Lords Chamber
14:36
14:36
14:37
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
outlined in the Strategic Defence Review, which recognises the importance of whole of society approach in strengthening our approach in strengthening our resilience and readiness against the threats we face. Defence is playing a key role within the Cabinet Office led Home Defence Programme, which is coordinating civil and military preparations against the most serious risks. Our against the most serious risks. Our approach includes strengthening our civilian and military links to deliver legislation, enhance
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deliver legislation, enhance critical national infrastructure protection and develop our reserve and cadet forces. Does the Minister agree that it
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deliver legislation, enhance critical national infrastructure protection and develop our reserve and cadet forces. Does the Minister agree that it
14:37
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
is a very radical proposal? The SDR envisages the mobilisation of envisages the mobilisation of substantial numbers of volunteers at local level under local leadership in civilian rescue teams, leadership in civilian rescue teams, reserve farm and special constables and a new home Defence force. It also calls for a national conversation on security. Does the government intend to begin a national conversation, and how is it going to start to mobilise the sort of people that are needed?
14:38
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Well, can I just say that the noble Lord is absolutely right in this really important question, with the point he makes at the beginning. It's a very important matter and a very radical proposal, and it's to do with the new threats and the new that we face as a country. We cannot any longer simply have less carry on as we always have done. And so the proposals in this Strategic Defence review, as the noble Lord, the Minister has laid out, are radical proposals, are serious proposals, and we intend to deliver them.
And one of the ways we intend to do that is to start with the population of this country and talk to them about the need for us all to wake up to the threat that we face, and that will require many of the actions that the noble Lord has pointed out. And we intend to come course.
And one of the ways we intend to do that is to start with the population of this country and talk to them about the need for us all to wake up to the threat that we face, and that will require many of the actions that the noble Lord has pointed out. And we intend to come course.
14:38
Lord Stirrup (Crossbench)
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Lord Stirrup (Crossbench)
My Lord, my Lord, my Lord, my Lord. >> That there is weak to no openness amongst generation Z, to openness amongst generation Z, to be engaged with defence or security issues going on. Further, on what the Minister has just said about talking to people, does he agree that any whole of society approach to defence must, as a precursor, require the Ministry of Defence and the armed forces more widely to reconnect with societal attitudes in this country, particularly amongst young people.
And if he does agree, could he say in more detail how the government intends to go about it?
And if he does agree, could he say in more detail how the government intends to go about it?
14:39
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Well, well, I agree very much with the noble and gallant Lord, with the noble and gallant Lord, and the point that he's made with respect to all of this. And as he points out, the reconnection between the military and the civilian population is absolutely crucial to that. The one positive thing I would say about it is that, like many noble Lords last just a few weeks ago, I was at the remembrance events and at the remembrance events up and down the country.
There were tens of thousands of young people who were remembering the sacrifice that had been made in the past. And they were scouts and guides, cadets, reserve forces, all of those. And that isn't a solution to the problem, but it points the way forward, I think. And I think it's one of the things that we should celebrate, as well as look at the challenges that still face and the noble and gallant will will also know that we look to to extend and expand the reserve and cadet forces, expand the reserve and cadet forces, and that will take some doing.
But do.
There were tens of thousands of young people who were remembering the sacrifice that had been made in the past. And they were scouts and guides, cadets, reserve forces, all of those. And that isn't a solution to the problem, but it points the way forward, I think. And I think it's one of the things that we should celebrate, as well as look at the challenges that still face and the noble and gallant will will also know that we look to to extend and expand the reserve and cadet forces, expand the reserve and cadet forces, and that will take some doing.
But do.
14:40
Lord Harper (Conservative)
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Lord Harper (Conservative)
Conservative.
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Strategic Defence Review is going to be the defence investment going to be the defence investment plan. Can the noble Lord, the Minister, update the House about whether that's going to be published as it was intended to be published as it was intended to be before the Christmas recess, and how the conversations of the national conversation perhaps, is
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national conversation perhaps, is going on between the Ministry of Defence and His Majesty's Treasury. Well, can I just say the
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Strategic Defence Review is going to be the defence investment going to be the defence investment plan. Can the noble Lord, the Minister, update the House about whether that's going to be published as it was intended to be published as it was intended to be before the Christmas recess, and how the conversations of the national conversation perhaps, is
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national conversation perhaps, is going on between the Ministry of Defence and His Majesty's Treasury. Well, can I just say the
14:40
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
>> Well, can I just say the Secretary of State is working hard to finalise the defence investment plan by the end of the year. And in terms of the discussions that we're having with the Treasury, they've been successful up to now and we continue with those discussions. But importantly, the noble Lord, as well as the point he made about the Treasury, refers to the national conversation. It is absolutely crucial that across government, whatever government it is that starts that national conversation, that has that national conversation with the people of our country to recognise the threats that they face, not necessarily from a traditional warfare, but from great fear.
The threats to the underwater cables, cyber attack and all of those sorts of things. And we face a really very real threat from that now. And it's how we take that national conversation forward quickly and urgently.
The threats to the underwater cables, cyber attack and all of those sorts of things. And we face a really very real threat from that now. And it's how we take that national conversation forward quickly and urgently.
14:41
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno (Liberal Democrat)
Clear and interest as a senior councillor with the con group. But can I say to my, my noble friend that the importance of the Strategic Defence review, which needs to get through to the to the wider public, is that Britain is under attack both at home and from abroad, and that the transformation of defence, which is what the Strategic Defence Review is all about, is absolutely essential for the the nation's safety. And in the in the light of the stunningly depressing National Security Review published by the Americans last published by the Americans last Friday, even more needs to be done to to warn our public about the to to warn our public about the risks that we now face and that we might now have to face without the United States of America.
