Principles of Democracy and the Rights of the Electorate
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Oliver Dowden)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate.
This is a Government who believe in letting the British people exercise their democratic rights, and as Minister for the Cabinet Office my responsibilities include the smooth running and safeguarding of our elections and ensuring that every elector has the opportunity to cast their vote.
Since we came to office in 2010, we have made significant progress to give more people a say. Through the implementation of individual electoral registration, we have grown the electoral roll to nearly 47 million people—the biggest that it has ever been. People across the country are now able to go online to ensure that they have the opportunity to cast their votes. We have worked to open up the franchise for homeless people and increased accessibility for those with disabilities. We have committed to introducing voter ID, to protect the ballot and to stop those who want to steal other people’s identities and votes. Voters deserve to have confidence that their elections are secure and protected from electoral fraud.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
Can the Minister tell me what evidence he has that introducing voter ID reduces the amount of fraud more than it reduces the participation of legitimate voters?
Oliver Dowden
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I would recommend that he read the Electoral Commission’s report on that subject. I frankly find it astounding that Opposition Members should think that we should not have identity for voting. People in major democracies such as Canada are aghast that people can turn up at our polling stations with no evidence of their identity.
Several hon. Members rose—
Oliver Dowden
I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker).
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
To help the Minister on this point, I can tell him that the very first moment that I get a chance to sit at my desk I will be asking him to come to the House for an end-of-day Adjournment debate, in which I will give him evidence from my constituents of the kind of practice that is going on in my constituency, in their view, which I am quite sure will stand up to the requirement to make the changes that he would advocate.
Oliver Dowden
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe for his intervention. I always welcome his help and support in relation to evidence, and look forward to that discussion.
Several hon. Members rose—
Oliver Dowden
I will give way once more, but am conscious of the need to make progress.
Mr Baker
The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) asked, “Will you take it to the police?” I am happy to tell the House today that in the 2015 election, my agent and I told our candidates—because there was a district council election at the same time as mine—that if there was any evidence of malfeasance we would be the first to take it to the police; so I found myself knocking on the door of the police station with the Liberal Democrat candidate and my agent, to report somebody who was subsequently arrested. Unfortunately he was not prosecuted, and he was one of mine. I will not have any abuse of the electoral system, and although I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, I must tell him that we have got to sort this mess out.
Oliver Dowden
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. There is nothing further that I can add to that, but I noticed that the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) was seeking my eye.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Is the Minister aware that in Northern Ireland, as a result of the increase in proxy votes and postal votes, to which the Electoral Commission has turned a blind eye, and which is done on an industrial scale by Sinn Féin, who look at the marked register, find out who has not voted in the last election, visit them and get the forms filled in, at least two members of the SDLP probably lost their seats to electoral fraud in the last election? Will he take that matter up with the Electoral Commission, which seems to have no desire to address that issue?
Oliver Dowden
Obviously, the Electoral Commission Northern Ireland is independent, but the right hon. Gentleman has made his point very clearly.
Several hon. Members rose—
Oliver Dowden
If Members will forgive me, I will make a little more progress, and then I will give way to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown).
We are working to reduce intimidation around the ballot box, and intimidation of those in public life. I am sure the whole House will agree that the latter is a deeply worrying trend that we must reverse. Indeed, earlier this year the Government legislated to prevent candidates in local elections from having to declare their addresses on the ballot paper. We have consulted on, and committed ourselves to, a new electoral offence to prevent people from intimidating candidates and campaigners.
