John Healey
Main Page: John Healey (Labour - Rawmarsh and Conisbrough)Department Debates - View all John Healey's debates with the Ministry of Defence
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Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
The Prime Minister commissioned the strategic defence review within two weeks of taking office. It will ensure that the UK is secure at home and strong abroad, both now and in years to come. The review is the first of its kind in the UK, and I am very grateful to Lord Robertson, General Sir Richard Barrons and Fiona Hill, our three external lead reviewers. They will make their final report to the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and me in the first half of 2025. I will report the SCR to Parliament.
Ian Roome
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that answer. I am told that all that three branches of the armed forces still have a long backlog of new recruits trying to get through medical assessments. What assurances can the Secretary of State give us that the strategic defence review will take account of that?
John Healey
I have said that the strategic defence review will place people at its heart, and we will place people at the heart of our defence plans. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; we follow 14 years of the previous Government’s recruitment targets for all forces being missed every year. We have a recruitment crisis and a retention crisis. No plan for the future can deal with that without sorting out recruitment.
Mr Francois
May I wholly concur with your tribute to the late Alex Salmond, Mr Speaker?
A critical element of the strategic defence review will be the defence of our overseas territories. The Foreign Secretary told the House last week that the deal with Mauritius over the Chagos islands has been concluded. To save us waiting until next year, will the Defence Secretary tell us today how much have we offered to pay Mauritius over 99 years for the privilege of our renting back a military facility that belongs to us in first the place? Crucially, which Department will pay that bill: the Ministry of Defence or the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office?
John Healey
The Foreign Secretary said in his statement that full details will be properly set out when the treaty comes before the House. At that point, the House can scrutinise the deal and approve it or not. Let me make it clear that we inherited a situation in which the long-standing UK-US military base was put at risk from problems to do with sovereignty and migration. We have made a historic deal that secures the UK-US base for the future, which is why my counterpart the US Defence Secretary so strongly welcomed it when we reached it.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I fully concur with your tribute to the late Alex Salmond.
In these particularly volatile times, I fully welcome the Government’s strategic defence review. I for one hope it will include serious analysis of the Indo-Pacific region, because many of us are very concerned about China’s recent launch of military drills around Taiwan. Will the Secretary of State use this opportunity to condemn those highly aggressive and intimidatory manoeuvres? What are the Government doing to work with international allies to de-escalate tensions?
John Healey
I will indeed. My hon. Friend will know that our party went into the election committed to building on commitments the previous Government made on the Indo-Pacific. I want the strategic defence review to be not just the Government’s defence review, but Britain’s defence review. We are consulting military veterans, industry, academic experts and all parties in this House. I trust that, like me, he will welcome that all-party approach, particularly as he now chairs the Select Committee, and will work with us.
Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)
The SDR is welcome and needed. The previous Conservative Government left our armed forces personnel, capabilities and funding depleted. Can the Secretary of State—[Interruption.] Hang fire. Can the Secretary of State assure me that the experts conducting our review will have an ongoing focus on our sovereign defence industrial base, and ensure that regions such as the north-east are pivotal in that?
John Healey
They will indeed. This is the way we can reinforce the UK’s security and economy. And yes, we can build, through the SDR, on the work that the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) did when he was Minister for defence procurement. Like my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), I am really angry about the state of defence after the last Government: there are billion-pound black holes in defence plans; service morale is at record lows; and Army numbers are set to fall below 70,000 next year. We will work night and day to make our forces more fit to fight, and to make Britain more secure at home and stronger abroad.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I associate all of us in my party with your comments about the late Alex Salmond.
The most important point about the SDR is that it must not be used as an excuse to delay increasing the defence budget to 2.5% of GDP. In September, in answers to written questions, the Department said that it would set out a path to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence “as soon as possible”, but last week, at the Dispatch Box, in his middle east statement, the Prime Minister said that the Government would go to 2.5% “in due course”. We all know that there is a massive difference between the two, so which is it?
