Household Support Fund

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Wednesday 31st January 2024 Westminster Hall

[Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for securing this important debate. In Manchester, the household support fund provides a vital safety net to 60,000 residents, including providing cost of living support payments for 12,500 vulnerable households. Does he agree that, by not guaranteeing funding for the next financial year, the Government are putting at risk essential support schemes for many vulnerable people? After all, our constituents are struggling financially due to the Government’s economic mismanagement, with soaring inflation, a massive spike in energy bills and sky-high mortgage rates.

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

Order. I understand why people want to make interventions, but if they are that long, colleagues will be reduced to around two minutes each.

[Sir Stephen Timms]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I noticed that the leader of Manchester City Council wrote to the Prime Minister today, on behalf of the eight core cities, calling for the household support fund to be extended, making the point that it would be “catastrophic” for many people in our poorest communities if it is not. Given your remarks, Mr Hosie, perhaps I should not give way again.

I have no doubt that we will hear examples of the positive impact of the household support fund. At the Work and Pensions Committee last week, we heard from the head of benefits and advice at the Royal Borough of Greenwich. Like many councils, Greenwich has used the fund to support, in the school holidays, families entitled to free school meals. She told us how important it has been to those families to receive that £15 a week per child during the holidays. If the fund is not renewed, those families will have problems buying food in the Easter holiday.

One group that depends on the household support fund consists of hard-working, law-abiding families from overseas—often with children born in the UK—who have leave to remain in the UK but not yet indefinite leave, and who therefore have no recourse to public funds. They cannot claim universal credit, however tough their situation. Many councils have been able to support those families through the household support fund. Without it, there would be nothing.

The household support fund contributed £9.6 million towards essential white goods and furniture in 2022-23. The fridge of a pensioner in my borough, Newham, was not working. She is the guardian for her two grandchildren, one of whom has cancer. She was able to buy a fridge thanks to the household support fund.

The need for the fund to continue is clear. One-off help has always been needed, but gas and electricity prices are respectively 60% and 40% higher today than in 2020. The Trussell Trust, which had a reception in Parliament today, gave out 1.5 million emergency food parcels between last April and September—16% more than in the previous year. The continuation of the fund is crucial.

The current uncertainty is bad for everyone involved. One local authority told End Furniture Poverty:

“Part of the nightmare of this funding is, out of a team of 26, I have three permanent members of staff…we’re constantly onboarding and training people.”

Another said:

“Delaying the decision and failing to give local authorities sufficient notice has made it impossible to plan.”

This is no way to govern.

The Government can take some pride in the household support fund, but uncertainty undermines it. At a webinar attended by nearly 200 people yesterday, comments in the chat included:

“Without it, there will be no localised welfare assistance in Warwickshire.”

“In Brighton and Hove, our 50+ emergency food providers will have no way of coping if HSF is removed.”

“On the Isle of Wight we have used some of HSF to provide much needed funds for…food banks so they can purchase sufficient food to keep up with demand as donations have depleted drastically.”

Barnardo’s told us that it will publish a report about this precise issue next week.

Let me conclude by quoting a single mum of three in Greenwich. She said of the household support fund:

“It is a lifesaver…I hope and pray it continues.”

I agree, and I hope the Minister will too.

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[Sarah Edwards (Tamworth) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Hosie, and to be making my first Westminster Hall speech in a debate secured by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms).

I am not alone in this Chamber in expressing deep concerns for my constituents, who face a cost of living crisis that they neither asked for nor deserve. Just this afternoon, I was speaking in Parliament with the Trussell Trust, which warns of an unprecedented level of demand for food banks across the country. In my constituency, the demand for its food banks has risen by 44% since 2022 and by an alarming 101% since 2018.

I have been heartened and genuinely inspired by the community spirit shown in Tamworth during these tough times by the work of the Community Together CIC, led by Lee Bates; the Tamworth Co-operative Society, which donated stock to produce 450 food parcels for children and their families at Christmas; and the Heart of Tamworth community project, which runs weekly lunch clubs for those who are lonely, isolated and vulnerable. The Manor House project has played a crucial role in our community, offering counselling services, a food bank and many other initiatives. My constituent Liz Wadsworth created the community-run Tamworth Pantry, which has repurposed an old bus into a mobile community support station.

