Draft Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2019

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Kevin Foster)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2019.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. The draft order covers both the ministerial hats I wear. It amends the consent requirements in schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006 in respect of electoral registration officers. It also makes clear how that amendment interacts with provisions in the Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) Order 2018, so that functions over EROs are transferred to Welsh Ministers.

The UK, Welsh and Scottish Governments have committed to reforming the annual canvass process, and those reforms will improve the ability of EROs to identify properties where household composition has changed, allowing them to target resources towards those properties. Today’s changes are part of that.

Electoral registration officers are appointed under section 8 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, and under the Welsh devolution settlement are classed as reserved authorities. That is because, although they exercise functions in relation to Assembly and local government elections in Wales, which are devolved matters, they mainly exercise functions in relation to reserved polls, such as UK parliamentary elections or police and crime commissioner elections.

Paragraphs 8 and 10 of schedule 7B to the 2006 Act place restrictions on the Assembly’s ability to impose, modify or remove functions of reserved authorities without the consent of the UK Government. That means that, although the National Assembly for Wales has legislative competence for Assembly and local government elections, it cannot modify the devolved functions of EROs without a Minister of the Crown’s consent. Let me assure the Committee that that was not the Government’s intention.

A small number of reserved authorities are carved out of the consent requirements, because they, like EROs, exercise a mix of devolved and reserved functions. Such authorities include the Electoral Commission and the Food Standards Agency. Article 2 of the draft order addresses the issue by adding EROs to the list, so that in future the Assembly can modify their devolved functions without needing the UK Government’s agreement.

Article 3 makes clear the effect of carving out EROs from the consent requirements in the Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) Order 2018. The 2018 order sought to transfer the remaining Minister of the Crown functions in devolved areas to Welsh Ministers. That included all the functions within the devolved competence of the Assembly contained in the main pieces of electoral legislation. However, the effect of paragraph 12 of schedule 7B to the 2006 Act is that reference to the devolved competence of the Assembly in the 2018 order does not include an Assembly provision requiring the consent of a Minister of the Crown.

Owing to the consent requirements related to EROs that I have already outlined, it follows that Minister of the Crown functions related to the devolved functions of EROs did not transfer to Welsh Ministers through the 2018 order as was intended. The draft order therefore provides that powers to modify the devolved functions of EROs will be treated as transferring to Welsh Ministers under the 2018 order on the date that the draft order comes into force. That will enable Welsh Ministers to make the necessary regulations for the canvass reforms in respect of devolved polls.

I welcome the very positive engagement that has taken place with the Welsh Government in developing the draft order, which has also been laid before the National Assembly for approval.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

I will keep my conclusion brief. I very much welcome the support of the shadow Minister. I agree with many of his comments, although not necessarily all of them.

I emphasise that the core of the order is about modernising the process of the annual canvass. At the moment, it is based on paper forms being sent out and, in theory, exactly the same effort going into areas where there is no particular evidence that people are not registered or that households have changed as goes into communities where there may be a greater chance of people not being registered to vote. The order allows, in devolved and reserved elections, resources to be focused on getting people on to the register who might otherwise be excluded. A constructive piece of work has been done with the Welsh Government. The Cabinet Office, the Welsh Government, local government in England, and Scotland are looking to see how we can improve the process.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

On the point about the UK Government supporting the Welsh Government and EROs in boosting electoral registration, when talking to my ERO in Blaenau Gwent, I found out that when young people try to register to vote, the single most common reason for them not registering to vote properly is their inability to provide their national insurance number. It is a simple thing, and many of us know it off by heart, but young people have not learned it yet. Will the new regulation allow EROs in Wales, or Welsh Government Ministers, to have stronger influence over the Department for Work and Pensions, so that there is better digital transfer of information, particularly around NI numbers, allowing EROs to target young people and provide that information as part of their boosting of electoral registration to support the growth of our democracy, as recommended by my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd?

[Kevin Foster]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the interesting intervention. He may want to look at the main canvass reform orders that will be laid, which look at how DWP data could be used to identify those who may be being excluded from the electoral roll. He will notice that there are some clear safeguards around such data matches being used, so that ERO teams can target exactly who might be most likely to not be registered or households where there may have been a change in composition. Again, we realise that those who are in receipt of particular DWP support are perhaps most likely to not be on the electoral register.

There are also some specific provisions in the English orders, which have now been laid before the House by the Cabinet Office, to look at issues such as specialist accommodation. Rather than just firing out random paper forms, we can do better work to identify a responsible person to then identify those who may be being excluded from the electoral roll. In some cases, it is about people literally not knowing how to get the form done or make declarations of local connections. Our priority is to target resources and move away from a bureaucratic method where we send a form and do not get a reply, then send another form, then knock on a door—that is from another era.

Welsh Ministers will also want to engage on the franchise that has been set for the devolved elections and how they can reach out. Speaking as the UK Minister with responsibility for democratic engagement, we welcome the steps that are being taken in all the nations of the United Kingdom to try to engage more people and get them to participate in our democracy. As hon. Members will appreciate, however, there is a separate system in Northern Ireland under the chief electoral officer, for fairly obvious historical reasons, where a requirement for an annual canvass does not exist under the laws that pertain there.

To use the earlier expression, this has been a tidy debate that has elicited a wide consensus. I commend the order to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions his Department has had with the Electoral Commission on the effect of overseas funding of political (a) parties and (b) campaigns on the conduct of elections in the UK.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)]

The Cabinet Office regularly engages with the Electoral Commission on a range of issues, including strengthening the integrity of the electoral framework. We have committed to launch an electoral integrity consultation, which will seek to strengthen the provisions that protect UK politics from foreign influence. We are currently holding discussions with regulators and stakeholders, and we will be publishing the consultation in the coming months.

[Chris Elmore]

I thank the Minister for his answer, but may I press him further? The commissioners recommended that the rules on campaign funding are improved in the UK further to support confidence from the electorate. Will the Minister set out a timetable of when he will finish these consultations and implement the commission’s recommendations so that the electorate has faith in where the funding comes from for our elections in this country?

[Kevin Foster]

I appreciate the constructive tone with which the hon. Gentleman has put his question. We look to publish the consultation itself over the coming months. We will be engaging with a range of stakeholders, including political parties, because we need to make sure that the system we come up with is not only robust, but fair, while also allowing those who just want to stand up for their own community and engage in our democratic process to do so without having to consult lawyers to take part.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

My hon. Friend will be aware that Facebook has recently withdrawn four different networks that were thought to have interfered with elections in the United States and Israel, and perhaps—we do not know—the United Kingdom. Does he think that is a good move or an irrelevant move by Facebook?

[Kevin Foster]

We certainly welcome any moves being taken by the social media giants to try to remove those who are looking to distort information or inappropriately influence elections. As part of the consultation we are taking forward, we will try to achieve some consensus about how we can have a modern and up-to-date set of rules that ensures people cannot go online to sidestep rules that are very strong in the physical world.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm how many convictions there were for polling station fraud last year—exactly how many?

[Kevin Foster]

I must say that perhaps it would have been better to ask that supplementary on the next question, but I will just say that in building confidence in our electoral system, it is vital that we tackle a range of issues. If the hon. Gentleman wants to see what happens when people’s democratic rights are stolen via electoral fraud, he should talk to his hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick).

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

2. What assessment the Government have made of the potential effect on the number of enfranchised people of the provisions on voter identification in the proposed legislation on electoral integrity.

--- Later in debate ---

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Ind)]

Existing electoral law seeks to control the spending and supervise the message whenever we go into elections. Does the Minister share my concern that it might not be adequate to control and supervise the advertising and campaigning that takes place on social media, where most of our constituents are more likely to get the message and where it is so important to ensure adequate controls?

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)]

I appreciate my right hon. Friend’s concerns. We will be launching the consultation on electoral funding next year, as I have already outlined in this Session, and we are looking to introduce digital imprints so that electors are well aware of who is targeting them on social media.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Cabinet Office

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2019 Ministerial Corrections

[Mike Gapes]

From what the Minister says, I am unclear on whether it will be possible for Sikhs to tick a specific box on the 2021 census. Can the Minister please clarify?

[Kevin Foster]

I am happy to clarify that there will be a tick box for Sikhs under the religion section but not under ethnicity. There have been 55 requests for particular tick boxes on the census that the ONS is not recommending, and having a Sikh tick box under ethnicity is one of those that the ONS is not recommending.

[Official Report, 7 October 2019, Vol. 664, c. 1593.]

Letter of correction from the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster):

An error has been identified in my contribution to the debate.

The correction information should have been:

[Kevin Foster]

I am happy to clarify that there will be a tick box for Sikhs under the religion section but not under ethnicity. There have been 55 requests for new ethnic group tick boxes on the census. Of these the ONS is recommending only one new ethnic group tick box, for Roma. Having a Sikh tick box under ethnicity is one of those that the ONS is not recommending.

Draft European Parliamentary Elections Etc. (Repeal, Revocation, Amendment and Saving Provisions) (United Kingdom and Gibraltar) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2019 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft European Parliamentary Elections Etc. (Repeal, Revocation, Amendment and Saving Provisions) (United Kingdom and Gibraltar) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2019.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. The draft regulations make sensible provision to ensure that, following our participation in the European parliamentary elections earlier this year, the administrative processes necessary after the poll can be carried out and completed. One example is the requirement for relevant electoral officers to store ballot papers and other election documents for 12 months after the poll.

The proposed change will provide for legislation governing European parliamentary elections to remain in place until 31 December 2020, rather than being repealed on exit day, as an earlier statutory instrument—the European Parliamentary Elections Etc. (Repeal, Revocation, Amendment and Saving Provisions) (United Kingdom and Gibraltar) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018—provides. For clarity, the draft regulations will apply both to the United Kingdom and to Gibraltar.

Under the 2018 regulations, the legislation relating to European elections will be repealed on exit day, set at 31 October 2019. However, it is necessary for that legislation to stay in place to ensure that we can complete all the poll processes. I have already mentioned ballot papers, but the legislation also covers matters that the Electoral Commission may wish to investigate and the ability of political parties to inspect and obtain the marked register for the next 12 months. Importantly, there are also provisions concerning payment to returning officers for the costs of running the poll. If those provisions were no longer in force, the Government would no longer have the legal authority to reimburse returning officers, so the costs incurred in running the election would end up falling on the local authority concerned, which I am sure the Committee agrees would not be appropriate.

The 2018 regulations include provisions that are not linked solely to the holding of European parliamentary elections, but our approach has been to leave all those provisions on the statute book for a limited period because we believe that keeping the whole of the legislation in force has the benefit of being clear and making it simple for electoral administrators to understand and implement. It also minimises the risk of any adverse unintended consequences. However, I confirm that once we have left the EU, the UK will no longer have any Members of the European Parliament or take part in European parliamentary elections, whether scheduled or by-elections, as the EU law obligation to do so will have fallen away. The draft regulations will not change that position.

