Military Credit Union

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I had anticipated that a large number of other Members would be here to speak about this issue, because of its importance. I congratulate the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) on bringing the matter to the House. The Minister is in his place and has heard a lot of what he said, and I will be adding to those comments. Other Members might have contributions to make and the shadow Minister will be making a valuable contribution, too.

I am very pleased to come along today and give my wholehearted support to the hon. Gentleman for bringing the issue to the Chamber for our consideration. We are aware of such issues not only as elected representatives, but because of previous service. I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Territorial Army for 11-and-a-half years in the Royal Artillery: in the UDR, in a terrorism role—or an anti-terrorism role, I should say—and in the Royal Artillery in a role that had a more global and European impact. That is where my interest in the issue comes from.

I represent Strangford, which is renowned for service in Her Majesty’s armed forces. The largest town in my constituency, Newtownards, is to host the Armed Forces day in Northern Ireland this year. I have no doubt that the streets will be thronged to capacity with people coming along to express the high esteem in which they hold service personnel and veterans. As I meet each of those veterans and personnel, I will do so with the knowledge that I support them in every way that I can. This debate is a way of doing just that. It reflects some constituency issues that I have had over the past four years as a Member of Parliament, and before that, as a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I seek to help the personnel’s families at home while they are serving and when they return home from their service. Some return home with not only physical and emotional but financial issues, as the hon. Gentleman highlighted.

What the hon. Gentleman presented was about support for service personnel and their families. I completely agree that the fluctuation of pay of those serving due to the different rates depending on where they are serving means that some payday lenders can take advantage of our armed forces personnel. Serving personnel get an allowance on active duty, but some find it hard to get by without the top-up cash. Sometimes, there is a change of financial circumstances. Will the Minister indicate what help is given to service personnel when it comes to managing money and their wages better? I believe that there is some, but sometimes it takes more than a bit of paper; it takes a one-to-one, and if that is possible, has it been done?

A regular soldier’s wage is £17,767, and when they become used to the uplift in cash, it takes time to go back to a smaller budget. I am privileged to be in the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which has given me a chance to visit army camps. Catterick is one that sticks in my mind because it offers accommodation to soldiers who are single and have no families or dependants. The officers told me that many of those young men in uniform perhaps have a level of cash that they did not have before, and they very quickly spend it and frequently run into debt. Will the Minister say what help is given directly to service personnel to ensure that they manage their money and wages much better?

I have spoken in this place numerous times about the difficulties with payday loans, as have others. We are all aware of the story in the press in the past week or two about the lady who borrowed £500 and suddenly found, before it was all finished, that she owed £120,000. That is an extreme example, but none the less, it indicates the serious problems that people can have when they get into borrowing from payday companies. I have spoken about the number of people who come into my office seeking help to get themselves back on an even keel due to the high interest of these loans. We are fortunate to have debt advice organisations such as Citizens Advice, Debt Action, and Christians Against Poverty, just to think of three in my constituency that deliver specific help to those who need it most. Increasing numbers of ex-Army personnel come with their families to seek help for their circumstances. They are real issues and they show why today’s debate is so important.

Many people are seeking to get themselves back on an even keel, due to the high interest of the loans, as they try to manage their money in relation to their wives and children and to their new circumstances perhaps of not being in the Army. It is a vicious circle that is so difficult to get out of. Citizens Advice has said that it is dealing with an increasing number of cases where military personnel and their families had run into financial problems after taking out high-cost payday loans. Research by the Royal British Legion has found that about a third of veterans experience financial difficulties, including almost half of those who are recently injured. That is, again, a pointer to how important the issue is. We all greatly respect those soldiers who serve and those who come back injured, either emotionally or physically. It is a terrible tragedy when half of the recently injured and a third of veterans, as the Royal British Legion found, experience financial difficulties and need help, which lead many of them into very high levels of debt.

I place on record my thanks to the organisations that work in my area. Obviously, I thank the Royal British Legion first, but I also thank the Army Benevolent Fund, to which the hon. Member for Harrow West referred, and the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association, which does great work with serving personnel or ex-personnel and their families. I hold a coffee morning once a year for SSAFA—it is basically coffee, tea and sticky buns—and last year we were very pleased because people from the town gave £4,500. That immense contribution was an example of the good that people can do and of their generosity. We never fail to be overwhelmed by people’s generosity. That contribution was an indication of the good that the people of Newtownards and district can do.

Last year, the Royal British Legion’s benefits and money advice service—this information is from the Royal British Legion—helped 11,000 Army personnel. That was in its second year. It was an increase of 8,600 on its first year. That clearly shows the magnitude of this issue and the need to respond. It is clear that there is an issue. It is equally clear that we have a role to play in providing the solution. The proposals were outlined by the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that the Minister, in his response, will be able to give us some indication of the importance of that and how he will address the issue.

At home, I always encourage people to use their local credit union, which allows money to be borrowed only when money has been saved. That has helped many people to get loans at an affordable rate of interest. The fact that the American military run a successful version in Navy Federal shows that such a service would be of use to our personnel.

I want to touch on the options or solutions that are available. Like other MPs, I would say that when people come to see me with their problems, it is about solutions. It is not about the problem; it is about how we make the situation better, how we can help the people. I believe that we have a solution here today if the Minister is minded to give us the response that we seek.

Navy Federal is the largest credit union in America, with more than 4 million members. It has branches on every military base in the country. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) spoke to me last year when he had the chance to be in America and speak to some navy personnel. He was aware of the good work that they do. Army personnel and navy personnel were depending on payday loans and creditors, so Navy Federal moved in and ensured that there was a branch on every military base in the country. The payday loaners used to target the military bases to hook American sailors and soldiers with their high-cost financial services. However, legislation and the low-cost financial products that credit unions offer have led to the Navy Federal credit union having branches on every military base in the United States of America and offering a very direct and personal service to its members. It is greatly utilised by service personnel.

According to the Library debate pack, a meeting took place of the all-party group on credit unions last October. The Minister for the Armed Forces used that meeting to express the Government’s interest in exploring the idea of a service personnel credit union further, so perhaps the Minister today could tell us where we have advanced since October, whether we are any closer to having this type of scheme in place—I hope that we are—and, if not, whether we have a programme that will lead to that happening. Like the hon. Member for Harrow West and other hon. Members present, I genuinely believe that this proposal could be the catalyst for a scheme that can change things round and help our soldiers, sailors and Air Force personnel to manage their money better.

Abbie Shelton, policy and communications manager at ABCUL, said:

“Payroll deduction is an easy and convenient way for employees to get a savings habit and access affordable credit and we welcome any support for new partnerships which will help more people access credit unions in this way.”

