Commons Chamber
09:34
09:34
Division
-
Division
are of that opinion say aye. of the contrary, no. no division. Clear The The question The question is, The question is, as The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that opinion, say I. I. Of the contrary, no. Tellers for the ayes. Linsey Farnsworth. Markus Campbell-Savours. Tellers for the noes. Jade Botterill and Claire
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Rebecca I I may I may do I may do that. I may do that. Kate Kate Osborne. Ben Ben Spencer. Order.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The ayes to the right one. The noes to the left. 36.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
noes to the left. 36. The ayes to the right were one. The nurse to the left were. 36 so the nurse have it. The nurse have the nurse have it. The nurse have the nurse have it. The nurse have it unlocked. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Heritage Public Houses Bill Second Reading. Mike Wood.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that opinion, say I. I. Of the contrary, no. Tellers for the ayes. Linsey Farnsworth. Markus Campbell-Savours. Tellers for the noes. Jade Botterill and Claire
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Rebecca I I may I may do I may do that. I may do that. Kate Kate Osborne. Ben Ben Spencer. Order.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The ayes to the right one. The noes to the left. 36.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
noes to the left. 36. The ayes to the right were one. The nurse to the left were. 36 so the nurse have it. The nurse have the nurse have it. The nurse have the nurse have it. The nurse have it unlocked. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Heritage Public Houses Bill Second Reading. Mike Wood.
09:47
Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)
-
-
Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I beg to move that the bill be now read a second time. It is a pleasure to propose this bill on a pleasure to propose this bill on a subject that not only matters deeply to my own constituency, but deeply to my own constituency, but is also dear to my own heart, and I know that for many colleagues escaping Westminster to head back to their constituencies is usually the highlight of the week. So to see hon. Members forgo a Friday in their home patches, to be here is deeply encouraging, and I thank all of those who have taken the time to attend today. As we've seen over the past few months, private members bills can come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Some are extremely contentious, others are narrow and technical. And so when I was fortunate enough to come third in the private member's bill ballot earlier this year, I was very briefly more popular than I can remember for some time, and I received all manner of helpful advice, as some suggested, I take on a grand, sweeping constitutional reform. Others suggested fixing something rather close to home and entirely uncontentious like dog grooming standards. But I decided I wanted a bill that could bring people together, and there's little, I think, that can bring more people together than the importance of our historic pubs. Now, as a past chairman of the all party parliamentary group on beer, I confess that over the years I have spent a little time inside our nation's public houses, conducting what I can only describe as exhaustive, selfless and entirely public spirited research. If not, you know it. If not a constitutional duty. But what? I take my beer seriously. I take the public the future of our historic pubs even more seriously. Because, Madam Deputy Speaker, behind the warmth, the conviviality and the familiar clinking of glasses lies the sobering reality. Today's debate is not about party politics. There is far more on this subject that unites us than divides us. But it is about whether this Parliament is willing to step in and stop the wanton destruction of our shared history. For centuries, the British pub has been the beating heart of our communities. They are the social glue that binds our villages, towns, cities and suburbs together. They are the places where friendships are forged, where birthdays are toasted, where wakes are held, where older, perhaps isolated residents find that it is often their only regular conversation of the week. Yet all too often, the planning system still treats these irreplaceable institutions as nothing more than convenient plots of land waiting to be cleared for speculative development. We cannot pretend this is an abstract, theoretical debate. We know the brutal reality because we saw it happen before our very own eyes in Himley, which I now have the honour of representing here in Parliament. Just over three years ago. An unbelievable act of destruction shocked my. The community and the wider black country and Staffordshire to its core. On the evening of 5th of August 2023, flames engulfed the crooked House. Built in 1765 as a farmhouse before becoming a pub. It had stood for over 250 years, rather longer than the present Palace of Westminster, in which we are debating today. Thanks to intense 19th century coal mining subsidence, the building settled at a bonkers 15 degree tilt that's three times the lean of the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It was world famous as Britain's Wonkiest pub. You could roll a coin uphill across the bar. Counter bottles appear to defy gravity. First time visitors would take one step inside and swear that the beer had gone straight to their heads. It was an extraordinary monument to the black country's industrial heritage. The fire was devastating enough, but what followed was an absolute outrage. Barely 48 hours later, before the ashes were were cold. Before investigators could properly inspect the scene, heavy diggers rolled onto the site in a matter of hours. More than two and a half centuries of history were flattened into a pile of crushed rubble without planning permission. The perpetrators thought they could crush a building fence off the land and wait for the world to move on. But they underestimated the local community. More than 40,000 people signed petitions demanding the crooked house be rebuilt. South Staffordshire Council moved swiftly to serve a binding enforcement notice, ordering the owners to rebuild it brick by brick. That that enforcement notice is currently being appealed. Staffordshire Police completed an exhaustive criminal investigation and the file now sits with the Crown Prosecution Service. And so the appeal against the enforcement notice cannot be heard until the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
criminal proceedings have been concluded, one way or another. Of course I will give way. My friend, my neighbour, the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My friend, my neighbour, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, and I remember in 2023 the outrage of communities all 2023 the outrage of communities all across the Black Country after that pub was demolished in the way he describes. I share his outrage describes. I share his outrage alongside the communities he he mentions there. I notice that the difficulties with the process of difficulties with the process of getting it rebuilt does. Does he have an estimate of when that fantastic heritage asset might be
**** Possible New Speaker ****
rebuilt? And when the community can see that crooked pub here again? Well, as I said, it all depends
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Well, as I said, it all depends on how long it takes the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether there is evidence to whether there is evidence to proceed. The last update I had from them was about six weeks ago, when they said they were still working they said they were still working on the file, but were unable to provide a time frame. But of course, provide a time frame. But of course, the community is impatient, and the longer that this drags on, the more cynical and frustrated people will be. And so whilst clearly the investigation cannot be rushed, we also cannot have any unnecessary delays. So I say today, as I've said from day one, that the local community is not going to let that go. That enforcement. Notice that the hon. Gentleman spoke, spoke of is legally binding and the crooked House must and will rise again from the ashes. Madam Deputy Speaker, as we pursue justice through the courts, we must ask ourselves the fundamental question how on earth did the system allow this to happen in the first place? Fighting drawn out legal battles after the wrecking ball has done its worst is nowhere near good enough. When an irreplaceable 18th century landmark is destroyed, no amount of enforcement notices can properly recreate the original historic fabric of a building that had grown organically. We have a duty to fix the law so that no other community is robbed of its heritage in this appalling manner. And that is why I've introduced this bill, backed by the Campaign for Real Ale and 145,000 members, as well as the Countryside Alliance and the Save the Crooked House campaign. Every single clause of this legislation is designed to close some of the legal loopholes that were so blatantly exposed in Himley. Had this bill been on the statute book in 2023? Crooked House may still be standing today because it would have intervened. It would have made a difference in four specific and possibly decisive ways. Firstly, it would put an end to secret sales in 2023. The local community had no idea that Marston's had put the crooked house on the market until contracts had already exchanged, sold off to buyers who clearly had no intention of running it as a pub by the community. By the time the community found out and tried to do something about it, it was already too late. So clauses 1 to 4 of my bill place a statutory duty on each local planning authority in England to compile and to maintain a register of heritage public houses covering venues that are at least 150 years old or possess recognised local heritage significance, including heritage interiors. Of course.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, the hon. Gentleman, for bringing this very interesting for bringing this very interesting bill. My understanding is that local planning authorities already have powers to create local lists for buildings of local historic for buildings of local historic importance, and these can include heritage pubs. I'm currently working to try and save one of our working to try and save one of our heritage pubs, The old Glen pub, and this has also been suggested to me as an avenue for saving it. Does me as an avenue for saving it. Does he agree that that provision is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
already there within current rules? No. That that provision is helpful but insufficient, partly helpful but insufficient, partly because it does rely on a proactive actions by the local authorities, actions by the local authorities, which are often only taken just as in the case of registering communities of assets of community communities of assets of community value, once there is a clear threat, by which time it may be too late, but also because those local listings do not offer the full protection that heritage pubs need. In particular, they they offer little to no protection for heritage interiors. Some of the. Some of the insides of pubs that that we see, particularly in the interwar and immediately after the Second World War, becoming rarer and rarer. Many of the things that people identify as being a typical British pubs being replaced by more, shall we say, generic dining layouts, but preserving those those features of local heritage are really important. But local listing does not typically help with that, nor does it offer the criminal penalties for the unlawful demolition that I think are the appropriate sanctions. So clause nine provides that the moment an owner intends to sell a registered pub, they must formally notify the council, which must in turn notify local members of Parliament, ward councillors and the public. So secret backroom deals behind closed room door, closed doors will become impossible. Secondly, the bill introduce a genuine community right to buy, extending the positive changes that the government introduced through the English Devolution Act. Because the sale of the crooked House was shrouded in secrecy, neither the community nor responsible pub operators had had any real opportunity to put together a viable bid to keep it trading before it was sold. So under clauses nine and ten during the first 12 months on the market, a registered heritage pub can only be sold if the buyer enters into a legally binding covenant, guaranteeing it operates as a pub, or if it is sold to a community group. Community buyers are granted up to 18 months to complete the purchase.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank you gentlemen for giving way. It's a very sensible suggestion, and I like his proposal suggestion, and I like his proposal that the public should be informed about the potential sale, or indeed any other potential changes that he any other potential changes that he has in the bill. How does he see that communication happening with the public so that those maybe who the public so that those maybe who are not on online or not on the internet are able to find out about it and can stand up for their pub.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
it and can stand up for their pub. Local representatives have an important role to play for this. We obviously do have established methods for communicating public notices, but I don't think anything will replace a good, well organised local campaign organised by either the local Member of Parliament or the local councillors engaging their local communities. So, crucially, adopting the framework of the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. If a community group cannot reach an agreement on price with the seller because they are demanding an unrealistic, exorbitant price, the price will be determined by an independent valuer. That means owners can no longer price out local people with inflated asking prices designed purely to force a dereliction narrative. Thirdly, the bill establishes immediate interim protection against demolition. When local residents discovered the crooked House had been sold, local council of Victoria Wilson moved with great speed to submit an application for statutory listing, but the pub was torched and bulldozed before that application could even be considered. So clauses 5 to 7 resolve this by adopting a proven system that has operated successfully in Wales for years. I understand it was the late. The Welsh Labour Government introduced this 20 years ago. Under my Bill, the moment an application to list a registered heritage pub is submitted, it automatically receives interim listed building status. It is treated in planning law as a listed building overnight, stopping bulldozers in their tracks, stopping the interiors being ripped
**** Possible New Speaker ****
out while the experts do their work. Please thank the hon. Member for giving way and pay tribute to his campaigning on On the Crooked House. I wonder if he could elaborate on how he sees this system interacting how he sees this system interacting with the asset of community value option. I have a local campaign group who have put a pub under an asset of community value. It bought them some time. Of course, they still have to raise the money for a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
still have to raise the money for a bid. I'm just curious whether he's explored that option to. Yes. And the provisions in this bill are very much designed to complement or work alongside the measures in the Localism Act. I was proud that the. It was then, of course, the coalition government had introduced the. The system of assets of community value in the Localism Act 2011. But this government extended some of those provisions in its English Devolution Act, and this won't replace or supplant any of those. But what it does do is recognise that, as I've said, communities have that power, but will generally only go through what is still not an easy process to navigate, will only do that when there is a clear and direct threat that they are aware of. By which time, as we saw with the crooked House, it was far too late for that to matter. So this extends some of those provisions to to cover all of those heritage pubs on the Heritage Pub register. So clause eight includes a fair compensation mechanism for owners if listing is ultimately refused, ensuring proper balance and property safeguards. Again, copying the system that had been introduced in Wales. Finally, clause 11 kills speculative development at source. It creates a strict presumption against granting planning permission for change of use of any registered pub. Now, clearly, the National Planning Policy Framework has set. Ha has raised the bar for change. Change of use for heritage buildings and for many pubs. But I think having the protection in primary legislation where it is clear on the face of the Act of Parliament will be more effective. I think we have all seen cases where our our own local councils, planning authorities have looked at some of the provisions of the Nppf that we thought were safeguards, perhaps against inappropriate development, and decided that actually that safeguard wasn't as strong as we imagined or that we think was intended when it was introduced. This overcomes that by putting the presumption into primary legislation. So permission cannot be granted unless the owner can prove that the property has been marketed at an independent fair price, and no pub operator or community bid has emerged. So if the bias of the crooked House had known, they could never convert the site into an alternative development or Waste Depot, I don't think they would have touched it and it would have remained in hands
**** Possible New Speaker ****
dedicated to pulling pints. There is no time. He's being very generous with his interventions. I do appreciate that. And I, I thank him for recognising the positive changes the National Policy Planning the National Policy Planning Framework has made to the heritage pubs standards and the way they're able to stay open. But before he finalises, I wonder if he considered upwards rent reviews, considered upwards rent reviews, which are where landlords potentially of heritage pubs and other pubs are only able to increase rents even if market conditions make it more difficult for pubs, which which puts a real financial pressure on the managers and operators of pubs. Is that considered anywhere in this bill, or is that something that he's he's
**** Possible New Speaker ****
considered. I that's not directly part of this bill, but it does, of course, this bill, but it does, of course, it's an issue that that affects a it's an issue that that affects a large number of tenanted pubs across the country, whether heritage or more modern. And it's certainly something that the pub code adjudicator needs to look at. And I think if the government may And I think if the government may wish to, at the next review of the pub Code, consider whether that needs needs to change. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the hon. Gentleman may have been slightly optimistic in suggesting I was drawing to a close, but just turning briefly to the Treasury bench and to the Minister. I know how the machinery of government works. I know that somewhere in the departmental briefcase today, there is a neatly typed briefing folder with the word resist stamped across the top. Civil servants and officials are famously ingenious at finding 27 procedural reasons why a sensible idea cannot possibly be enacted on a Friday from a private member's bill that they didn't think of. They will agonise over definitions. They will claim existing powers are entirely sufficient, even when the rubble of our heritage proves that they simply are not. So I say to the Minister, who I know cares deeply about this issue in all sincerity. You do not need to resist this bill. This issue should be above the narrow party divides. So I make a, if you like, and I don't want to panic our colleagues on the Liberal Democrat benches, but I'll make a open, unreserved offer to the government and to colleagues on all sides. You may even call it comprehensive. Vote for Second Reading today, and let us work collaboratively ahead of Bill Committee. If hon. Members across this House agree on the central premise that our historic pubs are precious, that there are gaps in the current protections and that we should act to close those gaps before even more valued heritage pubs are lost forever, then the right and proper course today is to grant this bill a Second Reading and then work with me to make this the best bill that it can be. Second Reading is the debate on the principle of the bill. The detailed scrutiny belongs in committee, and let us be entirely realistic about the parliamentary arithmetic. Under the Standing orders, the government will have a clear 11 to 6 majority on the public Bill committee. They will have complete control. If Ministers feel certain definitions in clause 12 need refinement. If the timelines in clause nine need tweaking, or if the council duties in clause one need streamlining, the government has the votes to agree those amendments with ease. So I stand ready to work with the Minister line by line, clause by clause, to agree amendments that give the government the comfort it needs while giving our heritage pubs the protection the public demands. What we cannot do, what our constituents will not forgive us for doing, is walking away, hiding behind procedural excuses and leaving the door wide open for the next historic pub to be bulldozed on a Sunday night. Nothing we do today can undo the heartbreak felt across my constituency and the wider region when the crooked House fell. But by passing this bill, we can ensure that its enduring legacy is a legal shield that protects every beloved historic pub across England for generations to come.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The question is that the Bill be now read a second time I call Adam Jogee.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Jogee. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I feel like I've just won the pub quiz being called first. Thank you very much indeed. Christmas has very much indeed. Christmas has come early. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in the Second opportunity to speak in the Second Reading debate on the Heritage Public Houses Bill. But before I do, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd just like to say the name Donna Ann Reas.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
criminal proceedings have been concluded, one way or another. Of course I will give way. My friend, my neighbour, the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My friend, my neighbour, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, and I remember in 2023 the outrage of communities all 2023 the outrage of communities all across the Black Country after that pub was demolished in the way he describes. I share his outrage describes. I share his outrage alongside the communities he he mentions there. I notice that the difficulties with the process of difficulties with the process of getting it rebuilt does. Does he have an estimate of when that fantastic heritage asset might be
**** Possible New Speaker ****
rebuilt? And when the community can see that crooked pub here again? Well, as I said, it all depends
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Well, as I said, it all depends on how long it takes the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether there is evidence to whether there is evidence to proceed. The last update I had from them was about six weeks ago, when they said they were still working they said they were still working on the file, but were unable to provide a time frame. But of course, provide a time frame. But of course, the community is impatient, and the longer that this drags on, the more cynical and frustrated people will be. And so whilst clearly the investigation cannot be rushed, we also cannot have any unnecessary delays. So I say today, as I've said from day one, that the local community is not going to let that go. That enforcement. Notice that the hon. Gentleman spoke, spoke of is legally binding and the crooked House must and will rise again from the ashes. Madam Deputy Speaker, as we pursue justice through the courts, we must ask ourselves the fundamental question how on earth did the system allow this to happen in the first place? Fighting drawn out legal battles after the wrecking ball has done its worst is nowhere near good enough. When an irreplaceable 18th century landmark is destroyed, no amount of enforcement notices can properly recreate the original historic fabric of a building that had grown organically. We have a duty to fix the law so that no other community is robbed of its heritage in this appalling manner. And that is why I've introduced this bill, backed by the Campaign for Real Ale and 145,000 members, as well as the Countryside Alliance and the Save the Crooked House campaign. Every single clause of this legislation is designed to close some of the legal loopholes that were so blatantly exposed in Himley. Had this bill been on the statute book in 2023? Crooked House may still be standing today because it would have intervened. It would have made a difference in four specific and possibly decisive ways. Firstly, it would put an end to secret sales in 2023. The local community had no idea that Marston's had put the crooked house on the market until contracts had already exchanged, sold off to buyers who clearly had no intention of running it as a pub by the community. By the time the community found out and tried to do something about it, it was already too late. So clauses 1 to 4 of my bill place a statutory duty on each local planning authority in England to compile and to maintain a register of heritage public houses covering venues that are at least 150 years old or possess recognised local heritage significance, including heritage interiors. Of course.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, the hon. Gentleman, for bringing this very interesting for bringing this very interesting bill. My understanding is that local planning authorities already have powers to create local lists for buildings of local historic for buildings of local historic importance, and these can include heritage pubs. I'm currently working to try and save one of our working to try and save one of our heritage pubs, The old Glen pub, and this has also been suggested to me as an avenue for saving it. Does me as an avenue for saving it. Does he agree that that provision is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
already there within current rules? No. That that provision is helpful but insufficient, partly helpful but insufficient, partly because it does rely on a proactive actions by the local authorities, actions by the local authorities, which are often only taken just as in the case of registering communities of assets of community communities of assets of community value, once there is a clear threat, by which time it may be too late, but also because those local listings do not offer the full protection that heritage pubs need. In particular, they they offer little to no protection for heritage interiors. Some of the. Some of the insides of pubs that that we see, particularly in the interwar and immediately after the Second World War, becoming rarer and rarer. Many of the things that people identify as being a typical British pubs being replaced by more, shall we say, generic dining layouts, but preserving those those features of local heritage are really important. But local listing does not typically help with that, nor does it offer the criminal penalties for the unlawful demolition that I think are the appropriate sanctions. So clause nine provides that the moment an owner intends to sell a registered pub, they must formally notify the council, which must in turn notify local members of Parliament, ward councillors and the public. So secret backroom deals behind closed room door, closed doors will become impossible. Secondly, the bill introduce a genuine community right to buy, extending the positive changes that the government introduced through the English Devolution Act. Because the sale of the crooked House was shrouded in secrecy, neither the community nor responsible pub operators had had any real opportunity to put together a viable bid to keep it trading before it was sold. So under clauses nine and ten during the first 12 months on the market, a registered heritage pub can only be sold if the buyer enters into a legally binding covenant, guaranteeing it operates as a pub, or if it is sold to a community group. Community buyers are granted up to 18 months to complete the purchase.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank you gentlemen for giving way. It's a very sensible suggestion, and I like his proposal suggestion, and I like his proposal that the public should be informed about the potential sale, or indeed any other potential changes that he any other potential changes that he has in the bill. How does he see that communication happening with the public so that those maybe who the public so that those maybe who are not on online or not on the internet are able to find out about it and can stand up for their pub.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
it and can stand up for their pub. Local representatives have an important role to play for this. We obviously do have established methods for communicating public notices, but I don't think anything will replace a good, well organised local campaign organised by either the local Member of Parliament or the local councillors engaging their local communities. So, crucially, adopting the framework of the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. If a community group cannot reach an agreement on price with the seller because they are demanding an unrealistic, exorbitant price, the price will be determined by an independent valuer. That means owners can no longer price out local people with inflated asking prices designed purely to force a dereliction narrative. Thirdly, the bill establishes immediate interim protection against demolition. When local residents discovered the crooked House had been sold, local council of Victoria Wilson moved with great speed to submit an application for statutory listing, but the pub was torched and bulldozed before that application could even be considered. So clauses 5 to 7 resolve this by adopting a proven system that has operated successfully in Wales for years. I understand it was the late. The Welsh Labour Government introduced this 20 years ago. Under my Bill, the moment an application to list a registered heritage pub is submitted, it automatically receives interim listed building status. It is treated in planning law as a listed building overnight, stopping bulldozers in their tracks, stopping the interiors being ripped
**** Possible New Speaker ****
out while the experts do their work. Please thank the hon. Member for giving way and pay tribute to his campaigning on On the Crooked House. I wonder if he could elaborate on how he sees this system interacting how he sees this system interacting with the asset of community value option. I have a local campaign group who have put a pub under an asset of community value. It bought them some time. Of course, they still have to raise the money for a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
still have to raise the money for a bid. I'm just curious whether he's explored that option to. Yes. And the provisions in this bill are very much designed to complement or work alongside the measures in the Localism Act. I was proud that the. It was then, of course, the coalition government had introduced the. The system of assets of community value in the Localism Act 2011. But this government extended some of those provisions in its English Devolution Act, and this won't replace or supplant any of those. But what it does do is recognise that, as I've said, communities have that power, but will generally only go through what is still not an easy process to navigate, will only do that when there is a clear and direct threat that they are aware of. By which time, as we saw with the crooked House, it was far too late for that to matter. So this extends some of those provisions to to cover all of those heritage pubs on the Heritage Pub register. So clause eight includes a fair compensation mechanism for owners if listing is ultimately refused, ensuring proper balance and property safeguards. Again, copying the system that had been introduced in Wales. Finally, clause 11 kills speculative development at source. It creates a strict presumption against granting planning permission for change of use of any registered pub. Now, clearly, the National Planning Policy Framework has set. Ha has raised the bar for change. Change of use for heritage buildings and for many pubs. But I think having the protection in primary legislation where it is clear on the face of the Act of Parliament will be more effective. I think we have all seen cases where our our own local councils, planning authorities have looked at some of the provisions of the Nppf that we thought were safeguards, perhaps against inappropriate development, and decided that actually that safeguard wasn't as strong as we imagined or that we think was intended when it was introduced. This overcomes that by putting the presumption into primary legislation. So permission cannot be granted unless the owner can prove that the property has been marketed at an independent fair price, and no pub operator or community bid has emerged. So if the bias of the crooked House had known, they could never convert the site into an alternative development or Waste Depot, I don't think they would have touched it and it would have remained in hands
**** Possible New Speaker ****
dedicated to pulling pints. There is no time. He's being very generous with his interventions. I do appreciate that. And I, I thank him for recognising the positive changes the National Policy Planning the National Policy Planning Framework has made to the heritage pubs standards and the way they're able to stay open. But before he finalises, I wonder if he considered upwards rent reviews, considered upwards rent reviews, which are where landlords potentially of heritage pubs and other pubs are only able to increase rents even if market conditions make it more difficult for pubs, which which puts a real financial pressure on the managers and operators of pubs. Is that considered anywhere in this bill, or is that something that he's he's
**** Possible New Speaker ****
considered. I that's not directly part of this bill, but it does, of course, this bill, but it does, of course, it's an issue that that affects a it's an issue that that affects a large number of tenanted pubs across the country, whether heritage or more modern. And it's certainly something that the pub code adjudicator needs to look at. And I think if the government may And I think if the government may wish to, at the next review of the pub Code, consider whether that needs needs to change. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the hon. Gentleman may have been slightly optimistic in suggesting I was drawing to a close, but just turning briefly to the Treasury bench and to the Minister. I know how the machinery of government works. I know that somewhere in the departmental briefcase today, there is a neatly typed briefing folder with the word resist stamped across the top. Civil servants and officials are famously ingenious at finding 27 procedural reasons why a sensible idea cannot possibly be enacted on a Friday from a private member's bill that they didn't think of. They will agonise over definitions. They will claim existing powers are entirely sufficient, even when the rubble of our heritage proves that they simply are not. So I say to the Minister, who I know cares deeply about this issue in all sincerity. You do not need to resist this bill. This issue should be above the narrow party divides. So I make a, if you like, and I don't want to panic our colleagues on the Liberal Democrat benches, but I'll make a open, unreserved offer to the government and to colleagues on all sides. You may even call it comprehensive. Vote for Second Reading today, and let us work collaboratively ahead of Bill Committee. If hon. Members across this House agree on the central premise that our historic pubs are precious, that there are gaps in the current protections and that we should act to close those gaps before even more valued heritage pubs are lost forever, then the right and proper course today is to grant this bill a Second Reading and then work with me to make this the best bill that it can be. Second Reading is the debate on the principle of the bill. The detailed scrutiny belongs in committee, and let us be entirely realistic about the parliamentary arithmetic. Under the Standing orders, the government will have a clear 11 to 6 majority on the public Bill committee. They will have complete control. If Ministers feel certain definitions in clause 12 need refinement. If the timelines in clause nine need tweaking, or if the council duties in clause one need streamlining, the government has the votes to agree those amendments with ease. So I stand ready to work with the Minister line by line, clause by clause, to agree amendments that give the government the comfort it needs while giving our heritage pubs the protection the public demands. What we cannot do, what our constituents will not forgive us for doing, is walking away, hiding behind procedural excuses and leaving the door wide open for the next historic pub to be bulldozed on a Sunday night. Nothing we do today can undo the heartbreak felt across my constituency and the wider region when the crooked House fell. But by passing this bill, we can ensure that its enduring legacy is a legal shield that protects every beloved historic pub across England for generations to come.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The question is that the Bill be now read a second time I call Adam Jogee.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Jogee. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I feel like I've just won the pub quiz being called first. Thank you very much indeed. Christmas has very much indeed. Christmas has come early. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in the Second opportunity to speak in the Second Reading debate on the Heritage Public Houses Bill. But before I do, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd just like to say the name Donna Ann Reas.
