Jhoots Pharmacy

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Wednesday 15th October 2025 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I call our very own pharmacist, Sadik Al-Hassan.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a pharmacist for nearly 20 years and the MP of North Somerset, I have the dubious pleasure of having two Jhoots pharmacies in the town of Portishead in my constituency. I cannot say two operating pharmacies, because they have shuttered their doors, with reports of them not having paid their bills, their rent or their staff. As a pharmacist, I know that this affects the perception and view of community pharmacy up and down the country. What plans do the Minister and the Department have to ensure that bad actors in the pharmacy space—as Jhoots, in my opinion, appears to be—are dealt with more quickly and effectively under new legislation?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

Order. Questions should not be statements.

Oral Answers to Questions

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Tuesday 17th June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock]

The hon. Gentleman will have seen—and I am sure will welcome—the record uplift of £3.1 billion that we are putting into the pharmacy sector after years of underfunding, incompetence and neglect from the Conservative party. A big part of this is ensuring that the shift from hospital to community takes place, and we want pharmacists to be taking pressure off primary care. We have to make Pharmacy First work effectively, which means getting the allocation of funding right. That is what we are working on in terms of reforms. Now that we have the spending review and the package, that is what we will be delivering.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

3. If he will undertake a review of the potential impact of medicine supply chain shortages on community pharmacies.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

Increasing the resilience of the UK medical supply chain is a key priority. I regularly meet the team to routinely take action to mitigate supply issues, including requesting additional stock, identifying alternative global sources and issuing management advice. Although the Department has no plans to conduct a specific review, we constantly work to identify and take forward further actions to reduce the impact of medicine shortages, including targeted winter monitoring.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Having worked in community pharmacies for nearly 20 years, I have witnessed at first hand the pain that medicine shortages can cause North Somerset patients and their loved ones. Will the Minister meet me, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Steve Race) and other members of the all-party parliamentary group on pharmacy, to discuss the outcome of our inquiry into these shortages?

[Karin Smyth]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour on his dedicated career in community pharmacy, and thank him for the expertise that he brings to the work of the all-party parliamentary group to help Members understand the impact of this issue on patients and pharmacies. I am planning to hold a parliamentary event on the subject in the autumn, and I am keen to work with the APPG to make it a success for all Members.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Report stage
Friday 13th June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

Before entering this place last July as the Member for North Somerset, I had been a pharmacist for nearly 20 years. Pharmacists have a unique role in our healthcare system as the group of health professionals who specialise in drug usage and safety. That is where I wish to focus my thoughts today, and on which I offer the House my expertise.

Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have had the great benefit of learning from a number of international examples. In Australia, we have seen a carefully designed countrywide pharmacy system that has delivered self-administered assisted dying safely and with dignity. The evidence from that experience is greatly reassuring. Even in cases where the drug was not fully ingested, every patient who made use of the service died peacefully and without complications, with not a single complaint yet received from any of the families involved.

From Switzerland, we have learned from decades of practice, over which they have refined the substances and processes involved to the point where complications are now nearly unheard of. Their approach demonstrates that with care and rigorous regulation, drugs can offer an effective and compassionate route to end one’s life.

That brings me to new clause 13, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater). The clause outlines a comprehensive framework for the oversight and safety of substances involved in assisted dying. As is only right for life-ending drugs, the public expect the highest standards of transparency and the highest standards from manufacture to dispensing. As someone who has been involved in every facet of pharmacy for the past 20 years, I believe that the clause meets all our expectations. By strengthening safeguards and enhancing the workability of the Bill, new clause 13 ensures that healthcare professionals can act with clarity and confidence.

Amendment 72 is similarly important, and I believe it will provide much assurance to those in this place who are uncertain about whether they can support the Bill. By ensuring that all regulations made by the Secretary of State under new clause 13 are subject to the draft affirmative procedure, it will ensure that this place continues to play a central role in overseeing the safe and effective implementation of this legislation for years to come, and through our collective and continued scrutiny, it offers the opportunity for many millions of constituents who have contacted us on this issue to continue to have their voices heard and their concerns answered.

[Dame Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I rise to speak to new clause 14 and amendments (a) and (b) to that new clause. I am honoured to speak after the hon. Member for Rochdale (Paul Waugh). I also thank the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater) for working closely with us on the issue of banning advertising. Whatever our views on assisting terminally ill adults to end their lives—and I remain implacably against the potential harms that arise when our society and our imperfect state are given permission to help people kill themselves—I have to acknowledge that there was a majority on Second Reading in favour of the Bill and a majority for closing down debate in the last sitting on Report.

Thinking ahead to the possibility that this Bill might get on to the statute book, I hope that everyone participating in the debate will recognise that we should not allow the services of the organisations that will arise from the legislation to advertise on television, online, on posters, on TikTok or on any platform that our constituents may see.

We can all imagine a scenario where, if the Bill passes without the House agreeing to new clause 14, independent contractors and not-for-profit firms, and perhaps even the NHS, will be able to advertise to potential customers, for instance on afternoon television. Can you imagine a situation, Madam Deputy Speaker, where, while watching a repeat episode of “One Foot in the Grave”, an advert runs for a funeral plan company, and is then followed by an advert for an organisation offering services to make it easier to have an assisted death?