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

Having looked carefully at the explanatory notes, I cannot see anything that needs to remain in force for more than 12 months from the date of the poll. Will the Minister explain why the regulations are remaining in force until the end of next year, rather than just a year after the poll?

Secondly, the Minister said that certain things in the regulations are not specifically connected to the European elections. Could he set out their scope, not in detail but briefly, just so that people can work out that there is no funny business going on and that nothing is being smuggled in under cover?

[Kevin Foster]

There is no funny business being smuggled in. A report by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments covers some of the areas that my right hon. Friend may wish to look at, but there is certainly no funny business being smuggled in. However, it was felt easier to retain the whole piece of legislation, rather than leaving electoral administrators to satisfy themselves which parts of it are still in place.

Why are we retaining the legislation until the end of next year, rather than for just a year? As my right hon. Friend will be aware, if the law were quite tight about finishing off within the year, it would effectively bring to an end any investigation that had started just before the year deadline. There are also issues relating to payments to returning officers that might take slightly longer than a year to resolve if there were a dispute. We believe that, by 31 December next year, all processes should have been concluded, allowing some time for challenge or even, perhaps, for a brief extension, which could be granted by a court. At the moment, we are not aware of any processes that are there. However, there would be a final deadline of a year for those. It therefore makes sense to retain these provisions slightly beyond the end of the strict year of legal limitation.

It is possible, for example, that a police investigation started shortly before the year’s deadline could apply to a magistrates court to extend that deadline. Setting the deadline at a year would effectively bring a statutory bar into concluding that process. If we were still, for example, debating a payment amount with a local authority—or returning officer, effectively—we would not be able lawfully to make the payment if the legislation had been repealed. We believe that 31 December next year gives not only the year but more time to resolve any outstanding issues, and it is a clear and understandable date for repeal; the legislation will be enforced through 2020, but will then be repealed on 31 December 2020, bringing clarity to the process.

It is probably worth saying that the Cabinet Office has engaged on the proposed change with the Electoral Commission, representatives of the Association of Electoral Administrators, the Electoral Management Board for Scotland, the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers, the Wales Electoral Coordination Board, the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Government of Gibraltar. The Electoral Commission and other bodies agree with the Government’s approach in the instrument and consider it sensible, given that the UK took part in the European parliamentary elections in May 2019. We have also kept the parliamentary parties panel informed of the position with the instrument. I therefore commend the instrument to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

It is always interesting to be in a Committee where hon. Members make such strong speeches condemning the Government, but then say, “Actually, we’re going to vote for what you propose.” There is always a slight irony in that. I have to say that the comments of the hon. Member for Glasgow East came as no great surprise, although at least his party has been consistent and coherent in what it argues for on the issue.

I do not intend to delay the Committee unduly by responding to all the points made by the hon. Member for City of Chester. I am sure that, like me, he is looking forward to seeing the new deal that the Prime Minister will secure and getting into the Lobby to support it. There was a slight irony in his comment that failure to achieve a Brexit deal meant that EU citizens could not vote in European elections; if a Brexit deal had been achieved, we would not have had European elections, so no one would have voted in them. That was the Government’s original goal.

Let me address some of the hon. Gentleman’s more serious points. We expect the Law Commission’s final report in the early part of next year. It will set out the details and announce our intentions in the usual way; it is a very detailed piece of work, as he will realise, given the nature of the law. With any change to electoral law, it is important that we get it right rather than rushing it. We need to ensure that it is immune from certain legal challenges and that it is a robust piece of legislation, but is not so complex that it makes it difficult for people to engage in our democracy. Not every candidate for election—I am thinking particularly of independent candidates in parish and local elections—would benefit from or should have to obtain detailed legal advice merely to stand to represent their local community. The Government will carefully consider the Law Commission’s report, as I am sure Parliament will in due course.

To modernise our election law, we have already committed to bringing in a digital imprint regime. Once the technical work is completed, we will look to bring it forward. We have also committed to a consultation later this year that will focus on the rules on election spending, which I have discussed several times in the main Chamber. It will be open to all feedback, not just from Opposition parties but from stakeholders in society, about how we can tackle the challenges that a modern digital campaigning landscape presents to elections and ensure that our rules on who can fund and finance elections are modern and up to date.

I welcome the outbreak of consensus about the reasons for the draft regulations. I commend them to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Tata Steelworks: Newport

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Kevin Foster)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) on securing this debate, which has given us the opportunity to come together to discuss a topic that is important not just for Newport but for the whole of Wales. She has always been, and was today, an energetic and passionate advocate for her constituents and those affected by the potential closure of Tata’s Cogent Orb plant.

It is clear that there is a shared understanding of the important role the steel sector plays in communities and its critical place as a foundation industry in the national economy, especially in Wales. That is evidenced by the number of Members attending this debate. I have heard their comments and the request to meet the unions. I understand that the Secretary of State for Wales has already been in contact with them, and I am more than happy to facilitate meetings. I will pass on the request for a meeting of the steel council. That is something we are always happy to do, and certainly if hon. Members request it. Those who have dealt with me previously know that I am only too happy to meet Members, particularly if it relates to matters in their constituencies that are this important. I would be happy to facilitate that.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Is the Minister saying that he will go back to his colleagues and recommend that the UK steel council meets, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) has requested?

[Kevin Foster]

I will pass on the strong demand that the hon. Member for Newport East has made for the council to meet. In terms of what I can offer, and the direct request for meetings with Ministers about the Orb plant, I am more than happy to arrange to do that. That was the second part of her request.

Although there are considerable challenges, we believe there remain great opportunities for the industry to secure a successful, sustainable future at the centre of British manufacturing. The announcement on 2 September 2019 that Tata is to close its Orb Electrical Steels plant in Newport has understandably been a huge blow for employees, their families, contractors, suppliers and customers. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her commitment to working with Government and other stakeholders, including the Community union, to help secure the future of the business, both in her role as MP for Newport East and as an officer for the all-party parliamentary group on steel and metal-related industries, many of whose members are in the Chamber.

The Government have worked with Tata to seek possible solutions to the financial challenges facing the company. We have also met with the unions to discuss the concerns of the workers and their families. This was a commercial decision by Tata Steel Europe. The Orb Electrical Steels plant has been on sale for two years, but sadly Tata was unable to find a buyer. We are open to considering plans that would deliver a long-term, sustainable future, based on a clear business plan, but as I am sure hon. Members realise, that cannot just be based on an ongoing subsidy or on merely hoping that business will come forward. We have sought and had reassurance from Tata that every effort will be made to mitigate the impact on affected employees. It is offering alternative employment opportunities where possible at other Tata Steel sites. The UK Government are committed to working with Tata to avoid job losses as a result of any closure of the Orb steel plant, as Tata is one of the most important employers in Wales. We will keep all options open to support a sustainable future for that plant and for Tata elsewhere in Wales.

[Nick Smith]

The Minister says that the Government have met Tata, but what has he been able to offer it to help keep Orb open and keep steel going in south Wales? Can he be clear about what the Government are willing to put on the table?

[Kevin Foster]

The Government are clear that if a sustainable, long-term business plan can be produced, we will consider support packages, but the key part is that it must be sustainable for the long term, and it must be based on a clear business plan.

[Nic Dakin]

We have heard today about the Syndex report, which places a way forward on the table. Will the Government meet the unions, Syndex and Tata to see how that could be turned into the sort of plan that would deliver not only for this workforce and industry, but for UK plc?

[Kevin Foster]

We are more than happy to meet. Obviously we cannot guarantee that a third party would wish to be involved in those meetings, but certainly from the perspective of the Government and the Wales Office, we would be more than happy to arrange a meeting with the unions and Syndex to see how their plan could be taken further. The key part has to be whether it can provide a long-term sustainable future, and we note that the plant has been for sale for two years with no purchaser having come forward. Certainly, UK Government Ministers are more than happy to meet interested parties to discuss what we could do.

In the context of the wider steel industry, the Government have made up to £800 million of funding available to support decarbonisation and innovation in the industry. We remain committed to supporting the Welsh steel sector in accessing this funding and ensuring that it is able to compete with the best in the world. Recent and ongoing work to support the steel sector includes establishing the £250 million clean steel fund, which was announced in August and will support the sector’s transition to lower-carbon iron and steel production through new technologies and processes. It will also maximise longevity and resilience in the UK steel sector by building on longstanding expertise and skills and harnessing clean growth opportunities.

Our industrial energy transformation fund is a £315 million fund supporting short-term projects in both energy efficiency and decarbonisation for businesses with high energy use. The fund will help businesses with high energy use, including steel companies, to cut their bills and transition UK industry to a low carbon future.

The industrial decarbonisation challenge is a £170 million fund aimed at the UK’s industrial carbon emissions clusters. South Wales has been identified as one of six clusters in the UK that will benefit from that fund, which supports our grand challenge mission to develop a net zero emissions cluster by 2040 through the development of innovative low- carbon solutions. It will provide long-term support to the industry, ensuring Britain’s long term sustainable future.

[Ruth Jones]

The Minister is making some laudable points about laudable plans for the future of the steel industry, but does he not agree that closing the only electrical steel plant in the UK makes absolutely no sense in terms of future planning? That is not joined-up thinking at all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

This is a commercial decision by the company and the plant has been for sale for two years, but as I have already said, we are more than happy to meet stakeholders to see if the Government can provide some support. That support would have to be based on a sustainable long-term business plan for the future.

We are also providing up to £66 million through the industrial strategy challenge fund to help steel and other foundation industries develop radical new technologies and establish innovation centres of excellence in those sectors. This challenge will create a pilot facility to demonstrate new technologies, and develop a cross-sectoral approach for research, innovation and skills. To date, the UK Government have provided more than £312 million in compensation to the steel sector since 2013 to make energy costs more competitive, including over £53 million during 2018.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The Minister talks about this being a commercial decision, but it is absolutely clear that the underlying conditions for the British steel industry are completely undermined by the energy price disparity. Is he aware of the fact that it costs £50 per MWh in the UK, compared with £31 per MWh in Germany, a disparity of 62%? The disparity with French energy costs is 80%. The Minister cannot claim that this is a purely commercial decision; it is a commercial decision based on the utter failure of the British Government to deal with this energy price disparity.

[Kevin Foster]

As has been mentioned, to make energy costs more competitive, we have made £312 million in compensation available to the steel sector since 2013, including £53 million in 2018 alone.

We have commissioned independent research to identify high-value market opportunities for UK steel producers that will be worth up to £3.8 billion a year by 2030. The UK is a supplier of steel for a range of high-value applications and is a strategic part of the supply chain for the automotive, aerospace, construction, defence and oil and gas sectors. We are successfully working with the steel industry to introduce steel procurement guidance that will ensure that Government and the wider public sector take into account social and environmental benefits when procuring and designing their major projects.

