Kingsmill Massacre Inquest

Steve Baker Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First of all, may I thank Mr Speaker and the Table Office for allowing and facilitating this debate? It is with sadness, but also with determination and commitment, that I bring this matter to the House. I have spoken to the Minister of State, who I am pleased to see in his place; I gave him my speech beforehand and told him some of the things that I am asking for. With that purpose, we try to move forward to address these issues.

The debate refers to an event that took place 48 years ago. The reason it has taken so long is that the inquest happened only about two or three weeks ago. Although I asked for an urgent question on the Monday after that, I am very pleased to have this Adjournment debate.

This date is perhaps a poignant one because we understand that the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 has come into effect, which should mean the end of the probing of legacy issues. However, I am aware that the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland has said that her remit is to continue investigating former police officers for a further year. I am not sure why that remit continues, because people seeking truth and justice, including about Kingsmill and in other avenues, have been told that the date is passing. That is one of the questions that I have asked the Minister, and perhaps he could respond to it later.

It would appear that the vilification of the Royal Ulster Constabulary is to continue, with funding available, and I find that difficult to understand. My party—and, I believe, all Opposition parties—opposed the 2023 Act in its entirety, including on state bodies. My view was that the Government were seeking to cease any Police Ombudsman cases. I am afraid that that question must be answered, because there is an anomaly and a discrepancy there. Those who loved ones at Kingsmill and elsewhere must have their questions answered.

The Kingsmill massacre lives in the annals of history, along with the Darkley gospel hall attack, as the pinnacle of evil intention. There is absolutely no doubt about that in my mind or the minds of people outside this Chamber who are watching the debate. I want to give some details about what took place, because I think that they will illustrate the evilness of man.

The massacre took place on 5 January 1976, just after 5.30 pm. A red Ford Transit minibus was carrying textile workers home from their work along the rural road to Bessbrook. As the bus cleared the rise of a hill, it was stopped by a man in combat uniform standing on the road and flashing a torch. The workers assumed they were being stopped and searched by the British Army. As the bus stopped, eleven gunmen in combat uniform and with blackened faces emerged from the hedges. A man with a pronounced English accent—perhaps that put the bus driver at ease—began talking. He ordered the workers to get out of the bus and to line up facing it with their hands on the roof. He then asked, “Who is the Catholic in the bus?” Fearing that the gunmen were loyalists who had come to kill their Catholic colleague, his workmates tried to stop him from identifying himself. However, when Hughes stepped forward the gunman told him: “Get down the road and don’t look back.” The lead gunman then said, “Right,” and the others immediately opened fire on the workers. The eleven men were shot—[Interruption.]

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding us of just how wicked those events were, and for the passion with which he represents his constituents on these issues. I am clear that those were not the actions of soldiers in a war; they were the dishonourable crimes of cowardly terrorists. It is a matter of great regret that they have not expressed contrition or remorse, and that they did not confess to those crimes and suffer the justice that they were owed.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for that intervention.

The eleven men were shot at very close range with automatic rifles, which included Armalites. It is clear that 10 men were murdered because they were Protestants —that is what it was about. [Interruption.] A total of 136 rounds were fired in less than a minute. The men were shot at waist height and fell to the ground. Some fell on top of each other, either dead or wounded. When the initial burst of gunfire stopped, the gunmen reloaded their weapons. The order was given to “Finish them off”—in other words, no survivors—and another burst of gunfire was fired into the heaped bodies of the workmen. One of the gunmen also walked among the dying men and shot each of them in the head with a pistol as they lay on the ground. Such horror; such barbarity; such evil.

Ten of the men died at the scene; I will name those 10, if I can. They were John Bryans, 46 years of age; Robert Chambers, 19 years of age; Reginald Chapman, 25 years of age; Walter Chapman, 23 years of age; Robert Freeburn, 50 years of age; Joseph Lemmon, 46 years of age; John McConville, 20 years of age; James McWhirter, 58 years of age; Robert Walker, 46 years of age; and Kenneth Worton, 24 years of age. Alan Black, who was only 32 at the time, was the only one who survived. He had been shot 18 times, and one of the bullets had grazed his head. He said:

“I didn’t even flinch because I knew if I moved there would be another one”—

only that time, it would not have grazed his head, but would have killed him. After carrying out the shooting, the gunmen calmly walked away. Shortly after, a married couple came upon the scene of the killings and began praying beside the victims.

Those are the undisputed facts of the case. However, what the inquiry has found is what was first suggested by the Historical Enquiries Team investigation in 2011: that although the IRA was supposedly on ceasefire at the time, it was in fact the Provisional IRA that carried out the atrocity. The coroner said in his findings:

“The attack was carried out by the IRA operating under the authority of the Army Council which had, in April 1975, given wide authorisation to IRA units”.

It was sanctioned at the highest level by IRA terrorist scumbags.

However, the coroner failed to name the three known IRA terrorist individuals who carried out the killings, who are now deceased themselves. He should have done so; it was common knowledge, but for the purposes of the coroner’s report, they should have been named. I think it is important that that is put on record: he failed to name and shame at least three known individuals, now themselves deceased. Those names were available in various media outlets, including the BBC.

Eleven automatic weapons were used to kill those 10 Protestant workmen. Those weapons were linked to 40 other serious republican terrorist crimes over a 15-year period, including the murder of two paratroopers in 1974 and the killing of Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and Superintendent Bob Buchanan in 1989. The coroner’s report further found that the organisation of the attack was planned well in advance in the Republic of Ireland. I have spoken to the Minister of State, and he knows that I am going to ask about this: the excuse within the findings, that the gardaí were not asked for information that they held at the time, is completely untenable. It further makes a mockery of the current legal proceedings and the Government’s legacy legislation that this clear evidence of the gardaí’s unwillingness to help with investigations, then and now, is so blatant. What police organisation would say, “You didn’t ask us for the information, so therefore we’ll not give it to you”? Police organisations—in this case, the Garda Síochána— should have worked alongside the Royal Ulster Constabulary and ensured that all the evidence they had was made available, but it clearly was not. There are questions to ask in relation to that.

The other thing that concerns me greatly—this is the second part of the questions that the Kingsmill families are asking—is that the coroner refused to disclose information contained in secret files provided to him by the security forces in closed hearings. The three people who carried out the attack had on-the-run certificates given to them so that they could get away with their past crimes. It grieves me greatly to have to record the heartache and pain that those families feel because some of those people have got off. Why and how could that be the case?

There is another point I want to raise with the Minister, and it is really important to do so simply because there are just so many questions to be asked. The findings omit any discourse on the perpetrators, when it was said in south Armagh at the time that the dogs on the street knew who had carried out this atrocity—the Kingsmill massacre—with the murder of 10 innocent Protestant people. Indeed, it is widely held that the perpetrators carry on-the-run letters. Some elected Members have publicly joked—I can think of one in particular who joked with loaves of Kingsmill bread on the anniversary. The families do not laugh: they carry the pain. Some of the families wonder why the investigation of this massacre has received nothing like the results of other investigations that have resulted in prosecutions.

I make the point to the Minister of State, whom I spoke to beforehand: why is it that this was planned in the Republic of Ireland and was carried out from the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland, and those people were able to cross the border with impunity and then the Garda Síochána did not seem to do anything about it. The Minister of State will know my own personal case, and indeed everyone in this House probably knows it. My cousin Kenneth was murdered by the IRA as well—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I am glad to respond to today’s debate on a subject that is as ever, as we have seen, very painful and difficult. The Government recognise that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has shown, the victims are people who feel. They are people who grieve and as my hon. Friend—he is my hon. Friend—has vividly illustrated, the scars run deep and the pain that people suffer, even today, is very great and vivid. We certainly recognise that. People want facts and they want justice. I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for giving people voice today. He has done it with great skill, authenticity and passion. It is worth saying if he will allow me—I hope he will forgive me —that he is a strong and courageous man. I know that, and I myself feel that I reflect some of the passion that he does, even though I can never quite feel it.

I lived through the troubles as a boy, and as a young Royal Air Force officer in the ‘90s. Since I was on fast jets I was never posted to Northern Ireland, but I did have to check under my car every time I got in it in the ‘90s. People were shot dead—people who perhaps looked like me because we had short hair and looked military. I have not suffered losses as my hon. Friend has, and any of us who have any reason to consider the troubles and what they meant, must in great humility acknowledge the suffering of those who lost those they loved. Indeed, we have to acknowledge the contribution of those who served to defend us from great evils, about which he has elaborated.

I hope that today I will be able to answer my hon. Friend’s questions, and I am extremely grateful for advance sight of his remarks. I believe I will be able to satisfy him in at least some regard, and if I am not able to, I will be glad to meet him and discuss matters further. I come first to the findings of the inquest. The Kingsmill murders, in which the Provisional IRA shot dead 10 Protestant workmen and left one severely injured, is an appalling example of the pain and suffering inflicted on civilians during the troubles. We must never forget that it was the civilian population who suffered most in terms of lives lost from that period of violence, with close to 1,900 people killed. The victims and families of Kingsmill, including the sole survivor of the attack, Mr Alan Black, have fought for many decades to get information and accountability from those responsible.

The coroner for the inquest delivered clear and detailed findings, including: that Kingsmill was a horrific and overtly sectarian atrocity committed by the IRA under the authority of the Army Council, and the attack had absolutely no justification; that the attack had been planned well in advance, and an attack of such scale required a significant amount of planning; that the attack occurred in the aftermath of, and ostensibly as a response to the Reavey and O’Dowd murders, but the reality is that it had been planned long before they took place.

The coroner also said that the rumours concerning the involvement of Captain Robert Nairac in the Kingsmill attack are entirely false, and I would like to quote from the Judicial Communications Office:

“The Coroner was entirely satisfied that Captain Nairac had no role whatsoever in the Kingsmill atrocity. He said:

‘Captain Robert Nairac was a highly decorated soldier, and his memory is ill-served by those who persist in rumour mongering concerning his involvement in Kingsmill. Moreover, the false accusation serves to distract from the proper attribution of responsibility for those who carried out the attack. Rumours concerning the involvement of Captain Robert Nairac in the Kingsmill attack are entirely false.’”

The coroner also said that the attack was, at least in part, planned in Ireland. The border between Northern Ireland and Ireland was “exploited by terrorists” and allowed for

“planning, training, organisation, weapons storage and retreat at a safe physical and legal distance from the authorities that would be faced with investigating terrorist acts in Northern Ireland”.

Despite these findings I acknowledge, with regret, that there will be some unanswered questions for the families. That is unfortunately often the case in what are complex, sensitive, and decades-old troubles-related cases. One key reason why such questions remain unanswered in this case is what the coroner described as

“the absence of any disclosure or evidence from those who caused the deaths”.

The coroner said that the inquest

“did not receive disclosure from any individual concerned in the attack, nor their organisation, nor their political representatives.”

In fact, numerous calls to assist the inquest were met with silence. As a result, despite the savagery of the attack, the coroner found that there has been

“no acknowledgement by the IRA of the utter wrongness of the atrocity, its impact on those bereaved or the damage caused to the entire community”.

As we look forward to an amazing period of opportunity for Northern Ireland ahead of us, with the Executive restored and performing extremely well, there is a great role to be played as we move towards reconciliation by people who have the opportunity to express contrition and remorse. It is extremely difficult to forgive someone who claims that their actions were necessary and that they were soldiers in a war. They were not; they committed acts of terrorism, as this incident clearly illustrates. I encourage everyone involved to express contrition and remorse, to seek forgiveness and to help Northern Ireland to move on. That is in everyone’s interests, whatever their view on the constitutional question.

The hon. Gentleman asked me about the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and letters of comfort. To address his point about the ombudsman’s work, I will provide clarification on what investigative bodies can still deliver. Section 38 of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 specifically prohibits the commencement or continuation of any troubles-related criminal investigation from 1 May 2024, apart from those that will be conducted by the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery. That remains the case for all investigative bodies, including the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.

In the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 (Commencement No. 2 and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2024, which we laid yesterday, we included a transitional provision to clarify that in cases where an investigation had been completed prior to yesterday, 1 May, and only final administrative tasks remained outstanding, which may include activities such as report writing, family engagement or publication, they may be retained and completed by their original owner, but no further investigative work may now be done, except by the ICRIR in relation to troubles-era offences, and that includes the ombudsman. The transitional provision applies to any body that had such outstanding final administrative tasks on 1 May 2024, including Operation Kenova, the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.

[Jim Shannon]

The issue for the families is that they are aware that the Garda Síochána had information pertinent to this atrocity—this massacre—of 10 innocents. The question that they are asking and that I am asking as a Member of Parliament, which I hope the Minister of State can respond to, is about evidence not available before that is available now. It could have a determining impact on decisions. I know I also asked on behalf of the families for a public inquiry, but if all the information and evidence that should have been available, but was not, is available now, it could put a different stain or paint a different colour on what happened. It could lead to those who were responsible being held accountable.

[Mr Baker]

I believe I will be able to cover all those points that the hon. Gentleman has raised as I go through my remarks. I hope you will not mind my saying, Mr Deputy Speaker, that we are not short of time. It is worth, for the hon. Gentleman and those watching, my giving a proper answer. I hope to do that, and I will certainly take further interventions from him as we go on.

In relation to alleged on-the-run letters in the hands of perpetrators, the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) set out the Government’s position on the on-the-runs scheme fully in her statement to the House of Commons on 9 September 2014. That followed detailed consideration of the report by Lady Justice Hallett, which was published in July 2014. In her statement, the then Secretary of State was clear that the on-the-runs scheme was at an end and there was no basis for any reliance on letters received by so-called on-the-runs under the scheme. During legislative passage of the legacy Act, the Government again confirmed that position. I do not know who did or did not receive on-the-run letters. I will come on to that matter in a moment, but it will now be an operational matter for the ICRIR to consider. It is not something on which I can elaborate further.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I will, but I will talk about the ICRIR straight away.

[Jim Shannon]

If the responsibility falls on that body, is it in order to ask it to clarify the matter of the on-the-runs letters? That was clearly not done in the coroner’s report, but the families indicate clearly that it did have them.