Members may think the situation I am painting is merely hypothetical, but in Belgium, in fact, the Government themselves are running online adverts featuring young, healthy women at a yoga class talking about how they are worried about granny’s situation, and discussing whether they have considered telling her about the option of assisted dying.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Spen Valley for tabling new clause 14. It is not perfect, but she and I have had a lot of discussion about the wording. I also support the intention behind amendments (a) and (b) to new clause 14. It is important that Ministers confirm—as we have heard before, and as I hope we will again today—that encouraging assisted dying under the Bill remains a crime under section 2 of the Suicide Act. However, this requires showing intent to encourage, and adverts might be framed so that they are not so intended, so a specific provision on advertising is needed in this legislation.

I am also concerned about the scope of some of the exceptions in unamended new clause 14. I am grateful that the example set out in subsection (2) does not refer to potential service users, but there is nothing preventing the Secretary of State from exercising Henry VIII powers to exempt them, and doing so would negate the point of the prohibition. I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm that the power will not be exercised to create exceptions for adverts targeted at potential service users.

It is the case, as the hon. Member for Rochdale mentioned, that a number of advert bans already exist on the face of legislation, such as the Cancer Act 1939, the Surrogacy Act 1985 and the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002. Such bans are set out clearly on the face of those Acts.

I hope the matter can be resolved. I hope the House today will, at a minimum, support new clause 14. I hope that the House will also support the strengthening amendments, which I endorse. I hope that Ministers will confirm that these powers will never be used to create an exemption to section 2 of the Suicide Act in order to partially allow encouragement of assisted dying, as I think it would defeat the whole point of the provision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Stafford]

I entirely agree. Some of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) may address that.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Gregory Stafford]

I will make a little progress, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment.

My amendment would require the Secretary of State to prohibit the use of medical devices designed to induce death by the administration of gas, such as the Sarco suicide pod, which has been in the press recently. That device bypasses medical oversight entirely and presents an ethical rupture in our current framework. If the Bill proceeds without safeguarding against such methods, we risk opening the door to a deeply troubling precedent—one that would erode professional accountability and compromise the integrity of end-of-life care.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

I would like to share my expertise as a pharmacist with the hon. Member. Drugs can be used for many indications and are quite commonly used in unlicensed situations, where there would be less evidence to support them than in the situation that we are discussing today with new clause 13: an idea that is incredibly well researched, practised and evidenced in multiple countries.

[Gregory Stafford]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I do not disagree that drugs are used for different things; that is not the thrust of the argument that I am making. What I am saying—relatively clearly, I hope—is that when the drugs we would potentially use in these situations have been used, there have been unintended consequences and side effects. We must ensure that the drugs we use, if the Bill passes, are absolutely effective in what they are intended to carry out: namely, the end of the life of the individual.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

I think one of the key problems with this form of intervention, compared with others, is that we cannot ask the patients afterwards how that felt. We cannot get their feedback, because they are dead. If we are going to give them things such as neuromuscular blockers or sedatives, we may not be able to tell what they feel. There are physiological ways in which we can monitor patients and get some idea—perhaps in their heart rate or blood pressure—but we will not be doing that. That is, therefore, one of the reasons for my tabling the amendments, to ensure that the drugs are properly regulated by the MHRA, so that we know that they have been properly tested on the purpose for which they are to be used.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Lizzi Collinge]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

I rise to speak in support of amendment (a) to amendment 77, which is in my name. I should also refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests about my involvement with the Royal College of Psychiatrists.

New clause 13, we are told, is a replacement for clause 34; I hope that Members have taken the time to compare the two. New clause 13 contains even more powers than clause 34. It follows the trend of this Bill: instead of more detail being added, more powers are added. It seems to me that the line is, “There are some issues that we’ll sort out later,” but that this place will not be involved in that “later”. What is particularly concerning is that the powers that the Bill creates contain no explicit limit or guiding principle by which they are to be exercised. Nor do we have the benefit of a policy paper from the Secretary of State saying how he intends to exercise those powers or how his successors will.

I believe that the provisions relating to “approved substances”—clause 25 and new clause 13—face a real problem. As Dr Greg Lawton, a barrister and pharmacist, told the Committee in written evidence, the lethal substances intended to end life are not medicinal products within the meaning of the Human Medicines Regulations 2012. That definition is itself derived from EU law, which states that

“the term ‘medicinal product’…must be interpreted as not covering substances whose effects merely modify physiological functions and which are not such as to entail immediate or long term beneficial effects for human health.”

