fourth Welsh channel. Last week, not only were we denied a debate on the comprehensive spending review—Cledwyn would have been turning in his grave—but we had the Government just announcing that the channel was going to the BBC. Cledwyn Hughes worked with Conservative Members of Parliament over those years, and he worked in consensus. That consensus has been broken.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend makes a very powerful point. Cledwyn Hughes was loyal to his party and passionately loyal to Ynys Môn, but he was a man to seek to build consensus where consensus was possible. Had the Secretary of State agreed to the requests from Labour Members for a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee to debate these issues, she would have been treated with respect. But she has not treated us with respect.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

On that point, my right hon. Friend will recall that in the only Welsh Grand Committee that we have had in this Session further contempt was shown when the Government had the Chief Secretary to the Treasury there without actually going through the usual channels to advise us. That shows the total contempt that this Government have.

[Alun Michael]

I agree with my hon. Friend’s point.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on leading the debate into a calmer, cooler and, may I say, more constructive stream. But does he not agree that Cledwyn Hughes would not be content with just seeing the Welsh Grand Committee as it is but would wish it to evolve to meet the needs of Welsh Back Benchers? Surely the purpose of this debate is not to look at specific legislation but to consider the role of the Welsh Grand Committee and how it can be improved.

[Alun Michael]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. He makes a constructive point. I think that the passion and anger that he sees on the faces of many people in this Chamber is due to the constructive debate that he and I would wish being denied us. It has been denied us in the Welsh Grand Committee, and it has also pretty much been denied us on the Floor of the House in the rush to legislate. In the past few years, we have seen very welcome strides forward in how Wales is represented through democratic institutions. The National Assembly for Wales is a success; it will continue to develop and grow, and I am certain that it will be even more effective and successful in the future. But it is at its best when representatives in Parliament and representatives in the Assembly are working together.

I have seen the benefit of that in my constituency, and in the teamwork between Welsh Labour AMs and Welsh Labour MPs that has developed very positively over the past few years. Through the way in which we have made sense of the delegation of powers to the National Assembly for Wales—through the system of legislative competence orders and debates in the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, as well as in the House, over the past 13 years—Parliament has remained relevant to democracy in Wales and should remain so.

In response to the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), the Welsh Grand Committee should develop and take on new ways of doing things, and, perhaps, take on the suggestion about taking evidence on appropriate occasions. After all, Standing Committees now do that at the start of their proceedings. We should be developing our democratic institutions, not sidelining them.

[Mr Havard]

The power in the relationship that my right hon. Friend describes between Cardiff and London and the institutions has, in part, come from the fact that it has been developing pre-legislative scrutiny—not post-hoc scrutiny. We have a Government with a questionable mandate for doing something that was not in a manifesto—a good example of why pre-legislative scrutiny is even more, not less, important.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point with which I entirely agree. During the previous Session, Parliament looked at ways in which it could enhance its work, improve its democratic credentials and reconnect with the people. The Welsh Grand Committee is one way in which we could do so properly, if we develop it.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Should not the Secretary of State learn the lesson, which she has ignored either in pig-headedness or naivety, that the Government can, ultimately, have their way because, as Disraeli said, a majority is its own repartee, but the Opposition should be able to have their say? By denying the Welsh Grand Committee the opportunity to meet, she has undermined that fundamental principle of our constitution.

[Alun Michael]

My hon. Friend is right about the fundamental point: a Government—the majority—have to show respect for the minority, even when they know that they have the numbers to win a vote on their legislation. At the end of the day, the Government will get their Bill, but they will have done so in bad temper, with ill grace and without proper respect for the minority.

[Alun Cairns]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alun Michael]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman several times. I wish to conclude my remarks because others wish to speak.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. The signal difference between the approach that he and his predecessors in the Wales Office took and the current one is that when controversial decisions had to be made he took them to be debated and to face challenge, and heaven knows he had enough controversial decisions on his plate. That is a signal of good government. The Secretary of State for Wales does not speak for Wales; the only people who speak for Wales now are those on the Opposition Benches.

[Alun Michael]

It is our responsibility as Members of Parliament to enhance democracy, and those in power can help to do that only by listening and debating. That is the essential point. I am concerned about that, not only on this topic, although it is the burning topic before us, but on the grounds that for the next five years we need topics that affect Wales to be debated properly in regular meetings of the Welsh Grand Committee—

[Alun Cairns]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alun Michael]

No, I will not give way.

We need the Committee’s performance and activity enhanced rather then diminished. That can be achieved only if the Secretary of State shows proper respect for the people of Wales and their interests, uses the mechanism of the Welsh Grand Committee to listen to the views of those who represent the people of Wales—Welsh MPs—and shows proper sensitivity to the fact that she does not represent any of the people of Wales.