Commission on Devolution in Wales

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

We may have had plenty of time in Committee, but not beforehand, and there was no wide or extensive consultation. I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, however.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

May I just recommend to the House in general, and perhaps to the Silk commission, that the commission look at the reports of the Welsh Affairs Committee on cross-border issues—which were what started this little exchange? Although the reports recognised that there were problems, they also recognised that there was a great deal of good will across the border, and that the systems were working very well indeed.

[Mrs Gillan]

That is a very constructive intervention, and in my experience the system does work exceedingly well in some instances, but that will be a matter for the commission to consider, and it will want to look at examples of what is working well and what needs adjustment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Gillan]

That is a matter not so much for me, but for the right hon. Gentleman, who I am sure will want to deal with it when he addresses the House. As far as the Conservative party is concerned, I want to be as inclusive as I can of people’s views, and that is why I am trying to create a period in which any member can make a contribution. The Conservative party, in particular, will make contributions to the Silk commission’s proceedings.

[Hywel Williams]

I merely wish to note that some distinguished members of the commission are not strictly aligned to political parties. I am sure that they will make a contribution that might even satisfy the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). Given the quality of the representation, it would be strange if they were there merely to be mouthpieces for political parties. Clearly, they have a great deal to contribute as individuals.

[Mrs Gillan]

I am about to come to the composition of the commission, and I will pick up the hon. Gentleman’s point then.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

It is always a pleasure to be here on a Thursday discussing Wales. Unlike some Members, I shall not be offering a welcome, cautious or otherwise, to the Silk commission. I have no doubts about the motives or the knowledge of any of those taking part in it, some of whom are well known to me, but I feel that we could save ourselves a lot of time and money by doing away with the commission and getting on with what we all know is going to happen. We know that the commission is going to spend until the summer of 2012 looking into the granting of fiscal powers to the Welsh Assembly. I suspect that all sorts of things will appear in the newspapers and on BBC Wales, and that there will be a debate or two. The usual faces of the great and the good in Wales will be wheeled out in support of all of this, and there will be public meetings on wet weekday evenings in various parts of Wales, to which a small representative sample of the public who all like the idea of giving further powers to the Assembly will turn up. At the end of it all, we will be told that the vast majority of people who responded were in favour of giving further powers to the Assembly, and those further powers will be given. Then phase 2 will begin, in which, I see from the report, we will consider “varying” the powers of the Assembly. Well, we all know what that actually means. It means increasing the powers.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be taking a rather “conspiratorial” view of these developments in Welsh politics. Does he think that the referendum, too, was a conspiracy?

[David T. C. Davies]

It is not a conspiratorial view; it is a view based on the history of what has been going on. We seem to be locked in a kind of constitutional groundhog day, with the same sequence of political events repeating itself over and over again. The process starts with the Welsh Assembly being granted a whole load of powers and saying, “That’s it, we’ve got all the tools we need for our toolkit.” That seems to be the popular term at the moment. “We’ve got everything we need now. We’re just going to get on with the job.” Then, a few years—or, in this case, a few months—later, it says, “Well, actually, we can’t do the job we need to do. We just need a few extra powers.” Then a commission of the great and the good is set up, often with the same people appearing time and again. They go off and consider the matter, public meetings are held, and they come back and say, “Yes, we need a bit more.” Perhaps a referendum is held, or perhaps there is just another Act of Parliament or some statutory instrument. The Assembly gets what it is given and everything goes quiet for a few months. Then the whole thing starts up again. We are in the first phase of the cycle at the moment. This is not a conspiracy; it is just how things have been happening in Wales since about 1999.

I would be delighted if we really were going to consider varying the powers of the Welsh Assembly, because I assume that varying can cut both ways. It could mean that, rather than just handing the Assembly new powers, we could look at taking a few powers away from it, once in a while. I suggested that in a Westminster Hall debate a few years ago, when Wales was doing particularly badly on the health service, but it did not seem to meet with much approval from anyone—certainly not anyone in my political party. The very fact that it had been suggested was a source of outrage to many.

The Welsh Assembly can take powers away from local authorities that are failing in Wales and, quite rightly, it has used them from time to time, so I see no reason why the Silk commission should not look realistically at the possibility of removing powers from the Welsh Assembly in devolved areas if standards have clearly dropped below those that all in the United Kingdom are entitled to expect.

