Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty) Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateDepartment: Department for Work and Pensions
Steve Webb
Main Page: Steve Webb (Liberal Democrat - Thornbury and Yate)Department Debates - View all Steve Webb's debates with the Department for Work and Pensions
Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty)
Steve Webb Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I welcome the opportunity—
Steve Webb
I think the hon. Gentleman is after a world record. I will, as they say in the trade, make just a little more progress—to the end of the sentence— and I will then be happy to give way. I am happy to have this opportunity to discuss attempts to end the spare room subsidy.
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way so early in his speech. It is always very nice to hear him at the Dispatch Box, but we do not want to hear from him; we want to hear from the chief guru and architect of the bedroom tax, the Secretary of State. Even at this late stage, I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) could step aside at the end of the evening, so that the Secretary of State can come to the Dispatch Box and try to defend the indefensible. He should be here, and he should be trying to explain and defend this measure.
Steve Webb
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Secretary of State and I are of one mind on this issue. I will explain the context and origins of the policy, and the relevant context as to why we are seeking to take approximately £12 billion a year out of spending on social security.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
May I tell my hon. Friend that the people of North East Somerset are desperate to hear from him, are looking forward to hearing from him, and are glad that he is leading this debate?
Steve Webb
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend.
Before we go into detail about the ending of the spare room subsidy, it is worth providing a little more detail about the fiscal context in which this measure is being taken. In the final year of the Labour Government, borrowing was £150 billion a year. This measure saves £500,000 a year, so if we were trying to fill Labour’s deficit by measures of this sort, we would need 300 such measures to tackle that scale of borrowing. I expected the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), who opened the debate, to suggest alternative sources of revenue not just for this measure, but for every single welfare spending reduction that she has opposed—all £12 billion of it.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
If the hon. Gentleman’s proposition in setting out the context—on which he and I profoundly disagree—is that those who, in effect, should foot whatever difference there is between us in public finances are the people affected by this bedroom tax, I must say that he is absolutely wrong. May I give him the specific example of my constituent Cheryl Maskens? Cheryl Maskens was homeless and was offered a two-bedroom property. Had she refused that property she would have been told that she had not accepted re-housing. Should she be the person who loses out in this scenario?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
A lot of Members want to speak and we are only up to the Front Bench speeches. Can Members make sure that if there are to be interventions, they are short? Those who want to catch my eye but intervene too much will go down the list, and they will understand why.
Steve Webb
I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker.
On the analysis that the hon. Gentleman says he profoundly disagrees with, he made two comments and I will address them both. He disagrees with the analysis that there was a deficit of £150 billion, when the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) famously left a note for his successor saying that there is no money left. The hon. Gentleman may not be aware—I do not know—that the previous Labour Chancellor set out spending plans for this Parliament, which involved tens of billions of pounds of spending reductions. The two biggest things on which the Government spend money are paying their employees and paying benefits. We have already squeezed public sector pay. The Opposition initially opposed and now accept that policy. The second biggest item of Government spending is benefits, tax credits and pensions. If the hon. Gentleman can tell us how we can save tens of billions of pounds from public spending without touching benefits, tax credits and pensions, I would like to hear from him. He has not given us that answer.
Sheila Gilmore
The Minister has now clearly established that he sees the purpose of this change as saving money in the welfare budget, so will he please spare us all that stuff about making better use of houses? He knows that if everybody did reshuffle into the right size of house, there would be no saving, so will he just cut those pages out of his speech?
Steve Webb
The context is the need to save public money, but there are a variety of ways that we can do that. One way has already triggered the better use of social housing stock, but we are still in the overall context stage at the moment.
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
The Minister needs to understand that the real solution is growth in the economy: getting businesses to pay more corporation tax because they are making more profit; and getting more people into jobs and paying income tax, not this draconian and horrid tax that the Government are proposing.
Steve Webb
The structural deficit, which is the part of the deficit that does not disappear as the economy grows, was estimated to be approximately £80 billion. That is what we have had to tackle, regardless of the ups and downs of the economy. That is the core deficit that the Labour party left us to deal with—these are Labour cuts.
Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
Will the Minister take this opportunity to confirm his own impact statement, which makes it clear that if this policy works and encourages people to downsize to smaller accommodation, there will be no savings? Will he explain to the House which of the two objectives he supports: saving money or encouraging downsizing?
Steve Webb
No, I am afraid that the hon. Lady is not correct in saying that. There will be a range of responses to this change, which I will run through later in my remarks. Some people will stay where they are and will pay the shortfall; some people will use a spare room for a lodger or for sub-letting; some people will work or work more hours; and some people will move. Our impact assessment has a range of modelling on how people will respond, but it clearly includes people staying where they are and paying the shortfall—that is where the saving comes from.
Gordon Banks
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. A minute ago the Minister said that these were Labour cuts. May I seek your advice and clarification about who is in government?
Ian Murray
The Minister is being generous in giving way so early in his contribution. Can this Liberal Democrat Minister honestly say that it is fair to throw disabled people out of their house because of this bedroom tax, while giving millionaires £2,000 extra a week?
Steve Webb
On the tax treatment of the wealthy, I understand that Britain’s millionaires are demanding a return to the halcyon days of Labour when they paid a 40% top rate of tax, not 45%, and when they paid 18% capital gains tax, not 28%. I hope he is proud of Labour’s record on not taxing high earners as much as we are doing.
