Commission on Devolution in Wales

Roger Williams Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that reform of the Barnett formula is about not just Wales but Scotland as well? Of course, circumstances are very different in Scotland, and trying to reform the formula when there is a contracting economy would be very difficult for Scotland.

[Mr Hain]

We are talking about Wales, but I think most people, including the Scots, would concede that Scotland has done pretty well out of the formula compared with Wales. Wales is now losing out under it.

As the Barnett formula reaches the end of its life, now is the time to act. In refusing to address the convergence problem that is now occurring, the Government are penalising and disadvantaging Wales. We always acted responsibly and in the interests of Wales, and we are the only party with a deliverable and fair funding plan for Wales. Silk cannot be used to let the Government off the hook on Barnett. Although we are open to the idea of Wales raising some of the money that it spends—perhaps, as the First Minister has indicated, through stamp duty and aggregates tax—that must not be at the expense of the needs-based settlement that is vital for Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

Yes; I am talking in general terms and that may well be an exception. A block grant, based on need, going to various parts of the devolved administration is the system that was decided on. That is why we have to be very careful; we tinker with this at our peril.

An issue on which the Secretary of State and I had an exchange back in May was about whether, were there ever to be income tax-raising or varying powers in Wales, we should have a referendum to approve that. She stated in her answer to me:

“He is quite right that giving tax-raising powers would involve another referendum”.—[Official Report, 11 May 2011; Vol. 527, c. 1148.]

It would not be constitutionally right or proper for there to be tax-raising or tax-varying powers in Wales, so far as income tax is concerned, without the people’s saying so.

[Roger Williams]

I do not think it has ever been suggested that the block grant should be replaced entirely by tax-raising powers. Most systems rely on a hybrid system, as with local government systems, in which there is a block grant as well as tax-raising powers.

[Paul Murphy]

I think that if the National Assembly for Wales ever had any tax-raising powers, the system would involve such hybridity. However, I say to the hon. Gentleman that there is a concern, which I suspect is shared by people in Northern Ireland, although the comparison between Northern Ireland and Wales can go only so far because there is a land border between Northern Ireland and another sovereign state on the island of Ireland and, obviously, we have no such border. It is suggested that if a corporation tax were introduced in Northern Ireland, although some interesting benefits could result from it, the block grant would be reduced correspondingly. If that is what is happening in Northern Ireland I would say to the Silk commissioners to beware, because the same could happen in Wales. We might be told, “You can have this tax or that tax, but we’ll cut your block grant,” and that will address the accountability gap that has been referred to. That would be dangerous because it would mean that what we are entitled to through the United Kingdom taxation system would be reduced by even more than is the case at the moment.

In recent months, other Members of Parliament have said in the House of Commons, including, doubtless, in this debate, “Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland do much better than we do in the English regions. Look at the Barnett system that they have had for all these years. Look what they can do in Scotland—they can change student fees and pay to have their old people in homes and all the rest of it.” But those people forget that those countries might not do other things in the way that England does. That is what devolution is all about.

The thrust of that argument is that we in Wales are somehow or other getting more money than any other part of the United Kingdom. That is the case for some parts of the UK, but an interesting fact was referred to by the Holtham commission and in the House of Commons note in relation to the Oxford Economics report, which my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) mentioned. If we say how much money goes to Wales from central Government and how much money is raised in Wales, of course there will be a deficit. In Wales, the deficit between the money raised and the money going in is £14.6 billion. Some might say that that is a great deal of money, but in the south-west, across the Bristol channel from us, the deficit is £15.6 billion. In the west midlands, across the border from Powys, it is £16 billion, whereas in Yorkshire and Humberside it is £16.9 billion and in the north-west of England it is £23.9 billion. Let no one in this House, or anywhere else, tell us that somehow or other we are getting some sort of better deal in Wales than the English regions. It simply is not true.

There are two other issues on finance including, first, the Barnett formula, on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath touched. I cannot for the life of me understand why it is impossible for the Silk commission to consider the Holtham commission and, indeed, what happens to Barnett as part of its remit. I am not suggesting that it should hold up discussions between the Secretary of State, the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government, but to say that a commission that is dealing with the Assembly’s financial responsibilities cannot look at how the block grant is dealt with is daft.

[Roger Williams]

I agree, but it has been suggested that such an approach would not be welcomed by the Welsh Assembly Government.