[Mr Baker]

I would be grateful if families made reference to the ICRIR. Later, I shall publish a link to its website, which speaks about investigations. I have had a good look at the website in preparing for the debate—I will come on to that—and I will send that link to my hon. Friend, so that he can share it with people. Yes, people should certainly make a reference, and I hope that the ICRIR will feel able to satisfy them, but he will know that it is independent of Ministers, so that is not a matter for me, but for the commission.

I believe that Members of the House will share the Government’s disappointment that the inquest could not obtain the co-operation it desired from those implicated in, or with knowledge about, the atrocity, and who may have been able to provide additional information for the families involved. The Government have long recognised that truly effective information recovery requires the co-operation of the various different actors during the troubles. That is exactly why the new Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery is supported by both a legislative requirement for full disclosure by the state, and by powers to compel witnesses to provide evidence. I am pleased that the ICRIR commenced its functions on 1 May, as expected.

Those powers mean that the independent commission will have the tools that it needs to obtain as much information as possible for individuals and families. In fact, the Northern Ireland High Court recently found that the disclosure powers held by the commission were not only compliant with the state’s international obligations, but could improve on current inquests mechanisms. Individuals suspected of holding information that might be pertinent to a review by the commission will now be required to co-operate with the commission or risk a significant sanction. Refusal to comply with a notice of disclosure by the commission is subject to a penalty notice of up to £5,000.

I turn to remarks by Peter Sheridan, the commissioner for investigations. In an article released by PA Media titled, “Chances of prosecutions from new legacy body ‘vanishingly small’”, Mr Sheridan said:

“I have heard across the board about how justice stops on the first of May. Actually, if people read the information, the opposite is true. I, as the commissioner for investigations, have the ability to do criminal justice-style investigations and report to the prosecution service either in England and Wales or here in Northern Ireland where we find evidence available.”

He further said:

“I want to be absolutely honest with victims and survivors on what is a vanishingly small possibility around criminal justice prosecutions. Not that there isn’t still hope, there could be evidence available that is enough to prosecute.

But he also explained:

“If you take Kenova, £40 million, eight years work and no prosecutions. So we have to be honest with people of what’s achievable about cases that are 20, 30, 40, 50 years old.”

That is the situation we face, and that is why we have instituted the commission. It will have the opportunity to engage in culpability investigations.

My hon. Friend and the families are keen for people to be named. Culpability investigations are described on the website. I understand my hon. Friend’s concern regarding the naming of individuals. It is important to note that there should be consideration of many issues, and judgments made, including about the safety of life. Such considerations will remain relevant as the process moves forward.

The ICRIR will seek to establish all the circumstances of the death or other harmful conduct, using its full range of statutory powers, including the ability to compel witnesses. The commission will, at the conclusion of its review, write a final report. It will make findings, on the balance of probabilities, on issues such as who and what was to blame; importantly, it will answer specific questions asked by families, where that is possible. However, the content of reports is an operational matter for the ICRIR. It is independent of Ministers, as is right and proper. I am confident that many people out there would not believe Ministers, so it is important that the ICRIR is independent. I encourage people to look at the website, and I will tweet the link later. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will feel able to share it with families.

Turning to the Irish Government, one of the coroner’s other key findings—the exploitation of the border in the planning, execution or aftermath of criminal activity, not just in this case but throughout the entirety of the troubles—is well established, as the hon. Gentleman indicated. As he will know well, there are many troubles-related cases in which criminal activity is suspected to have taken place across jurisdictions. For individuals and families who are the victims of such cases, effective information recovery will require the provision of information by the Irish authorities.

One such case is the Omagh bombing. The UK Government continue to press the Irish Government to co-operate fully with the inquiry on that, and, if necessary, to establish similar processes in Ireland, to facilitate the full provision of answers for the families affected. I repeat that invitation to the Irish Government today. They are very welcome to establish processes for co-operation with the commission, to the end that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Where they have information that could help with information discovery and reconciliation, I encourage them to work with the commission.

To date, the Irish Government have declined to commit to co-operating with the commission to facilitate the provision of information to families who request it. The recent Northern Ireland High Court judgment found the commission to be operationally independent from Government and capable of conducting reviews in accordance with the state’s obligations under articles 2 and 3 of the European convention on human rights. We hope that that will lead to further engagement by the Irish Government with the commission. The approach taken by the Irish Government to co-operating with the Kingsmill inquest—the coroner expressed gratitude for the co-operation of the Irish authorities—should act as a useful template for future co-operation with both the Omagh bombing inquiry and the ICRIR.

I would like to put on record that the relationship between the UK Government and the Irish Government is, today, one of robust friendship. We are friends and partners, not rivals or opponents. We are going forward together in a spirit of constructive co-operation on a wide range of matters. I am proud to have played some part in making that possible. This would be a great time for our two nations to co-operate in detail on issues of the past, to help lay to rest various suspicions or expose wrongdoing, and so make progress.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for that positive outlook. I brought this Adjournment debate on behalf of the families who lost 10 loved ones, and the survivor Alan Black. Could the Minister’s answer and the correspondence be conveyed to the Taoiseach down south and the necessary Minister there, with the message that we seek justice for the Kingsmill massacre families, to ensure that after 48 years, their case is answered?

[Mr Baker]

I would be astonished if the Irish Government were not following this debate live. We have friends in the embassy of Ireland and in the Government of Ireland whom we respect, and with whom we wish to continue to develop a friendship and co-operation. The relationship between the UK and Ireland is fundamental. For too long, we failed to look west, but we should have done. As is often said, one of the problems we face is that the Irish never forget the history, and the English never remember. We need to make the effort to remember, and to go forward as friends in a spirit of co-operation. It is precisely because we respect Ireland and its status as an independent nation making its own choices that we can really only plead, encourage and invite it to join us in working with the ICRIR.

The hon. Gentleman made the case on why An Garda Síochána was not forthcoming. I will just say that that will have been heard by the Irish Government, and I think he makes a powerful case for further co-operation. The Garda will have records that may assist in answering the kinds of questions that he raises. It is in their interests to defend their excellent reputation. In the interests of defending themselves, the records should be shared. I certainly wish to offer no criticism.

In closing, I express my sincere hope that the conclusion of the long-running Kingsmill inquest will bring some form of comfort to the families affected. Where questions remain, I urge the families seeking answers to make use of the powers of the new commission. The ICRIR is led by Sir Declan Morgan KC and staffed by dedicated individuals experienced in working on legacy and reconciliation issues, and the Government have full confidence in its ability to deliver for victims and survivors, including those affected by the awful, appalling and unjustifiable actions of the IRA at Kingsmill in January 1976.

Question put and agreed to.

Windsor Framework Implementation Regulations

Steve Baker Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2024 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

The Government have today laid the Windsor Framework (Implementation) Regulations 2024. The regulations will enable the Government to give direction to Northern Ireland Departments when delivering aspects of the Windsor framework and the commitments made in the “Safeguarding the Union” Command Paper. These include the requirement to eliminate any physical checks when goods move within the UK internal market system, except those conducted by UK authorities and required as part of a risk-based or intelligence-led approach to tackling criminality, abuse of the scheme, smuggling and disease risks. These regulations will come into force on 12 April 2024. The Government will publish guidance and set out initial directions to fulfil its commitments swiftly thereafter.

The Government first briefed the political parties in Northern Ireland on our intention to take forward such legislation last September, building on the powers taken in January 2023 to deliver sanitary and phytosanitary facilities for goods going to the EU through the “red lane”. This approach reflects the fact that these are obligations which arose from an agreement reached by the Government, and which ultimately fall to the Government to uphold. It would not be appropriate to leave them solely to the Northern Ireland Executive to discharge. We have worked closely with the DAERA Minister and his officials to ensure that this is a targeted and specific approach. We are grateful for the close working and can confirm that the guidance that will be published pursuant to the regulations will ensure that only a targeted subset of agri-food matters focused on the movement of goods from GB-NI will be subject to the Secretary of State direction and control powers.

This is the latest step in fulfilling the Government’s commitments made in “Safeguarding the Union”, which led to the subsequent restoration of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland. The Government have taken steps to ensure the swift delivery of commitments made in the command paper, and we remain focused on taking forward the remaining provisions as quickly as possible:

The Windsor Framework (Constitutional Status of Northern Ireland) Regulations 2024 are now in force affirming Northern Ireland’s place in the Union, prohibiting the agreement of any new protocol, and amending section 7A to underline that its operation is properly subject to democratic consent and scrutiny through the mechanisms that the Windsor Framework establishes. They require that a Minister in charge of a Bill must assess whether or not that Bill has an impact on trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and make provision in law to ensure that an independent review following this year’s democratic consent vote proceeds swiftly and its report is considered fully.

The Windsor Framework (Unfettered Access and Internal Market) Regulations 2024 are also now in force, strengthening and future-proofing unfettered access for Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK’s internal market. The regulations establish the legal basis for robust statutory guidance to public authorities on recognising the importance of Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom and its internal market, and concentrate the benefits of unfettered access on Northern Ireland businesses.

The East-West Council will meet on 26 March to discuss a range of proposals to boost investment and skills.

Working groups on veterinary medicines and horticulture will have met by the end of the month.

We will shortly publish further guidance on medicines to help enable around 9,400 medicines currently on GB licences to be licensed on a UK-wide basis from 1 January 2025.

The Government will shortly be issuing statutory guidance on how public authorities must have regard to the importance of Northern Ireland’s place in the UK’s internal market when implementing the Windsor framework.

The Government will also continue to promote, support and defend the significant benefits that dual market access provides to Northern Ireland. For example, we have made clear that we absolutely reject calls by those who oppose devolved government to ban the movement of live animals from Northern Ireland. That would have ended the movement of an estimated around 3,500 cattle, 17,000 pigs and 337,000 sheep to Ireland in 2022, and would represent a devastating blow to farming communities across Northern Ireland. We have offered to establish a sectoral round table to consider analysis on the impact of the proposed trade ban, consistent with our wider approach on establishing working groups on veterinary medicines and horticulture, but this invitation has not to date been taken up by any of those proposing the ban.

The Government will remain focused in our efforts to fulfil the full range of commitments made, so as to safeguard the Union and build a brighter and even more prosperous future for Northern Ireland as part of it in the time ahead.

[HCWS364]

Business without Debate

Steve Baker Excerpts

Friday 15th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hon. Members]

Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 22 March.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. If I may, I will take a moment to recognise that the United Nations has made today International Day to Combat Islamophobia. The Government condemn anti-Muslim hatred, just as we condemn antisemitism and all forms of racism and hatred, and I would like to put on the record that it is a matter of profound regret to us all that people are still judged by their identity, when they should be judged by their conduct and their character.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

As the Minister will understand, that is not a point of order for the Chair, but he has put his point on the record.

Public Procurement (British Goods and Services) Bill

Steve Baker Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 15th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

I am delighted to bring this important but focused Bill to the House. It would make minor amendments to both the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 and the Procurement Act 2023 to encourage greater uptake of British products in UK Government contracts.

The Bill aims to increase transparency and raise the importance of the origin of goods and services, animal welfare standards and environmental impact, and the standard of employment in procurement decisions. It achieves this by requiring the contracting body to publish its data, demonstrating how these areas are met in the contracts awarded. In 2014, my ten-minute rule Bill on publishing the gender pay gap for organisations employing more than 250 staff made a similar obligation. First blocked, then adopted by the Government, it has revolutionised transparency and equality within those businesses. I hope that the Government will be similarly pragmatic when it comes to this Bill and give it a safe passage.

Every year, the UK Government spend more than £300 billion on public procurement, which accounts for almost a third of all public expenditure. However, despite this huge figure, the Spend Network’s analysis found that big corporations win 90% of the contracts that are deemed suitable for small and medium-sized businesses. As a result, SMEs are missing out on around £30 billion-worth of public contracts annually. That is £30 billion that could be going to British businesses.

SMEs are the beating heart of our economy, accounting for 99% of businesses in the UK and 61% of employment, which equates to 16.7 million jobs. It is therefore shocking that they are consistently missing out on so many suitable public procurement contracts. In addition, a worrying number of contracts are awarded to foreign suppliers. Research from Tussell found that in 2020 alone the public sector spent £18 billion with overseas suppliers rather than supporting their UK counterparts.

The Public Accounts Committee’s report, “Competition in public procurement” published in December, concluded that the Government

“has not demonstrated that it has consistently used its purchasing power to support local and national policies and objectives, or to drive healthy and competitive markets, including buying from SMEs.”

It also found that the Government have

“not been fully capturing data on procurement, much less using analytics from collected data to draw insights on how competition in public procurement is operating within government and give context to purchasing decisions.”

That has to change, and my Bill can do that.

In its report “Public Sector Procurement of Food” from April 2021, the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee rightly stated that public procurement

“has the potential to create significant business and growth opportunities through increased participation for small and medium-sized enterprises”—

as well as—

“improving the public sector’s access to SMEs’ creativity and innovation”.

However, crucially, it noted that SMEs have long faced difficulties in accessing public procurement opportunities.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

The hon. Lady makes a very good case, and I think she knows that the Government have quite a lot of common ground with her policy intent. She may know that officials in the Cabinet Office are preparing for a new national procurement policy statement to set out the Government’s strategic priorities. May I offer her and her task group, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince), in relation to food, an opportunity to meet officials and, if necessary, the Minister? I would be very grateful if she took up that opportunity, because we would like her expertise and that of the group. As we have only recently legislated, it is difficult for the Government to support her Bill, so I hope she will take up the offer of that meeting.

[Sarah Champion]

The Minister, as ever, is trying to find a solution which benefits us both—that is what I am trying to do with the Bill—so I absolutely take up his offer and thank him for it. I will talk more about the working group at the end, but I have brought together a group of industry professionals. We all want to see British businesses getting a fair slice of the £300 billion pie, because we want our businesses to flourish, so I thank him for that offer. I have one more Select Committee report, this time from the Defence Committee in July 2023, which simply stated that the UK defence procurement system is

“broke—and it’s time to fix it”.

I welcome the Minister’s offer.

To tackle these long-recognised issues within the UK Government procurement system, my Bill aims to: back British businesses for public contracts; champion the UK’s world-class manufacturing and food production; increase the visibility of British food procured by the public sector; encourage investment and jobs created in towns and cities across the country; improve transparency around contracts awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises; and, just as importantly, recognise and reward good employment practices.