10:09
Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
-
-
Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
to say the name Donna Ann Reas. Donna was 38 and a constituent of mine, and sadly, Staffordshire Police have now launched a murder investigation after she was found dead at a property in Clayton in my constituency on Monday. This week an investigation is underway and so we have to be very careful, of course, what we say. But let me say this every woman in our country and across the world deserve to live freely and safely from the effects of male violence, and I'll do whatever I can to make sure that happens in Newcastle-under-Lyme. And I thank the emergency services for their diligence and pray that justice will be done. And of course, I also extend my condolences to Donna's family and friends who are grieving at this time. And I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley will no doubt call on his name next March for International Women's Day, but I thought it was important that I did so today here. And thank you for your indulgence to speak to the bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, who doesn't like a visit to the pub for cold refreshment of all kinds, I. I one warm, warm, warm, warm beer. I don't know what happens in Kensington, Madam Deputy Speaker, but we like a cold refreshment to Newcastle-under-Lyme I love I. I love visiting and supporting the many excellent pubs in Newcastle and our surrounding communities in North Staffordshire and South Cheshire. And with that in mind, I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, my county colleague, for bringing the bill to the House today, and I'm also very pleased to see my hon. Friend, my hon. Friend the Minister in her place, old and length of friendship. Not an age, of course. Just for clarity, Madam Deputy Speaker, although I shall never accept an invitation to come and see us in Newcastle-under-Lyme, all of us will know, with our own communities in mind how important our local pubs are to knitting our community together, to boosting our local economies and to, importantly, making the very best of the hard work of Britain's farmers and their produce. Newcastle-under-Lyme is home to a number of historic pubs Madam Deputy Speaker all worthy of a visit, all welcoming to old and new, and all with a strong recommendation from their Member of Parliament in the House today. Take the old Brown Jug down on Bridge Street, the scene of many a gig played by my late uncle Colin Cooper and his band Climax Blues Band through the 60s and 70s a fabulous building and dates back to the mid 19th century. And I should declare an interest, Madam Speaker, in that the jug felt like my unofficial office during the election campaign to be Labour's candidate in Newcastle. Lyme, I'll happily give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Rightly highlights the pubs. Are actually a. Venue for history.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Venue for history. Historic music. And does he not think that actually this bill is rather limited in describing heritage as simply around the heritage as simply around the building, when sometimes it's the events in the building that also are deserving of heritage. And think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he's got any more to say about the history of that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
about the history of that particular venue he highlighted. My hon. Friend, as ever, gives me or makes an important intervention. We all know how soulful and tuneful she is, so I'm not surprised that she sought to intervene on the point. The point of music? Certainly not heritage, Madam Speaker, but I think she's right. And The Brown Jug didn't just play host to my Uncle Colin and Climax Blues Band. It's played host to many a small gig, many a local band, many young person who is almost as soulful and tuneful as the hon. Lady. And I feel sure they will continue to be play host to others in the future.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My friend. Give way on some of the. Points I will happily give way to my friend from Shipley.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to my friend from Shipley. So talking about cultural heritage, one of the pubs in my constituency now known as The constituency now known as The Woolpack in Esholt, was the the pub Woolpack in Esholt, was the the pub for the filming of Emmerdale. Any fans of Emmerdale here in the house? fans of Emmerdale here in the house? And so whilst the building itself may not have huge heritage value as a building, as the hon. Lady was making the point, it has huge cultural heritage value and so does he further agree with me that we need to capture these wider cultural heritage aspects, as the Woolpack in Esholt has for TV fans.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Madam Speaker. Grateful to my friend from Shipley for her intervention. I'm not sure what it says about me that not sure what it says about me that the minute she said The Woolpack, I knew exactly that she was talking about Emmerdale. Madam Deputy Speaker, I suppose my constituency, Speaker, I suppose my constituency, the Rovers return and Coronation Street would be a bit closer to Street would be a bit closer to home. But she's right. And the interesting thing that she points out there is that there is so much of our cultural identity, our heritage, our history that pubs have played a role in, and making sure that we are as comprehensive in our assessment and support is important to go back to my ultimately thankfully successful election campaign to be Labour's candidate, Madam Deputy Speaker in Newcastle. I'm in many. In many ways it was the jug what won it. We also have the ale House won by Graham Newbury, also on Bridge Street, that they have an Ace Irish Music night on a Monday evening, a great quiz and a Tuesday and good vibes all through the week. Madam Deputy Speaker and I'm grateful to Graham for all he does to keep our town in the minds of local people, looking for good time, for being a destination that people want to visit, and for holding my feet to the fire, as a rule, and what feels like every day we have Madam Deputy Speaker, the Museum pub on George Street. It's a small and mighty tribute to the history of our community and is on the road to our southern border with our neighbours in the city of Stoke on Trent and lastly, the Old Bull's Head Inn. It's just up from my office. It's the oldest pub in Newcastle town centre and dates from the 14th century, and only the old bull's head is a listed building. Sadly, none of the pubs that I've just described and mentioned and recommended in the strongest terms to the house appear to be included on the list of assets of community value. It puts these key parts of our heritage at risk of owners moving on, the selling of local landmarks to developers or other businesses, and the sources of real community spirit being lost forever. And so we cannot take risks or let that happen. By default, we must fill in the gaps to keep pubs from being sold off and demolished. And like many in my community, and I suspect colleagues in their own communities and their own pubs would be devastated to see any of our public houses forced out of business, and the hard working staff who work in them out of work, and I'm sure all colleagues across the House would agree on that. Our pubs, old and new, are places to learn, to enjoy, to understand, to share, to laugh, to celebrate, to console, to make memories. Madam Deputy Speaker and sometimes, I suspect, to make mistakes to and over recess. We were campaigning hard in the Newcastle town by election. Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm delighted that Labour's candidate, now Councillor Andy Stuart, gained the seat for the Labour Party on an 18% swing. To us, the benefit of the by election taking place in our town centre meant that we were close to many of our excellent heritage pubs and watering holes for the post, canvass, catch up or the note taking of the casework that me and my team had to go on and get on with. Now, more than one occasion, we were in one of our historic pubs and enjoyed every moment of it. And that election day Madam Deputy Speaker October the 8th 26, 2026, we saw my two Labour predecessors, Baroness Golding, who's a member in the other place, and Paul Foley out campaigning with us and also enjoying full time sake at once. Some of our old heritage pubs. Staffordshire Madam Deputy Speaker for my community in the North on the Cheshire and Shropshire borders, to the hon. Gentleman in the south, on the fringes of the West Midlands Combined Authority, is home to great people. We have a responsibility to protect and preserve the places that people want to go, to spend time with others because of the real and meaningful community spirit they find. Madam Deputy Speaker, everything is relative and there are many pubs that will appear to be historic to an 18 year old today, but may feel less so to someone at the other age of the other end of the age scale. And so with that in mind, and with thought of the principles of the Bill and the importance of heritage public houses in my community and up and down the country. And I'm sure, too, in Bradford, I'd like to touch a number of the other excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme whilst I have the floor. Madam Deputy Speaker One of the greats is mallards in our town centre, and I would like to give a shout out to them and extend my congratulations to all the team there. They've just been named the Pub Beer and Ale Venue of the year at the love Newcastle-under-Lyme Awards that was held at Saint Giles Church just last Friday. Mrs. Joey and I were there and enjoyed it immensely. It was actually amazing to see an old church. I think it was 1873, if not earlier, that it was built, giving a host to a awards night. We were sitting in the pews. There were lots of jokes, as you can imagine, and I think some people who probably would have enjoyed being able to have a pint while sitting in the pew on a Sunday morning. But we'll see whether Reverend Josh allows that to happen. Madam Deputy Speaker And so I am delighted to have the opportunity to acknowledge the hard work by all the team at mallards for getting the recognition that they deserve. my.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I can raise him on the beer and churches connection. This was in part actually heritage of some of part actually heritage of some of the religious orders in our country, but in Hackney the Hackney church has a brewery and a bar that it has a brewery and a bar that it runs as part of its mission in the wider communities, and I think it wider communities, and I think it really. And and underlines how historic institutions can come together. And that's also part of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
together. And that's also part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. My hon. Friend is completely correct on my father, if he were here, would share stories of the Jesuits who taught him when he was at school and how they certainly enjoyed some of those different organisations and institutions coming together. And yes, I'll probably leave that there, I think. But the but she's right. There is. And actually, you also see in communities up and down the country, former churches becoming pubs, former churches becoming homes and the rest. So there's a whole interconnected relationship there and doing whatever we can to hold on to that heritage, to celebrate the heritage and to talk about. It is important, even if some parts of the country wouldn't be as jazzy as Hackney South and Shoreditch may be, it's hard to compete. Well, we'll have to divide on that later. Madam Deputy Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I'll happily give way to my friend from Adam. Thank you. For giving me. Does he agree
**** Possible New Speaker ****
For giving me. Does he agree with me that it's not just churches that can turn into pubs in the future? For example, I'm reminded future? For example, I'm reminded of the Tolbooth Tavern on the Canongate in the Royal Mile in my constituency, which at one point previously had been a centre for local government, then became a prison and is now a pub. Does my prison and is now a pub. Does my hon. Friend agree that somewhere that can combine government, politicians, alcohol and a prison politicians, alcohol and a prison is maybe a good idea for the future?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My my hon. Friend makes a very interesting intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker, and he's the also the Member of Parliament for the Edinburgh Festival, where my wife and I and some of my cousins were earlier this year. First time we've earlier this year. First time we've been both of us having lived in Edinburgh except for at times. Madam Speaker, before my wife got Madam Speaker, before my wife got stuck with me and we saw. I'm not sure if we went to the pub that hon. Friend references, but we went hon. Friend references, but we went to many places during that that few days in Edinburgh. And so I will resist the temptation to talk about prison. I think that's a dangerous road to go down, but I think there's certainly a benefit to. Socialising people coming together at the heart of our politics. Obviously not everybody drinks alcohol, but that doesn't mean you can't benefit from being treated in the community spirit that underpins and drives most of the, if not all, of the pubs and communities up and down our United Kingdom. And whenever I hear my colleagues from Scotland speak, it just makes me think of better together. And my hon. Friend made an excellent intervention that speaks to the strength of our United Kingdom. Yeah. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me go back to Melody in Newcastle under Lyme. We'll come down from Scotland and up from Hackney and the melody sees people of all ages from far and wide coming for Alan's quiz KWIZ held every Thursday at keeping our good old fashioned pub traditions alive and providing an opportunity and a chance for Melody's faithful regulars to have a midweek catch up and importantly, to learn too. And when I was there a couple of weeks ago, back on quiz night KWIZ, that is one of the answers involved. My right hon. Friend or our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Another reference to the right hon. Lady, the Leader of the Opposition, Alan, just gave me a knowing smile. Madam Speaker, as I've said in the House before, soon after my election to this place, I launched my very own Newcastle-under-Lyme Best Pub competition and it was a very timely and enjoyable opportunity to visit, celebrate and enjoy the pubs in our community and each time we've done it, there have been nominations flying in from every corner of our constituency, and it's always fantastic to hear about all the different things that local people, our community love about our pubs. And in the end, last year it was the Little Vic on King Street, conscious that we have to be careful about our own security. But that would be where? Well, yeah, that's our local, an excellent place and I'm often given casework when you're in there. They topped the poll amongst my constituents, and I want to put on record, particularly a big thanks to Sophie, who not that long ago was doing some charity fundraising, which involved, you know, the cream on the pretty weak and useless paper plates that get thrown in your face. There's a I can't remember the you know what I mean? I think colleagues, the custard pies. There you go. Morecambe knows what we're talking about. Madam Deputy Speaker. And and she went through the probably the embarrassment of having to be have a custard thingies thrown at her but it was a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
on custard pies. Well, well here custard pies. A great example of a. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Madam Speaker. The hon. Member is making a very
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The hon. Member is making a very long speech which is ranging widely. I slightly lost the thread. If this private member's bill were to go to private member's bill were to go to a vote, would he be voting for it or against it or abstain? Hon. or against it or abstain? Hon. Gentleman, for his intervention, he talked about custard pies. That was very watery custard intervention, if I may say. We like we like full throated creamy custard here, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, I'll come to if the hon. Gentleman, I mean, he said, I've spoken too long. I haven't spoken long enough, Madam Deputy Speaker. And you you gave me a Christmas come early present by calling me first, and so I shall use the opportunity that was being provided to me by you and by my constituents for sending me here. So the hon. Gentleman just sits back, relaxes a little bit longer, and he will hear, Madam Speaker, a little bit more about what I think and how I think we should proceed, whether we agree may be a different matter, but he will enjoy it, I am sure. Nonetheless, madam Deputy, Madam Deputy Speaker, our pubs play an important role in our international relations, and the Member for Spelthorne is now a shadow Foreign Office Minister, so I hope he will be listening to this part of my speech with the attention he is known for. Madam Speaker, on Australia Day 2025, alongside members of Silverdale Parish Council, I welcome the then Australian High Commissioner, the Honourable Stephen Smith, to the Bush Inn in Silverdale and, as the House will know, because I suspect, like the hon. Member for Spelthorne, they all pay attention to everything I say in this house. Our town was the birthplace of the sixth Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Cook, and when cook returned to the United Kingdom as Australia's High Commissioner here in the 1920s, he celebrated in the very same pub we took Mr. Smith to, and my team and I and many other local people, not least the parish council, have traced Cook's local story. His father, unsurprisingly, was a miner down the pit and we raised a toast to his legacy. The only problem with cook is, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that he starts off in the Labour Party and landed up a Tory. But nobody is beyond redemption. Another much loved pub is the Gresley Arms and also savings Bank, known for having the best views in Staffordshire, the Fantastic beer garden is an excellent way to spend a summer evening or as a micro used to a final stop after a long day of pounding the pavements. As we get to enjoy one of our heritage public houses. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Albert first opened as a beer house in 1861. I hope this is enough heritage for the hon. Member for Spelthorne, now won by. Emma, is a great community pub. In fact, I took another Australian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom, the Honourable George Brandis, there on his visit to Newcastle. Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to taking you to both when you come and see us to. It's just another example of how our pubs play such an important role in all that we do. And I should also say that the. The Secretary of my constituency Labour Party, Alderman Sylvia Butler, is a very loyal and devoted champion of the Albert Pub and long may that continue. There are just so many pubs that mean so much to our community and I would happily spend all day speaking about all the Madam Deputy Speaker, but I don't want to upset any more. The hon. Member for Spelthorne, but I would welcome all of my colleagues and all parties coming to join us for a pint back home in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Newcastle. Madam Speaker, it could be said online it could be anything else, whether it's the Artery Wall, Stanton, the Westbury Tavern. Or my hon. Friend.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Or my hon. Friend. I will happily give way to my West Midlands speech. And he's talked about the many excellent beers that are available excellent beers that are available in his constituency. Did he know? Elsewhere in the West Midlands you can find fantastic cider in can find fantastic cider in Roberto's, which is a micropub right in the heart of Halesowen. And can he talk about the other options of alcohol that are options of alcohol that are available, not just in heritage pubs, but in pubs all across the country, and how it is quite a surprise that the third best cider
**** Possible New Speaker ****
pub in the country is found in Halesowen. I'm enjoying this, Madam Speaker,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm enjoying this, Madam Speaker, as I think it's been said by others before. My hon. Friend makes a very before. My hon. Friend makes a very important intervention. And he's right, you can get all manner of refreshment at Heritage Public refreshment at Heritage Public House, Madam Deputy Speaker and all parts of the country. I'm not sure what refreshment you choose if you're having some of the Spelthorne watery custard. Madam Deputy Speaker but certainly you can get a good cold pint. You could get a bit of lemon, which I know the the the former Prime Minister, Mrs. Thatcher ordered when she was at the Rovers return. We talked about Emmerdale. My friend from Shipley is gone, but when I remember a clip of Baroness Thatcher at the Rovers return, she ordered a bitter lemon. And that's just one example of the things you could drink there. I mean, my observation of Mrs. Thatcher doesn't go much further than that. I saw that quizzical look from my friend from Morecambe. Don't worry. But there is certainly there is certainly a range of things, and I think that speaks to. And I'd be surprised, actually, that the Conservative Party wouldn't want to take a moment talking about this because they believe in choice or supposedly. And the great thing about our heritage is not only are there so many up and down the country, you could choose to go to when you get there, the choices are infinite and I look forward to. I'm Not apply to fund myself, Madam Speaker, but I wish cider drinkers and Halesowen and other parts of the West Midlands very well indeed. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me just take us back to the Archer and Wolstanton, the Westbury Tavern, the Swan and Betley, the Boughton horses, the Sneyd Arms on Highland. The list on and on, as. Unfortunately for the Member for Spelthorne, my speeches doing so this morning, Madam Deputy Speaker, but at the end of the day, our pubs are about so much more than somewhere to have a pint, a cup of coke, a juice. And there are very many options that my hon. Friend from Halesowen allowed me to reference this morning. They provide an opportunity to see familiar faces and catch up. In other words, they make us feel like we're part of something a neighbourhood, a village, and it's so important to our collective and individual happiness and wellbeing that that is so. We will have all heard about stories in our communities, of people who notice that someone hasn't been at the bar or someone hasn't been in recently, and that person's often checked up on. Most of the time it's positive, sometimes it's not. And without that connection and that sense of community that pubs provide, people wouldn't be able to do so. Now, Madam Speaker, I'd like to say a couple more things about how we can support and heritage protect our heritage pubs. The first is by ensuring that our town centres are safe and secure, places to travel, to walk, to be and to do that, local people in Newcastle-under-Lyme who rightly are furious that anti-social behaviour and criminality has emerged far too frequently, frequently in recent times around the sunken roundabout and in particular, hotspots in town. And I hope that all the relevant authorities from borough and county councils to Staffordshire Police get a grip of this situation and to ensure that all measures, including those introduced by this government, are used and used quickly. Our town is a wonderful place to live, learn and work and we cannot allow it to be blighted by crime and anti-social behaviour. Not now and not ever. Because I'm sick and tired of women in Newcastle-under-Lyme telling me they don't feel safe going into our town. And I don't want any women in my family or those I present to feel that way at all. We won't successfully protect and defend our heritage pubs if people aren't going to spend their money there because they don't feel safe, and I hope the relevant authorities will have heard me loud and clear. The second point I'd like to mention, Madam Speaker, about the impact of. Or is the impact of incompetent decisions taken by local authorities and what that can mean for celebrating and maintaining the heritage pubs that our towns are home to? Take the current situation on Brook Lane. Our town has essentially Madam Deputy Speaker come to a standstill at rush hour in recent weeks because Brook Lane has been closed for several weeks and is scheduled to be closed for several more. I wrote to Staffordshire County Council and the hon. Gentleman who, whose bill we are debating this morning, will share many of my frustrations, I suspect, with Staffordshire County Council. So even if the Member for Spelthorne doesn't want to hear it, I know that my honourable colleague will agree with the point on this, but I've written to Suffolk County Council. Well, I wrote to them on September the 1st. I had to write to them again this week because no letter has arrived in response to mine on September 1st. And this is important because County Council have announced they plan to use further road closures Madam Deputy Speaker on surrounding roads, and this is going to compound the situation and will make it even more difficult for people to get to the Bridge Street Ale house I talked to you about earlier on, or
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to the Jug pub, not to mention everything else that everyone has to do. The honourable. Gentleman give way. I will happily give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will happily give way. We had a similar problem with an accident on the historic bridge accident on the historic bridge close to the historic pub in Harden, close to the historic pub in Harden, and that road closure for extensive period of time and roadworks had a period of time and roadworks had a very significant impact on the ability to get to and from that lovely historic rural pub within my constituency. So I recognise that these disruptions can have a significant economic impact on our heritage pubs, and would agree with him that councils need to do a much better job of speeding up these roadworks, getting them completed
**** Possible New Speaker ****
on time, and also making sure that they think about the impact on our pubs. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. My friend from Shipley, who I almost always agree with, is completely correct to point out the completely correct to point out the frustration to businesses, to people, to residents, to to people, to residents, to communities. The impact on pubs or shops or businesses generally, their ability to trade, to survive their ability to trade, to survive and to thrive, of incompetent decisions made by incompetent people. And so, from Shipley to Staffordshire, North and South, if I can speak for the hon. Gentleman for Kingswinford, we agree. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, we cannot support our heritage pubs, nor can we add them to a list of assets if they no longer operate because of. As my hon. Friend from Shipley has pointed out, stupid decisions of incompetence or just nonsense from people who should know and do better. Our pubs are places where our communities are formed and where we share stories of our past and our heritage from generation to generation. If we were to lose them, we would be losing a huge part of our shared history. Our historic public houses each have their own unique character and charm, and we
**** Possible New Speaker ****
cannot let. I'll happily give. But once again, he highlights that it's not just about the that it's not just about the building, but it's about some of the events that take some of the conversations he. He refers to obliquely there. You know, there may be major historical moments that have happened in public houses, that have happened in public houses, some of which were coffee shops at the time, and I wonder if he's got any examples of such important
**** Possible New Speaker ****
any examples of such important historic moments that he might like to extrapolate on. My hon. Friend is really determined to make sure the Member for Spelthorne never speaks to me again, Madam Deputy Speaker, which may be a blessing, so I'm grateful. But she, she she puts question to me and no doubt to through me to all colleagues who will be thinking about how they can answer that question, their own contributions. But she's right. There are many places, whether it is campaigning against injustice and inequality, whether it's people coming together to call out councils for bad decisions that have been taken or I mean, take the the families who are campaigning to on road safety, Newcastle, particularly after the the recent incident where a father was knocked down, taking his child to school, and the organisation that has come together following their frustration and experiences. Madam Speaker. But that's just one thing where people find a place to sit, to come together and to make things happen. And I, I know in her community that many she can point to many places where that will have happened. And we can too. And I'm looking forward to the hon. Lady when she catches your eye. Madam Speaker, being able to share some of the stories from her part of the world, as I know others will too. And I think the important point about conversation that pubs are so often. Home to or locations for is that shared, connected thread of history, of experience, of understanding that goes through from generations before us to today as we seek to look to tomorrow. And so I thank you for intervention, for the ability to spend a minute just thinking about the importance of those conversations and what happens behind the the doors of our public houses, Madam Speaker, and not least the older ones. And, you know, just to go back, if I may, for a moment, to the the jug on Bridge Street, which, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, was my unofficial office during my election campaign. From a family perspective, it was almost going full circle. I said, my mother's eldest sister, Carol, sadly late now, but she married my uncle Colin, who was the lead saxophonist and Climax Blues Band, Couldn't get it right and many other brilliant tunes that will have, of course, been played in pubs up and down the country from Spelthorne, Staffordshire, and that that sense of connection that I felt with someone who had used that pub generations for me was years before me, was something that I held on to and I thought was quite nice and it was a source of comfort as. And you'll know this, Madam Speaker, you go through membership lists and trying to remember who you've spoken to, who you haven't spoken to, what they said to you, what they didn't say to you, what they wanted to say to you, and what you wanted to say back. But the, the power of that connection story, I think is, is very important. So I'm very grateful to my friend from Hackney, even though she's now on her phone Madam Speaker for giving me the opportunity, but forgive me the opportunity to spend a minute to think about that. Now are public houses each have their own unique character and charm, as I say, and we cannot let generations to come miss out on a crucial part of our heritage and our culture. And so I would Madam Deputy Speaker and this is the longest I think I've spoken since I was elected to this House. And so I'm annoyed I didn't write more. Madam Deputy Speaker, since I have the floor, but I would like to extend my thanks to all those in every way who keep our pub sector alive in Newcastle-under-Lyme. They they they do so much for the community, for our local economy, and in many ways, Madam Speaker, our island nation home would be so very different if it was. Otherwise.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will happily give way to. Thank you for taking the intervention. I appreciate you maybe, maybe drawing to a close, maybe, maybe drawing to a close, but just as you're thanking people around the country who run these pubs, I wonder if you could just pubs, I wonder if you could just give a. A special congratulations could be given to the now over 200 could be given to the now over 200 community run pubs, often as cooperatives or or taken actually by the community wants to save their pub because they appreciate the value that it brings and whether he has any cooperative or community run pubs he might want to thank, or just join me in general in thanking that movement.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. I'm grateful to my friend from Kensington and Bayswater for his intervention. There are far too many excellent examples of that sense of community that I could point to, but I'm conscious, Madam Speaker, that others may want to speak, but I would just, in saying that, say I couldn't agree more with my friend. He's right to raise with my friend. He's right to raise that. And it speaks to the power of or the people power of of community. And I thank him for making that intervention. Our historic pubs, Madam Speaker, at the heart of our communities. And once we lose them, you rarely get them back. And so I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing his bill to the House today, for giving us the opportunity to debate these important issues, and for me to speak about the excellent public houses, old and new, in Newcastle-under-Lyme. And I know that colleagues from across the House and our United Kingdom will be doing that themselves shortly. We must keep working to make sure that our pubs are preserved and supported. And so, as I speak in this debate today, Madam Speaker, I think of all the happy times I've spent with friends, family, loved ones and many a constituent across
**** Possible New Speaker ****
a pub table. Happy times indeed. Hey.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Before I call the next speaker. Whilst custard pie references have been very, very interesting and entertaining, can I gently remind entertaining, can I gently remind members that we are here to discuss whether the Heritage Pub Bill whether the Heritage Pub Bill should have a Second Reading? Brian Mathew.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Mathew. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and a big thank you to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this very valuable private member's bill for the great historic British pub in my constituency of Melksham and Devizes. I have some wonderful examples which include include,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Rightly highlights the pubs. Are actually a. Venue for history.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Venue for history. Historic music. And does he not think that actually this bill is rather limited in describing heritage as simply around the heritage as simply around the building, when sometimes it's the events in the building that also are deserving of heritage. And think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he's got any more to say about the history of that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
about the history of that particular venue he highlighted. My hon. Friend, as ever, gives me or makes an important intervention. We all know how soulful and tuneful she is, so I'm not surprised that she sought to intervene on the point. The point of music? Certainly not heritage, Madam Speaker, but I think she's right. And The Brown Jug didn't just play host to my Uncle Colin and Climax Blues Band. It's played host to many a small gig, many a local band, many young person who is almost as soulful and tuneful as the hon. Lady. And I feel sure they will continue to be play host to others in the future.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My friend. Give way on some of the. Points I will happily give way to my friend from Shipley.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to my friend from Shipley. So talking about cultural heritage, one of the pubs in my constituency now known as The constituency now known as The Woolpack in Esholt, was the the pub Woolpack in Esholt, was the the pub for the filming of Emmerdale. Any fans of Emmerdale here in the house? fans of Emmerdale here in the house? And so whilst the building itself may not have huge heritage value as a building, as the hon. Lady was making the point, it has huge cultural heritage value and so does he further agree with me that we need to capture these wider cultural heritage aspects, as the Woolpack in Esholt has for TV fans.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Madam Speaker. Grateful to my friend from Shipley for her intervention. I'm not sure what it says about me that not sure what it says about me that the minute she said The Woolpack, I knew exactly that she was talking about Emmerdale. Madam Deputy Speaker, I suppose my constituency, Speaker, I suppose my constituency, the Rovers return and Coronation Street would be a bit closer to Street would be a bit closer to home. But she's right. And the interesting thing that she points out there is that there is so much of our cultural identity, our heritage, our history that pubs have played a role in, and making sure that we are as comprehensive in our assessment and support is important to go back to my ultimately thankfully successful election campaign to be Labour's candidate, Madam Deputy Speaker in Newcastle. I'm in many. In many ways it was the jug what won it. We also have the ale House won by Graham Newbury, also on Bridge Street, that they have an Ace Irish Music night on a Monday evening, a great quiz and a Tuesday and good vibes all through the week. Madam Deputy Speaker and I'm grateful to Graham for all he does to keep our town in the minds of local people, looking for good time, for being a destination that people want to visit, and for holding my feet to the fire, as a rule, and what feels like every day we have Madam Deputy Speaker, the Museum pub on George Street. It's a small and mighty tribute to the history of our community and is on the road to our southern border with our neighbours in the city of Stoke on Trent and lastly, the Old Bull's Head Inn. It's just up from my office. It's the oldest pub in Newcastle town centre and dates from the 14th century, and only the old bull's head is a listed building. Sadly, none of the pubs that I've just described and mentioned and recommended in the strongest terms to the house appear to be included on the list of assets of community value. It puts these key parts of our heritage at risk of owners moving on, the selling of local landmarks to developers or other businesses, and the sources of real community spirit being lost forever. And so we cannot take risks or let that happen. By default, we must fill in the gaps to keep pubs from being sold off and demolished. And like many in my community, and I suspect colleagues in their own communities and their own pubs would be devastated to see any of our public houses forced out of business, and the hard working staff who work in them out of work, and I'm sure all colleagues across the House would agree on that. Our pubs, old and new, are places to learn, to enjoy, to understand, to share, to laugh, to celebrate, to console, to make memories. Madam Deputy Speaker and sometimes, I suspect, to make mistakes to and over recess. We were campaigning hard in the Newcastle town by election. Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm delighted that Labour's candidate, now Councillor Andy Stuart, gained the seat for the Labour Party on an 18% swing. To us, the benefit of the by election taking place in our town centre meant that we were close to many of our excellent heritage pubs and watering holes for the post, canvass, catch up or the note taking of the casework that me and my team had to go on and get on with. Now, more than one occasion, we were in one of our historic pubs and enjoyed every moment of it. And that election day Madam Deputy Speaker October the 8th 26, 2026, we saw my two Labour predecessors, Baroness Golding, who's a member in the other place, and Paul Foley out campaigning with us and also enjoying full time sake at once. Some of our old heritage pubs. Staffordshire Madam Deputy Speaker for my community in the North on the Cheshire and Shropshire borders, to the hon. Gentleman in the south, on the fringes of the West Midlands Combined Authority, is home to great people. We have a responsibility to protect and preserve the places that people want to go, to spend time with others because of the real and meaningful community spirit they find. Madam Deputy Speaker, everything is relative and there are many pubs that will appear to be historic to an 18 year old today, but may feel less so to someone at the other age of the other end of the age scale. And so with that in mind, and with thought of the principles of the Bill and the importance of heritage public houses in my community and up and down the country. And I'm sure, too, in Bradford, I'd like to touch a number of the other excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme whilst I have the floor. Madam Deputy Speaker One of the greats is mallards in our town centre, and I would like to give a shout out to them and extend my congratulations to all the team there. They've just been named the Pub Beer and Ale Venue of the year at the love Newcastle-under-Lyme Awards that was held at Saint Giles Church just last Friday. Mrs. Joey and I were there and enjoyed it immensely. It was actually amazing to see an old church. I think it was 1873, if not earlier, that it was built, giving a host to a awards night. We were sitting in the pews. There were lots of jokes, as you can imagine, and I think some people who probably would have enjoyed being able to have a pint while sitting in the pew on a Sunday morning. But we'll see whether Reverend Josh allows that to happen. Madam Deputy Speaker And so I am delighted to have the opportunity to acknowledge the hard work by all the team at mallards for getting the recognition that they deserve. my.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I can raise him on the beer and churches connection. This was in part actually heritage of some of part actually heritage of some of the religious orders in our country, but in Hackney the Hackney church has a brewery and a bar that it has a brewery and a bar that it runs as part of its mission in the wider communities, and I think it wider communities, and I think it really. And and underlines how historic institutions can come together. And that's also part of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