However—and this, really, is the essence of the debate—more important than the preparations for an election are the consequences of that election. One seismic democratic event has dominated our proceedings since I was elected to the House in 2015, and that, of course, is our referendum on membership of the European Union. It was something that we had promised in the manifesto on which I was elected, and I well recall the deep scepticism of voters that we would ever deliver on it. Frankly, I do not blame the voters. Other parties had been promising referendums for years: Labour in 2005, the Liberal Democrats in 2008, and the Greens in 2010. In fact, one way or another, every major political party in Britain fought an election between 2005 and 2015 with a pledge to hold a referendum on our relationship with Europe.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Earlier, the Minister talked about how the Government had been extending the franchise. One of the consequences of the in-out EU referendum was an issue involving the franchise: the UK Government did not think that EU citizens were worthy of a vote. In Scotland, in the 2014 referendum, we did give EU citizens a vote, because we recognised the value of their contribution. What message does the Minister think is being sent out by not giving those EU citizens a vote?
Oliver Dowden
As the hon. Gentleman well knows, the parliamentary franchise that was applied to the referendum was the same parliamentary franchise that applies in other elections, because there was not a case for changing it.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; he is being very generous.
It is great that we are celebrating the extension of the franchise and that more people are voting in all elections, but does my hon. Friend agree that one issue is very concerning? If our democracy is to work well, citizens must have impartial information. They need to be well informed in order to make informed choices. Websites such as that of 38 Degrees are not providing information about the work of MPs in an impartial way. Will my hon. Friend agree to work with the Hansard Society, which does such an excellent job, to demystify the work of MPs in this place so that our constituents understand it and can make informed decisions when they come to the ballot box?
Oliver Dowden
My hon. Friend has made an excellent suggestion. I am sitting next to the Minister for the Constitution, my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster). We would have to proceed on an all-party basis, but I should be happy for us to take that suggestion further.
Several hon. Members rose—
Oliver Dowden
I will take a couple more interventions, but then I really must make some progress. I will give way to the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer).
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister. He is absolutely right: all the political parties have, at one time or another, made a commitment to a referendum. In their 2010 manifestos, the three major parties gave a commitment to hold a referendum on what became the Lisbon treaty, better known as the European constitution, although unfortunately the majority of MPs did not comply with those manifesto commitments. Does the Minister agree, however, that the parties that support a referendum, either in the House or in their manifestos, should accept the result when they lose?
Oliver Dowden
The hon. Gentleman has made an excellent point. As I was about to say, I supported remain during the referendum campaign, but from the early hours of the morning, when we received the result, I was completely clear about the fact that my job, as a Member of Parliament, and the job of the Government was to deliver on it, and that is exactly what we should be doing.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
May I return the Minister to the subject of EU citizens? When I am out campaigning in the streets of Edinburgh South West in a British general election, EU citizens often come up to me and ask why they are allowed to vote in a Scottish parliamentary election but not in a British general election. Given that EU citizens make a net contribution to the British economy, what possible justification is there for not allowing them to vote for the Government of the whole United Kingdom rather than just the Government of Scotland?
Oliver Dowden
It is generally the case that there are not reciprocal voting rights, and our position aligns with that of virtually every other European state in that regard, so I do not think we are outriders in the way that the hon. and learned Lady suggests.
People were surprised that we actually delivered on that referendum. We were not the only ones to support holding it. In the Lobby, we won by 544 votes to 53 to give people a say, which is 10:1. Indeed, seven of the eight Liberal Democrat MPs voted for it. That was quite a strong showing, really, for a party that now says that the outcome of the referendum does not count. After we voted for the referendum, we went to the public and made our case. Did any of us make the argument then, as is now being advanced by some, that the referendum was merely advisory? No, we were absolutely clear that this was in or out, remain or leave. Every vote was equal, every vote would count, and whatever the outcome, we would respect it: no caveats, no small print.
As I said to the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton, I supported remain in the campaign but—do you know what—I accepted immediately that we had lost. The British people took a different view, and that was their right. From the moment that result was declared I accepted it, because one thing I believe passionately is that politicians do not get to choose which votes to respect. When we ask the public for an answer and they give us one, we should simply get on and deliver it, even if it was not the result that was desired. The House seemed overwhelmingly to accept this, and it invoked article 50 with very little dissent. Immediately afterwards, we had an election in which 80% of the people voted for parties whose manifestos explicitly supported the United Kingdom leaving the EU. This represented a second democratic event relating to our membership of the European Union and a second mandate from the British people to leave.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
The Labour party manifesto, for which many millions of people voted, explicitly said that we would respect the outcome of the referendum but that we would absolutely work against a no-deal Brexit.
