Westminster Hall
(1 year, 4 months ago)
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Bee-killing Pesticides
(1 year, 4 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the use of bee-killing pesticides in agriculture.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes. It is good to see so many parliamentary petitions attached to this debate, showing the true breadth of concern about the health of these essential pollinators. I am grateful to all the petitioners, who share my passion for bees. I hope that the debate does their concerns justice.
Before we start, I declare an interest: my family keep bees on their farm in Cornwall, and I am a patron of Pollenize, a fantastic community interest company in Plymouth that champions pollinator conservation. I also thank Buglife, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the Wildlife Trusts, Green Alliance and the all-party parliamentary groups on bees and pollinators and on the environment for their help in my preparation for the debate.
Although my remarks today will focus on bees, we should remember that moths, butterflies, wasps and beetles are also pollinators, but as I said, I will confine my remarks to bees. I bloody love bees. They might be small creatures, but a lot rests on them. Today, up to three quarters of crops globally are pollinated by bees. The decline in bee populations has led to concerns about food security as well as the impact on biodiversity and ecosystems, but just last Monday the Government issued yet another so-called emergency authorisation for the use of Cruiser SB, which contains a bee-killing neonicotinoid pesticide, thiamethoxam, for the treatment of sugar beet seed for the remainder of this year. This is the third time that the Government have granted emergency permissions for that bee-killing pesticide to be used.
Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind)
I congratulate the hon. Member on securing this debate. The European Court of Justice, Europe’s highest court, ruled that the use of bee-killing pesticides was not acceptable, even under emergency exemptions to protect sugar beet crops, which he mentioned. France has this year decided not to grant the exemption, but the UK Government have. Does he share my concern that the Government may be allowing our environmental standards to slip?
Luke Pollard
I thank the hon. Member for that intervention on a point that I will come to. We are in the middle of a climate and nature emergency; we need all our policies, not just some of them, to reflect that, and authorising the use of bee-killing pesticides is not consistent with the declaration that this House has agreed to.
In this debate, I want to do three things. First, I will argue that the decision to authorise bee-killing pesticides for 2023 was wrong and should be reversed. Bee-killing pesticides are environmental vandalism. Secondly, I want to back our British farmers, so I challenge the Government and industry to do more to help sugar beet farmers, some of whom face financial losses and real difficulties because of an aphid-spread disease, the beet yellows virus. Thirdly, I propose again that future authorisations of bee-killing pesticides be subject to a parliamentary vote, rather than being quietly snuck out by Ministers.
I do not believe that there has been an emergency three years in a row; this is a plan to allow bee-killing pesticides to be used, with authorisations given annually. I sense some déjà vu here, because this time last year, the Government authorised the use of bee-killing pesticides for 2022. I held a parliamentary debate on bee-killing pesticides in this very room a year ago and was told by the Minister at the time that the authorisation was “temporary” and “exceptional”, but here we are again. It is a new year, but the same bee-killing pesticides have been greenlighted by the Conservatives.
It is four years since this became the first Parliament in the world to declare a climate and nature emergency. I want all of us, regardless of party, to focus on nature recovery, rather than on having to prevent Ministers from issuing death warrants for bees and other pollinators. One third of the UK bee population has disappeared in the last decade, and since 1900 the UK has lost 13 out of 35 native bee species. Habitat loss, land-use changes and other human factors are partly to blame, but so is the widespread use of neonicotinoids in agriculture and across food production. We know that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs authorisation of neonics will accelerate that decline.
Thiamethoxam, or TMX, has been found to reduce colony health by harming worker-bee locomotion and potentially altering the division of labour if bees move outside or remain outdoors. It can cause hyperactivity in bees and affect their ability to fly. It is not just killing bees; it is depriving bees of the ability to function. One teaspoon is powerful enough to kill 1.25 billion honey bees, according to Dave Goulson, a professor of biology at the University of Sussex, who is also an expert book writer on the subject of bees. I encourage colleagues to look him up in the Library. Indeed, the former Minister at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the right hon. and learned Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis), told the Commons in December 2021 that there is a
“growing weight of scientific evidence that neonicotinoids are harmful to bees and other pollinators.”
Furthermore, the former Environment Secretary, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has said, “The evidence points in one direction—we must ban neonicotinoids”. It is rare that I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but I do here, and I imagine most colleagues in the Chamber do as well. When we left the EU, the Government promised to follow the science.
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
We should protect our wildlife wherever we possibly can, but I urge the hon. Gentleman to listen to the Minister on the science behind the derogation, given that East Anglia and my constituency of North Norfolk have a large and growing population farming sugar beet. We need to bring glyphosate into the argument. That is another product that we must look to ban, particularly because we know it has harmful effects for humans—it is carcinogenic—and is poor for our biodiversity. The EU is banning glyphosate later this year. What does the hon. Gentleman think about bringing the ban forward from 2025? I certainly want to hear the Minister’s response to that question. We must move to a far more natural solution than glyphosate, which is extremely harmful.
Luke Pollard
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I will come to the science and the process for approval based on scientific decisions in a moment, so I hope he will hold his horses on that point. He makes a strong point on glyphosate. Last year, I held a roundtable with environmental charities, farming representatives and scientists, including representatives of Cancer Research UK, to consider the impact not only of neonicotinoids, but of glyphosate. There are real concerns here, and if we are to make progress in achieving a more nature-based form of agriculture relying on fewer chemicals and pesticides, we need to consider the impact of these chemicals not only on nature, but on human health.
The issue is not only food production in the UK. Now that we have signed trade deals with countries that use neonicotinoids, glyphosate and other chemicals on a greater, more industrial scale in their food production, and we allow that food to be imported to the UK, we are seeing those chemicals in the UK food chain, and we might see even more of them in future, even though we might be taking positive steps to address them. That is an important issue, and I am glad the hon. Gentleman raised it. I look forward to the Minister’s response on that point.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, as he does every year on this topic. I hope he does not have to do so next year. We are focused on agricultural use today, but there is an issue with the use of glyphosate in cities. Does he agree that we ought to create pollinator corridors in our cities and prevent the use of pesticides, so we do not damage the health of our pollinators, and that councils need to be supported to go down that route?
Luke Pollard
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, and I agree. Bee corridors and pollinator corridors offer an incredible opportunity to green many of our urban environments, and provide habitats not only for bees, but for other insects. Insect health might not be the sexiest of topics, but it is essential if we are to reverse climate decline and biodiversity loss.
There are superb examples across the south-west—in Bristol and in Plymouth—of bee corridors. I encourage everyone to support their local council in establishing bee corridors, especially at the point in the year when bee corridors do not look their best and plants start to brown; that is precisely when the biodiversity boost is greatest. How can we explain that to residents?
Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He has referred to the benefits of pollinator corridors, but in Torbay we have the wild flower garden, which used to be very formal planting right on the seafront. The wild flower garden was extremely popular with tourists and visitors.
Luke Pollard
It is a great loss to Government that the hon. Gentleman is no longer a Minister, but a great benefit to these debates that we have double the west country Members from Devon speaking on such matters. Wild flower meadows, however we brand them, are a really important part of restoring ecosystems. They demonstrate that the interventions needed to support biodiversity recovery are not always large or expensive. They can be in every single community where there is a patch of ground that can be planted with wild flowers, and are a good way of signalling intent, especially as regards the recovery of pollinators.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I congratulate the hon. Member on securing this debate. Brighton also has lots of lovely bee-friendly verges and so forth. Are we not just asking the Government to implement their own approach? Yesterday in their environmental improvement plan, they said that they wanted to put nature friendliness at the heart of all their policies. How is that coherent with the decision taken a few days ago? If the Government want to be consistent, they need to look again at the decision on bee-killing pesticides.
Luke Pollard
That is exactly right. If we are to have a proper nature-based recovery, and if the Government are to achieve their ambitions as set out in not only the Environment Act 2021 but the associated piece of legislation that this House has passed, we need them to follow their own procedures, and I do not think that they have in relation to the authorisation. I will explain why.
When we left the European Union, the Government promised to follow the science on bee-killing pesticides. How is that going? On 6 September 2021, the right hon. and learned Member for Banbury, then a DEFRA Minister, told the Commons:
“Decisions on pesticide authorisation are based on expert assessment by the Health and Safety Executive.”
Another DEFRA Minister, Lord Goldsmith, gave the same commitment, word for word, in the Lords that month. That surely means that bee-killing pesticides will be used only when the science shows that it is safe to do so. Right? Wrong.
The Government’s own expert committee on pesticides concluded on 30 January this year, in a report that can be found on the Government’s website, that the requirements for an emergency authorisation of bee-killing pesticides had not been met. It stated:
“On the basis of the evidence presented, the Committee agreed it supports the Health and Safety Executive’s Chemical Regulation Division’s assessment that it is unable to support an emergency authorisation, as potential adverse effects to honeybees and other pollinators outweigh the likely benefits.”
How can the decision have been made through expert assessment—on the science—as Ministers claim, if those very same experts say no to bee-killing pesticides? The decision to authorise bee-killing pesticide use is not supported by the science, the politics or the public, so why are Ministers allowing bee-killing pesticides to be used again this year?
If Ministers are serious about neonic use being temporary and exceptional, I want the Government to provide more support for sugar beet farmers, so that they can invest in other reasonable control measures, such as the greater use of integrated pest management. I back our British farmers, and I know my colleague on the Front Bench, my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner), will say something similar. They have had enormous upheaval over the past few years. The withdrawal from the European Union, the change in subsidy regimes, and the fact that it is now harder to export have hit our farmers hard, so we need to find support for them. While critiquing the Government’s authorisation of bee-killing pesticides, I want to lend my support to those beet farmers, who, I recognise, face financial hardship if there is an aphid-spread infection in their crops.
How is best practice on crop hygiene, establishment and monitoring being shared with beet farmers? What investment are the Government making in the development of pest-resistant varieties of sugar beet and other crops? Why did Ministers previously say that the use of bee-killing pesticides would be temporary as new crop varieties would be coming up? What steps is the Minister taking to encourage industry to pay its fair share of the cost of transitioning away from neonic use? Sugar is big business and it is a high-value crop. We have heard before of funds designed to help farmers affected by aphid crop loss, so why grant authorisation again now if there are resources available for the farmers who are suffering from it?
The public will find it hard to believe that this granulated money-making machine is unable to give the sugar beet farmers that it relies on a fairer deal, so as to help them with crop failures, and so that they can develop a robust system of integrated pest management. It is welcome, and perhaps slightly curious, that although DEFRA last week gave a green light to the use of bee-killing pesticides, it simultaneously announced a new subsidy for farmers—the sustainable farming incentive—to encourage them not to use bee-killing pesticides. There is an easier way of preventing the use of bee-killing pesticides: instead of paying farmers not to use them, we could ban them, as Ministers promised to do, as we should be doing, and as other nations are doing.
I think we have stumbled on a new political truth: as long as the Conservatives are in power, whatever the science and their approval process says, they will approve the use of bee-killing pesticides. I challenge the Minister to prove me wrong on that. I did so last year in this very Chamber, and here we are again; bee-killing pesticides have again been authorised for use. More bees will die, and I predict we will be here again in 2024 unless Ministers have a change of heart. Each and every year until we get rid of that political truth, more bees will die. This is not temporary or exceptional; it is now a firmly established annual authorisation of bee-killing pesticides. This is my challenge to Ministers: prove me wrong by not authorising them next year.
Ministers need to provide more evidence of the impacts to inform the science. The reports from the Health and Safety Executive and the Government’s own pesticides committee—the UK Expert Committee on Pesticides— highlight a number of science holes in the evidence that they require in order to understand the impact of this authorisation on bees. Will the Minister respond to that?
Will the Minister report how much of the sustainable farming incentive has been used to lower the use of neonicotinoids? Will he ensure that there is not only catchment area science for any use of neonicotinoids, but field-edge studies for every field they are used in? At the moment, the evidence relates to selected fields and catchment areas, which are often too large. Will he ensure that there are catchment and field-edge water studies for every field that neonics are used in? Will he ensure that the cost of science is billed directly to any farmer using Cruiser SB, so that the taxpayer does not lose out?
The UK Expert Committee on Pesticides said that it would be beneficial to have an assessment of the quantity of active substances deployed in the environment as part of the suite of information used to determine whether the benefits of insecticide use outweigh the environmental risks. Will the Minister agree to do that?
Margaret Ferrier
The economic value of pollination to UK crop production is approximately £500 million a year. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the use of these toxic pesticides is short-sighted, particularly as bee numbers rapidly decline?
Luke Pollard
The use of bee-killing pesticides is short-sighted. It is designed to be a quick fix to help farmers who are in a real pickle. I do not doubt the seriousness of the problem, but the longer bee-killing pesticides are authorised annually, the easier it will be to authorise them annually for evermore, and the easier it will be to extend their use to other crops, because the precedent has been set. That is why this House must be firm that bee-killing pesticides should not be used and should be banned.
I would also like the Minister to look at the datasets available for the monitoring of the use of Cruiser SB. The UK Expert Committee on Pesticides highlighted that it can see evidence and data only from selected months, not for the whole year. Will he commit to providing data for the whole year to the experts scrutinising this policy? Will he update the House on the development of alternative resistant varieties of crops before any future authorisations are made?
Will the Minister publish in written form whether the Conservative party has received any donations from sugar companies that want to use Cruiser SB? I do not believe the accusation sometimes levelled at Ministers that there is a link between this decision and donations, but the accusation is made in debate on the subject, and the matter would benefit from the full glare of public scrutiny.
I do not want bee-killing pesticides to be used. I do not think they carry public support or confidence, and I want the Minister to explain why he has overruled the scientific bodies that the Government previously relied on for the rigour and relevance of their evidence on the use of bee-killing pesticides. The gap between green rhetoric and green delivery is now a gaping chasm when it comes to bee health.
My final ask is for a parliamentary vote on the use of bee-killing pesticides. I believe the Government do not have the public support for bee-killing pesticides. The majority of beekeepers and farmers, and all MPs, want greater scrutiny of that decision. My proposal to the Minister is that future authorisations of bee-killing pesticides should be subject to a parliamentary vote, in which MPs should have the genuine opportunity to weigh up the pros and cons of using neonicotinoids. If the Government want to continue the use of neonicotinoids—I believe that Ministers have now set out an automatic annual approval process—we need to make it politically impossible for that to happen without Parliament approving it.
Last year, I warned Ministers that, just as decisions to approve bee-killing pesticides are annual, this debate will also be annual. This is now the annual bee debate; it might not always be called by me but, as long we have Ministers in power who believe that bee-killing pesticides have a place in agriculture, it must be part of the annual political calendar, and it must be a day of shame for Ministers who authorise bee-killing pesticides.
MPs from all parties have received correspondence from constituents, asking them to speak in this debate. Lots of colleagues in all parties wanted to speak but are unable to be here. The message about saving bees is cross-party, and it needs to be one that the Government hear loud and clear.
If we are to tackle the climate and ecological emergency, we need more than words—we need action. We need an annual moment of action: a vote to determine whether bee-killing pesticides can and should be used. If we do not have that, it will make securing a net zero, nature-positive future so much harder. Bee health is non-negotiable; our planet depends on it. We must ban the use of bee- killing pesticides.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes. I congratulate the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) on—once again—securing this important debate, having also secured last year’s Westminster Hall debate on neonicotinoids in response to the Government’s previous so-called emergency authorisation.
I am deeply sorry that we keep needing to have this debate, particularly when the Government’s rhetoric should mean that greenlighting highly toxic pesticides is unthinkable. Yesterday the Government published their environmental improvement plan, which aims to provide
“a comprehensive delivery plan for the Government’s approach to halting and then reversing the decline in nature.”
That goal is very welcome and should align domestic policy with a commitment in the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework, agreed by almost 200 countries in December. However, it is in precisely that context that last week’s decision on neonics is so utterly incoherent and inconsistent.
Sadly, this is not an isolated case of Ministers failing to live up to their own greenwash. Just last month, the Office for Environmental Protection reported that not one of the 23 environmental targets examined was on track to be achieved, and 14 were clearly off-track. We also have the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill risks, under which we risk scrapping a staggering 1,700 environmental regulations overnight—vital laws that cover areas such as pesticides, food, nature, air and water quality, to name just a few.
Now we have the so-called emergency approval in England of this banned pesticide—a type of neonicotinoid —for the third year in a row. It is a poison so powerful that some have said that a single teaspoon is enough to kill 1.25 billion bees. It has been said that neonics affect the central nervous system of insects and bees’ ability to forage and navigate. A recent study showed that just one exposure could affect a bee’s ability to reproduce in future years.
Nature’s decline is no more alarming than when it comes to insects. As we have heard, the UK has lost half its insects in the past 50 years alone. I say “lost” but I do not like that word, because we have not lost them; we have destroyed them—let us face up to what is going on here. More than 40% of the earth’s remaining 5 million insect species are now threatened with extinction. The loss of these vital pollinators is truly terrifying to comprehend. It raises the question of how on earth the Government can say in one breath that they are halting—let alone reversing—biodiversity loss, when they are also pursuing such wanton destruction.
Of course, it is particularly alarming that this approval comes, once again, against the advice of the UK Expert Committee on Pesticides, which maintains that the risk to bees and other pollinators did not warrant the authorisation. As we have heard, the committee said:
“the requirements for emergency authorisation have not been met”.
It could not be much clearer. The approval is also contrary to guidance, which is clear that emergency applications should not be granted more than once—the clue is in the name.
The Minister may attempt to argue that sugar beet does not flower, so there is no risk to bees, but that is plainly false. Neonics were banned for use on flowering crops in 2013, but were also banned for use on non-flowering crops such as sugar beet in 2018, when it became clear that their use was contaminating soils, streams and hedgerow wildflowers and, by extension, affecting bees. Flowering so-called “weeds” also grow in fields that attract bees, not just in the current year but in subsequent years, when neonicotinoids are still present in the soil.
I remind colleagues of the findings of the Environmental Audit Committee report on pollinators and pesticides from 10 years ago. I sat on that Committee and was involved in taking the evidence that went into the report. I particularly recall this recommendation:
“Defra policy on pesticides must be evidence-based. Where the available scientific evidence is either incomplete or contradictory, Defra must apply the precautionary principle.”
Actually, I would argue that the evidence here is not incomplete or contradictory. Even if it were, DEFRA should apply the precautionary principle, but I think we can all agree that that the precautionary principle has been chucked out of the window when it comes to this decision and many others. So I ask the Minister quite simply: what is the point of the environmental principles policy statement, which was published just yesterday, if environmental principles are not applied in practice? I urge him to look again at this decision.
Before we left the EU, Ministers waxed lyrical about a green Brexit. The Minister is no doubt aware—and we have heard this from the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier)—that the European Court of Justice ruled on 19 January that emergency derogations for neonics are illegal, so the rest of Europe will not be using these bee-killing chemicals. Is that what the Government mean by the so-called opportunities that Brexit provides? Will he now reassure me that the existing restrictions on neonics and other harmful pesticides will be maintained as part of the Government’s review of retained EU law? They very clearly must be.
In conclusion, I want to probe the Minister on long-term solutions. As is patently clear, when we are the midst of a nature emergency, so-called emergency approvals of neonics every year are inappropriate and unsustainable, and they have to stop. We need an approach that safeguards both food production and biodiversity for the future. These things are not separate; they are intimately connected and dependent one on the other.
I welcome the inclusion of integrated pest management in the new sustainable farming incentive, with payments for insecticide-free farming. However, I am concerned that it could just end up being a tick-box exercise, where farmers complete an IPM assessment and produce a plan but are under no obligation to take practical action. Will the Minister commit to remedying that issue, too?
We need a much more concerted move towards IPM, where we use chemical pesticides only ever as a last resort, if at all, rather than continuing our current reliance on banned neonics. Will the Minister therefore commit to further support for IPM? Will he explain what alternatives are being trialled to prevent emergency authorisations in the future? And will the Government bring forward more investment in farmer-led research, practical advice and peer-to-peer learning?
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Ms Nokes. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) on securing this really important debate and on his excellent speech.
As we know, last week the Government yet again approved an emergency authorisation for the use of Cruiser SB, which contains a neonicotinoid, on this year’s sugar beet crop. That is despite the Health and Safety Executive saying that the risks posed to bees foraging on the pollen and nectar from flowering crops planted in fields of treated sugar beet posed “a potential concern”. Furthermore, the independent UK Expert Committee on Pesticides has said:
“In light of the risk assessment conducted, a reduction in survival of honey bees and impacts on homing flight ability (which also influences survival of foragers) could occur.”
The Government are ignoring the advice of their own experts, and I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us why.