Let me give some context to demonstrate the need, right now, for the Bill. The UK is in a recession and has experienced years of stagnant economic growth. The number of companies going bust in 2023 hit a 30-year high. More than 25,000 UK company insolvencies were registered last year. Those figures show that one in 186 active firms went bust in 2023. That grim economic outlook is compounded by the fact that many SMEs feel shut out of the public procurement system. Taxpayers’ money is being spent with big multinationals and foreign suppliers, when as much as possible it should be spent on supporting British businesses and jobs, as other countries do with their own industries.

The Government have long argued that the EU had rules preventing them from prioritising British businesses. Many saw Brexit as an opportunity for more taxpayers’ money to be spent with British suppliers. We were told that British businesses would be first in the queue for UK Government contracts once we left the EU. The 2019 Conservative party manifesto even stated, with regard to food procurement:

“When we leave the EU, we will be able to encourage the public sector to ‘Buy British’ to support our farmers and reduce environmental costs.”

This has simply not happened. Now is high time for some of the benefits voters were promised from Brexit to come to pass. My Bill, if the Government accept it, would deliver more contracts to British businesses.

This is not a new issue. Since my election in 2012, I have been continuously highlighting how the UK Government need to do more to support British steelmakers through public procurement. The UK steel industry employs almost 40,000 people directly, with another 50,000 jobs supported through the supply chain. It also directly contributes £2.9 billion to the UK economy and adds £3.8 billion indirectly through supply chains. My constituency of Rotherham is a hub for steel production. We are incredibly proud of that heritage. Liberty Steel employs 900 people locally and supports the employment of many more workers throughout the steel chain. We make unique, speciality green steel much valued around the world, especially in aerospace. Despite this expertise and the high-quality steel that Liberty and other steelmakers produce, our steel industry still needs Government support. Let me be clear that I am not talking about handouts; I am talking about public contracts. UK Steel analysis of the 2023 steel pipeline report found that of the £603 million-worth of steel procured by government in the last financial year, 2022-23, only £365 million-worth was UK-produced. Furthermore, the British Constructional Steelwork Association analysis of steel used in the HS2 project found that only 58% of steel contracts were awarded to British suppliers, despite the British steel industry having the capacity to have carried out 100% of the work.

I welcome the recent introduction of the UK steel safeguards and the fact that UK Government Departments are now required to report past buying and future purchase pipelines of UK-made steel bought by the public purse. Those measures, particularly the reporting of where the steel is procured from in projects, are designed to encourage the uptake of UK-produced steel. The mandatory reporting model is a good template for other industries and Departments, and I welcome it. My Bill takes that mechanism and seeks to use it to achieve similar results across the economy, compelling contracting authorities to publish where they are procuring from, and to encourage the uptake of goods and services from British suppliers.

Let me give another example. I am sure hon. Members are aware that the public procurement system is failing our great British farmers. I strongly believe we must support our local food producers by ensuring that we buy, sell, make and grow more of our food, entrenching Britain’s reputation as a beacon for quality food, high standards and ethical animal treatment. The UK public sector spends about £2.4 billion a year procuring food for organisations such as schools, hospitals and the armed forces. That accounts for approximately 5.5% of UK food sector sales. Despite that level of spending, there is no accurate measure of how much food the public sector procures from British farmers. My Bill will address that.

The British public support buying British. The online supermarket Ocado reported that 87% of its customers considered it important to support British farmers, with searches for British produce on its website up by 77% year on year—

St Patrick’s Day: Irish Diaspora in the UK

Steve Baker Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma. Alas, not every debate in the House inspires the same spirit of collegiality and a shared celebration as this one. It is a sign of its quality and pleasure that the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Dame Siobhain McDonagh) has stayed in the Chamber to listen to the rest of it. I am grateful to her for chairing the earlier part.

It is a real joy for me to respond. I thank the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Dame Karen Bradley) for securing this timely debate to celebrate St Patrick’s day and the contribution of the Irish diaspora, which hon. Members have talked about so skilfully today. The hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) began her speech by talking about St Patrick being a traveller between these isles. As far as I am aware, that is my only connection to Ireland: I grew up in Cornwall and the Saints’ Way from Fowey to Padstow was—perhaps mythically—a route trodden by St Patrick. As a Celtic Christian myself, it gives me some pleasure to respond to this debate.

I had the pleasure of travelling to Northern Ireland for some years before my appointment to the Department, and since then I have been grateful for the opportunity to travel both to Northern Ireland and the Republic. As the hon. Member for Putney said, many people will get to be just a little bit Irish for one day only, and she is right that that speaks volumes for our integration. Like her, I have been made extremely welcome in Northern Ireland and in the Republic.

We are fortunate that we have robust and productive forums for co-operation and dialogue, which we attend alongside the Irish Government. Since being in post, I have attended three plenary sessions of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly in Cavan, Jersey and Kildare, and four meetings of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, as well as the annual British Irish Association conference. Those forums are critical to our formal friendship.

I turn to the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands. She was right to pay tribute to our friend James Brokenshire—a great Northern Ireland Secretary. I also recognise what my right hon. Friend said: it is one of the greatest honours to be a Minister for the Northern Ireland Office and for Northern Ireland. I particularly recognise the welcome we are extended. She also mentioned the depth of hope and expectation placed on us. The whole debate and particularly that contribution remind us of the importance of politics and how each of us conducts it.

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend’s work as co-chair of BIPA. She has made me very welcome—indeed, she made it clear that if I did not attend she would be making me very unwelcome, probably in the House. I also pay tribute to Brendan Smith, who has made me extremely welcome. I am grateful to him for that.

I have just realised that I unfortunately skipped past the response that I owe the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles. I really enjoyed listening to her speech and she was absolutely right to acknowledge the hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) as a champion of our relationship with Ireland and she has also given me guidance along the way. The hon. Member for Salford and Eccles gave us a remarkable and magisterial survey of the immense contribution of the Irish diaspora to the UK. I hope she will not mind me saying that I was surprised and very pleased to hear my late Conservative association president, Sir William McAlpine, cited. She will understand that he, as the most Tory of Tories, would have been both honoured and slightly amused that the hon. Lady cited him. Of course, Tony Lloyd moved a similar motion in 2022. As we have heard today, he is much missed on both sides of the House, and no doubt on both sides of the Irish sea. I congratulate the hon. Lady on her wide-ranging, witty and touching speech, which I much enjoyed.

I will now turn to our new and, if I may say so, already reset relationship with Ireland. I am very grateful to the former Tánaiste, Simon Coveney, to the current Tánaiste, Micheál Martin, and to the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, for their continued efforts to improve, further and strengthen British-Irish relations over the last few years. The Secretary of State and I have put a great deal of effort into that relationship, which I believe has paid dividends. I will return to the issue of legacy, which I do not propose to elaborate on further today, but it is important that we make progress for the sake of all the people on the island of Ireland and, indeed, across Great Britain.

I am pleased that the bilateral relationship is strengthening, and I agree with Micheál Martin’s view that it is fundamental to both the United Kingdom and Ireland that we have a great relationship of equals, which we can carry forward in a spirit of family. To that end, I want to pay tribute to Mr Martin Fraser, the Irish ambassador to the UK. I do not think he would mind me saying that he is a very able statesman and diplomat, who I have enjoyed working with immensely. He is a man of great humour but also great sincerity. While we were in the process of resetting our relations through the Windsor framework, he argued in a speech that this was always a family dispute, and that we were always going to get through it and make up. I think he was right in that, and it is a theme I would like to elaborate.

I would like to say a very deep and heartfelt thank you very much indeed to Mr Martin Fraser for all that he has done, as well as making a number of us welcome at the embassy last night for a few halves of Guinness, which some of us are still recovering from. He is ably supported by the deputy head of mission, Orla McBreen, and I was grateful that she attended the earlier part of this debate. In the interests of Anglo-Irish relations, I ought not to repeat my claim that the stout produced by the Rebellion brewery in my constituency is better than Guinness, but it is possibly too late. I would certainly see that as a family disagreement that has been largely placed behind us, which I think is reflected in the spirit of the debate we have heard today.

The peoples of Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have a long and complex shared history, which has not always been easy, but we have realised that there is more we share than that which divides us. It is often said that the Irish never forget our shared history, and the English never remember. Alas, that is the case. I just want to put on record that I am very grateful to my friend, Éamon Ó Cuív, for his work in helping me to understand Irish history from the Irish perspective. He has been a great source of inspiration for the idea that this relationship could flourish in the future in a spirit of goodwill.

For many, the route taken from Ireland to the UK has been to seek work and opportunity, particularly in times of hardship. As an engineer myself, I am struck that many of our greatest civil engineering achievements are a standing monument to the efforts of so many Irish people who built this United Kingdom. The NHS is stronger for the contributions of many Irish nationals who serve here today and have done since its founding. The most recent statistics on this, in June 2023, showed that nearly 14,000 members of NHS staff were Irish, including doctors, nurses and support staff.

It is important to reflect on the great service and sacrifice of so many Irish people during the first world war, and like others I share the admiration for the laying of that wreath. Many have remarked that the post-war rebuilding and recovery of Britain would not have been possible without the efforts of Irish hands, and I am glad to pay tribute to the manifold contributions of the Irish diaspora as part of this debate.

I will now turn to the common travel area, which will be a great context for reflecting on the contributions we have heard from Members. The flow of people, energy and ideas between both islands continues unabated. Whether it is by inventing, leading or making, we continue to make one another richer in every sense of the word—economically, socially and culturally. That historic and close relationship has been enshrined in the common travel area arrangement, which has existed for over a century and is now also protected in statute. That special status enables citizens to live and work freely across both islands. The common travel area provides reciprocal rights to live, work, study and access health and welfare services. Those CTA protections reflect the unique nature of life on the island of Ireland.

The UK Government take seriously our commitments to protecting and upholding the common travel area. It is not hyperbole to say that the CTA is central to the UK and Ireland’s enduring social and cultural ties. In recognition of those close ties, I am delighted that the Government are supporting amendments to the British Citizenship (Northern Ireland) Bill, introduced by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), which would make it easier for people from Ireland who are resident in the UK to become British citizens.

I very much enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna). She is an absolutely formidable parliamentarian, as I remember from her first days in this House. She mentioned isolation and discrimination. It is a sad fact remembering how people were treated in the past—I am grateful that things are now very different. She mentioned that Ireland is a global cultural superpower, and of course she is absolutely right. I hope people will not mind me saying that of course Northern Ireland is a crucial part of the overall island’s cultural record. She particularly talked about the importance of embracing “or both”. I have seen that at work. It is important that we should be comfortable in who we are and in our identity, whichever part of the UK we live in and whatever our identity may be. That brings me to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton North East (Mark Logan).

My hon. Friend invited me to speak Ulster Scots, but I have to tell him that I am notorious for my poor language skills. Since I have established a reputation for being able to say Tánaiste—thank goodness I said it right that time—and Taoiseach, I do not think I should spoil my record my attempting any Irish today. I would be grateful if he would try to teach me some Ulster Scots later. He reminded me of when I went to the Discover Ulster-Scots Centre, where I met the CEO Ian Crozier— I do not think he would mind me saying this—and asked him, “What does being Ulster Scots mean to you?” After only the briefest pause, he said, “Everything,” and I could see the feeling that he had. For people like me—my parents were from Hampshire and I grew up in Cornwall, with no particular sense of it other than from growing up as a child in that place—it is important to recognise that for others, their identity is everything. We should ensure that we respect and embrace identity, and that, as the hon. Member for Belfast South said, we make it possible for people to be both/and.

My hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) requested that we fly the flag of St Patrick over Government buildings. I will certainly consider that request, but I have to tell him that I have lost too many friends in Unionism already to risk losing any more.

The hon. Member for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins) paid tribute to the large diaspora in her constituency. She explained the craic, for which I am grateful to her; she said it means, “Even when you lose, you still have a party”—I wonder if she has been bugging my kitchen table. I will leave it to others to work out what I am getting at. She mentioned St Brigid, and I am grateful to her for prompting me to put on record my admiration for the female leadership that I have seen in Northern Ireland. There is an amazing range of truly inspirational female leaders right across all sections of Northern Ireland, from promoting social capital and reconciliation between communities through to the highest levels of business. It has been really humbling and inspiring to meet those ladies. It is right that we remember St Brigid too.

The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) mentioned the Irish Cultural Centre and reminded us that we can have a good day out to see the paintings illustrating “Ulysses”. Perhaps the Irish-Scots drum might be taken along by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton North East.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North—

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

That’s not me.

[Mr Baker]

I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon?

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

West Dunbartonshire!

[Mr Baker]

I am so sorry; I do beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. I have a temporary Parliamentary Private Secretary, but he has become temporary in more than one way. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman unreservedly, but he made a very good and important speech, and I was grateful to hear it. I have often stood in Northern Ireland looking across to Donegal, and he reminds me that I should visit.

The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes) made a point about familial and ancient ties, and of course he is absolutely right. If English MPs have a fault, although they may be few, it is that too rarely we consider the importance of all parts of this United Kingdom. These past few months and years have been a reminder that every MP in this House and this United Kingdom should pay close attention to all parts of the United Kingdom, and indeed should remember the history that we have together. The hon. Gentleman mentioned poverty, and I remember with great sadness, sorrow and regret the impact of the famine on Ireland. He reminded me that “what we do in life, echoes in eternity”, as someone once said in a movie. We may not be able to set right the injustices of the past, but his speech reminded me that we can certainly avoid perpetuating injustices today and into the future. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the manner in which he set that out in his speech.

Economic ties between us have been elaborated on in the course of this debate. I just add that, in the four quarters to 2023, Ireland was the UK’s third largest export partner and the 10th largest source of imports. Beyond those statistics, those close economic ties are demonstrated by the contribution of Irish businesses to our economy, as pointed out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands. She may not have mentioned Kerrygold, but I was expecting her to mention it—

[Dame Karen Bradley]

I did.

[Mr Baker]

Did I miss it? She mentioned that Kerrygold is packaged in her constituency in Staffordshire, and another example is of course Guinness being packaged in Belfast and Runcorn. The impact of Irish people on UK public life has been profound, and I am very grateful that a number of Members set out how.

I was planning to mention two former British Prime Ministers, the Earl of Shelburne and the Duke of Wellington, but the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles beat me to it. I did have to check that those two Prime Ministers were not guilty of some crime against the Irish before I mentioned them, but I discovered that they were great champions of Catholic Emancipation—so for that I am very grateful. I also add the name of Edmund Burke, somebody from whom many of us have learned a great deal.

I also want to touch on the peace process. The anniversary of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement was a great thing to witness, and one of the things that it revealed was the immense good will for the island of Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland, from right across the world. People have invested a vast amount of their lives and careers into ensuring that Northern Ireland is peaceful and that the prospect of reconciliation can be held out.

I pay tribute to some individuals whom I have been privileged to meet in the course of the anniversary and some whom alas I could not. I want to refer to the relationship between Garrett FitzGerald and Margaret Thatcher leading to the Anglo-Irish agreement in 1985; the relationship between John Major and Albert Reynolds; and the robust collegiality between Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair, whose stalwart work secured the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. I want to mark the enormous contributions of the Irish Presidents Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese, who demonstrated valiant leadership during some of the darkest days when it seemed like the peace process might never come to pass. The UK Government are firmly committed to upholding and promoting the established structures created by the agreement to support the prosperity of the Irish people who want to strengthen their identity and culture as part of the wider family of nations that make up the UK.

Furthermore, the robust health of the strand 3 institutions reflects the depth of commitment from both Governments to our roles as co-guarantors of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. Far from being mere talking shops, these fora allow us, have allowed us, and will continue to allow us to have honest and constructive discussions, not only on the subjects on which our two Governments agree, but on those areas where we have disagreed, one of which was identified by the hon. Member for Belfast South. I am extremely grateful to all of the other UK Government Ministers who have come along to the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference; I know that that has been appreciated by the Government of Ireland.

For too long, of course, strand 3 stood alone as the only show in town, so I am delighted that, this time, as we approach St Patrick’s day, we can once again celebrate the full restoration of all three strands of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement through the North South Ministerial Council, through the upcoming meetings of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference and the British-Irish Council, and, of course, the fully-functioning Assembly and Executive. I particularly want to pay tribute to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister of the Executive for the inspirational leadership that they are providing to everyone in how they are coming together in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland.

Finally, I finish by reflecting that the familial relationship with Ireland is absolutely fundamental to the UK Government. It is so important to people across the UK. Many of us look forward to the annual St Patrick’s day celebrations, which showcase the contributions of Irish women and men. Some of those celebrations this year will include parades through the cities of Belfast, Cardiff, Glasgow, Liverpool and Leeds and, of course, at Trafalgar Square. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is looking forward to a hundred thousand welcomes in the US this week for the St Patrick’s day celebrations. It only remains for me to thank, as others have done, all those generations of Irish people who have contributed so much to help make this great country as great as it is, and to wish everyone here, and all those people looking forward to celebrating, a very happy St Patrick’s day.

Northern Ireland

Steve Baker Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I beg to move,

That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty welcoming the return of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, re-affirming the importance of upholding the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement 1998 in all its strands, acknowledging the foundational importance of the Acts of Union 1800, including the economic provisions under Article 6 of those Acts, and recognising that, consistent with section 23(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, executive power in Northern Ireland shall continue to be vested in His Majesty, and that joint authority is not provided for in the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement 1998 in respect of the UK and Irish Governments.

I say to the House, and particularly to the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would have wanted to be here to move the motion, but he is travelling as he returns from a regional Cabinet meeting, and he sends his apologies.

We have now seen the return of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland following the publication of the “Safeguarding the Union” Command Paper last month. I believe that I speak for the whole House in welcoming those extremely positive developments, as Northern Ireland had been without a devolved Government for two years. I take this opportunity to congratulate the First Minister, Michelle O’Neill, and, if I may, especially the Deputy First Minister, Emma Little-Pengelly, who, of course, we all know from her time in this House. I wish them both every success. If I may say so, I think the whole nation, which has been paying attention, will be astonished by the brilliance with which they are working together despite their differences on the constitutional question; I, for one, am absolutely delighted.

We have already seen what can be done when the political parties are back in government, working together to deliver for those who elect them. Aided by the £3.3 billion funding package from the UK Government, the Executive have already decided to allocated over £685 million to allow conversations to commence between employers and trade unions. The UK Government’s significant, fair and generous spending settlement will also allow the Northern Ireland Executive to stabilise public services, better manage public finances, increase opportunities for improved infrastructure and investment, and pave the way for the transformation of public services.

I very much look forward to working with the new First Minister, Deputy First Minister and all their ministerial colleagues to deliver those shared objectives, and I eagerly await the Executive’s sustainability plan for Northern Ireland’s finances, including proposals for revenue raising, following the Secretary of State’s discussions with the political parties on those issues at Hillsborough Castle before Christmas.

I move this Humble Address to welcome the return of devolution and further honour the Government’s commitment in the Command Paper to provide a mechanism for Parliament to affirm its commitment to the Acts of Union, and to outline that there is no basis in the Belfast agreement for joint authority arrangements with the Government of Ireland. The UK Government’s commitment to the Belfast agreement, in its totality and all its facets, is resolute and unfaltering.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

This Humble Address reads like a love letter to the DUP—I just caution the DUP not to get too comfortable, because I am not sure that it will be a forever love. A couple of weeks ago, the Secretary of State said in this House that we needed the majority “consent of both” the Unionist community and the nationalist community to achieve constitutional change in Ireland. I wrote to him after that asking him to correct the record, because, of course, we only need a simple majority to see constitutional change in Ireland. He wrote back to me correcting what he had said, but he has not corrected the record in this House. Will the Minister take this opportunity to do so, please?

[Mr Baker]

I will correct the record: all that is required is a simple majority, just as the hon. Gentleman says. I am sure that we all regret the confusion that has arisen. I will later in my speech address specifically some of the points that he has raised, but I will return them in due course if he will allow me.

The restoration of the strand 1 institutions is welcome news. I am hopeful that we will soon also see the North South Ministerial Council and other strand 2 implementation bodies returned to full operation, alongside the meetings of the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference that are already scheduled to take place in the coming months and which I have attended in the past. That three-stranded approach—that delicate and careful balance—honours the spirit and letter of the agreement, providing a fitting tribute to those brave men and women who, some 26 years ago, helped to deliver the agreement that is the bedrock of so much peace, stability and progress in Northern Ireland.

This Humble Address also rightly acknowledges the foundational importance of the Acts of Union 1800, including the economic provisions under article 6 of those Acts. The Government are clear that the new arrangements committed to in the Command Paper, including the UK internal market system, ensure the smooth flow of trade across the UK. As the House knows, we have already legislated to those ends.

The final part of this Humble Address relates to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland. As Unionists, it is important that this Government emphasise how much Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom is valued and respected, both in law and in practice. Nevertheless, our appreciation of Northern Ireland within the UK is set in the context of respecting the core principles and relationships at the heart of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. At the heart of that agreement is the principle of consent. That means that Northern Ireland will remain an integral part of the United Kingdom, with the Acts of Union and the economic rights under article 6 properly respected and protected in law and with the sovereignty of Parliament undiminished, ruling out joint authority between London and Dublin, which we will not countenance.

[John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

When I last asked him in the House, the Secretary of State assured us that this House can now legislate for VAT in Northern Ireland, which was a very welcome assurance. Can the Minister explain how far the EU can go in legislating for Northern Ireland if we in the Unionist community are not very happy with that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Baker]

I refer my right hon. Friend to the table on page 4 of the Command Paper, which answers his question somewhat more broadly. That table compares Northern Ireland to Ireland as an illustrative member state and Norway as a European economic area state, and goes through the ways in which the status of Northern Ireland, EU membership and EEA membership differ. Anyone looking at that table can see that Northern Ireland is in a completely different place.

When it comes to the specific issue of the extent to which Northern Ireland can be legislated for by the EU, I refer my right hon. Friend to the democratic consent mechanism for the overall arrangement—the first vote on which will take place later in the year—and also to the Stormont brake, to which we could return but which we have covered in previous debates. I have known my right hon. Friend very well for a number of years; I have followed his thoughts on this issue since some years before I was a Member, and I am reluctant to give him a very specific answer on the issue of VAT. I know he will have followed the details, and the last thing I want to do is give him an incorrect answer.

[John Redwood]

No, I have had an answer on that.

[Mr Baker]

If my right hon. Friend will agree, I would like to have a meeting with him, because I am very clear that the scope of law that can apply in Northern Ireland is that which is necessary to ensure the smooth flow of goods.

I have said before at this Dispatch Box that we were always going to have special arrangements for Northern Ireland. When I resigned from the then Government in 2018, the issue that I forced among our colleagues in the European Research Group was that of Northern Ireland. We wrote a paper that said that there would need to be alternative administrative and technical arrangements so that there could be an open border with the Republic of Ireland. We understood that there would be special arrangements. There was never going to be an open border with no arrangements to deal with it, and there was never going to be a hard border; it was always going to be necessary to do something unique and special in Northern Ireland.

As I have also said at this Dispatch Box, had this country gone forward with one united voice in accepting the referendum result, and had this country enjoyed the good quality of relations with Ireland and the EU that we enjoy today, we might have done better than leaving in place some EU law in Northern Ireland. I wish we had, but after all we have been through and the eight years it has taken to do it, I think that this settlement taken overall—the Windsor framework plus the Command Paper, including the Humble Address we are debating today—represents the moment to bank what I regard as a win and move forward constructively in the best interests of all the people of the UK, but also the people of the Republic of Ireland.

[John Redwood]

Let me reassure the Minister that the Secretary of State gave me a very clear assurance in this House that we can legislate for VAT for Northern Ireland —so I am not quite sure why he was querying that.

[Mr Baker]

The Secretary of State has made that clear, but I have some nervousness when talking to my right hon. Friend because of the extent and difficulty of the walk he and I have had together; I know how powerfully he feels about these issues. I am very clear that the EU can only legislate in relation to the goods law that remains in place and we have had the very clear assurance on VAT, but if he has any further doubts or concerns about this, I would appreciate the opportunity to sit down with him, go through it in great detail and answer all his questions, even if he is not 100% satisfied. As I have said—I think now for the fifth or sixth time—I know that leaving in place some EU law in Northern Ireland is a hard compromise for Unionists and Eurosceptics. It is a hard compromise for me, as I know it is a hard compromise for him. Nevertheless, eight years on, we have delivered what I would regard as alternative arrangements in Northern Ireland—something we were once told was magical thinking and worthy of unicorns.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

Does the Minister of State join me in welcoming the fact that we currently have the first applicability motion being brought before the Assembly? It is a change to the previous arrangements and enables the Assembly to vote on whether a change to an EU law can apply in Northern Ireland. Furthermore, under the auspices of the Assembly’s newly established Democratic Scrutiny Committee, the Assembly will be able to block the application of new EU law and refer it to the UK Government for further consideration, and that ultimately the UK Government can veto that law being applied in Northern Ireland. While imperfect, these arrangements represent very substantial progress from where we were, which was an automatic pipeline of EU law, with no opportunity for scrutiny, and no opportunity to block or veto such a law. We are certainly in a better place than we were before these new arrangements.

[Mr Baker]

I am most grateful to the right hon. Member. Of course I welcome these arrangements. I was very pleased to give instruction to my officials that the Assembly should be notified. Beyond that, on the particular measure, I do not wish to go any further at all, because I am absolutely determined that this should be a matter for the Assembly, with the UK Government stepping back and leaving it to the democratic consent of MLAs.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I will give way once more, but I think I should then make a little more progress.

[Ian Paisley]

The Minister does not want to be in a position where he is the gift that keeps on giving to certain people. I would like clarity on this issue of VAT, because it was cleared up from the Dispatch Box before that the EU would have no say on VAT matters. A Minister of the Crown should be able to say, from the Dispatch Box, that the EU has no impact and no say whatsoever on the issue of VAT. I come to this very directly on behalf of a constituent who has already written to me. In the last two weeks, he has received notification that, before he can purchase machinery, he has to provide an EORI—economic operators registration and identification —number, which is a Republic of Ireland VAT mechanism. He does not trade in the Republic of Ireland and he has nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland, yet he has been asked by our authorities to provide an EORI before he purchases equipment in the United Kingdom for trade within the United Kingdom. This has to be cleared up, and it has to be cleared up pretty fast.

[Mr Baker]

The assurance was given on VAT, and I stand by that assurance. Before this moment, I was not aware of the particular circumstances that the hon. Member has just shared with me. I encourage him either to write to me or to come to see me—perhaps to do both—and let us get to the bottom of it. One thing I am sure of is that we want to get through all these tricky issues as smoothly, transparently and effectively as possible in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland, because it really is time to move on, get public services reformed, get the Government there on to a sustainable basis and allow people to get on with life as usual.

[Colum Eastwood]

rose—

[Mr Baker]

I must give way to the hon. Member once more, but then I think I will finish.

[Colum Eastwood]

The point is actually in the Humble Address—and the Government seem to be going out of their way both in the Command Paper and the Humble Address to make the point—that, in the Good Friday agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998, there is no provision for joint authority. Of course, we all know—those of us who have been around long enough—that many things have changed since then, not least at St Andrews. But, that aside, would the Minister confirm to this House that there is also no provision in the Good Friday agreement or the 1998 Act for direct rule from London?

[Mr Baker]

Strand 1 is of course a matter for the United Kingdom, and while Northern Ireland is within the United Kingdom, everyone would expect us to make Northern Ireland work within the UK. Although there is no provision for direct rule, I gently point out to the hon. Gentleman that we went to some lengths, and at some cost, not to return to direct rule at this time. We have allowed events to evolve as they have precisely because we did not wish to return to direct rule. We are extremely grateful that there is a returned Executive in Northern Ireland, but we have a responsibility to all citizens of Northern Ireland to ensure that they are governed effectively. That is why we have put in place the arrangements that we made, and I for one am grateful that we did not have to go any further.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

Oh my word: we are going to have a general debate on the Belfast/Good Friday agreement.

[Stephen Farry]

I am grateful to the Minister. His remark about ensuring that this works for all our citizens has sparked me to life. Will he set out the Government’s approach to reform of the institutions? As he knows, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee produced a comprehensive report on the issue, which to date the Government have simply said that they “note”. There is still a risk that the institutions will collapse, and the same reasons that allowed them to collapse in the past are still there. Hopefully they will not collapse, but that is the danger. Will he assure us that he and his colleagues will work closely with the Irish Government and the parties in Northern Ireland to ensure a proper examination of the rules on the institutions, to ensure that we do not end up in the same mess that we have had twice over the past seven years?