together. And that's also part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. My hon. Friend is completely correct on my father, if he were here, would share stories of the Jesuits who taught him when he was at school and how they certainly enjoyed some of those different organisations and institutions coming together. And yes, I'll probably leave that there, I think. But the but she's right. There is. And actually, you also see in communities up and down the country, former churches becoming pubs, former churches becoming homes and the rest. So there's a whole interconnected relationship there and doing whatever we can to hold on to that heritage, to celebrate the heritage and to talk about. It is important, even if some parts of the country wouldn't be as jazzy as Hackney South and Shoreditch may be, it's hard to compete. Well, we'll have to divide on that later. Madam Deputy Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I'll happily give way to my friend from Adam. Thank you. For giving me. Does he agree
**** Possible New Speaker ****
For giving me. Does he agree with me that it's not just churches that can turn into pubs in the future? For example, I'm reminded future? For example, I'm reminded of the Tolbooth Tavern on the Canongate in the Royal Mile in my constituency, which at one point previously had been a centre for local government, then became a prison and is now a pub. Does my prison and is now a pub. Does my hon. Friend agree that somewhere that can combine government, politicians, alcohol and a prison politicians, alcohol and a prison is maybe a good idea for the future?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My my hon. Friend makes a very interesting intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker, and he's the also the Member of Parliament for the Edinburgh Festival, where my wife and I and some of my cousins were earlier this year. First time we've earlier this year. First time we've been both of us having lived in Edinburgh except for at times. Madam Speaker, before my wife got Madam Speaker, before my wife got stuck with me and we saw. I'm not sure if we went to the pub that hon. Friend references, but we went hon. Friend references, but we went to many places during that that few days in Edinburgh. And so I will resist the temptation to talk about prison. I think that's a dangerous road to go down, but I think there's certainly a benefit to. Socialising people coming together at the heart of our politics. Obviously not everybody drinks alcohol, but that doesn't mean you can't benefit from being treated in the community spirit that underpins and drives most of the, if not all, of the pubs and communities up and down our United Kingdom. And whenever I hear my colleagues from Scotland speak, it just makes me think of better together. And my hon. Friend made an excellent intervention that speaks to the strength of our United Kingdom. Yeah. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me go back to Melody in Newcastle under Lyme. We'll come down from Scotland and up from Hackney and the melody sees people of all ages from far and wide coming for Alan's quiz KWIZ held every Thursday at keeping our good old fashioned pub traditions alive and providing an opportunity and a chance for Melody's faithful regulars to have a midweek catch up and importantly, to learn too. And when I was there a couple of weeks ago, back on quiz night KWIZ, that is one of the answers involved. My right hon. Friend or our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Another reference to the right hon. Lady, the Leader of the Opposition, Alan, just gave me a knowing smile. Madam Speaker, as I've said in the House before, soon after my election to this place, I launched my very own Newcastle-under-Lyme Best Pub competition and it was a very timely and enjoyable opportunity to visit, celebrate and enjoy the pubs in our community and each time we've done it, there have been nominations flying in from every corner of our constituency, and it's always fantastic to hear about all the different things that local people, our community love about our pubs. And in the end, last year it was the Little Vic on King Street, conscious that we have to be careful about our own security. But that would be where? Well, yeah, that's our local, an excellent place and I'm often given casework when you're in there. They topped the poll amongst my constituents, and I want to put on record, particularly a big thanks to Sophie, who not that long ago was doing some charity fundraising, which involved, you know, the cream on the pretty weak and useless paper plates that get thrown in your face. There's a I can't remember the you know what I mean? I think colleagues, the custard pies. There you go. Morecambe knows what we're talking about. Madam Deputy Speaker. And and she went through the probably the embarrassment of having to be have a custard thingies thrown at her but it was a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
on custard pies. Well, well here custard pies. A great example of a. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Madam Speaker. The hon. Member is making a very
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The hon. Member is making a very long speech which is ranging widely. I slightly lost the thread. If this private member's bill were to go to private member's bill were to go to a vote, would he be voting for it or against it or abstain? Hon. or against it or abstain? Hon. Gentleman, for his intervention, he talked about custard pies. That was very watery custard intervention, if I may say. We like we like full throated creamy custard here, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, I'll come to if the hon. Gentleman, I mean, he said, I've spoken too long. I haven't spoken long enough, Madam Deputy Speaker. And you you gave me a Christmas come early present by calling me first, and so I shall use the opportunity that was being provided to me by you and by my constituents for sending me here. So the hon. Gentleman just sits back, relaxes a little bit longer, and he will hear, Madam Speaker, a little bit more about what I think and how I think we should proceed, whether we agree may be a different matter, but he will enjoy it, I am sure. Nonetheless, madam Deputy, Madam Deputy Speaker, our pubs play an important role in our international relations, and the Member for Spelthorne is now a shadow Foreign Office Minister, so I hope he will be listening to this part of my speech with the attention he is known for. Madam Speaker, on Australia Day 2025, alongside members of Silverdale Parish Council, I welcome the then Australian High Commissioner, the Honourable Stephen Smith, to the Bush Inn in Silverdale and, as the House will know, because I suspect, like the hon. Member for Spelthorne, they all pay attention to everything I say in this house. Our town was the birthplace of the sixth Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Cook, and when cook returned to the United Kingdom as Australia's High Commissioner here in the 1920s, he celebrated in the very same pub we took Mr. Smith to, and my team and I and many other local people, not least the parish council, have traced Cook's local story. His father, unsurprisingly, was a miner down the pit and we raised a toast to his legacy. The only problem with cook is, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that he starts off in the Labour Party and landed up a Tory. But nobody is beyond redemption. Another much loved pub is the Gresley Arms and also savings Bank, known for having the best views in Staffordshire, the Fantastic beer garden is an excellent way to spend a summer evening or as a micro used to a final stop after a long day of pounding the pavements. As we get to enjoy one of our heritage public houses. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Albert first opened as a beer house in 1861. I hope this is enough heritage for the hon. Member for Spelthorne, now won by. Emma, is a great community pub. In fact, I took another Australian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom, the Honourable George Brandis, there on his visit to Newcastle. Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to taking you to both when you come and see us to. It's just another example of how our pubs play such an important role in all that we do. And I should also say that the. The Secretary of my constituency Labour Party, Alderman Sylvia Butler, is a very loyal and devoted champion of the Albert Pub and long may that continue. There are just so many pubs that mean so much to our community and I would happily spend all day speaking about all the Madam Deputy Speaker, but I don't want to upset any more. The hon. Member for Spelthorne, but I would welcome all of my colleagues and all parties coming to join us for a pint back home in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Newcastle. Madam Speaker, it could be said online it could be anything else, whether it's the Artery Wall, Stanton, the Westbury Tavern. Or my hon. Friend.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Or my hon. Friend. I will happily give way to my West Midlands speech. And he's talked about the many excellent beers that are available excellent beers that are available in his constituency. Did he know? Elsewhere in the West Midlands you can find fantastic cider in can find fantastic cider in Roberto's, which is a micropub right in the heart of Halesowen. And can he talk about the other options of alcohol that are options of alcohol that are available, not just in heritage pubs, but in pubs all across the country, and how it is quite a surprise that the third best cider
**** Possible New Speaker ****
pub in the country is found in Halesowen. I'm enjoying this, Madam Speaker,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm enjoying this, Madam Speaker, as I think it's been said by others before. My hon. Friend makes a very before. My hon. Friend makes a very important intervention. And he's right, you can get all manner of refreshment at Heritage Public refreshment at Heritage Public House, Madam Deputy Speaker and all parts of the country. I'm not sure what refreshment you choose if you're having some of the Spelthorne watery custard. Madam Deputy Speaker but certainly you can get a good cold pint. You could get a bit of lemon, which I know the the the former Prime Minister, Mrs. Thatcher ordered when she was at the Rovers return. We talked about Emmerdale. My friend from Shipley is gone, but when I remember a clip of Baroness Thatcher at the Rovers return, she ordered a bitter lemon. And that's just one example of the things you could drink there. I mean, my observation of Mrs. Thatcher doesn't go much further than that. I saw that quizzical look from my friend from Morecambe. Don't worry. But there is certainly there is certainly a range of things, and I think that speaks to. And I'd be surprised, actually, that the Conservative Party wouldn't want to take a moment talking about this because they believe in choice or supposedly. And the great thing about our heritage is not only are there so many up and down the country, you could choose to go to when you get there, the choices are infinite and I look forward to. I'm Not apply to fund myself, Madam Speaker, but I wish cider drinkers and Halesowen and other parts of the West Midlands very well indeed. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me just take us back to the Archer and Wolstanton, the Westbury Tavern, the Swan and Betley, the Boughton horses, the Sneyd Arms on Highland. The list on and on, as. Unfortunately for the Member for Spelthorne, my speeches doing so this morning, Madam Deputy Speaker, but at the end of the day, our pubs are about so much more than somewhere to have a pint, a cup of coke, a juice. And there are very many options that my hon. Friend from Halesowen allowed me to reference this morning. They provide an opportunity to see familiar faces and catch up. In other words, they make us feel like we're part of something a neighbourhood, a village, and it's so important to our collective and individual happiness and wellbeing that that is so. We will have all heard about stories in our communities, of people who notice that someone hasn't been at the bar or someone hasn't been in recently, and that person's often checked up on. Most of the time it's positive, sometimes it's not. And without that connection and that sense of community that pubs provide, people wouldn't be able to do so. Now, Madam Speaker, I'd like to say a couple more things about how we can support and heritage protect our heritage pubs. The first is by ensuring that our town centres are safe and secure, places to travel, to walk, to be and to do that, local people in Newcastle-under-Lyme who rightly are furious that anti-social behaviour and criminality has emerged far too frequently, frequently in recent times around the sunken roundabout and in particular, hotspots in town. And I hope that all the relevant authorities from borough and county councils to Staffordshire Police get a grip of this situation and to ensure that all measures, including those introduced by this government, are used and used quickly. Our town is a wonderful place to live, learn and work and we cannot allow it to be blighted by crime and anti-social behaviour. Not now and not ever. Because I'm sick and tired of women in Newcastle-under-Lyme telling me they don't feel safe going into our town. And I don't want any women in my family or those I present to feel that way at all. We won't successfully protect and defend our heritage pubs if people aren't going to spend their money there because they don't feel safe, and I hope the relevant authorities will have heard me loud and clear. The second point I'd like to mention, Madam Speaker, about the impact of. Or is the impact of incompetent decisions taken by local authorities and what that can mean for celebrating and maintaining the heritage pubs that our towns are home to? Take the current situation on Brook Lane. Our town has essentially Madam Deputy Speaker come to a standstill at rush hour in recent weeks because Brook Lane has been closed for several weeks and is scheduled to be closed for several more. I wrote to Staffordshire County Council and the hon. Gentleman who, whose bill we are debating this morning, will share many of my frustrations, I suspect, with Staffordshire County Council. So even if the Member for Spelthorne doesn't want to hear it, I know that my honourable colleague will agree with the point on this, but I've written to Suffolk County Council. Well, I wrote to them on September the 1st. I had to write to them again this week because no letter has arrived in response to mine on September 1st. And this is important because County Council have announced they plan to use further road closures Madam Deputy Speaker on surrounding roads, and this is going to compound the situation and will make it even more difficult for people to get to the Bridge Street Ale house I talked to you about earlier on, or
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to the Jug pub, not to mention everything else that everyone has to do. The honourable. Gentleman give way. I will happily give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will happily give way. We had a similar problem with an accident on the historic bridge accident on the historic bridge close to the historic pub in Harden, close to the historic pub in Harden, and that road closure for extensive period of time and roadworks had a period of time and roadworks had a very significant impact on the ability to get to and from that lovely historic rural pub within my constituency. So I recognise that these disruptions can have a significant economic impact on our heritage pubs, and would agree with him that councils need to do a much better job of speeding up these roadworks, getting them completed
**** Possible New Speaker ****
on time, and also making sure that they think about the impact on our pubs. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. My friend from Shipley, who I almost always agree with, is completely correct to point out the completely correct to point out the frustration to businesses, to people, to residents, to to people, to residents, to communities. The impact on pubs or shops or businesses generally, their ability to trade, to survive their ability to trade, to survive and to thrive, of incompetent decisions made by incompetent people. And so, from Shipley to Staffordshire, North and South, if I can speak for the hon. Gentleman for Kingswinford, we agree. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, we cannot support our heritage pubs, nor can we add them to a list of assets if they no longer operate because of. As my hon. Friend from Shipley has pointed out, stupid decisions of incompetence or just nonsense from people who should know and do better. Our pubs are places where our communities are formed and where we share stories of our past and our heritage from generation to generation. If we were to lose them, we would be losing a huge part of our shared history. Our historic public houses each have their own unique character and charm, and we
**** Possible New Speaker ****
cannot let. I'll happily give. But once again, he highlights that it's not just about the that it's not just about the building, but it's about some of the events that take some of the conversations he. He refers to obliquely there. You know, there may be major historical moments that have happened in public houses, that have happened in public houses, some of which were coffee shops at the time, and I wonder if he's got any examples of such important
**** Possible New Speaker ****
any examples of such important historic moments that he might like to extrapolate on. My hon. Friend is really determined to make sure the Member for Spelthorne never speaks to me again, Madam Deputy Speaker, which may be a blessing, so I'm grateful. But she, she she puts question to me and no doubt to through me to all colleagues who will be thinking about how they can answer that question, their own contributions. But she's right. There are many places, whether it is campaigning against injustice and inequality, whether it's people coming together to call out councils for bad decisions that have been taken or I mean, take the the families who are campaigning to on road safety, Newcastle, particularly after the the recent incident where a father was knocked down, taking his child to school, and the organisation that has come together following their frustration and experiences. Madam Speaker. But that's just one thing where people find a place to sit, to come together and to make things happen. And I, I know in her community that many she can point to many places where that will have happened. And we can too. And I'm looking forward to the hon. Lady when she catches your eye. Madam Speaker, being able to share some of the stories from her part of the world, as I know others will too. And I think the important point about conversation that pubs are so often. Home to or locations for is that shared, connected thread of history, of experience, of understanding that goes through from generations before us to today as we seek to look to tomorrow. And so I thank you for intervention, for the ability to spend a minute just thinking about the importance of those conversations and what happens behind the the doors of our public houses, Madam Speaker, and not least the older ones. And, you know, just to go back, if I may, for a moment, to the the jug on Bridge Street, which, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, was my unofficial office during my election campaign. From a family perspective, it was almost going full circle. I said, my mother's eldest sister, Carol, sadly late now, but she married my uncle Colin, who was the lead saxophonist and Climax Blues Band, Couldn't get it right and many other brilliant tunes that will have, of course, been played in pubs up and down the country from Spelthorne, Staffordshire, and that that sense of connection that I felt with someone who had used that pub generations for me was years before me, was something that I held on to and I thought was quite nice and it was a source of comfort as. And you'll know this, Madam Speaker, you go through membership lists and trying to remember who you've spoken to, who you haven't spoken to, what they said to you, what they didn't say to you, what they wanted to say to you, and what you wanted to say back. But the, the power of that connection story, I think is, is very important. So I'm very grateful to my friend from Hackney, even though she's now on her phone Madam Speaker for giving me the opportunity, but forgive me the opportunity to spend a minute to think about that. Now are public houses each have their own unique character and charm, as I say, and we cannot let generations to come miss out on a crucial part of our heritage and our culture. And so I would Madam Deputy Speaker and this is the longest I think I've spoken since I was elected to this House. And so I'm annoyed I didn't write more. Madam Deputy Speaker, since I have the floor, but I would like to extend my thanks to all those in every way who keep our pub sector alive in Newcastle-under-Lyme. They they they do so much for the community, for our local economy, and in many ways, Madam Speaker, our island nation home would be so very different if it was. Otherwise.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I will happily give way to. Thank you for taking the intervention. I appreciate you maybe, maybe drawing to a close, maybe, maybe drawing to a close, but just as you're thanking people around the country who run these pubs, I wonder if you could just pubs, I wonder if you could just give a. A special congratulations could be given to the now over 200 could be given to the now over 200 community run pubs, often as cooperatives or or taken actually by the community wants to save their pub because they appreciate the value that it brings and whether he has any cooperative or community run pubs he might want to thank, or just join me in general in thanking that movement.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. I'm grateful to my friend from Kensington and Bayswater for his intervention. There are far too many excellent examples of that sense of community that I could point to, but I'm conscious, Madam Speaker, that others may want to speak, but I would just, in saying that, say I couldn't agree more with my friend. He's right to raise with my friend. He's right to raise that. And it speaks to the power of or the people power of of community. And I thank him for making that intervention. Our historic pubs, Madam Speaker, at the heart of our communities. And once we lose them, you rarely get them back. And so I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing his bill to the House today, for giving us the opportunity to debate these important issues, and for me to speak about the excellent public houses, old and new, in Newcastle-under-Lyme. And I know that colleagues from across the House and our United Kingdom will be doing that themselves shortly. We must keep working to make sure that our pubs are preserved and supported. And so, as I speak in this debate today, Madam Speaker, I think of all the happy times I've spent with friends, family, loved ones and many a constituent across
**** Possible New Speaker ****
a pub table. Happy times indeed. Hey.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Before I call the next speaker. Whilst custard pie references have been very, very interesting and entertaining, can I gently remind entertaining, can I gently remind members that we are here to discuss whether the Heritage Pub Bill whether the Heritage Pub Bill should have a Second Reading? Brian Mathew.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Mathew. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and a big thank you to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this very valuable private member's bill for the great historic British pub in my constituency of Melksham and Devizes. I have some wonderful examples which include include,
10:41
Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)
among others, in Melksham, the King's Arms, named by Historic England as a grade two listed building. The bear, which was used to be used as a coaching inn in the to be used as a coaching inn in the 18th century, and the Market Tavern and in the Market Tavern in Devizes. Another bear in the hotel there in the Market Place, the lamb. In the Market Place, the lamb. In dating back to the 15th century, the. The white bear in. Listed as grade two and reputed to be the oldest pub in Devizes, dating back to 1567 and also allegedly haunted the Black Swan Inn and. And then in urchfont The Lamb in a thatch pub dating back to 15th century in Potton, the Georgian Dragon again dates back to the 15th century and recognised on the National Heritage List in Market Lavington, the Green Dragon, dating back to the 17th century and in Salisbury, near seed Seend the three Magpies again another grade two listed pub with links to the canal and in Bradford on Avon, the barge in and the Three Horseshoes and, sadly, the Swan, which was closed in September 2023. I will.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He mentioned one of the pubs that mentioned one of the pubs that dates back to the 15th century is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
haunted. Can you tell us by what. I thank the Member for his
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the Member for his interesting intervention. I wasn't I I'm not going to go into all the I I'm not going to go into all the the the ins and outs of haunting, although they may be may be of great interest to the hon. Member. The the in box, the Northey Arms, a historic inn close to the Great Western Railway, and the Queen's head, famous locally for its music in Cologne. The Fox and Hounds, a grade two listed pub, and the six bells from the 18th century.
And in Winsley the Seven Stars. There are these and other pubs also that have been closed and then, with community support reopened and the hop pole in Limpley Stoke is a worthy example and there are others in the midst of this struggle. The Ivy in Headington and the Somerset Arms in Semington that has received support from none other than His Royal Highness William, Prince of Wales. Historic pubs need this support, but more than this, all pubs and communities need a shift economically.
From the supermarket to the pub and I hope that the Chancellor will be listening as he writes his Budget speech. The people need the pub and the future of our country needs these pubs. Thank you.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He mentioned one of the pubs that mentioned one of the pubs that dates back to the 15th century is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
haunted. Can you tell us by what. I thank the Member for his
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the Member for his interesting intervention. I wasn't I I'm not going to go into all the I I'm not going to go into all the the the ins and outs of haunting, although they may be may be of great interest to the hon. Member. The the in box, the Northey Arms, a historic inn close to the Great Western Railway, and the Queen's head, famous locally for its music in Cologne. The Fox and Hounds, a grade two listed pub, and the six bells from the 18th century.
And in Winsley the Seven Stars. There are these and other pubs also that have been closed and then, with community support reopened and the hop pole in Limpley Stoke is a worthy example and there are others in the midst of this struggle. The Ivy in Headington and the Somerset Arms in Semington that has received support from none other than His Royal Highness William, Prince of Wales. Historic pubs need this support, but more than this, all pubs and communities need a shift economically.
From the supermarket to the pub and I hope that the Chancellor will be listening as he writes his Budget speech. The people need the pub and the future of our country needs these pubs. Thank you.
10:44
Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )
-
-
Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )
I call them Meg Hillier. Gentleman, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing what is Staffordshire for bringing what is a very complex and very multiple clause Bill to the House. Quite brave for a private member's bill because usually it's the short ones that are successful, but also about the passion with which he spoke
**** Possible New Speaker ****
about the the outrageous actions of the demolition of the crooked House pub. Yes.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes. I do not know that his constituency, but I remember vividly when that happened, the vividly when that happened, the feeling of outrage that not just from myself, but among many people I met in the constituency around I met in the constituency around that time, that that could be allowed to happen, that people could be that brazen and get rid of could be that brazen and get rid of what was a major cultural asset. He also highlighted in his speech how pubs and planning, and I'm going to touch on that in a moment, but I think it's worth highlighting that in the City of London, on the edge of my constituency, there are many pubs that have been preserved through planning applications, and sometimes it's quite odd. You walk down a major road in the City of London and there's this little gap where there's a pub and surrounded by high rise, glass fronted office blocks. And I do think sometimes we need to think about what we mean by heritage. Is it the pub building or is it the history of the site, and how does that fit in with modern planning application? I'm going to touch on that in more detail later on in my speech, because in simple terms, this is quite a long bill for what it seeks to achieve. And I want to just touch in and cover three areas. Really, what is the bill adding to the landscape that is already there to protect our heritage assets? What is the definition of a heritage pub? And although there is a definition outlined in the bill, I think it's a bit unambitious. If I may say to the hon. Gentleman, because as I've highlighted already a couple of times, there is wider heritage than just the physical building. And of course, there are new buildings and new new entrants to the market, if you like. But as I think quite eloquently put by my hon. Friend the Member for. Newcastle-under-Lyme, that depending on which end you are of the age range, heritage can be mean. Different things that some of us will remember things for a long time because we've been around a long while to do it. But for some people, the zeitgeist at the moment is the pub that is going to be a heritage venue of the future. And then I also want to touch Madam Deputy Speaker on assets of community value, which plays a bit into the first point I was making is why this bill, when we already have a mechanism. So we already have in the planning system very many mechanisms to protect pubs and other heritage buildings. Indeed. So just starting off from proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub already require a planning application. They are, and they are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights that various governments have introduced to make it easier for development to happen. Of course, this government has been a champion of making it easier to develop, while trying to also maintain protections. That challenge with the Prime Minister, who rightly wants to see more devolution. Devolution. I should say that I started as a baby councillor. It's quite a long time ago now, over 30 years ago now when when I inherited the the seat on Islington Council from Baroness Hodge, formerly of this place, and under her leadership of the Council there was an excellent council called Councillor Morris Barnes, who wanted neighbourhood services. Services delivered within pram pushing distance. Now our Prime Minister talks about every postcode. I think we've moved on a bit from that pram pushing distance with the internet, but actually that local devolution to the most appropriate level is right and that is a challenge. Still. I think as we devolve planning, we want to devolve responsibility, but we want to make sure that planning isn't held up unnecessarily. Nevertheless, as I go back to this, we have permitted development rights and proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub are already excluded from that. I'm certainly.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Making an excellent point about development of high streets, and the new powers of the Prime Minister is given to restrict Minister is given to restrict places like vape shops and betting shops on the high street, moving in to permit and other issues. I'm really affected in my area positively by the number of bars positively by the number of bars that are opening up in those empty shops on the high street and the positive impact they're having on our communities. Could you say a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
our communities. Could you say a little bit more about how that is positively affecting her area? Absolutely. I mean, I'm tempted to get into to the second part of my speech, but I will touch on, on this because what is very clear in Hackney South and Shoreditch is that our railway arches are becoming a real diverse hub of business and a lot of brewery. My breweries and I won't go through them all now are based there. The brewing on site, providing wonderful venues in a historic environment, but they wouldn't count as heritage pubs under the hon. Gentleman's bill because they haven't been around as a pub for 150 years. I'll give way to the hon. Gentleman.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank. The hon. Lady for the point she's making and as you will see in she's making and as you will see in clause 12, obviously one of the criteria that is given for what criteria that is given for what makes up a heritage pub is being having been around for 150 years. having been around for 150 years. But the other part of that definition is that or if the local planning authority feels that the planning authority feels that the building or its interior is of heritage significance, the heritage significance it's been well established includes links to to events, famous people in the past, and actually will cover the type of events she was speaking of earlier. But if she thinks that that definition needs to be broadened, will she work with me to find the right amendment for committee to improve this bill? So it does what she and I wanted to do.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think. About commitment to the hon. Gentleman that if his bill progresses today, then I will progresses today, then I will certainly work with him on that. But let's wait and see what happens in that respect. And and I think in that respect. And and I think that the challenge of a bill of this length is that it is quite complex to amend. And that is complex to amend. And that is always because there are a lot of many moving parts to this that already cut across, as already I've already cut across, as already I've touched on briefly, and I'll just go into a bit more detail on that, and I will come back into the point about some of the, the vibrancy of how modern pubs and breweries are making a really big difference in my constituency and up and down the country. And actually, in planning terms, we had arches that were sold off under the last government. Unfortunately, to make when when Network Rail was reclassified as a public body and therefore came under public spending rules, there was a gap in funding that previously would have been raised from private markets. In order to fill that gap, the government of the day sold off the family. Silver sold off the railway arches that Network Rail owned in my area. We also have ones owned by transport for London, and that meant that they are now owned by many of them in my area by the Arches Company, The Arch, the Arch Company, some in Gateshead. Similarly, but a large percentage in. part of London and parts of South London, I think maybe in the Ministers businesses, which I'll. I'll touch on in a moment. I'll certainly give one
**** Possible New Speaker ****
point. I thank the hon. Lady, similar to. In her constituency in Shipley. to. In her constituency in Shipley. We have an old tram shed which was very successfully converted. very successfully converted. Location now for a brewery salts, Location now for a brewery salts, as well as a very popular bar, restaurant and gathering place. And restaurant and gathering place. And so again, whilst that is not, I guess strictly within the definition of this bill as a heritage pub, the tram shed itself obviously is a heritage space and is is now producing fantastic local beers, which I would encourage, obviously all hon. Members when they come to Shipley to make sure they come and sample the excellent
**** Possible New Speaker ****
beers produced there at salts. I think, my hon. Friend, for that intervention and with with the indulgence of the chair I don't want to get too much into every clause of the bill because this is a debate about the principles. But a debate about the principles. But I think the important principle that she highlights is that you can have heritage buildings that might or might not quite meet the or might not quite meet the definition. So just to be clear to the House, the definition under the right hon. Gentleman rightly right hon. Gentleman rightly highlighted, and you have to be to be heritage heritage, public house needs to be at least 150 years old and has been used as a public house in the last ten years. So there's a debate there about something that maybe, you know, was a pub 11 years ago. So there's also a gap there, I think. But under section B has been most recently used as a public house, and the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance, meriting consideration in planning decisions. Now it's a debateable point, whether a tram shed which may have gone through further changes, often different, different eras of planning have changed things. In fact, I remember in in Shoreditch there was one warehouse in Shoreditch, in the heart of Shoreditch that had not been assassinated by the Victorian. In the Victorian era, very unusually, it had been in sole ownership for many, many years. And as a result, when the development occurred on that site and of course, the fantastic Museum of London, now renamed the London Museum and their archaeology department, brought in, as they are in London, for every planning development, they discovered that there was land there that had been where Shakespeare had himself performed one of his first plays, and they have now under a gas in that the building, when it was developed, preserved some of that very ground where Shakespeare, the bard himself trod. And I think that that shows that that buildings move and change. And so I, I think my you know, without swaying too much into the detail, but I think the definition here is really important, important issue. So it may be in her constituency that that that tram shed would qualify. But obviously some of the old tram shed trappings have been removed. And as before, the change of use, it may not. So I think that there's an interesting point there. But let me go back to the point I was trying to make about planning and the existing measures in place, which is why I think that this bill maybe overlaying that unnecessarily, local planning authorities have powers to use an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. The maximum penalty, of course, is an unlimited fine. Now, the the crooked House, sadly, was a breach of planning control, and the fine doesn't resolve the problem. So I think that there is there is a gap in current planning law that, you know, if you've got deep pockets and we all have examples, I'm sure in our constituencies, whether in our time or predecessor's time, where there are mysterious fires or things happen, and the penalty is not enough of a deterrent to somebody with deep pockets who can pay the penalty, but then go ahead and continue with the redevelopment. And I'm you know, I think with the crooked House, clearly there were people who had no no regard for the punishment that might fall upon them.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Jo White thank you for giving way. Just to give an example, perhaps a hopeful example, just outside my constituency, a developer knocked down the Carlton Tavern and Westminster Council ordered the pub to be built, rebuilt brick by brick, and it has now reopened and is proving really now reopened and is proving really popular. So it is possible to stay the course and get that, get that enforcement and that planning