[Paul Murphy]

That is for the two Governments to discuss. In the House of Commons, we are debating what it is sensible for the Silk commission to consider. I said that I did not want that to hold up any discussions that are under way, because there are implications for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but it is crazy that that cannot be discussed while all the other issues affecting money are being discussed.

I cannot understand from the response of the Secretary of State to the hon. Member for Monmouth the difference between current and future borrowing. Either one agrees with the concept of the Welsh Government being able to borrow, or one does not. The Northern Ireland Executive and the Scottish Government will be able to borrow, and local government can borrow, so why on earth can the Welsh Government not borrow? It is quite incongruous that that is the case, and I am glad at least that they can discuss borrowing, even if they cannot discuss borrowing at the moment.

Part II of the terms of reference is about powers and functions, and I agree that there is a case for looking at incongruous and difficult cross-border issues, which need to be tidied up. Most Members of the House of Commons would be wary of transferring policing and justice to the Welsh Assembly. We have a different system from Scotland, and we are so bound up with the English judicial and legal system that I would not agree with such a transfer. Another issue that will not be discussed at all by the commission—this is why it would have been useful for the House of Commons to discuss its terms of reference before we had the debate—is the way in which the Assembly is voted in. If there is going to be a reduction in the number of constituencies, presumably to 30, with a relationship between Parliament and the National Assembly, which is voted on, it is unusual that that issue should not be debated or discussed by the Silk commission, particularly as any decision on how we elect the Welsh Assembly should be based on a proper mandate at a general election. I hope that the Secretary of State and her Government will not even contemplate discussing those matters until after the next election.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

It is always a privilege and a challenge to follow the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). He put forward some considered and powerful arguments that I am sure the commission will read and take into account when they set out their programme for the work that they have to undertake.

As we look forward to Armistice day and remember the men and women who have made a sacrifice for this nation, we also remember the Welsh men and women who are currently serving in the British Army. Just today I had an e-mail from Brigadier Russ Wardle, who recently finished his tour of duty as brigadier of 160 (Wales) Brigade in Brecon. He told me that 40 servicemen are still in Baghdad performing important roles, training the Iraqi army and police in the duties they will take up shortly. I will meet the new brigadier, Brigadier Napier, shortly. I am so pleased the 160 (Wales) Brigade will stay in Wales, contrary to speculation just before the Welsh Assembly election.

I thank the Secretary of State for securing this important debate, which has already proved its worth. It is a great day for Wales. It is fantastic that there is cross-party consensus on the commission’s terms of reference to take a considered view on the funding and future of the Welsh Assembly. Liberal Democrats have consistently supported a commission to look at the funding arrangements between Westminster and Cardiff, and it is to the credit of the coalition Government that the Silk commission will go ahead after 13 years of Labour inaction on this crucial issue. Notably, the three promises on Wales made in the coalition agreement—the housing LCO, the further powers referendum and the commission—have now been met, and I commend the right hon. Lady for that. With good Conservative support, Liberal Democrat policies are helping the people of Wales.

[Paul Murphy]

The hon. Gentleman refers, rather provocatively for him, to Labour inaction and the fact that great events have taken place, but does he accept that it was a Labour Government who brought in devolution in the first place?

[Roger Williams]

I absolutely accept that and am sure that he would accept that Labour had the full support of the Liberal Democrats, including those in Wales. Indeed, my predecessor, Richard Livsey—sadly, deceased—played an important part in that and, I am sure, would have liked to play a part in the Silk commission, too.

That is not to say that the Secretary of State’s work is over; many other things need to be done for Wales, including nurturing and supporting the devolution settlement. I look forward to working closely with her in the near future.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend take some assurance, as I do, from the Secretary of State’s words on timetables? When questioned by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), she set out a range of timetabling scenarios, which was a relief to many of us. There is a hope and expectation that that can be achieved before the general election, but the fact that there is a timetable reassures those of us who were concerned about this being shoved into the long grass or into a cul-de-sac. The Government have proposed that as a real commitment.