[Mr Baker]

I am most grateful—although after this I will plunge further into my speech, because I want to conclude it. Our position is very clear that any change must come from the parties in Northern Ireland. That is not to say we are uninterested—I have personally been through an exercise of considering all the possible reforms that there could be. At the end of that lengthy exercise, I concluded that no plan for reform of the institutions and their operation would work if it was driven by yours truly. It is essential that this conversation comes from the parties in Northern Ireland. I do not doubt that we will wish to note and take interest in such a conversation, but it is for the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, who are well represented on the opposition Benches, to move such a conversation forward. That is not something that the UK Government will be driving forward. It is vital that the new Executive now have the space to get on with governing Northern Ireland and doing what is very much needed.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I said that I was going to press on, but my colleague is the first Conservative Member to intervene on this theme, so I will give way.

[Richard Graham]

I am grateful to the Minister. The hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) earlier described the statement as a “love letter to the DUP”, but I saw it more as a love letter to Northern Ireland, and the huge opportunities that can be seized from realising what he and his colleagues, working with all parties in Northern Ireland, have managed to pull together. Does he agree that an interesting statistic about Northern Ireland this year is the huge increase in the number of businesses registered there? I think it is up by 60% in the last year alone. Surely that is a great sign of the confidence that people and businesses now have in the opportunities in Northern Ireland.

[Mr Baker]

I certainly agree about the extraordinary opportunity before Northern Ireland.

The Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 are explicit that any change to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland would require the consent of a simple majority of its people. The UK Government are absolutely clear that there is no basis to suggest that at present a majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to separate from the UK. Our position is therefore straightforward: Northern Ireland has a bright and prosperous future within the Union, for as long as the people of Northern Ireland wish it. That position does not diminish the right of others to pursue through democratic and peaceful means their aspiration for other outcomes.

We all remain committed to building and strengthening the three sets of relationships at the heart of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. The restoration of the political institutions at Stormont will enable critical relationships across and between communities in Northern Ireland to be strengthened, with vital work on building reconciliation to be taken forward in the months and years ahead. There are new opportunities to strengthen co-operation in the relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland from outside the EU. This co-operation does not threaten Northern Ireland’s constitutional status, but it can help to build economic prosperity and deliver vital investment in infrastructure. As a UK Government, we also recognise the need to invest in east-west relationships, not only within the United Kingdom, as with the new UK East-West Council, but through the other institutions, such as the British-Irish Council and the intergovernmental conference.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am heartened to hear what the Minister has said about the importance of the east-west connections. Sometimes there is not enough emphasis on those, so I am keen to hear what the Minister will do to ensure that those happen with a much more concrete attitude, as well as what he will do on Ulster Scots and the culture. It is not only east-west in the UK that is important, but east-west to the USA. Those are some of the things I feel we should be doing.

[Mr Baker]

I know we will hear from my hon. Friend many times on these issues, and he has a great deal to contribute. I will see to it, particularly with this new role I have jointly with the Cabinet Office, that the Command Paper is vigorously implemented with all the strength I can muster to get it done at a speed that suits him and me. I will update the House in due course as we make progress. I certainly want the whole House and all the people of Northern Ireland to know what we are doing and when we are doing it, and to see that we are making progress with vigour. I certainly commit to doing that. I have had this joint role with the Windsor framework taskforce for a week, and I have made some progress, but I hope he will understand that I am not ready today to commit to a timeline to all the institutions being up and running. We certainly will proceed with vigour.

Our exit from the EU should not mean that co-operation and friendship are diminished. Rather, it compels us all to work harder to invest in and strengthen all the relationships that are important to the peoples within these islands and across Europe. Our independent status should in no way diminish our friendship. I commend this Humble Address to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Baker]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian Paisley]

I will. I am delighted that the Minister wants to intervene.

[Mr Baker]

I cannot wait for my closing speech so I can say to the hon. Gentleman, “Please, give us all these examples in full detail in writing.” I will be very pleased indeed to have my officials go through them with a fine-toothed comb and see what can be done in absolutely every case. As has been said time and again, work will continue to be done to improve matters. I am yearning for the full detail so that we can work on it.

[Ian Paisley]

I like the Minister’s enthusiasm, but may I say that I am ahead of him? The leader of my party and I have already met officials and discussed these issues with them. We have put them to the Cabinet Office, which I understand is the proper channel. I hope the Cabinet Office includes the Minister so he can get his teeth into these matters and deliver for me, my party leader and my colleagues on the issues that perplex us so much.

[Mr Baker]

The hon. Gentleman may have missed it, but last Monday was my first day as a joint Cabinet Office and Northern Ireland Office Minister, precisely so I can assist officials with some ministerial work.

[Ian Paisley]

Minister, I congratulate you on your promotion, but I commiserate with you because you will be dealing more and more with me and my colleagues. We will test you to the nth degree—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Steve Baker]

With the leave of the House, I rise to close the debate on this Humble Address, and I am very grateful to everyone who has participated in it.

This is a Unionist Government, and we are steadfast in our belief that the best future for Northern Ireland will always be as an integral part of a strong and prosperous United Kingdom, even as we respect the legitimate rights of others to pursue another outcome. We are the most successful political and economic Union in the world, something with which a majority of Members of this House would agree. This debate has reiterated the unwavering support for the Union across the House. We have reaffirmed the importance of upholding the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in all its strands. We have acknowledged the foundational importance of the Acts of Union 1800, including the economic provisions under article 6—much as I listened to the words of some Members opposite—and we have recognised that joint authority is not provided for in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in respect of the UK and Irish Governments.

I am most grateful to the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), for his speech. We are united in congratulating the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), and we are absolutely united in wishing the First Minister and Deputy First Minister every success in their endeavours. It has been said several times by the shadow Secretary of State and others, but “never again”, and I think we are all united in our hope that never again will Northern Ireland go without an Executive.

The shadow Secretary of State mentioned the all-island economy, which is a matter that has particular sensitivity for DUP Members, and made reference to the joint report. He asked about the effect of repealing the relevant section. As he knows, the joint report and its provisions predated our departure from the EU. Now that we have left the EU, the withdrawal agreement makes provision in fulfilment of many of those matters. The joint report to which the shadow Secretary of State referred has been superseded by the withdrawal agreement and by the trade and co-operation agreement. Of course, I know I have not taught him anything he did not know already. At the moment, we are of course in regular dialogue with the EU, and as far as we are aware, the EU is satisfied with the way we are proceeding. What I would say to him is that, at the moment, I have no reason to believe there will be any significant consequences of the repeal of that section.

[Hilary Benn]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that explanation, and of course I am aware that the joint report predated the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, but if it was in effect rendered redundant by that Act, why did that Act make specific provision to have regard to the joint report?

[Mr Baker]

Elements were relevant at the time, as the Secretary of State has just mentioned to me, but, alas, I was not the relevant Minister at the time. I did the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, not the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. However, if I am advised otherwise by officials after this debate, I shall certainly write to the shadow Secretary of State and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House. I am not expecting to be advised that there would be significant consequences, but I shall certainly take advice.

I particularly appreciated the shadow Secretary of State’s exegesis of the Acts of Union. I am not a great historian, and I appreciated his running through those things. We are of course all absolutely united in our desire for a better future for Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) welcomed the compromise and the pragmatism of everyone involved. I do not think I will tease him, as he has teased me, on that particular point. He made a very thoughtful speech about people’s ability to indicate their consent or otherwise to membership of a particular state, and he raises some important matters that I will not have time to go into.

I particularly appreciated, of course, the leader of the DUP’s speech. I think this is a very good day for Unionism. Speaking as an English MP, even though I have been choosing to go to Northern Island since 2013, it is very easy as an English MP to neglect the Union. What we have seen through this process is that the whole Government and the whole House have come far more deeply to appreciate the need to nurture the Union. I think today is a good day for the Union, and I think the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends have done a service to the whole Union by highlighting these issues and forcing us all to confront the need to nurture the Union, even if, as I think it is fair to say, it is not one of the most prominent issues in English constituencies. I certainly pay tribute to him and his DUP colleagues for what they have achieved.

As the right hon. Gentleman made a point about the red lane, and the need to improve further and move more goods out of it, which I am absolutely all for doing, I think it is worth reminding everyone of who voted for the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill. I believe everyone in the DUP voted for the Bill.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

indicated assent.

[Mr Baker]

There are nods of assent. The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill established the principle that there should be a red lane, and we do need to remember that the red lane is therefore legitimate. It is something that we should all have expected. On the issues that have been invented, I think we have enough practical problems in this life without inventing additional ones.

I want to turn to the remarks of the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), because he said that Brexit is the original sin. I am going to accept the temptation that he put before me to respond on this point. Occasionally, we get the opportunity to comment on matters of historical sin, and I hope the House will forgive me if I say that to me the original sin was proceeding with the Maastricht treaty and all it meant without getting consent. It was compounded by the mortal sin of proceeding with the Lisbon treaty positively against the expressed wishes of a number of populations. That is what brought me into politics—positively establishing the European constitution by another name against the expressed wishes of populations in referenda.

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about Brexit being the original sin. Although I am tempted to say that I am an unapologetic Unionist, a waggish official reminded me earlier, “But, Minister, you’ve made a number of apologies”—apologies notably in relation to Ireland, but I do not mind sharing with the House and the public that, during the early days of my appointment to this role, I said to a number of stakeholder groups in Northern Ireland, particularly in the area of Derry/Londonderry, “Yes, I am sorry that you have been put to as much trouble as you have through this withdrawal process.” I have great sympathy with what he says, but if we can step back a little, out of this whole process, there is a lesson for those who wish to make great constitutional changes, and that is to take the public with them at all times, but I am certainly not perfect in that regard. I for one, however, wish to put all that behind us and to move forward.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the all-Ireland economy and talked about the need for east-west and north-south to operate in harmony, and I am of one mind with him. I am absolutely all for free trade and removing all barriers to free trade wherever that can be done consistently with democratic consent.

Casement Park came up a couple of times, and we need to see a proper business case with a full statement of the costs involved. Clearly, there has been inflation in the costs, and we need to see what the full bill would be.

Revenue raising was part of the financial settlement tabled in December. The Government’s primary objective is to support stability and fiscal sustainability through a restored Executive who have the tools to deliver better outcomes for the people of Northern Ireland in an affordable way. That is why a condition of this package—specifically, the quantum of debt to be written off—will be agreed on a proportionate basis to locally raised revenue generated from the implementation of the Executive’s fiscal sustainability plan.

The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) made a very interesting speech. I do not doubt that we have arrived where we are by a circuitous route, but here we are, and I think this is a happy day for Unionism overall. As the right hon. Gentleman the leader of the DUP said, we have a great opportunity to go forward now and make Northern Ireland work for all the people and to persuade them, in the context of those changing demographics, that they would be well placed to continue to choose to remain within the United Kingdom.

The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) set me a number of questions, and I do not wish to further return to the rabbit hole he mentioned on border polls. I think I will just refer to my opening remarks, which were crafted to avoid any kind of ambiguity. He asked: when will we see action? We have seen action: we have legislated twice already, we are here for this Humble Address and we will continue to take action.

On the veterinary medicines working group, I will undertake to write to the hon. Gentleman before the week is out on the progress in establishing it, and I will place that letter in the Library so that others can see it, because I know it is a subject of the first importance, particularly to him. I shall write to him to set out our progress towards establishing that working group. I gave officials very clear instructions that we were to proceed with great haste, as swiftly as possible, to the establishment of that group and the horticulture working group. The horticulture working group is already established, and we will have further communication to do on that point.

Intertrade is dependent on the East-West Council, and we will need to work through those issues, including across Government. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that for east-west work to be effective we must properly engage, particularly with our colleagues in the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, and with the other devolved Administrations. Let us get this thing right. That means it will take just a little time, and I hope he can bear with me. As I said in my opening remarks, I am determined to proceed as swiftly as possible and to keep the House informed, including on the point about the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. The hon. Gentleman has already undertaken to give me the examples he mentioned, and I look forward to processing those. His history is better than mine. He referred to the Home Rule debate in 1879, and let us hope that we continue to do better than they did. They took 78 years to resolve some of those matters. We have already made swifter progress, and I am proud of it.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the Minister for that. Of course, the Home Rule debates were brought to a cataclysmic end—we see on the walls of this Chamber the testament to that end and to the great war of 1914.

Has the Minister made any progress on farm machinery? That was promised during the last legislative process that we went through. Can he confirm tonight that there has been a breakthrough on the sale of eggs? People might think this is cracking, but it is not. It is important, because 80% of all eggs hatched in Northern Ireland are sold on the mainland.

[Ian Paisley]

It is eggs-cellent. If that was not the case, and if there was a problem due to veterinary medicines, or salmonella, that matter of sales would be brought to an immediate end. Will the Minister confirm that there has been a derogation this evening for Northern Ireland with regard to the sale of eggs across the United Kingdom? [Interruption.]

[Mr Baker]

I do not have any “breaking” news to share with the hon. Gentleman tonight—but I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for that joke, which people will recognise as being characteristic of him.

I have slightly exceeded the time that I intended to take. I listened carefully to the speech from the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart), and I have considerable sympathy with the points she makes. I think I accepted in my opening remarks that this is a hard compromise for Unionists and Eurosceptics, but I remain convinced and resolute that we have taken forward measures that respect the legitimate interests of Unionism in Northern Ireland and across the whole UK, and that move matters forward.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), as always, made a great speech. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) caused me in his challenge to doubt myself on the issue of VAT, so I want to affirm the position. The position on VAT is clear: the framework secured legally binding changes so that Northern Ireland benefits from the same VAT and alcohol taxes as in the rest of the UK. Those have been used to introduce reliefs on energy saving materials, to apply alcohol duty reforms UK wide, and to ensure that draught relief applies for beer sold in all UK pubs. Those benefits are being felt now in Northern Ireland and across the UK.