John Healey
The Government are totally committed to spending 2.5% on defence to meet the increasing threat the country faces. The Prime Minister confirmed that in his first week in office, when he and I were together at the NATO summit in Washington. Of course, the last time this country spent 2.5% on defence was in 2010 under Labour, and that level was not matched in any one of the 14 years in which the hon. Gentleman’s party was in power.
James Cartlidge
That is a concern. In 2010, just to remind the House, the black hole in the defence budget was bigger than the defence budget, and we were left a note saying that there was no money left. It is significant if the wording is no longer “as soon as possible” and is now “in due course”. It is in the national interest to go to 2.5% because of the threats we face as a country. If the Secretary of State told us now that he was fighting hard with the Treasury to go to 2.5% in the Budget at the end of this month, he would have our full support. Is that what he is doing?
John Healey
Fourteen years, Mr Speaker, yet the Conservatives produced their unfunded plan for 2.5% on defence only four weeks before they called the election. It was the hon. Gentleman’s former boss, the Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, who told the truth about their record in government when he said to the House:
“we have hollowed out and underfunded”—[Official Report, 30 January 2023; Vol. 727, c. 18.]
our armed forces since 2010.
Jo Platt (Leigh and Atherton) (Lab/Co-op)
Tom Rutland (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
This is day 963 of Russia’s brutal, illegal, full-scale invasion of Ukraine. On my second day in this job, I travelled to Odesa and met President Zelensky, because Ukraine is one of my first-order priorities, just as it is for the Government. Since then, we have stepped up military aid, sped up the delivery of battlefield supplies, and confirmed that we will supply £3 billion a year in military aid to Ukraine this year, next year, and every year that it takes for Ukraine to prevail.
Jo Platt
Medics4Ukraine, a UK-based humanitarian organisation, has delivered more than £3 million-worth of medical aid and training to Ukraine, and its founders, Professor Mark Hannaford and Lucia Altatti, were recently awarded medals for their contribution to that. The Government are committed to increasing military aid; does the Secretary of State agree that medical support is a strategic component, and will he meet the founders of Medics4Ukraine to discuss how the Government can further support its lifesaving work?
John Healey
I agree with my hon. Friend, and I too pay tribute to the work of Medics4Ukraine. The UK’s Defence Medical Services is also at the forefront of Ukraine’s efforts to develop a modern military healthcare system. We have provided training for battlefield surgical teams, we have supplied medical equipment, and, as a world leader in military rehabilitation, we are supporting the development of Ukraine’s rehabilitation hospitals. A member of our defence team will be delighted to meet my hon. Friend and Medics4Ukraine to take this matter further.
Tom Rutland
It was hugely welcome to see the Prime Minister host President Zelensky and welcome the new NATO Secretary-General to London last week. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking not only to ensure that UK meets our NATO obligations, but to fundamentally strengthen UK leadership in NATO?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right: that is the first priority. It will be the centrepiece of the Government’s defence plan, and it is at the heart of the strategic defence review. When President Zelensky was in London last week, he made it clear that for Ukraine, this is a critical period in the war. The Ukrainians are fighting with huge courage, but the Russians are putting great pressure on their frontlines. Putin shows contempt for the lives of his own soldiers: the average Russian losses in September were 1,271 per day, a record high and two and a half times the level this time last year. As Zelensky promotes his victory plan, we in the UK and our allies must do all that we can to strengthen Ukraine during the coming weeks.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the democratic world cannot afford to lose this war, and does he recall that it is often said that the total defence expenditure of all Ukraine’s democratic allies far exceeds anything that Russia could possibly deploy, so Russia will inevitably lose? When will we deploy this might to gain a decisive victory for Ukraine and secure the international global order?
John Healey
The hon. Gentleman is right on both counts. First, the defence of the UK and the rest of Europe starts in Ukraine, and it is essential that we stand with Ukraine and support it for as long as it takes. Secondly, as he says—this is a matter that the Prime Minister and I discussed with the new Secretary-General of NATO, Mark Rutte, last week when he was in London—the allies together must do more to support Ukraine now, and to produce what it needs in the future. The new Secretary-General will make that one of his priorities.
Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
Thank you for your kind comments about our late right hon. friend Alex Salmond, Mr Speaker.
I thank the Secretary of State for his contribution. He will be aware of the failures of analysis at the start of the full-scale invasion. Will he consider the report by Phillips O’Brien and Eliot Cohen of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies that looked at some of those failures, so that he is informed for the next process, in terms of support for Ukraine and building support internationally?
John Healey
I will indeed. If the hon. Gentleman could be so kind as to send me the executive summary, rather than the full report, I will certainly take a look at it.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
Russia’s declared total military expenditure was around 4.7% of GDP in 2022. In 2023 it was 5.9% of GDP, and the forecast spending this year is up to around 7% of GDP. As the right hon. Gentleman knows very well, the public figures almost certainly do not tell the full story about Russian expenditure.
Sir Julian Lewis
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for putting that on the record. Does that frightening set of figures not show the scale of the problem and the weight of attack that Russia can bring to bear against Ukraine? How are we doing with the double demand on our resources—the need to both supply Ukraine with hardware and ammunition, and replenish our stocks of hardware and ammunition in order to fulfil our NATO security requirements?
John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman describes the double challenge of continuing to support Ukraine and replenishing our stockpiles, particularly of the weapons, ammunition and systems that we have gifted to Ukraine. The Government already have £1 billion-worth of contracts for replenishing UK stockpiles across a range of systems, and I can tell him that around 60% of the contracted production will be in the UK. That is the way we strengthen Britain’s security for the future, but also strengthen Britain’s economic growth and prosperity.
Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for the work he is doing to support Ukraine. It is very important that we have a united front, and that we are there for the long term to support Ukraine, as we have already heard this morning. What is his view about the determination of our allies to see this conflict through right to the end?
John Healey
I feel more confident in this job than I did when I was in my previous job. I recently attended the US-led gathering of almost 50 countries in Ramstein, where they made a long-term commitment to supporting Ukraine now and into the future. That gave me confidence that, with work, we can play a leading role in helping that coalition to hold together, and in getting NATO to do more to co-ordinate action and ensure that we get support behind Ukraine, so that it prevails and Putin loses.
Michelle Scrogham (Barrow and Furness) (Lab)
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
I regularly discuss how best to support Ukraine with international partners. Last week, I met my Ukrainian counterpart and the new Secretary-General of NATO in London. Last month at the Ukraine defence contact group in Ramstein, I met nearly 50 other Defence Ministers who came together to commit to continued support of Ukraine, both in the immediate fight and for the long term.
David Burton-Sampson
I thank my right hon. Friend for his response. Our military support needs to be part of wider diplomatic and economic support. There is growing concern about loopholes that allow Russian oil exports to a third-party country to be developed into other petroleum products and then to be imported into the UK and other countries that have imposed sanctions on Russia. Can the Secretary of State tell me what work he and his counterparts are doing to crack down on that loophole and to stop inadvertently funding the Russian war effort?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right: alongside military aid, economic support and diplomatic help are required to support Ukraine and put pressure on Russia. The UK has banned the import of Russian oil and oil products, in line with the steps taken by the US and the European Union. Importers must now include proof of origin and country of last dispatch as a way of tightening up on the loopholes, and we will not hesitate to take further action if Russian revenues, which fuel the war machine, are not closed off by the sanctions.
Cat Eccles
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. On a recent visit to Ukraine, I visited the Chernihiv oblast, which is a former Russian red line. There, we saw a large military effort by communities and local government. Given that large segments of the military in Ukraine are made up differently from our own Ministry of Defence, what discussions is the Secretary of State having to ensure funds are going into community and local government efforts?