[Roger Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which brings me to a point I had intended to make later. The present coalition agreement sets out the programme for the first half of this Parliament. Work now needs to be set in hand to take forward the coalition for the second half, which will obviously include proposals for Wales. When Wales said yes to having a Welsh Assembly in 1997, the devolution package was missing one critical element. The Welsh Government have the luxury of spending money handed out by others, but unlike those in Scotland and Northern Ireland they have no power to borrow or raise money; as has been suggested, they have fewer powers than local authorities. I believe that the lack of accountability has led to some irresponsibility in the Welsh Government’s spending of money. Indeed, when the Chief Secretary to the Treasury visited Wales in April he said that the commission

“will aim to develop the financial autonomy of the Welsh Government to give Wales more opportunity to create the right environment for encouraging growth”

and jobs. I thank him for his support. As a Scottish MP, he brought knowledge of the Calman commission to the proposals, whose usefulness should not be underestimated. Welsh Liberal Democrats will engage fully and constructively in this process. We will urge the commission to bring more accountability and responsibility to the Welsh Government and to give Wales further power to drive forward economic development, creating jobs and prosperity in Wales.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way in the midst already of several very good contributions, but will he clarify what he understands by “financial accountability”? We all understand it in broad terms, but will it be financial accountability with some additional tax-raising or tax-varying powers, or accountability from within a deficit that has been lopped off the block grant? Robbing Peter to pay Paul and then asking the Welsh Government to be accountable for money that the UK Government have taken away from them, and for which the Welsh Government are then able to raise taxes, does not seem like real accountability. I want to protect what is already in Wales, and if there is accountability let it be for additionality, not for something that has been taken away from Wales.

[Roger Williams]

I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s first point, but not his second. We would all like to see local authorities raising more of their spending power locally so that they become more accountable, and I believe that the situation would be the same for the Welsh Assembly Government, although I do not see any reduction in the spending proposed for them. I may come on to that later, however.

I thank also the Deputy Prime Minister for his work in broadening the commission’s terms of reference and composition. There were people who wanted a much smaller commission, of perhaps only three people and without political appointees, but I am glad that the consensus was for a much larger and broader one. The political appointees are a huge boost to the commission, and they bring vital political experience to its work.

I commend the choice of Paul Silk to chair the body. Paul has worked in this House, where he had a fine reputation, and in the Welsh Assembly, so he is perfectly placed to understand the workings of both. I cannot think of an individual who is better informed to carry out this important task, and I wish him well. I and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) went to the same school at the same time as Paul, so I can vouch for his high academic attainment.

Dyfrig John brings to the table 35 years of experience in financial services, and his financial know-how will be invaluable to the commission. He and I were members of the Development Board for Rural Wales, along with the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who was chairman at the time, and Dyfrig was instrumental in maintaining a banking presence in Llandrindod Wells, which on its own would be enough to recommend him for the job.

Professor Noel Lloyd is a distinguished academic from Aberystwyth university, and before he became its highly regarded vice-chancellor he was a practising mathematician, so his ability to do sums means that Wales will not fall into the same trap as Ireland, which underestimated its reserves by €3 billion, or Germany, which did so by €50 billion.

Rob Humphreys, the Liberal Democrat representative, has long been a champion of devolution. He was heavily involved in Swansea’s yes campaign in 1997; he served on the all Wales convention; and he was the Liberal Democrat representative on the yes campaign steering group in 2011. Rob’s leadership of the Open university gives him a knowledge and understanding of young people and adults, and he will bring real expertise to the commission.

I also pay tribute to Nick Bourne, who served the people of mid-Wales very well during his time as an Assembly Member. His commitment to Wales, all things Welsh and, particularly, the Welsh assembly made him an example to all political leaders in Wales—and I look forward to his memoirs.

It is also great to have the ministerial experience of Sue Essex. She became the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Public Services following the 2003 election, so she has first-hand experience of the financial arrangements between Cardiff and Westminster.

Last, but certainly not least, there is Dr ap Gwilym, whose performance against Paxman showed his commitment to, knowledge of and passion for devolution. It is a dedicated and highly talented team with a range of expertise.

It was almost inevitable that we would talk about the Barnett formula, because it is an essential part of delivering a prosperous Wales. I am disappointed that it is not included in the Silk commission’s remit, but I understand that the Welsh Assembly’s Labour First Minister was not keen that it should be included.

I understand that bilateral discussions are taking place between London and Cardiff, and they will include not only the Secretary of State, but the Treasury.

[Guto Bebb]

I was surprised by the comments of the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) when he said that the Silk commission’s lack of consideration of the Holtham report is an omission. I, too, have heard the First Minister state categorically that the Holtham report should be subject to bilateral discussion between the two Governments. Are we seeing a split in the Labour party’s approach to the issue?