Now is not the time to withdraw support from struggling households. We need assurances from the Government that the household support fund will continue past March 2024. Between April 2023 and March 2024, Staffordshire County Council will have received just over £11 million from the household support fund. If the fund is not continued, it is extremely likely that councils will not be able to afford to replace that funding. A Lichfield District Council cabinet member wrote to me on the state of the council’s finances:

“How can councils fill in the gaps when it comes to supporting the most vulnerable, when they are struggling with the pressures of providing statutory services under the extreme cuts of the last 10 years?”

The Government must extend the household support fund.

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

I call Preet Kaur Gill. Is that Preet? [Interruption.] Apologies! I call Yasmin Qureshi.

[Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)]

It’s okay. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms) for securing this important debate.

The household support fund is worth £5.5 million for people in Bolton. Following reassurance in the autumn statement, it was understood that it would continue, but of course we have heard nothing from the Government. Bolton Council has had to hold back a further half a million pounds to bolster its local welfare provision service and mitigate the impact of possibly losing that £5.5 million. Today, another blow has been dealt to Bolton Council with the announcement that its service grant is going to be cut by a staggering £2.4 million.

Withdrawing the household support fund is taking away £5.5 million from desperate households in Bolton, which we need to support vulnerable people and pay for their clothes, food and other essentials. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation found that Bolton is now in the top five for child poverty in the north-west. The household support fund is a lifeline for my constituents. I urge the Minister: please do not cut the fund. It is a great safety net for the families and individuals facing the greatest hardships.

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

I call Sarah Maskell. Sorry: Rachael Maskell. Forgive me—it’s been a very long day.

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[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms) on securing the debate and on setting the scene so well. We have had marvellous contributions from right hon. and hon. Members. From the outset, I want to be clear that Northern Ireland has a different method of allocation —it is a different system. Our access to the household support fund ended with the energy costs support, and our constituents are directed to find equivalency in the discretionary support fund, as we have no existing household fund.

The funding in Northern Ireland is deliberately so pared back that people can claim discretionary support for only a small number of reasons. Simply being unable to cope is no longer one of them. It should be, but it is not. Those who suffer domestic violence and have to leave all their goods in the middle of the night cannot access good enough support. That is just one example.

Yet again, the ordinary person in Northern Ireland is still paying more to be part of the Union. If only we got all the benefits of being part of the Union! I am very supportive of it, but I think it is time that that was looked at. The Government committed today in the Chamber to looking at the Barnett consequentials and seeing whether we can have the equivalent of the Welsh provision. If we do, that will be a step in the right direction.

I have outlined in another debate how money in the local economy shrinks. The hon. Member for Tamworth (Sarah Edwards) mentioned food banks; I will speak about my food bank, to give some equivalency. Take a middle-class family with two working parents who perhaps used to take a wee weekend holiday once every quarter. The hotel now misses out on its income from them, so it cuts back the hours for the cleaner it employs, and the cleaner loses their income. The family no longer go to the restaurants they used to go to, so that money is pared back. Where do they end up? I will tell you where they end up, Mr Hosie: they end up at the food bank.

An answer has to be given to explain why the cost of gas and oil is substantially lower, and yet the savings are not being passed on. As an example, one family I know have paid £250 for their gas bill. They are a small family with two children. If they cannot manage it, there is no way in the world that pensioners can. The Government must step in with help for energy costs, not simply for those on benefits who need the help, but for all people who are struggling in every working and non-working capacity.

The Newtownards food bank, which is based at the House church in Newtownards in my constituency, is the first ever Trussell Trust food bank in Northern Ireland. The stats tell a story—I will finish with this point, Mr Hosie, because I know you are looking at the clock. The food bank helped to feed 1,272 people in December 2023, compared with 988 in December 2022. That is an increase of almost 29%. Many of those were new referrals: people who had never been before. That shows where we are. Poverty in Northern Ireland has risen, and people who have never had to claim before simply cannot meet the escalating costs. Action is needed, and action is needed now.

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

I call Vicky Foxcroft—five minutes.