I will not express a preference for any one building society. None the less, getting into the habit of saving is a good thing to do. If we do get into the habit of saving early and start to save regularly, that becomes a discipline in itself. Again, perhaps the Minister could comment on this issue in his response. The hon. Member for Harrow West focused greatly on payroll deduction, and I think that it is a tremendous idea, because it enables people to save directly. It is important that we all try to manage our money as best we can.

[Ian Paisley]

Does my hon. Friend agree that if such a scheme were introduced, the Government could make a forward calculation as to how much money could reasonably be expected and therefore underwrite the establishment of a military credit union for a period of five to 10 years to allow it to get established and thereby really give it the support that it needs to get off the ground?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that very constructive intervention. Yes, I do believe that what he describes could be done. Again, perhaps the Minister can give us some idea of how he sees that particular scheme working. If we have a prediction, if we have an idea of what we will have coming in over five to 10 years, we can start such a scheme. When I visited Catterick camp in September two years ago, that was one of the things that the officers told me they wanted to see happening. I fed that back to the MOD in questions and I would like to know whether it has been activated and where it is going.

The example of the Navy Federal credit union in the United States is powerful. It shows what can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way, or, in this case, where there is a will, there must be a way. It can be delivered. We have a duty of care to our service personnel to help to support their families and to ensure that their sacrifices in service are acknowledged at home, and this is one way of doing just that. I wholeheartedly support the proposal and offer my help in any way possible to see this legislation being made in the House. It is critical, it is important and it is needed urgently. Everyone here is of that opinion. I know that the pledge that I have made is something that the rest of my party, the Democratic Unionist party, at Westminster will also support.

We have talked about the issue. Now it is time for action to be taken, for our serving personnel to become saving personnel and for them and veterans to see yet another tangible sign of our appreciation of and support for those who put their safety, mental health and lives on the line in service to the Queen and this tremendous country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

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[Mr Dunne]

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman seems to want to bring the debate to a premature conclusion. We have plenty of time left, and I am sure, given that he called the debate, he would like to use as much of it as possible. He already asked that question in his remarks, and I hope to deal comprehensively with all his questions before the debate finishes.

I referred to the website because of the impression that may advertently or inadvertently be given that websites directed at the armed forces carry some endorsement from the armed forces. That could not be further from the truth, but it highlights the risks for the Ministry and the service branches in any involvement in the provision of financial products, should personnel or their families get the impression that the military was endorsing a particular product. Such a financial product would carry the same kinds of risk as any other regulated entity, and we take that seriously.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Member for Harrow West and I cited the Navy Federal credit union in the United States as an example of something that is clearly personnel-oriented but is acceptable and does what it should: it does what it says on the tin, as we say. That is an example of what could be done.

[Mr Dunne]

I completely accept that there are examples elsewhere, as the hon. Member for Harrow West said—not just in the United States but also in Australia—of credit unions receiving support from the armed forces. I shall come on to that but I was just highlighting the level of associated risk.

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[Mr Dunne]

I am not in a position to commit the Ministry’s budget here and now. What I am willing to do, as I think I have already indicated, is to offer further support to explore the possibility of establishing a military credit union. If an existing credit union felt that it had the resources and the experience to bring to bear, that would be a very positive development; equally, if an existing service charity felt that this was an area that it wished to explore, that would also be very welcome. I am not closing the door to providing assistance for a feasibility study, but I will not commit at this point to conduct one without knowing to whom I might be making such a commitment.

[Jim Shannon]

Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Harrow West, I have a question. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim and I suggested that, by making payroll deductions during a five or 10-year period, we could build in the moneys that would be needed, while being ever mindful that it is a credit union that is being established. Would such a scheme be part of the feasibility study?

[Mr Dunne]

The subject of payroll deduction has been raised by a number of hon. Members. We make payroll deductions in certain areas. Insurance services were specifically mentioned as possible services for a credit union to provide and it was said that a payroll deduction might be a way of helping to fund insurance premiums. We already make such deductions for armed forces personnel. We have a payroll deduction scheme that is financially supported by the Government, over and above our merely facilitating contribution payments. That is to ensure that life insurance is available to armed forces personnel who are on operations, irrespective of their role. That is a specific product that is funded through payroll deduction.

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[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman referred to Plane Saver before, and I am not aware that it has directly approached us. We have clearly had an approach from ABCUL. It participated in meetings earlier this year and wrote again last week, perhaps prompted by sight of this debate. I am confident that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who has responsibility for defence personnel, welfare and veterans, would be willing to meet the hon. Gentleman and ABCUL. If he wanted to bring Plane Saver along, it would be welcome, too.

The hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions about the promotion of credit unions within military publications. Were the credit union to be established with support from the military, it would be more than welcome to take space in the military publications. I cannot, however, commit to the charging basis on which that space would be available; that would be a matter for the normal procedures for each publication. He asked whether we could institute a ban on payday lenders advertising in military publications. This Government are not in the business of prohibiting freedom of speech. Payday lenders might be unethical, but they are not unlawful, so we should not ban their adverts. We should, however, look to support the credit union going forward.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked whether we could underwrite a scheme, but I have to disappoint him. The Ministry of Defence budget might appear to be large, but it appears from the inside to be somewhat constrained. We have to devote our budget to our front-line duty, which is protecting the nation. We are willing to provide opportunities to access military publications and that kind of thing, but we are not in a position to underwrite a financial offering to our personnel.

[Jim Shannon]

I also asked the Minister about giving advice to soldiers and serving personnel on how best to manage their money. I said that, often, those who did not have the level of income they currently have found managing their money overawing. Has offering that advice been considered?

[Mr Dunne]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman raised the role of the Money Advice Service, which we established two years ago, and I am grateful that he gave it a positive endorsement. The advice is proving effective and, as the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire said, the number of people taking advantage of the service in its first two years demonstrates that there was a need for it. We think that it is being delivered in the right way. I also thank the hon. Member for Strangford for the advert he gave to Armed Forces day this summer and the celebrations that will take place in his constituency. I wish them well.[Official Report, 28 April 2014, Vol. 579, c. 7MC.]

I conclude by confirming that the Government support the notion of establishing a military credit union. We are in active discussions with the credit union trade body and the service charities. I have indicated that we are willing to commit the Minister to meet them again, with the hon. Member for Harrow West, who takes such an interest in this matter. In closing, I encourage all parties with an interest in developing this kind of financial service for our armed forces personnel to get together, to pool resources and to try to find a way of making it happen.