[Roger Williams]

I am sure that if there is a split, my hon. Friend will comment on it later in the debate.

I understand that bilateral discussions will take place, but I ask for more openness and transparency in that dialogue, because other people can play an important part in that work.

We can learn lessons from the Calman commission, which concluded that the devolution settlement had established a Parliament in Scotland that could be held to account for spending choices, but that lacked accountability in raising revenue. It proposed a reduction in block grant funding from the UK Government to Scotland in exchange for power for the Scottish Parliament to raise its own taxes. The Scotland Bill implements the recommendations and creates a Scottish rate of income tax. That will apply alongside existing UK-wide income tax.

In Scotland, the lower, higher and top rates of income tax will be reduced by 10p. The Scottish Parliament will then make a tax decision to levy an additional rate, which may match rates elsewhere in the UK, or be higher or lower. That will replace the Scottish Parliament’s existing power to vary income tax in Scotland by 3p up or down. Such a change, implemented by a Liberal Democrat Secretary of State, gives Scotland more accountability for its spending, and can be only good for the country. I would be pleased if the Silk commission recommended something similar for Wales.

The Calman commission addressed the rebalancing of the boundaries between devolved and reserved policy matters. It recommended devolution of further powers, including administration of elections, licensing power in relation to misuse of drugs, power to set the drink-drive limit, and power to set the national speed limit. It recommended that some powers be retained by Westminster, including regulation of health professionals and corporate insolvency. Aggregates and air passenger duty are not being taken forward for various reasons.

Luckily, this debate includes hon. Members on both sides of the House with first-hand experience of the devolved Welsh Assembly. They include the hon. Members for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) and for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael). I look forward to their contributions, and have enjoyed some of those that have already been made. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) also has considerable knowledge of the matter, but because of his Government role, he will not be able to speak.

Although the new arrangement has been simplified since the referendum, a lot of relevant legislation is spread among many Acts of Parliament. The Government would provide a service if they introduced a consolidation Bill to simplify and make accessible those elements of law that have been devolved, or if there were a 180° turn so that legislation sets out matters that are reserved to Westminster, and all others are devolved, instead of having the present position of legislation setting out devolved matters, and everything else being reserved.

[Mr Mark Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, because there is confusion among the general public about which areas are devolved and which are reserved, as my hon. Friend will know from his constituents, and as I know from mine. We have an important duty to get the message of devolution out there to the general public. Does he hope, as I do, that the Silk commission will also reflect on that?

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Even politicians sometimes have a less than perfect grasp of which issues are reserved and which are devolved. More importantly, the legal profession finds it very expensive to maintain an up-to-date record, or database, of changes in legislation. If something could be done to simplify that, it would benefit not only the public but the legal profession and people who have to deal with the legislation.

With the commission due to publish in autumn 2012, that leaves two and half years for this Parliament to see the implementation of measures on the issues on which agreement can be achieved. Will the Minister ensure that the report on those issues is produced as quickly as possible?

This is a historic opportunity for Wales. Finally, 12 years after the Welsh Assembly was set up, we can give it the ability and financial responsibility to do that which it was set up to do. It is building a better Wales—a strong nation, firm within the United Kingdom, and active in the European Union and on the world stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for making that point, because her comments and those of other hon. Members could easily be misinterpreted if looked at briefly.

It seems clear that the current arrangements are not sustainable in the long term. The settlement between London and Cardiff is complicated, but that need not be a bad thing—sometimes complicated is good if the system works very well. The system does seem complicated but it is, thankfully, now much clearer than it was under the highly unsatisfactory legislative competence order system that we struggled with under the previous Government. The Under-Secretary was on the Welsh Affairs Committee with me and I am sure that he was tempted to jump to his feet when the housing LCO was mentioned. However, I shall not intrude into that particular piece of history.

[Roger Williams]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the system is not only complicated but is spread over a great body of law, making it very difficult to use that law for its proper purpose? Does he agree that the Silk commission could look at that as well?