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[The Minister for Employment (Jo Churchill)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. First, I would like to add my voice to those of others in thanking the right hon. Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms) for securing this debate. As Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, I know he is not only passionate about supporting those in need, but very thoughtful in the suggestions and the comments that he makes. I think we both recognise—indeed we have heard it from virtually every Member—the significant help that the household support fund has provided to people across England and, via Barnett consequentials, more broadly across the nation since its inception and during these challenging times. At this point, I feel it is only right for me to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) for their diligence and grit in ensuring that this reached those people who need help the most, as we have heard from every constituency. The attenuation of this scheme, and the fact that it is directed at those who need help the most, is a mark of its true success.

The right hon. Member for East Ham showed how beneficial the household support fund was, and how its local nature and adaptability was part of its success. Since its launch in 2021, the Government have provided more than £2.5 billion, including Barnett consequentials, to support those most in need. This includes last year’s provision of some £842 million for England plus Barnett consequentials, bringing it to £1 billion in this year. The additional funding has enabled the latest and longest extension from April 2023, with those funds currently being delivered incredibly effectively by local councils. Across England, 153 local authorities have used this funding to provide—[Interruption.]

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

Order. Unfortunately, there is a Division. I will have to suspend this sitting for 15 minutes for the first vote, and then for 10 minutes for any subsequent vote. Let’s hope we can be back here at 5.51 pm.

Future of Pensions Policy

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2020 Westminster Hall

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

Order. Before I call the next speaker, let me say that if we take no more than seven minutes per Back Bencher, it will all go swimmingly.

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[Rob Roberts]

I thank the Minister for summing up. I am interested to hear about using the BBC to enhance pension credit take-up. I suggested that very thing to my right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary just last week at Department for Work and Pensions questions, so it is good to know that there is movement on that. I was very pleased to hear about auto-enrolment, changes to age limits, losing the lower earnings limit and adding a savings element—all very good.

I thank all hon. Members. There seemed to be wide-ranging agreement on things such as promoting the idea of automation where we can and financial education. That may include not only knowledge of facts but the skills, critical thinking and analysis that will serve our young people well. There was cross-party support and agreement on many issues, although sadly not for the comments of the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) on Scottish independence. That is for another day.

I appreciated the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) channelling her inner Donald Rumsfeld and trying to tackle the unknown unknowns. I think we will allow our mortal Minister to tackle the known unknowns before we give him any powers of clairvoyance. That is definitely a wise thing to be doing. I appreciate everyone’s contributions, including that of the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the future of pensions policy.

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

In order to allow for the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am briefly suspending the sitting.

Universal Credit

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Wednesday 17th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Neil Gray]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. She is absolutely right, and I will be coming on to that point later in my speech.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Neil Gray]

For the last time, I will give way.

[Stewart Hosie]

My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. I am advised by one of my housing associations that every tenant—every single one—who has been moved on to universal credit so far has either gone into rent arrears or has seen their rent arrears rise. May I urge my hon. Friend to continue to press not simply for more money for universal credit, but for a complete halt to the roll-out and a complete redesign of the system?

[Neil Gray]

I agree with my hon. Friend, and as a result, he may enjoy the conclusion of my speech.

Personal Independence Payments

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Wednesday 31st January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

This debate is rather over-subscribed. More than 20 people wish to speak. If everyone takes two minutes, I might be able to get most of you in; if people take four or five minutes, I will get seven or eight in. If you take interventions, the number will go down. It is all in your hands. I cannot impose a formal time limit, but think about your colleagues when you are into your sixth or seventh minute.

[Laura Pidcock (North West Durham) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the claimant experience of the personal independence payment process.

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Hosie. I am going to be really stingy with interventions. I can already feel the wrath of my colleagues, but I have to do that because of the number of people who have put down their name to speak.

I called this debate because of the sheer volume of casework my constituency office receives regarding personal independence payments. My constituents find many aspects of the process difficult, not because they are not capable but because the forms are confusing and the assessment procedure is complex and exhausting. There are more face-to-face consultations, more regular reviews and more reassessments of awards than under the preceding benefit, disability living allowance.

The initial impetus for this debate came from my constituents, but as soon as I asked on social media for people to tell me their experiences, I realised the huge scale of this issue in North West Durham and all over the country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

Order. We have 35 minutes. Brevity is at a premium.