Defence in Scotland after 2014

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 18th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That was not a day of celebration. There are genuine ties between the various yards. They share a common union body—the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions—and they campaign together to protect and sustain this crucial industry, which is in our national interest.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Harland and Wolff in Belfast does not have the capacity to produce ships, as it has diversified into the oilfield sector, but there is capability there. We very much want to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and I want to place on record that we pledge our yards to be used in the service of the Royal Navy.

[Thomas Docherty]

There is obviously no shortage of firms to carry out this work. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) is in the Chamber. He was gracious enough to take me along to see a company in his constituency, Vector Aerospace. He has been a real champion of that company. It is inconceivable to me that the British Army and the Royal Air Force would continue to send Chinook parts to Perthshire for repair, if Perthshire were to be in a foreign country, when they could have the work done elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I say again that it is disappointing that not one SNP Member is here tonight. Perhaps that is because they are fearties, but they should be here to make their case, and to explain to the people of Scotland what the implications of independence are for defence and the defence industries.

I have said quite a lot about manufacturing, so I shall turn now to the so-called Scottish defence force. Over the past 12 to 18 months we have seen the SNP changing its position and rewriting documents. It went from being outside NATO and completely opposed to it, to being a full member, without even having to apply. It then changed its policy again. When the Minister for Transport and Veterans, Keith Brown, appeared before the Defence Committee last July, he admitted that an independent Scotland would have to apply for NATO membership. That was then flatly contradicted by Alex Salmond, who continues to put around the lie that somehow Scotland would automatically be a member of NATO. It would be helpful if the Minister could tell us what he thinks about those contradictory positions. SNP Ministers say one thing when they are under oath in front of a Select Committee and then say something completely different when they are safely back in Scotland and they think that no one is paying attention to them.

There are some serious concerns about the ability of Scotland to defend itself given the SNP’s plans. It was quite clear from when the Defence Committee took evidence that, in order to maintain simple air defences, Scotland would need, according to Air Marshal Iain McNicol, the equivalent of two squadrons of Typhoon aircraft. The SNP now claims that it would inherit a number of aircraft from the Royal Air Force. That is based on the argument, with which I have a huge amount of sympathy, that that is what happened in Czechoslovakia when it broke up. A proportion of aircraft went to the Czech Republic and a proportion to the Slovak Republic. Even under the most generous of assumptions—the Ministry of Defence has done the figures and they were used by the Secretary of State last year—Scotland would have only eight Typhoon aircraft. It would have to spend more than £1 billion purchasing additional Typhoons.

The same is true with regard to the Royal Navy. Again, the SNP is making contradictory statements. It claims in its party policy that it wants a squadron of submarines, yet in its White Paper, there was no mention of submarines. Perhaps like many other SNP policies, that has sunk beneath the waves.

The SNP has also claimed that it would need 15,000 regular personnel. Although the Minister and I may disagree on aspects of the strategic defence and security review, I am sure that we agree on the correct way of approaching a defence policy. One needs to set out strategic aims and threats, what posture needs to be adopted and what personnel and equipment numbers are needed to effect that posture. Then one needs to put together the money. What the SNP has done is to pick a random figure of 15,000. At no point has it provided any coherent explanation as to what it is, nor has it explained from where the troops would be recruited. Where would these air men and women, sailors and soldiers come from? The SNP claims that it is entitled to those members of the armed forces who have some sort of Scottish qualification.

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[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate and I thank the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) for introducing it. He made his case very clearly. When I became aware of the debate, I sought the permission of the hon. Gentleman and of the Minister to contribute.

There can be few Members in the Chamber who do not know where I stand on independence. My designation says it all: I am a Democratic Unionist, with a greater emphasis on the Unionist as I am proud to be a member of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Together we are stronger and better as a nation. The four nations come together as one. I always think of that when I walk into Central Lobby and see the four flags: we are all together, four flags and four nations as one, in Central Lobby in the centre of the greatest democratic process in the world, here at Westminster. It gives me great pride to walk through the door and have the opportunity and privilege of seeing that.

I am very fond of my Scottish colleagues. They know that, and I agree with them on many issues. I am disappointed that they are not in the Chamber tonight. I wish they were, as I would be keen to hear their views.

My ideal applies also to the Scottish question and the reason is clear: the Union is in all our best interests, including that of the Scots. Many issues have been flagged up that emphasise the difficulties with independence, and the one that is of great concern to me is defence, and in this debate we are considering defence in Scotland after 2014. Although I support the devolution of most matters and believe that the regional Assemblies should have power, I have always held that decisions on matters of national security should be taken at the national level. That is why they are taken in Westminster.

The second world war showed the difficulties of a nation sharing a land border with a nation that is not on its side. We in Northern Ireland know that better than any others. The actions of the Republic of Ireland in its neutral stance to Germany were not helpful to those suffering the Belfast blitz bombings. The strength of mainland Great Britain lies in the fact that it is an island, united in core principles and values, and defence is a major part of that.

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Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Gyimah.)

[Jim Shannon]

The first time I was interrupted in that way I thought that my chance to speak was over, but now I know the process and I am pleased to be able to continue my contribution.

I do not always agree with Government reports or policies. I agree with many things, but not with everything, as right hon. and hon. Members will be aware. But I read with great interest the report “Scotland analysis: Defence”. It states:

“In the event of a vote in favour of leaving the UK, in the eyes of the world and in law, Scotland would become an entirely new state. If Scotland were to become independent, therefore, it would leave the UK and its existing arrangements, and would need to establish its own defence arrangements as part of forming a new state.”

That is a frightening aspect, not simply for the rest of the United Kingdom but for Scotland itself.

As I said earlier, I am fond of the Scottish nationalists. I have affection for them and we agree on many things. We disagree intensely on their position on independence. I am always reminded of the film “Braveheart” in which that well-known Scotsman Mel Gibson plays the lead role. Let us be honest: if it were as bad as it was then, with the English stealing their land, burning down their houses and abusing their ladies, I would be the first to jump to their support. But it is not. We are in a different situation. We are in a democratic process, and we as nations together in the United Kingdom are better for being united.

With that mind, I will read a further section of the report. Hon. Members will forgive me if they are fully aware of the information, but it is important to repeat it so that the people of Scotland can be fully aware of all the real issues and not get caught up in the dream that independence will mean that they can pick and choose how involved they will be in defence, in the currency or in any other matter. There seems to be that perception. The hon. Gentleman made it clear. The Scottish nationalists are not here to put forward their case and we wonder why. Is it because they are not sure what their case is? Is it because they do not want to deal with the head over heart issues, of which this is one?