That creates the real problem: if the substances are not medicinal products, why does the Bill provide that pharmacists are to be involved in their preparation and why would doctors be supplying them? New clause 13(4) seeks to get around the problem by giving the power to the Secretary of State to amend the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 so that the substances fit in. The impact assessment tells us that the Government have no plans to conduct or rely on the sort of scientific studies normally done for drug approvals or for the MHRA to be involved.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

As a pharmacist, I should say that the drugs to be used for assisted dying are commonly used in pharmacy now. It would be obvious for pharmacies to supply those drugs in some way, shape or form. I accept the hon. Member’s point about medicines being used, but he will, I hope, accept my point: how would the same studies used to approve treatments be used to approve their use for death?

[Robin Swann]

I think the hon. Gentleman said in an earlier intervention that those medicines would then be used off licence, to the risk of the prescribing doctor and the person using them. That is where the risk falls back on the individual rather than being covered by anything in the Bill. That is where my regret comes.

I understand the need to treat the substances as medicinal products in England and Wales if it is the will of the House to change the law here; what I cannot understand is why the law should change the situation for the rest of the United Kingdom. That is the basis of my amendment to amendment 77. The House is not voting for assisted dying in Northern Ireland, so it has no locus to change the definition of a medicinal product in Northern Ireland in order to accommodate this Bill, which we have been told applies to England and Wales only. Or is it the intention of the Bill’s sponsor or those behind her to extend it to Northern Ireland at a later date, using some of the Henry VIII regulations in it?

There is a further issue in Northern Ireland. We are still in part subject to EU law, and I would be interested to know whether the Government have considered that aspect. Can the Minister really change, by ministerial diktat, EU law in Northern Ireland when it comes to the use of these substances? If so, why is he not being granted such power in other areas of significance to Northern Ireland? Why only this? Why has so much Government time previously been spent on medicine regulation and supply for Northern Ireland? Why did the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar), as the Minister of State for Health, and I, as the Minister of Health in Northern Ireland, spend so much time on that? To that extent, I ask the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater) and the Minister: what engagement has there been with the Department of Health in Northern Ireland or the chief pharmaceutical officer for Northern Ireland? Or is this another part of the Bill that is being put in to meet the promoter’s needs without any background or engagement?

In conclusion, the application of those provisions to Northern Ireland also has implications for the conscience protection. If, as a result of regulations made under those provisions, pharmacists in Northern Ireland are required to be involved in the manufacture or preparation of such substances, they will not have the benefit of the conscience clause, as that clause has not been extended to Northern Ireland. I therefore oppose the extension of those provisions to Northern Ireland and Scotland. I will also oppose amendment 77 and ask hon. Members to support amendment (a) to amendment 77 in my name.

Draft Human Medicines (Amendments Relating to Hub and Spoke Dispensing etc.) Regulations 2025

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Monday 2nd June 2025 General Committees

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Stuart. I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a registered pharmacist, and previously a superintendent pharmacist of a distance-selling pharmacy. Although it is great to hear the hon. Member refer to distance-selling pharmacies in this august place, I remind him that he is representing the views of only one, admittedly large, distance-selling pharmacy, and that there is perhaps a wider range of views among distance-selling pharmacies.

[Dr Evans]

Of course, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point, with his august history as a pharmacist. My job in the Opposition is to raise these issues with Ministers for consideration. At the heart of my point is that, by choosing only one model and not offering two, we are closing down the opportunity for not only patients but businesses. If we want to invent in the NHS, that seems a bad way of doing it. It is why the last Government suggested that having a couple of models allows people to invest in, invigorate and improve our system, because otherwise, innovation will fall behind. That is at the heart of the questions I am posing to the Minister.

That leads me nicely on to my follow-up question. Does this mean that the Minister will choose not to introduce model 2? Is that likely to be in line in the future, and if so, when?

Those questions go to the principle of this. The last Government decided that there were two options to accommodate all different fields, be it dispensing GPs, community pharmacies, large-scale chemists and pharmacies or, indeed, distance-selling pharmacies. It is really important to take into account the whole environment we have in the health service. We will not divide the Committee, but we would like answers to those questions about the practicalities and policies behind the regulations.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

I start by reminding the Committee again about my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, which includes a number of pharmacy-related entries as a registered pharmacist, including my employment by PillTime prior to being elected to the House.

With that out of the way, may I say how genuinely thrilled I am to be here this evening? Although this may seem a very niche issue to many on the Committee, as a pharmacist for nearly 20 years, many of those spent in community pharmacy and latterly in online pharmacy, I can tell Members through first-hand experience of the difference that this legislation will make to thousands of community pharmacies struggling across the country.

Although I am incredibly thankful to the Government for finally unfreezing the funding settlement after a near decade-long squeeze under the Conservative Government, there remains great financial strain upon the sector and thus a clear need for modernisation to improve efficiencies. Innovation such as hub and spoke model 1 is how we enable that modernisation and unlock the efficiencies needed to ensure community pharmacy has a future. Having worked in pharmacies for the last two decades, I know the difference that implementing hub and spoke model 1 could quickly make to my fellow pharmacists not only in enabling greater efficiencies, but in creating the much-needed additional capacity to enable the delivery of Pharmacy First services. As we look at implementing the three big shifts, pharmacy has a clear role in delivering the preventive agenda, but it can only step up and fulfil that role if we give it the funding and capacity to do so.