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[Laura Smith]

I am sorry, but I must get through my speech; I am conscious of the time.

George was assessed by Atos on 1 June 2017. He is now going through the process of appeal, but the timescale is being put further and further back and he still does not have a date for his case to be heard. He is struggling to survive financially, and he has said that he is feeling more depressed every day and having sleepless nights. He has stated—this is the important bit, to me—that if it were not for his wife, he would feel as though he could not go on any more, and he has contemplated not taking the medication that he needs. The way in which he and many, many others in my constituency have been treated is absolutely diabolical. I urge the Government seriously to stop burying their head in the sand and face up to the reality that has been created by their own policies.

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

I intend the summing-up speeches to start after the next speech, so if anyone wants to make a last intervention, they know what to do.

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[The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Sarah Newton)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I thank the hon. Member for North West Durham (Laura Pidcock) for securing this really important debate. I always welcome every opportunity to discuss PIP with parliamentary colleagues from all parties, and I hold regular advice surgeries.

I have so little time and have been asked so many questions that it will clearly not be possible to reply to them all, but I shall try to respond to as many as I can, which means that I will not be able to take any interventions. However, I have already set out a calendar of forthcoming events at which Members can come and speak to me. I understand how busy colleagues are, so if it is more convenient they can ask their caseworkers to come, bringing the cases that have been raised today so that we can go through them in detail.

It is clear from the cases that have been raised passionately and sincerely today that there are problems—I readily acknowledge them, and we are working hard to fix them. However, I have also heard a lot of confusion. Some hon. Members have raised issues that relate to ESA, not to PIP. Clearly some people are not aware of other financial support programmes such as Access to Work, which could help in some of the cases raised. A lot more support is available than hon. Members may realise, which is why I am running detailed teach-ins to ensure that all Members fully understand the wide range of support available.

Before I answer hon. Members’ detailed questions, I really want to set the record straight. Accusations have been made today, about me as a Conservative and about all Conservatives, that frankly I am not going to accept. It is simply not fair to say that Conservatives think disabled people are scroungers or do not deserve the support that we so want them to have. Conservatives want to ensure that everybody in our society can play their full part. We want to support people with disabilities to do so. Judge us on our actions.

Myths have been cited repeatedly that we are cutting spending on supporting people with disabilities or health conditions. Independent data shows that that is simply not true. Every single year since 2010, the coalition Government and now the Conservative Government have spent more and more money, and we are committed to spending more. Expenditure on the main disability benefits has increased by more than £4.1 billion in real terms since 2010 and is set to reach a record high of more than £23 billion this year. It will continue to grow each year to 2022.

People have been scaremongering because they do not remember that people on disability benefits are exempt from the benefits freezes and that their benefits will rise again this year. PIP is not included in the benefits cap. As I said yesterday, it is really important that we get the facts out there. It really concerns me that people who really need support will be put off from going to jobcentres or contacting us to get the benefits that they need and richly deserve.

We have heard a lot about the claimant experience and the customer experience. In my short time at the DWP, I have visited DLA processing centres, assessment centres and Jobcentre Plus offices, where I have seen DWP staff who are highly motivated and well trained to provide a good service to some of the most vulnerable people in society. I really encourage hon. Members who have not done so to visit their local Jobcentre Plus, speak to job coaches and see the excellent work that goes into supporting people with disabilities and ensuring that they get the support available. That includes support into work; a huge number of people with disabilities want to work, and we want to enable them to.

Hundreds of thousands more people are now getting support as a result of PIP than with DLA. In the constituency of the hon. Member for North West Durham, as we migrate people from DLA to PIP, 900 people’s awards have been increased. Some 41% of her constituents who have moved from DLA to PIP are getting more money. When Opposition MPs say, “Let’s scrap PIP and all go back to DLA,” they are saying that they would deny their constituents an opportunity to benefit from PIP. More people, particularly with mental health conditions, are being supported now than were ever supported under DLA.