Steve Webb
I am grateful that someone has brought a voice to the voiceless in this debate. I have heard nothing about the 250,000 people shamefully left in overcrowded accommodation by the last Government and the nearly 5 million men, women and children on housing waiting lists up and down the land. Their voice deserves to be heard, so I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I was pleased to hear the Minister’s comments about fairness. I notice that the Conservative literature in Eastleigh says that the Liberal Democrats oppose further changes to benefits that would, they claim, make our welfare system fairer. Is he 100% sure that this measure will deliver the savings set out by the Chancellor? Yes or no.
Steve Webb
Our impact assessment is our best estimate based on what we expect the impact of the policy to be. That is all any Department ever produces. We believe that it is a robust best estimate.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
My hon. Friend knows that his Liberal Democrat colleagues expressed concern about this measure when it went through this House and the other House, and that it was changed as a result of some of those concerns, but does he accept that there is still concern that the message about the facts is not getting through and that pensioners in particular are worried? Will he also accept the need to address other categories of people who need separate rooms—for example, those with disabilities or those with teenage, university or service children—but whose needs are not being adequately met at the moment?
Steve Webb
My right hon. Friend has some credibility on the issue of welfare reform, because he has been prepared to vote for difficult decisions on public spending. Neither the Labour party nor the nationalist parties have taken any difficult decisions on anything—they simply oppose everything—whereas he has, quite fairly, been willing to take some difficult decisions and support them and, again quite properly, raise concerns about the detail of policy. He is entirely right. The principle of the policy must be seen in the context of deficit reduction. Given that we have to reduce the deficit, we want to do so in a way that potentially has upsides as well as downsides, such as by making better use of the social housing stock, but it has always been our intention to protect the most vulnerable. The additional £30 million on top of the core £20 million for discretionary housing payments is the key way we want to do that, and I will say more later about how we want to ensure that that system works.
Mr Rob Wilson
Does my hon. Friend agree that the question that the mover of this motion—she would not allow me to ask it—and the Labour party must answer is: do they support any restrictions on the size of accommodation for social tenants or on the amount of housing benefit?
Steve Webb
We know that the housing benefit bill doubled in a decade—up 50% in real terms—and that Labour did nothing to tackle it. With the collapse in house building under the last Government, it is not surprising that private rents, and as a result housing benefit bills, soared.
Mr Byrne
I know that the Minister does not want to deliberately mislead the House, so I know that he will stand up now, correct the record and say that Labour introduced the local housing allowance and limits on housing benefit, and acknowledge that our manifesto set out plans for a cap on benefits, including housing benefit.
Steve Webb
That is very interesting. The right hon. Gentleman and his party were in office for 13 years and decided in their 2010 manifesto—the manifesto to which he just referred—to do something to control housing benefit. In office, they do not do it, but as they are heading out of government, they promise to do something.
Gemma Doyle
Will the Minister explain to the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) that Ministry of Defence Ministers have now admitted that some armed forces families will be affected by the change? Why does he think that families of prisoners should be exempted, but not armed forces families?
Steve Webb
Let us address the position of armed forces personnel specifically, because there has been an awful lot of misinformation about that. A married member of the armed forces is unaffected, so if someone is living with a spouse and goes away to fight—[Interruption.] Let me work my way through—they will be unaffected. A young serviceman or woman living in barracks will not be affected either, because they are not social housing tenants. Many young service personnel living with parents not in social accommodation will not be affected, and neither will young people living in social accommodation who are not on housing benefit, so we are narrowing down the number of people we are talking about probably to a very small number. When a young serviceman or woman, leaves social accommodation where the parents are on housing benefit, their housing benefit will go up.
Steve Webb
If the hon. Lady knows it, I do not know why she asked the question.
The young serviceman or women, who will be on a wage, is deemed to be making a substantial contribution towards the household rent—say £70 a week or so—but when they have been away for more than 13 weeks, that non-dependent deduction does not apply anymore, so the housing benefit goes up substantially. There will be a charge for under-occupancy, which might be, say, £14 a week. Instead of paying £70 to the household housing costs, the young serviceman or woman will not have to pay anything, so if they value the room at £2 a day, they could still pay that £2 to mum and dad and be more than £50 a week better off. Rather than seeing mum and dad’s housing benefit fall, therefore, they will see it increase. So we have dealt with that issue.
Steve Webb
Perhaps I could make a little more progress.
The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan—[Interruption.] Sorry to disturb her—referred to private sector tenants and the relative position of social housing tenants. We spend more housing benefit on social housing tenants than on private sector tenants and we pay for their rent subsidy, so it is wrong to say that we subsidise private tenants more than we do social housing tenants. That is simply wrong. But if someone is living in private rented accommodation, broadly speaking we do not allow them an extra bedroom. Why, then, is it fair to have two houses next door to each other, one of which is privately rented and the other socially rented, and give a spare bedroom to the person in social accommodation, who also benefits from subsidised rent, but not to the person in the private rented accommodation?
Mr Byrne
The Minister is being characteristically generous in giving way. Why does he not tell the House the whole story and admit that the DWP has lost its case in the Court of Appeal and that its policy of discriminating against disabled people and not giving them any kind of special treatment has been struck down by the courts? That is why his Department has applied to the Supreme Court to have it looked at again. Why is he taking that to appeal and why will he not come clean to the House about how his policy is suffering at the hands of the courts because it is wrong?
Steve Webb
The case to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is in the courts now—before this policy has been implemented—so it is not specifically about this policy, but about a broader issue concerning the private rented sector. So it is a challenge to the regulations that his party was responsible for.