In late March, Minister Kinnock ensured that community pharmacy received the largest uplift in funding across the whole of the NHS. Today, the Committee can deliver hub and spoke dispensing and thus create additional capacity. Having worked with innumerable stakeholders in the pharmacy sector to get this legislation moving again after its derailment last September, I can say with confidence that there is widespread support within the community pharmacy sector for hub and spoke model 1. It will finally provide the beloved village pharmacy a level playing field with the larger chains, which have been able to utilise these technologies for decades.

The benefits of the model extend far beyond the efficiency savings, with robust evidence of greater levels of patient safety by providing access to automation in the dispensing process. I thank the Minister for acting with haste greater than many in the sector expected when the implementation of hub and spoke was indefinitely delayed last September. Although I apologise for the interminable stream of letters, conversations in corridors and questions I have since sent his way, I am afraid I still have one more point that I would appreciate clarification on.

As I understand it, the VAT status of hub and spoke services is still to be explained. Could the Minister elaborate on what exactly the VAT status will be for any fees or charges between hub and spoke? From my understanding, it is currently treated as zero-rated,and there exists some uncertainty within the sector over whether that will still apply under model 1, and if not, what elements might be subjected to VAT and at a higher rate.

[The Chair]

It is worth noting that Members should refer to colleagues by their constituency, as opposed to their name, even when they are an august Minister.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman and I agree that we need to restrict the advertising of these products, because we do not want people, particularly young people and children, to start becoming addicted to nicotine. We agree on that. However, the Bill does not say an advert needs to promote a brand of nicotine product to be considered promotion or illegal under the Bill. It simply says “a nicotine product” or “a tobacco product”. I am keen to ensure the Minister clarifies that a doctor—I declare an interest as a doctor—or other health professional such as a pharmacist, like the hon. Member for North Somerset, will not find him or herself on the wrong side of the law for promoting vaping to individuals who smoke.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. Current medicine regulations do not allow products to be advertised, but do not get in the way of smoking cessation clinics that currently take place at GP surgeries or pharmacies. The amendments the hon. Lady is proposing are, therefore, not needed. In fact, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford suggests, they could be used as a loophole for advertising by an industry that has been shown to be very successful at finding ways around legislation to increase market share and the numbers of smokers and vapers.

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He comes to this debate with significant experience as a pharmacist himself. In bringing forward this amendment, it is not our intention to create a loophole. None of us wants to see children vaping or using nicotine products and developing an addiction they struggle to quit for the rest of their lives, with the associated costs to their health and their purses. However, I want the Minister to assure the Committee that he has considered the position of pharmacists and people who will legally be selling these products as a stop smoking device, perhaps in a hospital clinic or as a health professional, and made sure they will not be criminalised.

If we are to follow the chief medical officer’s advice—that vaping is not suitable for children but is suitable for adults who smoke as a harm reduction measure—and are to have that harm reduction process in place, which I believe is the Minister’s intention, it is important to consider how it will continue under these regulations. It is important to consider how pharmacists and other health professionals will be able to have discussions with their patients or clients in which they may wish to say, “Vaping is better for you,” and in so doing effectively promote the process—not a specific product, but the genre of products.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting)

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Gwynne]

As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West, we will take all this away and look at it in detail, and we will come back to Members. I am just about legally savvy enough to understand the point that the hon. Lady is making that a break clause or something like it would probably be required, because the coming into law of the Tobacco and Vapes Bill on Royal Assent is expected—it is not an act of God, and it will not come as a complete shock and surprise.

Finally, clause 133 allows us to extend all of part 6 to cover devices that enable a

“tobacco product to be consumed”

or

“an item which is intended to form part of such a device”,

but that are not in the Bill.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

On the conversation we were having previously, does the reference in clause 125(3) to a “specified date” mean that we can have an open discussion with the Secretary of State in the next stage of the Bill’s passage about deciding at what point the provision will apply to the contracts?

[Andrew Gwynne]

I will take that away, because I do not know the answer off the top of my head. In bringing forward regulations, the Secretary of State and I will want to ensure that we get these measures right. That is why there are statutory duties to consult on secondary legislation throughout the Bill. That will ensure that we get these measures and the details right, and that there will hopefully be no ambiguity about the different dates for the offences of printing, publishing and distributing advertisements or about those related to sponsorship deals and the production of the kits that come out of them. With that, I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 124 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 125 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Taiwo Owatemi.)

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 16th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

Would the hon. Lady’s amendments affect the financing of the actions of trading standards, and would more money need to go in to offset that?

[Liz Jarvis]

I do not know the answer to that, so I will refer that question to the Minister.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

They are your amendments.

[Liz Jarvis]

I am sorry; I do not know about that.

Our amendments would also promote transparency and accountability by giving those with skin in the game a direct role in deciding how fines are used to address public health priorities in their area. They would strengthen the Bill’s public health focus while retaining the integrity of its enforcement mechanisms.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

It is catching—it is the time of day, I think.