I want to bust a myth. In this country, we are all rightly proud of our welfare state, but there is a myth that it was a Labour invention. Developing the welfare state took many MPs from all parties over a considerable period. I am just as proud of the modern welfare state as any other Member of this House. The first woman MP in Cornwall, Beatrice Rathbone, was a Conservative. She worked with her auntie Eleanor Rathbone, and together they were pivotal in the legislation that brought in the welfare state—a milestone whose anniversaries we still celebrate. It was people reaching across the political divide, working for the benefit of the most vulnerable in our society, who enabled us to develop the modern welfare state. Conservative Members are just as passionate about ensuring the best possible support for the most vulnerable people in our society.

I assure all hon. Members that, like my predecessors, I am committed to continuous improvement. We have commissioned independent reviews of the PIP process and we are taking their recommendations on board. We are working closely with stakeholders. Only last week, I had a meeting with my PIP stakeholder group, which includes representatives of all the main UK disability rights organisations and charities, including disability rights organisations from local authorities around the country. I will be setting up panels of ESA and PIP claimants to ensure that we listen directly to their experiences as we embark on our continuous improvement process.

It is also important to revisit current experiences. I accept that we always have to make improvements, but 89% of people said that they felt that the assessor treated them with respect and dignity. Undoubtedly we have more to do, but I am committed to making the improvements that we all want to see.

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

Ms Pidcock, you have only 30 seconds, I am afraid.

[Laura Pidcock]

I am completely astounded by the Minister’s use of her time. She ignored every single one of our points. I would like her to write to every single Member who took time to set out in detail the inadequacies of the system, because they were all completely ignored while she spoke about Conservative Members, the history of the Conservative party and justice on welfare.

The Minister said that the Government would be judged on their actions. They certainly will. Every single disabled person in this country is waiting to see what the Government will do to remedy the system’s inadequacies. An alternative reality is being presented by Conservative Members—

[Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)]

Order.

[Laura Pidcock]

Their use of figures diminishes disabled people’s experiences. It is a shambolic system.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Universal Credit Project Assessment Reviews

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. That is exactly how we are rolling out universal credit, which is why we are able to make changes and why the process is being done gradually. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire pointed out, these reports go back some years, since when there have been a number of changes. At one level, I would love to be able to publish the most recent IPA report because it makes it very clear that we were right to expand the roll-out of universal credit in the autumn. I am not publishing it, however, so in effect, I am tying one hand behind my back, because I respect the principle that these reports as a whole should not be published. None the less, in accordance with the motion, I am prepared to provide the reports to the Select Committee.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State is very generous in giving way. He says that he is unhappy that he cannot publish the most up-to-date report, because it would give the Government—I am paraphrasing here—a glowing report card. I wonder what was assessed. Is he not aware that housing providers, housing associations and others say that every single one of their tenants who has moved on to universal credit is now in arrears or has increased rent arrears? Is he not aware of what is actually happening on the ground? I would like him to publish that report, because it would contradict everything that all of us on the Opposition Benches are seeing in our communities.

[Mr Gauke]

Let me turn to the substance of universal credit then. Universal credit is the biggest modernisation of the welfare state in a generation. The old system traps people in a cycle of benefits dependency, incentivising working only 16 hours or fewer a week and preventing people from reaching their potential. Universal credit frees people from those hours limits and lets them keep more of what they earn. Under universal credit, people are moving into work faster and staying in work longer than under the previous system. Once universal credit is fully rolled out, it will boost employment by around 250,000, which is equivalent to 400 extra jobs per constituency. It is improving the welfare system and the lives of those who use it.

Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty)

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whiteford]

The reason that the housing benefit bill is so high is that we have had a recession that has pushed people out of employment. One of the trite suggestions that we have heard repeatedly from the Government in trying to defend this indefensible tax is that people should just pick up a few extra hours’ work here or there to meet the bedroom tax. Since the start of the financial crisis, underemployment has soared. Millions of people have seen the prospect of overtime vanish and their working hours cut. According to the TUC, there are 3.3 million people across the UK who are working part time, but who want to be working full time. That is twice the pre-recession level. When we look at the steep rise in housing benefit, we therefore have to look at the inflation in the housing market in some parts of the country and at the underlying economic drivers of unemployment and poor economic performance.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. The hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) spoke about saving money. He appears not to realise, as I am sure does my hon. Friend, that if there was a proper balance of property, with those who are over-housed and those who are under-housed getting an appropriately sized property, the Government would save not one penny. He is therefore wrong. This policy is not about saving money, other than by directly punishing the poor.