**** Possible New Speaker ****
enforcement and that planning system to come in, even when someone may have actually broken the law initially. Indeed, and I've seen that there is a property on Pentonville Road that was demolished and then rebuilt. Now the headquarters of the Royal National Institute for the blind. You know, you look at it and you can see the shape of the old building. Sadly, it doesn't have all the character. So there's nothing that quite protects a building. But I think so. I think there may be. And maybe the Minister could respond in her remarks, you know, is an unlimited fine enough when it comes to buildings that are of such heritage importance. And maybe there is some scope, even if this bill does not pass for the hon. Gentleman's, the some of the thrust of the hon. Member's proposals and desires, which are clearly, you know, there's some some agreement on some parts of this across the House for the government to consider in a future planning bill. And certainly, you know, if it weren't to go through today, I would be very happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on on such issues. And I I suspect there may be some wider support for that. And the other area, of course, around planning is about listed buildings and pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection in the planning system, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension which affect the listed buildings, character or appearance as a building of special architectural or historic interest. And of course, failure to obtain listed building consent is an offence. But again, I ask the Minister maybe there is a scope here and the crooked House is a terrible example of what can happen. You know, are the sanctions enough where there is wilful, wilful action to interfere with buildings, whether listed as I've highlighted or not. And I think that we need to to consider whether there are any tweaks that could be made to to future planning law. I wanted to move on, as I perhaps hinted in my interventions to other honourable. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme about what we consider heritage to be. And as the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, he's tried to define this in this bill, and I don't I'm not knocking the attempt to do this, but heritage is more than just the building. We're talking about pubs, because pubs are not just a building. And I think about in my constituency, the pubs that are emerging are a modern heritage we have now. I lose count of the number of microbreweries I've got in my constituency and I'd be very, very happy to arrange a visit to breweries in my constituency. We are the crucible of craft brewing in one ward in Hackney Central. At one point there were five craft breweries, though the famous Five Points Brewery, named after the five point roundabout at Hackney Central, where the Pembury Tavern is based, has actually moved to another part of Hackney to. I think it's based in Victoria Ward, where it has a wonderful premises and a brewery on site, but but. And set up by Ed Mason originally. And that these modern spaces, they're actually very not just about the space and what they're brewing. They actually work hard to bring in heritage hops in many cases. There's relationships that some of my microbreweries have with Kent Farms. They're trying to create British beers with British hops, and they're really working through how to retain the heritage of the beer industry, not just the venue. They are groundbreaking, but looking backward historically, and I think that heritage is important too. And where there could be challenges that mean that those pubs and bars and breweries find it hard to survive. We know all of the challenges that face our high streets, business rates, energy prices, these are things that are putting the hospitality businesses under great pressure. I mentioned Hackney Church Brew Company that has a again, under an arch in Hackney Central, just near to the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
church itself. And that is one of our our. Understanding. Order number 11.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Understanding. Order number 11. We shall now move to this statement. We shall now move to this statement. I'll give Frontbenches just a few moments. Minister.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
moments. Minister. Emma Hardy thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And just before, if
**** Possible New Speaker ****
about the the outrageous actions of the demolition of the crooked House pub. Yes.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes. I do not know that his constituency, but I remember vividly when that happened, the vividly when that happened, the feeling of outrage that not just from myself, but among many people I met in the constituency around I met in the constituency around that time, that that could be allowed to happen, that people could be that brazen and get rid of could be that brazen and get rid of what was a major cultural asset. He also highlighted in his speech how pubs and planning, and I'm going to touch on that in a moment, but I think it's worth highlighting that in the City of London, on the edge of my constituency, there are many pubs that have been preserved through planning applications, and sometimes it's quite odd. You walk down a major road in the City of London and there's this little gap where there's a pub and surrounded by high rise, glass fronted office blocks. And I do think sometimes we need to think about what we mean by heritage. Is it the pub building or is it the history of the site, and how does that fit in with modern planning application? I'm going to touch on that in more detail later on in my speech, because in simple terms, this is quite a long bill for what it seeks to achieve. And I want to just touch in and cover three areas. Really, what is the bill adding to the landscape that is already there to protect our heritage assets? What is the definition of a heritage pub? And although there is a definition outlined in the bill, I think it's a bit unambitious. If I may say to the hon. Gentleman, because as I've highlighted already a couple of times, there is wider heritage than just the physical building. And of course, there are new buildings and new new entrants to the market, if you like. But as I think quite eloquently put by my hon. Friend the Member for. Newcastle-under-Lyme, that depending on which end you are of the age range, heritage can be mean. Different things that some of us will remember things for a long time because we've been around a long while to do it. But for some people, the zeitgeist at the moment is the pub that is going to be a heritage venue of the future. And then I also want to touch Madam Deputy Speaker on assets of community value, which plays a bit into the first point I was making is why this bill, when we already have a mechanism. So we already have in the planning system very many mechanisms to protect pubs and other heritage buildings. Indeed. So just starting off from proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub already require a planning application. They are, and they are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights that various governments have introduced to make it easier for development to happen. Of course, this government has been a champion of making it easier to develop, while trying to also maintain protections. That challenge with the Prime Minister, who rightly wants to see more devolution. Devolution. I should say that I started as a baby councillor. It's quite a long time ago now, over 30 years ago now when when I inherited the the seat on Islington Council from Baroness Hodge, formerly of this place, and under her leadership of the Council there was an excellent council called Councillor Morris Barnes, who wanted neighbourhood services. Services delivered within pram pushing distance. Now our Prime Minister talks about every postcode. I think we've moved on a bit from that pram pushing distance with the internet, but actually that local devolution to the most appropriate level is right and that is a challenge. Still. I think as we devolve planning, we want to devolve responsibility, but we want to make sure that planning isn't held up unnecessarily. Nevertheless, as I go back to this, we have permitted development rights and proposals to demolish or change the use of a pub are already excluded from that. I'm certainly.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Making an excellent point about development of high streets, and the new powers of the Prime Minister is given to restrict Minister is given to restrict places like vape shops and betting shops on the high street, moving in to permit and other issues. I'm really affected in my area positively by the number of bars positively by the number of bars that are opening up in those empty shops on the high street and the positive impact they're having on our communities. Could you say a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
our communities. Could you say a little bit more about how that is positively affecting her area? Absolutely. I mean, I'm tempted to get into to the second part of my speech, but I will touch on, on this because what is very clear in Hackney South and Shoreditch is that our railway arches are becoming a real diverse hub of business and a lot of brewery. My breweries and I won't go through them all now are based there. The brewing on site, providing wonderful venues in a historic environment, but they wouldn't count as heritage pubs under the hon. Gentleman's bill because they haven't been around as a pub for 150 years. I'll give way to the hon. Gentleman.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank. The hon. Lady for the point she's making and as you will see in she's making and as you will see in clause 12, obviously one of the criteria that is given for what criteria that is given for what makes up a heritage pub is being having been around for 150 years. having been around for 150 years. But the other part of that definition is that or if the local planning authority feels that the planning authority feels that the building or its interior is of heritage significance, the heritage significance it's been well established includes links to to events, famous people in the past, and actually will cover the type of events she was speaking of earlier. But if she thinks that that definition needs to be broadened, will she work with me to find the right amendment for committee to improve this bill? So it does what she and I wanted to do.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think. About commitment to the hon. Gentleman that if his bill progresses today, then I will progresses today, then I will certainly work with him on that. But let's wait and see what happens in that respect. And and I think in that respect. And and I think that the challenge of a bill of this length is that it is quite complex to amend. And that is complex to amend. And that is always because there are a lot of many moving parts to this that already cut across, as already I've already cut across, as already I've touched on briefly, and I'll just go into a bit more detail on that, and I will come back into the point about some of the, the vibrancy of how modern pubs and breweries are making a really big difference in my constituency and up and down the country. And actually, in planning terms, we had arches that were sold off under the last government. Unfortunately, to make when when Network Rail was reclassified as a public body and therefore came under public spending rules, there was a gap in funding that previously would have been raised from private markets. In order to fill that gap, the government of the day sold off the family. Silver sold off the railway arches that Network Rail owned in my area. We also have ones owned by transport for London, and that meant that they are now owned by many of them in my area by the Arches Company, The Arch, the Arch Company, some in Gateshead. Similarly, but a large percentage in. part of London and parts of South London, I think maybe in the Ministers businesses, which I'll. I'll touch on in a moment. I'll certainly give one
**** Possible New Speaker ****
point. I thank the hon. Lady, similar to. In her constituency in Shipley. to. In her constituency in Shipley. We have an old tram shed which was very successfully converted. very successfully converted. Location now for a brewery salts, Location now for a brewery salts, as well as a very popular bar, restaurant and gathering place. And restaurant and gathering place. And so again, whilst that is not, I guess strictly within the definition of this bill as a heritage pub, the tram shed itself obviously is a heritage space and is is now producing fantastic local beers, which I would encourage, obviously all hon. Members when they come to Shipley to make sure they come and sample the excellent
**** Possible New Speaker ****
beers produced there at salts. I think, my hon. Friend, for that intervention and with with the indulgence of the chair I don't want to get too much into every clause of the bill because this is a debate about the principles. But a debate about the principles. But I think the important principle that she highlights is that you can have heritage buildings that might or might not quite meet the or might not quite meet the definition. So just to be clear to the House, the definition under the right hon. Gentleman rightly right hon. Gentleman rightly highlighted, and you have to be to be heritage heritage, public house needs to be at least 150 years old and has been used as a public house in the last ten years. So there's a debate there about something that maybe, you know, was a pub 11 years ago. So there's also a gap there, I think. But under section B has been most recently used as a public house, and the local planning authority deems its building or interior to have a degree of heritage significance, meriting consideration in planning decisions. Now it's a debateable point, whether a tram shed which may have gone through further changes, often different, different eras of planning have changed things. In fact, I remember in in Shoreditch there was one warehouse in Shoreditch, in the heart of Shoreditch that had not been assassinated by the Victorian. In the Victorian era, very unusually, it had been in sole ownership for many, many years. And as a result, when the development occurred on that site and of course, the fantastic Museum of London, now renamed the London Museum and their archaeology department, brought in, as they are in London, for every planning development, they discovered that there was land there that had been where Shakespeare had himself performed one of his first plays, and they have now under a gas in that the building, when it was developed, preserved some of that very ground where Shakespeare, the bard himself trod. And I think that that shows that that buildings move and change. And so I, I think my you know, without swaying too much into the detail, but I think the definition here is really important, important issue. So it may be in her constituency that that that tram shed would qualify. But obviously some of the old tram shed trappings have been removed. And as before, the change of use, it may not. So I think that there's an interesting point there. But let me go back to the point I was trying to make about planning and the existing measures in place, which is why I think that this bill maybe overlaying that unnecessarily, local planning authorities have powers to use an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. The maximum penalty, of course, is an unlimited fine. Now, the the crooked House, sadly, was a breach of planning control, and the fine doesn't resolve the problem. So I think that there is there is a gap in current planning law that, you know, if you've got deep pockets and we all have examples, I'm sure in our constituencies, whether in our time or predecessor's time, where there are mysterious fires or things happen, and the penalty is not enough of a deterrent to somebody with deep pockets who can pay the penalty, but then go ahead and continue with the redevelopment. And I'm you know, I think with the crooked House, clearly there were people who had no no regard for the punishment that might fall upon them.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Jo White thank you for giving way. Just to give an example, perhaps a hopeful example, just outside my constituency, a developer knocked down the Carlton Tavern and Westminster Council ordered the pub to be built, rebuilt brick by brick, and it has now reopened and is proving really now reopened and is proving really popular. So it is possible to stay the course and get that, get that enforcement and that planning
**** Possible New Speaker ****
enforcement and that planning system to come in, even when someone may have actually broken the law initially. Indeed, and I've seen that there is a property on Pentonville Road that was demolished and then rebuilt. Now the headquarters of the Royal National Institute for the blind. You know, you look at it and you can see the shape of the old building. Sadly, it doesn't have all the character. So there's nothing that quite protects a building. But I think so. I think there may be. And maybe the Minister could respond in her remarks, you know, is an unlimited fine enough when it comes to buildings that are of such heritage importance. And maybe there is some scope, even if this bill does not pass for the hon. Gentleman's, the some of the thrust of the hon. Member's proposals and desires, which are clearly, you know, there's some some agreement on some parts of this across the House for the government to consider in a future planning bill. And certainly, you know, if it weren't to go through today, I would be very happy to work with the hon. Gentleman on on such issues. And I I suspect there may be some wider support for that. And the other area, of course, around planning is about listed buildings and pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection in the planning system, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension which affect the listed buildings, character or appearance as a building of special architectural or historic interest. And of course, failure to obtain listed building consent is an offence. But again, I ask the Minister maybe there is a scope here and the crooked House is a terrible example of what can happen. You know, are the sanctions enough where there is wilful, wilful action to interfere with buildings, whether listed as I've highlighted or not. And I think that we need to to consider whether there are any tweaks that could be made to to future planning law. I wanted to move on, as I perhaps hinted in my interventions to other honourable. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme about what we consider heritage to be. And as the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, he's tried to define this in this bill, and I don't I'm not knocking the attempt to do this, but heritage is more than just the building. We're talking about pubs, because pubs are not just a building. And I think about in my constituency, the pubs that are emerging are a modern heritage we have now. I lose count of the number of microbreweries I've got in my constituency and I'd be very, very happy to arrange a visit to breweries in my constituency. We are the crucible of craft brewing in one ward in Hackney Central. At one point there were five craft breweries, though the famous Five Points Brewery, named after the five point roundabout at Hackney Central, where the Pembury Tavern is based, has actually moved to another part of Hackney to. I think it's based in Victoria Ward, where it has a wonderful premises and a brewery on site, but but. And set up by Ed Mason originally. And that these modern spaces, they're actually very not just about the space and what they're brewing. They actually work hard to bring in heritage hops in many cases. There's relationships that some of my microbreweries have with Kent Farms. They're trying to create British beers with British hops, and they're really working through how to retain the heritage of the beer industry, not just the venue. They are groundbreaking, but looking backward historically, and I think that heritage is important too. And where there could be challenges that mean that those pubs and bars and breweries find it hard to survive. We know all of the challenges that face our high streets, business rates, energy prices, these are things that are putting the hospitality businesses under great pressure. I mentioned Hackney Church Brew Company that has a again, under an arch in Hackney Central, just near to the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
church itself. And that is one of our our. Understanding. Order number 11.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Understanding. Order number 11. We shall now move to this statement. We shall now move to this statement. I'll give Frontbenches just a few moments. Minister.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
moments. Minister. Emma Hardy thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And just before, if
11:00
11:00
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
his murder. It was always a real pleasure to work with him on the pleasure to work with him on the endometriosis APPG group, and he is remembered very fondly. So remembered very fondly. So returning to the ongoing drought situation in England, drought situation in England, drought conditions continue across much of England. Last week, Yorkshire moved into drought status. That means into drought status. That means over 80% of England is now in drought, affecting around 50 million people.
The southeast and southwest in particular, have experienced their driest April to September in over a century, with low rainfall causing exceptionally low reservoir levels in parts of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, East Sussex and West Sussex. As of the 15th of October, Wimbleball Reservoir is approximately 16% full, its lowest recorded level for this time of year. Other reservoirs in the southwest are also at exceptionally low levels, including those serving the Roadford and Colyford water Resource zones, and Ardingly Reservoir, for example, is around 20% full as a result, yesterday, the government declared severe drought in the affected water resource zones around Wimbleball, Ardingly, Roadford, Colyford and in West Cornwall.
I have also issued a ministerial direction to the Environment Agency to prioritise protecting public water supplies in areas affected by severe drought, where there is an unavoidable trade off between the environmental rules and water supplies. This will allow water companies to keep more water in depleted reservoirs. The Environment Agency has also agreed temporary measures that will conserve water in wimbleball and extend the resilience of public water supplies. Madam Deputy Speaker severe drought is the highest classification in the Environment Agency's drought framework.
While customer supplies are not interrupted, declaring a severe drought allows us to ensure proactive steps are taken to safeguard water before any disruption occurs. For example, we have instructed water companies to conduct daily monitoring of reservoir and river levels and tougher water quality monitoring. The Environment Agency will increase compliance checks on businesses that withdraw water from natural sources to ensure they are only taking permitted quantities of water, and local resilience forums would be stood up to enable quick and effective development of support if required.
While water companies remain responsible for maintaining public water supplies and for taking action under their drought and emergency plans, we can all help by thinking about ways to use water wisely over the coming weeks. However, this level of drought is something we have not experienced for decades, so it is right that governments step up our support and work closely with water companies to protect public supplies in the areas affected. Over recent days, I have met with those leading efforts to protect water supplies in affected areas, including Wimbleball.
On Wednesday, I visited Wimbleball Reservoir where I met with South West Water, Wessex Water, the Local Resilience Forum and Environment Agency teams to discuss the actions they are taking to protect public water supply. Yesterday I met with the Chief Executive of South East Water and representatives from the Environment Agency to review conditions at Ardingly Reservoir and the response in the South East. I have also spoken with Members of Parliament representing affected constituencies, and sent them letters explaining the steps they can take to support our resilience efforts in their local areas.
This week, I chaired the first meeting of the government's new Flood and Drought Resilience Task Force, bringing together over 50 stakeholders to strengthen the nation's ability to plan for and respond to extreme weather, and I continue to oversee response measures through weekly national drought group meetings to track that all necessary actions are taken to conserve water resources and maintain resilience. Madam Deputy Speaker, While the record breaking heat and lack of rainfall have put our water resources under immense pressure this year, we must take action now to prevent this situation becoming the norm.
We are at the start of a decade long journey into a very different water system, including nine new major reservoirs to secure supplies. I will continue to take the action needed to protect essential public water supplies. And of course, I will continue to keep the House and members informed as the situation develops.
The southeast and southwest in particular, have experienced their driest April to September in over a century, with low rainfall causing exceptionally low reservoir levels in parts of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, East Sussex and West Sussex. As of the 15th of October, Wimbleball Reservoir is approximately 16% full, its lowest recorded level for this time of year. Other reservoirs in the southwest are also at exceptionally low levels, including those serving the Roadford and Colyford water Resource zones, and Ardingly Reservoir, for example, is around 20% full as a result, yesterday, the government declared severe drought in the affected water resource zones around Wimbleball, Ardingly, Roadford, Colyford and in West Cornwall.
I have also issued a ministerial direction to the Environment Agency to prioritise protecting public water supplies in areas affected by severe drought, where there is an unavoidable trade off between the environmental rules and water supplies. This will allow water companies to keep more water in depleted reservoirs. The Environment Agency has also agreed temporary measures that will conserve water in wimbleball and extend the resilience of public water supplies. Madam Deputy Speaker severe drought is the highest classification in the Environment Agency's drought framework.
While customer supplies are not interrupted, declaring a severe drought allows us to ensure proactive steps are taken to safeguard water before any disruption occurs. For example, we have instructed water companies to conduct daily monitoring of reservoir and river levels and tougher water quality monitoring. The Environment Agency will increase compliance checks on businesses that withdraw water from natural sources to ensure they are only taking permitted quantities of water, and local resilience forums would be stood up to enable quick and effective development of support if required.
While water companies remain responsible for maintaining public water supplies and for taking action under their drought and emergency plans, we can all help by thinking about ways to use water wisely over the coming weeks. However, this level of drought is something we have not experienced for decades, so it is right that governments step up our support and work closely with water companies to protect public supplies in the areas affected. Over recent days, I have met with those leading efforts to protect water supplies in affected areas, including Wimbleball.
On Wednesday, I visited Wimbleball Reservoir where I met with South West Water, Wessex Water, the Local Resilience Forum and Environment Agency teams to discuss the actions they are taking to protect public water supply. Yesterday I met with the Chief Executive of South East Water and representatives from the Environment Agency to review conditions at Ardingly Reservoir and the response in the South East. I have also spoken with Members of Parliament representing affected constituencies, and sent them letters explaining the steps they can take to support our resilience efforts in their local areas.
This week, I chaired the first meeting of the government's new Flood and Drought Resilience Task Force, bringing together over 50 stakeholders to strengthen the nation's ability to plan for and respond to extreme weather, and I continue to oversee response measures through weekly national drought group meetings to track that all necessary actions are taken to conserve water resources and maintain resilience. Madam Deputy Speaker, While the record breaking heat and lack of rainfall have put our water resources under immense pressure this year, we must take action now to prevent this situation becoming the norm.
We are at the start of a decade long journey into a very different water system, including nine new major reservoirs to secure supplies. I will continue to take the action needed to protect essential public water supplies. And of course, I will continue to keep the House and members informed as the situation develops.
11:05
Robbie Moore MP (Keighley and Ilkley, Conservative)
-
-
Robbie Moore MP (Keighley and Ilkley, Conservative)
Shadow Minister Robbie Moore. >> Shadow Minister Robbie Moore. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement. Today's update reinforces what Today's update reinforces what farmers, rural communities and households have known for months. England is in the grip of a drought and the government has been slow to react. 11 areas are now in drought, with Yorkshire the latest to be declared. Ten water companies have hosepipe bans enforced.
Drought related environmental incidents have already overtaken the totals of 2022 and 25. This is the third drought in five years. It should not have caught the government off guard, but here we are. Madam Deputy Speaker, on a sitting Friday, listening to the water Minister roll out an emergency statement, effectively saying she's been busy having meetings on the 31st of July. Two and a half months ago, the shadow Secretary of State for DEFRA wrote to the Environment Agency, setting out six practical steps.
Ministers have since said that they will adopt some of them, which is welcome. But it is highly surprising that for a government Minister from a department which represents food policy, that there was not one mention in her statement about the impact that the drought is having on our farmers and our growers. Why was that? So? The key questions remain. The government talks the big game about its new water bill and taking back public control. Yet the primary action announced today is instructing water companies to conduct daily monitoring.
Does that mean that they haven't been doing that to date? If the National Drought Group has been meeting regularly since August, why are water companies only now being told to step up their drought planning? And why is the Minister willing to relax strict environmental regulations for water companies when they have failed to protect customer supplies through not undertaking significant investment in dealing with leakage and enhancing water storage? What does this say to the many households who are facing increased water bills? The Minister highlights upgrades in investment and promises to build nine new major reservoirs.
But she has also admitted that this is a decade long journey. Our communities, our farmers, our businesses are facing severe challenges today. When exactly will the first reservoir be built and what time frame for each will and will she release a time frame for each? Some on farm reservoirs are reporting a fifth to to be a fifth full or less heading into winter. Yet farmers are still waiting for the reopened Water management grant and planning and licensing hurdles to building water storage remain far too high.
The government announced a £65 million drought package. But what has happened to it? It was money already sitting unallocated in the farming Budget. Most of it poured into the sustainable farming incentive. And look what happened to that. So will she update on progress, on making it easier for farmers to have on farm storage of reservoir reservoirs? We, on this side of the house, will work constructively with anyone serious about protecting our food and water security, but we will hold this government to account when it falls short.
And right now it is falling short, significantly short of what farmers, rural communities and our households expect.
Drought related environmental incidents have already overtaken the totals of 2022 and 25. This is the third drought in five years. It should not have caught the government off guard, but here we are. Madam Deputy Speaker, on a sitting Friday, listening to the water Minister roll out an emergency statement, effectively saying she's been busy having meetings on the 31st of July. Two and a half months ago, the shadow Secretary of State for DEFRA wrote to the Environment Agency, setting out six practical steps.
Ministers have since said that they will adopt some of them, which is welcome. But it is highly surprising that for a government Minister from a department which represents food policy, that there was not one mention in her statement about the impact that the drought is having on our farmers and our growers. Why was that? So? The key questions remain. The government talks the big game about its new water bill and taking back public control. Yet the primary action announced today is instructing water companies to conduct daily monitoring.
Does that mean that they haven't been doing that to date? If the National Drought Group has been meeting regularly since August, why are water companies only now being told to step up their drought planning? And why is the Minister willing to relax strict environmental regulations for water companies when they have failed to protect customer supplies through not undertaking significant investment in dealing with leakage and enhancing water storage? What does this say to the many households who are facing increased water bills? The Minister highlights upgrades in investment and promises to build nine new major reservoirs.
But she has also admitted that this is a decade long journey. Our communities, our farmers, our businesses are facing severe challenges today. When exactly will the first reservoir be built and what time frame for each will and will she release a time frame for each? Some on farm reservoirs are reporting a fifth to to be a fifth full or less heading into winter. Yet farmers are still waiting for the reopened Water management grant and planning and licensing hurdles to building water storage remain far too high.
The government announced a £65 million drought package. But what has happened to it? It was money already sitting unallocated in the farming Budget. Most of it poured into the sustainable farming incentive. And look what happened to that. So will she update on progress, on making it easier for farmers to have on farm storage of reservoir reservoirs? We, on this side of the house, will work constructively with anyone serious about protecting our food and water security, but we will hold this government to account when it falls short.
And right now it is falling short, significantly short of what farmers, rural communities and our households expect.
11:08
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
Well, it's a shame that the opposition spokesperson is not taking this with the seriousness it requires. And just to respond requires. And just to respond briefly to what this government has done, there are many things I can do. Madam Deputy Speaker, do. Madam Deputy Speaker, unfortunately, I can't make it rain, but what I can do is ensure that this government is prepared. And that is exactly what we've been doing going back to February this year, Defra and Cobra ran a cross-government drought exercise to test the current response arrangements with lessons learned from the previous year.
So we have been planning for this since I came into government, because this government actually believes that climate change is real. We are not the government of climate change deniers. We are not the government that wishes to repeal the Climate Change Act, and that thinks that actually, when it's sunny, we should be just enjoying more barbecues. This government has been preparing for drought from the time I became water Minister. So in February we ran the cross-government exercise.
We have been working with water companies to have emergency drought or drought measures last winter, last winter. So nearly over a year ago, regulators and water companies were already looking to take actions because we know that this is the new normal when it comes to our weather. This is exactly why we are preparing for it. And when the gentleman speaks about what we are doing to support farmers, it is this government that is giving £15 million for on farm reservoirs.
It is this government that is making the planning system easier for them to build the reservoirs. It is this government that is introducing and looking at flexible extraction so they can fill the reservoirs that we are helping them build. And it is, frankly, that government that has failed to prepare for any of this during the 14 years they were in office.
So we have been planning for this since I came into government, because this government actually believes that climate change is real. We are not the government of climate change deniers. We are not the government that wishes to repeal the Climate Change Act, and that thinks that actually, when it's sunny, we should be just enjoying more barbecues. This government has been preparing for drought from the time I became water Minister. So in February we ran the cross-government exercise.
We have been working with water companies to have emergency drought or drought measures last winter, last winter. So nearly over a year ago, regulators and water companies were already looking to take actions because we know that this is the new normal when it comes to our weather. This is exactly why we are preparing for it. And when the gentleman speaks about what we are doing to support farmers, it is this government that is giving £15 million for on farm reservoirs.
It is this government that is making the planning system easier for them to build the reservoirs. It is this government that is introducing and looking at flexible extraction so they can fill the reservoirs that we are helping them build. And it is, frankly, that government that has failed to prepare for any of this during the 14 years they were in office.
11:10
Olivia Blake MP (Sheffield Hallam, Labour)
-
-
Olivia Blake MP (Sheffield Hallam, Labour)
Yes. Olivia Blake Mr Speaker. >> And thank you, Minister, for his statement. And despite what the Shadow Minister has just said, this is unprecedented. It's the first is unprecedented. It's the first time ever severe drought has ever been declared in the UK, which is incredibly shocking on our historically and famously wet island and in Yorkshire, drought has just been declared and many consumers in my constituency often raise leeks with me. And how can we make sure that water companies must address leaks before asking consumers to reduce usage?
11:11
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
My hon. Friend raises a really important point, and again, was another challenge that this government faced when it came into government faced when it came into office, which is why we now have companies fixing the highest number of leaks that they have ever done before. They are also increasing the number of engineers that they have to actually fix those leaks. And during this price review, there is £720 million that is going into smart technology, including the use of metering.
And one of the reasons, one of the many reasons why metering is so important is it actually does help customers to identify that they have leaks when sometimes they are not aware. So we are absolutely holding them to account through those weekly national drought group meetings that we've been having to make sure that fixing leaks remains one of their priorities, because it is one of the cheapest ways that we have of ensuring that we have more water in the system.
And one of the reasons, one of the many reasons why metering is so important is it actually does help customers to identify that they have leaks when sometimes they are not aware. So we are absolutely holding them to account through those weekly national drought group meetings that we've been having to make sure that fixing leaks remains one of their priorities, because it is one of the cheapest ways that we have of ensuring that we have more water in the system.
11:11
Dr Al Pinkerton MP (Surrey Heath, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Dr Al Pinkerton MP (Surrey Heath, Liberal Democrat)
OK. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Liberal Democrats are deeply concerned by the declaration of severe drought across the South severe drought across the South east and the South west, and it's a stark warning. We are in the grips of a climate crisis, and our water of a climate crisis, and our water system lacks the resilience to address the water security that that climate crisis is substantially causing. The government and water companies must act now and at speed.
Families, schools and businesses deserve to know that their taps will keep running and this will not become the new normal. And the best way to save water is by not wasting the water we've got. So water companies must act to cut leakage, follow drought plans, and invest in resilient infrastructure. Bill payer should not pay for decades of underinvestment. While nearly 3,000,000,000l of water escaped through leaking pipes every day. Now farmers and food production faced enormous pressures.
Farmers may already have lost hundreds of millions of pounds to drought this year, and indeed, the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit estimates losses of nearly £5 billion across three weather hit years. Food security is, as I know, the Minister knows national security, but the family farm tax DEFRA Budget cuts and mishandling of the sustainable farming incentive are right now putting agriculture in jeopardy. So will the government change course and back the Liberal Democrat plan for an additional £1 billion in the farming Budget? Long term, we need greater water storage, recycling, transfers and sustainable desalination, alongside fundamental reform of failing water companies to cope with the changing climate.
And Britain's farmers have enormous untapped potential to store water. Outdated planning rules and inadequate support are holding them back, and the government's £15 million reservoir fund doesn't even scratch the surface. So a question can the Minister, will the Minister today commit to a national call to store programme to identify on farm storage capacity, remove planning barriers and back farmers who want to be part of the solution?
Families, schools and businesses deserve to know that their taps will keep running and this will not become the new normal. And the best way to save water is by not wasting the water we've got. So water companies must act to cut leakage, follow drought plans, and invest in resilient infrastructure. Bill payer should not pay for decades of underinvestment. While nearly 3,000,000,000l of water escaped through leaking pipes every day. Now farmers and food production faced enormous pressures.