[Hywel Williams]

There have been persistent complaints from members of the legal profession in Wales and others, including academic lawyers, who have looked at the changes to the body of law in Wales and found that it is difficult to keep track. There are people who are doing a heroic job of trying to keep track of the implications and I only wish that they were better resourced. Unsurprisingly, my opinion is that there should be a devolution of jurisdiction to Wales, which would make things rather clearer, but I shall say something about that later.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith]

I thank the Secretary of State for that clarification.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), a former Secretary of State for Wales, spoke with passion and conviction, standing up firmly for Wales and pointing out the deep mistrust of the current Government’s attitude to Wales, which is exemplified by the roughshod way in which Ministers are cutting the number of Welsh constituencies from 40 to 30. That fuels deep suspicions about what the Government’s motives are for setting up the Silk commission.

My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) stressed the need for a pragmatic approach that brings power nearer to the people but which does the best for the people of Wales. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) referred the Silk commission to his private Member’s Bills, the Bilingual Juries (Wales) Bill and the Jobcentre Plus (Wales) Bill. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), who had very little time, unfortunately, urged the Lib Dems to rebel on the constituency boundary issue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) stressed the importance of this Parliament in taking decisions for the whole UK and urged that we move forward wisely, cautiously and with careful consideration of the issues. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) pointed out the importance of the Calman commission and stressed the excellent credentials of its members, and his words have been echoed by many hon. Members.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb)—I am not sure whether he is listening—stressed the importance of accountability and talked about practicalities. He spoke of the importance of treating businesses across the whole UK equally, but he then talked about different national insurance rates, so I am not sure quite where he was coming from.

The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) talked about the need for stability and there being no further changes for a generation. He stressed the need for the Silk commission to consult effectively and to reach out to those who have not been effectively engaged before, pointing out concerns about the volatility of some taxes. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) reaffirmed her strong Unionist credentials and welcomed the commission, which she sees as an important step towards accountability.

My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) referred to the difficulties of having continual change and to the need to take a long-term view. He also stressed the need for economic stimulus, as set out in Labour’s five-point plan, and pointed out the measures that the Assembly Government are taking to implement elements of that in the areas for which they have responsibility, such as with the successor to the future jobs fund—the jobs growth fund—and with some investment in infrastructure, where they are able to do so.

The Opposition very much welcome the establishment of the Silk commission and the important tasks it has to do. Its first task is to review the case for the devolution of fiscal powers and to recommend ways in which the financial accountability of the Welsh Assembly could be improved. It will no doubt refer to the work done by the Holtham commission in its analysis of some of the possible ways of transferring revenue-raising mechanisms to Wales. It can examine the practicalities and the likely consequences of implementing any such measures. We should not underestimate the complexity of this issue or the dangers of people being, quite naturally, tempted to play the system by switching from one side of the border to the other. That issue has been mentioned by several hon. Members, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). Most importantly of all, the Silk commission will need to consult and take account of public opinion. It is vital that a move towards any change has the support and backing of the people of Wales.

We are disappointed that the Secretary of State has decided to make setting up the Silk commission a priority over tackling the challenge of delivering a fairer funding system for Wales—an issue that is specifically excluded from the commission’s remit. If her Government were really interested in delivering the best for the people of Wales, they would have made it a priority to introduce the so-called Barnett floor—a concept that was explored in the Holtham reports and adopted by Labour in our 2010 manifesto as the most practical and immediate step to protect funding to Wales.

[Roger Williams]

Does the hon. Lady agree that the floor has less applicability in these straitened economic times than it would if there were an expanding economy?

[Nia Griffith]

As the hon. Gentleman will have heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) explain, we are at a tipping point. Until now, the Barnett formula has served the people of Wales well, but from this year onwards the balance will tip slightly in the other direction. Putting a floor in would offer additional protection and would be a straightforward measure. It could be implemented with the agreement of the Treasury and without having to go into the difficulties of trying to work out a needs-based analysis, which is much more complex but is something that we might wish to see in the long term. So, as Holtham identified, the Barnett formula has served Wales well up to now, but if nothing is done it will begin to disadvantage Wales. The whole point of putting in the Barnett floor is to prevent that from happening and to protect funding. The Holtham commission recommended moving to a needs-based analysis, and it produced evidence of how a needs-based funding system could be made to work in a way that is fair to all parts of the United Kingdom. In its second report, it demonstrated that a needs-based funding formula that is fair to Wales would deliver £117 to Wales for every £100 that is spent in England on devolved activities. It recognised, too, that moving to a needs-based formula would take time but, in the meantime, the Barnett floor could protect Welsh funding. Instead of making that a priority, as it could be implemented quite easily, the Secretary of State has set up a commission that specifically will not consider the issue of funding reform.