I will say more in a moment about the specific way in which we are planning to address the position of disabled people, because that is an important issue. Roughly two thirds of all social tenants have a disability as defined by the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, based on the measure used in our impact assessment. That is a similar proportion to those affected by this measure, so it is not disproportionate. If we look at the stock of social tenants, we inevitably find that about two thirds of them are in that category, and that is true of this specific measure.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
My hon. Friend will know about the lengthy correspondence that I have had with his colleague, Lord Freud, on my concerns regarding remote rural areas, of which there are a considerable number in my constituency. Will he or the Secretary of State agree to meet me to look at the potential for transitional arrangements that could assist those areas with specific needs relating to the change-over to this policy?
Steve Webb
We are always happy to meet my hon. Friend. He raises an important issue about rural areas, and that will obviously be germane to some of the concerns that members of the nationalist parties have raised today—
Steve Webb
And others, yes. As this is a nationalist debate, that seemed to be a relevant remark.
In response to concerns expressed in the House of Lords, we are going to undertake a rolling two-year research programme into the impact of these and other changes, and the impact on rural households will be one of the factors that we will look at specifically. Wales and Scotland are included in the scope of the research. We are happy to look at the allocation of discretionary housing payments, and at whether we have done enough justice to the needs of rural areas, compared with other areas. We will keep that matter under review.
Mr MacNeil
Did I hear the Minister correctly? Did he say that he was going to research the impact of this measure regardless of what it is going to do to people in the meantime? What he is suggesting is absolutely obscene, and the suggestion by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) that we should have some sort of transitional arrangements would mean that we would still end up with this at the end of the blooming day anyway. It is ridiculous. Get rid of it.
Steve Webb
Jolly good. That was helpful. We cannot research the impact of a policy that has not happened. We are implementing a change that is designed to save £500 million a year, and we have heard nothing about where others would find that money from. We have said that, as the policy is implemented, we will research and look into its implementation, because there are things that we can change as we go along, one of which is the allocation of discretionary housing payments.
Mr Reid
I believe that the policy could be made to work if people were offered smaller alternative accommodation before a penalty was imposed. As my hon. Friend knows, however, the nearest alternative for people living on the islands in my constituency could be on the mainland, and it could be 20 or 30 miles away for people living in the remote villages in Argyll. Will he look at the formula for allocating discretionary housing payments to councils, so that those in the highlands and islands could add in the rural factor and get more funding owing to the problems of the remoteness and the islands?
Steve Webb
My hon. Friend is very welcome to join the conversation between my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) and me, which I am looking forward to. He raises an important point. My hon. Friends have credibility in this argument because they have been willing to take difficult decisions on public spending, whereas Labour has just said no to everything, disowning its responsibility for the deficit and any willingness to say where the money would come from.
Steve Webb
I want to make some progress, as I have not yet got past page 1 of my speech and I think the House would like to hear from a few other people.
The cost of housing benefit increased in real terms by 50% in the past decade to £23 billion. Given that we said we would ring-fence the state pension, the biggest thing that we spend money on, we simply cannot ignore housing benefit for people of working age if we want to save money.
Steve Webb
No, I want to make some progress.
For social sector tenants alone, the bill totalled £14 billion. That is why we have had to look at this area of spending. The system for tenants renting in the private sector has already been tightened in a number of respects, and there is a fundamental fairness issue involved here. Is it right to squeeze private sector tenants’ housing benefit while making no change in the social sector, where rents are already subsidised and where people already have an advantage? That is what we are trying to address.
At the moment, there is a spare bedroom subsidy. We subsidise a million spare bedrooms in the social rented sector through housing benefit. We have a situation in which two households next to each other can be treated inequitably. We heard the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan talk about fairness. We have to be fair to the different sorts of tenancies. Those living in the social sector already benefit from a subsidised rent. Should they also benefit from a subsidised spare room? When we have a million spare bedrooms, and over a quarter of a million households living in overcrowded accommodation, we must do better. We have to regard the spare bedrooms in the social housing stock as a precious resource that we can make better use of.
Mr Weir
What would the Minister say to people who wish to downsize from a larger home to a smaller one, but who find that such accommodation simply does not exist in their areas? In mainly rural areas such as mine, such accommodation does not exist. People could be offered another home many miles away from where they have grown up, from where they work or from where their friends are. This is a ridiculous policy.
Steve Webb
I want to stress that there will a range of responses to the under-occupation charge. Some people will move. About one in six of the households we are talking about are in work, and there are options for people who are in work. People could take work. It is often said that there are no jobs, but there are more people working in this country now than in the whole of human history. The number of people in work in this country is now approaching 30 million, so, for some, working or working more hours will be an option. It will not be the answer for everybody, but it will be the answer for some.
Steve Webb
Let me just address the hon. Gentleman’s point before he replies to my reply. I have not finished replying to his first point yet.
There has to be better use of the social housing stock. I pay tribute to the housing associations in the Liverpool area, 20 of which have come together with local authorities to pool their housing stock. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point that a small housing association might have limited stock and limited scope for moving people around, but by pooling their stock, those organisations are able to make better use of it so that more options will be available. I entirely accept his point that the answer to this question will be different in a city from in a remote rural area, and that is why we are more than happy to look at whether the allocation of discretionary housing payments to help people in rural areas is the right answer. As it happens, the allocation of DHPs is slightly over-represented in rural areas, compared with city areas, because of the way in which it has been done. We recognise that there is an issue there.