The report states:

“Scotland is home to major bases for critical UK military capabilities and other essential facilities, including for military training and testing. As at 1 July 2013, there were 11,100 Regular Armed Forces (7.5% of the UK total) and 4,000 MOD civilian personnel (7.6% of the UK total), from across the UK and beyond, at around 50 MOD sites throughout Scotland, as well as an estimated 2,200 trained Volunteer Reserves (10.3% of the UK total). There are also an estimated 11,500 Cadets (85% of the UK total).”

I am honoured to speak in this House on behalf of the Northern Ireland cadets. It continues:

“Although defence reforms mean that the overall number of Regular Armed forces personnel across the UK is decreasing, by 2020 the number in Scotland is set to increase to 12,500 (8.8% of the UK total).” —

a rise of 1.3%.

“And as part of the UK Government’s plans to increase the size of the Reserve Forces, by 2018 there will be an estimated 4,250 trained volunteer Reserves in Scotland (about 12% of the UK total).”

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I am most grateful to my colleague from the neighbouring constituency of Strangford for taking an intervention. The hon. Gentleman will know that a number of companies from Northern Ireland provide essential maintenance for the MOD in Scotland. Has he had an opportunity to speak to any of the senior management of those companies to ascertain their views about the proposed ridiculous decision to become independent in Scotland?

[Jim Shannon]

I have not had that opportunity personally, but I have through third parties. I know that my friend and colleague, the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), has businesses in her constituency that have clearly told her and their staff that Scottish independence would have a detrimental impact on them, and some of my constituents work for those companies as well.

The report continues:

“On current UK Government plans, by 2020 Scotland will be home to one of three Royal Navy main bases, including all its submarines, one of the British Army’s seven Adaptable Force Brigades and one of three Royal Air Force fast jet main operating bases.”

That is the role Scotland can play in defending the whole of the United Kingdom— Northern Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland: all of us.

[Mr McKenzie]

I know that the hon. Gentleman spoke in the recent debate on cyber-security. We know about the many hard, physical aspects of defence, but cyber-security is a growing area of concern that is consuming more and more time, resources and money. He spoke at great length and with great knowledge about the subject, so I wonder whether he would care to devote a part of his speech to it today and underline the cost implications and the implications for a country that would not have the same level of defence in its interactions in the cyber world.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Cyber-security is clearly an important area. Many Members contributed to that debate, and I am no more knowledgeable on the matter that anyone else, but I understand its importance and the potential costs. There is a bigger picture, and I feel that the Scottish National party has unfortunately not taken it into consideration in its quest for the referendum. It must do so very honestly and very quickly.

The defence issue for Scotland is massive. To me, it fully underlines the need for the Union. However, personnel issues must be considered. On a more personal level, the Army base at Ballykinler, just outside my constituency, is due to lose some of its regiment, with the knock-on effect that 300 jobs in the area are at stake. However, the Ministry of Defence has assured me that the base will remain open. That follows lobbying by Members of Parliament and the local council. If that was to be replicated across Scotland, how many jobs would be lost? If Northern Ireland was to become independent—thank the Lord it will not, so long as the people of Northern Ireland have the decision to stay in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—those jobs would be lost.

My parliamentary aide has a friend who is based in Scotland in the Scots Guards, along with her husband. She has already said that, should Scotland become independent, she will transfer to England, because she feels that there would not be the capacity for job security and that the uncertainly for her and her husband would be too great. That is what my constituents are telling me. That will be replicated many times if Scotland becomes independent. There is the potential that it will lose many good men and women who are seasoned officers. How much will that weaken its defences?

In conclusion, we are very fortunate to have the contribution that our Scots brothers and sisters make in all the services—the Air Force, the Royal Navy and the British Army. We are very pleased to have them as comrades in arms. What is very clear, however, is this: we are better together, safer together and stronger together, and together we must remain.

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[Dr Murrison]

I have given up speculating about the SNP, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is somewhat odd, even in the simple 19 pages on defence in this remarkable 649-page document, that Rosyth should feature so poorly. That is truly remarkable and I think the hon. Gentleman’s constituents are entitled to draw their own conclusions from that.

I believe that Scotland should continue to benefit from every pound spent on UK defence. We of course have one of the largest budgets in the world at £33.5 billion this year. The £2.5 billion grudgingly conceded by Mr Salmond for both defence and security simply pales in comparison.

As part of the UK, Scotland will continue, as it has done for 300 years, to play an integral part in all aspects of UK defence. As UK citizens, Scots will continue to be employed in world-class armed forces, and Scotland will continue to be home to critical high-end military capabilities across the defence piece. In fact, on our current plans, the defence presence in Scotland will increase over the coming years. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has pointed out, by 2020 Scotland will be home to one of the Royal Navy’s main bases, including all of its submarines—I will come back to submarines in a moment—as well as to one of the British Army’s seven adaptable force brigades and one of three Royal Air Force fast-jet main operating bases.

At a time when the overall number of our regular armed forces personnel is necessarily decreasing, the number based in Scotland is set to increase from about 11,000 now to 12,500 by 2020, which is about 8.8% of the UK total.

UK defence generates economic benefits for communities throughout Scotland though jobs, contracts and support services. Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde is the biggest employment site in Scotland, with about 6,700 military and civilian jobs, increasing to 8,200 by 2022.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife has eloquently described the importance of defence to the east coast, and every constituency in Scotland has people whose livelihoods depend on defence and that are subsequently at risk.

Scotland, as part of the UK, will continue to benefit from a strong, established global network of international relationships and alliances that would be unavailable to an independent Scotland, at best for years and possibly indefinitely.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for his strong and robust response to the debate. During her intervention on me earlier, the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) outlined the importance of defence contracts to many businesses in Northern Ireland as well. The ripples caused by independence would affect not just Scotland, but Northern Ireland.

[Dr Murrison]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, who has anticipated my next point, which is that the UK has geopolitical influence that few states of a similar size can match. That influence would be put at risk in a dramatic way were this country to be split in two. Together, undoubtedly we punch well above our weight. Apart, we would certainly be diminished, with substantial geopolitical consequences that would reach far beyond these shores. It is interesting that many of our partners are watching this situation very closely indeed—even more closely, I have to say, than many of our own citizens on these islands—because they fully understand what is at stake in September.

Because we are together, the UK is a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, a leading member of the European Union and a founder member of NATO. It is central to the “Five Eyes” community. The benefits for Scotland’s defence industry as part of the UK are especially important to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, as he has pointed out.