Another area that I suspect the Silk commission will not look into—the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) mentioned it—is environmental taxes. To my mind, that would be very interesting indeed. As the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, Tata and other manufacturing companies in Wales that use large amounts of electricity are very angry about the way in which the environment has been used as a means to impose all sorts of extra tax burdens. The issue of the environment is worth exploring, but now is not the time or place—[Hon. Members: “Come on.”] It is very tempting, but I see Mr Deputy Speaker imperceptibly shaking his head at me. It is not for me to pose the question of why the temperature has not got any hotter since 1998, despite the fact that large amounts of carbon dioxide have gone into the atmosphere. That is not a question for today, but it is a very interesting one none the less—and I have never heard a satisfactory answer to it.

Let me move on to a more important question. If we accept that things will at some point start getting hotter because of carbon dioxide, requiring us to put all sorts of taxes on our industries, and if Welsh industries such as steel are affected, surely it is only right that those taxes be applied not just across the whole of the European Union or Europe but across the whole world. If we do not insist on that as a starting point, all that will happen is that those manufacturing industries—so important to us in Wales for jobs—will simply relocate to other parts of the world where those taxes are not being applied. It will not make a jot of difference to global carbon emissions, which will continue to come from wherever those factories relocate, but it will make a difference to jobs and the amount of tax that the Treasury collects within the UK. I would love to see the Silk commission looking into that idea, but I am afraid that I shall probably be disappointed.

You might conclude, Mr Deputy Speaker, from what I am saying that I am in some way against devolution—[Hon. Members: “No, never!”] I am not. I am devo-realist. I was against the idea of a Welsh Assembly and I have voted no at every opportunity ever since, but I say genuinely that I have a very high opinion of the abilities of the individual Members of the Welsh Assembly. I had the pleasure of working with them for eight years. I do not doubt their motives. I do not doubt the credibility of people like Rhodri Morgan, Dafydd Elis-Thomas or Nick Bourne, even though I might disagree with them on many fundamental issues.

My problem with what we are doing is very simple. The West Lothian question is the elephant in the room here. Every time we give further powers to the Welsh Assembly, we are weakening the United Kingdom. I believe that even some Labour Members, in their quieter and more reflective moments, share some of these concerns. Surely the priority for us constitutionally should not be thinking about granting further powers to the Welsh Assembly, but ensuring that all citizens of the UK have the same constitutional powers. The issue is about addressing the fact that we here in the Westminster Parliament vote on how the English run their schools, discuss how the English run their hospitals, yet we do not accept the right of anyone, including Members of Parliament, to have any say in how these issues are dealt with in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

The hon. Gentleman knows that historically I was opposed to devolution—I changed my mind as the years went by—but we had to accept what the people of Wales decided. In 1997, they decided on devolution, albeit by a small majority—we must remember that the Conservative party did not get a majority of Members of Parliament, but we still have a Conservative-led Government—and in the referendum held earlier this year the overwhelming view of people in Wales was that there should be extra powers. It was the people who decided what they wanted in the end, and I agreed with them this time.

I repeat that we do not want to hear about consensus, given that that was abandoned by this Government when they introduced the Bill to reduce the number of our Members of Parliament. For the first time since 1832 we will have fewer than 40 Members of Parliament representing Wales in this House. I am not arguing about the nature of equal constituencies—that is for another debate—but I am saying that the reduction from 40 to 30 in the number of Welsh MPs reduces the influence of Wales within the United Kingdom. I will address that in a few moments’ time.

Part I of the commission’s remit is to deal with money: the financial responsibilities and the remit of the Welsh Assembly. We are told that this is all about accountability, but the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) just referred to the devolution settlement of 1997. Such a settlement also took place in Scotland and later in Northern Ireland, where I played a part. In all those settlements that issue of financial accountability was raised, and it was argued by some, “If a parish or community council can raise revenue, why cannot a Government in Edinburgh, Belfast or Cardiff do so?”

When I chaired the talks in Northern Ireland on whether there should be income tax powers in Northern Ireland, the meeting lasted less than an hour. People in Scotland decided that they would have the possibility of tax-varying powers, but those have never been used. We in Wales rejected this from the beginning, and there was a reason for that: the resource base of Wales is much lower than that of Scotland—the resource base of Northern Ireland is even lower than that of Wales—and therefore the amount of money that could be raised by income tax in Wales or Northern Ireland, and, to a certain extent, in Scotland, is infinitesimally smaller than the amount that could be raised in England. This proposal was therefore abandoned.