[Jessica Morden]

Will the Minister give way?

[Kevin Foster]

I have to conclude, as I am starting to get close to time.

We have also signed up to the UK steel charter, acknowledging and supporting that initiative from industry. We continue to press for the introduction of trade defence instruments to protect UK steel producers from unfair steel dumping. Tata has confirmed the closures are not linked to Brexit; instead competition from much larger players in China and Japan is understood to be the key reason.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Mr Hanson, this kind of debate is supposed to be a conversation between the Minister and the Member who secured it. There are five minutes left in the debate; surely it would be appropriate for the Minister to give way to the person who secured the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Hanson (in the Chair)]

As you well know, Mr Brennan, it is for the Minister to decide whether he wishes to give way. Clearly at the moment he does not wish to do so.

[Kevin Foster]

Thank you, Mr Hanson. I will take another intervention as I come nearer to the end of my speech, but I have not been ungenerous in taking interventions from Opposition Members so far.

The UK Government are stepping up their efforts to ensure businesses are ready to leave the EU on 31 October via their national communication and engagement campaign. We are also urgently identifying and delivering actions to support businesses in improving readiness. The Government will take economic measures to mitigate any short-run disruption, to support the economy through the transition and to boost the long-term potential of the UK economy, taking advantage of the opportunities outside the EU. As I said, the Government are prepared to look at and discuss any plans that present a long-term, sustainable option for the plant.

[Jessica Morden]

I appreciate the Minister responding today, but members of the all-party parliamentary group on steel have not yet had a real opportunity in a debate to question the new steel Minister. I ask the Minister to convey to the new steel Minister the urgency of the situation, because if we lose Orb, we lose the opportunity of an end-to-end supply chain for electric vehicles before Christmas.

[Kevin Foster]

I will certainly convey the hon. Lady’s message to the steel Minister. I have to say, looking at the many Opposition Members here and given my knowledge of their determination to stand up for the communities they represent, that I have a feeling that the steel Minister will get a number of opportunities in the very near future to discuss steel on the Floor of the House, if not in a debate in this Chamber. Certainly as a Minister, I would be badly mistaken to think I can ignore some of the people on the Opposition Benches.

However, it is worth reflecting on the fact that there are currently 46 trade defence measures in place to protect UK steel products from unfair steel dumping. As we operate an independent trade policy, the UK will continue to champion free trade and take a proportionate approach to trade remedies, with a view to continuing the defence of our industry where necessary. The steel industry is an important industry in Wales, as reflected by today’s turnout among Members representing Welsh constituencies. The UK Government are committed to supporting companies, such as Tata, that have contributed to the local economy in Wales for decades, and we will continue to work with the sector, the unions and the devolved Administration to support the UK’s steel sector in developing a long-term, viable solution for that industry.

In closing, I thank all hon. Members who have contributed to today’s debate, and the hon. Member for Newport East for having secured it. I know that she will continue to be a strong advocate for those she represents and will ensure that the Government hear loud and clear their views and what she believes the options to be. I would certainly be more than happy to have a longer discussion with her about some of the proposals that are being put forward; I look forward to the opportunity to do so. However, as I say, those proposals must be based on providing a long-term, sustainable future for the plant, not just subsidy with a hope of something coming along.

Question put and agreed to.

Census (Return Particulars and Removal Of Penalties) Bill [Lords]

Kevin Foster Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 7th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)]

I will not prolong this part of our debate. The purpose of the clause is simple. It amends the Census Act 1920 in respect of England and Wales to remove the penalty for not responding to census questions on sexual orientation and gender identity. This means that those questions will be voluntary. As I am sure hon. Members will recall, this reflects the approach taken by the Census (Amendment) Act 2000, which removed the penalty attaching to a failure to answer a question on religion in the census.

Clause 2 amends the Census Act (Northern Ireland) 1969 to remove the penalty for not responding to census questions on sexual orientation and gender identity, in order to replicate the changes that we are making in law for England and Wales. The power to include questions on sexual orientation and gender identity already exists under the Northern Ireland legislation. Clause 2 does not create new powers to ask those questions; it simply ensures that if they were asked in a future census in Northern Ireland, they would be voluntary.

Finally, clause 3 sets out the territorial extent, commencement and short title of the Bill. The territorial extent of the Bill is England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Bill does not extend to Scotland, where the matter is devolved and where the Scottish Parliament is dealing with the relevant legislation.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 2

Questions on gender identity

“(1) Any question or questions asked about gender identity under the Census Act 1920 or the Census Act (Northern Ireland) 1969 must be framed so as to enable statistical information to be obtained about gender identity within different ethnic groups.

(2) The ethnic groups in subsection (1) must include Sikhs.” —(Preet Kaur Gill.)

This new clause would mean that if the census included a question on gender identity, it would have to be written in such a way as to provide information about gender identity in different ethnic groups.

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Matheson]

It is Labour’s hope that the ONS will listen to the case put by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston, and I will deal with that in a moment.

The campaign for an ethnic tick box turns on the recognition of Sikhs as an ethnic community by law, and many in the Sikh community feel that individuals should be able to identify as ethnically Sikh in the next census to ensure a more accurate picture of the community. The primary concern, as my hon. Friend stated, is that public bodies do not currently have enough information about Sikhs. I found the homelessness figures to be shocking and was unaware of the situation. More data would help inform the approach of the education, health, local government and business sectors towards the Sikh community. It is important to target services effectively, so data about such minority groups is vital because underreporting could allow discrimination to go unnoticed.

Labour fully supports the campaign by my hon. Friend and the all-party parliamentary group, which has been tireless and persuasive in pressing for a change so that the census includes a section on ethnic identity, with an option to choose being a Sikh. Indeed, to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Eleanor Smith), I believe that there is not only legal precedent in this matter, but a pending court case that will seek a judicial review of the ONS’s decision.

However, in conversations with the Minister outside the Chamber, he convinced me that this particular Bill might not be the appropriate vehicle for that matter to be addressed, so I ask him to address that concern in his contribution. I understand that today’s Bill is concerned only with the section of the census relating to sexuality and gender identity. Will the Minister explain how the way in which new clause 2 is worded may cause difficulty for that section? Will he also address the view presented by the ONS that questions on gender, identity and sexual orientation may not be included if new clause 2 is passed at this stage?

I hope that the ONS listens carefully to the campaign of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston, because the discussions around having a Sikh tick box within the overall question on ethnicity may have been going on for 20 years and will not go away anytime soon. The sooner we can resolve the matter to the satisfaction of the Sikh community, the sooner we can get things right.

[Kevin Foster]

I thank the Members who have contributed to the debate. The hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) said that he would not press Labour’s new clause 3. I am glad that the Labour Front-Bench team found the letter of interest and that it answered their concerns. From conversations with the ONS, I know that it is keen to ensure that everyone is counted in terms of the homeless community, that outreach work is done and that special measures are put in place to try to ensure as many people as possible fill in the census form. The Labour Front Bench raised the particular issue of those in the LGBT community who may be affected by homelessness in a different way and have a fear of it that differs from the rest of the community. A very worthwhile issue was brought up. I was therefore only too happy to send the letter, rather than wait until tonight. A copy of that letter has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses if Members want to consult the Government’s comments.

Turning to the substance of the debate, new clause 2 was passionately moved by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) and it confirms the importance of ensuring that the 2021 census provides detailed information on our society, and especially the Sikh community. The Government will be guided by the advice and recommendations of the Office for National Statistics, which has advised that the new clause’s effect can be achieved through analysis of information collected under its existing proposals for the 2021 census.

Most importantly, the new clause is potentially damaging to the integrity of the census and threatens the inclusion of a question on gender identity, which would be counter to the whole aim of this Bill. For clarity, the new clause would not make any changes to the proposals for a question on sexual orientation; it would make changes only to the question on gender identity. Under the ONS’s existing proposals for the 2021 census, it will already be possible to produce statistical information about gender identity within different ethnic and religious groups.

As in previous censuses, there will continue to be separate questions on ethnicity and religion, and the data from the ethnicity, religion and gender identity questions can be analysed to provide detailed information on gender identity across different cross-sections of the population.

[Mike Gapes]

From what the Minister says, I am unclear on whether it will be possible for Sikhs to tick a specific box on the 2021 census. Can the Minister please clarify?

[Kevin Foster]

I am happy to clarify that there will be a tick box for Sikhs under the religion section but not under ethnicity. There have been 55 requests for particular tick boxes on the census that the ONS is not recommending, and having a Sikh tick box under ethnicity is one of those that the ONS is not recommending.[Official Report, 14 October 2019, Vol. 666, c. 2MC.]

As I said, the Government will be guided by the ONS’s recommendations on what the census should include. Of course, Members can discuss the issue more fully when Parliament considers the main census orders that set the questions, but the Government will be guided by the ONS’s recommendations in this area.

Anyone who wishes to identify in the 2021 census as having Sikh or Kashmiri ethnicity, or Jain or Zoroastrian religion, will be able to do so under the existing proposals using the write-in option or the new “search as you type” facility.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Will the Minister meet me to discuss this? I have had numerous meetings with the ONS, which has not been able to explain how it will use the tools because they have never been used before. This conversation has been had on many occasions. I know he refers to religion, but we are talking about how we deliver public services in the United Kingdom. We do not use the religion category. I challenged the ONS and asked it to make that category mandatory. It said there was no public acceptability in respect of that.

What I am requesting from the Minister is some challenge back to the ONS. If there is no data on Sikhs, especially when the Cabinet Office has looked at a hundred datasets across Government, surely we should present some challenge back. In the last census 90% of Sikhs—83,000 Sikhs—ticked “other” and wrote in “Sikh” as a protest vote. I would like to feel assured that he will present some challenge back, especially given that, as legislators, we should be upholding the law and Sikhs are classified as an ethnic group.

[Kevin Foster]

I am more than happy to meet the hon. Lady to have a more in-depth conversation about this issue, and I will make sure that ONS representatives are also present so that she can put her point directly to them.

I make it clear that the census is about data collection, and it is a criminal offence for a person not to respond to the overall census, but it is right that the questions are seen as having been professionally recommended for data collection purposes, rather than a Minister personally choosing the questions and tick boxes that are included.

Today’s debate is about the questions on these two issues being voluntary, rather than coming through schedule 6, which would make them compulsory. For reasons with which many of us will agree, this is a very sensitive area of data.

Given that these analytical possibilities already exist, we believe there are no grounds for this new clause, which is potentially damaging to the integrity of the census. It would require changes to questions that have been extensively researched, tested and consulted on by the ONS in its independent advisory capacity over the three years of evidence gathering to inform the proposals for the 2021 census. It would also serve to introduce the risk of confusion and concern for individuals completing the gender identity question. My early discussions with the ONS indicated that, as was referred to by the shadow Minister, it would be likely to recommend that this question was not included in census 2021 if this new clause were passed, given the changes it would make to that question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

As indicated on the Order Paper, Mr Speaker has certified that clause 1 relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence. As the Bill has not been amended during Committee, there is no change to that certification.