Farmers may already have lost hundreds of millions of pounds to drought this year, and indeed, the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit estimates losses of nearly £5 billion across three weather hit years. Food security is, as I know, the Minister knows national security, but the family farm tax DEFRA Budget cuts and mishandling of the sustainable farming incentive are right now putting agriculture in jeopardy. So will the government change course and back the Liberal Democrat plan for an additional £1 billion in the farming Budget? Long term, we need greater water storage, recycling, transfers and sustainable desalination, alongside fundamental reform of failing water companies to cope with the changing climate.
And Britain's farmers have enormous untapped potential to store water. Outdated planning rules and inadequate support are holding them back, and the government's £15 million reservoir fund doesn't even scratch the surface. So a question can the Minister, will the Minister today commit to a national call to store programme to identify on farm storage capacity, remove planning barriers and back farmers who want to be part of the solution?
11:13
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
Yeah. absolutely right to highlight how important is that farmers are able to store water on their land. It is something that we've been working something that we've been working very closely with the NFU with through the National Drought Group, but as well, as I sort of alluded to in response to the spokesperson, as well as building the reservoirs, we also need to focus on how are we filling them up. So there's some really interesting work going on with Defra, the Environment Agency and the NFU looking at regional water resource groups to how can we strengthen water companies livestock resilience, which I know is one of the concerns that where there's been supply outages are a big concern.
But also looking at one of those approaches being developed by South East Water, where we have livestock registers so that the water companies are aware of where there's need for water, for livestock, but also looking at this flexible and dynamic abstraction, because one of the things that the farmer said to me, which I absolutely support them with, was the strict abstraction. Licences they have at the moment are based on dates rather than the amount of water that's in the environment.
So what we're looking to trial in, in areas and sort of roll out is much more what I would call a common sense approach to abstraction of if it's suddenly chucked it down with rain and allow them to take more water, because my ambition is how, as well as dealing with the immediate situation now with the extreme drought. But how can we ensure our reservoirs are as full as possible going into spring next year? So I'm very keen to work in partnership, and it's always a balance between thinking about, obviously public health is the number one and must come first, but then thinking about public health and the environment and ensuring that farmers have what they need.
And so that's why that national drought group matters so much. It brings together all the important players and sort of we try and work through through that together. But it is absolutely at the forefront of my mind to.
But also looking at one of those approaches being developed by South East Water, where we have livestock registers so that the water companies are aware of where there's need for water, for livestock, but also looking at this flexible and dynamic abstraction, because one of the things that the farmer said to me, which I absolutely support them with, was the strict abstraction. Licences they have at the moment are based on dates rather than the amount of water that's in the environment.
So what we're looking to trial in, in areas and sort of roll out is much more what I would call a common sense approach to abstraction of if it's suddenly chucked it down with rain and allow them to take more water, because my ambition is how, as well as dealing with the immediate situation now with the extreme drought. But how can we ensure our reservoirs are as full as possible going into spring next year? So I'm very keen to work in partnership, and it's always a balance between thinking about, obviously public health is the number one and must come first, but then thinking about public health and the environment and ensuring that farmers have what they need.
And so that's why that national drought group matters so much. It brings together all the important players and sort of we try and work through through that together. But it is absolutely at the forefront of my mind to.
11:15
Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)
-
-
Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)
Thank, sir. >> Thank, sir. >> Thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. And as the Minister herself acknowledged, Minister herself acknowledged, Yorkshire is now in drought and at least part of the blame must be with the water companies like Yorkshire Water. Their failure to have prioritised any long term investment and instead just taking short term financial interests. So does the Minister agree with me that we need to use the upcoming water bill to really strengthen and change the way that our water companies are run, so that they're run in the interests of citizens, consumers, instead of the profit making companies.
11:16
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
I agree with my hon. Friend that we absolutely need to be putting people first. And the Prime people first. And the Prime Minister couldn't have been clearer when he talked about public control. But she's also right to highlight But she's also right to highlight that lack of resilience that we've seen build up. We have so many water companies where we have areas within them where they act as individual islands and able to move water around their network, because they simply don't have the resilience required.
To me, that is a complete failure of the previous 14 years and the regulatory system that was there, that has allowed this situation to develop. And one of the really important things we're looking at in the water bill is having those resilience standards to make sure that, quite simply, where we have areas of excess water in one part of a water company's network, it is able to move it to areas where we don't, which you would think Madam Deputy Speaker would be something very basic that they would have developed by now.
Mims Davies thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and to Mr. Mr Speaker, I'm very grateful. A delightful soggy drive in this
To me, that is a complete failure of the previous 14 years and the regulatory system that was there, that has allowed this situation to develop. And one of the really important things we're looking at in the water bill is having those resilience standards to make sure that, quite simply, where we have areas of excess water in one part of a water company's network, it is able to move it to areas where we don't, which you would think Madam Deputy Speaker would be something very basic that they would have developed by now.
Mims Davies thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and to Mr. Mr Speaker, I'm very grateful. A delightful soggy drive in this
11:17
Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
-
-
Mims Davies MP (East Grinstead and Uckfield, Conservative)
morning. So hallelujah. It has rained a small amount in my constituency, but as the Minister constituency, but as the Minister knows, we are now in severe drought, low rainfall, record breaking low rainfall, record breaking temperatures this summer and the El Nino impact, it has now been announced that we are likely to get standpipes, meaning constituents with water dependent businesses are already very worried and at their wits end, too slow fixing of leaks and possible emergency pipes under Secretary of State guidance between Weirwood and Ardingly, which is now under 20%, is possible, but not a long term answer.
I know the Minister is doing a huge amount of work and meetings on this, but can she help with arranging infrastructure investment plans to align between southern and between South east water to create delivery of effective change and real peace of mind for my constituents, because this is of deep worry. Thank you. Yeah. I recognise how important this is to the hon. Lady and to her constituents. And I made the promise on the call. But to
I know the Minister is doing a huge amount of work and meetings on this, but can she help with arranging infrastructure investment plans to align between southern and between South east water to create delivery of effective change and real peace of mind for my constituents, because this is of deep worry. Thank you. Yeah. I recognise how important this is to the hon. Lady and to her constituents. And I made the promise on the call. But to
11:18
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
reiterate it, of course, I will work very closely with all constituents, all members of Parliament directly impacted. I do Parliament directly impacted. I do want to reassure her there are no current plans for the use of standpipes. Our declaration of standpipes. Our declaration of severe drought means a slight change in terms of prioritisation from the Environment Agency, and they have that direction that they have that direction that public health must come first. It is looking at increasing monitoring. Of course, we're preparing for every scenario, you know, as a every scenario, you know, as a responsible government, but there is no immediate plans for standpipes.
Our immediate sort of request from all members of Parliament actually is pleased. If you can go and share the Let's Save Water campaign, which is a national campaign, has been running all summer. Hopefully some of you have seen it. The little kids in the blue tracksuit. I've seen some nodding. That's great. If we can try and share that as much as we possibly can. But she's quite right to highlight resilience because that is a challenge with South East Water. They again are one of those companies that have almost islands where they're unable to move water around.
So she's absolutely right to point that out as a problem. And that is something we want to work with the company for. It's like, let's deal with this emergency right now. But what are their longer term plans to have greater resilience? And that has to be looking at the ability to move water around. And she's absolutely right to say that that must involve working closely with Southern Water as well.
Our immediate sort of request from all members of Parliament actually is pleased. If you can go and share the Let's Save Water campaign, which is a national campaign, has been running all summer. Hopefully some of you have seen it. The little kids in the blue tracksuit. I've seen some nodding. That's great. If we can try and share that as much as we possibly can. But she's quite right to highlight resilience because that is a challenge with South East Water. They again are one of those companies that have almost islands where they're unable to move water around.
So she's absolutely right to point that out as a problem. And that is something we want to work with the company for. It's like, let's deal with this emergency right now. But what are their longer term plans to have greater resilience? And that has to be looking at the ability to move water around. And she's absolutely right to say that that must involve working closely with Southern Water as well.
11:19
Matthew Patrick MP (Wirral West, Labour)
-
-
Matthew Patrick MP (Wirral West, Labour)
Matthew Patrick thank. statement and for the actions she's taking? It seems clear that climate change is playing its role, but in her assessment, what else is contributing to this being a problem, and what are the long term steps this government is taking to ensure we are building that resilience up to deal with the consequences that climate change is bringing for all of us?
11:20
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
Yeah. I mean, just to reiterate, as I said at the beginning, I mean, as I said at the beginning, I mean, this has been the lowest rainfall in over a century. I mean, this is quite exceptionally low rainfall. quite exceptionally low rainfall. But he's absolutely right that we can't keep referring back to, you know, we expect our country to be soggy. We have whiplash weather now. We have whiplash in that we're going from flood to drought. And we could be even in a situation where I'm still updating the house on drought.
And then I come and update the House on flooding. I mean, this is the situation we now have in our country. This is going to be turbocharged by El Nino. And what we how we expect that to play out over the winter and into the next year. So this is why we need those resilient standards. It's why the water bill matters so much. It's why that we have the water companies focusing on public good rather than, you know, other other priorities they may have had in the past.
It's why we need that whole scale change, that we have a system that's fit for the future, rather than a system that seems at the moment to be based on water companies hoping it might rain, which simply isn't good enough. And we are determined to change that through our bill.
And then I come and update the House on flooding. I mean, this is the situation we now have in our country. This is going to be turbocharged by El Nino. And what we how we expect that to play out over the winter and into the next year. So this is why we need those resilient standards. It's why the water bill matters so much. It's why that we have the water companies focusing on public good rather than, you know, other other priorities they may have had in the past.
It's why we need that whole scale change, that we have a system that's fit for the future, rather than a system that seems at the moment to be based on water companies hoping it might rain, which simply isn't good enough. And we are determined to change that through our bill.
11:21
Sir Christopher Chope MP (Christchurch, Conservative)
-
-
Sir Christopher Chope MP (Christchurch, Conservative)
So, Christopher Chope. in very difficult circumstances. Would she agree that one of the problems is that over recent years, the government has given the government has given insufficient subsidy and support for adaptation measures and has been obsessed with subsidising windmills and solar panels, which are not going to do anything to help deal with the real problems on the ground, which we are experiencing at the moment.
11:21
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
Well, I have to say, as being a >> Well, I have to say, as being a member of Parliament for Hull, which has the Siemens wind turbine factory in it, employing lots of local people, that I actually think wind turbines are a great idea. But in more seriously, in response to his his his question adaptation is hugely important. It's why we need greater resilience in the system, which is why we need to prepare for. We keep saying the new normal, but this is now the normal of going from extreme of flood and drought.
Believe it or not, this week is Flood Action week as well. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I'm giving you a statement here on drought. So he is right. We need to be looking at adaptation. It's why it's also important we're having this conversations with Mhclg around new home standards around water efficiency. This is a cross-government issue, not just a Defra issue, which is why it was great this week when we had our flood and drought taskforce to have, as well as a DEFRA Minister there a DfT Minister there, an Mhclg Minister there, and the Cabinet Office Minister there.
Because resilience is an everyone problem and an every part of government issue.
Believe it or not, this week is Flood Action week as well. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I'm giving you a statement here on drought. So he is right. We need to be looking at adaptation. It's why it's also important we're having this conversations with Mhclg around new home standards around water efficiency. This is a cross-government issue, not just a Defra issue, which is why it was great this week when we had our flood and drought taskforce to have, as well as a DEFRA Minister there a DfT Minister there, an Mhclg Minister there, and the Cabinet Office Minister there.
Because resilience is an everyone problem and an every part of government issue.
11:22
Kevin Bonavia MP (Stevenage, Labour)
-
-
Kevin Bonavia MP (Stevenage, Labour)
Kevin Bonavia thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank the Minister for what was a very serious statement setting out the gravity of the situation out the gravity of the situation this country is in now. It's a bit rich for the conservative opposition to say that this government is not doing enough in the face of what what this country is, is now up against, when it's had many years to build that reservoir that our government is now talking about. And not just one, but several.
Can the Minister say to the House and give the commitment to the House that this government will do all it can to make these major projects happen? Yeah.
Can the Minister say to the House and give the commitment to the House that this government will do all it can to make these major projects happen? Yeah.
11:23
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
I can absolutely give that commitment to my hon. Friend, it is so hugely important. It is, frankly so hugely important. It is, frankly shocking, shocking that we haven't built a new reservoir in >> Years that we haven't developed any new sources of water, that we haven't looked at desalination. But, I mean, it's a complete abject failure to prepare and develop the resilience this country needs. And I am absolutely determined to change that from the basis of being able to move water more easily around the country, to be able to it when it rains, it is the least that the public expects.
And it is another highlight of how they've been so terribly failed by the previous government.
And it is another highlight of how they've been so terribly failed by the previous government.
11:23
Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)
-
-
Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)
Lincoln Jopp. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for her statement. Can I be helpful? I have half London's drinking water in my half London's drinking water in my Spelthorne constituency, and whilst the benefits of floating solar are well known, inasmuch as they're twice as efficient as land based systems, and they come with none of the opportunity costs of putting solar panels on agricultural land. One of the less well known ones is that they reduce evaporation by 70%.
So I remember the list of Ministers that she listed in her task force. I didn't notice whether DESNZ was in there, and could she work further across government to encourage water companies. And indeed, some farmers are doing this themselves, where they've got planning permission for reservoirs to put floating solar on.
So I remember the list of Ministers that she listed in her task force. I didn't notice whether DESNZ was in there, and could she work further across government to encourage water companies. And indeed, some farmers are doing this themselves, where they've got planning permission for reservoirs to put floating solar on.
11:24
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
I thank the hon. Gentleman. I've just seen a bit of a good nodding just seen a bit of a good nodding from the Minister, from the Department of Energy just there. And he's absolutely right that putting floating solar across putting floating solar across reservoirs does help evaporation. So I thank him for raising that point. And I'm very pleased that my colleague has also heard it.
11:25
Dr Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)
-
-
Dr Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)
That's Peter Prinsley. So the bottled water businesses are worth billions of pounds. Yet when I was a child, nobody drank bottled I was a child, nobody drank bottled water. Why is this? I've often wondered, does the Minister agree with me that whatever the drought situation, tap water for drinking must remain the very highest priority?
11:25
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
I absolutely agree with my hon. >> I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend and thank him for his question. It is quite right. The reason why we have given the ministerial direction. I have given the ministerial direction to prioritise public health and public water supply over anything else, and. And our drinking water is rated one of the highest in the whole world. So you can guzzle it and enjoy it. And it's obviously super nice if you're in Yorkshire. Taste that a little bit better than other parts of the country.
So enjoy a nice glass when you get home.
So enjoy a nice glass when you get home.
11:26
Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)
-
-
Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)
Madam Deputy Speaker 2026. >> Will be the hottest. Year on record. It will, in all likelihood, also be the coolest year that we also be the coolest year that we will experience going forward. This is climate change. This is the norm now, and it is very clear that our water systems, our infrastructure and our water companies are failing us. South West Water lost 107,000,000l a day last year, equivalent to over 100l per customer every day.
And yet, since 2013, South West Water has received £40 million a year from central government, while more than £1.5 billion has been paid out to shareholders in dividends. And what of my customers? And my residents got higher bills and sewage. They are angry, I am angry, they are fed up. I am fed up. The water bill is a huge opportunity to finally start fixing this problem. Will the Minister support the Liberal Democrats proposal for a new mutual ownership model? And will she please consider my proposal for a national rainwater management strategy?
And yet, since 2013, South West Water has received £40 million a year from central government, while more than £1.5 billion has been paid out to shareholders in dividends. And what of my customers? And my residents got higher bills and sewage. They are angry, I am angry, they are fed up. I am fed up. The water bill is a huge opportunity to finally start fixing this problem. Will the Minister support the Liberal Democrats proposal for a new mutual ownership model? And will she please consider my proposal for a national rainwater management strategy?
11:27
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
Thank you. I absolutely hear how angry he is and how disappointed he is in the efforts and attainment of his water company. As I've mentioned, they company. As I've mentioned, they are putting more into leakage, but he is quite right to hold them to account and to make sure that they deliver further and faster for his residents. And I support him wholeheartedly in doing that. As the Prime Minister has said, this government will be relentless in giving people and places what they were promised ten years ago ownership and control.
As he promised, they were sold to take back control from the very people who gave away everything that was previously owned by the public and this government are. We are struggling to reverse that legacy of the 1980s, but it is something we are determined to do through our water bill to right the wrongs that were delivered through Thatcher and the party opposite Lizzi Collinge. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Speaker, not many people know that the western part of my constituency includes part of the
As he promised, they were sold to take back control from the very people who gave away everything that was previously owned by the public and this government are. We are struggling to reverse that legacy of the 1980s, but it is something we are determined to do through our water bill to right the wrongs that were delivered through Thatcher and the party opposite Lizzi Collinge. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Speaker, not many people know that the western part of my constituency includes part of the
11:28
Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)
-
-
Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)
Yorkshire Dales National Park. So to see our neighbours in Yorkshire going into drought and the rest of the country, a lot of the rest of the country, a lot of the rest of the country in severe drought is very, very worrying. So I welcome her statement today. Protecting public water supplies. But does she share my disappointment that we continue to see in this House arguments made against tackling arguments made against tackling climate change, which fundamentally is the cause of this drought.
Couldn't agree more with my hon. Couldn't agree more with my hon. Friend. It is, quite frankly, astonishing when we literally are
Couldn't agree more with my hon. Couldn't agree more with my hon. Friend. It is, quite frankly, astonishing when we literally are
11:28
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
-
-
Emma Hardy MP, The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
seeing with our own eyes the impact of climate change. It is there in front of us. We have had the driest front of us. We have had the driest summer in over a century, and yet still some people think climate change isn't real. We are going into an El Nino year where there is into an El Nino year where there is a higher risk of flooding. And we've talked already about the whiplash weather we are experiencing. I frankly find it just unbelievable that people don't think climate change is a real thing, or that we should be taking thing, or that we should be taking action on it.
We absolutely need to, because it is impacting every single one of our residents in every single part of their daily lives. And it is something that would be, quite frankly, a dereliction of duty if we didn't take it seriously. And I'm pleased. Thank goodness we have a government that is not a government of climate deniers. And like many of the parties opposite.
We absolutely need to, because it is impacting every single one of our residents in every single part of their daily lives. And it is something that would be, quite frankly, a dereliction of duty if we didn't take it seriously. And I'm pleased. Thank goodness we have a government that is not a government of climate deniers. And like many of the parties opposite.
11:29
Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )
-
-
Dame Meg Hillier MP (Hackney South and Shoreditch, Labour )
And that concludes the statement. >> And that concludes the statement. Den Meg Hillier. Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. And I was, I think, just talking about the I think, just talking about the Hackney Church Brew Company and many of the other independent breweries are underneath the arches.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
breweries are underneath the arches. And I give way to my hon. Friend. I'm conscious. I've spoken a lot, but the hon. Lady, before she was interrupted with a statement, said that she'd like to arrange a visit for members of the House to visit one of her breweries, while the Member for Kensington has said he'll happily get the first round. So can I encourage the hon. Lady to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
get arranging sooner rather than later? Everybody is always welcome, Madam Deputy Speaker to Hackney Madam Deputy Speaker to Hackney South and Shoreditch, which is really the centre of the universe, though of course in this place there may be others who disagree there may be others who disagree with me, but it is also only half an hour on a bike or by public transport, so I highly recommend it transport, so I highly recommend it and a good night out will be had by all. But these actually these new breweries and pubs are really bucking the trend in hospitality. bucking the trend in hospitality. The arch archway areas are becoming hubs for other businesses too, so our high streets can be challenging. They're actually impacting our high streets still do reasonably well, partly because people are, though Hackney is often described as very hip and very cool and very expensive, which certainly those things are true. It is also still achingly poor. 1 in 2 children live in poverty, though, thanks to the government's changes on child poverty, that will hopefully reduce. And nearly 60% of people live in social housing, many of whom are living in very overcrowded conditions. But so so these are these arches are a part of, if you like, a new hackney, but also building very much on the traditions of the old. I also highlight Saint Monday, which is a very innovative brewery that's combining brewing with heavy metal. So if you're any heavy metal, fans here can get a bit of real ale and heavy metal all in the same place. Great. Beyond Taproom and Brewery, another archway based set up by Oli, Nick and John, three beer loving friends. They do some amazing work. You can buy some great Shoreditch and Hackney named beers. I forget which one serves which now, but we need to do a crawl of all the ones named after Hoxton, Shoreditch and that alone would keep us busy. The Howling Hops Brewery brews on site as well. I really like the 40 foot brewery in Dalston, which I go to every now and then. It was named 40 foot because it was built, had two shipping containers, not arches this time, but 220 foot shipping containers. Hence it's the 40 foot brewery. Now that wouldn't meet the heritage standards of the hon. Gentleman. But actually there is an interesting, you know, interesting new heritage coming through in our breweries and the signature brewery in Haggerston, which also offers tours, in fact, as many do, I mentioned Five Points Brewery, you can do a tour there. So anyone thinking as we approach the festive season that they need to get a gift for somebody, I highly recommend a visit to Hackney and a tour of one of the breweries. But I mean, so these are the modern this is the modern culture that's coming through. Some of these are in heritage buildings. You could say that the arches are in their own heritage. So they. The challenge would be whether they would qualify under the hon. Gentleman's bill. But I wanted to talk a bit about the assets of community value, because I think this is when I read the hon. Gentleman's bill, the first time I was trying to find what was specifically different to the assets of community value, and he did outline some of that in his speech. I'm a little wiser to his thinking, but of course, this was introduced in England in the Localism Act of 2011, and it provides communities with a route to nominate and retain any building or land, such as heritage pubs, which they feel furthers the social wellbeing or interest of the community. And local authorities are responsible for ensuring that their assets of community value. That scheme is run in accordance with the legislation, which is set out for hansard's purposes in part three, chapter five of the Localism Act 2011 and the Assets of Community Value England Regulations of 2012, and this includes many making decisions on whether a nominated asset meets the definition of an asset of community value, as set out in the Act. And what another reason I'm sceptical about this bill, though I don't have any. No no scepticism about the hon. Gentleman's intent. I think, as I've said before, a lot of us share, but the government is already strengthening the scheme and I'm sure the Minister will go into this. In her remarks, through provisions contained in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act of 2026, and that will introduce a new community Right to Buy, which covers some of the clauses in his bill. I won't name more because I can't remember all the numbers, but I think it's clause nine from memory that people how people can put in a bid to own a property. But communities will have the first opportunity to purchase an asset if it's put up for sale by its owner within 12. With 12 months to raise funding and get an independent, have an independent valuation process ensuring a fair price so that negotiation is successful. So this is sort of really mirrors a lot of what's in the hon. Gentleman's bill. So he's very welcome to intervene and tell me why he thinks it's
**** Possible New Speaker ****
different. And again, perhaps to reiterate some of the points, but. The whole point is it really
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The whole point is it really isn't different. A large parts of it are copied directly from what the government introduced for us as a community value. But at the point, a community value. But at the point, as I said in my opening speech, is that in most cases, community that in most cases, community groups do not go through the, you know, quite complex process of know, quite complex process of getting the the building facility registered as an asset of community value until there is a direct threat that they know about, by which point, as we saw with the crooked House, as we may yet see with pubs like the Macbeth in her constituency, which aren't, I don't think. Currently. Assets of community value. If those came under threat, it would almost certainly be too late for the community to then respond and to get the community right to buy this is making sure that that is available from day one for these really important historic pubs in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
her constituency and mine. Hon. Gentleman, for that clarification, because actually that means that we just all need to that means that we just all need to be, as we've talked with compassion already today, about pubs that we value and heritage, buildings and heritage that we value in our heritage that we value in our constituencies to push for these to become assets of community value. And I want to give an example from my constituency, the Chesham Arms my constituency, the Chesham Arms on Mehetabel Road, which was Hackney's first ever asset of community value.
The pub was is 162 community value. The pub was is 162 years old and it closed in 2012 and the owner at the time just assumed it would be able to be turned into flats. It's in a residential street. It's a very, you know, a traditional east London pub in a terrace. Part of that terrace is, you know, not a lot. It's not very big. It's just a little local neighbourhood pub. And when it closed, there was this assumption that it would be easy to be redeveloped.
But the council stepped in. Then under labour control we have an elected mayor as well in Hackney, although of course planning matters are a matter not for the elected mayor and it defended it from that redevelopment and it reopened in 2015. A real success story. But the hon. Gentleman was right, though, because the the challenge was it closed and then became an asset of community value. So I think learning from that lesson and from the very comments that he made, we need to all be ahead of the curve on this.
And whether it's a tram shed that's a heritage building that's become a pub, or whether it's a pub that's been there for a very long time, or a coffee house that's become a pub, whatever, or whatever the cultural issues are, we can push for those to be assets of community value wider than the hon. Gentleman's bill. And I think that this is perhaps today I you know, I suggest to well, to the Minister, but to to all colleagues that we maybe have this as a, a a call to arms for us to implement the essence of the amendment, hon.
Member's bill without having to go through a quite a complicated process, which actually, I think narrows it too much. And I think there's an opportunity for us to broaden what a cultural, culturally rich and heritage site is and maybe push for community assets of community value to be more widespread, as rightly as he says, ahead of threat. I'm not going to go through all the pubs in my constituency. We would be here a very long time. And Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm aware that there are other people come speak.
Needless to say, I'm very happy to to arrange a tour at, at at any point. And I'm sure the various of the, the bodies that I've worked with over the years on, on beer and brewery breweries will be keen to help empower that. And in fact, it was the current Chancellor that was instrumental when he was working in the Treasury that helped change the taxation on small breweries to make it possible for these craft breweries to exist.
And they create many jobs in brewing and, of course, in hospitality and and are bucking, you know, they're still trying and struggling at times, but they are bucking the trend compared with a lot of other other assets. So I think that we, we need to be more ambitious as members. We do not need necessarily to legislate for everything. We have the legislation here in place, and I think that we are very capable of making sure that we use the legislation.
We've got to protect the assets that hon. Members have already so far eloquently spoken of and defended. So I'm happy to continue to work with the hon. Gentleman about the the intent of his bill. But on. I don't feel this is the bill to support. I think we can deliver on his agenda without passing this bill today.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
breweries are underneath the arches. And I give way to my hon. Friend. I'm conscious. I've spoken a lot, but the hon. Lady, before she was interrupted with a statement, said that she'd like to arrange a visit for members of the House to visit one of her breweries, while the Member for Kensington has said he'll happily get the first round. So can I encourage the hon. Lady to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
get arranging sooner rather than later? Everybody is always welcome, Madam Deputy Speaker to Hackney Madam Deputy Speaker to Hackney South and Shoreditch, which is really the centre of the universe, though of course in this place there may be others who disagree there may be others who disagree with me, but it is also only half an hour on a bike or by public transport, so I highly recommend it transport, so I highly recommend it and a good night out will be had by all. But these actually these new breweries and pubs are really bucking the trend in hospitality. bucking the trend in hospitality. The arch archway areas are becoming hubs for other businesses too, so our high streets can be challenging. They're actually impacting our high streets still do reasonably well, partly because people are, though Hackney is often described as very hip and very cool and very expensive, which certainly those things are true. It is also still achingly poor. 1 in 2 children live in poverty, though, thanks to the government's changes on child poverty, that will hopefully reduce. And nearly 60% of people live in social housing, many of whom are living in very overcrowded conditions. But so so these are these arches are a part of, if you like, a new hackney, but also building very much on the traditions of the old. I also highlight Saint Monday, which is a very innovative brewery that's combining brewing with heavy metal. So if you're any heavy metal, fans here can get a bit of real ale and heavy metal all in the same place. Great. Beyond Taproom and Brewery, another archway based set up by Oli, Nick and John, three beer loving friends. They do some amazing work. You can buy some great Shoreditch and Hackney named beers. I forget which one serves which now, but we need to do a crawl of all the ones named after Hoxton, Shoreditch and that alone would keep us busy. The Howling Hops Brewery brews on site as well. I really like the 40 foot brewery in Dalston, which I go to every now and then. It was named 40 foot because it was built, had two shipping containers, not arches this time, but 220 foot shipping containers. Hence it's the 40 foot brewery. Now that wouldn't meet the heritage standards of the hon. Gentleman. But actually there is an interesting, you know, interesting new heritage coming through in our breweries and the signature brewery in Haggerston, which also offers tours, in fact, as many do, I mentioned Five Points Brewery, you can do a tour there. So anyone thinking as we approach the festive season that they need to get a gift for somebody, I highly recommend a visit to Hackney and a tour of one of the breweries. But I mean, so these are the modern this is the modern culture that's coming through. Some of these are in heritage buildings. You could say that the arches are in their own heritage. So they. The challenge would be whether they would qualify under the hon. Gentleman's bill. But I wanted to talk a bit about the assets of community value, because I think this is when I read the hon. Gentleman's bill, the first time I was trying to find what was specifically different to the assets of community value, and he did outline some of that in his speech. I'm a little wiser to his thinking, but of course, this was introduced in England in the Localism Act of 2011, and it provides communities with a route to nominate and retain any building or land, such as heritage pubs, which they feel furthers the social wellbeing or interest of the community. And local authorities are responsible for ensuring that their assets of community value. That scheme is run in accordance with the legislation, which is set out for hansard's purposes in part three, chapter five of the Localism Act 2011 and the Assets of Community Value England Regulations of 2012, and this includes many making decisions on whether a nominated asset meets the definition of an asset of community value, as set out in the Act. And what another reason I'm sceptical about this bill, though I don't have any. No no scepticism about the hon. Gentleman's intent. I think, as I've said before, a lot of us share, but the government is already strengthening the scheme and I'm sure the Minister will go into this. In her remarks, through provisions contained in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act of 2026, and that will introduce a new community Right to Buy, which covers some of the clauses in his bill. I won't name more because I can't remember all the numbers, but I think it's clause nine from memory that people how people can put in a bid to own a property. But communities will have the first opportunity to purchase an asset if it's put up for sale by its owner within 12. With 12 months to raise funding and get an independent, have an independent valuation process ensuring a fair price so that negotiation is successful. So this is sort of really mirrors a lot of what's in the hon. Gentleman's bill. So he's very welcome to intervene and tell me why he thinks it's
**** Possible New Speaker ****
different. And again, perhaps to reiterate some of the points, but. The whole point is it really
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The whole point is it really isn't different. A large parts of it are copied directly from what the government introduced for us as a community value. But at the point, a community value. But at the point, as I said in my opening speech, is that in most cases, community that in most cases, community groups do not go through the, you know, quite complex process of know, quite complex process of getting the the building facility registered as an asset of community value until there is a direct threat that they know about, by which point, as we saw with the crooked House, as we may yet see with pubs like the Macbeth in her constituency, which aren't, I don't think. Currently. Assets of community value. If those came under threat, it would almost certainly be too late for the community to then respond and to get the community right to buy this is making sure that that is available from day one for these really important historic pubs in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
her constituency and mine. Hon. Gentleman, for that clarification, because actually that means that we just all need to that means that we just all need to be, as we've talked with compassion already today, about pubs that we value and heritage, buildings and heritage that we value in our heritage that we value in our constituencies to push for these to become assets of community value. And I want to give an example from my constituency, the Chesham Arms my constituency, the Chesham Arms on Mehetabel Road, which was Hackney's first ever asset of community value.