Mr Weir
I thank the Minister for that answer, but he said that there would be a range of responses to the policy, including paying the difference. However, people on housing benefit are, by their very nature, on low wages. They are already under intense pressure from rising energy and fuel prices and from freezes on benefits if they are receiving any. It will be difficult for those people to make up the difference in that way. Their choices will be very limited, and many will be forced to move by financial necessity when the change comes in.
Steve Webb
We have already seen the impact of our restrictions in the private rented sector, and we know that people make certain choices. It would be wrong of any of us to belittle those choices, given the financial situation, and I do not do so, but we have seen people on relatively modest incomes in the private rented sector saying that paying £2 a day for a spare room is worth more to them than spending that money on something else. Some people in that sector are making that choice, and that is part of where the saving comes from. Some people in the social housing sector will do the same thing.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
In my constituency, the choice is between staying put in two-bedroom properties, of which there is a surplus, or moving to one-bedroom properties in the private rented sector, which cost more in housing benefit. How does that represent a saving?
Steve Webb
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that point. It is a common misconception that there is a one-way flow of people in this context. If someone moves from social housing into the private rented sector, as some do, that frees up socially rented accommodation, into which someone who might previously have been living in overcrowded, temporary or bed and breakfast accommodation can move. There will be flows in both directions, and we have taken account of those moves in our estimate of the cost of the changes.
Mr Raynsford
Does the Minister not recognise that the largest single driver for the increase in housing benefit in England is rent increases, not only in the private rented sector but in the social and affordable sector, because of the policies of his colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government who are pushing rents up higher? If a tenant moves out of a secure council tenancy into a new affordable rent tenancy, that will involve a substantially higher rent. If that person is on housing benefit, the benefit bill will rise. That is entirely counterproductive. Why is the Minister doing this?
Steve Webb
The right hon. Gentleman is very knowledgeable about housing, so he will know that the period of the last Labour Government was not a good one for the building of affordable homes. That is part of the reason for the problems we have now.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that nobody on the Government Benches takes any pleasure whatever from these changes, which have been forced on us by the actions of the Opposition who left us with a £1 trillion debt and a £160 billion deficit?
Steve Webb
My hon. Friend is quite right. These are Labour cuts because of Labour’s deficit.
Steve Webb
Let me make a little more progress, and I will give way again later.
We recognise that this is a time of change that will present challenges for tenants and for landlords, and we have to support both. One of the positive things to come out of the change is that landlords are getting to know their local authority tenants and social housing tenants far better than in the past. All too often, housing associations did not know their tenants well enough; we have now seen an important process of getting to know individual tenants and their needs. As a result, some of the more creative housing associations have schemes whereby half a dozen people have moved accommodation so that there is a better fit between the individuals and their housing needs. The 1 million spare bedrooms are a precious resource of our communities and of vulnerable people in them, and I will not have it said that those who stand up for the vulnerable are on the Opposition Benches, as we are standing up for them and we want those bedrooms filled.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I knew the difference between the two Members who rose, but with both standing I was not sure to whom the Minister was giving way. I do not need any advice from Mr Brown on this occasion.
Steve Webb
We got the right one, as it were.
We are all in favour of incentives to encourage people to make better use of the housing stock, and I welcome any measures the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) took to that effect, but they have not worked. We have 1 million spare bedrooms among people on housing benefit. The changes have simply not worked on the necessary scale—
Steve Webb
I have given way three times to the right hon. Gentleman, and I want to make further progress.
Dame Anne Begg
The Minister seems hell-bent on introducing this policy, but he might be able to protect some people. I think he accepts that some people will not be able to move because no suitable property is available. They will not be able to afford the shortfall and will therefore fall into housing rent arrears and could be evicted. At that stage, they become “intentionally homeless” and end up at the bottom of any housing list. Will the Minister look at that further to see whether he can do anything to ensure that someone in that position because of housing debt is not deemed intentionally homeless? Otherwise, such a person stands no chance of getting social housing again.
Steve Webb
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. The point of the policy is not for people to be evicted, which would raise costs for the Exchequer and for the individual, but to ensure that existing housing stock is fully occupied.
Let me try directly to address the issue of the shortfall. There were two ways in which we could have approached the matter, one of which was blanket exemptions, which is what we did for pensioners. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan for making it absolutely clear in opening the debate that pensioners are not covered by this change.
It is clear that we wanted to protect another set of people. Let me deal with the example of foster children, whom my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) mentioned. The position on foster families is, I think, shared across the House. If people need a spare bedroom for a foster child, we want to make sure that they have one, and we want to support fosterers. The question is whether that is done better by some blanket exemption or by what we have done in costing what it would take to meet the shortfall for those families and giving the money to local authorities so that a foster family for which this was an issue—it might not be an issue for all of them—can approach the authority and have the shortfall made up.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are entirely open to discussing whether that is the most effective way of delivering that support. Our judgment was that discretionary housing payments gave local authorities the discretion we would want them to have. If for any reason that message is not getting through and is causing anxieties to foster families who do not know about DHPs, for example, or if local authorities have not communicated well enough, we would be happy to look at whether this is the most effective way of supporting families. Where there is a shortfall, discretionary housing payments for this and other measures are available. We want to make sure that people use them when they are in genuine need. Eviction is clearly not something that we are seeking to achieve.
Simon Hughes
That was really helpful. I want to pursue the issue raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg). The Minister has said that he is willing to look at whether the discretionary funds will meet certain problems. May I take it that he and the Secretary of State would be willing to look at the categories defining which people need a bedroom, as I think some categories that are not currently counted as falling within the definition should be included in it?