John Healey
Like my hon. Friend, I have been privileged to see some of those community efforts and local mayor- led initiatives when I have visited Ukraine. Part of the work that the Government have put in place since 2022— I am proud of the UK’s leadership on Ukraine over that period—has been to commit £38 million to the Ukraine good governance fund. That has allowed communities to draw down some of that funding and the Ukrainian Government to take steps to deal with some of the corruption that has been endemic since the Soviet period. That is an extraordinary feat, given that they are fighting a war and dealing with corruption in their system at the same time.
Matt Western
With winter looming, defending the home front in Ukraine is paramount. However, Russia has intensified its attacks on energy infrastructure in Ukraine, including substations, where it has deployed cluster munitions. That is particularly alarming. Given those developments, what additional support can the UK give through de-mining equipment to get rid of those munitions from the ground?
John Healey
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is vital to remember that these are not military targets; they are civilian targets. These are Russian actions that breach international humanitarian law and we must never lose sight of the moral outrage about what the Russians are doing. Clearly, with the onset of winter, there is a vital imperative for Britain and other countries to step up support as we can. Since the election, we have been offering specialist advice on how to protect energy generation and transmission sites, and the Foreign Secretary, when he was in Ukraine last month, committed another £20 million to support emergency energy needs.
John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)
In the shell crisis of 1915, the Government of the day and industry came together to support our troops on the western front. We are hearing much about new contracts being placed for things such as ordnance, which is critical to the defence of Ukraine and to replenishing our own stocks. Does the Secretary of State share my concern that senior figures in the Scottish Government seem reluctant to put money into those defence companies, except for civilian use? Can he explain how Scotland can play its full part since it provides so much of the ordnance, with everything from Storm Shadow to Type 26 destroyers built in Scotland?
John Healey
The hon. Member and I share common cause in recognising the role that Scottish workers and Scottish industry play not just in the security of our own United Kingdom, but through the contribution we make to supporting Ukraine in its fight. I have been proud to visit workers in some of the Scottish sites. Our defence industrial strategy, as we develop it in the months ahead, will reinforce the essential role that Scotland plays in our security, and in the UK economy.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
Last week, President Zelensky of Ukraine met with German Chancellor Scholz. Zelensky said:
“For us, it is very important that aid does not decrease next year.”
It is welcome that the Foreign Secretary will meet with EU27 Ministers later to discuss the war in Ukraine, but will the EU27 plus the UK be in a position to assure Zelensky that military aid to Ukraine will not decrease next year, regardless of what happens in the presidential election next month?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Defence Secretary for that response. When I look at Israel’s capacity to defend its citizens and its property with its dome system, it is clear to me that Ukraine needs something similar. Has he had an opportunity to talk to his NATO compatriots, and with the USA in particular, to see whether it is possible to offer Ukraine some of the protection that Israel has?
John Healey
The hon. Gentleman is right that one of the priorities that the Ukrainian President and Defence Minister have constantly stressed to us and other allies is the need for stronger air defence. It is one of the reasons we have now let a contract for short-range air defence missiles: the lightweight multirole missiles. We will produce 650 of those—some of them delivered into Ukraine before the end of the year—and we look to go further in 2025.
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
Chris McDonald (Stockton North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
The middle east continues to be a major focus for the Government. Last week, we passed one year since the horrifying Hamas terror attack on Israel. We marked the memory of those who were murdered, we grieved with the families of the hostages who are still held, and we share the agony of so many Palestinians over the civilians who have been killed since.
We are working on an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. In Lebanon we are working to reduce the risk of further escalation, and a ceasefire and the UN plan for a buffer zone are vital to that. In addition, last week I visited British troops in Cyprus, where contingency plans are in place to deal with further developments. On behalf of the House, I thank them for their professionalism and their dedication.
Chris McDonald
Can my right hon. Friend outline what steps the Government are taking to ensure that every veteran who has bravely served this country has access to safe and secure housing, so that they never face the injustice of homelessness?