United States of America.
United States of America.
14:42
14:42
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
other than just say, I totally agree with the comments that he made, I think the Strategic Defence Review, and I read it again over Review, and I read it again over the weekend preparing for the question. So I know it's chapter six. So the the importance of that when I reread it was the challenge that it makes not only to the public but to us as politicians, to Parliament to also reflect on how we engage it. Too often if we talk about national conversations, we talk about we'll have a village hall meeting here.
We'll have a village hall meeting there. That is not sufficient. This requires a whole government approach involving all government departments, the devolved governments, local authorities, civil society, financial society, industry, all of those together waking up to the very real threat. Because, as my noble friend says, we are facing a threat now. Not in a year's time or five years time. That threat is now it.
We'll have a village hall meeting there. That is not sufficient. This requires a whole government approach involving all government departments, the devolved governments, local authorities, civil society, financial society, industry, all of those together waking up to the very real threat. Because, as my noble friend says, we are facing a threat now. Not in a year's time or five years time. That threat is now it.
14:43
Baroness Goldie (Conservative)
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Baroness Goldie (Conservative)
My Lord, that's what. immediate, and other countries, recognising that urgency, have taken steps to engage their public by a range of measures, from conscription at one end to seeking volunteers aged 18 and over for military training, as in France and Germany at the other end. So I think what this chamber wants to know is what imminent steps the government taking to educate the British public now about the gravity of the situation and steps to put the UK on to a comparable countries.
14:43
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Yeah. mean, in saying we need to, to do more and to act more urgently. They're already steps that have started to be taken across government. We're already looking at how we extend and develop the reserve and cadet forces, which are important. We're already looking at how we celebrate the involvement of young people. As I just said at remembrance events, we're also having seminars and conferences with industry we finance. I'm going to an event on Thursday night, which is with veterans and the City of London.
So there are all sorts of different events which are taking place, which are seeking to address the very real issues and the important issues that the noble Baroness has raised. I just think that what I'm saying is how we how we do that more quickly and more urgently is a real challenge for the government to do that. But it's certainly one that the government has addressed, one that the government has taken on board. And I would say to the noble Lady, there's a whole government response.
It's not just a government response now, although the government has to lead it, of course, it's how all of us come together in order to deliver that very real challenge that we face.
So there are all sorts of different events which are taking place, which are seeking to address the very real issues and the important issues that the noble Baroness has raised. I just think that what I'm saying is how we how we do that more quickly and more urgently is a real challenge for the government to do that. But it's certainly one that the government has addressed, one that the government has taken on board. And I would say to the noble Lady, there's a whole government response.
It's not just a government response now, although the government has to lead it, of course, it's how all of us come together in order to deliver that very real challenge that we face.
14:45
Lord Houghton of Richmond (Crossbench)
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Lord Houghton of Richmond (Crossbench)
More fundamentally. Minister agree that the real resilience of a nation does not rest on the state of its physical infrastructure, or, for that matter, military numbers, or the number of Boy Scouts or reserves that we've got, but rather it rests on its moral fibre and its societal integrity. But the Minister doesn't really explain or tell the House what are the delivery pathways that will enhance the human dimension of national resilience, that they are sorely needed? Well, it's.
14:45
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
An important challenge. And the important question that the noble and gallant Lord puts, I think the and gallant Lord puts, I think the starting point is to speak up and speak out in a way that sometimes doesn't happen. So I think, for doesn't happen. So I think, for example, that there are very real there's very real resilience among the population in many respects. the population in many respects. But I think what we need to to to explain to people through government, through devolved governments, through local government, is to explain to them the very real threat that is faced now and the very real challenge that they face now.
And it's not just about this is the point where I think that members of the public more generally need to understand it's not the traditional warfare necessarily, that is the threat that people are currently facing. It's the cyber attack that we've already seen with many examples in in our country. It's the threat to underwater cables, the threat to data, and indeed why the carrier strike group was out in the Indo Pacific recently, protecting the trade routes on which this country's economy and prosperity also depends.
And I think that we need to do more with respect to that, because as the noble and gallant Lord says, building the resilience amongst the population, I think something that needs to be done, and I actually have confidence in the British people that if that is explained to them, they will stand up for it.
And it's not just about this is the point where I think that members of the public more generally need to understand it's not the traditional warfare necessarily, that is the threat that people are currently facing. It's the cyber attack that we've already seen with many examples in in our country. It's the threat to underwater cables, the threat to data, and indeed why the carrier strike group was out in the Indo Pacific recently, protecting the trade routes on which this country's economy and prosperity also depends.
And I think that we need to do more with respect to that, because as the noble and gallant Lord says, building the resilience amongst the population, I think something that needs to be done, and I actually have confidence in the British people that if that is explained to them, they will stand up for it.
14:46
Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)
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Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)
My Lord, my Lord. as chair of the National Preparedness Commission. My noble friend, the Minister is saying all the right things. He's talking about how urgent it is, how it's going to be whole of society, whole of government. But he didn't answer the question that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, put right at the beginning is, when is this national conversation going to start? So perhaps you could give us a clearer indication as to the government's timescale on that and give us an indication, for example, as to when the Defence Readiness Bill, which was proposed in the national security, the security review is going to come forward and whether that will include a wider definition so that it looks at all the hazards we face, including climate change, criminal cyber gangs as well as those from overseas states.