The appropriate consent motion has been tabled. Does the Minister intend to move it?

[Kevin Foster]

indicated assent.

The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) (Standing Order No. 83M).

[Dame Eleanor Laing in the Chair]

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I beg the Whip’s pardon; this sort of yo-yo-type procedure can be a little confusing. In order to avoid confusion, I remind hon. Members that, if there is a Division, only Members representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote on the consent motion for England and Wales.

Resolved,

That the Committee consents to the following certified Clause of the Census (Return Particulars and Removal of Penalties) Bill [Lords]—

Clauses certified under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence

Clause 1 of the Bill (Bill 412).—(Kevin Foster.)

Question agreed to.

The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report the decision of the Committee (Standing Order No. 83M(6)).

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair; decision reported.

Third Reading

[Kevin Foster]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I thank all right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed to the debate. I am grateful for the support for the Bill, especially from the main Opposition parties, with which, as I touched on earlier, we have had some constructive discussions, not only on the Bill but on how the census can be taken forward to be the best it can be.

The 2021 census will provide decision makers and citizens with comprehensive data on our society. Getting the best information is essential to inform policy, planning and funding decisions across national and local public services. The Bill is simple: it provides that two questions —on sexual orientation and gender identity—could be asked in the census in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, on a voluntary basis. It does not mandate that those questions should be asked, but it does give the opportunity for them to be done on a voluntary basis. With that, I commend the Bill to the House.

Welsh Language

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Kevin Foster)]

Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. [Interruption.] I thought it was worth an attempt. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing a debate on this important issue. He is a known champion of the Welsh language and campaigner for the right to use Welsh in the House; the Secretary of State for Wales has worked alongside him to see Welsh spoken in the Welsh Grand Committee.

This debate is timely as this is UNESCO’s International Year of Indigenous Languages, the purpose of which is to raise awareness of the critical risks historic languages face and their value as vehicles for change, knowledge systems and ways of life. Indigenous languages play a crucial role in enabling communities to participate in their countries’ economic, cultural and political life.

My hon. Friend was absolutely right to say that this cannot be a matter of “devolve and forget”. The UK Government are committed to supporting the UK’s indigenous languages. As he touched on, Welsh is recognised as an official UK language and is one of the oldest living languages. It is also one of the greatest inheritances for our Union as a whole, so we have a responsibility to protect it and develop a strong future for it. We also have a duty to represent the communities we serve and to understand that, for many people, both fluent speakers and learners, the Welsh language forms an integral part of their identity—their British identity as well as their Welsh identity.

It is good to see that, far from what my hon. Friend’s essay concluded back in the 1960s, almost 30% of Wales’s population aged three and over now say they can speak at least some Welsh. We are therefore seeing progress towards the aspirations of Cymraeg 2050, which aims for there to be 1 million Welsh language speakers by 2050 and for the Welsh language to be part of everyday life in Wales, empowering and representing Welsh speakers and their communities.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on his fantastic speech. In counties such as mine—in Staffordshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire, which border Wales—huge numbers of our constituents go on holiday to Wales and enjoy Wales. We would like at least the opportunity to learn Welsh in our areas. We would like it at least to be offered as an option in some of our schools and colleges. It is vital. I have tried to learn Welsh; I have not had much success so far, but as I too am stepping down at the next election, it is something that I hope to do in the future.

[Kevin Foster]

Putting my Union hat on briefly and speaking as Minister with responsibility for the constitution, it would be wonderful to see more of the culture of our Union being spread across it, including opportunities to study the Welsh language—and Welsh law, given the nuances that there are, following the devolution of law-making powers to the Welsh Assembly. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire would be happy to help my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) learn a bit more Welsh after their joint retirement from this place. It would be good to see schools offering to teach Welsh. Certainly the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales will at every opportunity look to promote the ability to learn Welsh, and not just in Wales, so that people in the rest of the Union can get an understanding of the language, and the rich culture attached to it.

The UK Government will continue to support the targets I have outlined, and will use every opportunity to promote them. My Department is proud to have lead responsibility for the Welsh language in the UK Government, and for ensuring it becomes the language of success, rather than what it was once described as being.

[Jane Dodds (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who is a good friend, I hope, for the work that he has done in Montgomeryshire. I thank him for his service to his constituency. I am sure that he would agree that there is a real need for more Welsh teachers. I was lucky enough to attend a Welsh school, and to have a nain who lived with us who was monolingual and could not speak English. For me—I am sure the Minister will agree—the important thing was to have Welsh teachers in my Welsh school. I hope he supports the initiative being taken to promote the recruitment and training of Welsh language teachers.

[Kevin Foster]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. Of course I support the work being done in Wales to recruit more Welsh teachers. Immersion in a language is the best way to learn it. There is only so much that can be learned in a classroom. It is important to see the language used, and be able to use it for real, not just, as was touched on in one or two interventions, in an educational setting. It is important to be able to see it online and in media, and obviously to be able to speak it with friends.

As part of the work being done by the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales, at the National Eisteddfod in August, the Secretary of State, together with the Welsh Language Commissioner, Aled Roberts, launched new guidance for UK Government Departments when planning and delivering bilingual communications targeted at audiences in Wales. This guidance, endorsed by the Government Communication Service, is the first of its kind for the UK Government. Included in this guidance are recommendations and good practice on designing and creating quality bilingual content in areas including events, consultations and campaigns. This guidance will support people working across both Governments, in Wales and in Whitehall, to help us achieve the Cymraeg 2050 ambition, ensuring the Welsh language is visible, audible and, above all, accessible.

My Department has also promoted Welsh as part of Wales Week in London. I was proud to see every aspect of Welsh cultural life represented, alongside showcases of Welsh culture and identity, tourism, and food and drink products; I particularly enjoyed the latter two. We also celebrated our champions of the Welsh language. My Department has sought a commitment from all UK Government Departments to preserving and promoting the Welsh language. I am pleased to say that 11 UK Government Departments now have a Welsh language scheme, including most recently the Cabinet Office. As some may be able to guess, there has been a series of bilaterals between me as Under-Secretary of State for Wales and me as the Minister with responsibility for the constitution. I found very persuasive my argument that the Cabinet Office, as the Department that very much takes the lead for constitutional and Union matters, needed to resolve the issue and get a Welsh language scheme in place.

It is not just the Office for the Secretary of State for Wales taking the initiative in promoting Welsh language and culture. My colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have encouraged its network of posts to mark St David’s day across the overseas network. This year’s activities included a digital campaign highlighting Welsh culture, including the Welsh language.

Bringing Welsh to a global stage does not stop there. The Department for International Development launched Connecting Classrooms through their Global Learning Programme, which connects Welsh pupils and teachers with schools all over the world. The FCO and DFID are examples of Departments playing their part in promoting the Welsh language.

The UK Government are also funding award-winning creative output, providing bilingual services and developing initiatives where Welsh plays a central part. This includes the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, which has announced that Welsh language programming will benefit from up to 5% of its young audiences content fund and audio content fund, with the aim of stimulating the creation of dynamic and distinctive Welsh language productions from the independent sector.

The UK Government have also committed to maintaining S4C’s funding at its current level for 2019-20. S4C does not just make a contribution to the promotion of the Welsh language; it also makes an important contribution to the creative economy in Wales. It recently moved its headquarters from Cardiff to Yr Egin in Carmarthen, and I am proud that through the Swansea Bay city deal we will be supporting the next phase of this move, which will generate major and positive change to the creative and digital economy of Wales. This will ensure the Welsh language will be seen and heard not only throughout Wales but beyond its borders.

The UK Government are also supporting civil servants to learn Welsh. For example, the DVLA is one of many departments registered as an employer with the National Centre for Learning Welsh, and as a result over 280 of its staff have registered to undertake online Welsh language training courses. It is also championing Welsh in its service provision and has developed a new “Welsh language call handler of the year” award category in its annual contact centre awards to recognise the importance of providing excellence in this service.

The UK Government are constantly looking to improve our Welsh language services. Most recently, the Department for Work and Pensions implemented a Welsh version of the universal credit online system and is ensuring that all its digital services are in Welsh as well as English. It has also undertaken a number of Welsh language-specific recruitment exercises to ensure it has enough Welsh-speaking work coaches. This has been considered a leading case study of best practice for Welsh language recruitment, and it has been sharing its experience with other UK Government Departments.

Welsh language considerations are also being embedded in other Departments. The Home Office has Welsh language champions who raise the profile of the Welsh language across the Department and its arm’s length bodies. It has also run successful campaigns in the Welsh language on forced marriage and female genital mutilation. I hope this gives the House a flavour of the UK Government’s passion for and commitment to the Welsh language.

I would like to end on a personal note. It is sad news that my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire will be standing down at the next general election. The £55 million announced today for the mid-Wales growth deal is perhaps another example of what he has achieved for his constituents during his time in the House. I know that his support for the Wales Office has been greatly appreciated by me, my predecessors and the Secretary of State for Wales, and he will be greatly missed in this Chamber. The House will also lose a great champion of the Welsh Language. That said, we will be delighted, I hope, to welcome back in his place another champion of the Welsh language, Craig Williams.

Question put and agreed to.

Principles of Democracy and the Rights of the Electorate

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Thursday 26th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)]

It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. This has been a fascinating debate and we have heard a range of contributions. In the spirit of civility, I say that I always enjoy my conversations with my two shadows, the hon. Members for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) and for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith). I hope they agree that we treat each other with respect and that although we may disagree at times, we are still able to find common ground in the mutual interest of those we represent.

I will start by responding to some of the issues raised. Contrary to some of the comments we have heard, the individual electoral registration reforms produced the biggest electoral roll ever at the last general election, with more people registering to vote than ever before. Online registration is one of the easiest methods for younger voters in particular to get themselves on the electoral roll. That is a sign of commitment. It is now literally possible to register online. People can do it in a few minutes. They no longer have to get a form and send it to their local council. Obviously, the arrangements in Northern Ireland are slightly different. Many of us know the reasons for that, and it has a more devolved structure.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

Will the Minister give way?

[Kevin Foster]

I will not take interventions, given that I have given up time to allow more Members to contribute to the debate.

We are also looking at reforming the annual canvass and are working constructively with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. The system is great at identifying people who have lived in one location for a long time, but we want to reform it, through the use of databases and other information, so that it targets other communities that we also want on the electoral register. We want a modern system. Fundamentally, the system originated in the 19th century, when heads of household would register to vote on behalf of the whole household, but that does not reflect modern lifestyles. It also means that resources are not targeted to getting the most vulnerable on the roll.

