Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Sarah Bool Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Bool (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

My mother has some shareholdings in British American Tobacco, but that links to my parents’ having worked for Imperial Tobacco 50 years ago.

[Euan Stainbank (Falkirk) (Lab)]

I am an officer of the responsible vaping all-party parliamentary group.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q Thank you; that is helpful. My other question is about the difference between indoor and outdoor exposure to smoke. In this country, we have had laws preventing smoking in certain indoor spaces for many years now. How does exposure to smoke inside differ from exposure to it outside? Imagine sitting next to someone smoking on a park bench and someone smoking at a neighbouring table in a restaurant—what are the comparative health risks between those two?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I think the first thing to say is that second-hand smoke is a very serious problem. I think that is underestimated among the general public because, if I am honest, the cigarette industry has been very successful in muddying the waters on this.

There are three key things that really make a difference. The first is the degree of concentration of the smoke. The second is the duration of exposure—let us say you sit next to someone for half an hour; the effect is more significant than if it had been just a couple of minutes. The third is the vulnerability of the people being exposed to it. That is one of the things that this Bill will help with.

Over 88% of the population do not smoke. There are roughly 6 million smokers still. There are significantly more people in the UK, non-smokers, who have medical vulnerabilities that mean that the smoke is particularly dangerous to them, perhaps acutely. They can be exposed to smoke and have an asthma attack, and that lands them in hospital. In severe cases it could land them in a very dangerous situation. The situation may also be chronic—for example, people living with diabetes already have a disease that is going to accelerate things like cardiovascular disease. If people are smoking on top of that, it will accelerate those things still further.

Although outdoor smoking is less in terms of passive smoking than indoor smoking, in most situations if you are close to someone, exposed for a long period or vulnerable, it can have very significant health impacts. In broad terms, if you can smell smoke, you are being exposed to significant amounts of smoke, and that is one of the things that the Bill is aiming to address.

I would like to make one additional point: the cigarette industry has been extraordinarily good at trying to pretend that to be pro-smoking is to be pro-choice. Nothing could be further from the truth. Smoking is highly addictive. Most smokers wish they had never started and want to quit, but they are trapped by addiction. Their choice has been taken away deliberately by these companies as part of their policy. And if you are talking about second-hand smoke, indoors or outdoors, the person downwind or next door has no choice at all at any point. They are exposed to the risks with no advantages at all. If you are pro-choice, you should be firmly in favour of the principles of the Bill. Frank, do you want to add to that?

Sir Francis Atherton: The only thing I would add is that there is no safe level of smoking. As Chris says, if you smell it, you are breathing it in, and there is no safe level. Obviously, indoors is worse than outdoors. The dose response is a big issue, but there is no safe level. I think that is a really important point.

[Sarah Bool]

Q You mentioned that 88% of the population do not smoke, and the numbers are now declining. Can I ask why you supported a generational ban as opposed to raising the age from 18 to 21 or even 25? It is predominantly younger people whom we want to stop smoking.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I might ask Michael to come in. I can have the first go and Michael might want to come in after that, because this is a critical point. Historically, the cigarette industry, despite what it claims, has always targeted children. It always deplores it in public, but if you look at its internal documents you discover that that is what it has been aiming to do. Most people, the great majority, start as teenagers before they are 20—you are, of course, correct. To refer back to Dr Johnson’s original question, the same thing is now being done with vaping and exactly the same playbook is being followed. You get people at their most vulnerable and you addict them. That is the aim.

However, were we to stop at, let us say, 21, the cigarette industry, which is extraordinarily good at regrouping around whatever regulations are in place, would simply regroup around 21. To go back to my very first point about addiction, if you are a 21-year-old and you start, you become addicted and then you wish you had stopped. That does not change the fact that your choice has been taken away. So the logic of saying 21, 25 or 30—various people have looked at various ages—is no better than the logic of the current situation.

The advantage of the current model, which was first put forward by Conservative Prime Minister Mr Sunak, to whom we should all pay great tribute on the basics of the Bill, was to ensure that current children are not addicted and do not have their choice taken away, but that rights are not taken away from existing smokers. That is the reason why this particular model was chosen. Michael, do you want to add to that? You are on mute.

[The Chair]

We cannot hear; we will come back to you in a moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Cooper]

Q Thank you so much to our witnesses for being here. I just want to take you back to a conversation you were having with a previous questioner about smoking cessation in hospitals. Could you give us your thoughts about vaping being available in hospitals, to allow people in hospitals who are quitting smoking, or who want to continue quitting, to continue vaping? Our CMOs talked about a smoke-free place being a vape-free place. What are your thoughts about vaping in hospitals—where it is a smoke-free place—and about access to vapes?