The idea of how we finance our devolved Administrations, therefore, came down to the idea of the block grant. That system is not unique. The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) referred to asymmetrical devolution, and that is what occurs in Spain, except that there they have devolution everywhere. They get their money through a system of distribution of block grants and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said, they are able to ensure that there is proper distribution of money so that poorer areas are helped by richer areas such as Catalonia.

[Hywel Williams]

There is of course the exception in Spain of the Basque country. I am not arguing for us to adopt that model, under which the Basque country is taxed and money is sent down to Madrid, rather than the other way around.

[Paul Murphy]

Yes; I am talking in general terms and that may well be an exception. A block grant, based on need, going to various parts of the devolved administration is the system that was decided on. That is why we have to be very careful; we tinker with this at our peril.

An issue on which the Secretary of State and I had an exchange back in May was about whether, were there ever to be income tax-raising or varying powers in Wales, we should have a referendum to approve that. She stated in her answer to me:

“He is quite right that giving tax-raising powers would involve another referendum”.—[Official Report, 11 May 2011; Vol. 527, c. 1148.]

It would not be constitutionally right or proper for there to be tax-raising or tax-varying powers in Wales, so far as income tax is concerned, without the people’s saying so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the system was changed specifically as a result of pressure within Labour party. There was no call for such change from the Welsh public. It has been argued that change should be made as a result of demand from the Welsh people, and I recollect no such demand.

[Hywel Williams]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall that that kind of dual mandate was allowed in Scotland. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, I think that there was a Minister who held that kind of mandate when he was in the Labour Government there.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. I do not doubt that his comment is accurate.

Another reason for welcoming the announcement is that it creates a cross-party and non-party commission, which is something very fresh and new in the Welsh context. As I have said, however, it will not work unless the people of Wales take an interest in the issue. I would therefore stress that we, as Members, need to go out and persuade our own electorate to take an interest in the commission and its work.

A second reason why we need to welcome the commission is the fact that although there have been numerous commissions and inquiries into the powers of the Welsh Assembly Government and how it should work, the Silk commission is different because it has been created by the Westminster Government. The Holtham commission produced a superb piece of work. I have read the documentation, and the arguments in the research are persuasive, showing that Wales has for several years suffered a degree of unfairness in the funding provided by central Government. The degree of unfairness was not as great as was claimed by Plaid Cymru Members, but the main point—that the Barnett formula was unfair—was, I think, proven by the report.

The Silk commission is different and more advantageous. Because it is a commission established by the coalition Government in Westminster, the ability to act on its findings is stronger. We are still waiting for the Holtham recommendations to be implemented, but our ability to act on the findings of the Silk commission is clear, which is another reason why we should welcome its establishment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. For clarity, let me say that I am previously on record as stating that the Holtham report was persuasive, and the sooner the recommendations were implemented the better—recognising, of course, the financial constraints faced by the Westminster Government. I hope that fully clarifies the matter.

Before I turn to the detail, let me say that when we talk about the process of devolution in the Welsh context, there is often a misunderstanding about exactly what the people of Wales are saying. Many Members will claim that the result of the referendum in March was a clear indication of the will of the people of Wales. Like many of my colleagues, I was surprised by the extent of the support for change, but it must be said that that change happened on the basis of a comparatively low turnout. I am not one to argue that those who do not turn out have an equal voice: democracy means that people must take part in order to ensure that their voices are heard. However, I think it should concern all of us who want to ensure that we have an Assembly that works for the benefit of the people of Wales that only 35% or 36% of the Welsh population turned out to vote in that referendum.

There is currently a disengagement with the political process in Wales, which, unfortunately, is more pronounced in relation to elections to the Welsh Assembly than it is in relation to Westminster elections. For example, I was elected to the Aberconwy constituency on a turnout of 70%, one of the highest turnouts in any Welsh constituency for a Westminster election. The turnout for the Assembly election was about 40%. Those who argue that the voice of the people of Wales was heard clearly back in March are actually arguing that a turnout of 35% and a yes vote of 60% constitute a clear democratic mandate. They do not. A great deal of work remains to be done to persuade the people of Wales that the Assembly is working on their behalf, and I think that the commission will have an opportunity to engage with them.