It has been good to hear some of the other speeches. I cannot go through them in detail, but I certainly enjoyed the contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) and for Isle of Wight (Mr Seely), especially when they talked about picking and choosing results. It is interesting to see how referendums described as once in a generation or once in a lifetime, with people told, “You have the power in your hands to make a sovereign choice,” suddenly, a couple of years later, become a matter of, “Actually, we’d like to have a rethink, please, and it was only an opinion poll.” In fact, referendums are different: people are told that they will make the decision and it will be binding.

People know my views on the separation of the Union; I think it would be a hugely retrograde step. However, had that been the decision of the Scottish people in 2014, we would have had to vote through the legislation. We cannot pick and choose which result we respect.

[David Linden]

Is it not true that the Cabinet Office has done polling on Scottish independence? If it has, will it release it?

[Kevin Foster]

The Cabinet Office conducts polling on a range of issues. There is no shortage of opinion polls on Scottish independence. I enjoyed seeing the separatists’ response to a recent poll: they complained that the poll was unfair because the question was about whether people wanted to remain in the United Kingdom. They thought that people being asked to remain in something was unfair, which is interesting, given their views on other topics. It was the Scottish National party itself that described the Scottish independence referendum as a once-in-a-generation event; now, only a few years later, the duration of a generation appears to have become extremely brief.

The key principle of our democracy is to give voters a choice. Just over three years ago, this Parliament gave voters a choice on whether this country would remain a member of the European Union. We had a strong debate and campaigns up and down the country. Not one person said, “Well, if you feel like voting, it’s next week, but it won’t make much of a difference.” No one said that; everyone said that whatever the decision, it would be implemented. Here we are, a few years later, having had a general election in which, as my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office pointed out, more than 80% of voters voted for a party that said it would respect the referendum result, and it still has not been implemented. That is where we see the principle: we cannot pick and choose which votes we respect. That is especially true of those who voted for the legislation to hold a referendum, took part in the campaign, argued their case and then, almost from the day after, decided that respecting the result was an optional extra.

This Government will remain focused on our programme not just to deliver Brexit, but to defend our democracy overall. In part, that involves making sure that we protect the ballot by bringing in the long-recommended system of voter identification, replacing an identity check that dates from the 19th century, when only a very small percentage of men could vote, with a modern system similar to ones used in many other democracies, and remarkably similar to the system used in Northern Ireland introduced by the Labour party. We will also seek to improve accessibility and make sure that more people can get to the polling station and cast their vote.

It is welcome that the Government tabled the motion. I expected that those who have spent most of the past two days attacking the Government and running down the Prime Minister, saying they had no great confidence in the Government, would try to test that confidence, but sadly they decided they did not want to do that. Normally in our democracy, the Opposition are itching to replace the Government. This must be one of the first times in history that the main Opposition have not tabled a motion of no confidence in the Government because they think they might win. It has been remarkable to see.

When a general election does come—an election we have already offered, which makes it interesting to hear about constituents being gagged when it is the other side who are blocking the election and we are the ones offering it—people had better consider who reflects their principles and their choices. When they do that, they will inevitably conclude that my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) is far more likely to deliver what they want than the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn).

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate.

Prime Minister's Role in Creating a Safe Environment

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Thursday 26th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): I had wanted to ask the Prime Minister, but I shall ask the Minister if he will ask the Prime Minister to reflect on his language and role as Prime Minister to create a safe environment both in our country and our country’s Parliament.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)]

British democracy has always been robust and vibrant, and healthy respectful debate is vital to it. Freedom of speech is a fundamental British liberty, but it is not an excuse to threaten or abuse anyone whose views we do not agree with. That liberty is compromised when a culture of intimidation forces people out of public life or discourages citizens from engaging in the political process. Let me make clear and say with no equivocation that such behaviour is wrong, unacceptable and must be addressed.

The Government recognise that this is an ongoing challenge that does not stop after each election. It is important that we tackle this issue and ensure that everyone, no matter their background, can participate in our democracy, free from hatred and intimidation. That is why we are taking action to confront it. The Government have committed to legislating for a new electoral offence on intimidation of candidates and campaigners in the run-up to an election. We have already made secondary legislation that removes the requirement for candidates standing at local and mayoral elections to have their home addresses published on the ballot paper and we will do the same for the Greater London Assembly elections.

Members across the House have faced threats of violence, attacks on their constituency offices and staff, and abuse aimed at family members. This is abhorrent. I know that right hon. and hon. Members from across the House raised this concern yesterday. We want to ensure that people from across the political spectrum can stand for office free from the fear of intimidation and abuse. We want to tackle this extremely serious issue and protect voters. The security arrangements for Members of Parliament have been kept under constant review by the Palace of Westminster authorities and the Metropolitan police’s parliamentary liaison and investigation team. Local forces engage with their MPs and other political figures to meet their security needs. Each force has a single point of contact who has contact with the PLAIT through regular updates and meetings as required.

The Government are also considering what further steps are necessary to ensure the safety of parliamentarians and their staff. Crucially, this applies not only to the vicinities of Parliament, but also in constituencies and online. We are working with social media companies to address threats online and abuse of MPs, candidates and others in public life to create a safe environment for debate.

[Jess Phillips]

I did ask a question, and that was whether the Prime Minister would reflect or could be asked to reflect.

Let me start by saying that I am not—and nobody is in this House—a traitor. They are not ignoring their constituents; they are all acting in good faith. I was raised thinking that we on these Benches were the goodies and over there were the baddies, but what I found when I got here was that everybody pretty much wanted to get to the same conclusion, just in a different way. I will wager that, more so than the Prime Minister, I spend time in my constituency office, loving and laughing with my constituents, no matter what they voted.

I do not just want to probe the idea that we all get abuse—not doubt we will hear a lot of that today—because we all get abuse. I had a death threat this week that literally quoted the Prime Minister. It used his name and words in a death threat that was delivered to my staff. So we know that it gets out. What I want to look at today—and what I want answers to today—is when there is a clear strategy to divide. The use of language yesterday and over the past few weeks, such as “surrender Bill”, invoking the war, and talking about betrayal and treachery, has clearly been tested, workshopped and worked up, and is entirely designed to inflame hatred and division.

I get it: it works; it is working. We are all ambitious. I am not going to pretend that I am not ambitious, but I also have a soul. It is not sincere; it is totally planned; it is completely and utterly part of a strategy designed by somebody to harm and cause hatred in our country. When I hear of my friend’s murder, and the way that it has made me and my colleagues feel scared, described as “humbug”, I actually do not feel anger towards the Prime Minister; I feel pity for those who still have to toe his line. Government Members know how appalling it was to describe the murder of my friend as mere humbug. [Interruption.] Can I ask everybody to act with calm and dignity in this moment?

I want to ask the Prime Minister to apologise and to tell him that the bravest, strongest thing to say is sorry. It will make him look good. It will not upset the people who want Brexit in this country if he acts for once like a statesman. Calling me names and putting words in my mouth and in the mouth of my dead friend makes me cross and angry, scared even, but I will not react. The Prime Minister wants me to react and join in the chaos that keeps this hatred and fear on our streets. I simply ask the Minister to ask the Prime Minister, who is notable by his bravery today, to meet me in private, with his advisers and with some of my colleagues and my friends from Jo’s family, so that we can explain our grief and try to make him understand why it is so abhorrent that he has chosen a strategy to divide rather than to lead.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

I will show calm and dignity in my responses today as well. I am very clear that the Government are looking at how we can create a safe environment not just for Members of Parliament, but for journalists and others in public life who can face abuse merely for being involved in what they do, and, of course, for members of the judiciary. I am always clear that no one is a traitor for saying what they believe, or for arguing a different political point. That is part of public debate. The last actual traitor was in 1946—someone who tried to support those looking to overturn this democracy by violent means.

It is right to say that the Government are moving to take action. We have the “Online Harms” White Paper. With colleagues in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, we are working to tackle some of the corrosive nature of the debate online. We see some of the work that is being done across government to try to tackle the issue and see where things are being done and to make sure that people do feel safe to express their views. We have been very clear that the law applies as much online as it does in the physical world.

We can all look at what may have been said over the years—I am sure that the hon. Lady will look at anything that she has said over the years about particular political figures as well. It is about how we do not get into a game of what-aboutery, but focus on what we can do to protect. I heard the comments that you made this morning, Mr Speaker, about some of the suggestions. I am sure that you, like me, will be interested to hear some of the thoughts that have come out about the idea that has been floated with you.

As the Minister who is responsible for our defending democracy programme, I would be only too happy to meet the hon. Lady to discuss in a different format where it comes, and, ultimately, to see where we can go with the approach of this House. As I have said, we are already committed to legislating around intimidation at election time, which is one of the things that many picked up on following the last election, and we see that as an ongoing debate. Actually, I was due even yesterday—if this House had not been sitting—to have a meeting with the police to discuss what we can do to ensure that all candidates receive support in any future general election, as it is not just when people are Members of this place that they face intimidation and abuse.

As I have said, the Government are taking a range of actions. Ultimately, it is for everyone to think about what they say and how they have contributed. Certainly today, what they will get from the Government is a calm dignity in response, making clear what we are doing to tackle this issue and create a safe environment for all, and not just for Members of Parliament.

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

When it comes to creating a safe environment in this place, we have a very clear code of conduct, which is enforced by you, Mr Speaker, in this Chamber. Yesterday, you were rightly, I think, rigorous with the Prime Minister, as ever, in the enforcement of his behaviour in accordance with that code. Now, I have the very greatest respect for the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips). We serve on the Women and Equalities Committee together, and I know how passionately she feels on many issues, but I am afraid that, yesterday, she was the person I could hear screaming the loudest from her Bench—so noticeable was it that she was actually having a conversation with one of the Whips who was standing by the side of your Chair, Mr Speaker. It was that that created a significant impression to people watching this debate of the hostility that the media reported. Is not one of the issues here the equal implementation of the code of conduct, so that all Members of this House feel as affected by the code and its requirement for all of us to treat each of us with respect, regardless of party?

[Kevin Foster]

My right hon. Friend makes a valid point: it is for all of us to look at how we contribute to respectful debate in this Chamber. Of course when it comes to what happens in this Chamber, Mr Speaker, it is you and your deputies who ensure that Members stick to the code of conduct and, of course, you have taken action when you believe that that is not occurring. Ultimately, it is about—certainly for the Government—not just this place, but the whole of democratic debate. There are people who will be thinking of doing their democratic duty, as they see it, in standing for this place and in giving their fellow citizens a chance to vote for a particular set of policies who will know that, in doing so, they will have their arguments, their thoughts and their proposals put to the test, but what should not be put to the test is just how thick a skin they have.