The pub was is 162 community value. The pub was is 162 years old and it closed in 2012 and the owner at the time just assumed it would be able to be turned into flats. It's in a residential street. It's a very, you know, a traditional east London pub in a terrace. Part of that terrace is, you know, not a lot. It's not very big. It's just a little local neighbourhood pub. And when it closed, there was this assumption that it would be easy to be redeveloped.
But the council stepped in. Then under labour control we have an elected mayor as well in Hackney, although of course planning matters are a matter not for the elected mayor and it defended it from that redevelopment and it reopened in 2015. A real success story. But the hon. Gentleman was right, though, because the the challenge was it closed and then became an asset of community value. So I think learning from that lesson and from the very comments that he made, we need to all be ahead of the curve on this.
And whether it's a tram shed that's a heritage building that's become a pub, or whether it's a pub that's been there for a very long time, or a coffee house that's become a pub, whatever, or whatever the cultural issues are, we can push for those to be assets of community value wider than the hon. Gentleman's bill. And I think that this is perhaps today I you know, I suggest to well, to the Minister, but to to all colleagues that we maybe have this as a, a a call to arms for us to implement the essence of the amendment, hon.
Member's bill without having to go through a quite a complicated process, which actually, I think narrows it too much. And I think there's an opportunity for us to broaden what a cultural, culturally rich and heritage site is and maybe push for community assets of community value to be more widespread, as rightly as he says, ahead of threat. I'm not going to go through all the pubs in my constituency. We would be here a very long time. And Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm aware that there are other people come speak.
Needless to say, I'm very happy to to arrange a tour at, at at any point. And I'm sure the various of the, the bodies that I've worked with over the years on, on beer and brewery breweries will be keen to help empower that. And in fact, it was the current Chancellor that was instrumental when he was working in the Treasury that helped change the taxation on small breweries to make it possible for these craft breweries to exist.
And they create many jobs in brewing and, of course, in hospitality and and are bucking, you know, they're still trying and struggling at times, but they are bucking the trend compared with a lot of other other assets. So I think that we, we need to be more ambitious as members. We do not need necessarily to legislate for everything. We have the legislation here in place, and I think that we are very capable of making sure that we use the legislation.
We've got to protect the assets that hon. Members have already so far eloquently spoken of and defended. So I'm happy to continue to work with the hon. Gentleman about the the intent of his bill. But on. I don't feel this is the bill to support. I think we can deliver on his agenda without passing this bill today.
11:38
Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)
-
-
Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)
Yeah. privilege to be able to speak in the debate that my colleague has secured on this very important secured on this very important topic of heritage public houses, and I am very privileged to have 64 pubs or as a couple of conservative clubs in the numbers as well, which is worth mentioning whilst we're here. And actually that is quite a few compared to some members who I know only have a handful, particularly the more urban constituencies aren't always as fortunate to have as many pubs as constituencies that are that nice mix of urban and rural as mine is. And given the nature of my constituency, which in large part is made up of historic villages that have either merged into the city of Plymouth or have remained as very sweet South Hams or Dartmoor villages. We therefore do have a large number of historic pubs, because we know that they would have been a key part of the community. They would have been the stopping points for those travelling potentially up from Cornwall through Devon and on to London, and also key parts of fishing communities and urban and rural communities as well, and therefore villages like Noss, Mayo and Newton Ferrers have, I think, 4 or 5 pubs between them. And when you go there, they're very small. And actually you'd be shocked at how many there are. But I can reassure you that they they maintain a healthy trade and the muscle in in down. Thomas is also another key one of those country pubs that serves excellent food in the. The bits that are now in Plymouth, Plympton and Plymstock because they really were villages before they were formed into the city. You have some very historic pubs there and I'm going to touch on a couple of those shortly, but it's worth mentioning that the. What was the village of Turnchapel? You very proudly refer to it still as the village, but is an important part of the city of Plymouth as well, and the Boringdon Arms and the Colne Valley Bay in. There are both key parts of the community, unfortunately, are being kept going through the marine autonomy work that is happening in a former Royal Marine base next door. The historic Drake Manor in in Buckland, Monachorum, which hopefully Sir Francis Drake himself will be pleased to have been the namesake of Milton Coombe has the. Who'd have thought it? Which is your classic thatched pub at the bottom of the hill, in a very tiny little village, but which serves the most wonderful food, and I always make sure I go with friends just before Christmas. And we have a fantastic community led pub in Cornwood, who recently was shortlisted for one of the Cla's rural prizes and came all the way to the House of Commons and although they weren't a winner that day, were very proud to be nominated. And indeed the old Smithy, which is not named after me but is a very good pub in Ivybridge as well. So that's just a few. And like others in the room in the chamber this this afternoon, this morning I. I won't name all of them, but I thought it was worth putting them on a. On record, and I think it's also worth just mentioning the many names that these pubs have. And we've heard of Woolsacks and all sorts of historic names. And we know that even the. The bars within the House of Commons are named for specific historic reasons. And I want to particularly mention the Skylark in the little village of Clearbrook. And if anybody is ever up on Dartmoor, you will hear the Skylark tweeting away across the moors. And I think that's what's so wonderful about these historic pubs is the names reflect something either historic or something that is specifically tied to the culture of that local community, and I think it draws young people to have that connection with the history as well. Once you have these names, I want to make a special mention, if I may, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the community groups that I know exist all over the country to help pubs actually survive just through sending people on walk routes around them or highlighting them by running competitions. And there's a very thriving Facebook page called Plymouth on Tap, which does exactly that, and which runs a very comprehensive competition with all sorts of different rounds where it will pitch pubs in certain communities about, and to then head towards the the final winners. And I think it is worth just mentioning the volunteers behind Facebook pages or websites like that, who do so much and in their words, to map Plymouth's pub history and fight for the ones we've still got. And I think it's worth paying tribute to them and to the organisers in particular of that group, this this morning. Which leads me on to the value of us as members of Parliament doing competitions. And I, like many others, have run a pub of the year competition and I'm delighted that the winner over the last two years is a historic heritage pub in my constituency, the London in in Plympton St Maurice, one of those old, old villages is a 16th century grade two listed building, but can still muster up enough votes each year to have one for two years in a row, which Madam Deputy Speaker means I am adding in some extra categories for the year ahead to make sure that there are some other options of those who can win. But Simon, the landlord, knows that I'm doing that and is going to be hopefully pushing for the best pub in Plympton, and maybe, who knows, he'll win the overall best pub as well. But again, it. It goes back to that point I made about the importance of these heritage pubs and the stories that they tell, because Saint Maurice, a village, as I've already alluded to, was along a major route to London. Who'd have thought it? Little old Plympton Saint Maurice would have been a stopping point for Plymouth on that way. And there's an incredible history that I won't fully go into today, Madam Deputy Speaker, but maybe I should get an adjournment debate on it at some point. Plymouth Plympton Saint Maurice is the home of many, many fine 17th and 18th century artists. So if anybody is sat waiting to speak and wishes to look up the history of Charles Eastlake or indeed Joshua Reynolds, you will see that the London in May well even have been frequented by them, as they were schoolboys, and Plympton Grammar School, and then went on to be leading figures in the Royal Academy and the National Gallery. Even so, if anyone is bored this morning, they can have a little look whilst they're listening. And again it sits below a ninth century castle. So these historic pubs are not just historic for the building themselves, their heritage, because of the communities that they sit in, and by the very nature of how old these pubs are, that usually means the community around them has been there for that long as well. And that leads me on to another one of these heritage pubs, the Union in also in Plympton. As you can tell, Plympton is a very old part of my constituency, and what I love is that these buildings do not get hindered by the listings that they might have, and the fact that they're not allowed to make changes to their interiors in the union, in case they very creatively use their garden space, because they are now the home of Plympton Royal British Legion branch. And I've attended several ceremonies with the RBL in the garden of that historic pub, because although the rooms are small and it's incredibly cosy inside, they do have land around them. And so I was privileged to attend a D-Day event there and also a VE day commemoration event, and I know they will appreciate the mention this morning. So I just think that's two very clear examples of strong community roles that these heritage buildings that are, by nature often constricted because of their physicality, that they're able to play in the neighbourhoods. And I think though, it's worth just touching on why these heritage pubs need saving in the first place and why we need to be looking at this legislation today, because given the nature of their very fabric, it is harder sometimes to bring in the numbers or to diversify into serving, you know, a carvery or a particularly complicated food menu, because actually, if they are these heritage buildings with tiny little rooms and steps everywhere, serving food in the way that a lot of modern purpose built pubs do is going to be particularly difficult. But we know that pubs at the moment are facing considerable challenges given the economic climate that we're in at the moment, and the tax increases that the current government have have levelled on them, whether that is those increases in national insurance and the minimum wage for young people and for business rates. And I know that there will be members on the opposite side who say, but we've done some work on business rates for pubs. However, I think the damage has been done already in many cases. And so that's yet another reason why protecting these heritage pubs through enabling them to maintain their roles within the community and ensuring that they can't be turned into historic houses is going to be so important. And indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, I met recently with a constituent who is starting on that journey towards creating or securing a community asset certification for a local pub that has been sold, but ultimately, the hoops that have to be jumped through are incredibly difficult at the moment, and I'm not going to name it because I don't want to ruin what they're planning on doing and the work that's going on in that community to to do things properly. But it has highlighted that there is concern in the communities where these pubs exist that they could lose the designation of being a public house and see a change of use. And so what my hon. Friend is doing through this legislation to build on what is already there, because I know the hon. Member for Hackney has highlighted the legislation that exists already is important because ultimately nobody wants to see what is often a large building in a village turned into flats or the equivalent. And having grown up in the city centre in Plymouth, which is not in my constituency, but just outside, I grew up in a community called Greenbank, which is very historic and, you know, was was once fields and has seen a lot of building over the years. But what was I don't know, is it famous for perhaps you could say is the fact that on pretty much every corner was a pub and if I walked to school, I would walk past probably 4 or 5 small neighbourhood community pubs in amongst terraced houses. And one of the reasons for that is because the neighbouring communities were owned by brethren family who wouldn't allow any pubs in their area. So that meant Greenbank, where I grew up, made up for it in numbers, and there was going to be plenty of pubs for anybody that lived in Saint Jude's or in Hyde Park and Mannamead and the hon. Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport constituency to to get to a pub within the Greenbank community. But what's happened, Madam Deputy Speaker, is because they weren't assets of community value, they were just community like neighbourhood pubs, pretty much without exception. I think there's one that is effectively somebody's living room. The Providence in around the corner from where I grew up, they have been turned into student accommodation. Madam Deputy Speaker And there's nothing worse than seeing historic pubs that were part of a Victorian neighbourhood turned into a pub. Indeed, the one at the end of the road that I grew up on that would have been built as an inn on the corner of a crescent is now student accommodation and what was once a lounge bar and a place you could play darts and a place you could play pool and pop in and have a drink with community. People used to have friends in these pubs that they would go and see, have all been turned into properties that people are now living in. And, you know, students are great, but actually they don't live there the whole year. And instead we've lost that community asset. So that's why I think this legislation with these heritage public houses would be so helpful, because it does ensure that there's some control over the changes within a community that might affect the very fabric of what is going on in that area. Now, I'm not going to speak for much longer, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am just going to say that I think my hon. Friend for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, who is well known for his love of a good ale and a big supporter of the APPG for for is it is it ale or. I'm not an ale drinker, Madam Deputy Speaker so I never quite know the name. I do drink the odd beer, but I'm not not a big, not a big warm ale fan. I'd rather be in a nice crunchy pub. Drinking a glass of wine with my brother's Labrador is yellow, so I didn't quite get the joke, but but I do like the value of it. But I do believe my hon. Friend has raised some valuable points, and his bill offers some smart safeguards. And I do think this is an important debate, because actually, I think what is one of the things that makes the United Kingdom so special is that culture we have of community pubs and historic pubs. We know that they were the coaching inns of the past, places of refuge, places that were safe, that people could stop at if they were travelling on long journeys. And I think they are something that is a particularly British institution. And so I am therefore very grateful to have been able to contribute. Those of you who haven't clocked will know that I obviously love a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
bit of history, and so to be able to talk this afternoon has been wonderful. Thank you. Yeah.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Linsey Farnsworth. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the right hon. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire on being successful in the private member's ballot bill ballot, having been fortunate enough to secure a place in the ballot myself in the last session.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
bit of history, and so to be able to talk this afternoon has been wonderful. Thank you. Yeah.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Linsey Farnsworth. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the right hon. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire on being successful in the private member's ballot bill ballot, having been fortunate enough to secure a place in the ballot myself in the last session.
11:50
Linsey Farnsworth MP (Amber Valley, Labour)
-
-
Linsey Farnsworth MP (Amber Valley, Labour)
ballot myself in the last session. I know what a privilege it is, but also quite how much work follows my private member's bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, concerned football, and between me and the right hon. Member, we've managed to cover two of my husband Martin's favourite things in life football and pubs. Two of my favourite things, however, are Amber Valley and its history, and so it gives me great pleasure to have the opportunity to speak about it today. It is a fact that my political journey to this place started in the Hunters Arms in Kilburn, a village in my constituency. When I agreed to put myself forward to be Labour's candidate in the general election. So it's an honour to represent the people of Amber Valley and to have the opportunity to speak of our heritage today.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yeah, yeah. The Bill centres on the importance of heritage and protecting buildings and places protecting buildings and places that matter to communities, whether because of the events that took place there, the people connected place there, the people connected to them, their architecture, or simply because they have stood at the heart of a community for generations. These places helped tell the story of who we are in supporting the principle behind supporting the principle behind this bill. I'm conscious that heritage takes many forms. Historic pubs are one important part of our built heritage, but they sit along castles, manor houses, theatres, cinemas, churches and industrial buildings that tell the story of our communities. Now, Amber Valley has no shortage of such places. We're fortunate to be home to Wingfield Manor, one of the most important surviving medieval manor houses in the country. Built in the 1440s and perhaps best known as one of the places where Mary Queen of Scots was held during her imprisonment. Today, the site remains closed to the public despite enormous local interest in seeing it reopened. And that's why I'm proud to be working alongside Derbyshire Historic Buildings Trust, which has successfully secured funding for a feasibility study to explore the future of the site with the ambition of ultimately acquiring Wingfield Manor and reopening this nationally significant heritage asset to the public. It's an exciting project, Madam Deputy Speaker, and one that I will continue championing. Likewise in Somercotes, the magnificent premier electric theatre remains one of the area's most striking reminders of its cultural history. Built in 1912, it served generations as a theatre, cinema and community venue before falling into disrepair. Today, local residents and Somercotes Parish Council are working incredibly hard to secure its future, and I've been pleased to support those efforts and hope to see the building restored as a multi-purpose community venue capable of hosting cinema screenings, theatre productions, live music and a wide range of community events. And who knows, Madam Deputy Speaker, maybe even a bar. It has enormous potential and would once again become a real asset for local people. And then there's the Hippodrome in Ripley. Opened in 191313. Sorry, it remains one of the town's most recognisable landmarks. Originally a theatre, then a cinema, a bingo hall and latterly a bar and nightclub called Tonka's. Well, much of the building has been converted into flats. The historic frontage still stands. Many residents raise with me their concerns about its condition and their hopes for its future. I share those concerns and hope that in the years ahead, we can find a positive, long term future for this important part of police heritage. All those campaigns, Madam Deputy Speaker, differ slightly in their details, but they share the common principle with the bill before us today that communities should have a stronger voice in protecting the places that matter to them. That's why I'm particularly supportive of measures that empower local people. Historic pubs already benefit from a range of protections. Demolition or change of use requires planning permission. Listed pubs enjoy additional statutory protections and local authorities have powers available to them through measures such as local heritage listings and building preservation notices. Where appropriate, communities can also act to protect the places that matter to them through the assets of community value regime, ensuring that valued local institutions receive proper consideration before they are lost. Many aspects of this bill build upon that existing framework and upon the wider direction of travel established through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. In particular, I welcome the government's introduction of the New Right to Buy communities, know that their local, know their local assets best, and it's only right that they're given a meaningful opportunity to step in where an important community asset may otherwise be lost. That point, of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
course. I thank the hon. Friend for giving way and for making such an excellent speech. I do declare an interest that the point I'm about to make, I know the person who runs to make, I know the person who runs a Patchworks, which is an evaluation consultancy, but they happened to do an evaluation report happened to do an evaluation report of a community owned pub in Tollerton. Now, this pub was due to close in 2019 and be turned into flats. In that evaluation report, it says that 84% of people said that since the pub had been taken into community ownership, it's a better place to live. 64% said it helped them make and maintain local friendships and in general it created trade, brought jobs and development opportunities for young people. So does she agree with the findings of this evaluation that there's a really good case for community ownership of our heritage pubs, and saving them from being closed and keeping them at the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
heart of our villages. Thank you to my friend, hon. Friend for for her intervention. I absolutely agree, and that example makes a powerful case for why it's makes a powerful case for why it's so important to allow and equip our local communities to to take community assets back into public use and to really celebrate them use and to really celebrate them and enjoy them as a local community. Madam Deputy Speaker, Taken together, the measures that I've mentioned recognise an important principle. Local people should have a stronger voice in shaping the future of the buildings and institutions that matter most to them. However, the provisions relating to the community right to buy, including the extension of the moratorium period, have yet to come into force. So, on behalf of the residents of Amber Valley, I would welcome an update from the Minister on when the necessary regulations and guidance will be published. Community groups across Amber Valley are keen to understand how these powers will operate in practice and, crucially, how soon they can make use of them and Madam Deputy Speaker. That is why I welcome the intention behind this Bill, and whilst I support the objective of protecting historic pubs, I think there is a broader point worth making. The significance of a pub is not simply found in the age of its bricks and mortar. It's found in the memories made there, in the conversations held in the bar and in the communities built around them. After all, heritage isn't just about buildings, it's about people. When people in Ambergate talk about the hurt arms, they're not simply talking about a Victorian inn. They're talking about a place that has formed part of community life for generations. Even its name tells a story, preserving the memory of the hurt family, whose influence on the area stretches back centuries. Although a lesser known story about the. The name of the pub involves a young me coming up with sillier and sillier names for the pub. As we drove past on our way to Matlock Bath for a day out, the sore legs being a favourite of mine back in the day. Now, when people in Riddings talk about the Moulders Arms, affectionately known as the Thack, they aren't simply talking about celebrating its grade two listed status or its distinction as Derbyshire's only thatched pub, they are celebrating a pub whose very name preserves the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Of course. He's talking about some outstanding pubs in her outstanding pubs in her constituency, but when she mentions the Hurt Arms, does she recognise that because it's neither listed as that because it's neither listed as an asset of community value, nor is it a registered listed building it a registered listed building with statutory protection? Actually, without the provisions in this bill, it would have next to no protections. Even after the improvements in the in the framework are without the provisions in this bill. And so will she think again and actually support it so that pubs in her constituency, like the Hurt Arms, can actually benefit from the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
community. Right to buy. She spoke of. Intervention and he knows that I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Intervention and he knows that I am supportive of the essence of the bill itself, where betide anybody who tried to take the hurt arms who tried to take the hurt arms away from the people of Amber Valley and I'll come on to the Pentrich revolution in a moment, Pentrich revolution in a moment, and you'll understand why I would never cross my people, my constituents in Amber Valley, particularly. Madam Deputy Speaker, if I take you back to the Mulder's arms. The. As I mentioned, the. Preserving the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge, helping to tell the story of the industry that helped build the modern Amber Valley. And then there's the Seven Sisters in Riddings, built on the site of a former chapel and dating back centuries, it later found itself connected to events surrounding the England's last armed uprising, the Pentridge Revolution, of 1817. Local authorities gathered information and monitored unrest, siting themselves within the pub as the as the rebellion unfolded nearby. If only. The Pentridge Brewing Company, which opened recently, had been around back then, maybe the men wouldn't have gotten as far as to get arrested. Even pub names, Madam Deputy Speaker, that have disappeared often linger in local memory. In parts of Amber Valley, residents still instinctively give directions using the Red Admiral, despite the pub becoming the poet's poet in Castle in Codnor many years ago. And that demonstrates something important. Heritage is not simply found in bricks and mortar. Sometimes it survives in memories, in stories and in the names that communities refuse to let go. Of course, not all pubs with community value are centuries old. Indeed, one of my concerns with debates such as this is that sometimes we risk implying that only old pubs are worth protecting, or indeed, that measures brought in with all good intention may actually stifle progress, particularly those buildings that have already fallen into disrepair. The truth is that today's community pub is tomorrow's heritage pub, and what matters most is whether it serves its community. Take the candle makers in Ripley. The building takes its name from its former life as a candle factory. Fortunately, the business. The. Fortunately for the business, the owners recognised that people in 2026 have rather less need for candles than their Victorian predecessors. They sent. They sensibly concluded that wine and tapas and bringing more people into Ripley town centre would probably do more for our local economy than trying to recreate the candle trade, as they proudly put it themselves. The business owners said. It was founded in 1830, reimagined for 2026, and that strikes me as a rather good description of what successful pubs have always done. They evolve, they adapt, they find new ways of bringing people together. And the same can be said for the Groovers Arms. MPs Hill near Ripley, formerly the beehive, a traditional Victorian pub. It's been transformed into something rather rather different because the main event now happens not in the Victorian building that still exists, but actually in a separate building at the end of the garden, and it's been transformed into something beautiful through live music, community events and Groove Fest, it has found new ways of serving local people and attracting visitors into the area. That adaptation in my submission, should be celebrated, not discouraged. Equally, some pubs thrive precisely because they combine heritage with modern community life. The Dead Poets, a village pub in Holbrook, is a multiple award winning pub and the current Derbyshire Camra pub of the year. It began life as the Cross Keys before being extensively restored, restored and reimagined. Today it hosts quizzes, poetry, events, festivals and community gatherings alongside serving exceptional real ale and cider. Its success demonstrates that protecting heritage is not about freezing buildings in time, it's about ensuring that historic places remain relevant, well used and valued by the communities around them. Likewise, newer venues such as Mary Lou's Smokehouse and Craft Bar in Ripley demonstrate how pubs continue to innovate from the outside. One might assume it's a traditional micropub, but step inside, however, and you'll find a large, vibrant venue hosting live country music, comedy nights, themed events, food and entertainment alongside its drinks offering. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I recently dropped in there with some members of Young Labour following a campaign session for which I had a quick drink. I then left them to it to enjoy themselves. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm in no position to confirm or deny whether any line dancing took place later that evening. You'd have to ask them. The same is true of Amber Valley growing micropub sector. Whether it's Tom said in Ripley or the tip in in Loscoe, these smaller venues are providing. Proving enormously popular because they offer something. People increasingly value character, conversation and community. Their buildings may not yet qualify as heritage assets, but they are already becoming community assets. That's why, while I support protecting historic pubs where appropriate, I believe we must also
**** Possible New Speaker ****
focus on helping pubs survive and thrive with. My friend is making a really important point because these newer venues are often in the places or doing delivering the services that doing delivering the services that the clientele want. So there's nothing wrong with preserving other buildings. But sometimes older pubs buildings. But sometimes older pubs can't always be preserved as pubs for all sorts of other reasons because of the development around the area or just changing demographics. So is there would you want to name as invidious to ask? An MP is a favourite modern pub in her constituency that she thinks should be an asset of community
**** Possible New Speaker ****
value? Thank you to to the hon. Member for her question. That does put me for her question. That does put me in somewhat of a delicate position, in somewhat of a delicate position, doesn't it? I do love all of the pubs in my my constituency, and I will probably leave it as tactfully will probably leave it as tactfully as that. I'm very lucky to have such wonderful pubs, including a lot of micro pubs coming up, one of which you'll hear more about shortly. Madam Deputy Speaker. As I as I say, we need to focus on helping all pubs survive and thrive. And when I met publicans from across Amber Valley earlier this year, I found people who were incredibly proud of what they do. They were proud of the jobs they create. They were proud of the role that they play in bringing communities together. But I would not describe them as being totally optimistic. They spoke candidly about rising costs, changing consumer habits and the pressures facing the sector, and many told me they were seeing drinking patterns shift, with customers increasingly using pubs earlier in the evening than less frequently late at night. They were adapting, as pubs always have, but they wanted government to recognise the challenges they face. That is why I welcome the support this government is providing and the government is introducing, of course, the community right to buy, giving communities a genuine opportunity to take ownership of valued local assets. And it's banning upward only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies, ending a practice that has too often left businesses facing rent increases, irrespective of wider economic conditions. And of course, it also announced a 20% reduction in business rate bills next year, a measure expected to save the typical pub around £1,000. None of these measures alone will solve every challenge facing the sector, but together they represent practical support both for pubs and the communities they serve. Now, if hon. Members are now thinking that Amber Valley appears to have an unusually impressive collection of pubs, then I can assure them that they are absolutely correct. Any members wishing to verify that claim for themselves would be most welcome to to visit. They will find a warm Derbyshire welcome, a rich industrial and social history and I would respectfully suggest some of the finest pubs anywhere in the country. After all. Come and see for yourself, members. After all, there are far worse ways to learn about the history of a place than spending a day exploring the pubs that have helped shape it. For those unable to make the journey immediately, there is another opportunity on the horizon. On the 3rd of November, I will have the pleasure of pulling a pint in stranger's bar of alter egos own brewed cask ale, Mr. Brown, produced by the fantastic team at the Tip Inn in Loscoe and selected a stranger's guest beer. I do hope that Mr. Brown is named after our
**** Possible New Speaker ****
former Prime Minister. I will. Ask. I hope members from across the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I hope members from across the House will give it a try. If they enjoy it, I hope it might encourage them to pay a visit to Amber Valley them to pay a visit to Amber Valley and experience the real thing for themselves. But ultimately, that brings me back to the bill before brings me back to the bill before us today. I support protecting historic pubs and protecting our heritage, but we should remember that pubs are about far more than the buildings they occupy.
The best way to preserve our pub heritage is not simply to prevent demolition or conversion, it's to ensure that pubs remain thriving, sustainable and well used parts of community life. Because a pub without people is simply a building, it is the community inside that gives it its value. And that's why, whilst I support the intention of the Bill, I hope we will continue to focus not only on preserving the pubs of the past, but on securing the future of all pubs that bring our communities together.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yeah, yeah. The Bill centres on the importance of heritage and protecting buildings and places protecting buildings and places that matter to communities, whether because of the events that took place there, the people connected place there, the people connected to them, their architecture, or simply because they have stood at the heart of a community for generations. These places helped tell the story of who we are in supporting the principle behind supporting the principle behind this bill. I'm conscious that heritage takes many forms. Historic pubs are one important part of our built heritage, but they sit along castles, manor houses, theatres, cinemas, churches and industrial buildings that tell the story of our communities. Now, Amber Valley has no shortage of such places. We're fortunate to be home to Wingfield Manor, one of the most important surviving medieval manor houses in the country. Built in the 1440s and perhaps best known as one of the places where Mary Queen of Scots was held during her imprisonment. Today, the site remains closed to the public despite enormous local interest in seeing it reopened. And that's why I'm proud to be working alongside Derbyshire Historic Buildings Trust, which has successfully secured funding for a feasibility study to explore the future of the site with the ambition of ultimately acquiring Wingfield Manor and reopening this nationally significant heritage asset to the public. It's an exciting project, Madam Deputy Speaker, and one that I will continue championing. Likewise in Somercotes, the magnificent premier electric theatre remains one of the area's most striking reminders of its cultural history. Built in 1912, it served generations as a theatre, cinema and community venue before falling into disrepair. Today, local residents and Somercotes Parish Council are working incredibly hard to secure its future, and I've been pleased to support those efforts and hope to see the building restored as a multi-purpose community venue capable of hosting cinema screenings, theatre productions, live music and a wide range of community events. And who knows, Madam Deputy Speaker, maybe even a bar. It has enormous potential and would once again become a real asset for local people. And then there's the Hippodrome in Ripley. Opened in 191313. Sorry, it remains one of the town's most recognisable landmarks. Originally a theatre, then a cinema, a bingo hall and latterly a bar and nightclub called Tonka's. Well, much of the building has been converted into flats. The historic frontage still stands. Many residents raise with me their concerns about its condition and their hopes for its future. I share those concerns and hope that in the years ahead, we can find a positive, long term future for this important part of police heritage. All those campaigns, Madam Deputy Speaker, differ slightly in their details, but they share the common principle with the bill before us today that communities should have a stronger voice in protecting the places that matter to them. That's why I'm particularly supportive of measures that empower local people. Historic pubs already benefit from a range of protections. Demolition or change of use requires planning permission. Listed pubs enjoy additional statutory protections and local authorities have powers available to them through measures such as local heritage listings and building preservation notices. Where appropriate, communities can also act to protect the places that matter to them through the assets of community value regime, ensuring that valued local institutions receive proper consideration before they are lost. Many aspects of this bill build upon that existing framework and upon the wider direction of travel established through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. In particular, I welcome the government's introduction of the New Right to Buy communities, know that their local, know their local assets best, and it's only right that they're given a meaningful opportunity to step in where an important community asset may otherwise be lost. That point, of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
course. I thank the hon. Friend for giving way and for making such an excellent speech. I do declare an interest that the point I'm about to make, I know the person who runs to make, I know the person who runs a Patchworks, which is an evaluation consultancy, but they happened to do an evaluation report happened to do an evaluation report of a community owned pub in Tollerton. Now, this pub was due to close in 2019 and be turned into flats. In that evaluation report, it says that 84% of people said that since the pub had been taken into community ownership, it's a better place to live. 64% said it helped them make and maintain local friendships and in general it created trade, brought jobs and development opportunities for young people. So does she agree with the findings of this evaluation that there's a really good case for community ownership of our heritage pubs, and saving them from being closed and keeping them at the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
heart of our villages. Thank you to my friend, hon. Friend for for her intervention. I absolutely agree, and that example makes a powerful case for why it's makes a powerful case for why it's so important to allow and equip our local communities to to take community assets back into public use and to really celebrate them use and to really celebrate them and enjoy them as a local community. Madam Deputy Speaker, Taken together, the measures that I've mentioned recognise an important principle. Local people should have a stronger voice in shaping the future of the buildings and institutions that matter most to them. However, the provisions relating to the community right to buy, including the extension of the moratorium period, have yet to come into force. So, on behalf of the residents of Amber Valley, I would welcome an update from the Minister on when the necessary regulations and guidance will be published. Community groups across Amber Valley are keen to understand how these powers will operate in practice and, crucially, how soon they can make use of them and Madam Deputy Speaker. That is why I welcome the intention behind this Bill, and whilst I support the objective of protecting historic pubs, I think there is a broader point worth making. The significance of a pub is not simply found in the age of its bricks and mortar. It's found in the memories made there, in the conversations held in the bar and in the communities built around them. After all, heritage isn't just about buildings, it's about people. When people in Ambergate talk about the hurt arms, they're not simply talking about a Victorian inn. They're talking about a place that has formed part of community life for generations. Even its name tells a story, preserving the memory of the hurt family, whose influence on the area stretches back centuries. Although a lesser known story about the. The name of the pub involves a young me coming up with sillier and sillier names for the pub. As we drove past on our way to Matlock Bath for a day out, the sore legs being a favourite of mine back in the day. Now, when people in Riddings talk about the Moulders Arms, affectionately known as the Thack, they aren't simply talking about celebrating its grade two listed status or its distinction as Derbyshire's only thatched pub, they are celebrating a pub whose very name preserves the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Of course. He's talking about some outstanding pubs in her outstanding pubs in her constituency, but when she mentions the Hurt Arms, does she recognise that because it's neither listed as that because it's neither listed as an asset of community value, nor is it a registered listed building it a registered listed building with statutory protection? Actually, without the provisions in this bill, it would have next to no protections. Even after the improvements in the in the framework are without the provisions in this bill. And so will she think again and actually support it so that pubs in her constituency, like the Hurt Arms, can actually benefit from the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
community. Right to buy. She spoke of. Intervention and he knows that I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Intervention and he knows that I am supportive of the essence of the bill itself, where betide anybody who tried to take the hurt arms who tried to take the hurt arms away from the people of Amber Valley and I'll come on to the Pentrich revolution in a moment, Pentrich revolution in a moment, and you'll understand why I would never cross my people, my constituents in Amber Valley, particularly. Madam Deputy Speaker, if I take you back to the Mulder's arms. The. As I mentioned, the. Preserving the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge, helping to tell the story of the industry that helped build the modern Amber Valley. And then there's the Seven Sisters in Riddings, built on the site of a former chapel and dating back centuries, it later found itself connected to events surrounding the England's last armed uprising, the Pentridge Revolution, of 1817. Local authorities gathered information and monitored unrest, siting themselves within the pub as the as the rebellion unfolded nearby. If only. The Pentridge Brewing Company, which opened recently, had been around back then, maybe the men wouldn't have gotten as far as to get arrested. Even pub names, Madam Deputy Speaker, that have disappeared often linger in local memory. In parts of Amber Valley, residents still instinctively give directions using the Red Admiral, despite the pub becoming the poet's poet in Castle in Codnor many years ago. And that demonstrates something important. Heritage is not simply found in bricks and mortar. Sometimes it survives in memories, in stories and in the names that communities refuse to let go. Of course, not all pubs with community value are centuries old. Indeed, one of my concerns with debates such as this is that sometimes we risk implying that only old pubs are worth protecting, or indeed, that measures brought in with all good intention may actually stifle progress, particularly those buildings that have already fallen into disrepair. The truth is that today's community pub is tomorrow's heritage pub, and what matters most is whether it serves its community. Take the candle makers in Ripley. The building takes its name from its former life as a candle factory. Fortunately, the business. The. Fortunately for the business, the owners recognised that people in 2026 have rather less need for candles than their Victorian predecessors. They sent. They sensibly concluded that wine and tapas and bringing more people into Ripley town centre would probably do more for our local economy than trying to recreate the candle trade, as they proudly put it themselves. The business owners said. It was founded in 1830, reimagined for 2026, and that strikes me as a rather good description of what successful pubs have always done. They evolve, they adapt, they find new ways of bringing people together. And the same can be said for the Groovers Arms. MPs Hill near Ripley, formerly the beehive, a traditional Victorian pub. It's been transformed into something rather rather different because the main event now happens not in the Victorian building that still exists, but actually in a separate building at the end of the garden, and it's been transformed into something beautiful through live music, community events and Groove Fest, it has found new ways of serving local people and attracting visitors into the area. That adaptation in my submission, should be celebrated, not discouraged. Equally, some pubs thrive precisely because they combine heritage with modern community life. The Dead Poets, a village pub in Holbrook, is a multiple award winning pub and the current Derbyshire Camra pub of the year. It began life as the Cross Keys before being extensively restored, restored and reimagined. Today it hosts quizzes, poetry, events, festivals and community gatherings alongside serving exceptional real ale and cider. Its success demonstrates that protecting heritage is not about freezing buildings in time, it's about ensuring that historic places remain relevant, well used and valued by the communities around them. Likewise, newer venues such as Mary Lou's Smokehouse and Craft Bar in Ripley demonstrate how pubs continue to innovate from the outside. One might assume it's a traditional micropub, but step inside, however, and you'll find a large, vibrant venue hosting live country music, comedy nights, themed events, food and entertainment alongside its drinks offering. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I recently dropped in there with some members of Young Labour following a campaign session for which I had a quick drink. I then left them to it to enjoy themselves. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm in no position to confirm or deny whether any line dancing took place later that evening. You'd have to ask them. The same is true of Amber Valley growing micropub sector. Whether it's Tom said in Ripley or the tip in in Loscoe, these smaller venues are providing. Proving enormously popular because they offer something. People increasingly value character, conversation and community. Their buildings may not yet qualify as heritage assets, but they are already becoming community assets. That's why, while I support protecting historic pubs where appropriate, I believe we must also
**** Possible New Speaker ****
focus on helping pubs survive and thrive with. My friend is making a really important point because these newer venues are often in the places or doing delivering the services that doing delivering the services that the clientele want. So there's nothing wrong with preserving other buildings. But sometimes older pubs buildings. But sometimes older pubs can't always be preserved as pubs for all sorts of other reasons because of the development around the area or just changing demographics. So is there would you want to name as invidious to ask? An MP is a favourite modern pub in her constituency that she thinks should be an asset of community
**** Possible New Speaker ****
value? Thank you to to the hon. Member for her question. That does put me for her question. That does put me in somewhat of a delicate position, in somewhat of a delicate position, doesn't it? I do love all of the pubs in my my constituency, and I will probably leave it as tactfully will probably leave it as tactfully as that. I'm very lucky to have such wonderful pubs, including a lot of micro pubs coming up, one of which you'll hear more about shortly. Madam Deputy Speaker. As I as I say, we need to focus on helping all pubs survive and thrive. And when I met publicans from across Amber Valley earlier this year, I found people who were incredibly proud of what they do. They were proud of the jobs they create. They were proud of the role that they play in bringing communities together. But I would not describe them as being totally optimistic. They spoke candidly about rising costs, changing consumer habits and the pressures facing the sector, and many told me they were seeing drinking patterns shift, with customers increasingly using pubs earlier in the evening than less frequently late at night. They were adapting, as pubs always have, but they wanted government to recognise the challenges they face. That is why I welcome the support this government is providing and the government is introducing, of course, the community right to buy, giving communities a genuine opportunity to take ownership of valued local assets. And it's banning upward only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies, ending a practice that has too often left businesses facing rent increases, irrespective of wider economic conditions. And of course, it also announced a 20% reduction in business rate bills next year, a measure expected to save the typical pub around £1,000. None of these measures alone will solve every challenge facing the sector, but together they represent practical support both for pubs and the communities they serve. Now, if hon. Members are now thinking that Amber Valley appears to have an unusually impressive collection of pubs, then I can assure them that they are absolutely correct. Any members wishing to verify that claim for themselves would be most welcome to to visit. They will find a warm Derbyshire welcome, a rich industrial and social history and I would respectfully suggest some of the finest pubs anywhere in the country. After all. Come and see for yourself, members. After all, there are far worse ways to learn about the history of a place than spending a day exploring the pubs that have helped shape it. For those unable to make the journey immediately, there is another opportunity on the horizon. On the 3rd of November, I will have the pleasure of pulling a pint in stranger's bar of alter egos own brewed cask ale, Mr. Brown, produced by the fantastic team at the Tip Inn in Loscoe and selected a stranger's guest beer. I do hope that Mr. Brown is named after our
**** Possible New Speaker ****
former Prime Minister. I will. Ask. I hope members from across the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I hope members from across the House will give it a try. If they enjoy it, I hope it might encourage them to pay a visit to Amber Valley them to pay a visit to Amber Valley and experience the real thing for themselves. But ultimately, that brings me back to the bill before brings me back to the bill before us today. I support protecting historic pubs and protecting our heritage, but we should remember that pubs are about far more than the buildings they occupy.
The best way to preserve our pub heritage is not simply to prevent demolition or conversion, it's to ensure that pubs remain thriving, sustainable and well used parts of community life. Because a pub without people is simply a building, it is the community inside that gives it its value. And that's why, whilst I support the intention of the Bill, I hope we will continue to focus not only on preserving the pubs of the past, but on securing the future of all pubs that bring our communities together.
12:11
Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)
-
-
Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)
Yes, Lincoln Jopp thank you, Madam Speaker. >> On my way home last night, I popped in at the Three Horseshoes popped in at the Three Horseshoes in Shepperton because it's on the way. And. And this morning when when I was driving into work with my wife, she said, oh, what are you doing in Parliament today? And I said, I am supporting the British pub industry. And she said deadpan, trust me, you're doing your bit already. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I just say the debate today has been quite long, and I would just like to draw attention to the comment by the member of Newcastle-under-Lyme, and I'd be very happy to take an intervention from him because I. The official figures are in. And having checked with Hansard, he. He mentioned Spelthorne in his speech more frequently than he mentioned his own constituency. So if he wants to stand up and intervene on me so he can say the name of his constituency a few more times just to even up the scores, I would, of course, take that intervention.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
And for giving way. It's a case of first time for everything. I don't think I can be accused of not making the case for Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I can, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
There are. There are many more colleagues in the chamber other than Mr. Adam Jogee Lincoln Jopp.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Jogee Lincoln Jopp. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. There is. Madam Deputy Speaker, you may or may not be aware that there is a rumour in the. At large in Parliament and alive in the tea rooms, and it is this that hon. Members only have to mention a name of a pub in their constituency, and then take the hard copy and send it to that pub of Hansard where that name is mentioned. And the next time that they go in there, they get a free pint. That that is, of course, that is, of course, completely untrue, a point that I've had to make to the landlord of the happy landing in Stanwell, the King Fairway and Ashford, the White horse in Sunbury and the Wheatsheaf and Pigeon on the Staines Leyland Road, a pub where I will be going tomorrow to lodge my Save Kempton Park banner for a week as it tours my Spelthorne constituency. The. I would like to congratulate the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this debate. I think she's not in her place anymore, but the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch. That was a genuine exchange of ideas as to whether the protections envisaged in this private member's bill are required, and the story of the crooked House is a is a salutary one. And I have a couple of well, I have a number of very historic pubs, including the Admiral Hall, an 18th century pub named after the former First Sea Lord and member of Parliament for Portsmouth and the Bells in Staines. And if. If they were to burn down under suspicious circumstances, they are neither listed nor are they assets of listed as assets of community value, so they would be further protected under this private member's bill. So I think there is merit. But the the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch said sort of her. So what from that was that? Well, we should all therefore be encouraging our communities to get together. If they do value their pubs and to have them registered as assets of community value. And that clearly isn't happening as much as the legislation perhaps envisaged, hence this private member's bill. But can I just make the observation that we call them an asset of community value with a big A, a big C and a big V? And normally we do that to try and protect them when they're in trouble. Let's take away the capital letters and just say that those pubs are assets of community value and encourage all of our people to invest in them by going to them. Because, tragically, the British Beer and Pub Association report that we are on track this year for losing a pub a day in Britain, 300 have closed in the first nine months of this year, and we've had not much of a sense of the the challenges that they face. But certainly I won't, you know, go too political on it. But the landlords I speak to are very aware of the additional challenges of business rates, minimum wage and employers, national insurance that they have been put under. But I do think that the the onus is on all of us. It's so tragic when a pub closes and everyone gets up in arms and I would ask, how often have you been there? And they'd say, oh, last went there last year. And, and pubs really need our help. And so I would, I actually, if this were to come to a vote, I would support the hon. Member's private member's bill, but I am delighted that we have had an opportunity to raise some of the issues of the British pub industry
**** Possible New Speaker ****
and the challenges that they face and the protections that they need. Thank you. Madam Lizzi Collinge.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Madam Lizzi Collinge. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Gentleman from Kingswinford hon. Gentleman from Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for raising the important issue of heritage pubs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I grew pubs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I grew up in a small village in north Cumbria. We were lucky enough to have two pubs, both of which I have two pubs, both of which I worked in as a teenager, most memorably one Christmas Day when I was presented with a Mrs. Santa Claus outfit to wear which, as a teenager more interested in heavy metal, was not something I was very pleased about. But these pubs were very important community hubs and I feel very lucky now to represent my constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale, which has many more excellent pubs than I could possibly mention. In one speech and before this debate, I went on Facebook to ask my constituents what their favourite heritage pub once was, and my comment section was absolutely inundated. It was fantastic to see the passion that my constituents have for their locals. So Morecambe and Lunesdale has dozens of great public houses, with many of them with beautiful heritage features or in important heritage settings. One of the pubs in my town of Heysham, the Old Hall Pub, is apparently the oldest
**** Possible New Speaker ****
dwelling in the borough of Morecambe and And was built in 1598. So from
**** Possible New Speaker ****
And was built in 1598. So from the Black Bull in Saidpur to the Royal in Hetian, perhaps via a Royal in Hetian, perhaps via a cheeky pint of Wainwright in. In The Albion in Arnside, looking across to the Lakeland fells or across to the Lakeland fells or even engaging in a West End wobble in the heart of Morecambe. Usually in the heart of Morecambe. Usually starting at the exchange. Of course, possibly popping into the Constitutional Club and also finding its way to the newly opened Prince Albert on Albert Road, which has a fantastic cellar that you wouldn't guess about from the outside. So we're spoilt for choice. And in fact, I invite any of the hon. Members here to come on a little pub crawl with me. I still maintain I have the most beautiful constituency in the country, and you'll get to see every corner of it. If you visit our pubs. I'll
**** Possible New Speaker ****
happily give way. I just wonder, on the many visits she's made to her fantastic visits she's made to her fantastic local pubs, whether she's actually enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire. Ale. enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire. Ale. And indeed, whether the excellent Saltaire Blonde brewed in the Saltaire Blonde brewed in the brewery in my constituency, named after the fantastic World Heritage Site, the village of Saltaire. Whether that, as it's distributed nationwide, has found it into any
**** Possible New Speaker ****
of her local heritage pubs. I thank the honourable. Lady for her intervention. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Lady for her intervention. I haven't tried the ale she mentions, and I do wonder whether those of us on the correct side of the Pennines on the correct side of the Pennines would welcome a Yorkshire drink or not, but I'm sure it is in, of not, but I'm sure it is in, of course, delicious and pubs are vital. Community assets, whether in Yorkshire, Lancashire or Westmorland, and British life often happens over a pint, maybe a bag of scampi, fries or even better, a packet of Lancashire crisps.
And my very tenuous claim to fame is that Wainwright Beer is named after my great great uncle, who was a fellow walker and writer, Alfred Wainwright, and he did enjoy a pint at the end of a walk, although I have to say his mother, who was a very strict teetotaller, would be turning in her grave at the idea of her son having a beer named after him. And I've spoken before in this place about the need to have spaces in our community where people can drop by, make them see a mate run into people they know, or even make new friends.
And as much as I love
**** Possible New Speaker ****
And for giving way. It's a case of first time for everything. I don't think I can be accused of not making the case for Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I can, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
There are. There are many more colleagues in the chamber other than Mr. Adam Jogee Lincoln Jopp.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Jogee Lincoln Jopp. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. There is. Madam Deputy Speaker, you may or may not be aware that there is a rumour in the. At large in Parliament and alive in the tea rooms, and it is this that hon. Members only have to mention a name of a pub in their constituency, and then take the hard copy and send it to that pub of Hansard where that name is mentioned. And the next time that they go in there, they get a free pint. That that is, of course, that is, of course, completely untrue, a point that I've had to make to the landlord of the happy landing in Stanwell, the King Fairway and Ashford, the White horse in Sunbury and the Wheatsheaf and Pigeon on the Staines Leyland Road, a pub where I will be going tomorrow to lodge my Save Kempton Park banner for a week as it tours my Spelthorne constituency. The. I would like to congratulate the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this debate. I think she's not in her place anymore, but the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch. That was a genuine exchange of ideas as to whether the protections envisaged in this private member's bill are required, and the story of the crooked House is a is a salutary one. And I have a couple of well, I have a number of very historic pubs, including the Admiral Hall, an 18th century pub named after the former First Sea Lord and member of Parliament for Portsmouth and the Bells in Staines. And if. If they were to burn down under suspicious circumstances, they are neither listed nor are they assets of listed as assets of community value, so they would be further protected under this private member's bill. So I think there is merit. But the the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch said sort of her. So what from that was that? Well, we should all therefore be encouraging our communities to get together. If they do value their pubs and to have them registered as assets of community value. And that clearly isn't happening as much as the legislation perhaps envisaged, hence this private member's bill. But can I just make the observation that we call them an asset of community value with a big A, a big C and a big V? And normally we do that to try and protect them when they're in trouble. Let's take away the capital letters and just say that those pubs are assets of community value and encourage all of our people to invest in them by going to them. Because, tragically, the British Beer and Pub Association report that we are on track this year for losing a pub a day in Britain, 300 have closed in the first nine months of this year, and we've had not much of a sense of the the challenges that they face. But certainly I won't, you know, go too political on it. But the landlords I speak to are very aware of the additional challenges of business rates, minimum wage and employers, national insurance that they have been put under. But I do think that the the onus is on all of us. It's so tragic when a pub closes and everyone gets up in arms and I would ask, how often have you been there? And they'd say, oh, last went there last year. And, and pubs really need our help. And so I would, I actually, if this were to come to a vote, I would support the hon. Member's private member's bill, but I am delighted that we have had an opportunity to raise some of the issues of the British pub industry
**** Possible New Speaker ****
and the challenges that they face and the protections that they need. Thank you. Madam Lizzi Collinge.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Madam Lizzi Collinge. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Gentleman from Kingswinford hon. Gentleman from Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for raising the important issue of heritage pubs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I grew pubs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I grew up in a small village in north Cumbria. We were lucky enough to have two pubs, both of which I have two pubs, both of which I worked in as a teenager, most memorably one Christmas Day when I was presented with a Mrs. Santa Claus outfit to wear which, as a teenager more interested in heavy metal, was not something I was very pleased about. But these pubs were very important community hubs and I feel very lucky now to represent my constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale, which has many more excellent pubs than I could possibly mention. In one speech and before this debate, I went on Facebook to ask my constituents what their favourite heritage pub once was, and my comment section was absolutely inundated. It was fantastic to see the passion that my constituents have for their locals. So Morecambe and Lunesdale has dozens of great public houses, with many of them with beautiful heritage features or in important heritage settings. One of the pubs in my town of Heysham, the Old Hall Pub, is apparently the oldest
**** Possible New Speaker ****
dwelling in the borough of Morecambe and And was built in 1598. So from
**** Possible New Speaker ****
And was built in 1598. So from the Black Bull in Saidpur to the Royal in Hetian, perhaps via a Royal in Hetian, perhaps via a cheeky pint of Wainwright in. In The Albion in Arnside, looking across to the Lakeland fells or across to the Lakeland fells or even engaging in a West End wobble in the heart of Morecambe. Usually in the heart of Morecambe. Usually starting at the exchange. Of course, possibly popping into the Constitutional Club and also finding its way to the newly opened Prince Albert on Albert Road, which has a fantastic cellar that you wouldn't guess about from the outside. So we're spoilt for choice. And in fact, I invite any of the hon. Members here to come on a little pub crawl with me. I still maintain I have the most beautiful constituency in the country, and you'll get to see every corner of it. If you visit our pubs. I'll
**** Possible New Speaker ****
happily give way. I just wonder, on the many visits she's made to her fantastic visits she's made to her fantastic local pubs, whether she's actually enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire. Ale. enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire. Ale. And indeed, whether the excellent Saltaire Blonde brewed in the Saltaire Blonde brewed in the brewery in my constituency, named after the fantastic World Heritage Site, the village of Saltaire. Whether that, as it's distributed nationwide, has found it into any
**** Possible New Speaker ****
of her local heritage pubs. I thank the honourable. Lady for her intervention. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Lady for her intervention. I haven't tried the ale she mentions, and I do wonder whether those of us on the correct side of the Pennines on the correct side of the Pennines would welcome a Yorkshire drink or not, but I'm sure it is in, of not, but I'm sure it is in, of course, delicious and pubs are vital. Community assets, whether in Yorkshire, Lancashire or Westmorland, and British life often happens over a pint, maybe a bag of scampi, fries or even better, a packet of Lancashire crisps.
And my very tenuous claim to fame is that Wainwright Beer is named after my great great uncle, who was a fellow walker and writer, Alfred Wainwright, and he did enjoy a pint at the end of a walk, although I have to say his mother, who was a very strict teetotaller, would be turning in her grave at the idea of her son having a beer named after him. And I've spoken before in this place about the need to have spaces in our community where people can drop by, make them see a mate run into people they know, or even make new friends.