It was the same last year when the Government granted authorisation for Cruiser SB, and a number of constituents who have written to me with their concerns were keen to point that out. Wirral West residents who have been in contact with me have also highlighted that this latest move is completely at odds with the pesticide reduction targets the UK advocated less than two months ago at COP15, which aim to reduce by half the overall risk posed by pesticides and highly hazardous chemicals by 2030. The Minister has even accepted that there is a degree of uncertainty as to the benefits of using Cruiser SB to address the identified danger to sugar beet production, and that there is a degree of uncertainty in relation to the risk to bees.
It is no surprise, then, that Friends of the Earth has described the decision as “incredibly brazen”. It has rightly pointed out that the
“health of us all and the planet depends on”
the survival of bees and other vital pollinators. Just last month, a scientific study estimated that the sharp decline in the populations of many pollinators is already causing about 500,000 early deaths a year by reducing the supply of healthy foods. That is extremely concerning. As the Pesticide Collaboration points out, even minor traces of toxic neonicotinoids “play havoc” with the ability of bees to forage, navigate and reproduce, which has “catastrophic consequences” for the survival of their colony or populations. Its statement continues:
“A recent study showed that even one exposure of a neonicotinoid insecticide had significant impacts on their ability to produce offspring in future years.”
Just one teaspoon is enough to kill 1.25 billion bees. It is even more concerning, therefore, that even with that knowledge the Government have gone against the advice of their own experts. Will the Minister set out what alternatives were considered before the decision to approve the use of Cruiser SB?
I praise the fantastic work done by all those involved with Flourish at Ford Way community garden project in Upton, in Wirral West. They keep hives that produce delicious honey, and all their gardening is done in a bee-friendly way. I thoroughly enjoyed a recent visit, when I was fortunate enough to witness at first hand how the beekeepers work with the bees and maintain the hives, and I gained an insight into the overall process of how they produce the honey. Flourish has been working with a local Upton women’s group, which has been using Flourish’s polytunnels to grow plants and flowers that are then placed in the village centre in Upton; bees visit those flowers to collect nectar and pollen, which they use as food for themselves and their larvae. When they move from flower to flower, they transfer pollen, which helps plants to grow, breed and produce food, thus keeping the cycle going. That is a great example of two groups coming together in Wirral West in a responsible way to benefit the local community and our environment.
Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) on securing the debate. We all agree that bees are vital for the ecosystem. Bees have been the symbol of our city, Manchester, for 150 years. We have beehives all around the city, including at our cathedral, Manchester Art Gallery, homes and lots of other places, and they play their part in encouraging pollination. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) agree that supporting bees and pollinators in urban areas is also important in providing locally sourced food?
Margaret Greenwood
I thank my hon. Friend for his excellent contribution. He is absolutely right that it is important to encourage urban bees, but he also reminds us of the historic role and ancient history of beekeeping, which I discussed with the beekeepers in my constituency. It is important that we keep that in mind.
Finally, the Government should listen to the advice of their own experts and think again about their decision to authorise the use of neonicotinoids, which are so harmful to bees. I support the ban.
Samantha Dixon (City of Chester) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) on securing this important debate—my first in Westminster Hall.
As Members on both sides of the Chamber have mentioned, it is well known that neonicotinoid pesticides can be very harmful to a wide range of insects and invertebrates, including, of course, our beloved bees. They are essential to the future of our planet, to the pollination of our crops and to our rich tapestry of biodiversity, yet in the UK, as we have heard, 13 bee species are extinct and one in 10 of Europe’s wild bee species are under threat.
The Government’s announcement of an exemption to the ban on neonicotinoids to treat sugar beet in England was ill-judged and wrong. I am concerned that the Government went against the advice of their own expert scientific advisers. Our understanding is that the use of neonicotinoids is mainly associated with sugar beet production in the east of England, but it is important to note that the chemicals can be washed into watercourses and can work their way into the food chain. As with most things in nature, there are always the ripple effects of consequences, chain reactions and things interlinked with one another. There is also a serious concern that the exemption for sugar beets will simply open the floodgate to the wider use of harmful pesticides.
Neonics can have consequences well beyond their site of application and, if used more widely, can put in danger vital efforts to recover threatened native species, including in my own constituency, where Chester Zoo is working hard with partners to create new habitats that encourage bees and other pollinators as part of its nature-recovery corridor in Cheshire. Similarly, the impact would be felt across the north-west region, where the zoo is assisting with the introduction of locally extinct species, such as the large heath butterfly.
I back our farmers, and I am concerned that sugar beet farmers are experiencing a difficult time. However, lifting the ban is not the answer. We must find a science-led way forward that protects our bees and safeguards our future biodiversity, but that also includes better support for the farming sector. In the middle of a climate and nature emergency, there should not be any ifs or buts when it comes to the health of bees. We must be prepared to make tough calls to address the ecological crisis and showcase environmental best practice, rather than allowing more bees and pollinators to be killed by neonics.
I lend my support to the call made by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport for parliamentary approval for any future use of bee-killing pesticides. Will the Minister comment on the impact the exemptions to the ban have had since its introduction and on the expected impact in the next few years? More importantly, will he admit that any lifting of the ban is a huge mistake and that the use of such harmful pesticides should be banned for good, especially in the light of the environmental challenges we face?
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
I am pleased to participate in the debate, and I thank the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) for comprehensively setting out the issue before us—the use of bee-killing pesticides in our agriculture.
The issue matters very much to my constituents, and I know it matters to constituents across the UK, because we all receive large amounts of correspondence about it. The reason for that concern is that bees play a crucial part in our ecosystem; we must do all we can to protect them from the detrimental impacts of environmental alterations and climate change.
The International Union for Conservation of Nature list shows that as many as 24% of Europe’s bumble bee species are now threatened with extinction, despite being worth a staggering £690 million per year to the UK economy. Bees are vital to our agriculture. One out of every three mouthfuls of food we eat exists because of pollination. Bees pollinate an array of crops, including apples, peas, courgettes, pumpkins, tomatoes, strawberries and raspberries. If we lose bees and other pollinators, growing many types of food would be extremely challenging. Our diets would suffer tremendously. The variety of food available would diminish and the cost of certain products would surge. Many argue that pollination provides one of the clearest examples of how our disregard for the health of the environment threatens our very survival.
Since 1900, the UK has lost 13 species of bee, and a further 35 are considered to be under threat of extinction, not least because of toxic pesticides, which we are talking about today, and climate change. No species of bee is protected by law. The contribution of honey bees to nature and food products is significant. As we have heard from a number of Members, up to three quarters of crop species are pollinated by bees and other pollinators, so bees are the ultimate symbol of a healthy environment in terms of our climate, our food security and our natural world. Bees could not be a more important factor in those areas.
When we look at what is happening in Scotland and what is happening in England, this is again a tale of two Governments. The Scottish Government launched its “Pollinator Strategy for Scotland 2017-2027” to make Scotland a more pollinator-friendly and sustainable place by protecting indigenous bee and butterfly populations. The strategy sets out how to make Scotland a place where pollinators can thrive and how those objectives can be achieved. Importantly, it raises public awareness about the value of Scotland’s pollinating insects and the regulation of non-native species.
While that is going on, we have a UK Government who, as we have heard today, have no real sense of urgency about this important matter. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport pointed out that the UK Government have retained the pesticide, along with other neonicotinoids, banned in the EU in 2013, using the EU temporary emergency exemption. Measures in the EU to protect pollinators, including bees, are in place, but the UK opted out of them. I echo the point made by the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), who is no longer in his place, about the impact of glyphosate and the need to address that issue.
For the third year in a row, the Government have authorised the continued use of thiamethoxam—I hope I pronounced that properly. The European Court has ruled against its emergency use, because it is known to be lethal to bees, wasps and other pollinators. It poses a danger not just to wild bee colonies, but to humans, as it is linked to a wide range of health challenges.
It was not so long ago that the former Environment Secretary, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), declared:
“We cannot afford to put our pollinator populations at risk”—
yet here we are. Members have reminded us that one teaspoon of pesticide is enough to kill 1.25 billion bees. The sensible way forward, in the face of the facts that we have heard today, is surely a total ban on bee-killing pesticides.
Many people, including SNP Members, encouraged the UK Government to make the Environment Act 2021 stronger by following Scotland’s example in areas such as air pollution, outlawing harmful pesticides and independent oversight of environmental protection, but sadly, that was to no avail. The reality is that legal requirements set out in the Act to halt species decline by 2030 will be as written on water if the UK Government do not step up and protect England’s natural environment and preserve its biodiversity. This matters very much in Scotland, even though it is a matter for the UK Government, because bees do not recognise borders, so bees across the rest of the UK are potentially harmed by what is going on.
Patricia Gibson
I will just finish this point. It is important that the Government prioritise the environment and protect farmers in international deals, because improving trade is one thing, but our natural environment must not be jeopardised by poisonous chemicals that result in the death of invaluable pollinators. There must be no regression on environmental standards and protections. I urge the Minister to follow the direction and example of both the Scottish Government and the EU in banning pesticides and protecting pollinators. During the Brexit debate, many of us warned of a divergence in standards between the UK and the EU over time, leading to—as everybody feared—the lowering of standards in the UK over a range of areas. We were told that that would not happen, that it was nonsense and that the UK would be liberated to make even greater progress, but today we see our fears about protecting bees coming true.
Margaret Ferrier
As the hon. Member mentioned, we have some good initiatives in Scotland for bee protection, such as the Cambuslang apiary project in my constituency. Does she agree that the project does incredible conservation work for bee pollination and populations?
Patricia Gibson
Absolutely. Local initiatives like that must be applauded and supported, but we need a lead from the UK Government on the level of pesticides and pesticide use, so that we can support the very important work that bees do on our behalf, which many of us probably take for granted.
That brings me beautifully to my next point because, although many of us might take the work that bees do for granted, we have to remember the impact that they have on our crop production. We do not want to find ourselves in future in the same position as some fruit farmers in China, where wild bees have been eradicated by excessive pesticide use and the lack of natural habitats. That has forced farmers to hand-pollinate their trees, carrying pots and paintbrushes to individually pollinate every flower. It is simply not possible to hand-pollinate every crop that we want, but it shows the kind of nightmare scenario that we could end up in, and the impact that that would have on the food that we eat and on our survival.
This issue becomes more pressing with every passing day, as our bee numbers continue to diminish. I hope, when the Minister gets to his feet, that he will agree that it is indeed time for his Government to get busy and start saving bees, and to ban noenicitinoid pesticides before it is too late. As he has heard today, his Government need to follow the signs and remember bees and the Government’s environment improvement plan. Let me end by saying: the Government need to get themselves into a hive of activity and save our bees.
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Nokes. I am grateful, as ever, to my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) for securing yet another debate on this important topic, and for drawing attention to the attached petitions. As ever, his introduction was full and thorough, and I will echo many of his points.
I commend other Members for their contributions. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) hit the nail on the head in highlighting the contradiction between this decision and the Government’s wider aspirations. I very much enjoyed the account from my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) on the work done by Flourish, as well as hearing about the urban bee corridors that my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport mentioned. A lot is being done on that in many places, including in my city of Cambridge, where Cambridge City Council is doing important work on it.
I was very pleased to hear the first Westminster Hall contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Samantha Dixon). I must tell her that this is not an entirely typical Westminster Hall debate, because we did not hear from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—I am sure that he will not mind me saying that—but we normally do. My hon. Friend made important points about run-off, which must be taken seriously.
So here we are again, Minister—last week, he was a great advocate of following scientific advice, but this week, it is all different. As many here have pointed out, the Government’s decision to issue an emergency authorisation to allow for the use of Cruiser SB—which contains thiamethoxam, a type of neonicotinoid—on sugar beet goes against the advice from the Government’s expert committee on pesticides and the Health and Safety Executive.
While the UK Government turn against the science, it is ironic that that comes just days after the European Court of Justice ruled that authorising derogations for the use of banned neonicotinoids was prohibited, stopping further applications for emergency use. That means that we are now an outrider, with lower standards than our neighbours. That is not a place that we should be, and it is not a place that Labour would be, because, for us, pollinator health is not negotiable. I said that last year and the year before, and it was as true then as it is now.
People will look back and ask why on earth this Conservative Government were so slow to act on the damage that is being done. Never mind worthy targets, never mind environmental improvement plans—this decision has been taken here and now. The attack on nature continues for as long as the Conservatives remain in power.
This is a long-standing debate and, as colleagues have pointed out, the Government have ignored the advice of the panel for three years in a row—they have ignored the science and the advice of the expert committee for three years. We have heard the advice, but I will repeat it: the committee advised against authorising a derogation on Cruiser SB because
“potential adverse effects to honeybees and other pollinators outweigh the likely benefits.”
Last week, the Minister said that he believed in science and supported the work of experts, but now that advice is being ignored. I simply ask: why, Minister? I suspect that part of his answer may be the rules that go alongside the use of the Cruiser SB neonicotinoid-treated seeds. A period of time has been specified that must elapse before flowering crops can be planted in the same field. Herbicides must also be used to remove weeds in the field to reduce the exposure of pollinators to insecticides—I am afraid that that provision also adversely impacts pollinators through the reduction of available flowers, but we understand the goal to reduce overall potential risk.
It will probably be said that the threshold that will allow for its use has been increased this year, from 19% to 63%.We all hope that that threshold will not be reached—it was not the year before last. The truth is, however, that we genuinely do not know whether that will happen or not; it will depend on the weather.
But we do know for sure that neonicotinoids are extremely harmful to the environment. They affect the nervous system of bees and other insects, leading to their death. I cannot resist repeating what everyone else has said about the 1.25 billion honeybees that can potentially be killed by one teaspoon of the chemical. We all know how critical bees are for pollinating crops. As the brief provided by the all-party parliamentary group on the environment pointed out, wild bees are responsible for pollinating between 85% and 95% of the UK’s insect-pollinated crops. We also know that run-off into waterways and leaching into the soil and nearby wildflowers is a real threat, as the Bumblebee Conservation Trust highlighted in its brief on the impact not just on bumblebees, but on other animals and aquatic life.
We also understand the wider context, which is very difficult. Virus yellow is a cause of significant yield losses. The National Farmers Union reports that, for some, it is up to 50%. The most complex and serious is that spread by the peach potato aphid, and it is hard to control. In 2020, the sector lost 40% of the national sugar beet crop, bringing down the five-year average yield by 25%.
Frankly, the weather over the past few months has been really difficult. We all remember the searing heat from last summer—the drought—that hit particularly hard in key beet areas along the A14 and around Bury St Edmunds. And then, just before Christmas, there was a very harsh frost followed immediately by a big temperature rise, resulting in a rapid, rotting thaw. It has been really difficult, and that has been added to by a new pest, the beet moth, which seems to be attracted from Europe by the warmer temperatures here.
The overall result is that we are short of beet sugar this year, with beet having to be imported by the processor. That is tough on the growers, tough on the processor and adds more costs up the supply chain. With beet becoming a less attractive prospect to many growers, British Sugar already had to pay more to encourage people back into production. None of that is easy, and there are consequences and costs to any decision. I appreciate that, for farmers, it too often feels as though the tools that they need for the job are being systematically taken away. That is very difficult, because nature does not compromise.
We have to look at alternatives, as British Sugar and the NFU acknowledge in their helpful briefings. There are high hopes for varieties resistant to virus yellows and there is potential for the use of gene editing to secure that resistance. I hope that the Government follow our advice on the regulatory structures needed to make that happen. I am told that there is already a variety resistant to two virus yellow strains, but it is expensive and there is a yield penalty. I am also told that yield protection insurance is available, but again, that incurs more costs. Those are difficult decisions.
There are things that we can do, some of which have been outlined by other Members. We can develop non-chemical approaches, such as boosting beneficial insects, cover crops, better rotation and maintaining good farm hygiene. There is evidence that some farms have had success by adopting such measures. We should move much more quickly on adopting integrated pest-management systems. Ironically, as has been explained, that was part of the sustainable farming incentive package that the Government announced last week, and we welcome that. So I say to the Minister: be bold on that, listen to the scientists and get away from falling back on neonicotinoids, which we know do so much harm.
The Minister for Food, Farming and Fisheries (Mark Spencer)
It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Nokes. I congratulate the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) on securing this debate, and I welcome the hon. Member for City of Chester (Samantha Dixon) to her first Westminster Hall debate. I also thank all Members who have made a contribution today.
The decision to grant the emergency authorisation has not been taken lightly and is based on robust assessment of the environmental and economic risks and benefits. Emerging sugar beet seedlings and young plants are vulnerable to feeding by aphids. Those transmit several viruses, known collectively as virus yellows, which lead to reduced beet size, lower sugar content and higher impurities. Overall sugar beet yield can be reduced by up to 50% by the viruses.
We withdrew authorisation for use of pesticide products containing the three neonicotinoids on outdoor crops in 2018, in line with the EU decision. Since then, sugar beet growers have been adjusting to new conditions. In 2019 and in 2021, the virus threat was low and the crop was not significantly impacted. However, 2020 saw severe damage, with up to 24% of the national crop being lost. Imports were needed to enable British Sugar to honour its contracts.
The emergency authorisation has been issued with a strict threshold for use, so that Cruiser SB will be used only if there is a likely danger to the sugar beet crop. This year, the threshold has been set at a predicted virus incidence of 63% or above, as forecast by an independent model developed by Rothamsted Research. That increase reflects our improving understanding of the fit between the model used to predict virus incidence and real-world outcomes, and it means that the product is less likely to be used. The aim of the threshold is to ensure that Cruiser SB is used only if there is a likely danger to the sugar beet crop.
The forecast will be made on 1 March this year. It is only then that we will know for certain whether the seed treatment will be used this year. In 2021, the model predicted that the virus level would not meet the threshold, so the seed treatment was not used.
Samantha Dixon
On 1 March, will the decision be the Minister’s or will it rest with others, and if so, who?
Mark Spencer
The decision will not be made by Ministers; the decision will be set by a threshold. Rothamsted Research has set that threshold and that model, and it will take into account weather patterns and levels of aphids and virus within the environment. The decision will be made based on that model, so I will not be involved in that decision, nor will any other Minister.
Members will be aware of the strict conditions of use that have been set as requirements for emergency authorisation. If that threshold is met and if neonicotinoid- treated seeds are planted, conditions will be put in place to mitigate risk to the environment, including to pollinators. The conditions include the prohibition of any crop that flowers before harvest being planted in the same field within 32 months of a treated sugar beet crop and compliance with a stewardship scheme, which requires monitoring to be performed to determine the levels of neonicotinoids in the environment. Full details of the key conditions of use have been published on gov.uk.
Daniel Zeichner
Will the Minister tell us whether there has been any assessment of the success of the mitigation measures adopted in previous years?
Mark Spencer
We take into account all of that data when making these decisions. We take the best advice from the best scientists and make these decisions on their advice. My decision was informed by the advice of the Health and Safety Executive and by the views of the UK expert committee on pesticides and DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser on the scientific evidence. I also considered economic issues, informed by analysis from DEFRA economists.
Looking to the future, we do not wish to see the temporary use of neonicotinoids continue indefinitely. The development of alternative and sustainable approaches to protect sugar beet crops from these viruses is paramount. That includes the development of resistant plant varieties, measures to improve crop hygiene and husbandry, and alternative pesticides. British Sugar and the British Beet Research Organisation are undertaking a programme of work to develop these alternatives, which include yellows virus-specific integrated pest management techniques. The Government are closely monitoring the progress of that.
Caroline Lucas
The Minister will know that, since 1970, the UK has lost 50% or more of our insects. Whatever he is saying to us this morning, I do not think he is saying that risk is completely absent; he is balancing risks. Where does the precautionary principle come into his analysis and assessment, given that the risks that we face are so huge? Even if he thinks that the risk is small, none the less, if it happens and there is yet more of a collapse of our bee populations, we are in deep trouble.
Mark Spencer
That is one of the reasons why we have introduced the new environmental land management schemes, whose purpose is to change the way farmers grow crops and make them adopt those practices. We recognise how important bees are, and we want to work with farmers to improve the conditions for pollinators. We want to work with nature, rather than against it.
As hon. Members know, we continue our work on the agricultural transition, and we are repurposing the land-based subsidies we inherited from the EU. The hon. Lady makes the point that they did little for the environment and little for farmers. We will now have a new, ambitious system that rewards farmers and land managers for their role as environmental stewards, and that starts with the sustainable farming incentive.
Caroline Lucas
Will the Minister specifically address the precautionary principle? How did he apply it to the decision he made?
Mark Spencer
We have to balance all those factors and all the scientific advice, including the precautionary principle, in coming to this decision. It is not an easy decision to make. We have to consider lots of scientific advice on the risk to pollinators and to the sugar beet crop.