The scale of our defence spending is a key factor in sustaining those indigenous defence industries. The Ministry of Defence spent more than £20 billion with UK industry in 2011-12. Over the 10 years from 2012-13, it will spend almost £160 billion on new equipment and data systems. That spending sustains a substantial industrial footprint in Scotland, from complex warships to the latest high-tech innovations in aerospace engineering, defence electronics and electro-optical systems in companies based throughout the country, employing thousands of people in high-skill and relatively high-salary positions. Many of our prime contractors—Babcock, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Selex ES, Thales, Raytheon and QinetiQ—have sites in Scotland. The defence sector in Scotland employs about 12,600 people, with 4,000 jobs in Scottish shipyards being directly linked to the aircraft carrier programme alone.

The SNP may be able to marshal arguments in support of independence, beyond its cynical offer of free child care, but even its ex-parliamentary candidate Colonel Stuart Crawford asked rhetorically whether the Scottish Government White Paper would provide at least some answers. In the event, we were left little the wiser from its 649 pages.

John Swinney’s secret admission that his defence budget would be less than the £2.5 billion asserted by the SNP is interesting, but let us generously assume that that is the figure. That would be for both defence and security, presumably including intelligence and cyber, but it is only about 7% of the UK’s combined budgets for defence, intelligence and cyber, and it is significantly less than Scotland’s population share—if we are counting, which we are not.

It is not clear what level of security and protection the £2.5 billion would provide, but it would for sure be less than Denmark’s or Norway’s. The SNP plans are simply unaffordable, and I can only conclude that it would end up with its starting point of 7,500 soldiers. So much for restoring all Scotland’s historic regiments. Confounding Colonel Crawford’s hopes, the White Paper seems to offer more questions than answers.

It is clear that an independent Scottish state would have to wait in line for membership of the international organisations that the Scottish Government have hitherto believed Scotland would automatically join. If it wished to be a member of NATO, all 28 member states would need to agree unanimously to its accession, which is hardly likely, given the Scottish Government’s attitude to the strategic nuclear deterrent that lies at the very heart of the alliance’s strategic concept. It seems unlikely that the “Five Eyes” community would really bang on the door of a newly independent Scotland.

Companies based in an independent Scottish state would no longer be eligible for contracts that the UK chose to place, or to compete domestically, for national security reasons under article 346. All our complex warships are designed and built within the UK for reasons of national security, so as a foreign country, Scotland would no longer be eligible. Where companies in Scotland could continue to compete, they would be bidding in a cut-throat international market dominated by major economic powers. The sustainability of the defence industry in Scotland and the thousands of jobs that depend on it would therefore be cause for considerable concern.

The Scottish Government have shown a little bit of leg in the 19 pages on defence in their 649-page doorstopper, but there is no link between their defence wish list and the budget proposed to cover it. Their £2.5 billion—remember that that is our generous assessment—would be nowhere near enough to pay for their stated requirement and, like the hon. Gentleman, who is eagle-eyed, I notice that the figure does not cover their 2012 plans for conventional submarines, which were not mentioned in the following year’s White Paper. The Scottish Government say that they would have expensive platforms, such as Type 26 frigates, Typhoon jets and maritime patrol aircraft, and presumably the wherewithal to process and act on the data that MPAs generate, and would continue to operate all current major military bases, but the sums do not add up.

That is not to suggest that an independent Scotland could not build a defence force. Of course it could. However, what the Scottish Government are saying about what that force would be like is simply not credible—it is incredible. Whatever defence force an independent Scotland could develop, it would not come close to replicating the level of defence and security that comes from being part of the UK, which defends the country not on a regional basis, but as a whole.

Defence and Cyber-security

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Our society relies more and more on cyberspace in activities ranging from internet shopping to internet banking. More and more of our lives, and consequently our details, are online, and our constituents are affected by that every day. It is only right that the Ministry of Defence has a cyber-system that provides security, can be updated, and can be foolproof.

The national cyber-security programme puts in place £650 million over four years to transform the United Kingdom’s cyber-security capability, of which the MOD’s defence cyber-security programme is part. The cyber-threat has a capacity for almost unimaginable speed, which could have serious consequences for the nation’s security. The nation therefore needs to do what it has not yet fully done, and provide the mechanisms, people, education, skills, thinking and policies that will make it possible to take into account both the opportunities and the vulnerabilities that cyber presents. If a reason for action were ever needed, that would be a very clear reason.

All of us, both inside and outside the House, will have watched films on television in which Governments are brought down by computer networks. I remember thinking that that was science fiction and that it could never actually happen, but all of a sudden, in our own lives as elected representatives dealing with constituents, we have found ourselves relating to some of the issues with which they have had to deal in connection with, for instance, banks. There is a real, definite possibility, for which we must be prepared.

We have heard more and more about hacking skills. Businesses and livelihoods now depend on cyber-security for protection, and we have a duty to protect ourselves, to protect Government Departments, and to protect our constituents. Currently, 91% of UK businesses and 73% of UK households have internet access, and £47.2 billion was spent online in the UK alone in 2009. The Minister has said that exact figures are hard to pin down, but a recent study by the Cabinet Office suggests that cybercrime now costs the UK £27 billion a year, with a cost of £2.2 billion to the Government, £3.1 billion to individuals in the form of fraud and identity theft, and by far the largest proportion—£21 billion—to industry.

Cyberspace is a continually evolving environment, and if we are to defend ourselves from the threats that emanate from it, we must keep pace with that change. However quickly a threat is identified, 10 more will have been dreamt up by those who have the capability to do so. We must ensure that our constituents are protected, and, if necessary and if possible, educated as well. One cyber-security chief has pointed out in one of the national papers that even a simple password is better than no password at all, and that many people are frightened of terminology.

I was pleased to learn that the new cyber-security programme essentially seeks to build on the centralised approach established by the last Government, and to tackle some of the emerging gaps. It seeks to establish new cyber-security institutions and education and skills initiatives, with the aim of locating and addressing the weaknesses in existing cyber-measures, anticipating future threats, and building good working relationships across UK sectors, both public and private, as well as within nations. That certainly requires, and is worthy of, the funding support proposed in the motion. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some indication of how, while the investment is taking place, all the regions of the United Kingdom—including Northern Ireland—can benefit from it. I am keen to understand how we in Northern Ireland can gain some direct advantage.

I understand that protection and security are essential for individuals and also for the Government and the Ministry of Defence, and the money must be used to maximise protection and education. The information provided by the Commons briefing stated the following, which determined my support for what has been proposed here today, because these facts and figures are horrendous. Some Members have mentioned them already. The director of GCHQ has described how cyberspace is contested around the clock. In the United Kingdom there are over 20,000 malicious e-mails on Government networks each month, 1,000 of which deliberately target that very department. The Security Service estimates that at least 20 foreign intelligence services are operating to some degree against UK interests in cyberspace. Again, that illustrates the scale of the problem.