Steve Webb
I can see the attraction of that approach, and I think there is a balance to be struck. The attraction of the approach for foster families would be that the size criteria could be defined and then categories of people such as a couple, teenage children and so forth could be added to the list. We could say that a bedroom used for a foster child is a bedroom, so no deduction applies, people do not need to go to the council for the DHPs and the Department for Work and Pensions rather than the local authority would meet the bill. That is one way of doing things.
The challenge for us in that approach is defining in Whitehall all the categories of people who ought to have a room. There could be difficulties even within a category, as there might be foster carers, for example, for whom this is more or less of an issue. It could vary from case to case. We have to make the judgment: where do we need to make a blanket exemption or a blanket entitlement to a room, and where do we say that we will give the local authorities money and discretion? Each side of the argument has its attractions. We have to ensure that the money we have given to local authorities is well spent and that people know it is coming.
I have been interviewed on various television programmes, which have featured case studies of people who were obviously distressed—and I do not doubt that some people are distressed by this change. Obviously, however, if they approached their local authority, they would not be affected by it. That is the issue. They would go to their local authority, which has been given money to help them; the authority would help them, so they would not be affected. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark and the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) are right that we must ensure that people are not unduly alarmed, as in many cases money is available to help the most vulnerable.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
Does my hon. Friend think that the guidance to local authorities on how they should target the discretionary fund and discretionary housing payments has been sufficient?
Steve Webb
My hon. Friend raises an important point. We have allocated funds to local authorities with two particular groups in mind: foster families and those for whom there has been a substantial adaptation to the property. We can all see whether a house has been substantially adapted; moving someone somewhere else and adapting the property again will not be a good use of public funds. That is the basis on which the funding was allocated. We have indicated that to local authorities, but I agree with my hon. Friend that we can probably do more and will do more to make sure that local authorities are aware of the needs of those groups.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Will the Minister confirm that the total amount of money available in discretionary funds to Wales will be £6.1 million? He will have seen that the Welsh Government last week estimated the total cost to Wales of the bedroom tax at £25 million. Does he concede that there is a significant shortfall, or is he proposing to increase the money available to Wales—and, indeed, to the rest of the country, where a similar shortfall will apply?
Steve Webb
I started my remarks by talking about deficit reduction because this measure is intended to save money. The shortfall to which the hon. Gentleman refers is the saving to the Exchequer. If we fill the gap completely, we will not save any money, so we might as well not do the policy. I have to say that if Wales is getting a fifth of the shortfall, it is doing exceptionally well relative to the rest of the country.
Steve Webb
If I may, I shall respond to the Chairman of the Select Committee, who made an important point about those who are “intentionally homeless”. Although it is for local authorities to make decisions on homelessness applications as they do now, under current statutory homelessness legislation, if the only reason for the person’s homelessness is a reduction in benefit that is outside their control they should not be considered intentionally homeless by the local authority. I can put that on the record and hope it is helpful.
Owen Smith
The Minister is generous in giving way. He says that Wales is doing exceptionally well, but his own impact assessment demonstrates in black and white that 46% of claimants will be affected in Wales versus a UK average of 31%. Wales faces the largest impact—more than anywhere else in the country. Will the Minister therefore reconsider his remark that Wales is doing particularly well out of the bedroom tax?
Steve Webb
The impact of ending the spare-room subsidy that we currently pay will be an average loss in Wales that is below the national average—£12 a week, as opposed to £14 a week—and the same is true of Scotland. Both Wales and Scotland will experience below-average losses.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the size of discretionary housing payments. Across the country as a whole, we have allocated £30 million, relative to a saving of about £500 million. That £30 million is on top of the £20 million that local authorities already receive in DHPs, so a total of £50 million will now be available to them. If Wales is receiving a bigger proportion of that, it is receiving a bigger proportion of the DHPs.
Steve Webb
I am going to make some more progress, but I shall be happy to respond further later.
We have engaged actively with a range of advice organisations, including the Chartered Institute of Housing, to develop guidance for social landlords. We have already encountered many examples of social landlords working with tenants to prepare for this change. However, we recognise that certain individuals will face problems, which is why—on top of the £20 million in DHPs that local authorities already receive—we have allocated an extra £30 million. As I have said, a total of £50 million will be available to them to help people who are affected by this policy. I have already mentioned two groups whom they can help: disabled people living in significantly adapted accommodation, and foster carers, including those who need to retain an extra room when they are between fostering placements. I believe that authorities will be able to help about 5,000 foster carers, and about 35,000 wheelchair users living in adapted housing.
There has been some discussion about the position of disabled people. The definition of disability used in our impact assessment is a self-assessment based on a household survey. It should be borne in mind that fewer than a third of the people affected by the policy are receiving disability living allowance. We have also touched on the position of service personnel, and I think that I have reassured the House about that.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
The Minister has said that he is considering the rural element of discretionary housing benefit. Last week the BBC reported that the Secretary of State had instructed officials to look into the definition of disability, and the way in which the bedroom tax would be applied to disability. Is the Minister saying that the Secretary of State was wrong and that no instruction has been given to officials, or is he countermanding what the Secretary of State said last week?