Paragraph 787 of the impact assessment says:

“We know that one of the main reasons children take up vaping is due to peer pressure…It is therefore worth considering that instances of vape vending machines in easily accessible areas might be an enabler for those who would not otherwise seek out a vape or who would be deterred by having to speak to an adult”.

Children would have to seek out an adult to make a purchase, because they have to go to a till or counter to get the vapes. Under the new legislation, that adult would look for ID, while a vending machine would provide a circumnavigation, so this is a sensible clause.

Most of us recognise that the vending machines currently selling disposable vapes have a finite lifetime, because this Government have banned them in the future under a statutory instrument in the competence of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. However, British American Tobacco has already stated that it is working on a product to sell the Velo brand—one of its nicotine pouches—via “age-gated vending machines” and is hiring for the product. Again, that is taken from the impact assessment.

That further highlights the need for a blanket ban on vending machines, particularly given that, as things stand, they are clearly advertising tools for vaping. Wherever the machines are placed, they are visible to the consumer, and the consumer needs to know what is in the vending machine in order to choose what to buy. Given the regulations appearing later in the Bill, we will be looking at the display of such products. It therefore seems nonsensical to have restrictions on the display of products, but to allow vending machines, which allow the display of products, in contravention of that. One aim of the Bill is to ensure that non-smokers do not begin vaping and get hooked on nicotine. These provisions strengthen that through age verification and on the marketing front.

I will now deal with some of the issues to do with mental health hospitals. My hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire said that the 2,400 vends were evidence of 2,400 positive choices. I am not sure that that is necessarily the case. The evidence is that 2,400 vapes were bought, but not that those individuals had ever smoked. We do not know whether the vending machines are being used by people who smoke or people who do not—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor comments from a sedentary position; if he wants to intervene, he is welcome to do so. A proportion of people out there smoke, and a proportion do not.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Mark. Based on the behaviour of vape companies now, which is similar to that of tobacco companies previously, this proposal would allow further expansion of vending machines and further display on vending machines in more and more places. Is that the point that the hon. Member is making?

[Dr Johnson]

In essence, in relation to clause 12, yes. I do not think that vending machines including tobacco and nicotine products or vapes are a good idea, and I moved a new clause for inclusion in the previous Bill because a ban on nicotine and vaping products in vending machines had not been included at the outset. Without such a measure, we will see an expansion of vending machines as a way of selling products to children and getting children addicted. It will be done as a way of making products more available to adults, but its effect will be that the products are more available to children. I do not want to see such products available to children, because they are clearly harmful for them. All the medical evidence we have had states that clearly.

With regard to individuals in mental health hospitals, some may be there as voluntary patients, and some under a mental health section. When someone’s liberty has been taken from them because they are being treated for a mental health condition, we need to be careful that we are not restricting them in other ways in which we would not restrict other people. That is a fair point to make.

We also have to be mindful of the staff. As we go through the Bill, the Minister will rightly be looking at exposure to vaping inside hospitals and at extending the tobacco regulations that limit smoking in public indoor places to cover vaping in indoor public spaces. Indeed, he and you, Sir Roger, will have seen the signs placed in the Tea Room by the Speaker, who rightly wants to see that we do not have vaping there. The public do not want vaping in their tea rooms or in the public domain either, so that is the right thing to do. We need to consider that there are staff and other patients in mental health hospitals who may not wish to vape and should not be inadvertently and unnecessarily exposed to vaping products.

I do not support the idea that 2,400 vends means that this is a positive choice. For some of these people, vaping may have been a positive change from smoking, but for others it may have been a decision to vape.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

I supported clauses 10 and 11 because I agree with the Government that under no circumstances should children be taking up vaping. I was heartened by the Minister’s comments on the principle of clause 10, the general point about evidence and balance when it came to vaping, and treating vaping differently from cigarettes and tobacco products.

However, I cannot quite go along with the Government on clause 12, because there they have the balance slightly wrong. I accept that vape vending machines should be prohibited, for the same reason that tobacco and cigarette vending machines were prohibited: vending machines cannot provide for age verification. That balance is well struck. However, I do not support the related measure for nicotine product vending machines. The Minister may seek to correct me, but I am not aware that any of the products described by the shadow Minister, such as nicotine patches and gum, is used recreationally or is attractive to children.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Does the hon. Gentleman not think that, if other items are restricted, people will end up buying those items? We are going to restrict what is available, and that will surely open them up as an avenue if we do not close it now.

[Jack Rankin]

I do not think that nicotine products are attractive to children in any way, shape or form today. My concern is that, as the Government are seeking to stop children using them by restricting them in vending machines—I do not think they should be using them—

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Rankin]

I mean the former: nicotine patches and gum. The stated intention of the Bill, supported by the House on Second Reading, is to move to a smokefree generation, so it would seem sensible to make nicotine products pretty widely accessible, in so far as they do not attract children. We should largely welcome a vending machine selling nicotine patches or gum if the intention is to move to a smokefree generation. I do not think the Government have the evidence and the balance quite right on that point, so I cannot support clause 12 as it is currently written.