The US estimates that the Pentagon’s computer systems are probed 250,000 times an hour, with more than 140 foreign spy organisations trying to infiltrate US networks. During the 2008 Olympic games, Beijing alone experienced 12 million cyber-attacks per day. That underlines the magnitude of this problem and the importance of our being prepared and ready to combat it. I again ask the Minister to comment on the collaboration aspect of that. The report mentions our collaboration with the United States, as other Members have. Can the Minister explain exactly what that entails, and can he assure us that we will not be exploited by the United States of America and its Government?

On the NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence, will Parliament be fully apprised of any decisions regarding participation in that and other international co-operative arrangements? It is important that everyone understands exactly what is proposed and what will happen.

These attacks are happening around the world and in the UK and we must protect ourselves. I am therefore very happy to support the proposals, and I ask the House to support them too, while also ensuring that every pound is spent effectively and enhances the skills of those in Government dealing with these threats. Other Members have stressed the importance of having skills in the MOD at corporal, sergeant and private level, so we can address the many pitfalls that may arise.

While cyber-terrorism may not be physical terrorism of the sort that some of us in this Chamber have faced personally, and whose effects can be seen in blood and tears, the effects of cyber-terrorism can bring a nation to its knees and we must ensure we are not the ones who are brought to our knees, but are instead able to withstand any such attack.

Defence Reform Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Mercer]

I entirely agree, in which case, in my 25-year experience, that is completely wrong.

Moving swiftly on. The Army and training recruiting agency, as it was at the time, could not and would not recruit. We were 40 men under strength when I took command; inside a year, we were 120 men over strength—in a recruiting famine when the economy was apparently buoyant and there were difficulties in finding manpower. What was going wrong with recruiting in the late ’90s is going wrong with recruiting today. I dread to hear people talking about recruiting offices not being open at the weekends; I dread to hear that people are not being recruited especially for the Territorial and the Reserve forces.

In my experience the only way to produce a battalion with an extra company was by fully understanding where to recruit and how to recruit, and by using our own resources. When we realised that recruitment was not particularly for the TA, we took TA recruiters with us, ensured that the particular conditions of the Reserve forces and the Territorial Army were understood and sent those recruits straight to the TA rather than try to confuse them with the Regular Army. I make no pretence of fully understanding the impact of social media, on which Capita and other firms base the core of their recruiting effort—that was different in my day—but I do know that unless we get out with capable and experienced people, seek recruits in the places where they are most plentiful, and physically present the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and the reserve forces, we will not recruit people. We simply will not, and I would be happy to debate that with anyone who thinks it is incorrect.

My hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay tells me that TA numbers are falling, while the Secretary of State for Defence seems to disagree. I am not quite sure, but there seems to be a serious divergence between the two. I would respectfully say that the Secretary of State has mentioned in the past that applications for the reserve forces were going up. On the basis of my experience, however, I would say that applications are very different from enlistments and that the problem is even worse in the reserve forces than it is inside the Regular Army.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I would like to put it on the record in Hansard that recruitment to the TA in Northern Ireland is at a high level, and it has been so over a number of years. From his experience, the hon. Gentleman will know that recruitment to all the services—the Royal Navy, the Air Force and the infantry—has met levels higher than in the rest of the United Kingdom. There are parts of the United Kingdom, then, for which levels of recruitment are high, and Northern Ireland is one of those areas.

--- Later in debate ---

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In yesterday’s debate on women and the cost of living, I asked the Economic Secretary to the Treasury a question about the bonuses paid to men being double the size of those paid to women. I spoke to her in the Lobby tonight. Her reply yesterday was about pay, but my question was about bonuses. Is it right and proper for that to be clarified in Hansard tonight, and perhaps by the hon. Lady in person?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

It is not a point of order, but it is certainly a point of clarification, which the hon. Gentleman has achieved.

Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

Clearly, that decision will be made in the 2015 SDSR. My personal view is well known: I believe that having spent the best part of £3 billion on building the carrier, the £70 million-odd a year that will be required to operate it looks like good value for money.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and his obvious commitment to shipbuilding. What assistance will there be to encourage the retention of shipbuilding skills through apprenticeships and will the opportunity for such apprenticeships be available to all the regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Mr Hammond]

I cannot answer for any wider initiatives that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills might be introducing. The deal to which I have alluded today is a city deal that specifically relates to Portsmouth and Southampton, and therefore by definition it will make funding available for job creation and regeneration only in those areas.

Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to be able to say a few words about this scheme. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) on bringing this matter to the House for consideration. I also congratulate him on the hard work that he has obviously done in relation to the scheme over many years when I was not in the House and on his chairmanship of the new scheme, as we move forward.

I became a Member of Parliament, like the hon. Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley), in May 2010, and one of the first things that I was introduced to was the armed forces parliamentary scheme. I remember that there was an event—in the Jubilee Room, I think—and I met Sir Neil, who informed me about the scheme. From the outset, I was keen to hear more, as in the past I had served with the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Territorial Army Royal Artillery for eleven and a half years as a part-time soldier. I really enjoyed my time in the Army. The scheme gave me the chance to see it from a different perspective—that of a Member of Parliament—and to understand what the soldiers wanted us to do for them. That was always important.

The armed forces parliamentary scheme gave me, along with other Members of Parliament, a chance to join after passing a strict medical, taking part in a physical exercise and having an interview with Sir Neil and his good lady. I was privileged to be able to participate in the scheme. Like other hon. Members, I place on the record my thanks to Sir Neil and Sheila for their courtesy and good manners, for the attention and support that they give everyone on the scheme and, in particular, for the support that they have given to me.

I was able to enrol in the scheme, which facilitated visits to Ministry of Defence locations to meet service personnel and to hear what soldiers wanted and what their views were. It is always good to talk to a soldier. The officers will always give us the picture as they see it—I do not say that as a criticism of course—but the soldiers will always tell us exactly what the position is. We are able to hear from the soldiers what their opinions are, and it is good to hear them, because then we have both sets of opinions and we can mould our thoughts about how to represent soldiers in Parliament on the information that we have.

I had an introduction to the defence academy at Shrivenham, where I was able to see the bigger picture. We had an opportunity to see where the focus of attention would be in the future. Is it oil? Is it water? What are the mineral prospects for the world? We looked at Asia, Africa, the middle east, Alaska, Antarctica—all the big issues. The hope was that we would then be better able to understand the role of the British forces and the pressures that they are under.