Steve Webb
Not at all. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady was listening, but I said earlier that we kept this and all other policies under constant review, and that, in particular, we were considering whether the use of the DHP to target vulnerable groups—which is what I think the whole House wants us to do—was being effective in protecting the people whom we all want to protect. We are continuing to work on that, to ensure that we are achieving what we want to achieve.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Given what the Minister has just said about disability living allowance, will he agree to exempt people who receive it from the bedroom tax? How can the Prime Minister possibly say that he is putting disabled people first if that is not done?
Steve Webb
At the risk of straying into other legislation, let me point out that when we had to make difficult decisions on benefit rates—which, of course, the hon. Lady opposed—we specifically exempted DLA, attendance allowance and the support component of employment and support allowance as a sign of our commitment to disabled people.
The hon. Lady suggests that we should exempt a third of those affected by the policy. As she will understand, this measure is partly about reducing the deficit and partly about making better use of the housing stock. Receiving DLA is not synonymous with needing a spare bedroom: that is the point. Someone who needs a spare bedroom can approach the local authority, and we have given local authorities funds for that purpose, but a blanket exemption of people receiving DLA does not correlate with the need for a spare bedroom.
As my noble Friend Lord Freud announced on 15 October last year, these measures will be monitored and evaluated over a two-year period from April this year. Initial findings will be available in 2014, and the final report will be published late in 2015.
Jim Shannon
May I return the Minister to the subject of disabled people in bungalows or houses to which they will have to consider moving in order to downsize? What criterion will the Government use to enable a person to justify keeping a spare bedroom? Will it be a doctor’s note saying that the person is disabled and needs a bedroom of his or her own?
Steve Webb
We have already made one specific exemption. Someone who needs a spare room for a non-resident, overnight carer can have it. That is an absolute right, and people do not have to apply for it. However, someone who is in particular need can approach the local authority, which has discretion—after all, the D in DHP stands for discretion; there is no set of national Whitehall-driven rules—and the authority can then judge whether the household is indeed in particular need of help from the budget that has been allocated to it. We have not set out a rigid blueprint; the whole point is that local authorities will have discretion to meet people and, if they think it a priority, to meet their needs.
Caroline Lucas
I thank the Minister for pointing out that the D stands for discretion, but as far as I can see it stands for draconian. The Minister is trying to give the impression that people need not worry, because they can approach their council to get the extra money. Does he not realise that the extra money that he is providing is a pittance in comparison with the amount that is needed? This is essentially an ideological attack on social housing: the Government are simply trying to get rid of it.
Steve Webb
It is astonishing that the hon. Lady should suggest that we are trying to get rid of social housing, given that we have built more affordable housing in the last year than was built, on average, over the preceding 10 years under Labour. That is an absurd suggestion. I entirely understand that the hon. Lady opposes everything—it is a kind of nihilism, which is fair enough—but her suggestion is not a credible option for a credible Government.
The research that we will undertake will include small-scale primary research involving a range of local authorities, social landlords and voluntary organisations in England, Scotland and Wales. The researchers will consider supply issues, rural effects—which were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid)—and people who are unable to share rooms. When possible, they will also consider the effects on vulnerable individuals and their financial circumstances, social networks and family life. That was mentioned earlier as well.
Steve Webb
I hope to end my speech in a moment, but I shall be happy to give way to the hon. Lady.
Nia Griffith
If the Minister is so keen for people to receive discretionary payments, can he explain why the Government are taking to court a case in Wiltshire in which a disabled child is unable to share a room with a sibling? Why are they spending money on taking that case to court if they think that money should be given to such families?
Steve Webb
There is a limit to what I can say about cases that are currently in the courts. We have been given permission to appeal to the Supreme Court. We are, of course, applying the current Appeal Court ruling, and we have issued local authority guidance on how such cases should be dealt with. That case is very much in flux at present, and I do not want to say too much about it. However, let me make a general point that sums up what we are trying to achieve.
We are trying to tackle a massive structural deficit. The biggest two items of public spending are public sector pay and benefits. We have taken action on public sector pay, with little or no support from the Opposition. We have also had to take action on benefits. We have concentrated on working-age benefits because we have protected the state pension, and no Opposition Member has suggested that we should not have done that. We were trying to find £12 billion from public spending, and housing benefit is one of the biggest working-age benefits. We had tackled private sector housing benefit, and we had to look at the social sector. The most valuable way in which we can look at social sector housing benefit costs is to look at the million spare bedrooms that we currently subsidise, and to ask whether that subsidy is fair to the people who do not receive it.
These are difficult choices, but we have had to make them because of the mess that the Labour party left to us. I hope that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill will begin with an apology.
Stewart Hosie
I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. In the meanwhile—until that happens—communication should of course be better and foster carer families should be encouraged to apply now, in advance, if that is possible. He rightly says that this policy should simply be scrapped because it will not work and, as far as I can see, it is only punitive. That is certainly also the view of the Scottish Government, who feel that it will have an appalling impact on families throughout Scotland and, indeed, the rest of the UK.
That assessment also shows that eight out of 10—the exact figure is 79%—of the households in Scotland set to be hit by this change, as we have heard before, contain an adult with a recognised disability. That is extraordinary. This is about as punitive as it could be—[Interruption.] The Minister of State is muttering, “Do they need a spare bedroom?” He is using the robotic mantra again, suggesting that somehow it is evil to have a spare bedroom. There are very good reasons for having spare bedrooms and I shall come to some of them later.