[Mr Speaker]

What the Minister has said is absolutely right: that code of conduct has to be enforced and, indeed, as far as the Chamber is concerned, adjudicated by the Chair. The record is clear and the evidence is there for all to see. People can observe week after week after week after week that there can be abuses on both sides—for example, during Prime Minister’s questions—and every time without fail the Chair intervenes to seek to restore order. It has been the case; it is the case; and it will always be the case. It is not a matter of party politics; it is a matter of procedural propriety, and that is the way that it must continue to be.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) on securing this urgent question.

It is extremely disappointing that the Prime Minister has not respected this House by attending here today. His language and demeanour yesterday were, frankly, nothing short of disgraceful. Three years ago, our colleague—our Member of Parliament—Jo Cox was murdered by a far right activist, shouting, “Britain First. This is for Britain.” The language that politicians use matters and has real consequences. To dismiss concerns from Members about the death threats that they receive and to dismiss concerns that the language used by the Prime Minister is being repeated in those death threats is reprehensible. To dismiss those concerns in an abusive way, as he did, is completely unacceptable. I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Dewsbury (Paula Sherriff) and for Batley and Spen (Tracy Brabin), and other Members, including the right hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), for what they said yesterday.

Today, I have written to all Members of the parliamentary Labour party expressing solidarity with my friends and setting out the conduct expected of all colleagues. No part of this House, as you have said, Mr Speaker, has a monopoly of virtue. Inappropriate language has been used by all parties, but we all have a duty to keep our debates political and not to descend into personal abuse.

I disagreed profoundly with the previous Prime Minister, but she did offer cross-party talks to try to find a compromise. She also set out her approach to this House, allowing for scrutiny and debate. I was pleased to participate in a meeting with her and other party leaders about conduct and abuse in the House and around the parliamentary estate. The current Prime Minister, unfortunately, has sought to entrench divisions, refused to set out any detail of the deal that he is seeking and continues to pledge that we will leave with no deal on 31 October, despite the fact that this House has voted against, and legislated against, such an outcome. Not only should he comply with the law, but he should come to this House and apologise for his conduct yesterday, which fell well below the standards expected by the people of this country of the way their elected representatives should behave, should speak and should treat each other.

[Kevin Foster]

I have outlined what the Government are doing, but the Leader of the Opposition mentioned the murder of Jo Cox—a dreadful crime committed by an extremist. Many of us who were in the House at that time remember exactly where we were when we heard the news of that appalling attack—in my case, I was attending a constituency event. In the same way, many from a previous generation of politics remember where they were when they heard that our colleagues Anthony Berry, Robert Buckland and Airey Neave had been assassinated by those looking to bring terror to this country.

The biggest issue is that delay will just bring more division to this country—

[Mr Speaker]

Robert Bradford.

[Kevin Foster]

I apologise. Thank you for correcting me, Mr Speaker.

In terms of how the Government are tackling this issue, we do need to bring a resolution to debates. As the Leader of the Opposition will know, the Government were clear that we were prepared to take our arguments to the country on Tuesday 15 October and to ask the electorate to pass a judgment. That would have not only given us a chance to resolve the division affecting this House, but given the country a way to move forward. As you yourself have reflected, Mr Speaker, the passions that this issue has inflamed will only carry on if there is not a resolution.

[Anne Milton (Guildford) (Ind)]

I once again associate myself with the remarks you made at the beginning of proceedings today, Mr Speaker. I fear that the Minister is going to go to great lengths to take this argument to the wider issues of MPs’ safety, but this question is about what happened here yesterday. It was completely unacceptable behaviour in every way. Whipping up a crowd and creating division is not helpful, from whichever side it comes. If we cannot deal with these issues in this place, maybe it is time to put aside our party parliamentary T-shirts and our Brexit and remain T-shirts and to put on a T-shirt that stands for parliamentary democracy, unity of purpose, consensus and agreement. Yesterday was unacceptable, and if we do not do something to change things, we are putting our parliamentary democracy under threat.

[Kevin Foster]

The question clearly relates to creating a safe environment in both the country and Parliament; certainly, as the Minister responsible, I do not want this debate to be just about MPs being a case on their own—there are many who face abuse and intimidation, from the judiciary, to journalists, to those who will never be Members of Parliament but who just want to take part in our democratic process.

We heard your comments this morning, Mr Speaker, about some of the thoughts and reflections on what may happen in this place. Ultimately, it is for the House itself to decide how it wishes to regulate itself, how it wishes to behave and what changes it may wish to make to its Standing Orders, and we can, of course, rely on you and whoever is elected to replace you to lead the way in enforcing them.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

As others have said, the scenes in the House of Commons last night were deeply disturbing. The Prime Minister’s tone was appalling, his behaviour was appalling and his language was appalling. We have in No. 10 a man who has built his career on making inflammatory remarks, stoking division and shouting down those who disagree with him. The Prime Minister is not fit for office. His behaviour is an outrage, and his Government are treating people disgracefully.

People want leadership, and they want accountability. Yesterday, the Prime Minister should have come in front of this House and apologised for acting unlawfully. He should have held his hands up, agreed he had acted wrongly and pledged not to do it again. Instead, he chose to brazen it out, proving that he embodies the very worst of the wrongs in our society and totally ignoring the seven principles of public life.

Young people are watching our Parliament today. They are watching and learning that, to get to the top, all they need to do is break the law and shout people down. The House of Commons and the Prime Minister should be setting a good example to all those living across these isles. The Prime Minister should be here today. He should pledge to stop using language that incites hatred or violence, whether that is against other MPs, citizens with different political beliefs, or migrants who have chosen to live and work in the UK. Will the Minister ask the Prime Minister to come before us and do that?

[Kevin Foster]

When we look at creating a safe environment for debate, many colleagues will reflect on exactly how that was shown at times online during the 2014 Scottish independence referendum. However, in terms of the comments that have just been made, if the Scottish National party has no confidence in the Prime Minister, it had a perfect opportunity yesterday to table a motion for debate to that effect today. There was also an opportunity for SNP Members to take their arguments to the country on Tuesday 15 October. However, it is an invitation that they declined.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

There is already a danger of these exchanges turning into a “holier than thou” competition. We should reflect on how much unhappiness and anxiety there is among Members of the House and that this is going to be expressed in various ways. People are going to use robust and emotive language to express their views, and that is entirely understandable. May I just make one request, Mr Speaker—that we no longer invoke the name of any person who has been a victim of attacks in order to try to make political points because—[Interruption.] Well, there we are. It is simply used as an opportunity to shame other Members of this House. I do not think any of the exchanges and mentions of Jo Cox yesterday were particularly fair on her family.

[Kevin Foster]

It is always useful to benefit from my hon. Friend’s experience in this House over many years. He is right to say that we can have robust, emotive debates. The issues settled in this Parliament are of great concern across the nation, and people will rightly get passionate about them, but we should not do so with disrespect, and I know, of course, that if that happened, it would be dealt with.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I gently say to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) that it is not for any Member of this House to determine whether another Member can talk about their own grief and about how they feel in a certain circumstance and whether that should somehow not be allowed.

The language that leaders use matters because it sets the tone for public debate. I am sure I am not alone in looking across the Atlantic at the rallies with crowds of people chanting, “Lock her up!” about Hillary Clinton or, “Send her back!” about Ilhan Omar—by the way, it is no coincidence that women are often the targets of this hate, and especially women of colour—and seeing worrying echoes in our own politics of that Trumpian approach. Can the Minister give any assurance that there will be no deliberate campaign to use that kind of language to inflame? I fear that he cannot, because the repeated use of those inflammatory words by the Prime Minister yesterday was, it seemed, very obviously deliberate.

I would just end by saying that, on Tuesday morning, I spoke to a group of 400 young women. They asked how I dealt with abuse and hate on social media as a woman in public life. They asked whether going into politics was something I would recommend. I want to be able to say to such young women and to all young people that they should play their role in public life. We in this House need to be able to create the environment that enables those young people to come forward into our public life, and I fear that we are failing to do so.

[Kevin Foster]

I think we all want to see an environment where everyone feels they can take part. That is why I have outlined some of what the Government are looking to do, such as legislating on intimidation around election times. The hon. Lady gave examples of what we have seen across the Atlantic. I am sure she will join me in saying that, while I never voted for him, seeing a group of people chanting, “Tony Blair can eff off and die!” is something we would all condemn.

[Jo Swinson]

indicated assent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

I see her indicating that that is the case.

What would inflame the debate further is the idea that we should just have more delay and people feeling that when they do vote and want to have a say, they are ignored. That is why we need to bring the Brexit matter to a resolution, as the Government are seeking to do.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Ind)]

I was only just beginning to stir, Mr Speaker. You spotted me rather promptly!

What concerns me is whether there is any sense of a deliberate strategy in all this. I would like my hon. Friend to reassure me. I assure him that I have been a junior Minister myself, so I do realise he is probably not consulted closely about strategy—I am not sure many members of the Cabinet have much idea of what the strategy is at the moment. Can he allay two fears that I have?

First, it seems to me that the Prime Minister is absolutely desperate to have an election before 31 October, so that he can fight it before the chance of some untoward effects after that date. Also, I fear that the strategy is to fight it on the people versus Parliament platform that Nigel Farage invented and that we are imitating. Will my hon. Friend assure me that what happened yesterday was one of those occasions when people lost control of themselves and the House, not for the first time, erupted in disorder and that this is not part of some grand discrediting of the usual political institutions in order to fight a populist and nationalist campaign?

[Kevin Foster]

As a junior Minister, it is always good to benefit from the advice of the Father of the House. I reassure him that the Government’s strategy is to do what the vast majority of the nation want, which is to bring a resolution to Brexit and deliver the referendum result. I know that the Father of the House has voted for deals and has seen that as compromising and moving forward. The Government will look to fight a general election on a platform of resolving Brexit, no more pointless delay, bringing 20,000 extra police officers on to our streets, increasing school funding and taking our economy forward. I have to say that our platform will be far stronger than that of the Opposition.

[Mr Speaker]

Having called the Father of the House, I want now to call the Mother of the House.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) for bringing forward this urgent question and you, Mr Speaker, for your comments last night and your comments from the Chair this morning. I agree with everything the Father of the House said. I think that what happened last night was just an ugly spectacle of things that have been happening for months and months getting even worse. We all know that hon. Members from all parts of the House have felt inhibited in doing the work that they are elected to this place to do. It is important—it is essential—that everybody who is elected to this House is able to speak out without fear or favour to say what they believe in. Nobody in this House should do anything that stops any other Member exercising that right. Whether it is threats to people who are remainers or people in balaclavas bursting into a university meeting that was being addressed by the Leader of the House, we cannot allow it in our democracy. Nor can we have a situation where Members are fearful not only for themselves and their own safety, but for their staff and their families.

The Minister has mentioned a number of initiatives. Heaven knows, we have had enough discussion and wringing our hands about these problems over the months in this Chamber. We have had a number of initiatives, but there is a lack of coherence and focus for action. That is why the Father of the House and I have proposed a Speaker’s conference that brings together the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, the House authorities and the parties to look at what can be done to ensure that we protect our democracy. It also needs to look at our political culture. We know, for example, that we cannot call each other blackguard, guttersnipe, stoolpigeon or various other things. We need rules of this House that are updated and that protect us and enable us to do our business today.