Suzanne Cass: In Wales, we have obviously implemented smoke-free legislation. We have seven different health boards and various approaches to that legislation when it comes to the implementation alongside vaping. When it comes to indoor spaces, there is already a huge amount of compliance with voluntary bans. People generally do not smoke in indoor spaces, so there is already that public consensus in those areas. When it comes to the outdoor spaces, there is not necessarily a consistent approach across Wales regarding smoking and vaping, which can cause confusion among the public.

I think that we need to be considering this very carefully, in terms of providing as much support to smokers as possible in these areas. We need to be considering exemptions to vape-free spaces, particularly in smoke-free spaces in hospital settings, mental health units and places where vulnerable patients who smoke are situated. That would be the message: we need to really consider those exemptions.

Sheila Duffy: In Scotland, we put medicinally therapeutic products front and centre with smoking cessation. Smoking cessation is vital, but we need to remember that there is no medicinally licensed e-cigarette product anywhere in the world, and that medicinally licensed products have a very different set-up. With e-cigarettes, you are talking about more than 30,000 different variants listed with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, and four or five generations of devices, with very different health profiles.

Most of the comparisons are made with the toxins in tobacco, but there are different additional toxins in e-cigarettes, and there is new research—for example, AI modelling—on the impacts of heating some of the chemicals in e-cigarettes to vapour point, where they produce highly toxic outcomes. We need to bear that in mind. We also need to look at the research on air quality, because e-cigarettes conclusively contain the kind of particulates that we worry about for air quality and that cause harm to health. I think that that is an issue arguing for vape-free spaces.

In Scotland, we are supporting people to quit smoking in whatever way works for them—we are supporting individuals—but we are actively recommending only medicinally licensed products, because they have that context of appropriate use, safety and quality control, which e-cigarettes do not have.

[Sarah Bool]

Q I want to follow up on that point, because clause 12 of the Bill will actually include a ban on vending machines for vaping, but I know that there have been mental health trusts that have said that, actually, they would call for those to be exempted. Is that one of the exemptions that you would perhaps go for, and actually allow those vending machines in hospitals?

Suzanne Cass: Absolutely. I think we need to consider the vulnerable smoker at the heart of this and how they are managing to abstain from that addiction. It comes back to that addiction all the time. With smoking, nicotine is such an addictive substance that it is very difficult just to tell somebody that they cannot do it. You need to give them the right support, as well as the support that they want. When it comes to choice, that is where we need to be looking at what their choices are and how they choose to move away from that deadly tobacco use.

Hazel Cheeseman: On the mental health settings, we have done a lot of work in England with mental health trusts, and vending machines have been one way in which they have been facilitating access to vapes in quite a large number of mental health trusts. It is certainly something that we would be interested in looking at, because it will make it a bit more challenging for them to implement smoke-free policies in mental health settings if the vending machine rule applies across the NHS estate.

Also, going back to Dr Cooper’s question, in mental health settings and those places with vulnerable smokers, vapes have been really important in England in facilitating. We do not have legislation in relation to smoke-free grounds in England, but obviously it is the policy across the NHS estate that they are smoke free. Allowing vaping, particularly in those mental health settings, has been very facilitative of creating smoke-free grounds and supporting those people to maintain their smoke- free status as they move out of mental health settings as well.

Sheila Duffy: Scotland already has a ban on e-cigarettes in vending machines and has had for some years.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Q I notice in your submission that you have a recommendation:

“The government should make good on their pledge to publish a ‘roadmap to a smokefree country’…with a strong focus on tackling inequalities.”

I am from the north-east region, where we have high deprivation and high smoking prevalence. It is the only region that has a clear vision—if you like—and declaration from Fresh and the directors of public health for how to achieve a smoke-free country. Could you explain a bit more why we need that vision and that strategy going forward?

Hazel Cheeseman: The legislation is fantastic; it is world-leading and brilliant, and it will really set us on that path toward being a smoke-free country. However, it will not be the last word in how that is achieved. We have 6 million smokers across this country, and we need to ensure that all of our agencies are lined up to do the job that they need to do to help those people stop smoking—the NHS, local government and integrated care boards across the system need to have the right approach. We also need to ensure that the funding is there to do that too. The Government have committed to the funding in stop-smoking services in local government, but we also need to see funding in mass media campaigns. The chief medical officer was talking earlier about people’s waning understanding of the harms of second-hand smoke. One way to address that would be to go back on TV and radio and explain to people what the harms of second-hand smoke are. That package of measures alongside this legislation would really help us to accelerate progress.

The Bill will massively raise the saliency of the harms of smoking with the public—there is no doubt about that. There has been, and there will continue to be, a strong public debate on the measures in this Bill. By really riding the wave of that public understanding through that coherent strategy and that investment, we could really see smoking rates start to drop, particularly in those disadvantaged populations where we continue to have persistently high levels of smoking.