Other myths are being peddled by those who do not support the Assembly. There are plenty of them in Wales, and they tend to hear what they want to hear. They say that when they mention the Assembly, people complain that it is not delivering on health. I think that that is true, and it is a complaint that we hear on the doorstep. They say that people also complain that educational standards in Wales are extremely poor in comparison with those in England and many other parts of the European Union. I think that that is true as well, and again we hear about it on the doorstep. However, I believe that the enemies of the Welsh Assembly often misunderstand complaints about its performance. They consider those complaints to be an indication that people are fed up with the Assembly and do not want it, but I do not agree.

I think that the people who complain are not dissimilar to a mother who criticises a badly behaved son or daughter. The mother will be more than happy to complain about the behaviour of that son or daughter, because after all she has a right to do so, but when she hears someone else complain about it, she immediately goes on the defensive. I think that the same applies to the attitudes of people in Wales towards the Assembly. Yes they criticise, yes they complain, but ultimately there is a feeling—which I think those who are unhappy about the Assembly must take on board—that it is “our” Assembly. Perfect? No, it is not. Could do better? Undoubtedly. But there is, I believe, an acceptance that it is the Welsh Assembly, and I think that those who are unhappy about the way in which it is developing should engage in the process that we are discussing to ensure that we have a better performing Assembly to serve the people of Wales.

The first part of the Silk commission’s work will relate to fiscal responsibility—an issue that I believe we should consider seriously. Yes, the Assembly has a responsibility to answer to the people of Wales, and yes, its members are elected by the people of Wales, but ultimately we need a degree of accountability for fiscal decisions. Time and again during the 18 months for which I have been a Member of Parliament, we have heard members of Opposition parties criticise the cuts being made at Westminster, and we have heard Assembly Members criticise them as well. It is easy for them to make such criticisms: there is no need for them even to think about the deficit, because it is not the Assembly’s responsibility. The cuts being made in Wales—which are much lower than expected, and lower than cuts in many other parts of the United Kingdom—are being made in a context, and the problem with the current set-up in the Welsh Assembly is that that context is missing from its debates. That is why I think we should think about fiscal responsibility.

Welfare reform provides a useful analogy. The changes proposed in the Welfare Reform Bill, which has completed its passage through the House of Commons and is currently in the other place, are built on the concept of giving people who receive state benefits a degree of accountability and responsibility. There is a difficult argument to be had. I have been talking to housing associations in my constituency about the importance of ensuring that housing benefit is paid directly to claimants, to enable them to have the same respect and dignity as any other member of society in terms of paying rent and taking responsibility for their financial position. The same responsibility should apply to Governments. After all, the smallest community council in my constituency will raise local taxation, and I see no reason why the Welsh Assembly should not have the same degree of responsibility and accountability.

Having said that, it is important to point out that there are difficulties. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) is no longer present, but he made an important point about people commuting across the border to work in jobs in north Wales. One of the jewels of the Wales economy is the Airbus factory in Broughton, which is committed to apprenticeships and training, and giving young people from north-east Wales genuine employment opportunities. We should be proud of that, and we should also be proud of the support Broughton has received from the Welsh Assembly, but we cannot deny the fact that many of the workers at Broughton travel in from England—or that many of the workers at the Ellesmere Port factories producing Vauxhall cars travel in from north-east Wales.

[Hywel Williams]

I am slightly disappointed that the hon. Gentleman and other Members seem to think of such cross-border traffic as a problem. As I have already said, a Welsh Affairs Committee report acknowledged that there were some problems, but noted that in general the arrangements were working quite well. To give just one example, more people from England are registered with GPs in Wales than vice versa. There is a technical reason for that, by my point is that cross-border travel need not be a problem.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is mixing up the question of fiscal changes, which is what we are discussing, with the issue he raises about GP surgeries. The fact that Northern Ireland has an uncompetitive tax regime compared with that of the Republic of Ireland is a huge political issue, and it is also well known that the republican factions in Northern Ireland have financed themselves through smuggling operations because of the different rates of duty on petrol.

I do not want to overstate this issue, but we should take it seriously. I am sure that we can successfully address it, and the Silk commission has been set up precisely to examine such matters. Members of Plaid Cymru often refer to the Holtham report as a document that is beyond criticism, and it highlights this issue in some detail. I think the Silk commission needs to look into it and come to a conclusion.