Oliver Dowden
I say to the hon Gentleman that a deal was put forward by the last Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and I voted for that deal three times. I do not remember the hon. Gentleman being in the Lobby with me.
Since that moment of unity on the outcome of the general election campaign, parliamentarians have got stuck. We have talked endlessly about this. There have been hours of debates, motions, votes and Committees, and extraordinary parliamentary manoeuvres on all sides. Three whole years have ticked by, and while we have been double-checking the finer points of “Erskine May”, the public have been wondering what on earth we have been doing in this place.
Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
The Minister has talked about the spirit of unity. Will he join me in congratulating the 11 members of Her Majesty’s major Opposition party who are attending this debate? Having forced us back after demanding that Prorogation should not happen, the rest have all gone home.
Oliver Dowden
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I remember the cries of outrage on Prorogation and the demands that Parliament should return because we had so much to discuss. Opposition Members were desperate to discuss these things, yet here we are, mid-afternoon on a Thursday, two days in, and I think I can count the number of Labour Members present on the fingers of one hand.
None of us came into Parliament to avoid making decisions, to duck the issues or to indulge ourselves in parliamentary processes, but to the outside world this appears to be exactly what the House is doing.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
If, as the right hon. Gentleman says, we were not elected to avoid making decisions, why did he seek to support a Prorogation when we still had 12 Bills outstanding?
Oliver Dowden
We could spend forever rehashing the political and legal arguments relating to Prorogation. The Government have accepted the outcome of the Supreme Court, although we disagree with it, and that has put an end to the matter. I do not think it will serve the House to discuss it any further. That is why we are back in this place.
To the outside world, all the House appears to do is say no: no to a second referendum; no to the single market; no to a customs union; no, no and no again to a deal. Perhaps most bizarrely of all, Her Majesty’s Opposition urge no to a no confidence motion. It is clear that we have reached an impasse. This Parliament becomes more entrenched and less effective by the day.
Justine Greening (Putney) (Ind)
The Minister will know that the closest the House came to saying yes was when we held indicative votes. They took place over approximately four sitting days and we managed to get closer to an agreement than the previous Prime Minister had done in about two years, ignoring the House when it said that it did not support her withdrawal agreement. Is one option for the Government to explore again across the House what can find consensus? If that consensus was on a deal, but a deal to be put back to the people in a referendum, would the Minister accept the House’s yes to that step forward?
Oliver Dowden
The right hon. Lady is a passionate campaigner for a second referendum, but I seem to recall that the only amendment that passed was the Brady amendment, which sought to remove the backstop. That is precisely the position that the Prime Minister is pursuing in his negotiations.
Justine Greening
We are back here because Britain is in crisis. We have not prorogued or had a recess because of that. I simply ask the Minister an important question: if the House agreed to pass the Prime Minister’s deal, subject to a referendum, would the Government accept that?
Oliver Dowden
No, it is not the Government’s position to support a second referendum.
Oliver Dowden
For the simple reason that I honestly do not believe that a second referendum would solve anything. I have yet to hear people who voted leave proposing a second referendum.
Oliver Dowden
I am answering the right hon. Lady’s point, if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me.
The only proponents of a second referendum are those who wish to reverse the result of the first. If we were then in a position whereby we had one vote for leave in a referendum and one vote for remain in another referendum, how would that in any way solve the situation? Surely a better solution is to agree a deal and for the House to pass that deal so that the country can move on, which it so desperately wishes to do.
Sammy Wilson
Does the Minister accept that some of those who call for a second referendum have even made it clear that if it gave a result that they did not like, they would not accept it anyway?