We have just published our indicative plan for the roll-out of the sustainable farming incentive standards, which includes the introduction of paid integrated pest management actions. That includes paying farmers to carry out an assessment and produce an integrated pest management plan; introduce natural methods of pest management, such as flower-rich grass margins or field strips, or companion cropping; and take steps to move towards insecticide-free farming. That will support farmers to minimise the use of pesticides and will incentivise the uptake of alternative ways to control pests.
Integrated pest management is at the heart of our approach to support farmers to practise sustainable pest management. We have already commissioned a package of research projects that will enable farmers to access the most effective IPM tools available, and ensure that we understand changing trends in pest threats across the UK.
As I have outlined, the decision to allow the limited and controlled use of neonicotinoids on a single crop has not been taken lightly and is based on robust scientific assessment. We will continue to work hard to support our farmers and protect and restore our vital pollinator populations.
Luke Pollard
It is great that so many Members contributed to this debate and shared concerns about the Government’s approval of Cruiser SB. I have to say I am a little disappointed that the Minister managed to avoid answering nearly every question posed to him. He did not say why he ignored the science in approving Cruiser SB. He did not say how he applied the precautionary principle to his decision. He did not answer any of the questions I posed to him about the science relating to field edge margins and catchment areas, and nor did he address the concerns about run-off raised by my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Samantha Dixon).
I say gently and politely to the Minister that this problem and this scrutiny are not going away. Bee-killing pesticides are wrong. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) said, the time is running out for the Government to do the right thing before the next Labour Government do the right thing and ban bee-killing pesticides.
I say to the Minister politely that I do not think he has made a very good case for the Government’s approval of bee-killing pesticides, but there is still a chance to put a letter in the House of Commons Library setting out why the decision was taken, why the science was ignored and, importantly, how the standards and principles set out in the legislation that his own Department passed in recent months apply to the decision. Why bee-killing pesticides have been authorised in the way they have been is incomprehensible, given the body of legislation, the documents published by DEFRA and the huge number of press releases issued by his Department talking about a nature-based recovery and nature-based solutions, which stand in stark contrast to the decision.
I thank hon. Members for their contributions. I think we have started an annual bee debate. I really hope that, this time next year, we will be able to talk about the other issues affecting pollinator health, such as the neonicotinoids in flea treatments for cats and dogs that pollute 99% of English rivers, rather than talking about a decision by Ministers to authorise yet again what seems like an annual and automatic approval for Cruiser SB in the face of Government advice that says they should not do that, public support for not doing that and political opposition to the decision. I really hope we will see better from the Government over the coming 12 months.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the use of bee-killing pesticides in agriculture.
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: Diagnosis
(1 year, 4 months ago)
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Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered attention deficit hyperactivity disorder diagnosis waiting times.
It is pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes, and an honour to open this debate to recognise the importance of early diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and to draw attention to the current severe delay in the diagnosis of it.
An early diagnosis of ADHD will have a significant impact on an individual’s life: on their development, self-confidence and self-awareness, and their physical and mental wellbeing. For someone with ADHD, a diagnosis can help them understand why they are struggling with life. It allows them to understand their impulsivity, hyperactivity, inattention and sensitivity to the simplest distractions, even to everyday noises.
Instead of having a life in which they feel lost and alone, they can find and understand themselves, and gain a feeling of belonging and control. It is believed that one in 20 adults in the UK has ADHD, according to ADHD Foundation, but only 120,000 have had a formal diagnosis. The charity says that that is because of a combination of poor understanding of the condition, stigma and delays in diagnosis.
Diagnosis is essential, especially when there is an identifiable link between ADHD and suicide: one in 10 boys and one in four girls who have ADHD attempt to take their own life. Early diagnosis can prevent those tragedies and offer an answer to those suffering from the condition.
Today’s debate has come about because of the tenacity of a constituent of mine, Tanya Bardsley. She has been open about the amount of pain ADHD has caused her, her difficulty getting the condition diagnosed and, in particular, the added difficulty for girls and women in being diagnosed. She allowed herself to be filmed last year, and shared that in an ITV documentary, “Me and ADHD”.
Today, Tanya is a very accomplished woman. She runs four businesses, a charity and a household, as well as being a mum and a wife. But it took her almost 40 years to understand her anxiety, depression and impulsivity. In fact, it took her to almost six weeks before her 40th birthday to get diagnosed. Tanya described her ADHD as like having
“17 TVs on in your head. You can’t focus and there’s lots of noise in your head. You feel like you’re being smothered, overwhelmed, like you’re drowning in life. You’re living with this inner restlessness, which is exhausting and relentless.”
So much was that the case that, even before Tanya was 15 years of age, she had tried to take her own life three times. From the age of 18, Tanya was given antidepressants for depression and anxiety. Tanya saw more than 20 doctors, who just kept changing her prescription, but the medication never worked. It was not until she eventually went to see a private psychiatrist specialising in anxiety that she was diagnosed with ADHD. Once Tanya got her diagnosis, she said,
“Finally, I know what’s wrong with me. After years of struggling and on loads of different medications, it now all just makes sense. To be honest with you, I have never felt better.”
Tanya’s diagnosis was very late and that is why she made it her mission, along with others, to ensure that ADHD is diagnosed much earlier in life, in early years of education.
ADHD was first mentioned in 1902, when a British paediatrician, Sir George Frederic Still, found that some children were affected but that they could not control their behaviour in the way that a typical child could. He also noted that it was not because they were not intelligent; it was because they could not control themselves. Over the past century, the understanding of ADHD has increased, as have diagnosis and treatments. It is defined as
“an ongoing pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity that interferes with functioning or development.”
In 2000, three sub-types of ADHD were recognised and are now used by healthcare professionals: combined type ADHD; predominantly inattentive type ADHD; and predominantly hyperactive-impulsive type ADHD. Six or more symptoms of inattention need to be proved for children up to the age of 16, and five or more for adolescents aged 17 or over and adults. Symptoms of inattention have to have been present for at least six months and have to be inappropriate to the person’s development level—for example, often failing to pay close attention to detail; carelessness with homework, work or other activities; having trouble sustaining attention during tasks or play; often seeming not to listen when spoken to directly; often not following through on instructions; failing to finish chores or homework; and having trouble organising tasks and activities.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing the matter forward. I deal with this in my office every week of my life, so I am aware of the issue.
In Northern Ireland, which I know is not the Minister’s responsibility, there is going to be a gap of £110 million in the budget. This is my point to the right hon. Lady: the first sacrifice is often special needs provision, the cutting of which cannot be acceptable because it presents a risk to children who simply need a little extra help at an early stage in life. The risk is that a different way of doing things will be overlooked and the children will be abandoned at the most vulnerable point in their education. The right hon. Lady has said, “Get the diagnosis early,” and I agree with her. Does she agree that the Minister needs to respond positively?
Esther McVey
I do indeed, and I believe the Minister will respond positively. As well as early diagnosis in respect of inattention, which the hon. Gentleman and I are saying is important, hyperactivity and impulsivity also need to be seen and recognised.
The criterion is six or more symptoms of hyperactivity or impulsivity for children up to the age of 16, and five or more for adolescents aged 17 or over and adults. Those symptoms have to have been present for at least six months to the extent that they are causing disruption and are inappropriate to the person’s development level. That means a person fidgets, taps hands or feet, squirms on a seat, often leaves a seat in situations in which remaining on the seat would have been expected, often runs or climbs in situations where that is not appropriate, is often unable to play or take part in leisure activities quietly, is often “on the go” and “driven by a motor”, and talks excessively.
In addition, the following conditions must be met: several inattention or hyperactive-impulse systems were present before the age of 12; several symptoms are present in two or more settings, whether that be the home, school or work, with friends or relatives, or during other activities; there is clear evidence that the symptoms interfere with, or reduce the quality of, social, school or work functioning; and the symptoms are not better explained by a different mental disorder.
Quite strict conditions must be met, and we know what the symptoms are. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, there needs to be an early diagnosis. Indeed, the stipulation is that the symptoms have to have been present before the age of 12, so we need that early diagnosis. To enable early diagnosis for a child, there needs to be a clear pathway for referrals from the school or GP to the specialist, but that is not working swiftly enough, although it is essential. The number of people in the UK affected by ADHD is 2.6 million, according to the ADHD UK website. Of those, 708,000 are children and 1.9 million are adults. More than 117,000 individuals receive a prescription for ADHD medicine.
I note that in the papers only this week, concerns were expressed by some in the scientific and medical profession about overdiagnosis, as parents and individuals go online to self-diagnose, but I would say that self-diagnosis possibly came about because people have not been able to see a GP or a specialist and they have gone online. Yes, there could be overdiagnosis, but the bigger concerns are underdiagnosis of those who need a diagnosis, and securing rapid access to a professional to establish what they have and what treatment they need.
I note, too, that the journey for girls and the outward signs for them are very different from those for boys. As such, ADHD tends to be picked up in boys and not so much in girls. The symptoms for boys are more well known. Boys display a sort of naughtiness—a disruptive way of acting, being the class joker or trying to disrupt others. That gets them noticed. However, the symptoms for women and girls do not involve being naughty; rather, they seem more as though they are “away with the fairies” or distracted. Because their behaviour is non-disruptive, they do not get the attention they deserve and therefore remain untreated.
ADHD impacts the lives of those living with it very differently, and they all cope with it differently. However, its impact is significant. Adults with ADHD are five times more likely to try to take their own lives than those without it. That is a tragedy in and of itself, and why a diagnosis needs to be made. Given the impact of ADHD on people’s lives, Tanya and many others are calling for early diagnosis. Tanya was diagnosed when she went private, a luxury that most of my constituents cannot afford. The process usually involves a 60 to 90-minute consultation with a psychiatrist. There is not a scan or diagnostic test as such; people need to meet somebody who can look at their condition.
However, even if a referral is made by a professional, people risk being screened out. Thanks to ADHD UK, I have some local data on the screening out of referrals from the Cheshire area. The reason could be that, because screening is not part of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines, people are blocked from receiving an assessment. However, blocking people from an assessment, despite a qualified referral, does not make sense. As we know, it will stop people getting the care they need. In the last three years, 84% of girls put forward for assessment in one part of Cheshire were removed following a local health authority assessment, despite girls being known to be under-diagnosed and despite the higher suicide risks for young girls. To obtain that information, ADHD UK had to submit a freedom of information request to each integrated care board. That is how we found out.
The problem is significant, it is sizeable and it needs to be sorted out, so these are my questions for the Minister. First, will she meet me and my constituent Tanya Bardsley to discuss ADHD and what steps the Government can take to ensure earlier diagnosis? Secondly, will the Government start collecting national data, as is the case for autism, and introduce an ADHD wait list dashboard, as there also is for autism? I thank the Minister for her time today and ADHD UK for all its hard work in getting this data about Cheshire to me and, of course, to Tanya Bardsley.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Esther McVey) for securing this important debate. I believe there are two more debates on this issue next week in this Chamber, so she is leading the way in securing this debate, as a starter for that further consideration.
This is a really important issue. We know that people with ADHD have positive traits, strengths and abilities, such as creativity, resilience and the ability to hyper-focus. My right hon. Friend referred to her constituent Tanya Bardsley, who has shown that people with ADHD can be extremely successful, but there are also challenges, as she clearly set out, in living with ADHD and in getting a diagnosis, which is often necessary for people to get the support they need. I am not going to pretend that there is not a problem with accessing assessments at the moment. Many of my constituents also come to see me about that, and many have to go private to get a diagnosis. I fully acknowledge that that is not acceptable.
NICE, which provides the evidence-based guidance, says that commissioners and providers should have due regard for the evidence base when designing and commissioning services. However, my right hon. Friend highlighted a number of key issues that hamper how patients and their families access services. NICE does not actually recommend a maximum waiting time for a diagnosis, so there is no benchmark or gold standard to measure services against. That means that services sometimes struggle to meet what we would consider an acceptable waiting time for assessment. NICE sets out considerations about who should make a diagnosis and the criteria for diagnosis, but the long waits are due to the fact that there is no benchmark for the maximum waiting time.
The second issue that my right hon. Friend highlighted is a national dataset for ADHD assessment waiting times. There is no national collection of data and I note that she said that charities have gone to each ICB for data. In a way, it is encouraging that that data is there, but we need to pull it together nationally so that we have oversight and, as she put it, a waiting list dashboard that we can see. That would be useful not only to see what is happening in terms of best practice but to identify any gaps in certain parts of the country that may have longer waiting times than others.
I am certainly happy to pledge to my right hon. Friend that I will look at that. We are doing so much work in this area at the moment. For decades, mental health services, including neurodiversity services, have been the Cinderella service in health, with physical health much more predominant. We are making the change now to achieve parity of esteem between the two services, but there is a lot of work to do to catch up, and having the data to be able to measure waiting times and standards is a key part of that.
As my right hon. Friend set out, diagnosing ADHD is challenging, because there is no definitive test for it. There are a number of indicators that could suggest an assessment is needed, but someone needs to be seen for that to happen. ADHD often exists in conjunction with other conditions, whose symptoms can overlap and mask those of ADHD. The NICE guidelines aim to improve the diagnosis of ADHD, as well as the quality of care and support that people with ADHD receive.
The NICE guidelines also recognise that ADHD is under-diagnosed in women and girls, and that the indicators are very different. In my work in mental health, we see the consequences of that in young women and girls being admitted to mental health in-patient facilities and having a higher rate of suicide. My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct in what she says.
There are a number of ways in which we are trying to improve access to assessment and diagnosis. Many children and young people seek diagnosis through child and adolescent mental health services, but there are pressures on those services too. We are providing funding to increase access; in the last financial year, £79 million was allocated, which allowed 22,500 more children and young people to access mental health services. As my right hon. Friend eloquently said, it is vital that a person gets a diagnosis as early as possible in their life, so that they get support as soon as possible.
We know that children with ADHD and other neurodiverse conditions such as autism can thrive in and out of school if they get the support they need. We have a trial under way in Bradford looking at an early diagnosis tool to help teachers, parents and others to identify the needs of those with neurodiverse conditions. If successful, that could be expanded across the country. I will update Members as soon as we have the results of the pilot, because we are keen to see improvements in attendance, behaviour and educational outcomes in schools, as well as in the quality of life experienced by children and their parents. The tool is not intended to replace clinical diagnosis, but it should enable support to be made available earlier to children and their parents while they wait for an assessment and a diagnosis.
We also have the special educational needs and disabilities Green Paper, which sets out proposals to improve the outcomes of children and young people with SEND, including those with ADHD, and we will publish a full response to the Green Paper in an improvement plan imminently. Hopefully, my right hon. Friend will feel that that addresses some of the issues that she has raised today.
One of the best forms of practical support that I have seen is the mental health support teams that are now being placed in schools. There are currently 287, which support 4,700 schools, or around 26% of pupils. That figure will increase to 35% of pupils in April. The teams support teachers to identify children who may have ADHD, other neurodiverse conditions or mental health issues, and get them signposted and into the system much quicker. The service is making a real difference on the ground, and we are keen to expand it as quickly as possible. As my right hon. Friend said, children and young people with ADHD suffer higher rates of anxiety—nearly 50% higher than the general population—which is why we need to get that support in as quickly and easily as possible.
I acknowledge that we are not where we want to be with support for ADHD, whether on diagnosis, support or access to assessments. When we respond to the Green Paper, we will hopefully show that we are serious about changing that and making support more easily available. The Bradford pilot will hopefully improve access to services, but the key is getting the data. I commit today to look at the data on waiting times and at a dashboard, because we cannot plan services if we do not know how many people are waiting for an assessment and an ADHD diagnosis. I completely acknowledge that point.
I am happy to meet my right hon. Friend’s constituent Tanya Bardsley. She sounds like an amazing woman—experts by experience are very valuable indeed. I know that there is more to do to improve access to ADHD assessments, but I hope that I have reassured my right hon. Friend that we take the issue seriously.
Question put and agreed to.
Violence Against Women and Girls: Sentencing
(1 year, 4 months ago)
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Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)
I remind hon. Members that they should not reference live cases during this debate. If Members wish to speak in the debate, they should bob in the usual manner. If there is a Division, I will suspend the sitting for 15 minutes, but if we can get back sooner, we can start again earlier.
Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered sentencing for violence against women and girls.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, and a great honour to open this debate on a matter that colleagues and I feel passionately about. I speak as the co-chair of the all-party group on women’s health, and as a mum who feels passionately about ensuring that we create a country in which every little girl is safe to grow up without fear of violence against her. Effective sentencing is one of the tools we can use to deter perpetrators, and it also encourages victims of violence to come forward.
Sadly, violence against women and girls is still a reality across our whole planet. Before I turn to the UK and to Devon and Cornwall—my police area—I want to put on the record some truly horrifying statistics. A Safer Cornwall presentation to Cornwall councillors in December by the domestic abuse and sexual violence co-ordinator stated that globally, one in three women and girls experiences physical or sexual violence in their lifetime.
Violence against women and girls covers a range of unacceptable and deeply distressing crimes, including domestic violence and abuse, sexual violence, child sexual abuse, stalking, so-called honour-based violence including forced marriage and female genital mutilation, gang-related violence and human trafficking. Although men and boys also suffer from many of those forms of abuse, those crimes disproportionately affect women and girls.
One in three women will experience violence by a man they know, and women suffer an average of 35 assaults before they ring the police. The most dangerous time is when a woman is trying to leave an abusive partner. Abuse can often start or increase when a woman is pregnant, leading to trauma or worse for her and her unborn child.
Statistically, women go to 10 different agencies before they get any help. Where the mother is being abused, up to 70% of those fathers or stepfathers are also abusing their children. Less than 25% of domestic abuse is reported. Fifty per cent. of all rape is carried out by husbands or male partners, and two women are killed every week by a partner or an ex-partner. I thank the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips), who is not here, for remembering each of those women killed and reading their names on International Women’s Day every year. That serves as a powerful and sobering reminder that women and girls still face violence, even in our neighbourhoods. That violence can affect women across all social and ethnic groups, and can leave the victim and her children with devastating scars, both physical and mental.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this really important debate. She is speaking passionately about these issues, which are close to my heart. I was a domestic violence lawyer for 23 years prior to entering politics, and I had to obtain many, many injunction orders to protect victims. Does she agree that domestic violence is abhorrent and inexcusable, as it crushes the victim’s self-confidence and self-esteem, wrecks families and ruins lives? During many incidents, children are watching, learning and being devastated.
Cherilyn Mackrory
My hon. Friend, who has a wealth of experience on these matters, is absolutely right. That is why this is such an important debate. Although the title is “Violence Against Women and Girls”, the violence affects all children who witness it or are subjected to it.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Member on securing this important debate. She is absolutely right that the violence is corrosive, because it leads to childhood trauma, and from that childhood trauma comes the next generation of violence. Does she agree that we need much better trauma-informed services across the board?
Cherilyn Mackrory
I agree, and later in my speech I come on to educating boys and girls on breaking the cycle of violence. The hon. Lady is right that we need to ensure that we manage their trauma to get them to that point. In the last year, 34,408 violent offences were recorded in my police area of Devon and Cornwall, which is about 3,500 more crimes than in the year before the pandemic. That is consistent with national trends, which show that 2.1 million violent crimes were recorded by the police in England and Wales—up more than 20% on pre-pandemic levels. Around 2.4 million people in England and Wales experienced domestic abuse in 2022, and around one in five homicides was related to domestic abuse. There were 1,765 convictions in the year to June 2022, up a third from the year before. Convictions are up by 23%.
The language that we use in this place should ensure two things. First, victims of violent crime and abuse must be assured that the police, courts and society as a whole are on their side. That means stopping the dangerous language suggesting that this Government have somehow decriminalised rape. I am generally not the most political of my colleagues, and I like to work collaboratively across the House wherever I can, but when I hear those claims and similar accusations from Members at the Opposition Dispatch Box, as I have done several times in the last few months, my heart sinks. We need to encourage more women to come forward, and to have faith in the authorities. If I were to make a plea to the Opposition, it would be to cease using that language. Those claims embolden perpetrators, and I am certain that the Opposition do not intend that outcome when they say those things.
We also need to encourage and properly resource the good practice that has been shown to work around the country, so that arrests can be made quickly, and so that conviction and sentencing is based on clear evidence that is gathered swiftly, with as little further distress to victims as possible. If there is to be an effective deterrent for perpetrators, the outcome has to be that victims are encouraged and nurtured when they come forward, and that convictions are swift.
In June 2022, Devon and Cornwall police published its violence against women and girls delivery plan, which has been developed in consultation with stakeholders. It is focused on building trust and confidence, relentless perpetrator pursuit and creating safer spaces in public, online and at home. Operation Soteria Bluestone, an approach pioneered by Avon and Somerset police, our neighbouring force, is now being rolled out in our force area. It aims to bring together criminal justice agencies and academics in order to deliver a more victim-focused and responsive approach, based on six key pillars of action.