The hon. Member for North Antrim raised EORIs and I will be glad to return to that issue. My right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) mentioned plant trade, and I am pleased that, like her, businesses have welcomed measures in the Command Paper. Earlier this month my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State received a letter from prominent Northern Ireland horticultural businesses stating that, thankfully, with the restauration of the Executive they are already experiencing positive feedback from their suppliers in Great Britain, who are “optimistic” about trading with them without any challenges.

Let me be expressly clear once again: Northern Ireland’s position is based on consent. The task for those of us who want the Union to prosper is to consider how we broaden support for Northern Ireland’s constitutional position in a world that is very different from the one in which the agreement was reached in 1998. No one could really add to the speech made with great skill by my right hon. Friend the leader of the Democratic Unionist party. Central to that approach has to be to make Northern Ireland work and flourish, and to do so for everyone, regardless of their community background or political aspirations, which we absolutely respect. The Government will continue to work to deliver the suite of commitments made under the “Safeguarding the Union” Command Paper, and continue to work with the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly Members to improve the lives of people living in Northern Ireland. Once again, I commend the Humble Address to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That an Humble Address be presented to His Majesty welcoming the return of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, re-affirming the importance of upholding the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement 1998 in all its strands, acknowledging the foundational importance of the Acts of Union 1800, including the economic provisions under Article 6 of those Acts, and recognising that, consistent with section 23(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, executive power in Northern Ireland shall continue to be vested in His Majesty, and that joint authority is not provided for in the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement 1998 in respect of the UK and Irish Governments.

Draft Local Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2024 Draft Representation of the People (Postal Vote Handling etc.) (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Steve Baker Excerpts

Wednesday 21st February 2024 General Committees

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the Draft Local Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2024.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Representation of the People (Postal Vote Handling etc.) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2024.

[Mr Baker]

I am glad to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, and I am grateful to all members of the Committee for being here this morning to consider these substantial and important draft statutory instruments. This Government are committed to protecting the integrity of our democratic process, and we continue to deliver on that commitment by introducing measures included in our manifesto to prevent postal vote harvesting. That is the practice of third parties collecting the votes of large numbers of postal voters.

The Elections Act 2022 included a number of changes to ensure that UK elections remain secure, fair and modern. The statutory instruments, which I am pleased to bring before the Committee, flow directly from that Act. One instrument applies the measures for parliamentary and Assembly elections in Northern Ireland, and the second instrument mirrors those measures for local elections in Northern Ireland. Equivalent legislation that will bring the changes into force for Great Britain has already been passed by Parliament. Taken together, the instruments and the legislation for GB provide a package of measures covering non-devolved elections in GB and Northern Ireland and will ensure that the absent voting system in Northern Ireland benefits from the same protections as elsewhere in the UK. If approved, the instruments will ensure that the changes will come into force at the same time for both GB and Northern Ireland.

The measures contained in the instruments before us set a limit on how many postal votes any one individual can hand in directly to the returning officer. That implements recommendations set out in the report on electoral fraud published in 2016 by Lord Pickles, which was designed to improve the security of absent voting and make it less vulnerable to potential fraud. The measures also complement other provisions for Northern Ireland in the Elections Act to protect the integrity of the absent vote process. They include a ban on political campaigners handling postal voting documents issued to another person and measures ensuring the secrecy of absent voting through the extension of secrecy provisions. The provisions apply to elections on or after 2 May 2024. One of the instruments before us contains some technical amendments relating to the changes to EU voting and candidacy rights, which I will touch on briefly later.

I come on to the limit on the handling of postal votes of other persons. The instruments set out that an individual, in addition to their own postal vote, will be able to hand in the postal votes of up to five other electors to the returning officer. In Northern Ireland, postal votes can be handed in to the chief electoral officer’s staff at the electoral office. The chief electoral officer is the returning officer for all 18 constituencies in Northern Ireland. Unlike in GB, where postal votes may be returned to the polling station, in Northern Ireland, due to additional security checks, handing in postal votes at polling stations has never been permitted. The ban on handing in at Northern Ireland polling stations is not changed in any way by these measures.

Currently, there are no restrictions on who may hand in postal votes or how many may be handed in by any single person. There is also no record of who has handed in postal votes. That situation creates opportunities for the integrity of postal voting to be undermined by unscrupulous individuals. We are determined to deliver the manifesto commitment to tackle the harvesting or collection of votes in that way. Even if their actions are legitimate, people seen handing in large numbers of postal votes create the perception and suspicion of impropriety, damaging public confidence in the electoral system. That is particularly true in Northern Ireland.

The instruments aim to strike the balance between the security and integrity of the process and ensuring that the electoral process is accessible. Under the regulations and order, a person will be able to hand in their own postal vote and the postal votes of up to five other people, including any for whom they are acting as proxy. We consider that to be a reasonable limit that will support the integrity of postal voting. A person handing in postal votes will be required to complete a form setting out information, including their name and address, the number of persons whose postal votes they are handing in and the reason for that. If an individual hands in postal votes in excess of the limit, they will be rejected. Any postal votes that have been left behind in the electoral office without an accompanying form, or those pushed under the front door out of hours, will not be counted, as they will not have been returned in accordance with these requirements.

These instruments will also update all relevant prescribed forms to make sure the new limits and procedures are set out clearly for electors. That information should help electors to plan accordingly and return their postal votes via post where possible. If they are handing them in, they will know the permitted number they can submit.

After the poll, the chief electoral officer will put together a list of postal ballot papers that have been rejected because the handing-in limit was exceeded and, where possible, will write to those whose postal votes have been rejected to notify them and give the reason why. That will ensure postal voters are informed of the rejection of their postal vote and can, if necessary, act to avoid it at future polls.

These instruments make provision for the storage and destruction of accepted and rejected postal voting documents, the return of postal voting document forms and the list of rejected or left-behind postal votes. In line with the arrangements for other electoral documents, they will be destroyed one year after the poll. The new postal vote handing-in requirements will, as with the changes banning political campaigners from handling postal votes and the extension of secrecy provisions, apply to elections on or after 2 May 2024.

Turning to the technical amendments relating to the changes to EU voting and candidacy rights, the draft Representation of the People (Postal Vote Handling etc.) (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2024 make some small changes in relation to EU voting and candidacy rights. The Elections Act 2022 amended the voting and candidacy rights of EU citizens to reflect the UK’s new relationship with the EU. The Representation of the People (Franchise Amendment and Eligibility Review) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023 amended existing legislation to implement the changes in the Elections Act.

The 2023 regulations provided for a one-off review process so that EU citizens on the register can be reviewed by the chief electoral officer and removed from the register if no longer eligible under the amended franchise. The regulations before the Committee amend the 2023 regulations so that, where the eligibility of EU citizens to remain on the register has been reviewed, duplicate notices do not have to be issued. Without this amendment, the chief electoral officer would be required to send a notice under existing review procedures and a notice under the new one-off process when removing an EU citizen. Some minor technical amendments are also made to reflect the new franchise.

Additionally, these regulations make transitional provision to ensure that candidates and other registered EU citizens remain eligible to stand and hold office in elections that might need to be re-run on or after 7 May 2024, the date on which the changes to EU voting and candidacy rights otherwise come into effect.

Having set out the detail of these statutory instruments, I hope the Committee will appreciate that they have been carefully designed and well considered to reduce the opportunities for individuals to exploit the process and steal the votes of others. I am open to questions. I am proud to bring these instruments forward, and I commend them to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for her speech. We all completely share her commitment to free and fair elections and believe that every vote matters. That is certainly something that we can put on the record together. I had occasion once to report one of my own candidates to the police, and I would gently say to police forces that every vote does matter and that it is a serious matter if a vote is undermined or, in that case, stolen from a woman. But that is another story for another day.

I had the first Adjournment debate of this Parliament on these matters and, if colleagues are struggling to sleep, perhaps they might refer back to it. Let me turn very clearly to what the hon. Lady has asked me. First, I would like to give her a full answer on the issue of the definition of a party campaigner. The provisions for Northern Ireland and the definition of a political campaigner for the purpose of the new postal vote handling offence, and the exemptions that apply to that offence, are set out in section 4(2) of the Elections Act 2022. The Electoral Commission issues guidance to candidates at elections as a caution, and we expect that it will cover the new postal vote handling and handing-in requirements. We also expect that political parties will bring the new requirements to the attention of their members. We intend the changes to be communicated to electors directly through forms, including the declaration of identity form and poll cards, and through information made available to electors via the electoral office website and gov.uk.

Since the hon. Lady pressed me on the definition of a campaigner, broadly speaking, the rules set out in the legislation are that a

“person is a political campaigner in respect of a relevant election”

if at that election they are a candidate, an election agent or a sub-agent, if they are “employed or engaged” by a candidate for the purposes of assisting the candidate’s activity, or—this is the point that the hon. Lady will be most concerned about—if they are a member of a “registered political party” and conducting activity

“designed to promote a particular outcome at the election”.

Of course, that will catch all our activists. They need to know that if they are a member—that is a crucial point —of a registered political party and conducting such activity, then they are a campaigner. Next, they are a political campaigner if they are

“employed or engaged by a registered political party in connection with the party’s political activities”,

or if they are “employed or engaged” by a person within any of the previous categories

“to promote a particular outcome at the election”.

That applies to anyone whom such a person employs or engages to help promote such an outcome. That is the definition. Some of it is quite a mouthful. We will need to ensure that as political parties, including in Northern Ireland, we are clear with our members about where the regulations apply to them.

The hon. Lady asked about the danger of losing votes. It is worth saying that this is about the handing in of postal votes. Normally, all of us would expect postal votes to be posted, but this is about the handing in. We think that the limit is reasonable. We are clear that it will be necessary to say, for example, on the front door of the electoral office that people must not post the votes through the letterbox themselves or put them under the door, and they will not be counted if they do, so that is covered.

On resourcing of electoral officers, I do not have the figures with me today, but we will stay in frequent contact with the relevant authorities in relation to their resourcing. The hon. Lady raised a good point. I think I have largely covered the point about communications on packs and the Electoral Commission. We need to ensure that the text is right, as set out in the instrument. We need to ensure that the Electoral Commission communicates with voters, and that the packs themselves are clear about what is required of people.

I hope that, taken together, all these things will ensure the integrity of the electoral process. I hope that the hon. Lady is satisfied. She is right to be concerned about ensuring that everyone gets their vote. We share that concern, and as political parties, I am sure that we will all do our utmost to ensure that everyone understands how this should work and gets their vote counted fairly.

Question put and agreed to.

Draft Representation of the People (Postal Vote Handling etc.) (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Representation of the People (Postal Vote Handling etc.) (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.—(Mr Baker.)

United Kingdom Internal Market

Steve Baker Excerpts

Thursday 1st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

I beg to move,

That the draft Windsor Framework (UK Internal Market and Unfettered Access) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 31 January, be approved.

It is the view of the Government and, I believe, of the overwhelming number of right hon. and hon. Members across the House that the Union ought not be reduced to matters of the law or the constitution alone. Ours is a thriving economic, cultural and political Union whose health is insured, in no small part, by the free flow of trade across it. Enhancing that economic aspect of the Union is the purpose of this second set of regulations before the House today.

The views of businesses and traders on the progress that we have made are also important in the context of today’s debate. I am pleased to confirm that the early reaction from business has been promising. The view of a collaboration of 14 key Northern Ireland industry bodies was clear yesterday in saying that they welcomed the agreement.

The Government are clear that the old protocol created unacceptable barriers within our internal market, and I invite anyone to consider the full implementation of the old protocol against what we have achieved in the Windsor framework. The Windsor framework takes major steps forward, and I acknowledge that this is first and foremost an achievement of the Democratic Unionist party and also a great achievement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

The framework restored the functioning of the UK internal market by ensuring the smooth flow of trade within the UK, and disapplied a range of EU laws, including ensuring that Northern Ireland benefits from the same VAT and alcohol taxes as the rest of the UK. Members of the House can also be encouraged by the smooth functioning of the framework since October 2023, when the first phase of arrangements came on stream, supporting trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I should just say that colleagues did ask me how it was going. I said, “Have you seen any news on it?” Of course, no one has; it has been going very well, and I want to thank and congratulate all those officials here and in Northern Ireland who have made that possible.

These regulations go further in that aim to strengthen our UK internal market now and in the long term. Following the agreement of the Windsor framework, the border target operating model sets out that we will begin phasing in checks and controls for Irish goods and non-qualifying goods moving from the island of Ireland to Great Britain from 31 January—indeed from yesterday. This is a powerful demonstration of Northern Ireland’s integral place in the UK’s internal market, and it rebuts incorrect claims that it is instead a member of the EU single market. The reality is that third country members of the EU single market will now have full third country processes applied, while Northern Ireland’s businesses will have full unfettered access to their most important market in Great Britain.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

The Minister is absolutely right. Perhaps the most powerful illustration of the change that we have secured is to consider what will happen now on the ferry route between Dublin and Holyhead as a result of these new arrangements. A Northern Ireland haulier using that service will board the ferry, travel to Holyhead, leave the ferry and travel straight out of the port and on to their destination, with no customs procedures and with full unfettered access. In contrast, a southern Irish haulier arriving at Holyhead will be subjected to full UK customs procedures at the port before they can proceed. Does he join me in welcoming Northern Ireland’s restoration fully within the UK internal market?

[Mr Baker]

Yes. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in what he has just set out, and I do join him in that. It is a proud day for me, as it is for him, and I join other Members in congratulating him on his courage in bringing all of us this far.

As a result of these regulations, we now have guarantees for Northern Ireland goods moving to the rest of the UK, via Dublin. This unfettered access is future-proofed, regardless of how rules evolve in either Northern Ireland or Great Britain. These regulations will more squarely focus the benefits of unfettered access on Northern Ireland traders. The regulations tackle avoidance of the rules and ensure that, for agri-food goods to benefit from unfettered access in avoiding sanitary and phytosanitary processes, they must be dispatched from registered Northern Ireland food and feed operators. We will also expressly affirm through these regulations that export procedures will not be applied to goods moving from Northern Ireland to other parts of the UK’s internal market.

[John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

It has been said that maybe 80% of goods moving from GB to NI will be able to use the internal market lane. Why will 20% not be able to do so, and why would the UK Government, who I was told were in charge, not want to ensure that practically all goods use the internal market lane?