[Dr Whiteford]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The under-occupancy penalty will apply to people who are in work and people who are out of work. It takes no account of the fact that a large proportion of the people affected are simply not available for work. The people who move into the low-rent homes may or may not be paying the rent, but it will certainly not save any money.

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[Dr Whiteford]

The hon. Lady makes a good point about the practicalities of building one-bedroom houses as opposed to two-bedroom houses. On the Scottish Government’s record on building houses, 19% of the socially affordable houses built in the UK in the past five years have been built in Scotland. The Scottish Government have built 34,000 affordable homes since they came to power. Given the lack of progress in the past, that is important.

[Stewart Hosie]

My hon. Friend makes a good and extremely important point on the balance between the number of properties and the number of bedrooms. However, the real solution is not changing the number of one, two or three-bedroom properties that are built, but scrapping the measure.

[Dr Whiteford]

My hon. Friend makes the most fundamental point in the debate. I am pleased that so many Scottish MPs are in the Chamber to contribute to the debate, but 82% of Scottish MPs did not vote for the measure, and we should stand in resolute opposition to it.

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[Kris Hopkins]

What my hon. Friend says is true. We need to ensure that the facts about this legislation are put out there and that vulnerable people are not misled by some of the interesting conversations that are going on.

[Stewart Hosie]

rose—

[Hywel Williams]

rose—

[Hywel Williams]

rose—

[Stewart Hosie]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Which one does the hon. Gentleman want to give way to?

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[Kris Hopkins]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that point. The truth is that as a Conservative, I care about the disabled. I want to champion the work and efforts of carers and we should not allow the Opposition to brand us as that nasty party. Many of our councillors are working really hard for the vulnerable people in our society, and I know that Government Members care about those people.

[Stewart Hosie]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

I have been struck by a number of things said by Government Members today. First, I noted the mechanical usage of the almost robotic mantras of, “1 million spare rooms”, “under-occupancy” and “utilisation” and an almost frighteningly casual disregard of the fact that they were talking about people’s family homes. These are places where people have brought up children and may have lived for decades, and, as a result, have created the stable, safe and supportive communities we all want to see. Those are now to be torn asunder for the sake of a money-saving measure—that is what it is—which will not work. The extraordinary thing is that the bedroom tax works only if the policy fails. If everybody could move to what the Government consider to be a “properly sized property”, the housing benefit costs would probably be identical to what they are today—not one penny would be saved. The tax will work only if people cannot move and they give the Government this extra money, over and above what they already pay to stay in their family home.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

That is not necessarily the case. If people who need more rooms and are currently living in the private sector move into the social housing sector, while the people in the social housing sector who need fewer rooms move into the private sector, there will be a substantial saving.

[Stewart Hosie]

Unless, of course, we factor in the fact that rents in the private sector are dearer, and we have heard evidence that would rather contradict the assertion made elegantly by the hon. Gentleman.

Another thing that struck me was the hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), who is not in his place, saying that he wanted more facts and less scaremongering. That is very sensible; I am all in favour of evidence-based policy making. What he and others have then done is to say that a discretionary payments system is available to help. That confirms that those who live in specially adapted accessible housing are not exempt and that foster carer families are not automatically exempt. By asking for more facts and less scaremongering, and then talking about discretionary payments, which, by their nature, may not be available, particularly if the pot runs out, these people are confirming the lack of exemptions that make this bedroom tax as nasty as Opposition Members think it is.

[Tom Greatrex]

The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about the discretionary nature of this policy, particularly in relation to foster parents. I have been contacted by a foster parent who was contacted by their housing association to say that rooms where people are cared for are counted as spare rooms, but they did not know anything about the existence of the discretionary payment. Such people are reliant on at least two or three levels of communication to get the discretionary payment, so surely it would be much better if foster parents were completely exempt.

[Stewart Hosie]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. In the meanwhile—until that happens—communication should of course be better and foster carer families should be encouraged to apply now, in advance, if that is possible. He rightly says that this policy should simply be scrapped because it will not work and, as far as I can see, it is only punitive. That is certainly also the view of the Scottish Government, who feel that it will have an appalling impact on families throughout Scotland and, indeed, the rest of the UK.