Ahead of the introduction of Soteria Bluestone, Devon and Cornwall police launched Operation Gemstone in Plymouth. The six-month pilot is based on the findings of Soteria Bluestone, and provides four specialist investigative teams focused on rape and serious sexual offences in the city. Specialist teams have received bespoke additional training, benefited from improved supervision, and had enhanced engagement with the Crown Prosecution Service and partners, including independent sexual violence advocates, to address domestic abuse perpetrators’ behaviours.
Devon and Cornwall secured £417,000 in funding from the Home Office for 2022-23 to support projects across the peninsula. These projects involve working with people who cause harm to address their offending behaviours and prevent future victimisation. The funding also enables community safety partnerships to deliver behaviour change programmes, which ensure that those who cause harm can access vital support for mental health issues, drug and alcohol addiction and so on. Often financial stress is a factor as well.
Our area has also recruited a new domestic abuse behaviour change strategic lead to deliver an 18-month project developing a new partnership strategy. That brings together partners to collaborate on improving the peninsula-wide approach to working with people who cause harm by domestic abuse, and to prevent sexual offending. We commission two services that work with sexual offence perpetrators.
The South West Community Chaplaincy also works with sex offenders who no longer pose a harm according to the probation service. The chaplaincy provides a mentoring service that helps practically as well as with the behavioural challenges of individuals, who are referred directly by Devon and Cornwall police.
Measures to increase physical safety in public spaces are important to combat the issue. That includes the £5 million safety of women at night fund, in addition to the safer streets fund, which focuses on the prevention of violence against women and girls in public spaces at night, including in the night-time economy. A new online tool, StreetSafe, provides women with a way to anonymously pinpoint areas where they have felt unsafe and to state why they felt unsafe there. It could be because of the lack of closed-circuit television or lighting, or because of the people they found around them. More than 15,000 reports have been submitted so far.
The Government have introduced a new national police lead on violence against women and girls; I suspect that the Minister will tell us more about that. The lead will be the point of contact for every police force, so that best practice is shared around the country. Following the end-to-end review of how the criminal justice system responds to rape, the Government announced an ambitious action plan to increase the number of rape cases that reach court without compromising defendants’ right to a fair trial. It includes plans for better data extraction technology that will, for example, reduce the time that victims spend without their phones; the aim is for the police to return devices within 24 hours. Too often, victims feel that they are being investigated and do not feel supported.
A new approach to investigations will be established that places greater emphasis on understanding the suspect’s behaviour, rather than placing undue focus on the victim’s credibility. More rape victims will not need to attend their trial; instead, a cross-examination video can be recorded earlier in the process, away from the courtroom. That is key, as it will mean that the victim’s ordeal—physically, at least—is now over, and she no longer has to dread a courtroom appearance with an alleged perpetrator.
Over £170 million has been invested in victim services that provide more specialist help, such as rape support centres. That includes £27 million of national investment over two years to recruit more independent sexual violence advisers and independent domestic abuse advisers to ensure victims can access support. We need to ensure that the people offering that support are specialised and experienced, so that the victims get the right help; if they do not, it can take a lot longer for victims to recover emotionally from the trauma they have faced.
The Domestic Abuse Act 2021 introduced measures to boost protections for survivors and clamp down on perpetrators. The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 ended the automatic halfway release of prisoners sentenced for serious crimes. That includes rapists on standard sentences of four years or more. They will be required to spend longer in custody. The Domestic Abuse Act 2021 also creates a legal definition of domestic abuse. It clarifies that abuse can be not only sexual or physical, but financial, verbal or emotional, and, critically, that it is about patterns of abuse over time. Children are recognised as victims, as they also witness the abuse, as my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) said.
The definition of “controlling or coercive behaviour” has been extended to include abuse where perpetrators and victims no longer live together. We must remember that it was only in the 1990s that rape within marriage was made illegal. We are still on this journey, and we need to accelerate, because although we are doing a good job, the issue is so multifaceted that it will take a long time to get there.
The Government have introduced changes that will allow victims of domestic abuse more time to report incidents of assault or battery. Previously, prosecutions had to commence within six months of the offence. That requirement has changed to six months from the date the incident was reported, with a time limit of two years to bring a prosecution.
Sentencing must remain independent of the Government. However, this Government have ensured that the criminal justice system has the tools necessary to deal with offenders appropriately. The number of custodial sentences has been going up since 2018. The Government have increased the maximum penalties for stalking and harassment—we have a new offence of stalking—and we have ended the early release of violent and sexual offenders from prison. Sentencing is a vital part of the solution. We will seek to transform the whole of society’s response to prevent offending, support victims and pursue perpetrators, as well as strengthen the systems and processes needed to deliver our goals.
As part of their implementation of the violence against women and girls strategy, Devon and Cornwall police have launched their part of the national communications campaign, Enough. The second wave of the campaign started in October 2022. It focuses on a range of safe ways for a bystander to intervene if they witness violence against women and girls, helps to tackle barriers to intervening, and ensures prompt action. Also, across England and Wales, £55 million has been allocated to communities through the safer streets fund. Projects—some in Truro and Falmouth—include the education of night-time economy workers, extra closed-circuit television, and street lighting. All that helps us to change societal behaviours, so that no one thinks that violence is acceptable, people are given the confidence to go out at night, and victims have greater confidence to come forward.
Wera Hobhouse
The hon. Lady points out that it is important that women feel safe when they go out at night. An appalling thing that happens time and again—we are trying to do something about it in Parliament—is spiking. Will she join me in condemning spiking as one of the vilest forms of violence against women and girls?
Cherilyn Mackrory
The hon. Lady is again absolutely spot on. We have issues with that, particularly in Falmouth, where we have a big student population, as she does in Bath. It takes a lot of agencies to come together to get on top of spiking. She is absolutely right to ensure that it is part of this debate.
Those who commit certain offences with a maximum penalty of life imprisonment, including rape, manslaughter and grievous bodily harm with intent, and who are sentenced to a standard determinate sentence of more than four years’ imprisonment are now required to serve two thirds of the sentence in prison before automatic release, instead of half. That is an improvement, but colleagues across the House will agree, having heard me say “four years”, that we should be going for a longer sentence when someone has, in effect, ruined a person’s life.
I support the appointment of a National Police Chiefs Council lead for violence against women and girls to drive a better policing response. It has been announced that we will add violence against women and girls to the strategic policing requirement, meaning that it will be set out as a national threat for forces to respond to alongside other threats such as terrorism, serious and organised crime, and child sexual abuse.
There are a lot of measures there, which are welcome, but a lot more needs to be done. Thirty-five per cent. of violent crimes are alcohol-related. We need to tackle that with more alcohol addiction programmes that target the behaviours that lead to violence, and pre-empt those behaviours at an earlier age. The education of boys—and girls, actually—at an appropriate age is a way to try to change inherited behaviours. We need to get better at that.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The hon. Lady and others will have noticed a story in the press at the beginning of this week, I think, that said that four in 10 young boys watch pornographic material, which not only sexualises ladies, but shows violence towards them. That needs to be controlled, and we wish the Government to do that. Does she wish the Government to bring in legislation to ensure that access to such pornographic material is stopped?
Cherilyn Mackrory
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The Minister might be able to clarify for us what part of the issue will be tackled in the Online Safety Bill, which covers some of it. I hope we also get clarification on what will be outstanding. I believe that the Bill is still in the House of Lords, and we are waiting for it to come back, but more work remains to be done. If it is not being done, perhaps we can ensure that it is done by the time the Bill is given Royal Assent.
I was just coming on to that subject. An Ofsted report found that nearly 90% of girls and nearly 50% of boys said that they or their peers were being sent explicit pictures or videos of things that they did not want to see “a lot or sometimes”. Children and young people said that sexual harassment occurs so frequently that it has become “commonplace”, and 92% of girls and 74% of boys said that sexist name-calling happens “a lot or sometimes” to them or their peers.
A survey of young people also found that 49% of boys and 33% of girls aged 13 to 14 thought that hitting would be okay in a relationship in at least one of 12 scenarios presented to them. As a society, we have lot of work to do to let people know that it is never acceptable to hit.
Finally, although I know Departments are working incredibly hard on this, there is some work to do to help with the court backlog induced by covid. We need to do a lot to help to reduce that; I know the Minister and his Department are working incredibly hard on it, and perhaps he will be able to comment and provide an update on where we are. There is probably more that we can do in the forthcoming Victims Bill, and I am sure the Minister will probably be able to tell us something—not everything —about how we will tackle a lot of these issues in the Bill as well.
Violence against women and girls is still a plague on our communities. Convictions and sentencing are increasing, but that is only a small part of a complicated picture. We all have a responsibility to help to end the violence, so that all little girls can grow up in a happier and safer world.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is an absolute pleasure to speak in the debate. I thank the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) for leading the debate and setting the scene so well. She is correct that what we see happening today with violence against women is horrendous. Just last week, we had a debate secured by the hon. Member for South West Devon (Sir Gary Streeter) specifically on the subject of violence against women and girls in Plymouth. He put forward the example of a plan that they are introducing in Plymouth with the co-operation of the local council, police and other services as well.
By their very nature, these debates are never comfortable to be involved in, as we speak of horrendous things. I always bring in the Northern Ireland aspect and the horrendous figures in Northern Ireland on violent, sexual and verbal abuse. For that reason, I am here to engage with others on the state of our sentencing laws, what more we can do and, more importantly, how to protect victims from further trauma and heartache.
Murders in Northern Ireland are quite horrendous. In the year 2019-20, 21 women were killed; in 2020-21, 22 were killed; and in 2021-22, 24 were killed. Those figures underline just how bad things are in Northern Ireland. It is absolutely terrible to say this, but it is a fact: we have the worst murder rate for women in all the regions of the United Kingdom. The only place in Europe that beats those murder figures is Romania. We have a real issue to be addressed. It is not the Minister’s responsibility, by the way, but I am asking for tougher sentencing laws—that will be my request off the back of the debate.
Look at the figures and what they mean. A young lady, Natalie McNally, was murdered just before Christmas, and no-one has yet been held accountable for that horrendous murder. She was stabbed multiple times, and she and her unborn baby were both killed as a result. Such things are truly very worrying. For victims of any crime and their families, a just punishment can provide some sense of safety, especially when it comes to physical, verbal or sexual violence against women and young girls. I cannot even begin to imagine the impact that those crimes leave on someone; they will bear it all their days.
Recently, I read of a story back home where a man received only 140 hours of community service in court for physically abusing his wife on two occasions. He had not learned his lesson from the first time, and he did it again. They slapped his wrist—I mean, really? I would expect a custodial sentence. The victim of that crime stated that she felt
“let down at the light sentence he received”.
“Let down”—those are just two words that I would use to describe that sentence. Another two words would be “insulting” and “unjust”. It clearly does not make that person accountable for what he did.
In December past, the Police Service of Northern Ireland arrested 39 people in a specific and focused Northern Ireland operation targeting violence against women and girls. Over 20% of crimes reported to the PSNI have a domestic motivation, and they can be as often as one every 16 minutes; in the time we take for this debate, we could have 15 or thereabouts.
Mrs Helen Grant
We certainly have more laws now to protect victims than we did 50 years ago and we also have more organisations to support victims. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we also need to do much more in terms of prevention?
Jim Shannon
I wholeheartedly agree. To be fair, the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth mentioned that. We need to focus on that, and the Minister might give an indication of what will be done. It is right to say there is more focus on it now. As I said last week, I am of a generation that means that respect for ladies was at the top of my upbringing as a young boy in Northern Ireland. Perhaps some of our generation had a bit more respect, or perhaps things were happening but we did not know about them. That could be the case—I do not know—but we need to look at bringing in strong prevention.
Allowing the police to investigate is one thing, but ensuring that a just and deserving sentence is given is the main factor in all of this. I am clearly asking for better sentencing. I do not want a slap on the wrist for a guy who thinks he can beat up his wife two times and it will not matter. He will do it a third time, and what has he learned? That is the question I am asking.
There is a direct correlation between repeat offending and prison sentences. The Department of Justice back home revealed that adults released from prison had a proven reoffending rate of 38.6%. I am all for rehabilitation in prison. I want to see people doing better and coming out with a changed attitude to life and to how they can contribute to society, rather than be negative towards it. But those figures are massive, and I have no doubt that a proportion of them feature violent crimes against women and girls. The figures in Northern Ireland already show that many people are facing custodial sentences for that reason.
Figures show that the same is the case for sexual assaults. Often, someone is convicted, serves a year or two in prison, is released and then goes on to ruin someone else’s life. I sometimes find it difficult to read about some of those cases in the papers. I see the headlines and start to read, but the horror of what has happened means that many times I cannot continue or conclude that story. I tend to agree that if harsher sentences were introduced at the start for violent occurrences towards women and girls, greater rehabilitation could take place and criminals could realise their place in society as a civilian and not as an abuser.
In 2021, UK Victims’ Commissioner, Dame Vera Baird, called for all domestic homicides to be reviewed. I totally agree. She stated that that is evidenced by falling criminal justice outcomes for crimes that disproportionately affect women and girls, particularly rape. An important point I want to put on record is that women in domestically abusive relationships are more likely to raise a weapon to defend themselves against an abusive partner, which tends to attract, by the nature of the law of this land, a higher sentence than the initial abuse inflicted by the man. Can that be? That a lady who defends and protects herself, under great trial and violence, gets a higher sentence than the guy who was beating and trying to kill her. There is something not right with that and I cannot understand it. That information was gathered by the Centre for Women’s Justice to ensure that courts recognise the necessity of sometimes using a weapon in retaliation when in fear for one’s life, to defend one’s life or those of one’s children.
I met this week with the local police chief in my constituency. That is not the responsibility of the Minister, but I want to use this example to give the Northern Ireland perspective. We discussed the slashed policing budget. One of my immediate concerns is the need to ringfence the officers and support available for victims of domestic violence and abuse. The first point of contact must be a safe place, with trained officers who can help to ensure that the case makes its way to prosecution, and we need to ensure that police officers can provide that first point of support at any time of day or night. I do not say this to give the Minister a big head, but he responds to our requests in a very positive way and I am sure that he will give us some reassurance, which is what we seek.
To conclude, it is important that we do all we can to shed light on the situation and support those whom the issue directly impacts. Blatant evidence and numerous first-hand accounts show that not enough is being done to ensure that criminals who commit violence against women and girls are sentenced accordingly. I want to see tougher sentences. I want to see those people chastised and in jail for the terrible crimes that they commit. Some of the figures are abhorrent. To tackle the issue, we must consider what impression the current sentences make, and clearly they are not doing much at the moment. I call on the Ministry of Justice and Home Department to consider the issue for review to ensure that women and girls get the assurance that they require and that criminals get the punishment they deserve.
Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Robertson. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) on securing this important debate. I am also pleased to see that the Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), will respond.
Tackling violence against women and girls has been, and rightly continues to be, a key focus for the Government, and indeed for all of us across this House. There is a long heritage of legislation brought about by Conservatives in this area, which includes the Children Act 1989, the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the Modern Slavery Act 2015, the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 and my own small and very discreet Taxis and Private Hire Vehicles (Safeguarding and Road Safety) Act 2022, also known as Sian’s law, which was greatly assisted by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust.
All that legislation contains steps and measures designed to protect people and underpin our growing toolbox for tackling violence against women and girls. Having sat on the Women and Equalities Committee and the Bill Committee for the landmark Domestic Abuse Act, and having regularly engaged with my local police, my local domestic abuse refuge—Family Help—and the night-time economy in Darlington, I am aware of the need for us to do more to protect people, so I welcome today’s debate.
I welcome the fact that Darlington has been successful in multiple bids for money from the safer streets fund. That has enabled Darlington Borough Council and Durham constabulary to take more action to help safeguard people in our night-time economy. Indeed, the hub at Number Forty, which is open from 9 pm to 3 am on Friday and Saturday nights, provides a safe space, and was again helped by funding from the safer streets fund. For those who have concerns about spiking, including a number of constituents, whom I am due to meet shortly, who have been victims of that offence, that is a hugely important and reassuring service. The tests that are available at Number Forty are also available through the police, and they have been funded through the safer streets fund. As with any offence, apprehending the perpetrator is key, and so too is the sentence handed down. I would welcome the Minister’s comments on sentencing for spiking offences.
I also praise the work of those in the CCTV control room in Darlington. Last May, there was an incident in which two men were spotted preying on an intoxicated woman. Camera operators from Darlington Borough Council became suspicious when they spotted the two men sitting with the woman; they continued to monitor the situation, and witnessed the men touching the woman inappropriately. The operators immediately rang for police assistance, and officers arrived at the location within minutes. I praise their diligence and swift action to protect that woman, which led to the conviction of the two perpetrators, who were given sentences of 22 months each.
Although capital spending on projects is essential, education is also essential to break cycles of abusive behaviour, which see children of families experiencing domestic abuse become perpetrators and victims in adulthood. Further investment in perpetrator programmes can also help to break those cycles, and the role of sentencing in acting as a deterrent is also crucial. We have done some great things, but it is clear we still need to do more. I look forward to the Minister’s response, particularly about what further plans the Government have for tougher sentencing for violence against women and girls.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) on securing this debate and leading it in such a comprehensive way. It is a complicated and difficult issue. It is as old as the ages, and this is the time when we should change it. I am pleased there is cross-party consensus that we need to do more and better, but hopefully we are getting on to the right path to tackle this insidious and awful situation that still continues.
According to Rape Crisis, five in six women who are raped do not report it. Charging and conviction rates are among the lowest ever recorded. In my local authority of Bath and North East Somerset, police have logged a record number of sexual offences. However, the justice system is failing women and girls in this country. It is a well-known national scandal that only 3% of rape cases have led to charges against the perpetrator. If we are to improve sentencing outcomes, we need to improve conviction rates.
Female victims of violence are put under a microscope. They are subjected to what Big Brother Watch describes as “digital strip searches”. Victims fear that they have no choice but to hand over their private data, including social media messages, call records, photos and even things that they have deleted. The Centre for Women’s Justice reported one woman fearing her case would be closed if she refused to provide that very invasive data. She was asked to provide medical and counselling notes over the two-year investigation. That is a disgraceful invasion of privacy, and victims should not be subjected to it. No victim of violence should be put under such scrutiny. The invasive process will only dissuade victims from pursuing their case through the criminal justice system.
The “Operation Soteria Bluestone Year One Report” quoted one officer who believed cases of rape and sexual offences were “pink and fluffy”. He avoided them in favour of burglary and robbery cases. The report also found that some serving officers do not think sexual offences should be a priority for policing. Those officers are more than just bad apples. They are part of a rotten culture of misogyny that undermines sentencing. The Operation Soteria Bluestone report argues that a microscopic focus on victims’ credibility creates
“conditions of virtual impunity for predatory men.”
Women’s Aid has warned that violent men are being handed lenient sentences that do not reflect the severity of their crimes, which we have already heard about. It is not fair to the women who deserve justice. We need a whole system change to shift this victim-blaming culture.
Fortunately, we are seeing some progress in creating that culture shift. I commend the work of Avon and Somerset police in that area. I recently visited the Operation Bluestone team in the police force to see the good work they are doing. By changing their investigative focus from the victim to the perpetrator, they have tripled charge rates and brought more cases to the Crown Prosecution Service. Avon and Somerset police are showing that it is possible with a dedicated, well-resourced team and the right leadership. Unfortunately, the team is constrained by the risk aversion of the wider criminal justice system, with charges only brought against a perpetrator when there is a guaranteed conviction. When I visited the police, I heard that they were focused on putting a very solid case forward to the Crown Prosecution Service, so that they got a conviction, but the CPS said, “Bring more cases to court, even if the chance might be 50:50, because if we have more cases coming to court, we have more cases that can possibly lead to a proper conviction.”
Cherilyn Mackrory
My concern—and I am happy to hear the hon. Lady’s side of this—is that if the evidence is not conclusive and a case gets put forward to the CPS, there is a potential for the victim to have to go through the trial only to not get a conviction. I can see both sides of the story.
Wera Hobhouse
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. This is a good debate about how we best get justice. I totally understand the trauma that victims face if they have to go through repeated processes and there is not a firm conviction at the end. That can be very traumatising, but there seems to be evidence that we get to more perpetrators, and that is what we need to do. We must get the message out to violent men that we are going to go after them.
It is important that we follow exactly how this works. I understand that there are pilots of specialist courts for these types of crime, where victims are treated much more sensitively, with an understanding of the trauma they are facing. For that reason, these specialist courts are so important, and I hope the Minister will talk about how they work and how we can learn from good practice.