Oliver Dowden
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right.
The Government have offered yet another electoral event to try to solve the matter. We have been clear that we wish to have a general election; so we could go back to the public a third time. However, I do not suspect that, in the end, the result would be any different—people want us to get on with this. The consequences of ignoring the principle of the electorate’s right to have their decisions implemented are only too real. People are losing faith. A recent poll found that 77% of people say that their trust in MPs across the political spectrum has fallen since the Brexit vote. Another found that opinions of our governing system are at their lowest for 15 years—lower even than during the expenses scandal. I am sure that all hon. Members agree that we do not want that to continue.
What are we, as MPs, here for? We are here to represent the people. We are not here for ourselves, but for the people who elected us—the people whom we serve—and to vote, decide and deliver. When we cannot do that, we must surely accept that the right and proper thing to do is submit ourselves again to the electorate. We go back to our constituents and ask the electorate for the chance to serve them again or let them choose someone else. That is how our Parliament is supposed to work when it faces gridlock—to refresh itself through a general election—and that is why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has twice offered the opportunity to have that general election, but now we are faced with the most extraordinary “no” of all. The Leader of the Opposition has twice said no to calling that general election.
Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)
The Prime Minister put forward the chance of an election, and that election would have taken place before the European Council. It would have been possible at that European Council for the Prime Minister, whether the current Leader of the Opposition or the present Prime Minister, to propose a change and to get the deal they want. Why does my right hon. Friend think the Opposition are so afraid of having that opportunity to be in government and to attend that Council?
Oliver Dowden
I think my right hon. Friend answers his own question. It is only too clear that there is only one reason why the Opposition do not wish to have an election: they do not believe they will win it. They wish to keep this Parliament in a state of suspended animation until they think they may have a chance to win a general election.
Indeed, even as the Opposition continue to frustrate a general election, leaflets from the Labour party are dropping through voters’ letterboxes demanding an election. It is an extraordinary state of affairs, and this from a Leader of the Opposition who has spent his life going weak at the knees for revolutionaries. He suddenly seems rather scared of change. Apparently there is a world to win and nothing to lose but chains, but maybe just not right now. Is it not the truth that the public have had enough of this dither and delay? They are saying “enough,” and we are saying “enough.” If the Opposition do not have the courage to say what they are for, they should at least have the courage to ask the electorate what they think of that.
Conservative Members have always recognised that the principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate matter. I am proud to be in a Conservative party that, time and again, has embraced reform to give people their say and has represented them effectively. We are the party of Disraeli’s second Reform Act, which helped enfranchise the working classes; of the law that gave all women the same right to vote as men; of the first female Member of Parliament to take her seat; and, of course, of two great female Prime Ministers.
In this case, the principle also unlocks something far more practical: 17.4 million people gave us an instruction three years ago to leave the EU, and they want us to move on. I am conscious that Mr Deputy Speaker also wishes me to move on, so I will wind up my remarks very shortly.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
We are obviously up against time. The spokespeople for the other parties need to come in, and 14 Back Benchers also want to speak. I am concerned that we will run out of time very quickly.
Oliver Dowden
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
We want to get on with our job as legislators and move on to the things that people want us to focus on: their hospitals, their schools and the safety of their streets. That is what this Government are determined to do.
I commend this motion to the House.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)
It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. This has been a fascinating debate and we have heard a range of contributions. In the spirit of civility, I say that I always enjoy my conversations with my two shadows, the hon. Members for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) and for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith). I hope they agree that we treat each other with respect and that although we may disagree at times, we are still able to find common ground in the mutual interest of those we represent.
I will start by responding to some of the issues raised. Contrary to some of the comments we have heard, the individual electoral registration reforms produced the biggest electoral roll ever at the last general election, with more people registering to vote than ever before. Online registration is one of the easiest methods for younger voters in particular to get themselves on the electoral roll. That is a sign of commitment. It is now literally possible to register online. People can do it in a few minutes. They no longer have to get a form and send it to their local council. Obviously, the arrangements in Northern Ireland are slightly different. Many of us know the reasons for that, and it has a more devolved structure.