That assessment also shows that eight out of 10—the exact figure is 79%—of the households in Scotland set to be hit by this change, as we have heard before, contain an adult with a recognised disability. That is extraordinary. This is about as punitive as it could be—[Interruption.] The Minister of State is muttering, “Do they need a spare bedroom?” He is using the robotic mantra again, suggesting that somehow it is evil to have a spare bedroom. There are very good reasons for having spare bedrooms and I shall come to some of them later.

I know that the Minister for Housing and Welfare in the Scottish Government has warned the UK Government of the impact of this change. The Scottish Government have highlighted to the Government the disproportionate effect on disabled people and have asked them to rethink their policy. We understood before the start of the debate that the Secretary of State had instructed a rethink on part of the policy, and that is to be welcomed. However, we have found out that we will have a rolling review after the policy starts, which might not report until two years after commencement.

The numbers I have show that people with two spare rooms will pay an extra £20 a week, or more than £1,000 a year. They could be £2,000 down before the Government’s review reports back and says that those rooms are not really spare at all, because one of the sons is serving in Afghanistan. Alternatively, he will not be able to come back to the family home because they will have been forced to move. That is the kind of issue the Government are failing to take into consideration—[Interruption.] The Minister is still muttering, but he will not get to his feet to say anything. I am sure that when he was at university, he was more than happy to go home to his family house. Why should working-class children whose houses are part-funded by housing benefit not be able to go back to their family home because of the nature of their tenure? That is ridiculous.

Other groups are affected, of course, such as tenants who are willing to move to smaller properties and are waiting for one to become available, but who will lose out in the meantime; the parents of foster children; and parents who live separately and look after their children. The final category concerns me greatly. I have already been contacted by a constituent—one of many. He is separated from his wife, which is sadly not uncommon, and has two daughters in their late teens. This gentleman is so careful that he does not switch the heating on in his very modest apartment unless there are guests. He counts every penny.

His wife has primary caring responsibility for the two children, but one or both of his daughters stays with him up to four nights a week. That will become impossible without the second bedroom, and even if he could find a smaller property it is highly unlikely—almost impossible, in fact—that he would be able to do so within the community in which he and the rest of his family live. That means that the relationship between him and his children will wither, because contact will become far less possible.

The Government do not understand the appalling impact this tax will have. The fact that eight out of 10 of the households that will be hit include an adult with a disability is compelling evidence that the UK Government must reconsider, and quickly.

As I said earlier, not only disabled people but many others will be forced to pay. I want to raise two specific cases with the Minister. The first is that of a woman—a pensioner who will not herself be affected—who cares for her severely disabled adult son. He lives in his own apartment, which has two bedrooms. That is not his fault; it is the one he was allocated. He has a severe psychological condition and needs to be cared for every day, and his mother carries out those caring responsibilities. If he is forced to move, the trauma will be extraordinary. If he manages to get through that, the fact that his mother has medical conditions of her own means she will be unable to carry out her caring responsibilities if her son is forced to move even a few streets away. The real-life impact on that family in that part of that community will be horrendous. I am deeply disturbed that the Government have not thought this through properly.

[Steve Webb]

May I ask the hon. Gentleman to confirm that he is aware of the provision for a bedroom for a non-resident overnight carer?

[Stewart Hosie]

I am extremely well aware of that. The thing is, the mother who cares is there during the day and perhaps occasionally in the evening, but she is not a permanently present overnight carer. That goes back to this being a matter of discretion, rather than people with a disability being properly exempted.

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman have any idea whether his constituent meets the criteria for a discretionary payment?

[Stewart Hosie]

rose—

[Steve Webb]

It is not discretionary; it is a right.

[Stewart Hosie]

The Minister says it is a right. I believe it may be a matter of discretion. It is not at all clear whether my constituent could meet the criteria for a discretionary payment, and even if he did, getting it would depend on whether any money was left in the pot.

I did not intend to speak in such general terms. In the final three minutes, I will concentrate on what is happening in Dundee. We have figures from the council telling us that 3,387 households will be affected by this tax—and it is a tax. Of those, 583 will lose 25% of their housing benefit. That is a loss that will have the impact of a tax.

[Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stewart Hosie]

No, as I have only two and a half minutes left.