I had the chance to go to BATUK in Kenya—the British Army Training Unit Kenya—as well as going to Canada and Cyprus. That was good to do not because we were getting out of the country and going on a visit, but because it gave us an opportunity to see what was happening in Kenya and the new training camp that the British Army was creating and where the focus of attention was in east Africa. There was the chance to see—I had never seen this before—the tank formations and training in Canada and to see in Cyprus the decompression of our soldiers coming back from Afghanistan. All those things give us a bigger flavour of all aspects of life in the armed forces. I had a week with the 1st Mercian at Catterick, and as the hon. Member for Redditch said, we were at Sandhurst.

The interesting thing was that no matter where I went in the world, I always met someone from Northern Ireland who was either fighting a war or cleaning up afterwards. We have a tradition of being a soldiering nation. It was wonderful to meet people from Northern Ireland wherever I went. I met a guy in Kenya—just sitting and having a cup of coffee—who was from Newtownards. On the way to Afghanistan, I met a guy who came from Comber. All these experiences and all the people we met helped to shape our feelings about the armed forces. I then used the information that we had got to ask questions in Parliament.

I had the chance, with the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), to go to Afghanistan. He and I will never forget that. We were there for St Patrick’s day. It was the first dry St Patrick’s day that I had ever experienced in my life—in Afghanistan, there is no alcohol whatever. To see boys from the Irish Guards and Royal Irish Regiment consuming vast amounts of Coca-Cola and mineral water and not what they really wanted was quite an experience.

The visit gave us a chance to see what it was like to be in Afghanistan and how the soldiers were performing and to get feedback from them about things there. Whenever people are in Afghanistan, they are there for six to nine months. We can also ask them how it feels to be away from their families. Therefore, we got a bigger picture of the soldier’s life and the issues in relation to their families back home. We had a chance to visit the army and police training camp at Lashkar Gah, and we were able to ask questions in Westminster about when the police training college would be completed. It was to be funded with $6 million. Again, we were able to ask the Ministry of Defence that question because of our visit to Afghanistan. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire, who introduced the debate, made that point very clearly.

Was the operation just about defeating the Taliban? When I went to Afghanistan, my idea was—I say this quite honestly—“Kill all the Taliban. That’s what we have to do,” but then I realised that it was about more than that. It was not simply about killing the Taliban. It was about persuading them that there was no danger in the allies and what they were doing. It was about winning hearts and minds. My perspective changed on what we should be trying to do.

It was a privilege to meet soldiers, to hear their concerns at first hand and to act on them on returning to Parliament. It was a bonus to be able to see exactly what our troops are going through and to get their perspective on the strategic defence and security review that took place. It was a wonderful experience to hear what the officers and the soldiers—the rank and file—thought of the strategic defence and security review. We could then feed that into the process when we came back to Parliament. That was another opportunity.

The armed forces parliamentary scheme is a tremendous scheme. It is being overtaken now by the armed forces parliamentary trust. It has given me a much better understanding of the role of our service personnel on the battlefield and at home, as they train and prepare for their next tour of duty. It was an opportunity to meet some of the families and see the work that the welfare service does for them. We have SSAFA—the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association. It has people strategically placed all around the world. It does tremendous work. I know a wee bit about its work at home, but it was good to see its work on active duty, where our soldiers were training. It is interesting to see the strains on families, and some of the soldiers we met in Canada were able to tell us what they would like changed. Everything we did was an opportunity to learn something and reflect that back to Parliament—I felt that that was my role. It is clear that our troops do their best on the front line, and they must be assured that their country is doing the best job for their families at home.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend mentioned SSAFA personnel and other groups. Does he agree that the AFPS also offers hon. Members the opportunity to mix with and talk to many of those behind the scenes, about whom the general public never or very seldom hear and to come back to Parliament better informed about what they do?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that wise and truthful contribution. We met soldiers on many occasions, and I thanked every one I met for what they have done, because soldiers make a tremendous contribution to the whole nation and to MPs. My desire is that the scheme continues through the armed forces parliamentary trust, and the arguments for that have been well made. It is a wonderful chance to meet and greet, but more importantly to understand our troops and their struggles and to reflect on them, as we fight for them at parliamentary level.

The soldiers I met were always appreciative of us as MPs. It is not that we are better than anyone else, but we are Members of Parliament and they want to tell us what they are thinking and they want us to reflect it. They need someone to represent their views, which cannot always be understood merely by reading a report, and that is why, with the transformation of the armed forces parliamentary scheme to the armed forces parliamentary trust, I encourage others to support the scheme and see for themselves what happens outside the doors of this place.

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

There are four colleagues standing and 28 minutes to go.

UK Submarine Supply Chain

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Rosindell, to see you in the Chair this afternoon. I am pleased to have secured this important debate on the supply chain for Britain’s submarines. It is particularly timely given the expected publication, perhaps within the next few days, of the Trident alternatives review—the taxpayer-funded vehicle that one half of the coalition Government set in motion to prove that they were right all along about their idea to scrap Trident in favour of some sort of mini-deterrent. How the Government respond to the review will have a direct bearing not only on thousands of jobs across the country but on Britain’s standing as a cutting-edge manufacturing nation.

The submarines that are built by the skilled workers in my constituency are truly extraordinary. The Astute-class boat currently under construction and the Vanguards, which carry Britain’s nuclear deterrent, are among the most technologically sophisticated vessels on the planet. It is no exaggeration to describe them as more complex than the space shuttle.

Barrow is rightly proud of the role that its boats play in ensuring Britain’s security. As an aside, may I say how much I am looking forward to welcoming the Minister to Barrow shipyard next week for the laying of the keel of the six Astute-class submarines? It would be a serious mistake to think that submarine building happens only in Barrow-in-Furness. In fact, this is an enterprise that brings together at least 1,200 firms from every corner and nation of the United Kingdom. The high-tech components and parts, the cutting-edge design skills and the essential services are ultimately brought together in Barrow for the Royal Navy.

It was great to welcome the representatives of some of those firms to Westminster last week when I hosted, along with BAE Systems and the Keep our Future Afloat campaign, a well-attended reception to mark the importance of the supply chain. We were grateful to the Minister for attending and speaking so warmly about the importance of those jobs. The workplaces represented included Rolls-Royce in Derby, which produces the nuclear reactors that power the submarines; Sheffield Forgemasters, which rolls and cuts the high-quality steel for the boats; Babcock, which has employees across the country including Clydeside, Chesterfield and Ludlow; Thales from Glasgow, which makes the periscopes and other communication systems; Truflo Marine, a valve maker from Birmingham; Ultra Electronics from west London; Meltog, a tube-making firm from Leeds and MacTaggart Scott, a naval component engineers from Midlothian.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this important matter to the Chamber. He is talking about the manufacturing skills across England, Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom. Does he feel that the retention of manufacturing skills is vital for our future and that the Government need to give a commitment to retaining the number of submarines, so that we can have a continuity of skills and supply?