I know that the Minister for Housing and Welfare in the Scottish Government has warned the UK Government of the impact of this change. The Scottish Government have highlighted to the Government the disproportionate effect on disabled people and have asked them to rethink their policy. We understood before the start of the debate that the Secretary of State had instructed a rethink on part of the policy, and that is to be welcomed. However, we have found out that we will have a rolling review after the policy starts, which might not report until two years after commencement.
The numbers I have show that people with two spare rooms will pay an extra £20 a week, or more than £1,000 a year. They could be £2,000 down before the Government’s review reports back and says that those rooms are not really spare at all, because one of the sons is serving in Afghanistan. Alternatively, he will not be able to come back to the family home because they will have been forced to move. That is the kind of issue the Government are failing to take into consideration—[Interruption.] The Minister is still muttering, but he will not get to his feet to say anything. I am sure that when he was at university, he was more than happy to go home to his family house. Why should working-class children whose houses are part-funded by housing benefit not be able to go back to their family home because of the nature of their tenure? That is ridiculous.
Other groups are affected, of course, such as tenants who are willing to move to smaller properties and are waiting for one to become available, but who will lose out in the meantime; the parents of foster children; and parents who live separately and look after their children. The final category concerns me greatly. I have already been contacted by a constituent—one of many. He is separated from his wife, which is sadly not uncommon, and has two daughters in their late teens. This gentleman is so careful that he does not switch the heating on in his very modest apartment unless there are guests. He counts every penny.
His wife has primary caring responsibility for the two children, but one or both of his daughters stays with him up to four nights a week. That will become impossible without the second bedroom, and even if he could find a smaller property it is highly unlikely—almost impossible, in fact—that he would be able to do so within the community in which he and the rest of his family live. That means that the relationship between him and his children will wither, because contact will become far less possible.
The Government do not understand the appalling impact this tax will have. The fact that eight out of 10 of the households that will be hit include an adult with a disability is compelling evidence that the UK Government must reconsider, and quickly.
As I said earlier, not only disabled people but many others will be forced to pay. I want to raise two specific cases with the Minister. The first is that of a woman—a pensioner who will not herself be affected—who cares for her severely disabled adult son. He lives in his own apartment, which has two bedrooms. That is not his fault; it is the one he was allocated. He has a severe psychological condition and needs to be cared for every day, and his mother carries out those caring responsibilities. If he is forced to move, the trauma will be extraordinary. If he manages to get through that, the fact that his mother has medical conditions of her own means she will be unable to carry out her caring responsibilities if her son is forced to move even a few streets away. The real-life impact on that family in that part of that community will be horrendous. I am deeply disturbed that the Government have not thought this through properly.
Steve Webb
May I ask the hon. Gentleman to confirm that he is aware of the provision for a bedroom for a non-resident overnight carer?
Stewart Hosie
I am extremely well aware of that. The thing is, the mother who cares is there during the day and perhaps occasionally in the evening, but she is not a permanently present overnight carer. That goes back to this being a matter of discretion, rather than people with a disability being properly exempted.
Stewart Hosie
The Minister says it is a right. I believe it may be a matter of discretion. It is not at all clear whether my constituent could meet the criteria for a discretionary payment, and even if he did, getting it would depend on whether any money was left in the pot.
I did not intend to speak in such general terms. In the final three minutes, I will concentrate on what is happening in Dundee. We have figures from the council telling us that 3,387 households will be affected by this tax—and it is a tax. Of those, 583 will lose 25% of their housing benefit. That is a loss that will have the impact of a tax.
Geraint Davies
No, because I will run out of time—perhaps at the end if I have time.
We will see major problems. My hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State for Wales mentioned the impact of this change on Wales. He said that 46% of households would be affected in Wales as against 31% in England—half as much again. Once again, this is part of the strategy of taking money out of the poorest communities, yet poor people spend more of their money. If we want a growth strategy to get people back into work, we should give money to poor people instead of giving it to the rich who hide it away in savings accounts or offshore accounts. When people have only a little money, they have no choice but to spend it. We are denuding local authorities with poor populations of money power.
What of incentives? A son or daughter of parents might say, “I want to go off and get married and live with this person. I want to go off and live in a different town and get a different job. I haven’t got a job here; I’m unemployed.” The parent would say, “Son, that will cost me”. What if the children want to go off to university? That is going to cost the parents, too. Once again, this is just encouraging people to stay where they are until somebody hits 60. It is preposterous. The savings will not be made.
Steve Webb
There are only so many times that the hon. Gentleman can get it wrong. If someone goes away to college and is based at home, the bedroom is kept.
Geraint Davies
My point is that if someone goes away to work, that person will lose the bedroom. Moreover, if someone’s children go off to university, they will not be hanging around in the local chip shop—which is good, but obviously their parents will say, “We do not want an educated son and daughter going off and leaving us to pay for the empty bedroom. You can stay here and run the chip shop. That was good enough for us.” That is the sort of new economy that the Minister—who is now dozing off—wants, and it just does not make any sense.
As for the overall savings, the Government are making political choices. They will not save £490 million, because much of that will consist of costs for local authorities. What they are saying is “We will give the money to the voting people. We will increase their tax thresholds. Let’s face it, they are not going to work any harder. We will not harm the older people, because they vote; we will harm the poor people who do not vote. Let us hope that they do not. If they do not register to vote, we have our other plan to carve up the constituencies, so that their size relates not to the population but the number of people who are registered.”
This is a cynical attempt at political manipulation that has no regard for the economic and social impact. It is absolutely disgraceful, and it should be thrown out.