On fiscal responsibility, I was intrigued by an article in today’s edition of The Western Mail. I do not read The Western Mail often—after all, I am a north Walian, and we tend to read the Daily Post up in north Wales—but in that article it appears that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) said that he did not support fully devolving fiscal responsibility and tax-raising powers to Wales at this point in time, as he thinks that would be inappropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

The question of fiscal responsibility does raise issues, therefore. [Interruption.] I was under the impression that honesty in this Chamber was appreciated. There are issues that we need to consider.

[Hywel Williams]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Do you agree that when a Member mentions another Member, it is usually proper for the Member mentioned to be able to respond?

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am somewhat surprised to be called now. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) will have the opportunity to make a contribution, and I will be very brief.

First, may I apologise to the House on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), who has had to leave because of a medical appointment? I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) expressing his interest in and loyalty to the Assembly. I shall briefly regale the House with a malapropism that came out on Radio Cymru—only the Welsh-speaking Members will understand this. A farmer from Ceredigion phoned in and called the Cynulliad “the cyn lleied” [Laughter.] I will now explain. The Cynulliad is the Assembly whereas “cyn lleied” means so little. By just a simple transposition he was able to make his point.

My party of course welcomes the establishment of the commission. We are very glad that all four parties in Wales are represented, in addition to the distinguished independent members. It is a great improvement on the Calman commission in Scotland, in which, for whatever reason, not all the parties took part. We are seeing some of the consequences of that in Scotland, where there continues to be extreme controversy about the constitutional settlement. I hope that in Wales we are one step ahead of that problem.

As all hon. Members would hope, Plaid Cymru will participate in and contribute positively to the work of the commission, trusting that its recommendations will lead to better governance of Wales, in the gradualist fashion that my party has always followed. Reference has been made a number of times to our ambition for independence for our country, but I think all hon. Members would concede that in the way we have operated over the years we have been a gradualist party aiming towards independence but prepared to work with everyone else to improve the governance of our country, with growth and prosperity for our country as our aim.

Where others shy away from seeking greater responsibility for the Welsh people and our Government, my party wants them to take it. We want them to do so because by taking responsibility for ourselves, we can create and build the better Wales—the Wales that we all want to live in. Devolution should not stop—indeed, it cannot stop, as Ron Davies said all those years ago—and it will not stop, despite the Secretary of State’s apparent call for a moratorium, which I saw in The Western Mail about three weeks ago. It is clear that in respect of the requirements of good governance, this Government take action, as did the previous Government, to transfer powers to Welsh Ministers. We see statutory instruments appearing fairly regularly to transfer powers. They are perhaps minor powers—they are not changes of principle —but that process will continue.

[Mrs Gillan]

May I reassure the hon. Gentleman that what I had envisaged was that the major questions—such as energy, ports and the other areas that have from time to time come across my desk, with demands having been made that powers in those areas be passed down—should rightly be looked at by the Silk Commission, but I am certainly not ruling out transfers of administrative matters from time to time where it makes sense? To rule that out would be nonsensical and the door is always open on those issues. I think it is a question of common sense, but we must not undermine what the Silk commission will look at in part II.

[Hywel Williams]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for making that point, because her comments and those of other hon. Members could easily be misinterpreted if looked at briefly.

It seems clear that the current arrangements are not sustainable in the long term. The settlement between London and Cardiff is complicated, but that need not be a bad thing—sometimes complicated is good if the system works very well. The system does seem complicated but it is, thankfully, now much clearer than it was under the highly unsatisfactory legislative competence order system that we struggled with under the previous Government. The Under-Secretary was on the Welsh Affairs Committee with me and I am sure that he was tempted to jump to his feet when the housing LCO was mentioned. However, I shall not intrude into that particular piece of history.

[Roger Williams]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the system is not only complicated but is spread over a great body of law, making it very difficult to use that law for its proper purpose? Does he agree that the Silk commission could look at that as well?

[Hywel Williams]

There have been persistent complaints from members of the legal profession in Wales and others, including academic lawyers, who have looked at the changes to the body of law in Wales and found that it is difficult to keep track. There are people who are doing a heroic job of trying to keep track of the implications and I only wish that they were better resourced. Unsurprisingly, my opinion is that there should be a devolution of jurisdiction to Wales, which would make things rather clearer, but I shall say something about that later.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Silk commission, whatever its outcome, will not get rid of complexity entirely? Indeed, some complexity is a necessary—if not evil—part of the devolution process. The level of maturity of this stage of devolution means that there is often administrative negotiation, including over aspects that the Welsh Assembly Government want to pass back or to be retained here because it makes more sense to do them on a UK-wide basis. For example, some aspects of marine matters have been devolved, but the Assembly has later returned to say, “Actually, we’d like that little bit to be done on a UK-wide basis, because that is where the resources lie.”