14:47
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Well, I'm sure a defence readiness bill when when it comes forward, will include many of the things that my noble friend has. Point because he says defence in that sense, is more than just military equipment and troops. It is about climate change. It is about many of the other things that he mentioned. The conversation has already started. We've already started with conferences and conversations with different parts of industry. What I'm saying to the chamber and what I'm saying to to my noble Lord and all those who spend so much time working on this, as I know my noble friend does, is that we need to actually accelerate that and to expand that, and to do that more than we are doing at the present time.
A conference here and a conference there, whilst worthwhile and important, is not at the level of the sort of national conversation that needs to take place with respect to our country. And that's the point that I'm that I'm trying to make. And as I say, we're exploring defence readiness legislation. We have an armed forces bill next year, but we are exploring a defence readiness legislation, and we look forward to seeing whether we can deliver that in this Parliament.
A conference here and a conference there, whilst worthwhile and important, is not at the level of the sort of national conversation that needs to take place with respect to our country. And that's the point that I'm that I'm trying to make. And as I say, we're exploring defence readiness legislation. We have an armed forces bill next year, but we are exploring a defence readiness legislation, and we look forward to seeing whether we can deliver that in this Parliament.
14:48
Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
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Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
And oral question Lord Woodley. >> I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper. >> My Lords, at the budget 2025,
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My Lords, at the budget 2025, the government announced that to allow more time for the automotive sector to prepare for and adapt to sector to prepare for and adapt to the proposed changes in treatment to employee car ownership schemes, its implementation will be delayed until the 6th of April 2030, with transitional arrangements until April 2032. The Tax Impact and Information Notice has been updated to reflect the impact of these changes.
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My Lords, at the budget 2025, the government announced that to allow more time for the automotive sector to prepare for and adapt to sector to prepare for and adapt to the proposed changes in treatment to employee car ownership schemes, its implementation will be delayed until the 6th of April 2030, with transitional arrangements until April 2032. The Tax Impact and Information Notice has been updated to reflect the impact of these changes.
14:49
Lord Woodley (Labour)
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Lord Woodley (Labour)
Although I'd like to first of all, welcome the noble Lords Minister to this Dispatch Box, I'm Minister to this Dispatch Box, I'm sure all colleagues will welcome you also. I'd also like to thank him for his positive response. him for his positive response. Having listened indeed to the motor industry's concerns. However, this delay to wiping out a 40 year old industry leasing scheme, whilst welcome, begs the obvious question what assessment was made when these proposals were muted, given the fact that they would reduce production by 100,000 vehicles a year, cost 5000 automotive jobs and hardly put a penny extra into the Treasury's coffers, so would the noble.
Lords Minister agreed to meet with me and industry colleagues to discuss whether these proposals should be scrapped entirely.
Lords Minister agreed to meet with me and industry colleagues to discuss whether these proposals should be scrapped entirely.
14:50
Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
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Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
Yeah. government is firmly committed to its modern industrial strategy and to the commitment to the automotive sector. We've listened very carefully to these concerns, which is why we have delayed the proposed changes until 2030, including the transitional period to 2032. In addition to that, there's been an additional commitment of 2.5 billion for the automotive investment into R&D, increased flexibilities around the Zev mandate funded roll out of more charge points. And we've announced the plans to cut electricity costs for the energy intensive industries.
And furthermore, I would like to add that this measure is not expected to add any significant overall macroeconomic impacts. However, after April 2030, the measure is expected to have some economic impact on businesses. Employers that provide this scheme and afterwards sell on those vehicles to new market entry. This impact is predominantly concentrated on the motor manufacturer and motor dealerships industries, and the government is committed to its overall tax policy of fairness in order to fund and balance the public services.
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My Lords declare an interest as an owner of a hybrid vehicle, the noble Lord, the Minister, will will noble Lord, the Minister, will will know from the recent budget about the plan to tax EVs for road use
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the plan to tax EVs for road use per mile. Could you tell the House how this is actually going to work in practice? Yeah.
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Yeah. Was a broad statement. And also as an owner of an EV as well, I
And furthermore, I would like to add that this measure is not expected to add any significant overall macroeconomic impacts. However, after April 2030, the measure is expected to have some economic impact on businesses. Employers that provide this scheme and afterwards sell on those vehicles to new market entry. This impact is predominantly concentrated on the motor manufacturer and motor dealerships industries, and the government is committed to its overall tax policy of fairness in order to fund and balance the public services.
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My Lords declare an interest as an owner of a hybrid vehicle, the noble Lord, the Minister, will will noble Lord, the Minister, will will know from the recent budget about the plan to tax EVs for road use
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the plan to tax EVs for road use per mile. Could you tell the House how this is actually going to work in practice? Yeah.
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Yeah. Was a broad statement. And also as an owner of an EV as well, I
14:51
14:51
Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
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Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
including the upkeep of our roads, fuel excise duties, 24 billion to the national tax take. And it's the national tax take. And it's important, as we transition to our climate change initiatives, that we balance this fairness. And everyone balance this fairness. And everyone who uses the roads pays their equal share. Historically, motoring taxation has been structured around those two elements the taxation of those two elements the taxation of the usage of the vehicle and the taxation on the ownership of the vehicle. This transition means that all vehicles shall contribute all vehicles shall contribute fairly to the wear and tear of the roads, but drivers of petrol and diesel will pay fuel duty, whereas drivers of electric vehicles will not pay the current equivalent.
I'll refer you to the government's policy online for the specifics of how that should be taxed and taken.
I'll refer you to the government's policy online for the specifics of how that should be taxed and taken.
14:52
Lord Watts (Labour)
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Lord Watts (Labour)
Very difficult. >> Time for the British car industry, and I think it's a welcome announcement that this matter has been put off for for matter has been put off for for some time. Will the government continue to monitor the car production problems in the car industry and review whether this policy should be implemented at the appropriate time?
14:52
Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
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Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
I will ask the question. As I stated previously, we're a part of our modern industrial strategy. We are committed to the automotive sector, and indeed, I think our ability to to defer the start date for this particular policy shows that we are in open dialogue, and we will continue to share that dialogue.
14:52
Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)
I recognise that that there has been an element of contrivance in the usage of the present employee car ownership schemes, which the government is closing down, though the delay, of course, is welcome. But right now so many businesses are under stress as well as the automotive sector generally. Will the government be providing some sort of roadmap for those who are not using this in a contrived way, but really had a legitimate practice that to be able to find a new mechanism, that's to enable them to keep their businesses going.
That and for example, would he find the salary sacrifice scheme approach an acceptable one?
That and for example, would he find the salary sacrifice scheme approach an acceptable one?
14:53
14:53
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Conservative)
I appreciate. but would he have a word with his colleagues? Because the car industry in our country is being destroyed by this determination to prevent them manufacturing vehicles with internal combustion engines beyond a particular date? I know the government is keen to be in step with Europe. So will they follow Europe and extend that period? What we are doing is creating a market for cheap Chinese electric vehicles, at the expense of some of the best engines in the world, and there are many, many jobs associated with that.
14:54
Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
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Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
Well, thank you for the recognition of my novice status. I recognition of my novice status. I appreciate that, my Lord. And I'm in constant conversation with my colleagues. What I would say is, as I said, the government is firmly committed to the automotive sector and intends to make sure that we both fulfil our commitments to the sector and our commitments to Climate Commission.
14:54
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness (Liberal Democrat)
So the question is the taxation >> So the question is the taxation on mileage, taxation on electric vehicles, would the Minister know? Lords Minister acknowledge that in Lords Minister acknowledge that in many rural areas where there is precious little, sometimes public transport, there is a greater need for people to have a car and therefore it would be disproportionately harmful, burdensome to those there. And as the government, any thoughts about finding finding a way of rebating the tax in people who are obliged to use their car in rural areas?
14:55
14:55
Lord Sentamu (Crossbench)
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Lord Sentamu (Crossbench)
The also, may I welcome you to the Front Bench of Her Majesty's Government, His Majesty's Government, the noble Lord from the Official Opposition asked a question about taxation of cars, electric ones, I can understand. That's pretty straightforward. He asked a question about a hybrid. It uses both petrol and actually almost electricity. But how will it work? That's the question. Is it going to be a double whammy? Taxation I to drive a hybrid vehicle?
14:56
14:56
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
I also very much welcome the noble Lord, the Minister, to his noble Lord, the Minister, to his first question. He'll be glad to know, returning to the original question, that we agree that benefits in kind should be taxed at the appropriate level to avoid distortions. And we also welcome the pragmatic delay in this new measure to give individuals time to adjust. However, there are claims from the motor industry that there could be a substantial loss to the Exchequer when job losses and loss, VAT and lost excise duty are taken into account.
I mean, with his new perspective, has the Minister, is he confident that the Treasury has
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got their sums right on this? Are. Three months into a new role, as
I mean, with his new perspective, has the Minister, is he confident that the Treasury has
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got their sums right on this? Are. Three months into a new role, as
14:56
Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
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Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
>> Three months into a new role, as confident as it can be on absolutely anything at the moment. But, you know, the current projections that we have are that
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projections that we have are that it shouldn't have a negative impact. Lord Wood I also welcome. The Minister to his role. Being
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projections that we have are that it shouldn't have a negative impact. Lord Wood I also welcome. The Minister to his role. Being
14:57
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>> The Minister to his role. Being investment Minister is a very important part of the government. I seem to remember one of the triumphs we succeeded in was triumphs we succeeded in was creating the new Gigafactory for Tata in Somerset, clearly a landmark event. What is the government doing in order to build on that success?
14:57
Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
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Lord Stockwood, Minister of State (HM Treasury) (Labour)
So thank you to my predecessor, who did a very excellent role in the position of office for investment. He'll understand that we are looking at many, many different projects that both commit to enhancing the investment attractiveness of the UK and also our commitment to our climate goals as well, of which the Gigafactories are a large and proportionate player with those particularly well.
14:57
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Labour)
My Lords, just. >> On on the issue of climate goals, would you perhaps remind the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, of the CBI report in February 2025, which report in February 2025, which showed that the net zero economy since 2023 had actually grown by 10.1%, which compares very favourably with the general level of growth. My Lord, shouldn't we actually celebrate the net zero economy and potentially it's bringing to this country?
14:58
14:58
14:59
Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
investing £820 million over the Spending Review to help young people earn or learn through the Youth Guarantee. This includes a jobs guarantee, where every eligible 18 to 21 year old who has been on Universal Credit and looking for work for 18 months, will be guaranteed six months paid work. In addition, we've announced £725 million for the Growth and Skills Levy to support apprenticeships for young people, alongside reforms to simplify the apprenticeship system and make it more efficient.