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
Thousands of children of armed forces personnel face unaffordable increases to their school fees because of this Government’s ideological decision to charge VAT on education. That could have the perverse effect of forcing experienced personnel to quit the service of their country just when we should be seeking to maximise retention. Will the Minister therefore confirm that children of armed forces families will be exempt from the new VAT rise, and furthermore that that exemption will apply from January when the new tax kicks in?
John Healey
We recognise the extraordinary strain that is sometimes placed on the family of armed forces personnel, including their children. That is why the continuity of education allowance—an important part of the package that reflects and respects the service—is in place, and it is why we are looking very closely at options to ensure we continue with that.
Emma Foody (Cramlington and Killingworth) (Lab/Co-op)
Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)
This year, British military jets have been involved in several operations in the middle east without consulting Parliament. Allowing the Commons to debate military action wherever feasible is essential to ensuring public accountability. Will the Secretary of State set out the Government’s stance on the use of a parliamentary vote to approve military action?
John Healey
It is a convention that if military action is authorised by the Prime Minister, that is reported as soon as possible to this House. It is important to any Prime Minister and any Government that if they commit UK forces to military action, they will want the support of all sides of this House.
Ruth Jones (Newport West and Islwyn) (Lab)
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) (Ind)
John Healey
We have made decisions on the suspension of arms sales to Israel, and we have set out the details of those to the House. We are working, as well as calling, for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza so that all hostages can get out, all the aid needed by the Palestinians can be flooded in, and the first steps can be taken towards the political solution that is ultimately the best guarantor of two states and a permanent peace in the area.
Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West) (Lab)
Our first duty as a Government is to keep the nation safe and to protect our citizens, particularly when we are going through a period of global strife and instability, with war in Europe and conflict in the middle east. Although I am aware of our unshakeable commitment to NATO, will my right hon. Friend please reassure the House that, when it comes to defence, our relationship with our European allies has not been adversely affected by Brexit?
John Healey
It is the previous Government who have to answer for the impact of Brexit. As a new Government, we have set out to rebuild relations with key European allies, especially on defence and security. Although NATO remains the cornerstone of our European security, there is an important role for the European Union. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has started discussions with the European Union, as indeed has the Prime Minister, on how we can achieve a greater level of co-operation between the EU and the UK.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
John Healey
We will indeed work with the Home Office on the future of RAF Scampton.
Lillian Jones (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
I concur with the comments regarding the late Alex Salmond.
My constituent Hannah was refused entry into the RAF due to a prior anterior cruciate ligament injury, which is now fully repaired, recovered and rehabilitated. Will my hon. Friend review his Department’s policy on the rehabilitation both of armed forces personnel and applicants graded as medically unfit?
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
John Healey
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman heard me; I said earlier that the Foreign Secretary had said the other day that the detail of the costs and the agreement will be set out properly before this House when it comes to consider and debate the treaty.
Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)
Devonport dockyard in Plymouth is where the UK repairs and maintains our submarine fleet. In future, there will be even more submarines, and we will need even more infrastructure for that upkeep, so what conversations is the Secretary of State having with the Secretaries of State responsible for housing and transport to deliver that infrastructure to support our increased submarine programme?
John Healey
I paid tribute to the previous Government when they put in place Team Barrow, in recognition of the fact that the future of its shipyard and submarine building programme was not just a matter for the Ministry of Defence. I would say the same thing to my hon. Friend, and I would be pleased to meet him to discuss it further.
Sir Alec Shelbrooke (Wetherby and Easingwold) (Con)
In light of the latest Hezbollah attack on Israel, will the Secretary of State assure the House that we will continue to supply defensive equipment to Israel to help it defend itself against Iranian proxies?
John Healey
We have an unshakeable commitment to the right of Israel to defend itself and we have demonstrated in the past a willingness to stand with Israel, particularly when it has been under direct under attack from Iran.
Mr Speaker
We now come to points of order before the urgent questions. I will deal with them in a slightly different way from normal. I call the leader of the Scottish National party.