I would make a similar case in support of the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire. She has read to us evidence from a relevant professional, who has a legitimate concern. It might be sensible, in the interest of broader public health, to have such a vending machine. If the Government are concerned about evidence and balance, those are exactly the kinds of voices they should be listening to, and they should accept the amendment, which is very much in line with their intent.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Does the hon. Gentleman have any evidence that there is a restriction on access to stop smoking products now? In my experience as a pharmacist, I have not seen that.

[Jack Rankin]

I do not think I can talk to that point, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for making it.

We have to find a balance. The Government can use their majority in the House to cast aside my hon. Friend’s amendment, but it seems to me that it is in line with the principle of the Bill, so it is a sensible thing to do.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Johnson]

Once again, Sir Roger, I am very grateful for your guidance to the Committee. I was explaining the change in amendment 17, and my hon. Friend, like the very wise chap that he is, brings something forward that I had not really considered, despite my attention to this Bill over some time—and Members will be very much aware it is something that I have taken a long interest in.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: some people argue that the Bill creates two tiers of adults—some who are allowed to smoke and some who are not. In fact, that is exactly what it does. Eventually, of course, people get older and older. I saw that the oldest person in the world sadly passed on in the last week or so, and she was 116. I am not quite sure about the age of the current oldest person in the world, but I suspect their age is similar. Therefore, I suspect that it will take quite a long time before my hon. Friend’s ideal of all adults being treated the same is once again achieved. I suspect that I will certainly be long gone before it does, and I anticipate that the rules we are proposing will last the rest of our lifetimes here today.

This modification shifts the approach from creating a tobacco-free generation to implementing a uniform age limit that applies universally, regardless of the buyer’s birth year. That simplifies enforcement because sellers would need only to confirm whether a buyer is under 25, and they would not need to do the mental arithmetic in their head that says, “Okay, that is their birthday, but how old would that make them?” The Minister, in his questions on Tuesday, raised the point repeatedly with one of our witnesses about whether it is simpler to have a date of birth or an age. My understanding is that a lot of tills nowadays will give a prompt to the person working behind the till to say, “If you are born before or after this date, that is where the 18 cut-off is.”

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Johnson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the promotion—I shall mention it the Chief Whip and see how that goes!

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

My training and experience as a pharmacist over two decades involved working with systems such as tills that teach people how to ask for age verification. Does the hon. Lady agree that the Minister is spot on and that actually this is a moot point, because the software, support and training is already there across the country, including in independent shops, and age verification is quite easy to do?

[Dr Johnson]

I think it is straightforward to have an age and a date of birth to check. It could become more confusing if we ended up with a range of age-restricted products and the age for each of them was different, as that would require people to look at a whole spreadsheet of dates of birth.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Software systems I have worked with already have the facility to differentiate by product, including for razor blades and alcohol products. That already exists across retail and in a variety of retail premises.

[Dr Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman’s intervention highlights the fact that in Parliament we benefit from the experience of so many different people. Each of us comes to this place with our own history, backstory and experience of working in a whole range of different professions and jobs. That is one of the reasons why we go through these Bills line by line. It may seem to some extent slow and plodding to go through things so methodically, but that means that each person can, as he has, bring their experience forward and explain the ways that tills and such things work, which is really beneficial. I thank him for that intervention.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Sadik Al-Hassan Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)]

I declare an interest as a public health consultant and a member of the British Medical Association.

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

I declare an interest as a practising pharmacist. [Interruption.]

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I cannot hear everything because of that noise, but I am co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Cooper]

Q My question is around inequalities. How effective or otherwise do you think the Bill will be in reducing inequalities? Are there any areas of the UK that have specific challenges related to tackling smoking prevalence that you would like to highlight?

Professor Sir Michael McBride: That is a really important question. We talked before about the blatant marketing of tobacco and vapes. There is also the preying of the industry on those more socioeconomically deprived areas.

If we look at smoking rates in those more socio- economically deprived areas, they are two to three times higher than in less socioeconomically deprived areas. If we consider the death rate from smoking-related conditions, it is twice as high. If we look at lung cancer rates, they are two and a half times as high in those areas. That is a direct consequence of the smoking incidence in more socioeconomically deprived areas. The health inequalities associated with the consumption of tobacco are significant and great.

If we look at smoking in pregnancy and all its consequences in terms of premature birth, stillbirth and low birthweight, we see that smoking among women from more socioeconomically deprived areas is four and a half times higher than among those in less socioeconomically deprived areas. The health inequalities argument and the case to be made for addressing that within the Bill is huge. This is an opportunity that we must not pass up to narrow the adverse health consequences.

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: It is my very clear view that the provisions within the Bill will help us to tackle some of the inequalities associated particularly with tobacco smoking. If I look at the situation in Scotland, 26% of our lowest socioeconomic group are smokers, compared with 6% of our highest socio- economic group.

The gradient that Sir Michael has spoken about in terms of the subsequent tobacco-related disease that those groups then experience is really quite marked, whether that be cardiovascular disease or the numerous cancers associated with smoking. All of those can be addressed by trying to tackle the scourge of these tobacco companies preying on more vulnerable groups within our society, whether that be those who experience socioeconomic circumstances that are much more difficult and challenging for them, or whether that be particular groups that are more likely to experience mental health conditions.