14:59
Lord Hain (Labour)
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Lord Hain (Labour)
My Lords, can I welcome what my liberal friend the minister's just explained? But would she agree that nearly a million people, rising remorselessly under the last government is not in work, education or training is terrible for them and terrible for taxpayers? But the longer people are out of work, the more costly it is to prepare them for work. The media and right wing clamour for short term cuts in welfare is for the birds. Frankly. Labour's hugely successful 1997 New Deal for Young People programme helped more than its targeted 250,000 young people to move off welfare into employment, costing £668 million or up to £8,000 per person.
However, national income grew by at least 200 million annually, so short term costs for long term savings. Surely that should be our policy today.
However, national income grew by at least 200 million annually, so short term costs for long term savings. Surely that should be our policy today.
15:00
Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yes. Can I thank my noble friend for that question and of course, for his history of tackling this for his history of tackling this issue in past Labour governments as well. I fully agree with him that having nearly a million young having nearly a million young people not in work, education or training is not only bad for those young people, it's also very bad young people, it's also very bad for the economy. And that's why today we've announced further detail on the policy measures underpinning the Youth Guarantee, which this government has committed £820 million to over the next three years for young people on UC, we are introducing a new Youth Guarantee Gateway session and follow up support, which will be offered to nearly 900,016 to 24 year olds in Jobcentres over the next three years.
We're expanding youth hubs to over 360 locations, creating around 300,000 opportunities for young people to gain workplace experience and training. And we're fully funding apprenticeship training
We're expanding youth hubs to over 360 locations, creating around 300,000 opportunities for young people to gain workplace experience and training. And we're fully funding apprenticeship training
15:01
Lord Baker of Dorking (Conservative)
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Lord Baker of Dorking (Conservative)
all eligible 16 to 24 year olds by removing Non-levy paying employers to co-fund these learners. That's to co-fund these learners. That's alongside the job placement for 18 to 21 year olds that I've already to 21 year olds that I've already talked about. That's the way that we will turn around the scandal of we will turn around the scandal of nearly a million young people neither earning nor learning, with all the damage that creates for
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them and the economy. Conservative. Conservative.
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Thank you. For visiting two university technical colleges where she saw technical colleges where she saw colleges which had a neat unemployment rate of under 2% unemployment rate of under 2% compared to a mainstream school of 13.6%. That is disgraceful and unacceptable. But as no new colleges or schools are going to be built in the next five years, the built in the next five years, the only way that schools in communities that have an industrial heritage will be able to study practical technical education is have a sleeve of utcs from 14 to 18, and we produce.
If I say to the Minister knows this, we produce 25% of apprentices and 50% Stem graduates. And that is our contribution to ensure that by the time of the next election, youth unemployment will not exceed what it is today.
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them and the economy. Conservative. Conservative.
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Thank you. For visiting two university technical colleges where she saw technical colleges where she saw colleges which had a neat unemployment rate of under 2% unemployment rate of under 2% compared to a mainstream school of 13.6%. That is disgraceful and unacceptable. But as no new colleges or schools are going to be built in the next five years, the built in the next five years, the only way that schools in communities that have an industrial heritage will be able to study practical technical education is have a sleeve of utcs from 14 to 18, and we produce.
If I say to the Minister knows this, we produce 25% of apprentices and 50% Stem graduates. And that is our contribution to ensure that by the time of the next election, youth unemployment will not exceed what it is today.
15:03
Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yes, I always enjoy my my visits to Utcs and of course my conversations with the noble Lord as well. And Utcs are doing a very good job in providing that technical education that then leads on to apprenticeships. So, so are other schools as well. And that was at the heart of our post 16 white paper that we provide the pathways through the new V levels, through T levels, through apprenticeships for young people to get the skills that they need to make a success of their lives.
15:03
Lord Laming (Crossbench)
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Lord Laming (Crossbench)
Lord Dear. >> Lord Dear. >> So we'll agree that after the 1948 Education Act was introduced, 1948 Education Act was introduced, there was an unspoken contract between the state and parents, which was that the state would provide education for every child. And parents, on the other hand, had an obligation to get their child to school every day unless there was good reason for it not to happen. The difficulty about the young people who are not in education, work or training today is that that behaviour starts very early on a child's career, and I wondered whether the Minister has any thoughts about how we can restore the contract between the state and parents to get their children to school.
15:04
Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yeah. >> Well, I think the noble Lord makes a a really important point. It is absolutely the case that It is absolutely the case that those children who are absent for periods of time, or, by the way, those children who are in alternative provision by, by virtue of, of behaviour or particular needs are more likely to be not in education, employment or training. And that's why also as part of this plan, we will have a particular focus on those children identifying much earlier, who is likely to then not be able to find a college place or a job and intervene at that point to prevent them becoming Neet in the first place.
15:04
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)
Lord Jay Lib-dems.
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Bishop. Keep standing.
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Keep standing. Minister's comments, but it's very much a top down approach as how to get young people back into work. And could the noble Minister please give further assurance as to please give further assurance as to how government will encourage tradespeople, the plumbers and electricians, the brickies and electricians, the brickies and others to take people on apprenticeships and trainees? It starts at the bottom. It doesn't start with all these courses which they can do part time, but they've got to be employed by a plumber, by a builder, by an electrician.
And what is the government doing about it?
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Bishop. Keep standing.
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Keep standing. Minister's comments, but it's very much a top down approach as how to get young people back into work. And could the noble Minister please give further assurance as to please give further assurance as to how government will encourage tradespeople, the plumbers and electricians, the brickies and electricians, the brickies and others to take people on apprenticeships and trainees? It starts at the bottom. It doesn't start with all these courses which they can do part time, but they've got to be employed by a plumber, by a builder, by an electrician.
And what is the government doing about it?
15:05
Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Well, I'm sure that the noble Lord therefore will welcome the announcement we've also made today announcement we've also made today of fully funding small and medium sized businesses to take on apprentices. These are the businesses that are more likely to take on young people, more likely to take on disadvantaged young people. They're being supported by this government, and that will help to turn round the 40% decline that we've seen over the last ten years of young people starting apprenticeships.
Does the noble.
Does the noble.
15:06
Baroness Stedman-Scott (Conservative)
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Baroness Stedman-Scott (Conservative)
Baroness, the Minister, accept that the most effective way to reduce the number of young people reduce the number of young people who are Neet is to secure stronger economic growth, giving employers the confidence, incentive and capacity to hire? And furthermore, under Labour's proposed new Youth Guarantee, which is very welcome, how will the government ensure that young people are matched to sectors for which they are genuinely suited, so that employers are not left exasperated by placements that break down almost immediately due to poor alignment?
15:06
Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Well, I'm very glad to hear the >> Well, I'm very glad to hear the noble Lady's recognition of the importance of the Youth Guarantee announcements that we've been making today, where we've also, of course, announced the first six areas where we will work with intermediaries, intermediaries and directly with employers to find those placements and an important element of the job guarantee will be the additional support that we can place around young people who, by virtue of having been unemployed for 18 months, will undoubtedly need that additional support, including identifying where their talents lie so that they can then be used to the max pressure.
15:07
The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham (Bishops)
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The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham (Bishops)
My Lords care are care. in work, education or training. And so I ask, has the noble Baroness, the Minister, taken note of the support that universities such as Nottingham Trent University provide to care leavers in admissions, finance and transition, also securing for them affordable, suitable and stable accommodation for them and estranged young people? And I ask what assessment has His Majesty's Government made of the additional support that care leavers need to stay in education? Can the government ensure that this kind of specific support is available more consistently across universities, and for apprenticeships to.
15:08
Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
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Baroness Smith of Malvern, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)
Yes, I hope I can reassure the right reverend Prelate about that. Firstly, of course, care Firstly, of course, care experienced young people are a key part of the group that for whom universities have responsibility through their access and participation plans and the noble. The right reverend Prelate has already identified some good examples of where universities are doing that. In addition, of course, they receive additional bursaries in order to go to university in the first place. If they undertake an apprenticeship, the employer receives additional money in order to support them in that apprenticeship, and the Department for Work and Pensions with respect to their interactions with the benefit system and employment and education also provides additional and particular support in order to ensure that these young people get the chances later on in life that they haven't necessarily had early on.
15:09
15:09
Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
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Lord West of Spithead (Labour)
national interests and keeping us and our allies safe. And today, the First Sea Lord has announced further measures to protect the further measures to protect the undersea environment to counter the new threats we face in that domain.
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new threats we face in that domain. And my Lords are submarine force is in a parlous state. It's the worst in my 60 years of service. Successive delays in ordering lack of drydock investment, failure to recruit and train the requisite nuclear personnel, training delays of those, we've got lack of spares, lack of maintenance. All these have taken their toll. Does our nation realise that for the last year, this great maritime nation has had one attack submarine operational for most of the time.
Some of the time it hasn't had one at all. I mean, that is pretty horrifying for a maritime nation of our stature. These submarines are war winners. They frighten Putin and are what we used to really give the Soviets a hard time with. And that is where we've got to on that. In terms of continuous deterrent, at the moment, the boats are having to do 200 day patrols with no fallback should something go wrong. We have maintained it. It's amazing effort to do it, but my God, we shouldn't really be in that position.
I think now the mod do understand this and are beginning to pull together things. However, and when I say has got 100 day programme to sort it out, can I ask my noble friend the Minister because the nation needs to know how bad this is? And can we go back to the Treasury and ask for extra money in year, which can start getting an impetus to the 100 day programme by First Sea Lord?
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new threats we face in that domain. And my Lords are submarine force is in a parlous state. It's the worst in my 60 years of service. Successive delays in ordering lack of drydock investment, failure to recruit and train the requisite nuclear personnel, training delays of those, we've got lack of spares, lack of maintenance. All these have taken their toll. Does our nation realise that for the last year, this great maritime nation has had one attack submarine operational for most of the time.
Some of the time it hasn't had one at all. I mean, that is pretty horrifying for a maritime nation of our stature. These submarines are war winners. They frighten Putin and are what we used to really give the Soviets a hard time with. And that is where we've got to on that. In terms of continuous deterrent, at the moment, the boats are having to do 200 day patrols with no fallback should something go wrong. We have maintained it. It's amazing effort to do it, but my God, we shouldn't really be in that position.
I think now the mod do understand this and are beginning to pull together things. However, and when I say has got 100 day programme to sort it out, can I ask my noble friend the Minister because the nation needs to know how bad this is? And can we go back to the Treasury and ask for extra money in year, which can start getting an impetus to the 100 day programme by First Sea Lord?
15:11
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Well, can I can I thank my noble >> Well, can I can I thank my noble friend for his question? And he will know that we've been to the Treasury and have secured more Treasury and have secured more money for the defence program and money for the defence program and defence industry. Can I say, just to say, to pick up on a point that my noble friend made, I think it would be incumbent upon us all to praise our submariners for the work that they do, and for the time that they spend at sea.