Avon and Somerset police is showing what is possible with a dedicated, well-resourced team and the right leadership. Unfortunately, as I said, the team is constrained by the risk aversion of the wider criminal justice system, which means that cases with substantial evidence often get overlooked, allowing perpetrators to escape justice. Another thing that I learned during my three hours with Avon and Somerset police was that if there is such a focus on the victim, it gives time to the perpetrator to eradicate all their evidence. That is not only unfair; it adds insult to injury in these cases.
The police—certainly Avon and Somerset police—have learned from that and are changing the culture. They are also incredibly data-focused. As I understand it, by going back through historical data, they can now identify repeat offences that previously could not be captured. Avon and Somerset police is doing a wonderful job, and I wish that everybody in this room had a police force that did so well.
One step forward would be to expand the pilot of specialist courts, which would help to clear case backlogs and ensure that victims’ experiences are respected. These changes are essential for women and girls to receive proper justice. I am following the progress of the Ministry of Justice pilot programme with interest, and I am really interested to hear from the Minister about it.
Women and girls need to know that violent and abusive perpetrators are being brought to justice. As it stands, women are not getting the justice they deserve. Sentencing is part of the problem, but to even get to that stage, women must be given the confidence that the system is not stacked against them.
Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I thank the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) for securing this incredibly important debate. It is so important that we in this place speak about how best to end violence against women and girls.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) spoke about the shocking statistics on the murders of women in Northern Ireland and the need for tougher sentencing for perpetrators. The hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) spoke about some of the things that are happening in his constituency to tackle violence against women and girls and acknowledged that more needs to be done. The hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) talked about low charge rates and a system that often feels like it is failing women and girls. She also talked about the really good work that Avon and Somerset police is doing.
In 2021, the murders of Sarah Everard and Sabina Nessa triggered an outpouring of public anger and a demand for change, but that change has been slow to happen. It is no exaggeration to say that we are living through an age in which violence against women and girls is at an epidemic level. The most recently published annual data shows that 177 women were murdered by men, 70,000 women reported being raped—although we expect the true figure to be much higher—and almost 2.5 million women were victims of domestic abuse. Far too often, women are not safe at home, at work and on our streets.
We see a continued downward spiral in charging, prosecution and convictions for domestic abuse. Rape convictions are at a record low: little more than one in 100 rapes result in a charge and summons. I hear what the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth says about the Opposition’s language, but I am afraid it is the inaction of her Government, not the words of Opposition Members, that is letting victims down. Much more needs to be done.
For crimes such as stalking and harassment, all too often offenders receive sentences that do not reflect the suffering and the impact on the victim’s life. Women are being let down and offenders are being let off. If the public are to have confidence in the criminal justice system, we need appropriate sentences to deter potential offenders and deal just punishment for serious crimes. That is why, back in 2021, Labour outlined what needed to be done in our “Ending Violence Against Women and Girls” Green Paper.
Sentencing for domestic homicide seems to treat women as a different class of victim. Men who kill their partners often receive a far lesser sentence than those who kill others, despite the fact that the homicide has often taken place in the context of years—sometimes decades—of abuse. Seventy-two per cent. of female victims die in their homes, yet the law sets out a 10-year disparity between the starting point for a murder in the home and that for murders in other settings. It is almost as if being in a relationship with the victim serves as mitigation for the offender.
The case of Poppy Devey Waterhouse highlights that. She was just 24 when she was murdered in December 2018 by her ex-boyfriend. The couple had split in October 2018, but continued to live in the same flat in separate rooms. Poppy was due to move into a new property, but three days before that her killer stabbed her to death with a knife from the kitchen, inflicting more than 100 injuries. Poppy’s killer received a sentence of just 16 years, but if he had taken the weapon to the scene of the crime—deemed an aggravating factor—he would have received a much longer sentence. As Poppy’s mother Julie Devey outlined, that sentence ignores the fact that Poppy’s killer had no need to bring the weapon to the scene: he had knowledge that knives were already in the house and could be used for the attack.
Julie has campaigned on this issue and believes that the sentencing guidelines are simply wrong. She says:
“The savagery and violence of the attacks seem to count for nothing in the eyes of the law and this is infuriating”.
She wants domestic murder tariffs to reflect the severity of the crime, rather than the location of the killing. That seems a wholly just change, and I have heard Government Members speak eloquently and persuasively about it. I hope to see that covered in the sentencing review.
Labour called for a review of sentencing for domestic homicides and domestic abuse almost two years ago. Shortly afterwards, the Government announced their own review. It was originally due for completion in December 2021, but the report was delivered to the Justice Secretary last June, and we are still waiting for the review’s findings. In that time, we have been through three Justice Secretaries, and I am concerned that in the chaos and carousel of changing Ministers, this important matter has got lost. I hope the new Minister, who I know takes ending violence against women and girls incredibly seriously, will push this up the agenda so we can finally see change.
I turn to one of the most heinous crimes: rape. There is no statutory minimum sentence for rape, only a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. In 2022 alone, four rape convictions were referred to the Attorney General’s Office through the unduly lenient sentence scheme, with initial sentences ranging from two years and four months to six years and six months. One was for the rape of a child under 13; the sentence was increased from two years and four months to four years and four months. These truly appalling crimes are receiving truly lenient sentences. For too long the trauma inflicted on a victim by rape has not been fully recognised by the sentence, and this must end. That is why Labour would introduce a new statutory minimum sentence of seven years, which better reflects the seriousness of the crime.
A number of hon. Members have mentioned the scourge of spiking, which is deeply concerning. Despite a surge in reports of spiking to the police in recent years, there have been no more than 66 prosecutions in any year since 2010, and there were only 512 prosecutions in total between 2010 and 2020. The conviction rate has plummeted, with just 0.56 convictions per prosecution in that period. Under pressure from Labour, the Government have agreed to conduct a review into spiking, which we welcome.
Peter Gibson
I am grateful to the hon. Member for continuing to raise the issue of spiking. It is key that we identify the perpetrators of this offence. It is no good people coming forward and reporting it without us being able to prosecute, convict and sentence those people carrying out this heinous crime.
Ellie Reeves
I absolutely agree. These terrible crimes need to be taken with the utmost seriousness by the police. They need to be properly investigated, with all the evidence gathered, and prosecuted so that we see criminals convicted. We also need to ensure that when criminals are convicted, they are given sentences that reflect the severity of the crime.
I welcome the review to find out how widespread spiking is and who is being targeted, but it does not explicitly cover sentencing. It must. We need to introduce tougher spiking laws to deter people from committing this awful crime, as well as seeking to introduce tougher sentences by referring the issue to the Sentencing Council for new guidance.
Peter Gibson
The hon. Lady is being generous with her time. She calls for additional offences. Could she specify what offences are required over and above those already on the statute book that deal with the offence of administering a poison through either a drink or an injection?
Ellie Reeves
We seek tougher sentences that act as a deterrent. There are horrific stories of spiking both by injection and by a drink. The rise in spiking by injection is deeply concerning, but the very low level of prosecutions and the sentencing do not seem to reflect the scale of the problem. In our review, we would ask the Sentencing Council for new guidance on sentencing for these crimes.
Finally, some crimes are so abhorrent that Labour believes the offender should never come out of prison. Labour would ensure that any offender found guilty of the rape, abduction and murder of a stranger received a minimum custodial tariff of a whole life order, with the effect that they spend the rest of their life behind bars.
Toughening sentences alone will not fix the failures in the system that are letting women down. That is why Labour has outlined a much wider action plan. We would roll out a domestic violence register to prevent perpetrators from going town to town to find new victims. We would bring in specialist rape courts in every Crown court across the country to end the unacceptable court delays and to prevent victims from being retraumatised by the court process. We would introduce legal advocates for rape survivors to support them every step of the way, from reporting a rape at a police station right through to trial. That would drive up standards and prevent victims from pulling out of their cases because they feel the system is working against them. We would put Jade’s law on the statute book, suspending parental responsibility in cases where one parent murders another.
It can no longer be considered good enough for the Government to say that tackling violence against women and girls is a priority when their actions, I am afraid, sometimes say otherwise. Recent polling showed that seven in 10 women consider action to stop sexual harassment, rape and domestic abuse inadequate. Nine in 10 women said that imposing tougher sentences for these crimes would be an effective way of making the country safer for women and girls. We cannot afford for our laws and their enforcement to send a signal that violence against women and girls will be tolerated. That is why Labour in power will make sure that sentencing provides justice for victims, and with our wider action plan on violence against women and girls, we will finally make tackling this a priority.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Edward Argar)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson—let us see how far I get before the Division bell rings.
It is noteworthy that the tone of the debate has been extremely constructive and, in that context, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) for securing it. When there is other business in the main Chamber, there is always a risk regarding the quantity of Members present in this Chamber, but that has been made up for by the quality of the contributions from all Members.
Violence against women and girls is never acceptable. I note the dedication across the House to ensuring that women and girls feel safe in our communities and that offenders who commit these heinous crimes, which have such a devastating impact on the lives of victims and survivors, receive just sentences that reflect the nature of their abhorrent behaviour. Of course, I share that sentiment.
As happens perhaps more often than not, I agree with the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves), on a number of points, but I gently disagree and take issue with her suggestion of inaction from this Government. She knows the Government’s strong record since 2010 in passing legislation to tackle a range of offences relating to violence against women and girls and in investing in the systems at police, CPS and court level to ensure that this is about not just a criminal-law framework but making sure that the system is responsive.
In that context, I pay tribute to the shadow Minister and her party. Just as my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) highlighted, for example, the Children Act 1989, I will mention the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 2021, the first iteration of which I helped to draft and introduce in 2019 with my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins). We also have legislation tackling modern slavery and upskirting and strengthening sentences against stalking and harassment. However, I pay tribute to the Opposition, because when they were in government they, too, made great strides forward in tackling these offences—the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 springs to mind. It is important to recognise the cross-party work on these issues, and I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), because between 2010 and 2015 her party played its full part in that.
Tackling violence against women and girls is a priority for this Government and for the Prime Minister. I just paid tribute to the Opposition and, actually, it is important at this juncture to pay tribute to the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), for all the work that she did in this space both as Home Secretary and as Prime Minister. The Government are committed to addressing this complex issue from multiple angles, reflecting, as my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth set out, the breadth of offences that could be considered in the space of violence against women and girls, while seeking to keep victims at the heart of all that we do. We are taking an ambitious, holistic approach to the issue of violence against women and girls, seeking to prevent such crimes from occurring and to improve outcomes for victims when they do.
I must be clear, as Members would expect me to be, that sentencing decisions are rightly a matter for our independent judiciary in individual cases. The Government, however, have a role in ensuring that the sentencing framework is just, proportionate and fit for purpose. We regularly review and scrutinise the maximum penalties for criminal offences to ensure that the courts have sufficient powers and flexibility to address all types of criminal behaviour appropriately. Of course, we take account of the views of victims, stakeholders and the wider public to inform our decisions. As always, I am grateful to Members for setting out their perspectives in the debate, reflecting not only their parties’ positions but, I suspect, what they glean from regular contact with their constituents.
We have seen an increase in average custodial sentence lengths for a range of offences in this space. Since 2013— we often go from 2010—in the case of all sexual offences the average custodial sentence length has increased. The average length of a custodial sentence for the rape of a female aged 16 and over has increased. Average sentences for taking, possessing or distributing indecent images of children—that can shade into this space—have increased. For sexual activity with a family member under the age of 17 where the offender is over the age of 18, average sentences have increased, as they have in the case of voyeurism and the abuse of children through pornography and prostitution. So, over that period of time, we have seen an increase in the average sentences handed down by the courts for those crimes.
As I alluded to with my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth, violence against women and girls does not relate to any single criminal offence but encapsulates a wide range of behaviours from domestic and so-called honour-based abuse to sexual offences and murder. Many offences that are typically associated with violence against women and girls already carry high maximum penalties, as I have alluded to, including life imprisonment. For example, in the year ending June 2022, the average custodial sentence for adults convicted of rape was more than 10.5 years.
When deciding which sentence to impose, the courts take into account all the circumstances surrounding an offence, including any mitigating and aggravating factors. Provisions in the sentencing code must also be taken into account, as well as sentencing guidance issued by the independent Sentencing Council. In 2018, the council introduced an overarching guideline on domestic abuse that ensures that when any offence is committed in the context of domestic abuse, the court must consider that when sentencing, which can lead to tougher sentences.
The shadow Minister was right to highlight the apparent disparities in sentencing between murders—often with a knife—in a domestic context versus a street or other context. I suspect that the increase in the tariff for those who bring a knife to the scene was designed to tackle street knife violence and knife crimes, but its impact has been apparent disparities in sentencing for homicide, which is essentially an equivalent crime. I will turn to that in a moment.
Jim Shannon
I thank the Minister for what he is saying. In my contribution, I gave the example of a lady who, after multiple beatings and abuse, may reach for a knife to protect herself. The sentence for that lady doing something to protect herself would be higher than what the perpetrator would get for attacking her. Will the Government look at that?
Edward Argar
One should always be cautious about generalising a particular crime from particular circumstances. When there is a particular set of circumstances, as the hon. Gentleman set out, a judge will be able to consider the context—the aggravating factors and mitigating factors—in determining appropriate sentencing. I am therefore a little cautious about drawing a general point from the scenario he sets out, because judges do have at their disposal the ability to recognise context as either a mitigating factor or an aggravating factor. I have faith in our independent judiciary to consider that when sentencing.
Of course, all that is not to say that the law should not be reviewed and updated. To that end, the Government have commissioned a review of the sentencing of domestic homicides to ensure that the law deals properly with such cases. That review, as the shadow Minister highlighted, was undertaken independently by Clare Wade KC. I am currently considering the recommendations made in that context. She rightly said that they were delivered a little late, but there were understandable reasons for that and we are now taking our time to consider them.
The shadow Minister was both kind in her comments and asked for reassurance that I would consider them expeditiously. I think I have summarised her position correctly, and I will certainly do that. I am keen that we bring forward the review and our response as swiftly as possible. It is an important and complex area of law, and I want to ensure that we give due care to considering all the implications of any proposed changes, or, indeed, what is in the review, before we bring forward a response.
I am sure Members will agree that victims must be confident that dangerous and serious offenders will serve an appropriate period of time in prison. That is why the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which came into force last April, ensures that those convicted of some of the most serious sexual and violent crimes, such as rape, manslaughter and attempted murder, spend a longer proportion of their sentence in prison. This better protects the public and gives victims the confidence that justice is being served. If an offender is given a discretionary life sentence, they will serve longer in prison before becoming eligible to be considered for release by the Parole Board. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth made the point about the shift to two thirds of that sentence rather than a half, which she was right to highlight.
I must reiterate that the landscape of violence against women and girls is varied and complex. It is not sufficient merely to seek a solution through increased sentences alone—I do not think any Member who has spoken today would suggest that was the only solution—which is why the Government have already taken target measures to prevent and address these appalling behaviours and support women and girls who are victims of such crimes. That is absolutely vital. The hon. Member for Bath said we need to look at this with a whole-system approach. It is not just about sentences: it is about police, victim support services, the CPS, the court process, and then, upon conviction, sentences and protecting the public.
Last year, the Home Office published the cross-Government tackling violence against women and girls strategy, and a complementary tackling domestic abuse plan. The strategy and plan aim to transform society’s response to prevent offences, support victims and better pursue perpetrators, as well as strengthen the systems and processes in place that are needed to deliver those goals.
As part of the implementation of the strategy, the Government allocated £125 million to communities across England and Wales through the safer streets fund, and invested another £5 million in the safety of women at night fund. That funding has supported the delivery of a range of initiatives that seek to improve the safety of women in public spaces, including preventive policing to identify vulnerable individuals and potential perpetrators, safe-space initiatives, taxi-marshal schemes to help to ensure that women travel home safely, and education awareness programmes in night-time economy venues and higher education establishments. I will come to that in a moment.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth alluded to, Cornwall Council has been awarded £664,802 through the fourth round of the safer streets fund, to support the delivery of a range of interventions that aim to tackle violence against women and girls and antisocial behaviour. I pay tribute to her local council, her local police and crime commissioner, Alison Hernandez, and her new chief constable, Will Kerr—who was sworn in last December—for the work they are doing on specialisation in tackling violence against women and girls.
My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington touched on the work being done by the safer streets fund in his constituency, and its success. If appropriate, I might have the opportunity to visit and meet him and the team at the hub at Number Forty to talk about their work locally.
Peter Gibson
The Minister is always welcome in Darlington. As it is the birthplace of the railways, all rails lead there.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and may well take him up on that. I hope to be able to visit him in Darlington. I pay tribute to him for his work on Sian’s law, and his dedication and determination. We all know what a challenge it is in this place to see a private Member’s Bill to fruition. I pay tribute to him for what that law will do to improve people’s lives and safety. His constituents should be proud of him for what he has achieved with it.
Interventions being funded include the delivery of training for night-time economy venues, including Stamp Out Spiking workshops, bystander training and awareness-raising initiatives for students. In that context, it is an appropriate moment to briefly touch on spiking, which was raised by a number of Members. This is where my memory may fail me, but it is my understanding is that it is covered under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, in the context of administering a poison. That Act carries with it a maximum period of imprisonment of five years for that offence.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington alluded to, the challenge is catching the perpetrator, given the context of how such offences are often committed. There is the challenge of proving it and also, I suspect, an element of awareness-raising needed about the nature of the offence, so that there are more reports, enabling the police and others to better intervene.
Cherilyn Mackrory
The Minister is right that gathering evidence is absolutely key to getting a conviction for spiking. That is why, as part of—I think—the safer streets fund, kits are now available for night-time economy workers so that if somebody reports that they have been spiked, the testing can be done there and then, which will often help to lead to a conviction.
Edward Argar
My hon. Friend is right to highlight, for want of a better way of putting it, the innovation and thought going into finding ways to tackle what is a complex offence.
We have invested more than £230 million in implementing the domestic abuse plan, including more than £140 million spent on supporting victims and more than £81 million on tackling perpetrators. We have doubled funding for survivors of sexual violence and for the national domestic abuse helpline this financial year, and further increased funding for all the national helplines that it supports. In 2021-22, more than 81,000 people received support from Home Office-funded VAWG helplines.
As I have alluded to, we passed the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, which introduced a range of measures, including —[Interruption.]
Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)
Order. There is a Division, so I have to suspend the sitting.
Edward Argar
The Domestic Abuse Act 2021 introduced a range of measures, including a new wider statutory definition of domestic abuse, which recognises all forms of abuse beyond physical violence. It also created a new criminal offence of non-fatal strangulation, extended the offence of sharing private sexual photographs and films with the intent to cause distress—so-called revenge porn—and extended the offence of controlling or coercive behaviour to cover post separation. The majority of those measures are already in force.
Some hon. Members have alluded to the Online Safety Bill, which is currently passing through Parliament. There are some challenges with the scope of that Bill; parts of the Law Commission’s report into these offences will not fall within scope, which limits what can be done in this context. However my starting point, notwithstanding the complexity of the Law Commission’s report, is that where we can, where it is within scope and where it is possible—I think the DCMS Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), said this on Report—we should implement at least some of its recommendations in a way that does not inadvertently have negative impacts. It is a complex package, and large parts need to be taken as a whole, but where we can take individual measures and use this legislative vehicle—we all know the challenges of finding a legislative vehicle for a whole package—I am keen that we do that so that we make at least some progress even if it is not 100%.
In the rape review action plan, published in 2021, the Government looked at how the entire criminal justice system responds to rape. We recognised that in too many instances, it simply has not been good enough. I take a particular interest in the rape review action plan, not just because it is a key part of my ministerial portfolio but because when I last covered this portfolio in 2018-19—I was Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle was at the Home Office and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland) was Solicitor General—at the direction of the then Prime Minister, we looked at commissioning exactly that. I pay tribute to Emily Hunt for her work on that.
Our ambition was to more than double the number of adult rape cases being referred, charged and reaching court by the end of this Parliament, and we are making steady progress on our ambitions set out in the rape review action plan. The latest data show that the number of cases referred, charged and reaching courts has increased. In April to June 2022, there were 901 adult rape police referrals—more than double the 2019 quarterly average—and suspects charged by the CPS were up by two thirds on the 2019 quarterly average. In July to September 2022—a slightly different period of time—there were 467 adult rape Crown court receipts which, again, is more than double the 2019 quarterly average.
I will touch on two aspects of the comments of the hon. Member for Bath. I will pick up her points about Operation Soteria and Avon and Somerset police in a moment, because I had the privilege of visiting them recently. I would just be a little cautious. She referred to how we guarantee more convictions. The only reason I am a bit cautious is that we cannot guarantee convictions. We can guarantee charges, and I think that is what she meant—bringing more cases to court. I do not think it is the case that the CPS will pursue a case only when there is a guaranteed conviction, because it cannot guarantee that in any case. However, it has to meet the two tests for Crown prosecutors—the evidential test and the public interest test—in order to bring a prosecution. Due to the nature of these offences, those tests can be challenging.