And as much as I love
12:20
Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)
-
-
Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)
the great coffee shops in my constituency, like the Salty Bean, or maybe something a bit more traditional like Lewes, which has many heritage features, I say you can't beat a swift half at the can't beat a swift half at the dispensary at the end of a long week. And it's not just about community. But I will come back to community. But I will come back to that. It's also about the conserving the important architectural and cultural architectural and cultural buildings like the Tivoli Bar in Morecambe, which was named for the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen. It closed a few years ago now, but I remember the inside of it being absolutely stunning. The Tivoli and also the Queen's Hotel in Morecambe could be fantastic assets to our town and be an example of heritage buildings being preserved and put to good use, but instead they lie neglected. Now the Tivoli is owned by Sam Smith's Brewery and despite Morgan and I trying to get them and other absent landlords to engage on how we get more buildings open and working again, we didn't unfortunately get any engagement from the brewery when we wrote to them back in February. Now the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Queen's. I'll happily give way. Is an important point about pubs that are long left derelict in my constituency of Halesowen. The old Queen's Head, right in the in the town centre, had been derelict for a while, but there's an excellent a while, but there's an excellent community group called Stepping Out, which supports young disabled people to get out and around the people to get out and around the town. And whilst it's not a heritage pub, the fact that it's now being repurposed to be a community centre I think is a is a fantastic use of a venue that otherwise will go to waste. She has got such examples in her own
**** Possible New Speaker ****
constituency. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Gentleman. He's, of course, put me on the spot He's, of course, put me on the spot and I cannot remember a single example now, although I know there are everywhere. But the point he makes, the point he makes about reuse of buildings is actually really important. And it will come really important. And it will come back to that later. Because whilst back to that later. Because whilst I think where we can keep pubs as pubs times change, things change. And actually in preserving those buildings for the use of the community, whether that's pub or not, is really important. And I would thank the group in his constituency for doing that. So the Queen's Hotel in Morecambe recently changed hands, so I really want to wait and see what happens with that. But it has been a long time that it's been sat neglected and this has a huge impact on how people feel about their town, and also on the businesses and landlords who make a huge effort to keep their buildings in really good condition. It's not fair that they should have to be next to these eyesores. And I just want to take a moment. Madam Deputy Speaker, to talk about the business community across Morecambe and Lunesdale, particularly Morecambe, bid for their work in the town. I meet local businesses every week and without doubt they are a key part of what makes a community thrive. We have loads, loads of local businesses who are absolutely wedded to the community part of it and who do a lot to support it. For example, I recently met with Vicky Edwards, who is a breast cancer survivor, and she's raising money for Cancer Care, a fantastic local charity that supports families affected by cancer. Now, Vicky was supported in her campaign by 14 local pubs. Every venue had a collection box and leaflets on Know Your Normal, which is a Breast Cancer Now campaign to help people detect suspected breast and chest cancers earlier. And many of these pubs also ran their own fundraising events for cancer care. So I want to recognise the Morecambe pubs that supported Vicky there, the Pier Hotel, Soul Bowl, Palatine Bull Hotel, Fisherman's Square, The Chief Hotel, The Royal Bar and Shaker, The Crown Hotel, Harry's Bar, The York, Oh, Nellie's Brittle Star Wine Bar, the Pestle and Mortar and the Hurley Flyer. And I think actually, there might have been even more pubs that helped out. But that's a list that was in my local newspaper, so I'm sticking to it. They, as always, showed the best of British businesses. I also want to talk about the staff that work in these pubs. In heritage pubs, often very narrow staircases, very low levelled cellars. I've worked in many a pub and actually I met my husband when he was running the Britannia in Lancaster and a Victorian pub that is now a block of flats. Stafford pubs work very hard, often anti-social hours, and have to sometimes deal with some interesting customers, which I. Which is why I'm very proud that they now have much better employment protection through our Employment Rights Act and particularly the improved sick pay situation. And of course, the increase to the minimum wage. I spent many years Madam Deputy Speaker working on the minimum wage and and it's an absolutely essential part of making sure that all the people who work hard for a living are rewarded for that. So I remember the long hours, the hard work, the occasionally tricky customer, the glass, the glass washer breaking, of course, on the busiest day of the week or the beer delivery being late. But I remember the joy as well, not only meeting my husband, of course, but the wider friendships we built. The flatmates of the pub, Steffi, Jay, Jade and Chris. Those late night chats definitely not lock ins. We never did that. I still occasionally pop over to Lancaster and drop into the Gregson Centre. Originally built in 1889 for the community. I worked there twice in 20 years later, I still see regulars that I used to serve. In fact, one of the regulars, toddler sons who I swear should still be three years old, was actually recently on University Challenge, and I'm sure he's very proud of her son for that. That work history is very handy when you're visiting local pubs in your constituency. They set you up with a pint glass, a real ale pump and a glint in their eye because they're clearly expecting the local MP to make a right, frothy mess of that pint. I particularly remember a visit before the election to the Royal in Bolton, Le Sands, with my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey. And I have to say, I do pour a better pint than the hon. Lady and a proper northern pike with a creamy head. None of this southern nonsense with no sprinkler taps on. I'm not having that. It's just absolutely wrong. Turning to the provisions in today's bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the bill obviously has a good intent, and I share the hon. Gentleman's desire to protect our heritage pubs and our heritage buildings. I mentioned the Tivoli and Morecambe and that Victorian pub where I met my husband now flats, and they're just two examples. I do have some concerns about the aspects of the bill. I mean, I, I don't want to create more bureaucracy in the planning system. I think one of the great achievements of this government will be having a planning system that works to protect our assets, but actually isn't overly complicated and over expensive. Now, 70% of planning authorities in England already have heritage lists, and 11,000 of the listed buildings are pubs or inns, so the pubs are already afforded strong protections through the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
planning system. I will happily give honourable. Gentleman at the local heritage listing. Does she recognise that listing. Does she recognise that that does not protect the interior of pubs? It doesn't stop anyone from going into any of those pubs from going into any of those pubs tomorrow ripping out the historic beams, the fittings, anything that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
is not physically part of the bricks and mortar of the building, more or less. I'm the hon. Gentleman for his
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and that is very interesting. Important point actually. And I think I mentioned later in my speech the importance of when pubs are renovated or any buildings renovated, we retain those additional features. So, you know, I, I, I give that he makes a very important point there. But as he knows, proposals to demolish or change the use of pub already require a planning application. They're deliberately excluded from permitting relevant political development rights. And that does allow local authorities, through the planning committee, to consider the full impact of the proposals. They do have the powers to issue an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. I appreciate that in the hon. Gentleman's case and the crooked House, that was far too late. And and I really do share the despair he must have felt at that happening. We've talked about the heritage lists, pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection, of course, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension which affect the listed buildings, character, appearance and failure. Of course, to obtain listed building consent is an offence and I just want to say that I thoroughly support local authorities that fully enforce all planning consents and all building regulations. There was actually a pub in the area that I was a county councillor in. It was changed into flats, but frankly the developer had no respect for the planning process, no respect for local people consistently and fragrantly breached the planning consent he had been given and I would support much stronger powers to actually
**** Possible New Speaker ****
prevent people like that being able to develop in the future. Why don't we give way? Give way?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I had a. Similar planning challenge in my constituency where a a supporting constituency where a a supporting wall has been built above a housing development and has collapsed, and development and has collapsed, and residents in that area in a new build development have spent two years now waiting for that wall to years now waiting for that wall to be fixed without any access to their properties, without any action by the development to the developer to rectify that situation. I think there are real challenges with rogue developers, not just in the crooked House case, but across the board. Is there anything else that the government could be doing
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to challenge these kind of situations? With her experience of planning? I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He's absolutely his intervention. He's absolutely right, and his case actually reminds me of a visit I did just a couple of weeks ago to a block of couple of weeks ago to a block of flats in Arnside. Their balconies have been deemed unsafe and the developer is. And the property developer is. And the property management company are both trying to charge a huge amount of money to residents because they haven't created a proper sinking fund and also dragging their feet on everyday maintenance as well as safety issues. So I think there is more we could do. I know we are bringing in great reforms to things like leasehold and other matters, and I think the principle is that if you are responsible for something, you should take responsibility and you should actually fix the mess you've made. So I'd absolutely support him in that. So there are also measures, of course, for communities to take through the assets of community values, which was introduced by the government in 2011, and local authorities are responsible for ensuring that Assets of Community Value scheme is run in accordance with that legislation. And I do think rather than adding to the planning regime, it's more important to make sure that we're supporting pubs through everyday policy so they can thrive and ask any owner and they can tell you about the rising operating costs, particularly energy and changing alcohol consumption habits, which do make it harder to make a profit. And, you know, we know that the government is taking action on this as a member of the Energy Security and Net Zero Select Committee. We speak often about business energy costs, and I'd like to flag the importance of the Clean Energy 2030 mission to the survival of pubs and other businesses. You know, when we go in a pub, we want it to be warm. We want it to be nice. That does mean that they have very high energy costs. And so the work we are doing as a government to decouple the price of electricity from the price of gas, which is set internationally and damaged, of course, by international events, is really, really important. And now the more specifically to pubs, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 will ban the use of upwards only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies. These clauses have meant that rents can only ever stay the same or rise, regardless of market conditions. Now, pubs that are signed up to the Pub Code do already receive this protection, but the ban will mean that this protection will be extended to heritage pubs. Further, increasing support for these really important institutions. I was also really pleased to see the government announced the 20% discount rate for business rates discount for pubs, clubs and entertainment venues which have helped to give them some breathing space. I would point out that there are other businesses that are very similar to pubs, like the Avanti restaurant that I visited in Kirkby Lonsdale, and whose owner very kindly brought together a group of local business people for my for me to speak with. And they were very much like to see parity on this tax relief. I'd also encourage pubs, of course, to check that they're eligible for the £61 million Community Right to Buy fund the government has rolled out. So that's funding for people in deprived areas to take over community assets. That's my hon. Friend was talking about before. So rather than relying on planning protection, which can be slow, these measures give community agency over a place and the opportunity to operate those assets successfully. There's also the pub in the hub programme, which helps pubs in rural areas like mine diversify, and that's backed by £3 million of government funding. Community ownership and engagement is really important to this government and it's strengthened this further through those provisions of the English Devolution Community Empowerment Act 2026. That's going to introduce a new community right to buy and give communities real power of ownership. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase and 12 months to raise funding, which is a significant improvement. Local communities should determine which spaces and places are most important to them, and we know a growing number of local residents across the country are stepping into that gap and saving those heritage assets. There's some brilliant groups like that in Morecambe and Lunesdale, so I really I just want to give a specific mention to the Save Our Son campaign in dent. Dent is a beautiful village nestled in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, which means I have three planning authorities in my constituency, so that's always fun. But to Save our Son campaign in dent has pulled together the community to save the son in. And I just want to put my on record, my thanks and Save Our Son group. They have done an absolutely fantastic job and I was pleased recently to hear they
**** Possible New Speaker ****
progressed a little further. Other place. I'll happily give. Way. Are particularly pleased to hear
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Are particularly pleased to hear that she's backing saving a pub in that she's backing saving a pub in Beautiful dent. Obviously the Yorkshire The Dales Way links parts Yorkshire The Dales Way links parts of my constituency through to hers and I think sometimes we forget that these heritage pubs not only that these heritage pubs not only are part of the local community, but they also provide a fantastic resting place for those who are visitors to our areas, enjoying walking in our beautiful countryside. One such pub with a very long heritage tradition is Dick Hudson's in Bingley, which also lies on the edge of a popular walking route. So does she agree that these pubs that we want to save them not only for local
**** Possible New Speaker ****
communities, but for all those who come and visit our areas to enjoy them? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. And actually, dent is a prime example of places where prime example of places where visitors come. You know, I have so many fantastic places for visitors, whether that's the front at Morecambe, which of course is Morecambe, which of course is getting Eden Project, Morecambe Beautiful Arnside. As I mentioned before, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, before, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, the whole of the Yorkshire Dales National Park and you know, the the businesses that serve our communities all year round also serve visitors. And I think our a fantastic, fantastic spokespeople for our area showing the quality of our local produce as well, which is really important. So on the provisions of the statutory Register proposed in the bill, I'd, I'd, I'd really want to know that it would create some meaningful protection and not add another layer of bureaucracy. You know, I want I want pubs to be live assets as well. I, I think I talked earlier about the fact that buildings will change over time. Our heritage, our communities are not static things. And from an architectural and heritage point of view, what's really important is their character is not lost. If something's sitting there in its original state, but that original state is mouldering, that's not actually a good thing. So preserving those features is really important and that any upgrades or renovations are done sympathetically and in keeping. I recently visited the Royal Oak in Burton in my constituency, and they've done a fantastic renovation, which very sympathetic to the original original building. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want us to keep our pubs open and running, preserve these historical buildings for future generations and where owners choose to leave it possible
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that they have new life. Thank you. Yeah. Markus Campbell-Savours thank
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Markus Campbell-Savours thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I begin by congratulating the hon. Member, by congratulating the hon. Member, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, on bringing forward the Heritage Public Houses Bill. I bow to his superior knowledge on pubs, both heritage and modern, and don't doubt how thorough his research methods have been. This is an issue of enormous importance, particularly for rural constituencies such as Penrith and
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Queen's. I'll happily give way. Is an important point about pubs that are long left derelict in my constituency of Halesowen. The old Queen's Head, right in the in the town centre, had been derelict for a while, but there's an excellent a while, but there's an excellent community group called Stepping Out, which supports young disabled people to get out and around the people to get out and around the town. And whilst it's not a heritage pub, the fact that it's now being repurposed to be a community centre I think is a is a fantastic use of a venue that otherwise will go to waste. She has got such examples in her own
**** Possible New Speaker ****
constituency. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Gentleman. He's, of course, put me on the spot He's, of course, put me on the spot and I cannot remember a single example now, although I know there are everywhere. But the point he makes, the point he makes about reuse of buildings is actually really important. And it will come really important. And it will come back to that later. Because whilst back to that later. Because whilst I think where we can keep pubs as pubs times change, things change. And actually in preserving those buildings for the use of the community, whether that's pub or not, is really important. And I would thank the group in his constituency for doing that. So the Queen's Hotel in Morecambe recently changed hands, so I really want to wait and see what happens with that. But it has been a long time that it's been sat neglected and this has a huge impact on how people feel about their town, and also on the businesses and landlords who make a huge effort to keep their buildings in really good condition. It's not fair that they should have to be next to these eyesores. And I just want to take a moment. Madam Deputy Speaker, to talk about the business community across Morecambe and Lunesdale, particularly Morecambe, bid for their work in the town. I meet local businesses every week and without doubt they are a key part of what makes a community thrive. We have loads, loads of local businesses who are absolutely wedded to the community part of it and who do a lot to support it. For example, I recently met with Vicky Edwards, who is a breast cancer survivor, and she's raising money for Cancer Care, a fantastic local charity that supports families affected by cancer. Now, Vicky was supported in her campaign by 14 local pubs. Every venue had a collection box and leaflets on Know Your Normal, which is a Breast Cancer Now campaign to help people detect suspected breast and chest cancers earlier. And many of these pubs also ran their own fundraising events for cancer care. So I want to recognise the Morecambe pubs that supported Vicky there, the Pier Hotel, Soul Bowl, Palatine Bull Hotel, Fisherman's Square, The Chief Hotel, The Royal Bar and Shaker, The Crown Hotel, Harry's Bar, The York, Oh, Nellie's Brittle Star Wine Bar, the Pestle and Mortar and the Hurley Flyer. And I think actually, there might have been even more pubs that helped out. But that's a list that was in my local newspaper, so I'm sticking to it. They, as always, showed the best of British businesses. I also want to talk about the staff that work in these pubs. In heritage pubs, often very narrow staircases, very low levelled cellars. I've worked in many a pub and actually I met my husband when he was running the Britannia in Lancaster and a Victorian pub that is now a block of flats. Stafford pubs work very hard, often anti-social hours, and have to sometimes deal with some interesting customers, which I. Which is why I'm very proud that they now have much better employment protection through our Employment Rights Act and particularly the improved sick pay situation. And of course, the increase to the minimum wage. I spent many years Madam Deputy Speaker working on the minimum wage and and it's an absolutely essential part of making sure that all the people who work hard for a living are rewarded for that. So I remember the long hours, the hard work, the occasionally tricky customer, the glass, the glass washer breaking, of course, on the busiest day of the week or the beer delivery being late. But I remember the joy as well, not only meeting my husband, of course, but the wider friendships we built. The flatmates of the pub, Steffi, Jay, Jade and Chris. Those late night chats definitely not lock ins. We never did that. I still occasionally pop over to Lancaster and drop into the Gregson Centre. Originally built in 1889 for the community. I worked there twice in 20 years later, I still see regulars that I used to serve. In fact, one of the regulars, toddler sons who I swear should still be three years old, was actually recently on University Challenge, and I'm sure he's very proud of her son for that. That work history is very handy when you're visiting local pubs in your constituency. They set you up with a pint glass, a real ale pump and a glint in their eye because they're clearly expecting the local MP to make a right, frothy mess of that pint. I particularly remember a visit before the election to the Royal in Bolton, Le Sands, with my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey. And I have to say, I do pour a better pint than the hon. Lady and a proper northern pike with a creamy head. None of this southern nonsense with no sprinkler taps on. I'm not having that. It's just absolutely wrong. Turning to the provisions in today's bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the bill obviously has a good intent, and I share the hon. Gentleman's desire to protect our heritage pubs and our heritage buildings. I mentioned the Tivoli and Morecambe and that Victorian pub where I met my husband now flats, and they're just two examples. I do have some concerns about the aspects of the bill. I mean, I, I don't want to create more bureaucracy in the planning system. I think one of the great achievements of this government will be having a planning system that works to protect our assets, but actually isn't overly complicated and over expensive. Now, 70% of planning authorities in England already have heritage lists, and 11,000 of the listed buildings are pubs or inns, so the pubs are already afforded strong protections through the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
planning system. I will happily give honourable. Gentleman at the local heritage listing. Does she recognise that listing. Does she recognise that that does not protect the interior of pubs? It doesn't stop anyone from going into any of those pubs from going into any of those pubs tomorrow ripping out the historic beams, the fittings, anything that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
is not physically part of the bricks and mortar of the building, more or less. I'm the hon. Gentleman for his
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and that is very interesting. Important point actually. And I think I mentioned later in my speech the importance of when pubs are renovated or any buildings renovated, we retain those additional features. So, you know, I, I, I give that he makes a very important point there. But as he knows, proposals to demolish or change the use of pub already require a planning application. They're deliberately excluded from permitting relevant political development rights. And that does allow local authorities, through the planning committee, to consider the full impact of the proposals. They do have the powers to issue an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. I appreciate that in the hon. Gentleman's case and the crooked House, that was far too late. And and I really do share the despair he must have felt at that happening. We've talked about the heritage lists, pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection, of course, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension which affect the listed buildings, character, appearance and failure. Of course, to obtain listed building consent is an offence and I just want to say that I thoroughly support local authorities that fully enforce all planning consents and all building regulations. There was actually a pub in the area that I was a county councillor in. It was changed into flats, but frankly the developer had no respect for the planning process, no respect for local people consistently and fragrantly breached the planning consent he had been given and I would support much stronger powers to actually
**** Possible New Speaker ****
prevent people like that being able to develop in the future. Why don't we give way? Give way?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I had a. Similar planning challenge in my constituency where a a supporting constituency where a a supporting wall has been built above a housing development and has collapsed, and development and has collapsed, and residents in that area in a new build development have spent two years now waiting for that wall to years now waiting for that wall to be fixed without any access to their properties, without any action by the development to the developer to rectify that situation. I think there are real challenges with rogue developers, not just in the crooked House case, but across the board. Is there anything else that the government could be doing
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to challenge these kind of situations? With her experience of planning? I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He's absolutely his intervention. He's absolutely right, and his case actually reminds me of a visit I did just a couple of weeks ago to a block of couple of weeks ago to a block of flats in Arnside. Their balconies have been deemed unsafe and the developer is. And the property developer is. And the property management company are both trying to charge a huge amount of money to residents because they haven't created a proper sinking fund and also dragging their feet on everyday maintenance as well as safety issues. So I think there is more we could do. I know we are bringing in great reforms to things like leasehold and other matters, and I think the principle is that if you are responsible for something, you should take responsibility and you should actually fix the mess you've made. So I'd absolutely support him in that. So there are also measures, of course, for communities to take through the assets of community values, which was introduced by the government in 2011, and local authorities are responsible for ensuring that Assets of Community Value scheme is run in accordance with that legislation. And I do think rather than adding to the planning regime, it's more important to make sure that we're supporting pubs through everyday policy so they can thrive and ask any owner and they can tell you about the rising operating costs, particularly energy and changing alcohol consumption habits, which do make it harder to make a profit. And, you know, we know that the government is taking action on this as a member of the Energy Security and Net Zero Select Committee. We speak often about business energy costs, and I'd like to flag the importance of the Clean Energy 2030 mission to the survival of pubs and other businesses. You know, when we go in a pub, we want it to be warm. We want it to be nice. That does mean that they have very high energy costs. And so the work we are doing as a government to decouple the price of electricity from the price of gas, which is set internationally and damaged, of course, by international events, is really, really important. And now the more specifically to pubs, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 will ban the use of upwards only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies. These clauses have meant that rents can only ever stay the same or rise, regardless of market conditions. Now, pubs that are signed up to the Pub Code do already receive this protection, but the ban will mean that this protection will be extended to heritage pubs. Further, increasing support for these really important institutions. I was also really pleased to see the government announced the 20% discount rate for business rates discount for pubs, clubs and entertainment venues which have helped to give them some breathing space. I would point out that there are other businesses that are very similar to pubs, like the Avanti restaurant that I visited in Kirkby Lonsdale, and whose owner very kindly brought together a group of local business people for my for me to speak with. And they were very much like to see parity on this tax relief. I'd also encourage pubs, of course, to check that they're eligible for the £61 million Community Right to Buy fund the government has rolled out. So that's funding for people in deprived areas to take over community assets. That's my hon. Friend was talking about before. So rather than relying on planning protection, which can be slow, these measures give community agency over a place and the opportunity to operate those assets successfully. There's also the pub in the hub programme, which helps pubs in rural areas like mine diversify, and that's backed by £3 million of government funding. Community ownership and engagement is really important to this government and it's strengthened this further through those provisions of the English Devolution Community Empowerment Act 2026. That's going to introduce a new community right to buy and give communities real power of ownership. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase and 12 months to raise funding, which is a significant improvement. Local communities should determine which spaces and places are most important to them, and we know a growing number of local residents across the country are stepping into that gap and saving those heritage assets. There's some brilliant groups like that in Morecambe and Lunesdale, so I really I just want to give a specific mention to the Save Our Son campaign in dent. Dent is a beautiful village nestled in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, which means I have three planning authorities in my constituency, so that's always fun. But to Save our Son campaign in dent has pulled together the community to save the son in. And I just want to put my on record, my thanks and Save Our Son group. They have done an absolutely fantastic job and I was pleased recently to hear they
**** Possible New Speaker ****
progressed a little further. Other place. I'll happily give. Way. Are particularly pleased to hear
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Are particularly pleased to hear that she's backing saving a pub in that she's backing saving a pub in Beautiful dent. Obviously the Yorkshire The Dales Way links parts Yorkshire The Dales Way links parts of my constituency through to hers and I think sometimes we forget that these heritage pubs not only that these heritage pubs not only are part of the local community, but they also provide a fantastic resting place for those who are visitors to our areas, enjoying walking in our beautiful countryside. One such pub with a very long heritage tradition is Dick Hudson's in Bingley, which also lies on the edge of a popular walking route. So does she agree that these pubs that we want to save them not only for local
**** Possible New Speaker ****
communities, but for all those who come and visit our areas to enjoy them? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. And actually, dent is a prime example of places where prime example of places where visitors come. You know, I have so many fantastic places for visitors, whether that's the front at Morecambe, which of course is Morecambe, which of course is getting Eden Project, Morecambe Beautiful Arnside. As I mentioned before, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, before, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, the whole of the Yorkshire Dales National Park and you know, the the businesses that serve our communities all year round also serve visitors. And I think our a fantastic, fantastic spokespeople for our area showing the quality of our local produce as well, which is really important. So on the provisions of the statutory Register proposed in the bill, I'd, I'd, I'd really want to know that it would create some meaningful protection and not add another layer of bureaucracy. You know, I want I want pubs to be live assets as well. I, I think I talked earlier about the fact that buildings will change over time. Our heritage, our communities are not static things. And from an architectural and heritage point of view, what's really important is their character is not lost. If something's sitting there in its original state, but that original state is mouldering, that's not actually a good thing. So preserving those features is really important and that any upgrades or renovations are done sympathetically and in keeping. I recently visited the Royal Oak in Burton in my constituency, and they've done a fantastic renovation, which very sympathetic to the original original building. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want us to keep our pubs open and running, preserve these historical buildings for future generations and where owners choose to leave it possible
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that they have new life. Thank you. Yeah. Markus Campbell-Savours thank
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Markus Campbell-Savours thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I begin by congratulating the hon. Member, by congratulating the hon. Member, the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, on bringing forward the Heritage Public Houses Bill. I bow to his superior knowledge on pubs, both heritage and modern, and don't doubt how thorough his research methods have been. This is an issue of enormous importance, particularly for rural constituencies such as Penrith and
12:38
Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)
-
-
Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)
Solway, where the village pub is often much more than simply business. The bill would establish business. The bill would establish local authority registers of heritage public houses, introduce restrictions on their sale and restrictions on their sale and create additional protections within the planning system. In many of our villages, the pub sits at of our villages, the pub sits at the heart of community life. It's where neighbours meet, where local groups gather, where funds are raised for worthy causes, and where raised for worthy causes, and where people maintain the social bonds that hold communities together. The loss of a village pub can be devastating. It can fundamentally change the character of an area and leave a void that is never truly filled. I therefore understand entirely the motivation behind this bill and the desire to ensure that valued pubs are not unnecessarily lost. However, I wish to focus my remarks on those provisions of the Bill that contain similar principles to the Asset of Community Value Framework, particularly the restrictions on sale and opportunities for community acquisition. As I understand it, under the bill, owners of a registered heritage public house could be subject to a process including a full moratorium period of up to 12 months before a sale can proceed. In certain circumstances. The question I have is a practical one what happens when a community wishes to buy a pub, has local support, has a business plan, but needs time and financial support to complete the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
purchase. The success of these. Please gentlemen, for the species making it so. It's a species making it so. It's a reasonable question and the answer is that in the bill it's exactly the same procedure and timelines as the government introduced for community value in the English community value in the English Devolution Act. So community groups will have eight weeks to register an expression of interest and then an expression of interest and then up to 18 months to get that bid together to complete the negotiations. And as I said, if they're not able to agree the price because of an unreasonable demand from the seller, then just as with assets of community value, the independent valuer can set the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
price. For the intervention. And my my criticisms of the bill may go beyond this bill and into some of the existing provisions. The success of these protections will success of these protections will ultimately depend not only on the rights Parliament creates, but on whether communities can whether communities can realistically exercise them. That brings me to a case in my constituency. An honourable, hon. constituency. An honourable, hon. Members may be relieved to hear it's the only pub I will mention in this speech. In the village of Ireby, local residents have spent years attempting to secure the future of Emily's Black Lion, the last remaining pub serving a rural area around 15,000 hectares. With a population of only a few hundred. The importance of the Black Lion cannot be overstated. Public transport has been withdrawn from the village. There are few remaining public amenities. The pub supports community events, fundraising for local institutions and the neighbouring community owned Globe Hall. For many residents, it's the principal
**** Possible New Speaker ****
social and community hub. Some hon. Friend, Give. Way please. Is giving an excellent speech.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Is giving an excellent speech. I'm reflecting on my experience in Halesowen, which is a. It's a built up area rather than a residential up area rather than a residential area. But we have real reductions in community spaces through years of. Unfortunately, conservative of. Unfortunately, conservative cuts to local government. And that means pubs as well as libraries and other community spaces have become increasingly important. Does he agree with me that that makes the continuation of pubs even more
**** Possible New Speaker ****
vital than it would have been in the past. I welcome the intervention and I would agree. I think we can would agree. I think we can sometimes underestimate the similarities between rural areas and inner cities, where community and inner cities, where community spaces are limited. I followed the campaign of the of Emily's Black Lion for a number of years, including during my time as a parliamentary candidate when I had parliamentary candidate when I had the opportunity to visit the Black Lion and meet members of the community group. What struck me then, and continues to impress me today, is that this was never simply a campaign to save a pub. It was a campaign to sustain a community. Local residents spoke of ambitions to develop the pub further as a cafe, a drop in facility and community hub serving local residents throughout the day. That ambition has only become more important as other services have been lost. During the course of this campaign. I have also lost its bus service in a city. Losing a pub may mean walking to the next one, although I welcome what my colleague just said. In a village such as Ireby, losing the last pub can mean losing one of the last places where people regularly come together. When the future of the pub was threatened, local people did exactly what governments of all colours have encouraged communities to do. They organised. They established a community benefit society. They commissioned surveys and valuations. They prepared a business plan. They achieved the community share standard. They launched a community share offer and raised more than £100,000 from around 200 investors, with further pledges available and on a modest on a modest estimate, the core volunteers contributed more than 1300 hours of unpaid work to the project, including more than 800 hours from one individual alone. Think about that for a moment. More than 1300 volunteer hours from local people who simply wanted to keep their pub alive. Most importantly, they did all of this in good faith. They pursued the route laid before them through the Community Ownership Fund. They incurred costs, undertook surveys, assembled evidence and met every requirement asked of them. Then, just as they were preparing to submit what they believed was a completed application, the general election was called. The process was interrupted and subsequently the funding scheme was closed. The government has since confirmed the Community Ownership Fund is closed and there will be no further application rounds. This was devastating for the campaign in Ayabe. Now where are we? I'm not here to referee a dispute between the owner and the community group, nor am I here to put a value on the pub. Those are matters for negotiation between the parties involved. However, the position in Ayabe illustrates a wider policy question. The community group believes a purchase remains achievable with sufficient support. The owner has expressed concerns about the effect of restrictions and uncertainty on the future marketability of the property. The argument advanced by the owner in Ayabe is that restrictions intended to support community ownership may, in some circumstances, discourage other purchasers from coming forward. Purchasers who may wish to run a pub and secure the future of the asset. Members may or may not agree with that assessment. My point is that the argument exists. Some may argue that is irrational, but potential buyers often aren't rational. It is an argument that becomes more significant when communities do not have access to the funding required to complete an acquisition. The most effective response is not necessarily fewer protections. It may be better funding, better access to finance, and a clearer pathway from community interest to community ownership. This challenge goes beyond this bill. Parliament has recently strengthened community acquisition rights through the new Community Right to buy provisions contained within the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. Those reforms extend the moratorium period and create stronger opportunities for communities to acquire valued local assets. I welcome the ambition behind those reforms. They are motivated by many of the same
**** Possible New Speaker ****
purchase. The success of these. Please gentlemen, for the species making it so. It's a species making it so. It's a reasonable question and the answer is that in the bill it's exactly the same procedure and timelines as the government introduced for community value in the English community value in the English Devolution Act. So community groups will have eight weeks to register an expression of interest and then an expression of interest and then up to 18 months to get that bid together to complete the negotiations. And as I said, if they're not able to agree the price because of an unreasonable demand from the seller, then just as with assets of community value, the independent valuer can set the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
price. For the intervention. And my my criticisms of the bill may go beyond this bill and into some of the existing provisions. The success of these protections will success of these protections will ultimately depend not only on the rights Parliament creates, but on whether communities can whether communities can realistically exercise them. That brings me to a case in my constituency. An honourable, hon. constituency. An honourable, hon. Members may be relieved to hear it's the only pub I will mention in this speech. In the village of Ireby, local residents have spent years attempting to secure the future of Emily's Black Lion, the last remaining pub serving a rural area around 15,000 hectares. With a population of only a few hundred. The importance of the Black Lion cannot be overstated. Public transport has been withdrawn from the village. There are few remaining public amenities. The pub supports community events, fundraising for local institutions and the neighbouring community owned Globe Hall. For many residents, it's the principal
**** Possible New Speaker ****
social and community hub. Some hon. Friend, Give. Way please. Is giving an excellent speech.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Is giving an excellent speech. I'm reflecting on my experience in Halesowen, which is a. It's a built up area rather than a residential up area rather than a residential area. But we have real reductions in community spaces through years of. Unfortunately, conservative of. Unfortunately, conservative cuts to local government. And that means pubs as well as libraries and other community spaces have become increasingly important. Does he agree with me that that makes the continuation of pubs even more
**** Possible New Speaker ****
vital than it would have been in the past. I welcome the intervention and I would agree. I think we can would agree. I think we can sometimes underestimate the similarities between rural areas and inner cities, where community and inner cities, where community spaces are limited. I followed the campaign of the of Emily's Black Lion for a number of years, including during my time as a parliamentary candidate when I had parliamentary candidate when I had the opportunity to visit the Black Lion and meet members of the community group. What struck me then, and continues to impress me today, is that this was never simply a campaign to save a pub. It was a campaign to sustain a community. Local residents spoke of ambitions to develop the pub further as a cafe, a drop in facility and community hub serving local residents throughout the day. That ambition has only become more important as other services have been lost. During the course of this campaign. I have also lost its bus service in a city. Losing a pub may mean walking to the next one, although I welcome what my colleague just said. In a village such as Ireby, losing the last pub can mean losing one of the last places where people regularly come together. When the future of the pub was threatened, local people did exactly what governments of all colours have encouraged communities to do. They organised. They established a community benefit society. They commissioned surveys and valuations. They prepared a business plan. They achieved the community share standard. They launched a community share offer and raised more than £100,000 from around 200 investors, with further pledges available and on a modest on a modest estimate, the core volunteers contributed more than 1300 hours of unpaid work to the project, including more than 800 hours from one individual alone. Think about that for a moment. More than 1300 volunteer hours from local people who simply wanted to keep their pub alive. Most importantly, they did all of this in good faith. They pursued the route laid before them through the Community Ownership Fund. They incurred costs, undertook surveys, assembled evidence and met every requirement asked of them. Then, just as they were preparing to submit what they believed was a completed application, the general election was called. The process was interrupted and subsequently the funding scheme was closed. The government has since confirmed the Community Ownership Fund is closed and there will be no further application rounds. This was devastating for the campaign in Ayabe. Now where are we? I'm not here to referee a dispute between the owner and the community group, nor am I here to put a value on the pub. Those are matters for negotiation between the parties involved. However, the position in Ayabe illustrates a wider policy question. The community group believes a purchase remains achievable with sufficient support. The owner has expressed concerns about the effect of restrictions and uncertainty on the future marketability of the property. The argument advanced by the owner in Ayabe is that restrictions intended to support community ownership may, in some circumstances, discourage other purchasers from coming forward. Purchasers who may wish to run a pub and secure the future of the asset. Members may or may not agree with that assessment. My point is that the argument exists. Some may argue that is irrational, but potential buyers often aren't rational. It is an argument that becomes more significant when communities do not have access to the funding required to complete an acquisition. The most effective response is not necessarily fewer protections. It may be better funding, better access to finance, and a clearer pathway from community interest to community ownership. This challenge goes beyond this bill. Parliament has recently strengthened community acquisition rights through the new Community Right to buy provisions contained within the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. Those reforms extend the moratorium period and create stronger opportunities for communities to acquire valued local assets. I welcome the ambition behind those reforms. They are motivated by many of the same