We are seeking to address some of the challenges that my noble friend has pointed out. He will know that there are programs now of investment into the infrastructure in both Devonport and Faslane. He will know that the dreadnought programme has a commitment of 31 billion with a 10 billion contingency. He will know that we're seeking to invest in Aukus and we also have the institute programme and alongside that, with respect to the problems that my noble friend pointed out with respect to the engineers and the technicians to keep our submarines at sea, he will know that we have started to ensure that we recruit more of those.
And alongside that, I'm pleased to announce and say to the to the House that in terms of the recruitment of submariners and the retention of submariners, that is improved as well. So I accept the challenges of my noble friend lays out. But with the First Sea Lord and others, we seek to address that quickly and urgently, as he says, as the 100 day plan pointed out.
We are seeking to address some of the challenges that my noble friend has pointed out. He will know that there are programs now of investment into the infrastructure in both Devonport and Faslane. He will know that the dreadnought programme has a commitment of 31 billion with a 10 billion contingency. He will know that we're seeking to invest in Aukus and we also have the institute programme and alongside that, with respect to the problems that my noble friend pointed out with respect to the engineers and the technicians to keep our submarines at sea, he will know that we have started to ensure that we recruit more of those.
And alongside that, I'm pleased to announce and say to the to the House that in terms of the recruitment of submariners and the retention of submariners, that is improved as well. So I accept the challenges of my noble friend lays out. But with the First Sea Lord and others, we seek to address that quickly and urgently, as he says, as the 100 day plan pointed out.
15:13
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Well, it's it is a challenge and part part of it is investment into the infrastructure that can take a long time. So one of the things that the Navy have looked to sort of deal with that is the floating dry dock concept, which others would need to explain better than I can, but it's certainly something that is made, can be made available much more quickly than actually the the investment into that. But there is significant investment going into, as I say, to Devonport and to Faslane.
That was something that I indicated in the answer to my noble friend. But we are also seeking to ensure, through the defence technical colleges that were announced as part of the growth deals, but through other ways to try and ensure that we get engineers and technicians into these areas to work. And that has been part of the problem. I would say it's actually if I might just digress slightly as a as a problem that's bedevilled our country for decades in terms of getting technicians, engineers and the sorts of important skills that we need.
And we've always had a shortage of them. And successive governments have tried hard to tackle that. And indeed, the noble Lords commenting to me is defence technical colleges or whatever they're called, were one of the ways in which we try to deal with that. But certainly we need to do more to raise the esteem of vocational education, to ensure that we get all of the technicians and engineers that we need.
That was something that I indicated in the answer to my noble friend. But we are also seeking to ensure, through the defence technical colleges that were announced as part of the growth deals, but through other ways to try and ensure that we get engineers and technicians into these areas to work. And that has been part of the problem. I would say it's actually if I might just digress slightly as a as a problem that's bedevilled our country for decades in terms of getting technicians, engineers and the sorts of important skills that we need.
And we've always had a shortage of them. And successive governments have tried hard to tackle that. And indeed, the noble Lords commenting to me is defence technical colleges or whatever they're called, were one of the ways in which we try to deal with that. But certainly we need to do more to raise the esteem of vocational education, to ensure that we get all of the technicians and engineers that we need.
15:14
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Substance since the turn of the crossbenchers. Okay, crossbenchers. Okay, >> Minister, advise the House as to the progress of the floating dock construction, which he alluded to just now, which is a program announced two years ago, which has not yet shown any sign of going into production. And secondly, could he indicate whether there is any linkage between that and the Chancellor's recent announcement of money to restore the dry dock in Port Glasgow?
15:15
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
I don't know the answer to the second part of the question, so I'll have to I'll have to write to my to the noble Lord about that. In terms of the first part of the question, the I know that the Ministry of Defence is looking carefully at the concept of the floating dry docks, because it's a much quicker way of ensuring that you have the capability that would otherwise be provided by the more traditional dry dock. But it's certainly an important question that we need to look at urgently.
15:15
Baroness Goldie (Conservative)
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Baroness Goldie (Conservative)
I know. >> Senior representatives from BA Systems in Babcock warned the Defence Select Committee in the other place, very recently, of the other place, very recently, of the risk for the aukus programme of delays in decision making and alignment. What steps has the government taken in the light of here?
15:15
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
One of the things that we've >> One of the things that we've done, particularly with respect to the Aukus program, is to make sure that nobody is under any doubt of that nobody is under any doubt of the importance of the Aukus program and our determination to take it forward. And and I just point out to the noble Baroness, one of the questions has always been about the commitment of the United States to it and the United States recently through the president, I think it was in October, now announced the commitment of the United States to that program.
And the noble Baroness should wait for later in the week, perhaps for other things to be said. But let's be clear about it. One of the ways to ensure that the Aukus program goes forward, which is a phenomenal alliance between Australia, ourselves and the US, is for us to have the confidence in the fact that we can deliver it, and to talk about how it's going to be delivered, as well as some of the challenges it faces.
And the noble Baroness should wait for later in the week, perhaps for other things to be said. But let's be clear about it. One of the ways to ensure that the Aukus program goes forward, which is a phenomenal alliance between Australia, ourselves and the US, is for us to have the confidence in the fact that we can deliver it, and to talk about how it's going to be delivered, as well as some of the challenges it faces.