[Kevin Foster]

I reflect on the productive conversation that I had with the women’s caucus, when the Mother of the House was present. Again, people should be able to speak out. An example was given at that meeting of a female candidate being advised that a solution to the problem was to not campaign on social media. That completely unacceptable solution had been advised by a local council. That would mean that women could not engage in politics in the same way as men, which is completely unacceptable.

The rules of the House may be something you wish to reflect on, Mr Speaker, or that whoever happens to be elected by the House to replace you wishes to work on. Some of those expressions probably are not in common parlance today, by contrast to other statements that are. The Government’s focus is not just on Members of Parliament. This is about all who engages in public life—journalists who face abuse for what they say and others who just want to discharge a public duty or share their opinion in our democracy. We need to ensure that they are covered by any proposals as well.

[Justine Greening (Putney) (Ind)]

Like many people in this Chamber, I was shocked by the unacceptable conduct of the Prime Minister and particularly by his attitude, which succeeded that of the Attorney General earlier in the day, to how this House works. My concern is that these institutions—both the Supreme Court and the judiciary, which we debated earlier, and Parliament, where laws are set in the first place—are absolutely crucial to the wellbeing of people in our country. We all rely on them. All those who are part of these institutions are effectively custodians who should protect their wellbeing for the future.

What we are seeing right now in British politics is effectively, in my view, a deliberate race to the bottom to a form of gutter politics that, unfortunately, directly disadvantages those of us not willing to be part of that race. The sooner the leadership of the main political parties in this country rise to the challenge of showing the levels of integrity in their conduct and behaviour that the British people are entitled to expect, the better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

I always reflect on comments by the right hon. Lady. I say again that we as a Government are committed to ensuring that what we do about public discourse, particularly online via the “Online Harms” White Paper, is not just about how we make sure that people are not breaching the law and how people can participate without fear of abuse, but about ensuring that we tackle some of the disinformation that can have such a corrosive impact on our society. Ultimately, the social media giants have made some moves, but there is obviously a need to do even more.

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

All of us need to take care of our language and none of us is without fault, but the Prime Minister of our country holds a special responsibility. I say to Members across the House, I spent four and a half years opposite David Cameron and I never saw a performance like the one we saw last night from this Prime Minister. He said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle),

“the best way to ensure every parliamentarian is properly safe and to dial down the current anxiety in this country is to get Brexit done.”—[Official Report, 25 September 2019; Vol. 664, c. 803.]

Yes, “safe”.

Everyone in this House shares the frustration about the last three and a half years—in fact, some of us did not want the referendum to happen in the first place—but none of us can agree that the safety of Members of this House should depend on the way they vote in this House. It is a disgrace that the Prime Minister said that yesterday. He should apologise and the Minister should apologise on his behalf.

This language and the language of surrender suggest that we are at war either with Europe or with each other. Let me say, as someone who grew up with parents who were born in the shadow of war: we are not at war with Europe and we are not at war with each other. Go down any street in this country and there are people who voted remain, there are people who voted leave and there are people with different views about how Brexit should be resolved.

The Prime Minister has a special responsibility. He is not exercising that responsibility; he is trying to divide an already divided country. Some people say this strategy will work. I say this strategy will not work, because the British people are better than this.

[Kevin Foster]

It was interesting to hear the right hon. Gentleman’s brief mention of his parents. I remember the attacks he faced in terms of his own father and his reaction to them. I thought those attacks took politics to a place which was not appropriate. We should always judge Members by who they are and what they say, not seek to attack their family. In terms of the strategy, I am very clear, when we liaise with the police and when we talk to them about appropriate measures to be taken, that that applies whatever opinion anyone adopts within this House. I suspect my discussions are more likely to focus on those who may strongly disagree with me but have absolutely every right to put those arguments forward and to have measures in place to protect them—and not just from those things that cross the boundaries of the criminal law, but also from incessant abuse online, particularly when it is ill-informed.

But as we all know, we as a Government wanted to give the British people an opportunity express their views on Tuesday 15 October 2019. Sadly, for the first time in history, a Government wanted an election to resolve the matter but were blocked from doing so by the Opposition.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

There is a strategy. The Prime Minister is the last thing standing against ending the Brexit enterprise entirely. He can expect no quarter. Absolutely everything is going to be thrown at him, isn’t it?

[Kevin Foster]

I think it is safe to say, as you yourself reflected, Mr Speaker, that the Brexit process has provoked passions and arguments and debate, but I think where the Prime Minister is very clear is that his view is the way to deal with this, and the Government’s view is that we should ensure that we deliver Brexit on 31 October 2019.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

The challenge of what the Minister is saying is that this is not actually about Brexit, and nor, for many of us, is this about how we make this stop. If we want to do that we need to understand where it starts, and how the extremists on all sides of our political culture will trump proudly about how they might stand at Cable Street to defend people’s rights, or will listen to Steve Bannon and disagree with him, but have absolutely no understanding or comprehension of how we get to a Cable Street or how we get to a Steve Bannon in the first place. The danger with the Prime Minister’s conduct last night is that it is feeding a culture and a language that normalise extremism, so that those of us who have had “Traitor!” shouted at us in the street, as well as online—because the online and the offline are no different—experience this as “the heat of the kitchen” rather than as language that does nobody any favours in our democracy.

The most important thing the Minister can do now is go and listen to what we are missing, because this does not affect everyone equally. We are still going to have white men of a certain age, with independent means, in our politics. It is the young people, the women, the people from minority communities, who are already saying they are not going to take part in our politics, not because they have already experienced the rape threats and the death threats, the bomb threats and the intimidation, but because they see it. When the trolls are in Parliament, how do we stop feeding the trolls?

[Kevin Foster]

As the hon. Lady outlines, what is important is that we get the message out there that action is being taken, not just online—as she said, the law applies online as it does offline—and that we tell people that they have a place here, that they can make a difference and that their votes count. Ultimately, the longer indecision goes on on one issue—Brexit—the more there will be frustrations, but that does not justify people crossing the line of abuse in hatred and intimidation. It needs to be clear that the same legal standard will apply, at whichever extreme people are. There are two sides of the same coin of hate.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Ind)]

I fear I might be repetitive because last night I asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether it was not just about language but about tone. I commend my hon. Friend the Minister for his tone today, but how would he suggest that I should respond to those in the beautiful marketplace of Romsey who three Saturdays ago told me I was a traitor who deserved to be shot, when the language of “traitor” is heard in this House?

[Kevin Foster]

As I said earlier, there is no one in this House who is a traitor; there is no one in this House who should be threatened in that way. Those who shouted that in the marketplace should realise that if they talk such nonsense and make such threats, there is a criminal law that they can be held accountable to.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (LD)]

Our words carry consequences. They reverberate far and wide beyond these four walls. The Prime Minister, who holds the highest office in our land, also bears the greatest responsibility for what he says and inspires. I do not believe that the Minister can tell this House that he seeks to reduce online harm while the Prime Minister booms out toxic, divisive soundbites, the clips of which are immediately posted and promoted on online, hate-filled social media channels. We have seen the incidents of hate crime in our country increase, and as a Member of this House who has seen no fewer than six people convicted of harassment and hate crimes directed at me, can I ask the Minister to take back to this Prime Minister that he must urgently reconsider this deliberate strategy of sowing seeds of division in our country?

[Kevin Foster]

As the hon. Lady rightly indicates, those who behave in certain ways will face the criminal justice system and conviction for their offences. However, I would just gently reflect that a national party going round with the slogan “Bollocks to Brexit” will not necessarily help tone down the debate. Ultimately, for us all, bringing a resolution to this issue is a key part of what this Parliament is meant to be here for, and if we cannot do it in this Parliament, I would look forward to having the mature, sensible and informed debate with the electorate that we should have been having on Tuesday 15 October.

[Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con)]

Mr Speaker, if you were to reread your Samuel Pepys, you would find a line in the diaries of over 350 years ago, which says that so low had the rump fallen in the eyes of the people, that the lads in the street

“do now cry, ‘Kiss my Parliament’”.

If we are to avoid that same reputation persisting today, in our current politics, may I ask the Minister and all in this House to apply to our conduct of social media the same standards that you, Mr Speaker, are asking for today, and that it should include us, journalists and the wider public if we are not to see the continuing debasement of the body politic?

[Kevin Foster]

I am not sure whether I shall be using the “Kiss my Parliament” adage. [Interruption.] Well, I suppose, it is a new take on the famous “Never kissed an MP” T-shirt that some people like to wear. However, my right hon Friend is absolutely right to say that it is not just about MPs; it is about journalists, judges—anyone involved in public life. Some of the comments that have been directed at one journalist this morning would hardly be seen as the top brow of political debate. As I said, though, it is about the Government looking to create an environment that is safe for all to engage in, not just within this House, because ultimately the culture of debate outside this House will be reflected in the Parliament that is elected to be in this House.

[Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)]

Down the years that I have been a Member of this House, we have had memorable and important debates on highly contested issues—on Iraq, when I remember Robin Cook’s speech; on 9/11, when I remember David Blunkett’s speech; on the great crash, when I actually remember Gordon Brown’s speech. When I come into the Chamber today—I think last night was the culmination of a trend—I feel I am coming into a session of the Bullingdon Club. That is what it feels like in here. That culture is set by the leadership; it is always set by the leadership.

The courageous thing that the Prime Minister could have done today would have been to come to this House and explain to us why he thinks that style of leadership is appropriate. In his absence, will the Minister tell us what practical steps the Prime Minister will undertake to set a new culture of leadership that brings this House back to sensible debate on critical issues and makes us the important Chamber that we should be?

[Kevin Foster]

When reflecting on some of the great debates and issues of the past, I sometimes wonder how the political discourse might have been affected if Twitter, Facebook and other social media had existed at that time. That certainly applies to the 1975 referendum.

The Prime Minister and the Government will continue the work that we have already outlined to tackle intimidation, hatred and abuse, and, during the current Parliament, bring back a deal that will deliver the referendum result and finally put the Brexit issue to bed. I hope we can look forward to wide cross-party support for that.

[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

In the context of creating more diversity in Parliament, does the Minister agree that the toxic, nasty, aggressive behaviour that is emanating from all parts of the House is preventing many more women—and some men—from coming to the House, feeling safe, enjoying it and believing that Parliament is a place where they can achieve, progress and reach their full potential?