Wera Hobhouse
I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that. I am glad that he corrected the record, because I was obviously going a bit free range. It is absolutely true that these institutions are independent. We cannot guarantee anything, but it is about increasing conviction numbers, and that is what we are here to talk about.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I suspected I knew what she meant, but I wanted to be clear for the record. To ensure that victims are adequately supported, the Ministry of Justice is also quadrupling the funding for victim and witness support services, which includes funding to increase the number of independent sexual violence advisers, ISVAs, and independent domestic violence advisers, IDVAs, by 300, to more than 1,000 by 2024-25.
Edward Argar
I will just finish my point and then, of course, I will give way. In that context, we are recommissioning the rape and sexual abuse support fund to March 2025. In December 2022, we launched a new 24/7 support line for victims of rape and sexual abuse, meaning every victim now has the option of accessing free, confidential support, wherever and whenever they need it.
Jim Shannon
I welcome the Minister’s commitment to extra support officers; I think he referred to about 1,000. Whenever there are delays in rape cases, for those people traumatised by the physical action against them and who may be fearful, I want to seek assurance that, when it comes to those extra staff, direct contact is made with those with a case pending, to ensure that physically and verbally—the two aspects met in relation to their cases—they do not feel let down by the service due to the delays. That is where I am seeking help.
Edward Argar
The hon. Gentleman almost reads my mind. I was about to turn to a number of key elements that I believe have to form part of the response. Legislation forms a part, but it is very easy to say, “We must change the law.” This is not just about altering law; it is about a whole system response. A key element, as the hon. Gentleman highlights, is the support available in a timely manner, to ensure people get the physical and emotional support they need, and the support through the criminal justice process, to understand what is happening and their rights, and to know they have someone they can trust who is there to talk to. He is absolutely right to highlight that.
Alongside the law and the support that needs to be in place, we need to look at how the different parts of the system work together, particularly the CPS and the police, as the hon. Member for Bath mentioned. She touched on Operation Soteria, which seeks to do that with the police and the CPS. I had the privilege of meeting the hon. Lady’s force recently. I was in Avon and Somerset and met the fantastic Chief Constable Sarah Crew, to hear about its stats.
Avon and Somerset was the first of the forces to embark on the Operation Soteria programme. There are now 19 forces at different stages. It is an academic deep dive designed to look at how to better improve outcomes at each stage of the system and to create a national operating model that other forces can adopt. Among the pillars of that work is close partnership working between the police and the CPS, so that both elements of that system understand what the other is doing, and what is required to have the best chance of a successful charge and court case, while understanding the impact on the victim and trying to minimise the intrusion.
In that context, I looked at the work being done around forensics and how to move to that target of 24-hour turnaround for a victim’s phone when data is needed from it, and to ensure that what is taken is proportionate and is done, as it has to be, with the victim’s consent and full understanding. It is up to them and they are in control of that process. The hon. Lady also touched on the importance of data in understanding the analytics and what forces can do in that space.
Crucially, the programme looks at the importance of specialist officers investigating the crime, and supporting them emotionally with the work they do, which is incredibly stressful. Lastly, the key element the hon. Lady touched on is the focus on the perpetrator’s behaviour, rather than what has often been seen by victims in the past as an over-focus on their behaviour. Operation Soteria has huge potential in this space, but as hon. Members know, it is not the only element. It is a part of the solution, but no one thing alone will solve this problem.
Finally, several hon. Members touched on education, and attitudinal and cultural change. We have seen similar debates in this House in the context of the police in the light of the Carrick case, but more broadly it is about educating men and boys, and changing attitudes. This is perhaps more in the context of the Online Safety Bill, but yesterday I watched the incredibly powerful documentary “Asking for It?” by Emily Atack, in which she talks about her experiences. Of course, no woman is asking for it, but she bravely talks about the online abuse that she receives and the attitudes that it demonstrates. I pay tribute to her for her powerful and moving documentary, which shone a light on exactly what my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth has been talking about: the need for an attitudinal shift among not just men and boys, but society as a whole.
To conclude, in May last year we published our landmark draft Victims Bill, alongside a wider package of measures to improve victims’ experiences in the criminal justice system. The Bill signals what victims can and should expect from that system by enshrining the overarching principles of the victims code in primary legislation. We carefully considered the Justice Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report and responded to it on 19 January, agreeing with a number of its recommendations to further strengthen the Bill. I look forward to the Bill being brought before the House for debate, and hopefully passage, as soon as parliamentary time allows.
I hope I have reassured my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth that the Government recognise and share her view about the importance of this issue. We are carrying forward our ambitious plans to tackle violence against women and girls. I have heard the points that have been raised and I will reflect upon them carefully. I look forward to updating the House in due course; I suspect we will have further debates.
Cherilyn Mackrory
I thank all colleagues for their detailed and thoughtful contributions to what is an important debate for many people around the country. Some people perhaps suffer in silence without coming forward. I want them to feel empowered to come forward, because the agencies and the people who are supposed to be looking after them are there, and the processes are in place if they need to get a conviction in their case. It is important to send out the message loud and clear from this place that the Government are taking action, and the police, Crown Prosecution Service and the courts are working as quickly and effectively as they can to ensure that justice is done in all these cases.
It was difficult for me to write a speech without mentioning specific cases, but I purposefully wanted to do that. I know that all MPs present will have heard cases in their own constituencies because that is how prevalent violence against women and girls is in our country. If we speak with one voice in this place, we will do the most important thing, which was the Minister’s final point. We will change society’s attitude towards violence against women and girls from childhood onwards, so for future generations it will no longer be the scourge that it still is today. I know that we can do that on a cross-party and collaborative basis. I thank the Minister and I look forward to hearing from him on future developments.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered sentencing for violence against women and girls.
EU Funding: Northern Ireland
(1 year, 4 months ago)
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Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)
In a moment, I will call Claire Hanna to move the motion. As is the convention for 30-minute debates, there will not be an opportunity for the hon. Lady to wind up at the end.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered replacement of funding from EU programmes in Northern Ireland.
I am grateful to have the opportunity to discuss this issue and, I hope, get clarity for a number of third sector partners and other groups in Northern Ireland and, potentially, areas of opportunity for them. It feels like a very long time ago, but during the EU referendum campaign there were assurances that Northern Ireland would not lose out, doing well, as we did, out of the EU funds, which were based on need. We know that the phrase “take back control” resonated with many people, but it appears to mean taking back control from some of the funds that have traditionally underpinned progress in Northern Ireland and from local decision makers, and handing it directly to London, without any sense of a strategy that local groups can try to support.
In March last year, in the early stages of the community renewal fund, I had a Westminster Hall debate, in which various eyebrow-raising allocations from that scheme were addressed. I am afraid that several of the reservations that people had about process, strategy, co-ordination and transparency have been borne out. It is worth saying that these concerns are not held just by groups that are applying for funding or by my party. The Northern Ireland Executive, as was, adopted the position that the best delivery mechanism for the shared prosperity fund would be via existing structures. Invest Northern Ireland, our economy arm, was very clear that it believed that the funding would be best delivered in conjunction with the programme for government. And the think-tank Pivotal and other respected commentators and business voices made the same point. People are up for change. They understand that it is a reality, and they roll with the punches. But it has to feel transparent, and there has to be a sense of fairness and coherence and that there is more to these allocations than just the whim of Ministers in London.
As I said, Northern Ireland was a net beneficiary in the EU. That is not a secret and is not anything to be ashamed of. Those allocations were made on the basis of need and, in many cases, were a counterweight to the obvious challenges that Northern Ireland faced and to decades of capital underinvestment. That is not just a historical issue: in 2021, the average capital spend per head in Northern Ireland was £1,325, compared with a UK average of £1,407. Of course, all that has contributed to a failure to attract quality investment and foreign direct investment, and decent jobs. That is reflected in our rates of economically inactive people, which are substantially higher than those in other regions.
The founder of our party, John Hume, said many times that the best peace process is a job: the best way to enable people to have hope in their futures and see beyond the things that have divided us in our region is to have meaningful employment—a reason to stay, to get up in the morning and to work together. Those were the opportunities that we saw in European participation, and that is why we continue to work so hard to protect our access to political and economic structures. Funds beyond the block grant, the EU funding as was and the promised successor funds, have been billed and are needed as additional, and they should be an opportunity to realise some of those ambitions, to remove barriers to employment and, in particular at the moment, to allow people to take advantage of the opportunities that the current very tight labour market offers. Unfortunately, that is not what we are getting.
Time is obviously short, so I want to focus on the loss of the European social fund and the European regional development fund and on the replacement, the SPF, and to touch on the levelling-up fund. It is worth clarifying that, as well as those assurances back in 2016, during the referendum campaign, the Conservative party manifesto in 2019 committed to replacing the ESF in its entirety. Northern Ireland got an average of £65 million a year from the ESF and ERDF in the period from 2014 to 2020, with Northern Ireland Departments having the power to manage that in line with UK strategy. That allowed them to align projects that they funded with regional and local strategies, ensuring complementarity and targeted outcomes.
The scenario now is that the UK Government and Northern Ireland Departments are essentially two players on the same pitch, in the same space, delivering the same sorts of projects. That has a built-in inefficiency and means that the results are less than the sum of the parts. That overlapping inevitably applies to monitoring, too. How are we supposed to measure the impact of different interventions in areas like skills if the scheme is only one part of an equation in which all the other Departments are trying to do similar things? It seems that it will be impossible to disaggregate that. The governance is sub-par and the quantum is less, too.
By comparison with the ESF and the ERDF averages, the allocation for the shared prosperity fund in Northern Ireland is £127 million over three years, so we are losing on average £23 million per year from that scheme. That has created this massive gap for funded groups, many of whom just cannot hold on. It is not like in the civil service; people have to be put on protected notice or face closure. Again, there is nothing co-ordinated about any of this. It is not even the survival of the fittest—that the strongest and best organisations will continue—because it is largely the luck of the draw on where organisations are in their funding cycle. Again, this is one more downside of the abandonment of devolution. Engaged and responsive local Ministers could monitor the situation and be flexible and creative with in-year allocation, match funding and bridge funding. They could, in short, protect us from the deficit created by Brexit and this devolution override.
I want to touch on how all this affects specific groups. The NOW Group is a highly regarded project that works across Belfast and further afield, supporting people who are economically inactive because of a disability get into employment. It has 17 years of ESF funding and runs high-profile facilities. If anyone has been in the café in Belfast City Hall, they will have seen NOW Group workers. They help hundreds of people with disabilities into all sorts of sectors, including leading corporates and the knowledge sector. It is a safe bet that any credible funder will keep backing a project like this, but the assurances are just not there. Reserves cannot last forever and, of course, smaller organisations will not have such reserves. In that project, 52 people are at risk of being put on notice and another 800 people with disabilities will be left with no service.
Mencap in south Belfast and far beyond has run ESF projects on social inclusion for decades and was well on track to exceed the target set by ESF of supporting 13,000 people by 2023. It is concerned by how limited the scope of SPF is compared to what they were able to do under ESF. The East Belfast Mission described well what is at stake:
“Our programmes have a long track record of being more successful than government initiatives”.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Lady for bringing the debate forward. I work with the East Belfast Mission regularly in my office, so I understand its work and its success rate from the people it helps in my constituency. The mission tells me, as I told the hon. Lady, that without this funding stream it will not be able to continue to have the success stories it has and that that will hurt individuals and families. Like the hon. Lady, I look to the Minister for some assurance that the funding it has received over the past few years can be continued. With that, we can help more of our people over the long term.
Claire Hanna
The mission itself captured that. It talks about its staff being based in local communities with lived experience that helps them understand the specific difficulties people face. It says:
“Many of the people we work with have faced societal and generational barriers to employment, through illness, trauma or other issues. Our projects help break the cycle and raise up our host communities.”
It says that if it loses the fund, it will not be able to provide certainty and will
“lose irreplaceable experience which has been built up over decades.”
This is not just a Belfast issue by any stretch of the imagination. Dozens of projects across Northern Ireland, particularly those supporting younger people, women and minorities, are at risk. First Steps Women’s Centre is a vital part of the community sector in Mid Ulster, working to integrate new and minority ethnic communities, providing crèche facilities to support women back into work and signposting people to other partners who can help them with the multitude of issues they may face.
I want to specifically ask the Minister how the Department ensures that the projects it is funding are aligned with Northern Ireland’s democratically agreed priorities—agreed by the Executive with all five parties—absent a formal role for those Departments. How do the Government propose that groups, such as those I have described, that are facing this essentially bureaucratic gap are supposed to address it? If the gap is not going to be addressed, what are the people who use those services supposed to do instead?
I want to address the widespread concerns about the levelling-up fund. It is a mighty slogan—who does not want to see things levelled up?—but unfortunately, like a lot of slogans of the last few years, it struggles a bit when it comes into contact with implementation. People perceive it as pitting communities against one another, with distant Ministers picking winners seemingly at random. Again, the initiative started badly for us. The initial allocations fell short of the promised 3% of the UK pot. That target was laid out in the strategy document, which seemed to acknowledge the traditional capital shortfall in Northern Ireland but has failed to address it. The fund was initially conceived as a scheme for England with a Barnett consequential, but it has evolved to be more centralised than was promised.
The same paper highlighted the issues that there would be given the fact that local governance structures in Northern Ireland are different from those in Britain, but it has failed to develop a more collaborative approach to mitigate those issues. The same overlap and duplication issues with the SPF pertain here, despite requests from me and others to consider the north-south dimension and co-ordination on this issue. That misses real opportunity to maximise value by co-ordinating with the Irish Government, who have, for example, a £400 million capital fund in the Shared Island unit.
Lessons from the first round of levelling up, which were very well telegraphed, do not appear to have been taken on board for round two. Although the projects that got the nod last week are no doubt good news for the relevant communities, nobody has any clue about what the winning ingredients in those bids were, or how others might have similar success in future applications. We are advised that the Northern Ireland bids were assessed against three of the four criteria set out in the prospectus, namely strategic fit to the economic case and deliverability.
The winning bids are in the public domain, but the other applicants are not. In the interests of transparency, reassurance and learning for future schemes, will the Minister therefore share details of the original Northern Ireland shortlist of projects and their ranking, as presented after the assessors’ moderation meeting? Will she also advise what, if any, additional considerations informed the Minister’s decision? Can she clarify whether the funding decisions were taken by the Minister alone? It has been suggested by some applicants—I have struggled to confirm this—that the gateway pass mark that was used in England, Scotland and Wales was 75%, and that that was dropped, after applications were submitted, to 57%. I hope that the Minister can confirm whether that is the case.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. In my constituency of Strangford, an application was put in for the Whitespots park, an environmental scheme at Conlig. It is shovel ready—the boys could start it tomorrow —but we have missed out on two occasions. She is expressing her concerns over what is happening in her constituency; I echo those and support her in what she says.
Claire Hanna
That again illustrates the confusion that people have about what was selected. Will the Minister confirm whether any criteria additional to those specified were applied? Were they applied consistently to all projects? Will the transparent list that she will publish include any changes in ranking that occurred as a result of new criteria?
Again—for future learning—it was announced that there will be a round three of levelling-up funding. An enormous amount of work goes into the applications, including, as people will know, many thousands of pounds on proposals and engaging the strategy board. Will the Department therefore develop a reserve list from round two applications? That could prevent some groups from having to run up the same professional fees and pouring in the same time, particularly when they are being left in the dark about the criteria. Further, can the Minister clarify what consultation was held with the Northern Ireland Departments and other funding bodies to address the overlap in applications under levelling up and other schemes? Finally, does the Minister think that the spread of applications in Northern Ireland is appropriate?
A lot of these issues are very technical, but they are vital to achieving the things that we all want to achieve for Northern Ireland and for progress. They are also vital to people having some faith in this progress—that they have not had their eye wiped, essentially, by funds being promised, removed and not adequately replaced. That is not the case at the moment. People see this as a net loss from what we enjoyed before Brexit, and that should concern the Department.
Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)
We have until four minutes past 5, but it is not essential to take up all the time.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Robertson. I sincerely thank the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) for securing this important debate, and for the constructive way in which she has engaged with the Department and I on the UK shared prosperity fund. I know that she is and has long been a committed champion for the many voluntary groups, businesses and communities in her constituency that have previously benefited from, if not relied heavily on, EU funding. She has been a keen advocate to ensure that that support continues under the UK shared prosperity fund.
The hon. Member mentioned the NOW Group, and I am pleased that she did. As she knows, the NOW Group has been in receipt of ESF funding, and has also recently accessed the community renewal fund as well. We have worked with Maeve Monaghan, the CEO of the NOW Group, to help to design the UK shared prosperity fund planning as part of that partnership group. Hopefully her feedback there has definitely been helpful, and she feels that it has been taken on board as we have designed the programme.
In my response, I hope I will be able to provide some clarity on the next steps regarding the roll-out of the UKSPF in Northern Ireland; the steps we have taken so far to engage charities and community groups currently in receipt of Government support; and the progress we are making in our ambition to level up communities in Northern Ireland and, indeed, across the whole of the United Kingdom. I will make reference to the levelling-up fund and address as many of the questions she raised as I can. I am not sure my hand was working fast enough to write them all down, but if I have missed any I will follow up in writing following the debate.
As hon. Members will know, we published the prospectus for the UK shared prosperity fund back in April last year. It sets out how the fund and its £2.6 billion of funding will work on the ground. Effectively, it will replace the European regional development fund and the European social fund with a simpler, smoother and less bureaucratic approach to supporting communities right across the UK. We all know that bureaucracy is something that community groups have raised with us, so as a Government we have very much taken that on board.
In that sense, it is fair to say that the UKSPF is a central pillar of the Government’s levelling-up agenda and our ambition to bring transformative investment to places that have gone overlooked by successive Administrations for too long. We want to use the funding to support people in skills, helping the unemployed move into high-skilled, high-wage jobs—I know that is something specifically mentioned by the hon. Member for Belfast South in her speech. We also want to use the funding to help the growth of local business and invest in communities and places to help to build pride in place. We know that having pride in the place that someone lives and has grown up in is a crucial part of the wider levelling-up agenda.
For Northern Ireland, that means £126.8 million of new funding for local investment and local priorities up to March 2025. Crucially, that fulfils the promise we made that the UKSPF would match the funding allocated to Northern Ireland through EU structural funds.
I know we have set out how the approach will work in some detail already, both in the prospectus and previous spending rounds, but I will quickly recap it for everyone here. The UK shared prosperity fund is set to ramp up over the coming years, so that total domestic UK-wide funding of the ERDF, ESF and UKSPF will at least match receipts from EU structural funds. It will reach £1.5 billion per year across the UK in 2024-25, when Northern Ireland will receive £74 million. It is important to note that before that date, when ERDF and ESF funding is still being delivered—albeit in smaller amounts—the UK shared prosperity fund tapers in for Northern Ireland and in England, Scotland and Wales too.
I need to put on the record that the Government fully recognise the need for the funding to be properly tailored to the projects and organisations that add real economic and social value in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Belfast South mentioned some of the projects in her own constituency, and I am also grateful to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for talking about how one of those organisations, the NOW Group, has helped his own constituents. We all know that a good, local charitable organisation can do wonders for our communities, and that is specifically why we are so keen to support them through this funding.
To ensure that we tailored the funding appropriately, we ran a comprehensive programme of workshops and engagement with Northern Ireland partners last year. That included businesses, voluntary and community groups and councils, so that we could collect the widest possible views on the priorities for the fund and how it could best work in concert with other opportunities in Northern Ireland. We also established a partnership group comprised of all the organisations I just mentioned, along with the higher education sector and the Northern Ireland Office, to advise us on how the fund could be best utilised. We have built further on that engagement since then.
Throughout the process, we have offered the Northern Ireland Departments the opportunity to formally participate in shaping the fund, but, sadly, that has not proven possible.
Claire Hanna
Does the Minister know why that has not proven possible? It is because under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which is essentially the constitution of Northern Ireland, the Department is not equality-screened—unlike the Northern Ireland Office and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. It is not able to legally operate and to run equality impact assessments, which are the law in Northern Ireland. That problem was telegraphed, but the Department has not taken adequate steps to address it. That is why those Departments have not been able to be involved.
Dehenna Davison
I will follow up in writing on that point. Having spoken to Sue Gray, one of our super officials, who has been outstanding in her engagement, I know how closely officials have been working with the Northern Ireland Finance, Economy and Communities Departments, maintaining regular contact as our plan has developed. That engagement continues.
Where have we got to? Drawing on insights from the partnership group, and from wider engagement, we published an investment plan just before Christmas last year. That sets out how Northern Ireland’s allocation will be spent and the impact we expect it to have. It supports the leading needs and opportunities in Northern Ireland, addressing high levels of economic inactivity, promoting entrepreneurship and innovation and strengthening pride in place. I am pleased to say that the plan has been given the seal of approval by our partners on the ground and is now being implemented.
Our first competition, for £42 million, which is roughly a third of the total UK SPF allocation, is focused on helping more economically inactive people into work. Many MPs, Assembly Members and other stakeholders have rightly made the case for prioritising this funding and the voluntary and community organisations that deliver it. I am sure the hon. Member for Belfast South welcomes this provision and the benefits it will bring not just to the organisations that receive it and the individuals they will help, but to Northern Ireland’s wider economy.
We are also working with councils in Northern Ireland to bring forward early communities and place projects, as well as a joined-up service for entrepreneurs seeking to start a business and create jobs. Pending further discussion with the Northern Ireland civil service, we may also commission Northern Ireland Executive Departments, or their arm’s length bodies, in the design and delivery of the fund. I am sure hon. Members will join me in encouraging their fullest involvement.
Part of this work is about ensuring that we mitigate issues for organisations as the European programmes we have discussed draw to a close. That issue has been raised with me by organisations not just in Northern Ireland but all around the UK; it is something that our Department and Ministers in other Departments have been incredibly focused on. With that in mind, we have been able to reprofile the SPF by moving funding from 2022-23 to 2023-24, so that it betters reflects funding needs. I know that this is an issue that my predecessors were asked to consider by many partners in Northern Ireland, and I am pleased we have been able make real progress in this area. It demonstrates something crucial, which is that SPF is not a fixed fund; it can and should flex to meet the evolving needs of the people of Northern Ireland—and it has been designed to do so.
It goes without saying that we will continue to engage with partners, including the Northern Ireland Departments and hon. Members on both sides of this House, on the design and operation of the fund, so that it delivers for businesses and communities in Northern Ireland and throughout the Union.
If we take a step back from the UK SPF to talk about other funding, which the hon. Member for Belfast South did with regards to the levelling-up fund, Members will know that Northern Ireland Departments have always provided funding alongside the European regional development fund and the European social fund. While we recognise the challenging budget circumstances Northern Ireland faces, the funding provided by UK SPF is only ever part of the answer. It is right that the Northern Ireland Departments continue to invest in provision that they have previously supported; that is something I think all of us would encourage.
The Government also want to play their part, making sure we are contributing towards building a brighter Northern Ireland. That is why, alongside the UK shared prosperity fund, we have used a wide range of other funds to spur growth, regeneration and investment. Those include: the community renewal fund, which backs 30 locally led, innovative projects to the value of £12 million, and the community ownership fund, which has so far supported six local communities in Northern Ireland to take ownership of assets at risk of loss, with a spend of £1.3 million. There are other important schemes and investments, such as £617 million for city and growth deals covering every part of Northern Ireland, and our new deal for Northern Ireland providing £400 million to help boost economic growth, invest in infrastructure and increase competitiveness. We are also investing £730 million into the Peace Plus programme, ensuring a total budget of almost £1 billion—the biggest peace programme to date. Through that package of investment, we will achieve significant, visible and tangible improvements to the places where people work and live.
Jim Shannon
The Minister mentioned £400 million. I do not expect an answer today—it might not be possible—but how much of the new deal money has been used or set aside?
Dehenna Davison
I do not have an answer to hand, but I will commit to follow that up and provide that information.
I will touch on the levelling-up fund, because we do not have much time left. Questions were raised about the shortlist, rankings and considerations. Much of the information around the considerations has been set out in the technical note that has been published. That will provide some information, and I am happy to provide a link.
The hon. Member for Belfast South asked about consistent application. Ministers were keen to ensure there was consistent application of the decision-making framework to ensure that they were not cherry-picking the winners. It was designed to reflect the scores and value of the projects that were selected. She also asked whether the decision was made by me alone, as a Minister. She knows that the fund is a joint fund across multiple Departments, ergo that was not the case. Various Departments are involved in the decision-making process.
The hon. Lady asked about round 3 of the levelling-up fund. We have indeed committed to a round 3, but I am not yet able to provide more details about that fund, because the conversations are ongoing and decisions are yet to be made. However, as soon as we have made the decisions and announced how round 3 will work, I will share that information with her.
I want to conclude by saying a huge thank you to the hon. Lady for securing this important debate. I hope this is the start of more constructive engagement between us as we both fight for what is best for the people of Northern Ireland.
Claire Hanna
I have been kept right on the Standing Orders, but I thought I would get back in. I appreciate the Minister’s approach and her enthusiasm. As I said, I do not doubt that the projects and other things that are being funded are laudable, but they are not additional to what we had. They are less than what we had, which was less again than what we needed. They are not equality-screened in Northern Ireland’s traditional way, so people do not have confidence in that regard. Ultimately, the fundamental question is: who decides, and on what basis? Frankly, I am none the wiser after this discussion, and that is what is concerning people.
Even if the shortlisting is not published, we all know the 10 projects that got the results. However, there are concerns that the published criteria were not applied in a very direct way overall, as the Minister will be aware. I know these things are not always straightforward, but the metrics are clear—they are in the public domain. I am sure most Members have poked around in the Bloomberg data about different constituencies and how they are performing relative to 2019 and relative to one another, and that will show that, in most cases, Northern Ireland constituencies continue to fall behind, including those that did not receive any levelling-up funding, while constituencies that were ahead are staying ahead. I am none the wiser, and I hope we can have a follow-up meeting, but it is not just a case of me being satisfied about transparency; it is also about those who have applied and invested hours and thousands of pounds in producing good applications. We are no more confident that detached Ministers’ have not decided.
Dehenna Davison
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. I should have said that, as part of my package on the levelling-up fund, full written feedback will be provided to all applicants, which I hope will provide some guidance on where bids perhaps fell short. There is also the option of follow-up meetings with officials from my Department to go through that in more detail, which I hope will satisfy some of the concerns around the scoring.
I will quickly wrap up now. Again, I thank the hon. Lady for her commitment to helping to improve the prosperity of not only her constituents but the whole of Northern Ireland. As the Minister for Levelling Up, I am committed to that. If all parts of the UK are not firing on all cylinders, the UK as a whole is suffering. Ultimately, we need to make sure that every region and every community is levelled up and can benefit from the maximum opportunities and value of that community for the sake of our entire nation.
Question put and agreed to.
Artificial Intelligence: Intellectual Property Rights
(1 year, 4 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
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Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)
The debate can technically run until 6.04 pm.
Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the potential impact of artificial intelligence on intellectual property rights for creative workers.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I am delighted to have secured a debate on such an important and dynamic topic.
The rapid rise of artificial intelligence seemingly knows no bounds. Each week, a new AI tool is launched that drives further change across business, science, the arts and everyday life. When I applied for the debate, no one had heard of ChatGPT, but now it is writing speeches for the Chancellor. AI can undoubtedly bring significant advancements across a variety of fields, from aiding medical diagnoses to predicting environmental disasters. AI is transformative. It goes further and faster than humanly possible. Quite rightly, it has been identified as one of the UK’s key growth industries, and it is vital that Government policy supports digital innovation to position the UK as a world leader in this field.
But just as AI brings many benefits, it also carries significant risk. AI is rapidly permeating the creative sector, creating visual art, prose, music and film at a pace and cost that humans are unable to match. For creatives, the risk of AI-generated material flooding the market gives rise to significant regulatory and ethical challenges, but these can be overcome, or at least mitigated, with well thought out and considered policy that balances the legitimate concerns of creatives with the need to foster digital innovation. I am therefore pleased to bring this debate to Parliament to discuss those challenges on the record and to give a voice to the millions of creative workers across the UK whose careers will be impacted by AI.
We have all seen how quickly AI can redefine industry norms. We must start exploring how we balance our digital and creative future. What is the outlook for our musicians, journalists, visual artists, publishers and performers in an increasingly computer-powered world? With the help of the Chamber Engagement Team, I conducted a survey of over 200 creative workers to hear how AI was impacting their work. Many said that their work, which they own the copyright for, had been used without their consent by AI companies. One respondent, Richard, noted that, in recent weeks, almost 600 of his copyrighted images had been scraped off the internet to train AI platforms, for which he has not received a single penny. Another survey respondent, Henry, said:
“Why should an AI company be able to blatantly copy and capture the ‘essence’ of how I compose music and monetise it, for free?”
This bypassing of copyright has resulted in creatives feeling that AI is undermining their skills and devaluing the creative process, as well as having a detrimental impact on their income.
The respondents to my survey are not alone. A significant volume of active legal battles regarding AI and intellectual property is currently going through the courts. Intellectual property rights and copyright laws are fundamental to the success of the UK’s world-leading creative industries. They not only protect the integrity of original work, but provide a revenue stream to ensure that creatives can make a living from their work. Copyright therefore has both an economic and a moral importance for creatives. But rather than looking to ensure current protections are upheld and enforced, last June, the Intellectual Property Office published proposals for an all-out exception to copyright for text and data mining in order to promote AI, with no opt-out for rights holders.
Under these proposals, companies across the world would be able to use UK creatives’ material to produce clean, new material that they could sell and even obtain copyright for without having to gain permission from the creator or pay for a licence. This would see a huge transfer of value from individual creatives to tech companies and strip creatives of the opportunity to refuse or grant permission for the use of their work by AI companies, placing thousands of jobs within the creative sector under threat.
These proposals to dramatically widen the text and data mining exception have been met with staunch resistance from the creative community, which has emphasised not only their economic harm but the damage that the erosion of intellectual property rights will do to industry as a whole by stunting future creativity. UK Music has referred to the text and data mining exception as “music laundering”. Equity, the trade union, has said that the proposal
“could be a huge assault on the property rights of performers.”
The Publishers Content Forum has said that the proposals would disincentivise further investment in high quality data. The Design and Artists Copyright Society, which represents visual artists, has warned that
“this change will have far-reaching detrimental consequences”.
It has urged the Government to
“look again at how the policy objectives”
of supporting AI-driven technologies
“can be better met without undermining creators’ rights.”
After hearing evidence from some of those groups and many others, the Lords Communications and Digital Committee found that the IPO’s text and data mining proposals were “misguided” and advised that they be dropped “immediately”. I was therefore encouraged yesterday to hear the Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), tell the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee that she was “pretty confident” that the text and data mining exception would not be going ahead as proposed last summer.
As the Intellectual Property Office falls within the remit of the Minister responding to the debate, I am hopeful that he will confirm that the Government will not proceed with the all-out exception to copyright. That news would be welcomed across the creative sector, but a number of questions remain to be answered. Why were the proposals ever signed off? Who asked for them? What issue were they trying to solve? On what basis was it deemed necessary to adopt such a broadbrush approach? What evidence is there that the copyright exception will benefit the UK economy in general and the promotion of AI specifically?
If the proposals are indeed not proceeding as originally intended, how will the Government ensure that stakeholders are thoroughly consulted on alternative proposals to avoid a repeat of last summer? How will Parliament be consulted to ensure that the correct balance between promoting our creative sector and developing AI can be achieved? Both sectors are strategically important to the UK.
Many of the creative workers who responded to my survey expressed a clear desire for robust enforcement of current copyright protections, with any form of open access text and data mining arrangement offered on an opt-in basis for creatives. One respondent, Ian, said:
“If musicians and composers wish to sell their rights to software companies to train their systems then that is their right, but the default should be that it is illegal to use any music without permission, and it must be enforced robustly.”
There does not seem to be a shortage of free data online. Google has this week revealed a new AI tool that is able to generate music from a short textual description using only work that is not protected by copyright. Other survey respondents advocated stricter rules relating to copyright infringement and tougher legislation to improve copyright protection of individuals and companies.
What is the solution? How do we balance the legitimate concerns of rights holders with the need to foster an environment that stimulates innovation in AI? The answer cannot simply be plucked out of thin air. It needs to be worked out in detail after careful discussion between Government, officials and stakeholders from across the full breadth of the creative sector.
The creative industry, like all sectors, will have to adapt to accommodate AI, but the industry is capable of and already making progress with that. Creatives have largely accepted that AI-generated content will have its place in the market, and they are already using AI to enhance their work by driving efficiencies and extending their reach to new markets. It also gives rise to a number of new licensing opportunities to generate value for creatives. However, a solid regulatory framework is essential to protect their rights and ensure that they can take part in value creation and retain control over their work.
My team and I have spoken to a number of bodies across the creative sector, whom I thank for sharing their insights. It is clear that the passion that drives our creative industries is still well and truly alive. That is not to say that the creative industries will not face challenges from technological advancements. AI can operate faster and more efficiently than humans, but it will never be able to draw on the lived experience of humans.
The arts bind us together as a society. They create a collective identity and a shared cultural experience. The connection drawn between reader and author, listener and songwriter, and artist and viewer cannot be replaced by a robot. The value, beauty and joy of the arts is that they reflect the human experience. How sterile and lonely our lives would be if human life were only to be captured on servers and in pixels. How deprived we would be if algorithms served us up only what they thought we wanted to hear and see and we no longer had the opportunity to encounter something completely different.
We must also remember that creators are individuals who often dedicate their lives to their craft. History teaches us that as manual workers are replaced by machines, skills atrophy as demand for them falls. People work hard to develop a skill because they hope to earn a living from it. If the economy no longer demands skills in the creative sector, they will start to decline.
Amy, a composer who responded to my survey, said:
“We train for many years, often at our own expense, to develop and hone our skills in order to share our music. Yet with every week that goes by, we see our music being devalued at every turn. We should be embracing musicians, composers and artists, not trampling over them with the click of a button.”
If creative industries no longer present a viable career option, we risk deterring future entrants to the sector and depriving future generations of creative skills. Another survey respondent, Oliver, noted:
“AI threatens having a creative industry that continues to breed and create new ideas.”
We must embrace, rather than resist, AI developments. Unleashing innovation in AI is central to economic growth, but that objective cannot be pursued at the expense of creatives. We cannot let AI replace the human creators who have built our world-leading creative industry, nor can AI content be produced off the backs of hard-working creatives without their consent. I urge the Minister to confirm that the Government will not proceed with the text and data mining exception proposed last summer, and I would welcome his assurance that all relevant stakeholders will be properly consulted in the development of alternative proposals to balance the needs of our creative and digital economy.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
It is pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I do not wish to speak for a long time. I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on her excellent opening speech. She made some powerful and important points.
Last year, I was briefly the Minister for tech and the digital economy, and this issue came within my remit. It sits between the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and the Minister’s Department, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. I was surprised then, and I am surprised now, by the result of the Government’s consultation. The recommendation that was made is the most extreme of the options considered. It is unsurprising when we read the responses that, on the whole, rights holders complained that the general exemption was a bad thing, and researchers and developers who wanted to do it thought it was a good thing. However, the Government’s response seems to completely dismiss the concerns raised by rights holders and entirely favour the people who wish to exploit this data for their own benefit.
It is quite clear that people are seeking to extract value from data that other people have created in order to create products and tools from which they themselves will benefit commercially. There are already lawsuits in the music industry between musicians who claim someone else has listened to and copied their work and sought to benefit from it commercially. For example, someone could take the back catalogue of every track ever written by the Beatles to learn the techniques and methods. From that, they could create new music composed in the same style, as if the group was at its peak of writing and recording today. They would do so without the consent of the rights holders of that content, and they would make money out of it for themselves.
We can easily see how that kind of passing off could occur at scale, without any licence or exemption, or any benefit for the original creators. We should be concerned about the impact that will have on the creative economy. Many experts believe we are already very close to the day when AI will be capable of creating a new No. 1 download track or even a hit movie.
Sarah Olney
The example of the Beatles is an excellent one that we can all relate to. However, the Beatles have already generated a great deal of wealth from that back catalogue. Does the hon. Gentleman not think it would be a greater threat to new and emerging artists, who perhaps have not yet achieved the reach of the Beatles, that their copyright could be breached and their music replicated before they have even had a chance to establish themselves as an artist and as the correct owner of that work?
Damian Collins
The hon. Lady is completely right. It has an impact on new artists in two ways. First, they are competing against AI-generated generic music from legendary artists. Secondly, the technology could be used to spot new and emerging artists who may be gaining in reputation and popularity, to quickly copy their style and techniques by analysing the data and text from their works, and creating new works from that. It opens the door to the machines really taking control of the creative process, to the detriment of original artists.
The important point of principle is that when people have created works, they should have the say on how those works are exploited. It is detrimental for another organisation that sees value in that work to take it, mine it, create something from it and claim it as its own. It would be rather like saying, when radio launched, “Well, we don’t really think that we should pay artists any money for playing their music on the radio because the radio creates a new audience for their work; more people are likely to buy records as a consequence, and charging for music would inhibit the growth of radio and radio stations, which have a huge benefit to the country.”
As technology has developed, we have decided to recognise that, with technological advances, we must reward the creators as well. Their work is exploited through those technologies to entertain and engage people, and it has a value too. If we deny them access to that value, we will restrict their work and the future work that will come from it.
I think that it is very important that there is at least an opt-in or an opt-out. The Intellectual Property Office cites other jurisdictions in the world where exemptions exist. In its preamble, it cites the EU as one of them, but what it does not say is that there are pretty fundamental differences between the way that it works in the EU and the proposals for the UK. The IPO has also taken the most extreme option of having very general exemptions.
It is very important to think about the remit of AI, because we can already see how important AI will be to shaping people’s experiences of content. Probably the best live example of AI at work today is in the way that people play video games—the way that they are designed around the user as they play them—or the way that content is recommended to people on social media platforms. That is AI-driven recommendation tools learning from the things that people like and engage with—how long they look at things and what they listen to—and pushing new content at them based on that.
When we think about metaverse and virtual-reality experiences, that will all be based on machine learning and data mining to create new experiences for people. If people doing that mining can benefit from the creativity of others to create those experiences and create those new images, and can do so without any recourse or compensation to the original creators, then that is a big power shift in the creative economy, away from creators to people who drive systems—away from the artist to the data broker and data miner.
As we see the central role that AI will play in shaping people’s experiences in the future, it would be a big mistake, at this point, to completely cut out the creatives and see their data and content exploited by somebody else without any compensation at all. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. This is an urgent issue that requires a new think.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) for setting the scene so well, and the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) for contributing so well. When I listen to them, I am very aware that their knowledge of this subject is much greater than mine. However, I wanted, as I always do, to try to give a Northern Ireland perspective on it, because of its importance to creative workers and the creative sector.
The lockdowns were incredibly hard for so many businesses, but the creative arts were the forgotten business. I am pleased and proud to have been a member of Ards Borough Council for some 26 years prior to coming here. We had a massive focus on the creative arts. We promoted them greatly and got much out of them, as did our communities. During the covid crisis, for some three years, our musicians, actors, playwrights and theatre workers were unable to go to work, and the only way of keeping things going was to put those things online for people to enjoy and get a taster of.
Prior to the lockdowns, it was estimated that the creative industries—which are not quite the same as, but strongly overlap, the culture and heritage sectors—made up around 5% of businesses in Northern Ireland, employed around 25,000 people and accounted for 2.7% of Northern Ireland’s total gross value added, contributing some £1,088 million. That is no longer the case, as the lockdowns have decimated the sector. The hon. Member for Richmond Park put forward the case for the sector and the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe reiterated its importance, as will others who speak. I very much look forward to hearing what the Minister will say.
Thankfully, the lockdowns have ended, yet the threat to the creative industry has not lessened. Indeed, the proposals have escalated the threat. As the hon. Member for Richmond Park has put it so well:
“These proposals would be damaging to creative workers, such as in the music and publishing industries, as AI companies would be able to use their works without permission or payment. This would lead to a huge transfer of value from the creative industries to AI companies and also potentially damage the competitiveness of our world-leading creative industries”
That is the thrust of the issue. I am sure that the Minister will, as always, give an excellent response; perhaps he can solve the concerns and worries that the hon. Member for Richmond Park and others have. I look forward to that. I am given to understand that the Government and the Minister are taking this matter seriously. I know that there was a ministerial response to a question from the hon. Member for Richmond Park in December last year, yet it is right and proper for the importance of the issue to be underlined once more in Westminster Hall today.
For any computer system to be able to shred through data and text and circumnavigate the proper methodology is tantamount—I will use a Northern Ireland example, and we all know the product—to allowing someone to walk into the Tayto factory and steal the ingredients for the world’s best crisps, which of course Taytos are, and then say, “Well, they shouldn’t have put the ingredients on the outside of the packet!” I am being a wee bit facetious, but I am trying to illustrate the point in a way that all can relate to. The information is there, yet for someone to be able to walk in and take the specific ingredients without paying is not acceptable, and never can be.