[Mr Baker]

With great respect to my right hon. Friend, with whom I have gone a very long way in this cause, he might like to revisit the text. The point is that the 80% of goods going on that route are staying in Northern Ireland; they are UK goods. The other 20% are goods that are going on to the European Union. That is the point: 80% is UK internal market trade, and 20% is trade going on to the European Union.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

rose—

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I will. I cannot say that I am astonished; this is the important moment.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the Minister accept that all the statistics show that it is not true that 20% of the trade that goes through Northern Ireland goes to the Irish Republic? In fact, it is about 0.1% to 0.4%. Much of that trade, which will go through the red lane, consists of goods going into Northern Ireland, either to warehouses or to manufacturers in Northern Ireland. They might never go near the Irish Republic. They might stay in Northern Ireland, go back to GB, or go to the rest of the world, yet such products will still be subject to checks going into Northern Ireland.

[Mr Baker]

I would not accept that. I am not in a position to set out the statistics, and I do not doubt that the statistics need some work applied to them. It pains me to say this, as I have always regarded the right hon. Gentleman as a great friend—he and I have walked a long way together on this and I have always regarded him as an ideological bedfellow, both on the Union and on Brexit—but as his group leader, the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), said earlier, we voted for, and fervently supported, the protocol Bill. We said that we were willing to have a red lane in order to safeguard the legitimate interests of our friends and partners—and family members, as the Irish ambassador Martin Fraser said. This was always a family dispute, and we were always going to get through it.

Our friends in Ireland, and indeed in the EU, have legitimate interests, which we should have the humility to respect. Even if we had acted unilaterally as a single united Parliament, ridden roughshod over any international negotiation and just done what suited ourselves with the protocol Bill, we would have implemented the red lane. I am afraid that I will part company now with anyone who says otherwise. We would rightly have implemented the red lane, even acting unilaterally, out of respect for the legitimate interests of our friends and trading partners.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Will the Minister join me in welcoming the announcement on Tuesday of agreement on a joint legal text that will significantly change the status of goods coming from the rest of the world into Great Britain and travelling on to Northern Ireland? The effect of that change, which is part of the arrangements and the published Command Paper, will be that some 4 million goods movements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland will now be moving out of the red lane and into the UK internal market system. That is this party delivering, and securing real change that ensures that more goods flow freely between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, save for those going into the EU or that are at risk of doing so because they are part of a manufacturing process for goods being sold to the EU.

[Mr Baker]

I strongly welcome that intervention. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was going to mention the draft joint agreement on tariff rate quotas. For a while I was concerned that TRQs needed to be applied to Northern Ireland so that Northern Ireland could share fully in the benefits of free trade agreements with the rest of the world.

I hope to return to this later, but in case I do not have the opportunity to do so, I want to say what an extraordinary situation Northern Ireland is now in. Northern Ireland is not in the single market. I draw everyone’s attention to page 4 of the Command Paper, which sets out checkmarks comparing Northern Ireland with Ireland, as a member of the EU, and with Norway, which is a member of the single market through the European economic area but is not in the customs union or the European Union. Northern Ireland really has the minimum of EU law compatible with unfettered—or privileged, perhaps—goods access to the EU market, and consistent with having an open, infra- structure-free border.

I wonder at people who thought that we could leave the European Union and establish a hard border, or do absolutely nothing about the border. We were always going to leave the European Union and have special arrangements in relation to Northern Ireland. This is a moment of great feeling for me, because before the referendum vote, I and other colleagues set up a committee of Eurosceptics to consider how we might deal with these issues. I confess that we did not have the SPS and customs expertise to proceed. That then became the great story of this battle.

If the United Kingdom had united in accepting the result of the referendum, if this Parliament had united in going forward with resolve to further our own interests as an independent nation state outside the EU, but crucially with the humility to respect the legitimate interests of our friends and partners, and if from the beginning we had had united resolve and clarity of vision, I do not doubt that in a spirit of friendship and good will—the kind that exists today between Ireland and us, and between the European Union and us, thanks to the work of the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister and others—we would have been, as we are now, in a totally transformed position to make our way forward as friends, respectful of their interests and resolved on ours.

That is not what happened. The House does not need me to rehearse it. It has taken eight years of drama for us to arrive at this moment, when we have reduced EU law to this extent and put in place a red lane to protect the legitimate interests of Ireland and the EU. That is something that we should all be very proud of, after everything that we have faced and all the risks that could have put us in a far worse position.

[Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)]

I totally understand the need for a red lane to ensure that goods going into the Republic of Ireland are checked, but there is a business in Northern Ireland 98% of whose sales are into Northern Ireland. The stuff all comes to it in one container. Maybe 2% of that load might make its way into the Irish Republic as part of a service agreement with another dealer. I am talking about a major firm in my constituency that has an all-Ireland approach. That means that the red lane applies to every single item, even though 98% of its stuff is used in Northern Ireland, Scotland or England. It is a main distributor, and it will end up having to put all its goods through that. A job of work might need to be done to try to ameliorate its problems.

[Mr Baker]

The hon. Gentleman is right that a job of work will need to be done; I assure him that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has just said that of course it does. I am grateful that we will be doing that further work in a spirit of good will and co-operation through the joint committee with the European Union. If the hon. Gentleman drops an email to my Northern Ireland Office address, I shall be glad to visit the firm with him, bringing officials, and we will see whether we can move further to assist it. I need to find out more about its exact circumstances.

My goodness, that was a long series of interventions. This legislation ensures that we can avoid any unnecessary gold-plating in the implementation of new arrangements through new statutory guidance on section 46 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, setting out how public authorities should have special regard to Northern Ireland’s place in the UK’s internal market and customs territory, and the need to maintain the free flow of goods from NI to GB. We will take a power through the regulations to issue such statutory guidance, and public authorities will be required to have regard to it. Those changes to the law will help to ensure that public authorities take every proper effort to prevent new barriers to intra-UK trade. In doing so, they will maintain and strengthen the health of the UK internal market in the long term.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

One issue that greatly vexes those in my party is that farmers in my constituency, and in others, have said that vets now cost even more, as they have to source medicines and devices from an acceptable source. The Command Paper suggests that the issue has not been resolved but will be worked on. Is that a firm demand on the Government, or is it just another working group that will talk about things? My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) has been at the fore on this. We need a person on that committee to push things forward. If we have a solution through the committee, we need a timescale for delivery.

[Mr Baker]

We understand that point and we are listening to the hon. Gentleman and others. We are resolute that of course Northern Ireland must have proper access to veterinary medicines, and will be glad to work with him and others. He will appreciate what the priorities are and have been, and we will certainly continue to make pursuing veterinary medicines a high priority. I am personally resolute on the issue and look forward to pursuing it.

The regulations must be seen in the context of the overall package agreed between the Government and the DUP. The passage of these regulations demonstrates the Government’s commitment to taking forward that whole package and to maintaining the participation and trust of the whole community in Northern Ireland’s political processes and the Stormont institutions going forward.

If I may touch on what the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) said earlier, I, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the whole Government are completely committed to the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in all its dimensions. As I said to one nationalist politician—about a year ago now, if I recall—it is perfectly possible to be a Unionist and support the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in all its dimensions, just as it is possible to be a nationalist or a republican and support the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in all its dimensions. It is the beauty and the triumph of the agreement that we can all support it and move forward.

I am trying to say this as gently as possible: I can understand a degree of discomfort from the hon. Gentleman, because this is a big breakthrough for Unionism. A Unionist Conservative Government have agreed to do Unionist things with the Democratic Unionist Party, and that is something I am very proud of. However, that does not in any way diminish our impartiality, or our commitment to governing or seeing to the government of Northern Ireland in a proper manner.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

rose—

[Mr Baker]

Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, may I just say that I think, after the experience of the last eight years—perhaps the last 14—I need defer to no one in my vociferous commitment to democratic self-determination.

[Colum Eastwood]

The Minister says he supports the Good Friday agreement in all its parts. Does he support the bit that says that the Government should be rigorously impartial?

[Mr Baker]

Yes, I—[Interruption.] I do not quite hear the comment from the leader of the DUP.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Not on the Union!

[Mr Baker]

It has long been said that this is the Conservative and Unionist party and we have long been understood to be a Unionist party. This agreement is entirely consistent with both our Unionism and our full respect for all dimensions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. We will continue to govern in a spirit of good will and impartiality.

[Sir Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Baker]

I will, but after I have given way to my right hon. and learned Friend, I will make progress and finish so that other colleagues can have their say.

[Sir Robert Buckland]

I have listened carefully to the interventions from the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and the concerns that he and others will have about the scrapping of the legal obligation with regard to the all-island economy. Is the point not that while, as a UK Government, we have to uphold the rules that apply within our United Kingdom and the promotion of our own internal market, that does not detract from the access to the single market that Northern Ireland businesses will continue to enjoy? That is the compromise that has been reached here. Therefore there is not a binary either/or choice; the hon. Gentleman’s concerns can largely be met and continue to be met in a way that is fully in accordance with the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement.

[Mr Baker]

I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend, who demonstrates his expertise.

I look forward as much as anyone to the re-establishment of the Assembly and the Executive, and along with that the re-establishment of the north-south institutions. They are much needed and I look forward to their work. I do not mind admitting that I find myself able to work constructively with politicians of all political parties in Northern Ireland, and I am glad to do so.

Let me return, in concluding, to what is at stake in this process. I firmly believe that all parties in this House and all parties eligible to form part of an Executive want Northern Ireland to work. I have seen what unites political leaders in Northern Ireland: a real determination to make life better for their constituents—and, my goodness, on a wide range of fronts that is necessary—and to allow Northern Ireland to grasp the opportunities of the future—and what opportunities they are. I elaborated on some of the things Northern Ireland has before it right now. If we combine the institutional arrangements before Northern Ireland with the very substantial financial package to transform public services and deal with the public finances, and if Northern Irish politicians reach out and grasp the opportunity now before them, they can make Northern Ireland a beacon to the world—a beacon of prosperity and, I hope, of reconciliation. These regulations are part of that process and I commend them to everyone in the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Baker]

Time is short, but I will do my level best to answer as many questions as I can. It has been a very interesting debate.

The right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) asked me which checks will be eliminated. The changes will apply both for identity or visual checks and for physical checks. We will take powers shortly to make direction to the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to ensure that is the case.

On the change to the definition of qualifying Northern Ireland goods, we will require them to have a genuine connection to Northern Ireland, and not to be merely crossing through. The SI requires qualifying Northern Ireland goods to be dispatched from NI-registered food-business operators. It concentrates competitive advantage on Northern Ireland firms. We will continue to engage closely with Northern Ireland businesses on future changes and will always be responsive if arrangements need to be improved—a theme that I can safely say runs throughout everything the Government will do.

The right hon. Gentleman asked when we will introduce guidance on section 46 of the UK Internal Market Act. We will work rapidly to deliver on every aspect of the deal announced yesterday. Guidance on section 46 will be prepared as quickly as possible. I certainly hear him on that point, and he will continue to press us. The guidance will be help to avoid unnecessary gold plating.

The right hon. Gentleman asked me about Cairnryan. EU goods arriving there will be checked in line with the border target operating model, but I can confirm there will be no border control post at Cairnryan. We are working through the options and will work closely with the devolved Governments, including the newly restored Executive, to achieve our shared objectives.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about flexibilities for veterinary medicines. We are committed to exploring flexibilities that can be deployed, where they are consistent with international law, to guarantee the supply of veterinary medicines in Northern Ireland. We will establish a veterinary medicines working group to identify possibilities in this policy area, but I am not in a position to set out those flexibilities now. However, as we have all put so much effort into resetting the relationship with the European Union, I hope and expect that we will be able to succeed in a negotiation.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers), the former Secretary of State, made a powerful case that Brexit must be fully delivered, with which I agree. I reassure her that nothing in this deal will prevent us from diverging. For the record, there are no commitments of any kind as part of this deal to align Great Britain with EU law, to prevent Great Britain from diverging from any retained EU law or to increase alignment in Northern Ireland beyond the strictly limited scope that Parliament has approved, which is itself subject to democratic consent and safeguards. For the avoidance of doubt, there is no legal mechanism to prevent divergence or force alignment across the whole of the UK. Ministers retain full freedom to diverge from retained EU law.

Both sides of the argument have expressed concern in this debate. I want to draw the House’s attention to paragraph 150 of the Command Paper:

“Internal Market Assessments will be publicly available so this change will enable Parliament and the NI Assembly to more readily have the information they need for their scrutiny functions. These steps will fundamentally rewire structures within the Government to ensure full consideration of the potential Northern Ireland impacts of any measures, ensuring that the internal market is integral to policy development.”

Of course, we will continue to work with all parties on outstanding issues.

[Sammy Wilson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I am extremely short of time but, out of respect, I will give way.

[Sammy Wilson]

Will the Minister admit to the bottom line, as contained in proposed new section 13C(2)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, set out in the draft Windsor Framework (Constitutional Status of Northern Ireland) Regulations 2024, which requires

“a statement to the effect that the Minister is unable to make such a statement”—

that is, that the Bill in question will not affect trade between Northern Ireland and GB—

“but His Majesty’s Government nevertheless wishes the House to proceed with the Bill”?

The bottom line is: yes, divergence can happen and trade can be disrupted.

[Mr Baker]

I readily concede that there can be changes to retained EU law and that divergence can happen, but we have set out the safeguards at some length. I also encourage the right hon. Gentleman—as my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), who made an excellent speech, said, and as indeed the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said—to look at the section of the Command Paper in relation to the Acts of Union. I myself learned a great deal about it.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I need to finish in one minute, but I will give way.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Very briefly, I draw the Minister’s attention to paragraph 146 of the Command Paper, which makes it very clear that where primary legislation carries implications for the internal market, the Government will set out the measures they propose to take to protect Northern Ireland’s place in the internal market.

[Mr Baker]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Yes, that is the position.

In closing, there are sensitivities on all sides, as we have heard over the course of the debate, but real life in the age of intervention is complex, and we will press on as best we can. With that, I believe this Government have kept to the timetable as we agreed. I very much hope we will be able to look forward now to a restored Executive—one we will be very pleased to support in serving the best interests of all the people of Northern Ireland.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Windsor Framework (UK Internal Market and Unfettered Access) Regulations 2024, which were laid before this House on 31 January, be approved.