All of these must be tackled; people must be assisted not to develop addictions that lead to lifelong smoking and problems with their health thereafter. I am very clearly of the view, both in terms of smoking and, it is important to say, of vaping, that the targeting of those groups that creates those inequalities within our society is something that this Bill can address.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q Thank you for the evidence submissions so far. In your opinion, will the Bill’s restriction of flavours for vaping products prevent the appeal to children and ex-smokers, if they can no longer access such products?

Sir Francis Atherton: The issue of flavours and colours speaks to the issue of marketing towards children that we have been speaking about so far. I have no reason to believe that taking away colours and flavours that are appealing to children would remove vaping as a stop smoking tool. It remains an important tool in the box that we have to have alongside nicotine replacement therapy and alongside education, and it will remain an important tool to stop people smoking.

The prime aim here, of course, is to stop the marketing towards children. If you think back to when tobacco was advertised in shops, we saw big gantries in shops, and what we have seen in recent years is that we now have vape gantries in almost all our shops. Taking away that marketing opportunity towards children—the colourful and flavoursome displays—can only be of benefit to reducing childhood vaping and the nicotine dependency that comes as a consequence of that.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: Let us be really clear about this: the vaping industry will claim it is not marketing to children while putting in flavours, colours, cartoons and placements that are clearly aimed at children. You just look at them—you do not need anything else—and you see the rates going up in children. It is very clear that the industry is doing that, and it needs to be tackled.

Professor Sir Michael McBride: If you look at products with names “gummy bear” and “rainbow surprise”, who are they actually aiming those products at? Our Public Health Agency did research with more than 7,500 children and young people in Northern Ireland, using focus groups and online surveys. Some 77% of them told us that what appealed to them about vapes was the colours and flavourings. The public consultation had the strongest and highest support for banning flavours and colourings. More than 75% of the population in Northern Ireland supported that ban. We should not delude ourselves about the exploitative marketing of those products.

In terms of next steps, it is really important that those who want to use vapes to quit smoking, as Sir Frank has said, can continue to access them. The Government undoubtedly will consult carefully on those measures to ensure that we do not—as the question is rightly exploring—restrict access or discourage individuals from using vapes to quit smoking.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q Comparatively, how addictive is nicotine in tobacco and vapes compared with other products? I seem to remember that it is harder to get off nicotine than methadone. Is that true?

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: I am not sure we have the data or the evidence to back that up, but I have certainly heard people claim that in the past about the addictive nature of nicotine. One of the important aspects of this issue is the very rapid re-emergence of that addiction by small exposures after people have managed to quit. Certainly we should be in no doubt about the addictive nature of nicotine and the risks—going back to the harmful effects of passive smoking or being in the company of people who smoke—associated with the re-emergence of that addiction and of people’s tobacco smoking habits. That is something very real. Therefore, the best protection is never to start in the first place. If we can prevent people from taking those first nicotine products and prevent the addiction from forming in the first place, there is obviously a much greater chance that they are not going to suffer the health consequences.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q It is clear, from the comments made about display and advertising, that child vaping is an issue that needs to be tackled; I think it is an issue that many of our constituents and many people in the country recognise. Especially for adult smokers, do you believe that there will be any impact from the display and packaging restrictions on the effectiveness of vapes as a tobacco cessation tool?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: Our view is that the benefits of preventing people who are not currently vaping, particularly children, from vaping through what is proposed in this Bill significantly exceed that risk. However, that risk exists; we all accept that. To go back to a previous point I made, that is why having these powers gives us the advantage that if, as a result of where we get to—remembering that this change will come after consultation and there will be secondary legislation going through Parliament—it looks as though we have gone too far, it will be possible to ease back. Our view, though, is that at this point in time, and subject to what the consultation shows, the net benefit in public health terms is positive for the prevention of children starting smoking, over any risk for adults.

The area of greatest uncertainty is on flavours. There is some genuine debate around that, with a range of different views from people who are quite seriously trying to wrestle with this problem—rather than doing marketing masquerading as wrestling with this problem—but in all other areas, most people think that the benefit outweighs the risk.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q How do you think the Bill will address health inequalities? We have heard that smoking is more prevalent among poorer individuals than among richer individuals. Will the Bill help address that?

Sheila Duffy: We see that socioeconomic inequalities and smoking rates are closely patterned. ASH Scotland’s work with low-income communities in Scotland suggests that people regret beginning tobacco, but find it hard to move away from it. It also identified the dangers of less regulated novel products such as e-cigarettes in enticing their children and grandchildren into the kind of addiction that they themselves so regret. One of the real strengths in the Bill is the ability to bring some of these tobacco-related products into the kinds of control and regulation that we have fought so hard over decades to get for tobacco products.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q Do you think the introduction of a generational ban on smoking could cause an increase in the use of other nicotine products, such as vapes or smoke-free tobacco?