[Hywel Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. As I said, sometimes complexity is good and necessary. I do not want to appear too Panglossian about this, but it seems to me that we have a system that works fairly well. However, as we say in Welsh, nid da ble gellir gwell—it is not good if it can get better. Certainly that is our ambition.

The principle of the system for Wales inevitably still leads to a lack of clarity and some confusion for the public. I am glad to see that the commission will be looking at systems of devolution in other parts of the world. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) referred to the Scottish model as one under which everything is devolved other than that which is not, as compared with the situation in Wales, where nothing is devolved other than that which is. There is a great deal to commend that particular system.

I also encourage the commission to look beyond the boundaries of the UK. In an intervention on the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), I pointed out that the system in the Basque country, in terms of money, is slightly different to that in the rest of Spain, which generally operates on a block grant principle, whereas the Basques have historically, over many centuries, raised their own taxes and then sent a certain amount of money down to Madrid. That is easier for them given that the gross domestic product in the Basque country is currently 140% of the average across the country, so they are in the rather lucky position of having the money to do that. It is interesting that the Basque country has a steel industry and a history of heavy industry, but seems to have managed to go beyond that with the Mondragon co-operatives and various other methods that it has adopted. The area is similar to Wales in population and culture, with a smallish linguistic minority, but there we are—it seems to be succeeding where Wales is not.

I would say this, but I think that the will of the people of Wales was made clear in the referendum. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Aberconwy about the turnout, but unless we have compulsory voting there will be variations in turnout and I do not think that the lowish turnout for the Assembly elections indicates disenchantment with that body—rather, it is growing in popularity and interest. He made a good point about defending the institution. It may be a body that we are not always particularly keen on, but at least it is ours, and people must defend it. I hope that the commission’s timetable allows for legislative change before the next election, but I am grateful to the Secretary of State for setting out the options, which will repay close study.

I am conscious of the fact that time is passing and that other hon. Members wish to speak, but I will make a couple of further points. There is plenty that could be done, and I recommend that the commission look at two excellent private Member’s Bills, which happen to be mine: the Bilingual Juries (Wales) Bill, which I introduced in 2007 and which failed abjectly to proceed; and the Jobcentre Plus (Wales) Bill that I introduced earlier this year and which the hon. Gentleman opposed very successfully indeed, along with many of his friends across the border.

Those are two practical changes that could profitably be looked at by the commission, and I am sure that there are more. In my party at least, we have an appetite for change. We have done the work, and we have the imagination to think about what sort of changes might be introduced, so I commend both those measures.

If hon. Members want an example of why the devolution of certain measures is necessary, I refer them to the recent shenanigans of S4C and my early-day motion 2316. The scrutiny of the Public Bodies Bill by the majority of Members from Wales was entirely deficient as far as S4C was concerned. There were five Members from Wales on the Committee that considered the Bill. Two were unable to speak because of the role that they played, but the other three Members worked very hard indeed, and I pay tribute to the hon. Members for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) and for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). We were able to debate the issue at length, and I was glad that we could do so. Subsequently, I secured a Westminster Hall debate on the subject, which was well attended.

When the Public Bodies Bill was on Report, however, we did not, for reasons that I will not go into—I shall not begin to point fingers—reach the amendment on S4C, so the majority of Members from Wales did not have an opportunity to express their opinion. That is one reason why the commission should look at an area that is difficult and complicated to devolve.

[Alun Cairns]

In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman is commenting on S4C, will he congratulate the Secretaries of State for Wales and for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on the fantastic deal that S4C has secured with funding from the BBC?

[Hywel Williams]

The deal that was eventually reached has pleased no one and has pleased everyone to some extent because S4C has taken a hard hit on money. However, I pay tribute to the Secretary of State, and to Members from all parties, including Lords Wyn Roberts, Dafydd Wigley, Dafydd Elystan-Morgan and John Morris, who pressed the case, along with the BBC Trust member for Wales, Elan Closs Stephens, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, my hon. Friends and, perhaps, me. Everyone is included—success has many parents—so let us leave it at that. All I want to say is that broadcasting should be subject to fair scrutiny.