The other 2,804 households will lose 14% of their housing benefit. Tenants in two-bedroom council properties could lose benefit entitlement of approximately £9.93 a week, which is £516 a year. Those with two so-called spare rooms will lose an entitlement of £20.07 a week, which is more than £1,000 a year. Does the Minister understand what the loss of £1,000 a year means to families who are already struggling to make ends meet? Does he understand the consequence of that level of indebtedness? Legitimate lending companies will not lend to people in those circumstances, and credit unions can only do so much. This policy will drive people into the hands of loan sharks and illegal moneylenders, and the consequences of that will be picked up by social work departments, health services and the police, at a cost to the public purse for a policy that is unlikely to save this Government any money in the first place.

[Jim McGovern]

A couple of weeks ago, I attended a meeting with officers of Dundee city council who said that discretionary payments would be extremely limited because they have never had the funds for that. I asked whether they had smaller houses for people who were willing to move. They replied, “No.”

[Stewart Hosie]

The hon. Gentleman sums up the situation nicely. The discretionary pot is too small. I do not dislike discretion generally—I think it is quite helpful—but there are too many categories of people who should be fully exempt but who will be subjected to the tender mercies of discretionary decision making, which may go against them when it ought not to.

In short, this remains a very bad policy with too many of the wrong people suffering a very bad impact, and it must be reversed. It risks destabilising communities; it disproportionately hits disabled people; it puts the burden of paying the cost of this Government’s economic failure on the backs of some of the poorest in society. That, I think, tells us everything we need to know about the Tory-Liberal Government, many of whom—most of whom, I suspect, or perhaps even all—have not been poor and, more important, do not understand what it means to be poor in society today.

Remploy Marine Fife

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

We know that Remploy has faced an uncertain future for many years. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath will be well aware of what happened under the previous Government and under his leadership in 2008, when 29 factories were closed. A modernisation plan that was put in place failed. Unrealistic targets were set that were never achieved, and it cost £555 million.

We must look at what this Government were left with, what had not worked before, what money—half a billion pounds—had been spent, and the situation now. A sixth of the entire budget for people with disability and their employment support was spent on 2,200 workers in loss-making Remploy sites, when we have 6.9 million disabled people of working age, all of whom we must help.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

Let me put that into local context, then I will give way. There are 36 disabled employees at Cowdenbeath Remploy, yet there are 13,800 disabled people of working age in that constituency. In Leven there are 28 disabled staff at Remploy, yet there are 13,600 disabled people in the constituency. As a Government we must help all those disabled people, so we have protected the £320 million budget. What we are doing is helping all those people.

[Stewart Hosie]

I thank the Minister for giving way. This is not just about money. It is also about information. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) referred to the Dundee plant which cuts the fabric for the Fife plants. It may well be able to be saved and rise as a phoenix as a social enterprise, but Remploy has been unable or unwilling to provide the cost breakdown for the factory, making the development of a business plan impossible. That at least the hon. Lady can surely sort out.

[Esther McVey]

I am happy to engage with the hon. Gentleman. All the information is coming out in a staged process, as announced in December. All the bids are now coming forward, but I will help the hon. Gentleman with any information that he does not have.

Welfare Reform Bill

Stewart Hosie Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. My noble Friend Lord Freud, who has direct responsibility for housing benefit matters in the Department, is also responsible for liaising with the devolved Assemblies and so is having those kinds of discussions all the time.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

In his discussions, will the Minister make it clear that the Scottish Government have pointed out that some 70,000 families will be affected by this proposal? There was a huge imbalance between the 95,000 properties that are under-occupied and the 26,000 that are over-occupied, and the cost to people in Scotland and the Scottish economy will be around £54 billion a year. That does not seem to make sense, particularly when he could not answer the point made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), which is that if his policy works there will be no under-occupancy to penalise.

[Chris Grayling]

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman check his facts. The total cost of housing benefit is £26 billion a year, so this cannot cost the Scottish economy £54 billion a year.

Our Department and local authorities have a good track record of delivering housing benefit reform. I am confident that these changes will be communicated and delivered successfully in the same way the local housing allowance reforms were delivered last year. We will work hard to ensure that there is a smooth transition in order to address the challenges and protect the most vulnerable through discretionary payments.