Hazel Cheeseman: The purpose of the legislation is to reduce smoking. The Department’s projections in the impact assessment clearly show that, even on conservative estimates, it will achieve that goal over time. So the question then is, does that lead to displacement into other products? Given that the legislation is comprehensive in relation to tobacco products, it is to be hoped that it will not lead to displacement into other kinds of tobacco products, but it might lead to some displacement into other nicotine products. As the chief medical officer said in the previous session, it is unlikely that nobody will take up smoking in the affected age group. Some people will; some of the 15-year-olds who will be affected by this legislation have already tried smoking. So we need there to be a legal nicotine product that those people will be able to use, with the restrictions that are coming into place in relation to vaping and other nicotine products in this legislation. One would not expect the overall consumption of nicotine to be greater than it otherwise would be, if that makes sense, but there may be some displacement into other nicotine products as we transition away from smoked tobacco and from tobacco being used widely in that group.

Sheila Duffy: Dual use is a real concern in Scotland. Nearly 43% of people are dual-using cigarettes and e-cigarettes. The international longitudinal cohort evidence clearly shows a higher risk of progression to using combustible tobacco for young people that start vaping. I think this legislation has the real potential to move us away from that.

Suzanne Cass: We also have to remember that the killer in the room is tobacco. The generational ban is the most crucial part of this legislation that we need to push forward. Therefore, we need to keep our eye on the ball when we are looking at the health impact, and the potential public health impact, of this Bill, and to make sure that we focus on driving down that tobacco use.

Naomi Thompson: Just to reiterate what Suzanne has said, tobacco is the issue. The impact of tobacco was repeated multiple times in the previous session. If young people start, they continue, and they find it very difficult to stop. Therefore, if we can sort that, it is a great first step. There may be a small move towards other nicotine products, but we can work on that. Tobacco is the one that kills.

[The Chair]

Can I just, as is my job, remind everybody that we are finishing at 10.55 am, which is in about 15 minutes or thereabouts? I have six people who wish to ask questions, so can I ask that the questions and responses are as tight as possible? Thanks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

Q In a nutshell, how important is it that the measures in the Bill are passed?

Dr Ian Walker: Critical. Without a doubt, there is no single bigger action that you could take to reduce the cancer burden on the country. The cancer burden sits at a very personal, individual level for people getting their own diagnosis; it sits at a family level and at a friend level. It also sits at an economic level for the country and at an NHS level, in terms of the burden that smoking-related illnesses cause for the NHS.

From my perspective, this is a world-leading piece of legislation. It is absolutely an opportunity for generational change and a long-term legacy that will see our children and grandchildren never able to legally buy tobacco in the UK and never exposed to the harms that that would cause them.

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q Is there any research into passive vaping risks to bystanders, who do not have a choice if someone is vaping next to them?

Sarah Sleet: As I said earlier, the research evidence around vaping harms is currently very poor. There has not been enough. It takes a long time to build up evidence of things that are generally very progressive rather than having an immediate impact, so we will have to wait. We need to put that in place, and we are going to have to wait to get that evidence back.

We have had anecdotal reports from our beneficiaries and those who contact the organisation about places—particularly in closed spaces, but sometimes outside—where there is a concentration of vaping. It is that classic thing where you go through a door and suddenly everybody around you is vaping immediately outside it. We get reports that that exacerbates people’s asthma and sometimes their COPD, but they are anecdotal. We really need the evidence base to support what is happening.

Dr Ian Walker: The only thing that I would add specifically from a cancer perspective is that although there is very little long-term evidence, because the products have not been around long enough and the cumulative effects have not been seen yet, what we do know, based on the current evidence, is that vapes are far less harmful than cigarettes. You heard the advice earlier that if you smoke it is better to vape or take other nicotine products, but if you do not smoke you should not vape, because we do not know yet what the long-term effects will be. In particular, we are very light on evidence on what the impact of vaping will be on bystanders.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q Do you believe that there is a substantial health impact on people working in certain sectors who unavoidably encounter second-hand smoke in the course of their employment? What impact will the measures in the Bill have on that?

Dr Ian Walker: The impact of the Bill will reach every sector, on the face of it. Obviously the aim of making a smoke-free UK will impact everybody in whichever sector, but I think you are probably referring specifically to increasing smoke-free places, or places where smoking is not allowed. For people who are exposed unavoidably by their working environment, of course this will be good news and a good expansion.

As you heard from Sarah, we did not quite get to hospitality in the Bill, but it will be interesting, as we go through consultation, to review the evidence and understand the sentiment. Clearly, people working in hospitality are likely to be exposed to smoke in their work environment, even if that is outside. The Bill makes important steps in increasing the number of smoke-free places and reducing exposure to tobacco smoke.

Sarah Sleet: As the CMO said earlier, it is about the duration as well as the density of smoking. If you work in hospitality in those outdoor spaces, the duration will clearly be longer; if you work on a coach concourse, you will be exposed for longer. It is really important to remember that.

Another issue is inequality. There is a concentration of working lives that are more exposed to second-hand smoking, which is exacerbated by inequality.