Business of the House

Ordered,

At this day’s sitting, notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (1) and (2) of Standing Order No. 22D relating to the scheduling of select committee statements, a select committee statement on the Third Report of the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee may be made after the conclusion of proceedings on this motion.—(Robert Largan.)

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

As Members may know, the Backbench Business debate on miners and mining communities has been postponed to a later date. We will now move on to the Select Committee statement on behalf of the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee.

Northern Ireland

Steve Baker Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2023 Ministerial Corrections

[Sir Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend has mentioned additional UK Government funding, and an important element of that is levelling-up bids. We on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee note with concern that no Northern Ireland application was successful in the recent third phase. Can he assure me that a sum of funding is being set aside for Northern Ireland projects? If so, can he give us an indication of the likely amount being set aside?

[Mr Baker]

My right hon. and learned Friend is right to highlight the issue. A number of things have been said about this matter that are not the case. The money will be made available in Northern Ireland, and it has been set aside. If memory serves, it is about £15 million, but I would need to double-check—if I am incorrect, I will write to him. The reality is that we need decisions to be taken by a restored Executive, and the Government are keen to work with Northern Ireland Ministers to that end. I am grateful to him for highlighting this point and giving me the opportunity to say that the money will be spent in Northern Ireland.

[Official Report, 22 November 2023, Vol. 741, c. 308.]

Letter of correction from the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, the right hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker):

An error has been identified in the answer I gave to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland). The correct answer should have been:

[Mr Baker]

My right hon. and learned Friend is right to highlight the issue. A number of things have been said about this matter that are not the case. The money will be made available in Northern Ireland, and it has been set aside; £30 million has been reserved for Northern Ireland from round 3 of the levelling-up fund. The reality is that we need decisions to be taken by a restored Executive, and the Government are keen to work with Northern Ireland Ministers to that end. I am grateful to him for highlighting this point and giving me the opportunity to say that the money will be spent in Northern Ireland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Baker Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

11. Whether he plans to provide increased funding for childcare in Northern Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

Early education and childcare are devolved matters, so policy and spending decisions are for the Northern Ireland Executive. It is vital that a new Executive are formed to ensure that all available funding is used to maximum effect in Northern Ireland.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

The Minister knows that free childcare is not available in Northern Ireland, but is he aware of the serious consequences that people across the north are facing, particularly women? Childcare is extremely expensive in Northern Ireland—the most expensive outside of London—so something really needs to be done. Rather than telling me that this is just a matter for the Executive, who are not even sitting, can he tell me what he is doing right now to secure free childcare for those women, and who is he speaking to about it?

[Mr Baker]

I know that the hon. Lady does not mean to implore me to ride roughshod over the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, but we need to abide by the devolution settlement in that agreement. Northern Ireland has its own childcare system, and it is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Department of Education to put in place the much-needed policies for childcare support that the hon. Lady quite rightly raises. Successive Executives have not prioritised funding for childcare provision equivalent to that in England, despite having funding to do so through Barnett consequentials, so I hope she will join with me in saying to an Executive—which, of course, we hope will be restored—that they really do need to take care of childcare.

[Alex Cunningham]

Given that a post on the Prime Minister’s No. 10 Instagram account this week celebrated Northern Ireland’s businesses with the Irish tricolour, does the Minister think that parents would get a better child deal with the Republic?

[Mr Baker]

I am confident that somewhere there is a junior communications professional lamenting the fact that they accepted the automatically generated flag on that Instagram post, and I do not wish to deepen their embarrassment by going further. The hon. Gentleman will have noticed that I was proud to put out on my own Instagram the lapel pin that I am currently wearing.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with businesses in Northern Ireland on the implementation of the Windsor framework.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

3. Whether he has had discussions with the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy on improving the performance of Northern Irish universities as measured by the Times Higher Education impact rankings.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

Northern Ireland has outstanding universities and a high share of its population is educated to degree level. My ministerial colleagues and I have the pleasure of regularly engaging with Queen’s University Belfast and Ulster University, and we are proud to promote these institutions in the rest of the UK and internationally. I have glanced at the rankings to which the hon. Gentleman refers, and I am looking forward to hearing his further question.

[Mr Sheerman]

Is the Minister aware that when I was speaking on the deck of the Titanic centre only two weeks ago, I was thinking about him and the Conservative Government? Is he also aware that I was speaking to universities and local businesses that are deeply worried about the inability of universities and businesses to get answers from the Government to enable them to meet the targets of the very important impact assessment from the United Nations?

[Mr Baker]

As keen as I am to keep abreast of the hon. Gentleman’s thoughts, I was not aware of his particular insights on that occasion. Of course, we continue to work with the universities and the Northern Ireland civil service, and I am keen to work with him on the success of those universities. What we need above all, of course, is for an Executive to return so that we can work through some of the issues before us.

[Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

Staff and students at Queen’s University Belfast are doing some incredibly impressive work on cyber-security. What can Ministers do to ensure that that expertise is deployed to make us a more cyber-resilient nation?

[Mr Baker]

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend. I had the pleasure of visiting the national Centre for Secure Information Technologies, and I had a particularly interesting time testing some of its systems—I do not think I should comment any further on that particular experience. We are always keen to promote its work, and I am grateful to her for giving me the opportunity to say on the record that it does a fantastic job. Together with the National Cyber Security Centre, I am sure it will continue to promote cyber-security in the UK and, indeed, abroad.

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

4. What discussions he has had with the Administration in Northern Ireland on the potential impact of budgetary constraints on the delivery of public services in Northern Ireland.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

9. What discussions he has had with the Administration in Northern Ireland on the potential impact of budgetary constraints on the delivery of public services in Northern Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

Northern Ireland’s finances are unsustainable, I am sorry to say, and the Departments are facing difficult decisions to live within their budgets. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has directed the Departments, using powers under the Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023, to launch public consultations on measures to support budget sustainability and raise more revenue.

[Chris Stephens]

I thank the Minister for that answer. The Prime Minister announced on Monday that one of his five new key priorities is to improve education across these islands, yet at the same time his Government are starving Northern Ireland’s Department of Education of £300 million. We all know that the Government love fantasy economics, but surely the idea that cutting £300 million from education will improve it is a flight of fantasy too far even for this Government.

[Mr Baker]

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was right when he said that education is the closest thing we have in public policy to a silver bullet, but I say to the hon. Gentleman that the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council has acknowledged that Northern Ireland is currently receiving the funding it needs through a combination of the Northern Ireland block grant, locally generated revenue and additional UK Government funding packages. Those additional packages amount to some £7 billion in additional funding since 2014. I am afraid that the reality for schools in Northern Ireland is that they are long overdue reform, and the cost of running a divided education system is considerable. We need to see much more integrated education and much more efficiency, to ensure that children get the education they richly deserve.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Recent analysis shows that Northern Ireland’s budget over the past three years has been cut by £2.3 billion in real terms. On top of that slow decline, the UK Government have withheld millions in funding, forcing budget cuts on Northern Ireland Departments. Why does the Minister think it is okay to punish the people of Northern Ireland for the political impasse of their representatives?

[Mr Baker]

It is not our view that the people are being punished for an impasse. The reality is that the budget situation is difficult for all the devolved nations. The hon. Lady will know that in Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland, difficult decisions have to be taken in order to live within our means. This Government are taking the necessary steps to assist the Executive in balancing the books.

[Peter Grant]

Whoever is responsible for the current stalemate in Northern Ireland, it is not young people in the country’s schools. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) has pointed to the desperate shortfall in funding. Is the Minister aware that teachers in Northern Ireland have not had a pay increase for three years, so effectively they have taken a pay cut that is now over 20%? Can he explain how that will help to maintain the proud record of education in Northern Ireland that he spoke about a few minutes ago?

[Mr Baker]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that teachers have not hesitated to impress that point on me when I have been in Northern Ireland. It is a matter that we have under active consideration, but I am unable to satisfy him today.

[Sir Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend has mentioned additional UK Government funding, and an important element of that is levelling-up bids. We on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee note with concern that no Northern Ireland application was successful in the recent third phase. Can he assure me that a sum of funding is being set aside for Northern Ireland projects? If so, can he give us an indication of the likely amount being set aside?

[Mr Baker]

My right hon. and learned Friend is right to highlight the issue. A number of things have been said about this matter that are not the case. The money will be made available in Northern Ireland, and it has been set aside. If memory serves, it is about £15 million, but I would need to double-check—if I am incorrect, I will write to him. The reality is that we need decisions to be taken by a restored Executive, and the Government are keen to work with Northern Ireland Ministers to that end. I am grateful to him for highlighting this point and giving me the opportunity to say that the money will be spent in Northern Ireland.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

Following on from that question, communities across Northern Ireland are angry about the Government’s decision to exclude them from the latest round of levelling-up funding. The Government have said that is because Stormont is not sitting, but that is a poor excuse, because round 2 funding was allocated to 10 projects in Northern Ireland in January this year, when the Executive were also not in place. Only £120 million of the pot of £5 billion has been allocated to Northern Ireland so far. There is a huge additional need in communities, but millions is being held back, as the Minister has just said. Will the Secretary of State commit to reversing this unjust decision with immediate effect?

[Mr Baker]

The hon. Lady makes her point with great force but, as I just said to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland), the money will be spent in Northern Ireland. We are keen to work with Northern Ireland Ministers to that effect. When it comes to the overall level of money required, the hon. Lady will know that we have just put more than £700 million into PEACEPLUS, which will help support Northern Ireland. The reality is that we are working hard to ensure that Northern Ireland has the funding it needs, but in order to sort out the problems that Northern Ireland faces, we need a restored Executive and, I am afraid, revenue raising. We need to be working with Northern Ireland Ministers to make sure that we get the public service reform that is so urgently needed.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

[Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)]

May I associate myself with the Secretary of State’s remarks on the anniversary of the Birmingham pub bombings? Our thoughts continue to be with all who are affected by that tragedy to this day.

The UK Government, as we have just heard, are holding back levelling-up funding for Northern Ireland, ostensibly because of the lack of a functioning Executive. However, the UK Government are seemingly content to bypass the views of the Governments in place in Edinburgh and Cardiff in allocating levelling-up funding. Is the point of consistency not about a desire to level up, but just that there is a shortage of Conservative MPs in Northern Ireland who need to shore up their re-election prospects with public cash?

[Mr Baker]

It is easy to throw out a cheap political line like that, but as the hon. Member has heard me say to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland) and the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson), the reality is that that levelling up money will be spent in Northern Ireland. I can certainly assure him that none of that money has appeared in my marginal seat of Wycombe—even though the whole House will know it is undoubtedly the most deserving and most beautiful constituency in the nation.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

7. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of the funding for flood recovery in Northern Ireland announced on 8 November 2023.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

The floods have seen devastating consequences for businesses and households, so the Government have worked hard to come forward with a substantial package that is consistent with our approach across the UK. In the absence of an Executive, we are making up to £15 million of support available through the reallocation of existing Northern Ireland funding. We have worked closely with colleagues in the Northern Ireland civil service and the Treasury to ensure that the Northern Ireland civil service and local councils can provide affected businesses with the support they need.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I thank the Minister for that response. He will know that there are real concerns about whether that funding is adequate—I think he will hear about that in a moment—but can I ask about future adaptation and prevention? Such floods are often talked about as a once-in-a-century or once-in-a-lifetime experience, but we know that is not the case from England and that the communities will need protection for future occurrences.

[Mr Baker]

The hon. Member is absolutely right to raise that. She will know that such matters are mostly for the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland. That is why we are so keen to get the finances on a sustainable basis and achieve the long-term change that is needed. That, of course, includes having a strategic plan for adaptation. I hope to have the opportunity in this role to work with a Northern Ireland Executive to those ends.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I join the Secretary of State in his remarks about all those who lost their lives in the terrible Birmingham pub bombings. We remember them.

Last week, in Downpatrick, Newry and Portadown, I saw the terrible effects of the flooding on businesses and households, many of whom cannot get flood insurance and therefore face huge losses. Can the Minister assure us that once the initial £7,500 has been paid out to all businesses from the money that the Secretary of State announced during his visit, the Treasury will approve proposals for the use of the rest of the money quickly so that businesses affected can receive help and get back up and running again? If more is needed, will he provide it?

[Mr Baker]

The rest of the money is within the power of the Northern Ireland civil service to spend, because it is reallocated funding. Alas, the Treasury is not under my control—all I can say is that I look forward to the day.

[Hilary Benn]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Traders will expect to see the money spent. There will have to be a review of what happened during the floods to learn lessons for the future, including things such as the need for a warning system—there is not currently one in Northern Ireland—better flood defences, and flood protection, which will all need funding in the years ahead. In the continuing absence of the Executive, which is really needed at a time like this, does the Minister agree that there should be a review? Does the Northern Ireland civil service have the power to establish such a review? If not, will the Secretary of State do it?

[Mr Baker]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that a review is needed. I believe that it is possible for the Northern Ireland civil service to get on with that work under the powers that we have given it. If it transpires that that is not the case, I will write to him and put a copy of the letter in the Library. He is right—the insights he provides are wise and necessary—that we all want to work together to see a restored Executive, because it is for Northern Ireland Ministers to work with their Department for Infrastructure to deal with such matters.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

8. What assessment the Government have made of the potential merits of introducing a fiscal floor for Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

12. If he will have discussions with Cabinet colleagues on the potential merits of allocating additional funding for teaching assistants in Northern Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)]

Pay policy in Northern Ireland is devolved, and it is not for the Government to make those decisions. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would agree that such decisions should be made by the Northern Ireland Executive, with Ministers returned there.

[Jim Shannon]

I know that the Minister has a deep interest in the affairs of Northern Ireland, and in the wages of classroom assistants. Only last week, thousands of non-teaching staff went on strike from Northern Ireland schools. The action was called over an escalating row over pay, where thousands of people walked out. Will the Minister commit to investigating that in terms of the Barnett consequentials? Can he ascertain what can be done to support teaching assistants in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Baker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this issue. We are actively considering representations made by trade unions. He raises an important point, and I know that he understands that it is a matter for the Executive. I hope that one day, he and I will be able to celebrate some progress on these issues.

[Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)]

13. What steps his Department plans to take to help restore power sharing in Northern Ireland.