Mr Bain
My hon. Friend is certainly right to draw attention to the absurdity of the Chancellor’s claim that there is a zero tax band for people on low incomes, who of course pay national insurance, higher VAT under this Government and all the things described in this debate. I should also point out that rents are rising in much of Scotland—by 6.3% in Aberdeen and 5.1% in Edinburgh, for example—which is adding to the pressure this policy will cause.
The bedroom tax will hurt the country in many ways that the Government do not presently acknowledge, for example through its impact on families, the economy, employment and housing. First, these plans utterly fail the test of promoting economic growth. Indeed, by diminishing demand among people who will spend the money, the least well-off, they will have a deeply contractionary effect. Keynes’s paradox of thrift will sadly become a death knell for local shops across the country as people are forced to cut back on spending. The University of Strathclyde’s Fraser of Allander Institute estimates the cost to the Scottish economy to be more than 300 jobs, £30 million a year in lost demand and a reduction in wages in Scotland of nearly £8 million a year.
The Minister claims that people should work longer hours, but do I really have to point out to him that under-employment has soared to 3.2 million under this Government and that there is a slump in productivity because demand has been so weakened by their catastrophic fiscal policies? I also remind him that, with the deficit tracking 7% higher this year than last and our credit rating having been downgraded, these are Tory cuts that he is defending because of the Chancellor’s utter and abject failure on growth.
The Office for Budget Responsibility predicted in November 2011 that the economy would grow last year by 2.5%. It has been confirmed today that instead, it grew at less than a tenth of that rate. The impact assessment on these changes also reveals the truth: if people are able to change their behaviour, as the Minister vainly hopes they will, these plans will save little or no money for the Exchequer. His other policies to cut the benefits bill are failing, because unemployment is 340,000 higher than the OBR predicted in 2010 and living standards are falling in a low-growth economy. He can generate the savings he is seeking with this policy only if people cannot move or work longer hours and so are forced to pay the tax. He is making the poorest suffer for the Chancellor’s manifest incompetence in securing less than a tenth of the economic growth we were predicted to have over the past two and a half years.
Secondly, these proposals are a byword for absurdity. The Minister believes that people can simply uproot themselves from homes they have lived in for three decades or more, and from friends, family and jobs, to go and live in parts of the country where there are smaller houses and perhaps fewer opportunities to work. He says that alternatively, people should take in a lodger—a step that is actively discouraged in the registered social housing sector in Scotland, where stock is allocated on the basis of need. The sheer absurdity is further heightened by his refusal to admit until this afternoon that his plans will potentially remove money from up to 96,000 members of the armed forces, nearly 8,000 Army trainees, carers and foster parents in Glasgow, while nearly 1,000 prisoners on remand in Barlinnie jail in my constituency will be exempt.
Mr Bain
No, because I am compliant with Mr Speaker’s strictures on those who wish to take part in the debate. The Minister will have an opportunity to deal with this later.
All age groups in society will be affected. People over the age of 61 could be drawn into this tax too if they have a spouse or a partner living with them who is under that age and they apply for universal credit after October.
Thirdly, these plans hit the most vulnerable the hardest. Two thirds of the 660,000 people affected across the UK have a disability. Last week I met disabled people who told me that they will be caught by the tax and asked to pay an extra £14 a week for having a room in which no one sleeps but that is used to provide physiotherapy and medical treatment within their home. I spoke to the friends of a young person with a learning disability who is co-operating with the local housing association and who would move into a small house if he could, but there are simply none available. Through no fault of his own, he will be forced to pay the bedroom tax on income support of £47 a week.
Fourthly, there is a lack of available properties for people to move into. Some 540,000, or 81%, of those losing out will be people who cannot move because there are no one-bedroom properties in their areas. According to Glasgow Housing Association, there is a waiting list of 13,000 in Glasgow for one-bedroom properties because housing associations, and the council before them, responded to local housing demand by building homes with two or more bedrooms. With a social housing shortfall of 156,000 properties for Scotland’s housing needs, there is no way the required properties could be built so that people can avoid destitution through having to pay this tax from April.
Fifthly, these plans will cause enormous uncertainty for our housing associations. They now have no clarity about their future revenue levels or the investment decisions they can make on social housing. They are unsure whether they should be building one-bedroom houses. They are fearful of managing a surge in rent arrears, with the cost being paid by all tenants in the form of lower priorities for refurbishment of existing properties or reduced budgets for repairs.
The wider issue is this Government’s lack of empathy with those who live in social housing. This is a further attack on that very concept from a Government who have cut the social housing budget in half. This is not an issue that divides people in Scotland from those in England and in Wales: it is about a feeling that Ministers are losing their sense of what is morally right or wrong for people across the United Kingdom. What best sums up what ordinary people feel about the injustice of this absurd tax is a conversation that I had with a 69-year-old constituent on the way to my constituency office last week, who stopped me to see whether she would be affected by the bedroom tax. When I explained that she would not, she told me how troubled she was that other people in her community would have to pay it. She said that this has been the worst Government in her lifetime and that the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) is the most arrogant and out-of-touch Chancellor in history, but that of all the cruel things they have done, this is by far the most vicious. She was right.
The voice of ordinary people has been heard in this debate, but it must also be reflected in the votes in the Division Lobby tonight. I particularly urge the party of Lloyd George and Gladstone not to vote for a policy that even the party of Thatcher would have shrunk from in the 1980s. It is the duty of all Members to avoid causing unnecessary suffering to nearly 700,000 people by opposing this cruel tax in a strong, clear vote tonight.