Reserve Forces

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I say two things to my hon. Friend. First, the overwhelming majority of respondents to the consultation supported the proposal to change the name of the Territorial Army, better to reflect the role that it will play in future. The second thing is that—he will just have to take my word for this—at senior level there has been a sea change in the attitude in the Army. The Army now understands that it has to grip this as its problem and deliver the solution. I accept that there is still more work to be done in the middle ranks of the Army officer corps, to persuade people to adopt the integrated model for the future. That is a work in progress.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement and concur with the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) on the closure of the Armagh unit; I express my disappointment at that as well. However, the announcement that Kinnegar in Holywood will become a centre for reservists is good news, which I welcome. Civilian staff there have been uncertain about their position in recent months. Can the Secretary of State confirm that Kinnegar will not be subject to any run-down or loss of civilian personnel as it becomes a centre for reservists in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Hammond]

My understanding is that, at the moment, Kinnegar is mostly used as a storage facility and the number of civilians employed there is relatively small. However, I cannot guarantee—this is part of another statement, in a sense—that as that role decreases there will not be some changes in the civilian staffing level. However, if the hon. Gentleman would like me to write to him with further details of the overall position affecting Kinnegar, I will be happy to do so.

Armed Forces

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I rise to thank the shadow Minister and the Opposition for bringing this motion before the House for debate today. Every Member will be aware of my support for the armed forces. I have been a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Territorial Army in the past and I have had the opportunity to travel with other Members through the armed forces parliamentary scheme. That allowed me to see a glimpse of what our armed forces do. I have been on a Navy ship and been to Afghanistan, and I have had the privilege to watch the intensive and back-breaking training done by each man and woman who serve, whether it be at Catterick, Sandhurst, Canada, Kenya or Cyprus. I am a keen supporter of our armed forces, and I will continue to be so.

We must all agree today that the armed forces are deserving of our respect, support and help. The veterans’ flag will fly this Saturday in the town of Newtonards in my Strangford constituency. Through the hard work done by the Ards borough council and the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association Northern Ireland, a veterans’ event has been arranged for September this year.

I am pleased that the motion makes reference to the armed forces covenant—a subject to close to my heart, for which the Democratic Unionist party has been pressing in Northern Ireland. Let me quote from a debate on Northern Ireland affairs:

“A recent report published by the World Health Organisation on post-traumatic stress disorder found that Northern Ireland had a higher incidence of PTSD and trauma-related illnesses than any other conflict-related country in the world”—

ahead of Lebanon and Israel. The study showed that

“nearly 40% of people in Northern Ireland had been involved in some kind of conflict-related traumatic incident.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2012; Vol. 553, c. 642.]

The survey estimated that about 18,000 people in Northern Ireland had developed mental health problems as a result. There is already a huge demand on relevant services from across Northern Ireland as a result of trauma-related illnesses arising from this conflict, which underlines the seriousness of the issues. This tells us that there is such a heavy strain on these services that they are not able to take care of our service personnel, which we should be able to do.

We need a covenant in place. That is the issue to which I ask the Government to respond. We need our Government to follow this through with specific funding, as befits MOD issues, as well as action to bring Northern Ireland up to the standard of the rest of the United Kingdom. We have heard much about what is happening in England, much about what is happening in Scotland, but I want to see the same thing happening for Northern Ireland.

I was dismayed to read a report of what was said—I pay no disrespect to the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois)—in the Commons Welsh Affairs Committee. When asked about the Welsh level of care in comparison with other devolved nations, he said:

“We have a particular challenge in Northern Ireland because of some of the Sinn Fein-run authorities’ views on the covenant and what it represents. In Northern Ireland, this is particularly sensitive and difficult, so if you’re talking about a score card we would have to take that into account.”

That is not acceptable to me or to the people of Northern Ireland; nor is it acceptable to the families of service personnel who come back changed and need specialised and specific help.

Northern Ireland, despite her small size, still contributes 20% of the reserve forces to the Army. Recruitment spans the Catholic and Protestant divide, which is to be encouraged. It is good to see things moving forward. The Northern Ireland cadets, for instance, have had the largest number of recruits for years. In some sections of the cadet force, the ratio of Protestants to Roman Catholics is 50:50. That will give the House some idea of how far things have advanced as a result of the Northern Ireland political process, and of the positive effect of what we have been trying to do.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, especially as I was not able to be present at the beginning of this important debate. Will he take this opportunity to put on record the deep appreciation that is felt by many people throughout Northern Ireland for the Royal British Legion, and for the many other charities that have supported the armed forces throughout the worst of the times and the troubles, and continue to do so in what are now, thank goodness, peaceful times in Northern Ireland?

[Jim Shannon]

I certainly subscribe to that sentiment. We have been extremely lucky to benefit from the work of the many organisations, including the SAAFA group, Combat Stress and Help the Heroes, which have done so much for us.

The Ulster Defence Regiment and the Home Service battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment operate a care service that could perhaps be extended to those serving in the British armed forces. I also ask the Government to consider using buildings that were used during Operation Banner for the benefit of ex-service personnel. I think that we should do more than just ask the House to accept the words in the motion.

Let me end by saying that, to me, “We will remember them” is not merely a phrase; it is a promise. We should not wait any longer to demonstrate that ex-service personnel in Northern Ireland are in our remembrance—today in the House, and tomorrow, as we begin to implement the changes that are so desperately needed.

Operation Herrick

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I am sorry about the railway. If my history serves, we never completed the Cape Town to Cairo railway either, but such are plans. I prefer to focus now on High Speed 2—we should look to the future.

My hon. Friend is right. Today’s announcement will mean that it is not necessary to prepare and train a further brigade to deploy. It is not yet clear whether that will make any significant saving for the taxpayer because most of that deployment, had it taken place, would have been in the back of transport aircraft that would have been going out empty in order to come back with repatriated equipment.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I associate my party with tributes to the soldiers who lost their lives in Afghanistan, and I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. He will be aware of the experience and training gained from Operation Banner in Northern Ireland. Will he confirm that the valuable skills developed through that operation will be made available to the Afghan army to the end of 2014, and indeed beyond?

[Mr Hammond]

I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman that we are training Afghan troops in various specialist techniques that will be of value to the Afghan security forces in maintaining security in future. Of course, that draws on all the experiences that British troops have gained over the years, including many valuable experiences in Northern Ireland.