15:16
15:16
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
In Lord Robertson's now not in his place, but the US is a is a fundamental. I keep saying this the US and the UK are fundamental allies together for the protection of global security. They are absolutely fundamental to that in every part of the world. So in answer to my noble friends important question, what I would say is that I have no doubt that the US, the UK and Australia will stand together with respect to the Aukus program. And I think one of the ways that we achieve that is by saying we look forward to the important steps the US are taking to work with us, and I think it was the Kobe review, wasn't it, that looked into the Aukus program.
And I think they found that in the US and found that to be something that the US could take forward. As I say, I just say to my noble friend in the house, let's wait till later in the week for the US. UK alliance is as strong as it ever has been and will continue to be. So.
And I think they found that in the US and found that to be something that the US could take forward. As I say, I just say to my noble friend in the house, let's wait till later in the week for the US. UK alliance is as strong as it ever has been and will continue to be. So.
15:17
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The Minister referred to the shortage of technicians. My Lord. The Minister referred to the shortage of technicians and acknowledged it, and also said that we needed to raise the status of vocational education. I really don't think that's the problem. We have five people chasing at least chasing every apprenticeship opening in this country, and we have excess demand for engineering courses and universities because they're not funded at a level, which means that we can expand the number of places.
Could he let me know whether the ministry is talking directly to the relevant other departments about how to increase capacity for technician training?
Could he let me know whether the ministry is talking directly to the relevant other departments about how to increase capacity for technician training?
15:18
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
Be interesting to have a >> Be interesting to have a conversation outside the chamber with the noble Baroness about about the challenge she made to me. But certainly we are talking to other departments about what more we can do to encourage technical education. The only point I was making, I'd just make again. And that's why it'd be interesting to talk to the noble Baroness and discuss it. I my own belief is that when I go to MoD establishment after mod establishment, you have vacancies at that and they cannot recruit people into those bases to do some of the work that they need to do.
So whatever the problem, there is a particular problem. But I'd be very keen to talk to noble Baroness about what we might do about it.
So whatever the problem, there is a particular problem. But I'd be very keen to talk to noble Baroness about what we might do about it.
15:18
Lord Howell of Guildford (Conservative)
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Lord Howell of Guildford (Conservative)
Number two. >> Number two. >> Most immediate and serious threats to our national prosperity and security, the safety of our and security, the safety of our entire subsea cable system, which on which the nation depends daily and hourly, can you? I don't think the Minister has mentioned subsea cables or how to cope with them, or the role of submarines in dealing with this. Can you assure us that even if we haven't got submarines now, we are building and planning to build the submarines and new technologies to deal with this rather promptly, because the threat is coming soon?
15:19
Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
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Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)
It's a really important question and I apologise if I've not mentioned undersea cables because they are an important. There is an important need for us and a requirement for us as our country to protect undersea cables and to protect the critical national infrastructure that flows under the sea. The noble Lord, if he hasn't had a chance yet, would would I? Would I could I suggest that he reads the first sea Lord speech this morning at the Sea Power Conference, where he talked about Atlantic Bastion, which seeks to deal with many of the points that the noble Lord, quite rightly, has just raised.
These are new technology vessels, for want of a better way, that are undersea, that can operate through the use of artificial intelligence. And as a result of that, artificial intelligence, then military personnel can make decisions about what they should do. They can stay under water for a considerable period of time. And they liaise not only with ships, but they liaise with aircraft and indeed with submarines. That's the sort of thing that I was talking about in the earlier question about the new warfare that we face, the new threats that we face, and the new equipment that we will need to deal with those threats.
So uncrewed, uncrewed vessels alongside our submarines, alongside our ships, alongside our aircraft, as outlined in Atlantic Bastion earlier today, is certainly the way forward. And I hope that that reassures the noble Lord with respect to that threat that we face.
These are new technology vessels, for want of a better way, that are undersea, that can operate through the use of artificial intelligence. And as a result of that, artificial intelligence, then military personnel can make decisions about what they should do. They can stay under water for a considerable period of time. And they liaise not only with ships, but they liaise with aircraft and indeed with submarines. That's the sort of thing that I was talking about in the earlier question about the new warfare that we face, the new threats that we face, and the new equipment that we will need to deal with those threats.
So uncrewed, uncrewed vessels alongside our submarines, alongside our ships, alongside our aircraft, as outlined in Atlantic Bastion earlier today, is certainly the way forward. And I hope that that reassures the noble Lord with respect to that threat that we face.
15:20
15:22
Urgent Question Repeat: Resignation of the Chair of the OBR
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Urgent Question Repeat: Resignation of the Chair of the OBR
activity in 2026. The Senior Deputy Speaker. >> My Lords.
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My Lords. I beg to move that the fifth report of the Liaison Committee, new committee activity in 2026 be new committee activity in 2026 be agreed to. At the start of this year. The House appointed for special inquiry Committees on the special inquiry Committees on the Autism Act 2009, UK. Engagement Autism Act 2009, UK. Engagement with space, Social Mobility Policy and Home based Working. All of those committees have now published their reports, and I look forward to the reports receiving comprehensive government responses shortly.
I would like to express my sincere gratitude to all members who contributed to those inquiries, and indeed, for all our committee
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords. I beg to move that the fifth report of the Liaison Committee, new committee activity in 2026 be new committee activity in 2026 be agreed to. At the start of this year. The House appointed for special inquiry Committees on the special inquiry Committees on the Autism Act 2009, UK. Engagement Autism Act 2009, UK. Engagement with space, Social Mobility Policy and Home based Working. All of those committees have now published their reports, and I look forward to the reports receiving comprehensive government responses shortly.
I would like to express my sincere gratitude to all members who contributed to those inquiries, and indeed, for all our committee