I will conclude, because I am conscious that the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) wants to speak. I am on record as being supportive of our creative industry, and this protection must be in place. I know that the Minister has been listening carefully; he always responds to the questions that we pose, and I am pleased to see him in his place. I know that he will ensure that the Government enhance protection for the only source of income that many creative workers have. A world without art is a world without light, and the Government must ensure that the light continues to shine brightly from the shores of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—always better together.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I am mindful of the need for the wind-ups to take place, so I will try to be brief.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on introducing the debate and rightly stressing that there is a balance to be struck. AI will bring huge benefits to our society and to the cultural sector—indeed, the sector has been using it for many years—but it needs to have rules. We cannot have an ideological move towards tearing up rules with a deregulation agenda. Every industry needs regulations, whether they are electricity regulations or financial regulations. They benefit not only consumers and, obviously, the workforce, but companies, which get a degree of certainty about the areas in which they operate.
Colleagues have looked at some of the technical aspects and some of the specific effects on the industry. I want to put the issue in a slightly broader context. The music industry, which has rightly drawn attention to a number of the difficulties here, is one of the wider cultural industries in this country. It forms an enormously powerful ecosystem that is important not just in and of itself, and not just because of its economic benefits, but because of its wider societal benefits. It is one of the things—it is certainly not our weather—that makes the UK an attractive place to visit and work, not necessarily just in the cultural industries, but particularly in industries with more mobile international talent. Where are those people going to work? Would they rather work in Frankfurt or in London, Manchester or Edinburgh? These are very important considerations for the UK more widely.
This is not just about the technical side; the creatives are the key. Why did Disney recently change its chief executive? Because it felt that it was getting out of touch with its creative talent. Rupert Murdoch, a practitioner of realpolitik if ever there was one, famously said that “content is king”. By bringing those things together, we form a creative ecosystem that feeds on itself. That is why so many film companies are coming to the UK— because they are able to call on such a wide range of talent. It would be extremely unwise of us to create a deregulated sector, causing those considering where they should locate to ask, “Is my content safe there? Are there other jurisdictions where it would be better protected?” Those are the sorts of issues that we need to be discussing and focusing on.
We should also recognise that, as the hon. Member for Richmond Park said, it is not just those at the top. Key to the Planning (Agent of Change) Bill, which I introduced, was that nobody started by playing the O2; they started off in small venues and they built up. But people need to be able to sustain themselves. They need to be able to get an income so that they can move from playing part-time in the pub at the weekend to become semi-professional musicians, failing sometimes but then coming back. Not everyone makes it, and others decide it is not for them, but there are those who come through, which is why we had support from so many major stars for that campaign.
I urge the Minister to see that this is important not just for audiences or performers, but for the country. We see adverts at airports about “GREAT” Britain. One of the things that makes us great is our creative sector, across the board. We should be very careful about undermining what has been, for several centuries, one of its fundamental protections: the ability to protect one’s creative content, in order to benefit financially but also to have control over how it is used and to prevent it from being misused.
Mr Laurence Robertson (in the Chair)
We now come to the Front-Bench speeches. I call John Nicolson, who has five minutes.
John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)
Thank you, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on securing the debate.
As I was preparing for the debate, I was thinking about the pace at which artificial intelligence is advancing. All of us, I am sure, have seen news reports these last few weeks of free-to-use artificial intelligence sites being able to muster, at inhuman speeds, reams of error-free text or digital images in response to a simple command from a user. Vain social media users—some of them politicians, perhaps—were asking bots to touch up their profile photos. Students had been asking AIs to write their university essays. So I thought, “Why not?” I asked an AI to write me a speech about the impact of AI on the creative industries.
I discovered that I could tell the AI what tone I wanted for the speech. I was offered a choice of “poet” or “philosopher”. I went for philosopher. The AI got into its stride. “In the past,” it wrote,
“creative tasks, such as writing, editing, and design, were completed by humans, often with the help of specialised software and tools.”
“Humans.” “In the past.” It is almost chilling, Mr Robertson.
My automated pal continued. It was on a creative roll and it wanted to talk about creation. I quote:
“One of the most significant impacts of AI on the creative industry is the potential to automate”
—a split infinitive, you will notice—
“many of the creative tasks that were previously done by humans.”
Back to me again. I am not sure about other hon. Members, but I think creativity without the creative process—without the humans—just seems so soulless. On the upside—this must be music to the ears of some free-market zealots—my AI speechwriter continued:
“This automation of creative tasks can drastically reduce the cost of labour and increase production rates. Not only can AI automate creative tasks,”
it concluded,
“but it can also provide valuable insights and analysis that can help inform the creative process. AI-driven algorithms can analyse large amounts of data and provide insights into customer behaviour, audience trends, and market needs.”
So it seems it is not just creative jobs at risk; AI has already automated tech lobbyists.
Speakers have already focused on the impact of copyright, whether on established geniuses or on musicians who aspire to great careers. Could it be that AI in this context is just a euphemism for automated plagiarism? By its nature and design, AI is derivative. The algorithms driving the AI, and many others, are used to trawl the web, sucking up music, words and images that it reimagines or conflates according to preset guidelines. That all happens in a matter of seconds with little or no regard for copyright and the moral rights of the original creators.
What do we risk losing when we take the human out of humanities, if we fail to safeguard the art and livelihoods or our creators, or if we sacrifice spontaneity for speed? What would become of the poetry of Jackie Kay, the paintings of Alison Watt or the music of Julie Fowlis? Would their art ever have been imagined by the electronic soul of an AI non-being? I think we all know the answer to that.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on securing this vital debate on the potential impact of artificial intelligence on intellectual property rights for creative workers. I thank all the Members who took part and observe that although each Member who spoke before the Front-Bench speeches was from a different political party, they were united in condemning the proposals, and for very good reasons.
From the Brontë sisters to the Beatles, from Jane Austen to Arlo Parks, from David Bowie to Sam Fender, we are and have always been a country of creators. More than 3.2 million people in the UK are employed in creative sectors, and Government figures estimate that our creative industries contributed £115 billion to our economy before the pandemic. It is a great pity, then, that the Government’s creativity seems to be limited to finding excuses for their misbehaviour and their lack of active engagement in our great industries. To the Conservatives, it appears that regulation is a dirty word, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar) pointed out, the right regulation can support and enhance our great industries. The digital may present a new technological frontier, but our creative industries and the AI sector do not need to be in conflict with each another. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) emphasised, AI can support and has huge potential for the creative industries, but creators need the ability to enforce their rights over their work.
The IPO’s proposals include the introduction of a new copyright exception in order to promote AI, as we heard. That would remove the need for a licence and cut the opportunity for performers or creators to be remunerated for their work and talent. The House of Lords Communications and Digital Committee’s report on the future of the creative industries called that proposal “misguided” and asked the Government to halt the proposals. Not only would they undermine the basic principles on which our creative industries are based, but they could enable international businesses to scrape content created by others and users for commercial gain without payment to the original creators here in the UK. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, it could very much undermine our competitiveness in this key area. Last week, the singer, Rick Astley, filed a lawsuit against another musician for the impersonation of the classic hit, “Never Gonna Give You Up”. We are talking about a charter for the automation and industrialisation of such impersonations. I fail to understand why the income of our artists, musicians and creators is being risked in that way.
As part of Labour’s industrial strategy, we will shape and regulate AI technologies for the public good, increasing productivity, delivering better public services and improving the quality of life for all. That is how we grow our AI sector, not by throwing creators and artists under a bus. The UK is already well positioned to benefit from the transformation that AI can bring, but we need to look ahead to future risk, such as the potential for opaque AI systems to diverge from our intended objectives.
What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the next Adele or the next Stormzy does not have their work stolen and sold by an algorithm? For what reason has the IPO—for which he is responsible—not held discussions with the music industry, and will it now do so following this debate? What discussions has he had with the Minister responsible for the creative industries to assess the impact of the proposals? Finally, did the IPO make an estimate of how much the proposed exception will contribute to the economy, whether in AI sectoral growth or in creative industries’ loss? If the Minister is going to say that it will not go ahead, which I would welcome, he still has to explain why he allowed our important creative industries to languish in such doubt and uncertainty, and to promise that in future he will take a more active role to ensure that technological change supports our great industries.
The Minister for Science, Research and Innovation (George Freeman)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, and to have the chance to put the record straight in answer to the sensible points and questions made in the debate.
I congratulate and thank the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney). Had the debate not been scheduled, I would have hoped for someone to secure such a debate in order to give me a chance to explain the situation. I also thank all colleagues from across the House, from all parties, who have spoken this afternoon. I think we have covered most of the points.
It is a particular pleasure for me not only to be back in this role as the Minister responsible for AI, the Office for AI and the Intellectual Property Office, as part of my wider role as Minister for science, research, technology and innovation, but as someone who years ago ran a very basic AI drug discovery business. I mean, it was very basic: it was an algorithm with an elastic band connected to it compared with the technologies of today. It deployed basic early AI to look in the pharmacopoeia of “failed medicines” to find those that are actually dream medicines for certain segments of the population, trying to reprofile them.
I have therefore seen for myself how AI, properly deployed in an ethical framework, can be a huge driver for not only drug discovery, but better medicine and public services. I am also from a family with a lot of interest in the creative industries—my wife is a musician, artist and writer, my brother works in film and I have published a book—so I am very aware of the balance that has to be struck and that colleagues across the House have spoken about this afternoon.
I think it is fair to say, as a number of colleagues have, that AI is coming at us as a transformational technology at a pace that we have not had to deal with before in Government. The pace, the halving of technology cycles, and the speed at which it is maturing and reinventing itself are creating some big and interesting challenges for established industries, new industries that are taking shape and creators across all the different spheres of the creative industries. We need to get the balance right.
In case the Division bell goes or we have some other interruption, let me make it clear that when I returned to office, the Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), and I met promptly to look at the issue. We have written around to make it clear to other Ministers that the proposals were not correct, that we have met with a huge response, which should have been picked up in the pre-consultation before the proposals were announced, and that we are looking to stop them.
We will have a rather deeper conversation with the all-party group, whom I met yesterday, and with experts in both Houses and in the industry—creators, platforms, publishers, broadcasters and digital intermediaries—to ensure that we do not rush precipitately into a knee-jerk move that is wrong. We must try to anticipate the challenges that are coming and to get a regulatory framework in the UK that can keep pace with the pace of the technology and the issues it raises.
I reassure the hon. Member for Richmond Park, who secured the debate and asked a specific question about this, that we will not be proceeding with the proposals. I will go on to answer the question that I know the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) is going to ask me, which is, “How did this happen and what are the lessons from it?”
John Spellar
I thank the Minister for that welcome announcement—I presume it was an announcement? I understand that this has to go through a number of stages of inter-departmental consultation, but could he give any idea of when a definitive policy will be produced?
George Freeman
Theses have been written on whether it was an announcement with a capital “A” or a small “a”. I do not think I could be clearer that the two Ministers concerned agree that the proposals submitted, approved and published did not meet with the expected support. I hasten to say that they were published after I left Government, and it was a period of some turmoil. One of the lessons from this is to try not to legislate in periods of political turmoil.
The key bit of the right hon. Member’s question is: when will we see proposals? My strong instinct is that we should draw breath, take a chance to go through all the feedback from the last few months, and then, in rather more deep consultation with all the various interests, see if there are proposals that might command the support that is needed.
John Spellar
I am sorry to be pedantic. The Minister refers to discussions between him and the Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), which is enormously welcome. As he is speaking from the Dispatch Box, is that now Government policy?
George Freeman
The right hon. Member is well aware, as a veteran of these things, that for something to be a formal announcement on policy, a Government write-round has to go through the various Committees. That process is under way. Until that is done, I cannot formally confirm that it is collective responsibility Government policy, but the two Ministers concerned say that the proposals have not met with the support that was expected. [Interruption.] He has just said that that is good enough for him. I hope that it will be good enough for all those listening.
As colleagues have highlighted, the real issue is how we get the balance right. That is why AI is considered by the National Science and Technology Council, our senior Cabinet Committee, which is chaired by the Prime Minister and looks at the big issues that science and technology raise. I sit on that, and it is there to grapple with the big geopolitical and ethical issues that some of these technologies are raising. That is why we are working this year on both a creative industry strategy, led by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and an AI regulatory strategy, which will set out our approach to regulating AI.
As the global AI revolution accelerates, we need to be aware that we are working in a global environment, and to set a regulatory framework that does not drive AI creators and investors out. We are a leading AI nation. We have an opportunity to set the regulatory framework in a way that reflects the values that this country is respected for all around the world. I think the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) knows me well enough to know that I do not believe that there is a huge dividend from scrapping all the regulations that were put on the statute book during our membership of the European Union. There is, however, a very strong case for clearing up our regulatory statute book; there is an awful lot of dead wood and daft regulations. It can be very unclear.
I have led the charge in my party for saying that a lot of the Brexit regulatory opportunities are to set the frameworks in new and fast-emerging areas, whether it is AI, autonomous vehicles, nutraceuticals or satellites. The creation of regulatory frameworks that command the confidence of both consumers and investors helps to position this country as a global testbed for innovation, drives international markets, attracts investment and establishes the UK’s leadership in standards.
As Minister for Science, Research and Innovation, I am passionate about our leaning into that sort of leadership, as well as getting rid of some of the dafter regulations, such as the one that says that coffee machines have to turn off after 30 minutes. I do not know which Committee passed that, or nodded it through one day a few years ago. The truth is that our regulatory framework is incredibly complex for regulators, innovators and investors to navigate.
Chi Onwurah
I think the Minister will find that rather than our leading the way on AI regulation, both the US and the European Union have already made strides in AI regulation that it would be good for us to respond to. I wonder whether he inadvertently made an announcement with regard to the National Science and Technology Council, which he said the Prime Minister has chaired. Previous Prime Ministers have chaired it, but it was my understand that the new version was not going to be chaired by the Prime Minister. Is it chaired by the Prime Minister?
George Freeman
Unless an announcement has been made in the last few weeks that I have missed, yes. He has the right to depute the chairmanship of a particular meeting, but the point is it that it is the senior Committee of Cabinet dealing with science, technology and innovation. I am delighted that the Prime Minister reinstated it very early on—as soon as he took office.
The argument of the Intellectual Property Office last summer, presented to Ministers in good faith, was that if we look at what is going on around the world, there are other jurisdictions that have moved quickly to put in place similar text and data mining exemptions—in the EU, the US, Japan and Singapore. They are structured differently, but all are wider than the current UK exemptions. I do not want anyone to think that we were going out on a massive limb; we were making a move that was in the spirit of that made by other countries. There is an irony here, in that we were an active player in helping to shape some of those EU regulations. The challenge and opportunity for us, now that we are out of the EU, is to take the ambitions that we were pushing when we were in the EU and reach them more quickly and agilely—possibly even more digitally—in a new regulatory framework outside.
Damian Collins
My hon. Friend is right that there are exemptions in other jurisdictions, but none is as wide as the ones that we have set. The most comparable jurisdiction is Singapore. While Singapore has many great qualities, it is not a net exporter of music, nor does it have a creative economy on the same scale as ours. We have been discussing the Intellectual Property Office’s response to a consultation, in which it recommended introducing these measures. Am I right to take from what the Minister said that the Government are now minded not to introduce these measures, and so that for the time being, the status quo prevails until such other proposals may be considered?
George Freeman
That is exactly right. I will come to some of the lessons from that in a moment, but I am happy to confirm that.
In the consultation carried out by the Intellectual Property Office, a number of consultees made the case that UK copyright law was too restrictive, and was impeding investment in AI. The point was made about text and data mining exemptions in other countries, but I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe. He has a distinguished record in these affairs as a former Chair of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, and through his career. The regulations must be proportionate and reflect the economy that we are regulating. We have an incredibly strong digital creative industry and non-digital creative industry, and we must ensure that that is appropriate.
We heard rights holders arguing that no change should be made in the UK, and we also heard not just the big AI and tech firms but researchers in the life sciences and social sciences making the case that many of them were increasingly finding problems, not with negotiating with the obvious rights holders when it was clear who they were, such as universities, but with material available on the internet. They were finding it difficult to find the person to get permission from them, and that was holding back research, especially when working with multiple rights holders. While I am happy to concede that the proposals perhaps were not correctly, fully or properly drafted, there are some issues that are still worth pursuing. The Intellectual Property Office was asking the right questions, but it is more complex than the original proposals suggested. That is why we have committed to continuing that consultation.
Yesterday, I was with the all-party parliamentary group. I have instructed the Intellectual Property Office to share its analysis of the consultation findings, so that we can sit down together and go through what the issues are that we still need to deal with, and can get the balance right. As was said by a number of colleagues from across the House, when I say “get the balance right”, there is clearly a difference between those small and sometimes voiceless creatives—whether analogue or digital, but particularly if they are not in the digital creative economy—because some may want to completely opt out and say, “I just never want to see my image turned into an avatar, ever.” People need the ability to just opt out. People also need the ability to license, to be on the front foot, and to negotiate terms, which happens.
What the Intellectual Property Office picked up on from both sides is that there is a middle ground: there are those without a strong organisational platform through which they can set out the terms on which they are prepared to have their material accessed, and there are digital creators using intermediary AI technologies to create digitally, which is a legitimate activity, and who are struggling to find that interface and make it work. It is in that space that we particularly need to look to get the balance right between our creative, digital and AI sectors. Many in those sectors are small, extraordinarily dynamic and entrepreneurial.
In Coventry, I recently met a fantastic, almost underground coding community of teenagers doing amazing things. We need to be careful to ensure that the creative industry can flourish, and that the rights of the creators, who may or may not want their material to be used, are not trampled over. If they do want their material to be used, that takes us to a second issue: fair remuneration. I have stood here and discussed this with the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) before. There are issues about rights and about remuneration. How should we ensure that small creators are properly remunerated? There are issues that we need to deal with. As a number of colleagues have said, this is about the balance between rights, responsibilities and remuneration in the world of digitalisation of content and creativity.
There are two big lessons from last summer. One is that data is important. I have started a conversation with the Intellectual Property Office to ask if we could not do more to ensure that we have better datasets on exactly what the situation is with new, emerging revenue streams, new providers and new creators. The industry is moving very fast, and when it comes to which bits of the market are working well and which are not, there is a slight lack of data on which to base policy. Creating market conditions in which everyone can have confidence is the real challenge for the Government and for me as Minister.
I tentatively suggest that there may be another lesson, which is that we should harness the power of digital technologies and digitalisation when doing consultations. I am not quite suggesting that we should have run the AI-ometer over the consultation responses, but given the number of analogue Government processes, harnessing smart intelligence systems may provide us with a good way of identifying better clusters of feedback in consultations, and help to democratise the process of consultation. It is a slightly left-field point, but I am trying to signal that as we think about these industries, we have to ensure that we are not just talking to the same people, but driving new methods of consultation to keep up with the pace of the industry.
I have probably detained you, Mr Robertson, and other Members long enough. I hope it is clear that we have listened and heard, and we are absolutely committed to making sure that we get this right. Although the Government need to be on the front foot in anticipating the regulatory framework and getting it right, the proposals have clearly elicited a response that we did not hear when they were being drafted. We have taken the responses seriously. The Minister responsible for this area—my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster —and I have made it clear that we do not want to proceed with the original proposals. We will engage seriously, cross-party and with the industry, through the IPO, to ensure that we can, when needed, frame proposals that will command the support required.
Sarah Olney
Thank you for your excellent chairing of the debate, Mr Robertson, which it is a pleasure to wind up. I am delighted to hear that the Minister has committed, as far as he is able, to withdrawing the current proposals, and that he will consult widely with all parts of our creative industry before putting forward any further proposals. I am sure everyone in this room looks forward to hearing what those are.
This debate has, perhaps, been a reflection of why our creative sector is such a stronghold of the British economy. We have been debating this cutting-edge technology in the ancient surroundings of Westminster Hall. That really points out the context and the source of so much of the uniqueness in British creativity, across all parts of the UK.
I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) for bringing his expertise and experience in this area, which really contributed excellently to the debate. I am also grateful to the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson) for his contribution. I found it rather chilling, actually, that the phrase that sprung out at me was “software and other tools”—presumably those other tools are paintbrushes and musical instruments. It highlights that we cannot allow our human input and skills to be swallowed up by AI and, as the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire said, the very derivative nature of what we will be served up as a result.
I thank not only all Members who participated in the debate, but all the industry sector groups who spoke to me and my team about the issues they are experiencing, and particularly the artists, musicians and performers who responded to the survey. It has been incredibly useful to really understand this issue. I am particularly grateful to Megan Harding, in my office, who brought all this together and helped me with the debate.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the potential impact of artificial intelligence on intellectual property rights for creative workers.