Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Mary Kelly Foy Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sadik Al-Hassan (North Somerset) (Lab)]

I declare an interest as a practising pharmacist. [Interruption.]

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I cannot hear everything because of that noise, but I am co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

I declare an interest as vice chair of the APPG on smoking and health.

Examination of Witnesses

Professor Sir Chris Whitty, Sir Francis Atherton, Professor Sir Michael McBride and Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I have about three minutes left, so I will ask Mary Kelly Foy to ask a very brief question with a very short answer, because we will be finishing spot on 10.25 am.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Q Do you have any view on how restricting vapes in public places, which is obviously a very welcome power, should be implemented so that it does not deter smokers from switching to vapes and they do not relapse back into smoking cigarettes?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I will suggest that Sir Frank takes this question, because it is his very last answer to a parliamentary question; he is about to stop as chief medical officer, so he is going out on a high.

Sir Francis Atherton: What the Bill does is to simplify matters, making it as simple as possible: a smoke-free place is a vape-free place as well. That does not take away people’s ability to go into a place where smoking and vaping are allowed, but it helps to disentangle the confusion that currently exists about where people can legitimately use those products. It is a simplification that can only help to lead, in the long term, to that reduction that we need. In Wales, 13% of people continue to smoke. Our ambition is to get to 5% by 2030; we will struggle to get there, but this Bill will help us to get there.

[The Chair]

I am afraid that that draws this particular session to a close. I thank our witnesses, Sir Chris Whitty, Sir Francis Atherton, Sir Gregor Smith and Sir Michael McBride, for their attendance and for their helpful contributions, and I thank Members for their helpful questions. Thank you very much.

Examination of Witnesses

Hazel Cheeseman, Sheila Duffy, Suzanne Cass and Naomi Thompson gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Bool]

Q I want to follow up on that point, because clause 12 of the Bill will actually include a ban on vending machines for vaping, but I know that there have been mental health trusts that have said that, actually, they would call for those to be exempted. Is that one of the exemptions that you would perhaps go for, and actually allow those vending machines in hospitals?

Suzanne Cass: Absolutely. I think we need to consider the vulnerable smoker at the heart of this and how they are managing to abstain from that addiction. It comes back to that addiction all the time. With smoking, nicotine is such an addictive substance that it is very difficult just to tell somebody that they cannot do it. You need to give them the right support, as well as the support that they want. When it comes to choice, that is where we need to be looking at what their choices are and how they choose to move away from that deadly tobacco use.

Hazel Cheeseman: On the mental health settings, we have done a lot of work in England with mental health trusts, and vending machines have been one way in which they have been facilitating access to vapes in quite a large number of mental health trusts. It is certainly something that we would be interested in looking at, because it will make it a bit more challenging for them to implement smoke-free policies in mental health settings if the vending machine rule applies across the NHS estate.

Also, going back to Dr Cooper’s question, in mental health settings and those places with vulnerable smokers, vapes have been really important in England in facilitating. We do not have legislation in relation to smoke-free grounds in England, but obviously it is the policy across the NHS estate that they are smoke free. Allowing vaping, particularly in those mental health settings, has been very facilitative of creating smoke-free grounds and supporting those people to maintain their smoke- free status as they move out of mental health settings as well.

Sheila Duffy: Scotland already has a ban on e-cigarettes in vending machines and has had for some years.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Q I notice in your submission that you have a recommendation:

“The government should make good on their pledge to publish a ‘roadmap to a smokefree country’…with a strong focus on tackling inequalities.”

I am from the north-east region, where we have high deprivation and high smoking prevalence. It is the only region that has a clear vision—if you like—and declaration from Fresh and the directors of public health for how to achieve a smoke-free country. Could you explain a bit more why we need that vision and that strategy going forward?

Hazel Cheeseman: The legislation is fantastic; it is world-leading and brilliant, and it will really set us on that path toward being a smoke-free country. However, it will not be the last word in how that is achieved. We have 6 million smokers across this country, and we need to ensure that all of our agencies are lined up to do the job that they need to do to help those people stop smoking—the NHS, local government and integrated care boards across the system need to have the right approach. We also need to ensure that the funding is there to do that too. The Government have committed to the funding in stop-smoking services in local government, but we also need to see funding in mass media campaigns. The chief medical officer was talking earlier about people’s waning understanding of the harms of second-hand smoke. One way to address that would be to go back on TV and radio and explain to people what the harms of second-hand smoke are. That package of measures alongside this legislation would really help us to accelerate progress.

The Bill will massively raise the saliency of the harms of smoking with the public—there is no doubt about that. There has been, and there will continue to be, a strong public debate on the measures in this Bill. By really riding the wave of that public understanding through that coherent strategy and that investment, we could really see smoking rates start to drop, particularly in those disadvantaged populations where we continue to have persistently high levels of smoking.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q By restricting vaping products in this Bill in the same ways that tobacco products are currently restricted—be that packaging, display or potentially flavourings, as we discussed with the CMOs earlier—do you think that this will lead to greater misconceptions by the public and, quite crucially, current smokers about the relative harm between the two products?

Suzanne Cass: We obviously have an issue when it comes to the understanding of and the misconceptions around the harms of vaping. In particular, the most worrying stats are among smokers considering them as harmful as or more harmful than tobacco. That is that a significant issue. This legislation allows us to reset the clock and promote these products as smoking cessation products, using health professionals to promote them and getting the right language around them. Rather than their being seen as a recreational toy, they can be seen as a product that is going to help people to quit smoking. When it comes to the positioning of these products, it is essential to readdress those misconceptions and re-place this product.

On standardised packaging, what we did with tobacco was put it in the ugliest packaging you could ever imagine. We are not talking about that when it comes to vaping products; we are talking about plain packaging—something that is informative but not necessarily attractive to young people. There is a big difference between something that is repulsive and something that is not attractive. That is where we see the difference, and that is where we see this legislation coming into its own and allowing us to reset and to have that different conversation.

Hazel Cheeseman: I am sure we will tease more of it out through the consultation process that will follow this legislation, but some of the early research that has been done has indicated that you can, to some extent, have your cake and eat it on this. If we remove some of the attractive branding elements on packaging, which we know appeal to children, that does reduce the products’ appeal to children, but it does not damage their appeal to adult smokers and it does not damage harm misperceptions. We can progress with this legislation, via the consultation and looking properly at the evidence, to make sure that we get the balance right.

There are also provisions in the Bill to allow public health bodies to do marketing and public health messages around vapes as a smoking cessation tool. It will be important that the Department of Health and Social Care and the Advertising Standards Authority work with public health bodies to make sure that they have the right guidance to be able to do that and to give smokers directly the right information about how vapes can be used as a cessation tool.