[Kevin Foster]

I hear my hon. Friend’s passion. We do want more people to feel that they can stand for election, not just to Parliament but to their local council, or to become an elected mayor or a police and crime commissioner, without facing the type of abuse that some have sadly faced in recent years. However, people should also see Parliament as a place where decisions are made, rather than a place that ends up on a merry-go-round of delay without actually making a decision on behalf of the nation. That, ultimately, is why people stand for Parliament—they want to make that difference—and we want to see people from all backgrounds here. I am a comprehensive school kid, the son of a Paignton labourer, and not many of my type used to get into Parliament; but we can now.

[Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab)]

Yesterday, I asked the Prime Minister to moderate his language, because I desperately wanted to remind him that words have consequences. I accept that it is necessary for all of us in this place to reflect on our language and our behaviour. After all, I have been known to have the odd heckle here.

I am grateful for the solidarity shown by my fellow MPs, including many on the Government Benches, but last night I was horrified to see a tweet from the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Mr Clarke); I will not refer to him as “honourable”. I informed his office that I would be raising this issue today. The tweet that he sent last night appeared to mock me, referring to the Labour party as toxic—which, sadly, brought more abuse.

The Minister has said that his Government want to stamp out abuse, but how can we believe him when the Prime Minister describes genuine concerns expressed by female MPs as “humbug”? This morning, his official spokesperson confirmed that the Prime Minister has no regrets about the language that he used. Will the Minister confirm that the tweet from the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland reflects the view of the Government? Will he also take the opportunity, further to the comments from the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson, to say that he stands by the Prime Minister’s comment that threats to female MPs—death threats and daily abuse—are humbug?

[Kevin Foster]

My own speeches have been subjected to the odd heckle from the hon. Lady, and I always recognise the spirit in which that is done: a spirit of passionate competition and disagreement rather than, necessarily, of disrespect for my remarks.

The Government are introducing a defending democracy programme and are taking action to deal with online harms and tackle the social media giants in this regard. As the Minister with responsibility for this policy area, I think that the hon. Lady should take account of what the Government intend to do, and I hope that we will have her support when we introduce legislation to deal with intimidation before an election. Ultimately, the test will lie in what difference we can all make through legislation and by tackling those who feel that they can abuse people online with impunity as they would never do in the street.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

It is a sad fact that a study of Parliaments across Europe found that more than four out of 10 women MPs had received threats of death, rape or beating. The language that we use does matter, and the language that was used yesterday by Members in all parts of the House was unacceptable. We need to dial it down.

Let me also remind Members that, unfortunately, the protest on the night when we last met unleashed a huge amount of hatred towards people who had voted to leave. Colleagues who had voted to leave in the House had to pull nails and screws out of their car tyres last week because of the threats and the language used against them—and the Liberal Democrats, sadly, are not innocent in this respect.

There are four actions that I what to see. [Hon. Members: “Four?”] Four. First of all, Mr Speaker—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Let me just very gently say to the House that, as experienced Members know, there was a time when statements did not run for very long and not many Members were called. That has changed, and over the last decade I have called nearly everybody most of the time. The idea that if you do not call everyone every time they want to speak, that is somehow unfair, is so manifestly absurd that I think that most of the House would recognise it as such. I do what I can to stand up for the rights of this House and those of right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of it. I have done that for a decade; I am doing it now; and I will go on doing it. I am standing up for the important principle of the decency of our democracy, and I should have thought that that was pretty fair.

[Kevin Foster]

Let me first compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) on the work that she does, as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on women in Parliament, to ensure that the views of women both inside and outside Parliament are heard.

Yes, this is about having a calm and dignified debate, taking the challenge in the way it is meant and responding to it in a dignified way. The Government are seeking to work together to heal the divisions by bringing an end to the Brexit process, and doing so by delivering the result of the referendum. The longer the delay and indecision continue, the more, sadly, this argument will continue.

[Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I was elected to this place on the day that Jo Cox was taken from us. A week later, we had the EU referendum.

I have only ever known a politics of division in this place. It is beyond embarrassing that the Prime Minister has sent a junior Minister with a folder full of rebuttals today, making every excuse in the book. So I ask the Minister this: what does it say in your little folder about the Prime Minister acknowledging that unless he dials down the tone, unless he watches his language and adopts the position of statesperson, the wounds that divide this country will turn into scars—permanent scars?

[Kevin Foster]

The hon. Lady made the point herself that, for over three years, this Parliament has been absolutely focused on rows and debates around Brexit. Hundreds of hours have been spent on it and we are unable to move on to the agenda that many people wish to see us discussing. The best way to finally bring that debate to an end and to move on is to support the Prime Minister in getting a deal, and I hope we will have her support when he brings a deal back.

[Mr David Gauke (South West Hertfordshire) (Ind)]

At best, the Prime Minister’s answers to some of the questions last night were deeply insensitive, but the concern that many of us have is that there is a deliberate strategy of division and confrontation. Can the Minister reassure me that the Conservative party and the Government are not going to pursue a strategy of division, of confrontation and of the undermining of the institutions that protect the peace and stability of our citizens?

[Kevin Foster]

I can reassure my right hon. Friend that the Conservative party, going into a general election, will go forward with a manifesto that seeks to serve the country and unite the country, but a key part of doing that is bringing a resolution to the Brexit process. I know he has supported a deal, and I hope when the Prime Minister brings back a deal we can look forward to his support again.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill

Kevin Foster Excerpts

Ping Pong: House of Commons
Monday 9th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 to 12.

[Kevin Foster]

Given the wide consensus that the Bill has attracted, I do not propose to go on too long—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] It is nice to be liked. The Government committed to bring the spirit of several amendments that were supported in this House on Report to the other place, with appropriate wording and at the appropriate place in the Bill. We are pleased that these amendments were also supported in the other place and are now included in the Bill. They include an amendment on heritage, which was brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and requires that, in exercising its functions, the Sponsor Body must have regard to the special architectural, archaeological and historical significance of the Palace of Westminster.

As agreed in the House, the Bill now places a duty on the Sponsor Body to require the Delivery Authority, when considering the awarding of a contract in respect of the carrying of the parliamentary building works, to have regard to the prospective contractor’s policy relating to corporate social responsibility and their policies and procedures relating to employment, including in relation to the blacklisting of employees. I am especially grateful for the collaborative approach and constructive contribution of the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) in formulating that amendment.

The Bill now provides that the reports prepared by the Sponsor Body must be laid before Parliament and must include information about persons to whom contracts in respect of the carrying out of the parliamentary building works have been awarded, in particular with regard to their size and the areas in which they operate. I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) for her collaboration in formatting that amendment.

Lastly, in exercising its functions, the Sponsor Body must now have regard to the need to ensure that opportunities to secure economic or other benefits of the parliamentary building works are available in all areas of the United Kingdom. I would particularly like to thank the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) for collaborating on that amendment and for his work as a member of the shadow Sponsor Body.

I am sure that the House welcomes the fulfilment of the Government’s commitments to the House that these amendments would be included in the Bill at the appropriate place and appropriately drafted. Other amendments passed in the Lords and are now included in the Bill, and I consider that they echo the will of the House, particularly as they build on the recommendations of the prelegislative Joint Committee. There are also minor technical amendments that ensure consistent references to the parliamentary building works in clause 2(5).

In summary, the Bill has benefited from close scrutiny both by the Joint Committee and during its passage through both Houses. I hope the House, having considered the amendments passed in the other place, will concur with them and support the passing of the Bill as it stands, so that we can progress with these important works and secure the home of this United Kingdom Parliament for future generations.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Mr Speaker, may I start by paying tribute to you and your excellent role as Speaker? I was one of the people who dragged you to the Chair, and you have been outstanding. I will come on to your role with the Education Centre. You have been a stalwart in terms of equality. In your efforts to help me in my role as shadow Leader of the House, you have been exemplary. I will miss business questions, and particularly your jibes at us all. Thank you for everything you have done to uphold the parliamentary system; it has been very good. [Interruption.] That was for you, Mr Speaker.

I thank the Minister for bringing the Bill back to this House, and I thank all Members who have taken part in the debates on restoration and renewal. I am pleased that the Bill has come back, and I want to pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), who started the push to move the restoration and renewal Bill forward. I want to deal with the amendments—it is important to get them on record—in three chunks, one relating to the Sponsor Body, one to the physical aspects and one to the future.

We have the Sponsor Body, which will be a single client on behalf of both Houses, and that is a good way of working. It will form the Delivery Authority as a company limited by guarantee. Amendments 10 and 12 require the Sponsor Body to lay its reports before Parliament. One of the key things that Members wanted was the accountability of the Sponsor Body to Parliament, and the amendments will ensure that. Amendment 11 will ensure that we know about all the contracts that are awarded to different companies and the people who operate around the estate.

Amendment 1 is fairly important because it is about having regard to the prospective contractor’s policy relating to corporate social responsibility and the prospective contractor’s policies and procedures relating to employment, which is about the blacklisting of people. Many lives have been destroyed by people being blacklisted and not being allowed to take part in contracts. That is extremely important, and I want to thank my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) for ensuring that this has been passed.

Amendment 9 will require the Sponsor Body, in exercising its functions, to have regard to the need to ensure that there are opportunities to secure economic or other benefits throughout the United Kingdom. That is key, certainly on our side, and it is one of the reasons why we support this Bill wholeheartedly. We wanted to make sure that any benefits were not just confined to one part of the United Kingdom, but go to the whole United Kingdom.

As the Minister said about the physical parts, it is important to ensure that the historical, archaeological and other significance of Parliament continues. That is covered by amendment 8, remembering that it was 900 years ago when the Anglo-Saxons were first involved in this place—and some of them might still be here.

Amendment 5 seeks to ensure that, after the completion of the parliamentary building works, all parts of the estate are accessible to people with disabilities. I know that the hon. Members for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) and for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) were involved in this, and they certainly raised it on Third Reading. If we look at what happens at York Minster, we know we can combine accessibility for people with disabilities with keeping up the building’s historical significance.

As to the future, amendments 4 and 6 strengthen the reference to parliamentary building works in relation to ensuring the safety and security of staff and the public, as well as in relation to the education facilities. Amendment 7 secures your legacy of the Education Centre, Mr Speaker. It makes sure that Parliament’s education and outreach facilities and programme are ensured and that they become a core part of the parliamentary estate and provide a benefit in a greater understanding of Parliament and our democracy. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney) mentioned the craft school in Scotland. I know that Historic England is aware of it and wants to carry on with this, which could be an outstanding way to ensure that all our crafts—ancient and modern—are secured for our future.

Amendment 2 will place a duty on the Sponsor Body to promote public understanding of the purposes of the restoration and renewal programme, and amendment 3 will ensure that the views of Members, staff and the public are at the front of the Sponsor Body’s mind. Everyone across the nation should feel a part of this project, because this place is in the heart of the nation. We do not have a deadline, as the Olympic Delivery Authority did, so the important part is that we make sure there is a deadline, as Members’ tolerance and the public purse are not elastic. However, I again join the Minister in saying that it is important that this is all secured for future generations, and we support the Bill.