Kevin Foster
I will not take interventions, given that I have given up time to allow more Members to contribute to the debate.
We are also looking at reforming the annual canvass and are working constructively with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. The system is great at identifying people who have lived in one location for a long time, but we want to reform it, through the use of databases and other information, so that it targets other communities that we also want on the electoral register. We want a modern system. Fundamentally, the system originated in the 19th century, when heads of household would register to vote on behalf of the whole household, but that does not reflect modern lifestyles. It also means that resources are not targeted to getting the most vulnerable on the roll.
It has been good to hear some of the other speeches. I cannot go through them in detail, but I certainly enjoyed the contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) and for Isle of Wight (Mr Seely), especially when they talked about picking and choosing results. It is interesting to see how referendums described as once in a generation or once in a lifetime, with people told, “You have the power in your hands to make a sovereign choice,” suddenly, a couple of years later, become a matter of, “Actually, we’d like to have a rethink, please, and it was only an opinion poll.” In fact, referendums are different: people are told that they will make the decision and it will be binding.
People know my views on the separation of the Union; I think it would be a hugely retrograde step. However, had that been the decision of the Scottish people in 2014, we would have had to vote through the legislation. We cannot pick and choose which result we respect.
David Linden
Is it not true that the Cabinet Office has done polling on Scottish independence? If it has, will it release it?
Kevin Foster
The Cabinet Office conducts polling on a range of issues. There is no shortage of opinion polls on Scottish independence. I enjoyed seeing the separatists’ response to a recent poll: they complained that the poll was unfair because the question was about whether people wanted to remain in the United Kingdom. They thought that people being asked to remain in something was unfair, which is interesting, given their views on other topics. It was the Scottish National party itself that described the Scottish independence referendum as a once-in-a-generation event; now, only a few years later, the duration of a generation appears to have become extremely brief.
The key principle of our democracy is to give voters a choice. Just over three years ago, this Parliament gave voters a choice on whether this country would remain a member of the European Union. We had a strong debate and campaigns up and down the country. Not one person said, “Well, if you feel like voting, it’s next week, but it won’t make much of a difference.” No one said that; everyone said that whatever the decision, it would be implemented. Here we are, a few years later, having had a general election in which, as my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office pointed out, more than 80% of voters voted for a party that said it would respect the referendum result, and it still has not been implemented. That is where we see the principle: we cannot pick and choose which votes we respect. That is especially true of those who voted for the legislation to hold a referendum, took part in the campaign, argued their case and then, almost from the day after, decided that respecting the result was an optional extra.
This Government will remain focused on our programme not just to deliver Brexit, but to defend our democracy overall. In part, that involves making sure that we protect the ballot by bringing in the long-recommended system of voter identification, replacing an identity check that dates from the 19th century, when only a very small percentage of men could vote, with a modern system similar to ones used in many other democracies, and remarkably similar to the system used in Northern Ireland introduced by the Labour party. We will also seek to improve accessibility and make sure that more people can get to the polling station and cast their vote.
It is welcome that the Government tabled the motion. I expected that those who have spent most of the past two days attacking the Government and running down the Prime Minister, saying they had no great confidence in the Government, would try to test that confidence, but sadly they decided they did not want to do that. Normally in our democracy, the Opposition are itching to replace the Government. This must be one of the first times in history that the main Opposition have not tabled a motion of no confidence in the Government because they think they might win. It has been remarkable to see.
When a general election does come—an election we have already offered, which makes it interesting to hear about constituents being gagged when it is the other side who are blocking the election and we are the ones offering it—people had better consider who reflects their principles and their choices. When they do that, they will inevitably conclude that my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) is far more likely to deliver what they want than the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn).
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate.