Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (First sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Public Bill Committees

I very much feel that our duty is to produce a workable and legally watertight piece of legislation. I have some concerns that I want to put on record. We must not prevaricate, procrastinate and keep on discussing indefinitely something that has been discussed for decades prior to its arrival here, but we need the confidence of the public that we have taken balanced views and have allocated sufficient time for witnesses. I put it on record that I am concerned there may be a public perception that the time we have over three days next week, although there is an extension to that time, is insufficient. If we need to return to this and if there is agreement that we need further witnesses, we need—somehow, within the circumscription of private Members’ Bills—the means to revisit that decision.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

I want to briefly address the implication or inference that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, who is leading the Bill, has not produced an incredibly balanced set of witnesses, or indeed a scrutiny Committee. I put it on record that in principle I am in support of assisted dying, but I did not feel that I could support the Bill on Second Reading, as I had a number of concerns including the strength of the Bill. We will be listening to evidence and discussing the issue not on the basis of principle, but on the basis of the strength of the Bill, the deliverability of the Bill and the number of safeguards, among other things. We are not here to debate the principle—that is a really important point.

Points that have been made about the suitability or otherwise of the people coming to speak to us. It is wrong to imply that any of those individuals will use their personal feelings or principles and discount their neutrality. Are we really saying that the British Medical Association, the judges who have been mentioned or the chief medical officer will put their own views in place of their expertise and knowledge?

I should say for the public’s benefit, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley ensured that all Committee members were able to submit hundreds of names for consideration. In my view, she has come up with a panel of witnesses who are incredible experts in their field and have long-standing expertise in these areas, and we should absolutely listen to them.

I am sympathetic to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, who said that we may need extended time to hear from more people. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley would certainly be sympathetic to that and that we can look to do so, if it is necessary. However, the perfect cannot be the enemy of the good. We have to ensure that we move this Committee along at a decent pace and hear from all these people.

Our job is to scrutinise the suitability of the Bill, not the principles. On that basis I oppose the amendment, although I am not against some of the names that have been proposed. Maybe there will be an opportunity to hear from them in future, but I do not think that we can get into a situation where we are removing some names and adding others. We would be here all week if we did, so I will be opposing the amendment.

[The Chair]

I now call the promoter of the Bill. I will then call the mover of the amendment.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I am very mindful of the time, as it is now three minutes past 10. This will be the last question of the session.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Thank you, Professor Whitty and Duncan, for being with us this morning. Professor Whitty, in October you and a number of chief medical officers published an advice note to doctors about a range of guidance on this issue. In it, you said that a couple of things are “unanimous” for medical professionals. I am focusing on the line where it says that

“we must not undermine the provision of good end-of-life care for all including the outstanding work done by palliative care clinicians”.

Do we take it, by implication, that you are fearful that this Bill could undermine good end-of-life care? In your view, how might we mitigate some of those risks in the Bill?

Professor Whitty: I will give a view and then Duncan will be able, as chief nurse, to mention the parallel bit of advice that said similar things. I think all medical, nursing and health professionals very strongly believe that palliative care and pain alleviation, which is not the same as palliative care but overlaps with it, and end-of-life care, which is also not the same but overlaps with it, are essential, and in some areas are not to the high standard that we would hope for. That would be a common view across the medical profession.

My own view and hope is that the Bill should not make the situation either better or worse. It changes one particular aspect in a very important way, but it seems to me that on the principle that we should be improving end-of-life discussions, which is where end-of-life care starts from, as well as supporting further the alleviation of symptoms and the provision of palliative care, there would be no disagreement from anybody in the medical or nursing professions, any other professions or the general public. That must be fundamental to how the Bill is thought about—

[The Chair]

Order. That brings us to the end of our allocated time with these witnesses.

Professor Whitty: Duncan, do you want to say if you agree or disagree?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

Q Has the GMC undertaken a legal assessment of the openness to legal challenge around that Montgomery point—if those conversations were not initiated and patients say that they were not given all the options available to them?

Mark Swindells: We have not done a forensic legal assessment of that nature, but obviously Montgomery is in case law, and Parliament has the power to set primary law. I listened to what the chief medical officer said and what Dr Green says about how restrictive or otherwise that might be in terms of the doctor’s role with the patient.

[Jack Abbott]

Q This might sound like playing devil’s advocate, and I fully appreciate that you do not want to reduce this to a tick-box exercise, as you described it. Some might argue that the risk of what you describe is that it creates a lottery, because you would be relying on doctors to use their personal judgment as to when to have that conversation. For example, if a patient and doctor do not have a particularly close or long-standing relationship, the doctor may not know what the signs are, so the patient, who may need to have that conversation, may never have it. The risk is that you would be reliant on good relationships forming over time and doctors using their intuition, so that some patients will have the conversations they need but others will not.

Dr Green: Obviously, it would be great if we worked in a system where doctors had all the time they needed to deal with their patients. I believe that the Bill mentions a duty to provide information from the chief medical officer, and having read the Bill, to me it seems very much like this might be in the form of a website or leaflet. We believe that it is important that patients should be able to access personalised information, and we would like to see an official information service that patients could go to, either as a self-referral or as a recommendation from their GPs or other doctors. That would give them information not just about assisted dying, but about all the other things that bother people at this stage of their life, and it would mention social services support and palliative care. It could be like a navigation service as much as an information service. That might address some of your concerns.

[Sean Woodcock (Banbury) (Lab)]

Q The issue of coercion came up with our previous witnesses, and they were talking about GPs, doctors and nurses being able to spot it because of their level of training, experience and so on. How frequently does coercion, or lesser versions of it, such as familial pressure and societal pressure, come up in the day-to-day life of a medical practitioner? Is it like the asbestos awareness training that I had in a previous job—something I had to have because I might very rarely bump into asbestos—or is it a tick-box exercise?

Dr Green: You are right: all medical staff have safeguarding training, and of course patients make important decisions often with the influence and help of their family members. Usually this influence is helpful, and it almost always comes from a position of love. The point at which such influence becomes coercion is difficult to find out, but my experience is that it is rare. I would recommend that you look at what has happened in other parts of the world that have more experience with this, because they have it as part of their training modules. Certainly, we would expect capacity and coercion training to be part of the specialised training that doctors who opt in would receive. I anticipate that the general safeguarding training should be sufficient for other doctors, who would obviously only be involved at that very early stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Tidball]

Q But you believe that your members would be able to pick up on and identify issues such as coercion?

Professor Ranger: I do. They are professionals, and I believe they would be able to.

[Jack Abbott]

Q My question, which relates to some of the points made earlier, is for Glyn Berry. Your organisation has recommended a new role: the approved palliative care professional. To go into the detail a bit more, you make a number of recommendations on what that role would include, such as ensuring that the person has the mental capacity to make the decision. First, are you therefore saying that this new role should sit alongside the two-doctor process, which has already been outlined in terms of final decision making? If the approved palliative care professional felt, for example, that this person did not have mental capacity, should they be able to, as it were, stop the process?

Secondly, what level of training would that person need in terms of time? We have, for example, been talking about a two-year process. If this new role came into effect, how long would that person need to be trained for to fulfil it adequately? Thirdly, do you have a sense of how many of these professionals we would need to make this a functioning system? Those are three separate questions.

Glyn Berry: To answer the first question, we feel, for the reasons I outlined earlier, that the role of an approved palliative care professional would sit beside the role of clinicians, balancing clinical and social observation and assessment.

In terms of the training, we, as social workers, already have continuous training opportunities to become best interests assessors, practice educators and approved mental health practitioners, so we envisage that the training would very much be along those lines. Doing those roles currently requires a course of training at university.

Our thoughts, at the moment, are that that would be for palliative care social workers, whether they are in charities, trusts or local authorities, or are independent, because that is where things sit with us at the moment and we know our roles. We like to think that it would roll out to other professionals, however, because assessing capacity is not specifically the role of the social worker; other professionals are able to, and do, complete capacity assessments.

It is quite difficult to answer your question in terms of numbers at the moment. If we were talking specifically about palliative care social workers, we currently have around 200 members in our association, but there will be other people out there who are not members and we do not know who they are. It is a role that could expand.

One of our other recommendations is that palliative and end-of-life care, as an aside to your question, is also brought into qualifying roles for people in training, such as doctors, nurses and allied health professionals, as well as social workers. We could see that happening in the future.

[Kim Leadbeater]

Q Thank you for coming and giving evidence today, and for meeting with me recently. You both represent organisations that have neutral positions on assisted dying. I am really interested in this multidisciplinary approach that you are talking about, and I think it is a really valuable conversation, so thank you for raising those points.

I want to ask a bit more about what this end-of-life conversation looks like in your experience, because you are absolutely right; of all the people who are spending time with patients in their last few months of life, it is often nurses and palliative care social workers. You have a really important role to play.

I am also interested in what this would look like in reality. There has been talk of a kind of separation of palliative care and assisted dying, but, actually, I think we should be looking to embrace a holistic approach to end-of-life conversations and end-of-life care, which is what has happened in other jurisdictions. You might have a patient who has signed up for assisted dying but never does it because they have good palliative care and they work with their palliative care experts and specialists. Therefore, I think it is important that we do not try to separate these things.

I would like your views on that, but I think that one of the strengths is that having these conversations about death, about dying and about end of life is a really positive thing. Your members have an important role to play in that, so could you talk a little bit about the holistic approach that your members take?

Professor Ranger: You are right regarding the conversations and the care around dying. Having those conversations with people around pain management and symptom management is particularly the role of palliative care nurses. With assisted dying, I think the conversation is sometimes slightly different. It is talking more as a nurse in some ways, because the primary reason that assisted dying is often a discussion is a lack of autonomy, not pain. Therefore, the conversation generally tends to go in a slightly different way.

Symptom control, and being scared of pain, is understandable, and we absolutely have the ability to get that right for people, but when it comes to seeking assisted dying, the primary reason is usually autonomy, rather than pain and fear of dying. Therefore, in a practical way, I think an experienced nurse or doctor will start to gauge the difference in those conversations, because they are different. I think it is about being really clear around those conversations and really listening to what people have to say, and then having a way to be able to ensure that what an individual wants is something that you have got, and that you listen to.

I absolutely agree with Glyn about safeguards and all the things that we absolutely need to make sure are there, but the whole point of assisted dying is not to be paternalistic, but to respect autonomy. Whatever safeguards we put in with that, we have to be really careful not to ignore that right of autonomy, which is primarily what this Bill is trying to preserve.

I think it is about being really vigilant and listening. A primary role of a nurse is not to advocate their personal view, but to really listen to somebody else and to ensure that what they want is pursued. In all that discussion, it is really important that that does not get lost.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Dr Clarke and Dr Cox about the registration of deaths, which is dealt with in clause 29. Do you feel that the provisions set out in the clause are sufficient? If not, what further bolstering would provide the oversight needed to ensure that the processes and procedures are followed correctly?

Dr Cox: My understanding of the plan is that in the Bill—forgive me, but I am sketchy on this—the aim is for the registration to be as a natural death. It would not be referred to the coroner, and “assisted dying” would appear on the death certificate.

I am also a medical examiner. My concern is that, as a medical examiner, I am obliged by law to scrutinise all deaths to ensure that a referral to the coroner is not required and to identify any learnings. What concerns me in that role is whether enough recording is happening around decision making and the process to do my job properly. With my medical examiner hat on, do I know what happened? I do not see anything written down in the Bill about the records that are to be kept. What happened when the patient took the substance? What happened afterwards? Were any actions taken in the meantime? That is not so much something I have thought about a lot with my palliative care consultant hat on, but as a medical examiner it concerns me.

Dr Clarke: For the sake of time, I do not have anything to add. I completely agree with that.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Dr Cox, may I follow up on one of the things you said earlier? Forgive me if I have misunderstood; I want to be clear. Earlier, I think you said that in the countries that do not have assisted dying, the state of palliative care has improved more quickly than in countries that do. Is that a fair representation of what you said?

Dr Cox: In European countries and American states.

[Jack Abbott]

Q The whole panel has painted—and we have heard this previously—a pretty bleak picture of the state of palliative care in the UK. Would you say that it was better or worse than it was, say, 10 years ago?

Dr Cox: I suppose it depends who you are. If you live in one of the postcodes where you cannot get palliative care, if you are socially deprived, if you are a member of an ethnic minority or if you have a lung cancer diagnosis, you will not get very good palliative care in this country. I think that is awful.

[Jack Abbott]

Q I guess what I am driving towards is that simply not having assisted dying is not necessarily causation for improvement in palliative care. In this country, for example, we have not seen palliative care improve from where it was 10 years ago, the last time this debate came to Parliament.

Dr Cox: The position we would ask you to consider is whether this is the right time to bring in a law to give people a choice of assisted dying, when they do not have the choice to have good palliative care.

[Jack Abbott]

Q Sure. That is a really fair argument. Again, what I am driving towards is the point you were trying to make earlier, which is—I think this is fair to say—that countries that do not implement assisted dying improve their palliative care system. Clearly, that did not happen in the UK, so my guess is that that is not direct causation, is it? There are a number of other factors, although I agree that—

Dr Cox: The NHS is very different from any other jurisdiction—

[Jack Abbott]

Yes, so the direct comparison is not necessarily relevant. Is that correct?

[The Chair]

Order. Can you address the Chair? This is not a dialogue.

[Jack Abbott]

Sorry. I was trying to make a point—

[The Chair]

I understand that, but address it through the Chair.

Dr Cox: Palliative care may well have improved in this country over those years when it also improved in other countries where assisted dying was not available. What we are saying is that there has been chronic underfunding of palliative care, so where we are now is inadequate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Q Alex, thanks for the written evidence and your experience in capacity assessment. We heard from the previous panel, especially from the practising Dr Clarke, how complex it is. She was explaining how she does not think everyone has enough training in capacity assessment, and it is so complex in NHS healthcare areas. You made an observation about multidisciplinary involvement, rather than just two doctors. Do you think having more than two people involved in the decision making can strengthen the Bill?

Alex Ruck Keene: I think for many reasons it can. On the pure capacity side, this is, at one level, an existential question. This is not a healthcare decision but an existential decision. The more people we have who are able to bring their different perspectives—the social work perspective on the person’s social circumstances or the medical perspective on their medical condition—the better, so that we have as many eyes on the person and insights into the person as possible.

It is about trying to make sure that the decision goes back to whether we are really satisfied that the criteria set out at the beginning of the Bill are met. I personally think we should have MDTs, for instance, as you would have in a Mental Health Act detention, so that we have more than one pair of eyes on it from more than one discipline.

[Jack Abbott]

Q Sir Nicholas, I am going to paraphrase a little bit, but you said people with Parkinson’s will never get a terminal diagnosis, so this Bill is no use to you at all—I think you used stronger language than that when you made your original statement.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: I was sort of taken by surprise when she asked the me the question in the pub, and I would not have phrased it like that in court 50.

[Jack Abbott]

Q Sure. Let us phrase it in a different way today. Would you be able to expand on your thinking there?

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: Parkinson’s is such a complex condition. The medically qualified amongst you will know this—there are so many symptoms, and with the rate of development and the direction of travel, it is an enormously complex condition to know. That is why it is commonly accepted that you do not die from Parkinson’s, you die with Parkinson’s, and it is almost impossible to give a mortality rate as to when that is likely to happen—almost impossible.

When I was doing my research, I was slightly surprised to see that last year 6,000 death certificates had Parkinson’s written on them. They do say that the experts in Parkinson’s are the people with it, but the people you talk to are quite clear that it is impossible to predict and it is a really complex thing. That is why this arbitrary—I use the word technically—six-month period is a problem. If a doctor opines conscientiously and honestly, unless the Parkinson’s patient has already developed pneumonia, sepsis or something of that nature, or complications from falls—the common reasons for death—you will never get that six-month ticket. That is the thing; that is the problem.

[Jack Abbott]

Q In your view—I think you kind of said it before, and I would hate to put words in your mouth—are you saying that Parkinson’s sufferers and other similar—

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: Neurodegenerative.

[Jack Abbott]

Yes, those with such conditions. Are they left out of this debate?

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: They are.

[Jack Abbott]

Q In your view, and that of the rest of the panel, is there a way to legislate to include them?

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: It has been suggested that I want to expand the definition of terminal illness. I do not want to expand it. I want to redefine it so that it is more appropriately focused, in my opinion, on what this Bill should be about, which is the relief of suffering. That is what I believe the Bill should be about. You should get the permission to have an assisted death if you are suffering intolerably within five months of death or seven months of death—there should not be this arbitrary line.

Moreover, it should not be open to people who are not suffering, but who happen to have a six-month life expectancy. There are probably quite a few of them, for one reason or another, whose life expectancy is short, but their pain is well-managed. I do not believe that assisted dying should necessarily be available for them. I do believe very strongly—this is not an expansion, but in my view, a more appropriate focused redefinition of terminal illness—that it should be, as in Spain and in Holland, focused on suffering.

[Rebecca Paul]

Q My questions are to Alex Ruck Keene. Thank you for your written evidence, which I read with great interest. I have two questions for you. This follows on nicely from the discussion we have just had. Is there any risk that if the terminal illness definition were to remain in the Bill, it could be challenged under the European convention on human rights?

My second question, which is completely different—just to mix it up—is on a really interesting point in your written statement about how we need to give consideration to the national suicide prevention strategy. I found that really interesting, because the Bill potentially turns on its head the way we view suicide, and obviously we have been sending a certain message out there, particularly to our young people. Could you elaborate on the point you were making in your written evidence to the Committee?

Alex Ruck Keene: Gosh—yes. There is absolutely no way that you can stop people trying to challenge whatever Act is passed; there is no way you can stop people seeking to challenge that under the ECHR. We then get into this enormous argument about whether it is inevitably discriminatory. Courts to date have been very clear: “We are not going to get into this; it is for Parliament to decide whether to make assisted dying legal.” Once it is made legal for some people, but not for others, there is a difference in treatment. Whether it is discriminatory, and therefore contrary to articles 8 and 14 of the EHCR, depends on whether that difference is justified.

I am trying to be very careful in my language, because I try to do that. The Bill Committee and Parliament need to be very clear how, if you are going to limit this to a cohort of people—I feel acutely conscious that I am sitting next to somebody who would be excluded—it could be explained to somebody that they are not eligible and that there is a difference in treatment but it is perfectly justified. If you cannot do that, it will be discrimination.

The courts have been very clear that you do not have to have a system, but if you are going to have one—for example for social security benefits—then you need to have one that is non-discriminatory. That is the answer I can give to that. The one thing I can say is that you cannot stop lawyers trying to challenge. That is what they will do.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: All laws discriminate; 69 mph is not an offence but 71 mph is. All laws discriminate. The question is whether it is justifiable.

Sir Max Hill: It is also a question of providing legal certainty, which is why the definitions in the Bill are so important. Provided that it is articulated clearly and within what the European Court so often calls the margin of appreciation, which it gives to sovereign states, then although I agree with Alex that a challenge may be possible, I cannot see a successful challenge to the Bill if it is drawn with the sorts of provisions we have here. Indeed, we have not seen local nation state examples of this sort being struck down by the European Court elsewhere in Europe, so I think it is very unlikely that we would see such a strike-down here.

Alex Ruck Keene: I really hate to get into it with such eminent lawyers, but there has not been a case in Strasbourg seeking to say that a limited class of case is discriminatory, so we just do not know.

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: I agree with that. I have changed my mind twice about this subject.

Alex Ruck Keene: Do you mind if I quickly touch on something else?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Abbott]

Q I will keep my question quite short. Is there anything about the law in either of your jurisdictions where you think there could be improvement, and that we can learn from in drafting our legislation here?

Dr Kaan: The thing I have been reading about that is concerning to me is the court approval that you seem to have written into your law. I heard your discussion this morning about how that might be done and whether it is a committee or the High Court and so on. I think that that is really going to limit access to this, and that makes the process a much lengthier one.

Again, these are people at the end of their life. People are not looking, by and large, to cut off a huge amount of their life; they are looking to shorten their death, not shorten their life. By making people go through a court appeal in addition to two qualified physicians, as well as the waiting period, I think that you are going to limit access for people who desperately want this option. It seems like that might be baked into your law, but I would say that that is a concerning feature to me. I think that you are going to limit access that way.

Dr Spielvogel: Something that it turned out was not in our law, but everyone thought that it was for a few years, and it really limited our practice, was that many people were under the impression that the physician could not bring up assisted dying with the patients, and that the patients had to bring it up themselves. That turned out not to be in our law, but that idea really hampered our ability to take care of patients, so I would strongly recommend that there not be anything like that in your Bill. People cannot make informed decisions for themselves if they do not know what their options are. While this is top of mind for all of you and for the doctors—we all know that this exists—even if this Bill becomes law, the general population is still not going to realise that it is an option.

I eat, sleep and breathe this. I am a primary care physician, and when I am going through the options with patients who are newly diagnosed with a serious life-threatening illness, I say, “Okay, here’s what disease-directed treatment would look like. We can continue with your chemo. Here are some side effects and complications that you might have, and here are the benefits of that. Here’s what palliative care or hospice care would look like.” Then I say, “I don’t know if you know this, but in our state we have this other option for people nearing the end of their lives when they have intolerable suffering. You can ask me to fill a lethal prescription for you to help end your suffering sooner.”

The number of times that people look at me and say, “You can do that? That’s an option here?” is astounding. I would say that nine out of 10 of patients I have conversations with have no idea that that is even legal. If they do not know it is an option, they are never going to ask for it. For physicians to do their jobs properly and deliver care to people, and for people to actually have a choice, physicians need to be able to discuss it with their patients.

Dr Kaan: I will just piggyback on that. I cannot count the number of times I have given a presentation or a talk to communities, and people—usually family members of someone who have died, not using this law—have come up to me afterwards and said, “Thank you for what you said. My loved one was interested in having this information, or wanted to talk to their doctor about it, but their doctor never brought it up, so we weren’t sure if we should be bringing it up.” It is a huge burden to put on patients and their loved ones if they have to bring it up themselves. I would highly caution against any sort of language that requires that, because it is just not fair to them. They are already going through so much and, as Dr Spielvogel said, you cannot have an informed decision-making discussion with a patient if they do not have all the options available for discussion.

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

Q I want to drill down a bit more on the question of training. Could you say a bit more about how the training works? Is it mandatory for everyone who takes a medical qualification to a certain standard? How many class hours are required? Is there an in-practice shadowing process? Is there an assessment process to verify that the person is qualified as a result of the training? I am just trying to get a better sense of the detail of the training. I will perhaps start with Dr Kaan.

Dr Kaan: That is a really important question, because this is a really important topic in the United States. Our laws are very clear that participation is voluntary, so there is no such mandatory training across medical training in general. It is always voluntary. If a physician or provider wishes to have training, they can seek it out. What is available and the standard of care differ from state to state. Certainly, in the state of Washington, where I am the medical director of the organisation that is most largely involved with this, the bulk of my job is doing training, mentoring and shadowing. There is no exam at the end of that process, but there is certainly shadowing and a feedback process.

I am also heavily involved with the Academy of Aid-in-Dying Medicine, which has been very active in creating professional training. We have a Journal of Aid-in-Dying Medicine, which is a peer-reviewed journal that puts out articles that are relevant to the topic. The Academy of Aid-in-Dying Medicine is now undertaking certification pathways, so each level of provider—social workers, chaplains, physicians and anyone else who might be involved in the aid-in-dying process—will be able to take these certifications. A more uniform education system will be available. We are just at the beginning of creating those, but it is very exciting, and we are very happy to have those out. A lot of resources are out there in the world already, in general, to train providers in how to do this well, and it would be really smart to have something in your Bill that outlines what the training should be, whether you will make it mandatory or voluntary and perhaps some sort of certification pathway.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Order. I did say one question per person; we have to stick to the timings.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Dr Fellingham, given your experience of both the British and the Australian healthcare systems, do you believe there are any fundamental differences that would affect how assisted dying is implemented in this country? If there are, how might we be able to mitigate them?

Dr Fellingham: In the UK you are missing a number of the challenges that we have, such as the geographical challenges in a state as vast as Western Australia. You also have a golden opportunity to look, as you are, across every jurisdiction that already has laws in operation and cherry-pick the best bits of what is working well in those jurisdictions, and so create the very best, most robust and most patient-centred legislation you can.

The healthcare systems are broadly similar. We are both first-world, developed western countries. We are still operating in a context of resource limitation, but not resource limitation that is so prohibitive that it would make it particularly difficult to enact a law in the UK. The United Kingdom would be broadly able to follow any of the laws that exist in Australia and implement them very successfully.

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

Q Thank you for joining us this morning. I am interested in following up on what Dr Mewett said about the relationship with palliative care, which has an important role to play in end of life treatment. What is the relationship between assisted dying and the palliative care world like? Also, I would like to hear a bit more about the multidisciplinary board, which I think you set up, Dr McLaren. What does the multidisciplinary approach look like in your jurisdictions?

Dr Mewett: There is no doubt that traditionally palliative care has eschewed any idea of voluntary assisted dying, for a number of historical reasons that I have spoken about in other fora and will not go into now. But it is changing, and there is a general change in attitude, especially among the younger palliative care training doctors and young clinicians, who see this as part of patient-centred care, honouring the patient’s autonomy and choice, while still addressing deeply their concerns and suffering in pain management and so on.

That will see a change. I do understand where it has come from. When one looks at it almost forensically, it does not stack up and will continue not to stack up to have someone saying, “Well, VAD is not part of palliative care.” VAD is part of patient choice and it will be part of palliative care ongoing. That will evolve over time.

I am sorry but I did not quite catch the meaning of the question about the multidisciplinary aspect, Ms Leadbeater.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you. This will have to be the last question.

[Jack Abbott]

Q I have a question for Mr Amin. You worked on the judicial review of Noel Conway in 2018. For the benefit of the Committee and those watching, Mr Conway had terminal motor neurone disease and he looked to bring a judicial review in order to have the option of assisted death, when he was in the final six months of his life. Mr Amin, what were your experiences from that case that may inform the Committee’s learnings when looking at the Bill?

Yogi Amin: Mr Conway was an extremely intelligent and brave individual who campaigned in this area. His strong view about autonomy led him to bring that case, and what he was arguing for in that case forms part of what you have here in the Bill. He was certainly asking for a process in which a decision could be made and some robust safeguards could be provided, which would end up with a court process, and that is what you have within the Bill. I also learned through that case, and others over the years, what the Human Rights Act, the European convention and parliamentary sovereignty mean here. On all three counts, the cases have always said that it is Parliament that makes the decision—so it is you who are deciding. I do not see a court overturning that.

The courts in the Conway case—the High Court, the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court—were all very clear that it is a matter for Parliament. I really do not see the European Court of Human Rights overturning it in any way at all, and that is from my long experience. The margin of appreciation is very strong with this Parliament to make the decision. I also think, from a drafting perspective, the Bill very carefully defines the individuals—it has drawn the line. Certainly, the courts cannot do it; they cannot extend that line and they will always defer back to Parliament. If you craft the Bill as it is, I am very confident that it will be left here.

[The Chair]

Order. I am terribly sorry but we are out of time.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Sixth sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Green (Chesham and Amersham) (LD)]

Q On that point about palliative care, I will direct my question to Dr Furst. What has been the response from palliative care professionals to the introduction of assisted dying in Australia? We have heard evidence from people working in the sector in the UK, but I am keen to hear about your experience in Australia. I understand that Palliative Care Australia’s national workforce survey explicitly looked at this, so I am keen to hear what its findings were.

Dr Furst: It has been a journey, certainly. Victoria started their voluntary assisted dying in 2019. I would be lying if I said that the palliative care community were completely on board with it at that point, but over the last five to six years there has been a real shift in mentality. We have seen that they can go hand in hand. Palliative care is about end-of-life choices. Voluntary assisted dying is about end-of-life choices. It is about putting the patient and the individual front and centre, and working with them. That is fundamental to palliative care. We have realised that voluntary assisted dying is a promotion of palliative care and it gives back choices.

Probably some of the older palliative care clinicians have not embraced voluntary assisted dying quite as much. That is probably very generalised, but certainly new consultants and new doctors that are coming through really see this as something that they want to do. I do not think that there is any animosity any more between the practitioners that choose to work in this space and those that do not. I get huge amounts of support from other palliative care physicians that do not necessarily act as practitioners. There is no real divide. It has been embraced, to be honest. In another five years, I think there will probably be very few palliative care practitioners who do not support this, unless they are true conscientious objectors for their own reasons—I guess, probably religious reasons. Palliative Care Australia and the peak medical bodies in Australia have generally shifted to see this as part of patient choice.

Alex Greenwich: The journey to voluntary assisted dying in New South Wales, and indeed across every Australian state, has benefited palliative care access and funding. In New South Wales, 85% of people who have accessed voluntary assisted dying are receiving palliative care. As part of the process, the co-ordinating and consulting practitioners also advise them on palliative care. The doctors are trained on the latest advances in palliative care. Baked into the principles of our legislation is access to palliative care for all citizens of New South Wales. Importantly, throughout our debate, whether Members supported or opposed the reform, our entire Parliament came together to ensure palliative care received an increase in funding and any access issues were addressed. The Australian experience with voluntary assisted dying is that it benefits and strengthens the palliative care system.

Professor Blake: Can I can I add to that? The Voluntary Assisted Dying Board in WA, as in all the other jurisdictions, produces a report. The very strong sentiment of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Board, and indeed within the Western Australia community, is that voluntary assisted dying is seen as part of the end-of-life journey. The board’s report states that the statistics and experience of Western Australians

“confirms…that voluntary assisted dying is an established and enduring end of life choice”.

For that reason, there has been quite a significant awareness that practitioners should be able to bring up voluntary assisted dying with the patient as part of that suite of end-of-life choices. That has been something that the evidence has suggested is very important, because if the practitioners are feeling that they cannot raise it in that context, that is having a detrimental effect on the patients who would like information on it. That has been our experience in Western Australia.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q My question is to you, Mr Greenwich. I understand that in New South Wales—and please do correct me if I am wrong—similarly to the Bill we are proposing, you adopted legalised assisted dying for those who are terminally ill and will die within six months, but you also added an additional criterion, which was within 12 months for a neurodegenerative disease such as motor neurone disease. That element is not proposed in our Bill, but we have heard from other witnesses over previous days about that issue. What reflections might you have regarding that, and why did you add that element into the Bill beyond the six months that we are proposing here?

Alex Greenwich: Thank you very much for your question. At the outset, I will just stress that every jurisdiction should legislate the form of voluntary assisted dying that is appropriate to them. In New South Wales, that was six months for a terminal illness, or 12 months if that terminal illness was a neurodegenerative disorder. We had learned from the other schemes in Australia that that was going to be important because of the decline that occurs in neurodegenerative disorders like motor neurone disease, for example. It was because of that that we went down that path.

Professor Blake: I should add that in Queensland, there is no such distinction in life expectation between other diseases and neurodegenerative diseases. Queensland legislation is different: it sets a 12-month period of expected death, and the reason for that approach was in response to feedback from people living with neurodegenerative disease that they felt that they were being put in a different position to people suffering from, or experiencing, other terminal illnesses. The Queensland Parliament took a different approach to address that particular feedback.

Dr Furst: From South Australia’s perspective, we are similar to New South Wales; we have less than six months for all conditions bar neurodegenerative conditions, which is less than 12 months. As a clinician, personally, I think that 12 months for neurodegenerative conditions is really helpful, because—as you have heard—if you are looking at prognosis and trajectories, with things like cancer, a patient will be going along and then often have quite a steep and rapid decline. That six-month prognosis is quite noticeable, but for patients with conditions like motor neurone disease, their decline can be slow and very distressing to them. Also, when trying to balance the prognosis along with getting them through the process, 12 months is really helpful, so if there was any chance, I would be strongly advocating for that.

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

Q Thank you to the witnesses for joining us this morning. I would like to address my comments to Alex Greenwich, if I may, but also come back to Dr Furst and Professor Blake.

It is really valuable for us as a Committee to hear your reflections on the experience of the process of passing this legislation. How did you manage to keep that process patient-centred but also take into account the concerns around the broader societal issues, particularly when it comes to equality and human rights—those really important issues? What was that process like, and what are your reflections on it? Also, Dr Furst and Professor Blake, one thing that I feel really strongly about is having really good training around assisted dying, and end-of-life care and choice. Would you like to make any comments on what that looks like?

Alex Greenwich: Thank you very much for that question. I will take you through a little bit of the journey to voluntary assisted dying in New South Wales, what encouraged action, and then the safeguards that we put in place.

The New South Wales coroner had reported to us that there were a number of really horrible suicides of people with terminal illnesses who felt they had no option—that those were cruel and lonely suicides. That was backed up by paramedics and police who would arrive on site. Myself and my parliamentary colleagues decided, “We can do better, and we can regulate in this space.” Voluntary assisted dying in New South Wales is an important form of suicide prevention. What voluntary assisted dying does, in the model that we legislated, is ensure that a person who has a terminal illness and knows that it is going to be a cruel and painful end of their life is instead directed to a doctor—a doctor who will be able to take them through all of their palliative care options, provide and link them with social supports, and give them the choice to have a death that is better than their illness would otherwise provide.

It has been important to make sure that our legislation is limited to that cohort of people who are terminally ill and know they will have a cruel end of life. Our legislation is not about people with anorexia nervosa. It is not about people with a disability. It is not about people who are feeling a burden. It is about a very limited and narrow cohort of people who know that they are going to have a very cruel and painful end of their life, and want that control to know that they can have a death that is better than what their illness would otherwise provide.

We have ensured that decision-making capacity needs to be enduring. We have ensured that a person cannot be under any form of coercion. We ensured that we had a really strong period of implementation, from the time the Bill was passed to 18 months later, when it came into effect, to make sure that our health system and the various doctors required training.

In New South Wales, the experience of voluntary assisted dying is that it has been a form of suicide prevention, and that it has also been, as I explained earlier, very pro-palliative care. As I reflect on our parliamentary debate, it was also one of the first times that our Parliament had grappled with the concept of death. We were very honest about it, and we were very honest in having to admit that we are all going to die, that there are some people with some terminal illnesses who are going to die in a really cruel and painful way, and that we could provide them with an option of control, peace and respect. We believe, and our annual reports into our legislation indicate, that we have been able to provide that. I am happy to answer any further questions, but I will wrap up on that.

Professor Blake: Given that the Western Australia legislation has been in force rather longer than the other jurisdictions that have been talked about today, we have had the opportunity to reflect upon it—I am speaking here as a lawyer; I assume that is why I have been invited to talk—and that has revealed some of the very good things about the working of the legislation, but also some of the challenges that have emerged.

As Dr Furst has said, the legislation in all Australian jurisdictions varies slightly, but it follows a particular legislative model, and is highly prescriptive. It requires a number of requests and, in Western Australia, assessment by two different practitioners. In Western Australia, there is no judicial double-checking of that process. Although I note that that is contemplated within the UK law, that is not something that we have found to be necessary or even appropriate in Western Australia, and I think that would be the case in other Australian jurisdictions.

One of the issues we have experienced is that there is a struggle to get people to take up the training, whether that be medical practitioners or nurse practitioners. One of the thoughts around that has been the very prescriptive nature of the model, which requires a lot of work on the part of the practitioners. It is worth bearing in mind when looking at your piece of legislation that the more prescriptive it is, the more work it requires on the part of practitioners, and that is a lot of work. We need those people to undergo the training in order that the process is done properly and all the safeguards that are included within the legislation—and they are extensive—are respected. That is something to bear in mind.

We have prescriptive provisions around capacity and voluntariness and lack of coercion. I would add that we also have a requirement around residency. If we are looking at when the legislation has come before a tribunal or judicial body, the only circumstance—in Western Australia, at least—where it has come before the tribunal, which is the State Administrative Tribunal, has been where the practitioner has regarded the patient as not eligible on the grounds of not fulfilling the residency requirements. There has been no other ground on which a matter has been taken to a judicial body.

You asked about the training. That is an essential requirement for practitioners who are involved in making assessments and in the whole process. It is intrinsic to the operation of the Act. The feedback I have heard is aligned with what Dr Furst has said—that no divisions have arisen within the practitioners here, and that those who have chosen to do the training are indeed very valued and very much appreciated by the people who have accessed the scheme.

I will say two more things about the regulation. One is that in the report that has been handed down, the only negative feedback has been about delays. That has been identified as being due to a lack of education among health professionals. One of the recommendations of the report is that education really needs to increase so that people’s journey on VAD is not unnecessarily delayed and, perhaps, their wishes are not able to be granted.

The second thing is on conscientious objectors: 13.7% of applications for VAD in Western Australia from 2023 to 2024 were declined on the basis of conscientious objection. But in Western Australia, unlike some other Australian jurisdictions, if a practitioner declines to become involved in the process, they are required by law to give the patient an information sheet outlining options around voluntary assisted dying. That is actually mandated in the legislation.

I have probably said enough for now, so I will hand over to Chloe.

Dr Furst: I completely agree with Meredith that the training is fundamental. For most jurisdictions, it probably takes a full day. It is often an in-person event followed by an exam, which you have to pass. In South Australia, we had a whole lot of mandatory questions that you actually had to pass to be eligible, to make sure that you were upholding the legislation.

This is so different from anything else in medicine. In any other part of medicine that I practise, if I see a process that I think can be improved—if I see efficiencies that can be made or bits of the system that are not adding to patient care—I can choose to adapt the process as I see fit to give the patient the care that I want to give or that is compatible with what the patient wishes. That is so different from voluntary assisted dying, where, as Meredith said, it is so legislated, down to who can be a witness for various documents. As a doctor, the amount of documentation that is required for voluntary assisted dying is second to nothing. We just do not do that kind of documentation in any other areas of medicine. So it is quite different, and it really does require being quite precise around that documentation and making sure that you are meeting all the timeframes and guidelines. The training is hugely important in terms of the operational component.

There is also the training around end of life and conversations, and how you support the patient and the families. That is a lot harder to teach. That is, I guess, why people will fall into this, and why a large number of palliative care doctors will do it—because it is already second nature to them or they already have the relationship with the patient and they see these conversations as something they are good at and good at facilitating.

So there are two parts of that training that are really important, and then, as Meredith said, there is also the training we need to be giving to the rest of our workforce, and really all health practitioners. A patient might ask the social worker, the orderly or the dietician about assisted dying, and they have to know how they can respond and how they can connect that individual to the right practitioner. That is really important. We have done a lot of work in South Australia, as all the other jurisdictions have, around upskilling the whole workforce, because this is everyone’s role and job.

I also wanted to speak briefly on what we in South Australia call the gag clause. In South Australia and Victoria, we are not allowed to bring up voluntary assisted dying with patients, and that is really, really problematic. From my perspective, it leads to poor provision of care. In medicine, when I am talking to a patient, in every other area, if they needed treatment, I would be obliged, and it would be good practice, to tell them about all the treatment options that are available to them. If someone had cancer, I would want to be telling them about good palliative care, potentially surgery, and radiotherapy and chemotherapy, yet voluntary assisted dying is the one thing we are not allowed to talk about and is taken off the menu. Some people may not know that voluntary assisted dying is available to them. They might be waiting for me as the doctor to bring it up to them. I have brought up every other option for them; why am I not able to talk about voluntary assisted dying? I just think it is really important that we do not stigmatise voluntary assisted dying and that we see it as a valid option for people.

Professor Blake: To add to what Chloe said, in Western Australia practitioners can raise voluntary assisted dying as long as it is in association with other end-of-life choices, but the way the legislation is worded is confusing, so one of the recommendations in the most recent report is that that be removed altogether so that voluntary assisted dying is treated like any other treatment option. As Chloe indicated, the evidence was that treating voluntary assisted dying differently can compromise the whole end-of-life journey, because it interferes with discussion of other end-of-life options. The strong recommendation from the board is that it be removed altogether and that voluntary assisted dying be treated just like any other appropriate treatment option so that the patient has a true choice.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q286 Professor Owen, you have talked extensively about the complexity of the Bill. I think it fair to say that our previous witnesses this week believe that the simplest safeguards are the safest. I stress that the simplest does not necessarily mean the weakest; it means a straightforward plan. Do you agree with the points that the chief medical officer and others have made about simplicity? Where do you stand on that, and on the broader point about complexity?

Professor Owen: I am somewhat reminded of the old adage that for every complex problem there is a simple solution that is false. We are dealing with complexity here—I think we have to accept that—but complex law or poor law will not provide good safeguards. If you step back and think about what the Bill is really about, at its simplest, it is about the decisional right to end one’s own life in terminal illness.

Associated with that is the concept of mental capacity. I have had over 20 years of research interest in mental capacity. When I look at the issues relating to mental capacity with the Bill, they are complex, but the other important point to understand is that they are very novel. We are in uncharted territory with respect to mental capacity, which is very much at the hub of the Bill.

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

Q To elaborate on that point, Professor Owen, the Mental Capacity Act 2005 sets out the principles that a person must be assumed to have capacity, that a person cannot be treated as lacking capacity unless all practicable steps have been taken to support them and that a person cannot be treated as lacking capacity merely because their decision is unwise. Is it those issues that are causing you concern about capacity, or is it something else?

Professor Owen: It is a bit more fundamental than that, actually. If you look at how mental capacity features in the Bill, the test or the concept that clause 1 rightly invites us to consider—rightly, I think—is the capacity to decide to end one’s own life. The Mental Capacity Act comes in at clause 3.

I have looked at mental capacity a lot in research, and there is no experience of the decision to end one’s own life. It is outside the experience of the Mental Capacity Act, the Court of Protection, the associated research and practitioners on the ground. The reference to the Mental Capacity Act in clause 3 puts you into an area where there is no experience of the central capacity question under consideration. It is very important that Parliament be clear-eyed about that. I can talk about the Mental Capacity Act in detail if you like, but that is the main point that I want to make.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sean Woodcock (Banbury) (Lab)]

Q My question is for Claire Williams, about the drugs that are used in the various jurisdictions and how that interplays with your view on whether this law comes into place. What are your views on the drugs that would be put forward for assisted dying?

Claire Williams: I am not familiar per se with the types of drugs that will be used for assisted dying cases. In terms of my experience in research ethics, we make life and death decisions on a daily basis and decide whether we would offer patients the opportunity to take very experimental drugs. That is particularly difficult when dealing with terminally ill patients. What is so beneficial with using a committee-based model is that those decisions can be made collectively—decisions that are very similar and have real parallels in terms of ensuring that patients have fully consented, that they have capacity and that there is no coercion involved in recruiting them to clinical trial. That is how I see those parallels and how I feel assisted dying cases should be considered.

[Jack Abbott]

Q Professor Preston, you have extensive research into palliative and end-of-life care. It would be really helpful for the Committee if you could describe some of the underlying motivations about why people come to the decisions they do when choosing end-of-life care, and how you feel assisted dying would sit as an available option for those making those decisions, if it was available.

Professor Preston: The decision to go into palliative care is often made more by a clinical team, recommending that there be changes in the goals of care and what we are to aiming do. There are two big European studies looking at that at the moment, in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and cancer. It is about trying to get triggers so that those changes in care can happen, because people cannot make decisions unless they are informed and they are aware.

Equally, when it comes to assisted dying, we have done interviews with bereaved families and healthcare workers in the United States, the Netherlands and Switzerland, and also with British families who access assisted dying through Dignitas. We hear from the family members that it is something they have really thought about for a long time. It might come to a crunch point where they know they are potentially going to lose capacity, they are potentially going to lose the abilities that are important to them—although for someone else, losing them may not be an issue.

That is when people start to seek help. They usually first seek help from one or two family members. There is often secrecy around that, because you do not want everyone talking about it. It is quite exhausting to talk about. It is a decision you have made. Then they seek help from healthcare professionals, and that is where they get a varied response depending on who they access. It is a bit of a lottery, because it only a minority of doctors will be willing to do this. That is where the challenge comes in.

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

Q Professor Preston, in your written submission, you effectively propose reversing the presumption of capacity that is set out in the Mental Capacity Act. Could you go into a little more detail about that and the reasons behind that proposal?

Professor Preston: The submission was with my colleague, Professor Suzanne Ost, who is a professor of law, and that very much came from Suzanne.

I think the aim is to have that bit of extra concern, so that we do not presume capacity, but instead almost presume that there is not capacity. It would be a bit like if you go to A&E with a child and they have a fracture. The presumption there is to ask, “How did this happen?” and “Do we need to rule anything out?”, rather than just assuming “Well, they have just fallen over” and that things are exactly as said. There is an element of that, where we are not presuming capacity, but are actually going into it and switching it around within the training to ask, “Do they have capacity?”. I think that would be a change within the Mental Capacity Act.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Gordon]

Q We have had a lot of conversations and taken a lot of evidence over the last few days about a gag clause to prohibit medical professionals raising assisted dying as part of the options at end of life. We have heard from different states and jurisdictions on whether or not that is something that they had. Broadly speaking, the consensus was that it did not seem to work. Dr Mulholland or Dr Price, I wondered if you had any comment on that.

Dr Mulholland: That is something we have been thinking about carefully at the RCGP. Part of our normal discussion will often open it up for patients to lead discussions around their end of life. We see there could be potential restrictions for that clinical consultation with a gag order. We very much follow the opinion I heard from Dr Green from the British Medical Association earlier in the week. We go along with that.

We are very protective of our relationship as GPs, and want to give patients the options that they might want to choose for themselves. We are not usually pushing anyone to any decision, but supporting them through their end-of-life journey. We would want to protect that in whatever way, so we therefore feel that a service we can signpost to would be the most appropriate thing as the next step.

Dr Price: As a psychiatrist and as a representative of the psychiatric profession, it is noted in the Bill that mental disorder is a specific exclusion. It is very unlikely that a psychiatrist would suggest or bring up assisted dying in a conversation.

I think a concern allied to that is people with mental disorder who request assisted dying from their psychiatrist. It may be clear to all that they do not meet eligibility criteria for that, but it is not absolutely clear in the Bill, as it is written, to what extent a psychiatrist would have to comply with a wish for that person to progress to that first assessment. There is quite a lot involved in getting to that first official assessment, such as making a declaration and providing identification. A psychiatrist might therefore have to be involved to quite an extent in supporting that person to get there if that is their right and their wish, even though it may be clear to all that they do not meet eligibility criteria if that is the primary reason for their asking to end their life.

[Jack Abbott]

Q My question is also for you, Dr Price. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has been really clear in its statement that we as parliamentarians have to consider the outstanding questions about a person’s capacity to decide to end their own life, and whether it can be reliably assessed, and you particularly cite the implications for those with mental disorders, intellectual disabilities and neurodevelopmental conditions. Do you believe that anyone requesting assisted dying should be assessed automatically by a psychiatrist, or that certain criteria should have to be met for a psychiatric assessment to be undertaken?

Dr Price: If I take you to thinking about what an assessment of capacity would normally look like, if we think about clinical practice, a psychiatrist would normally get involved in an assessment of capacity if the decision maker was unclear about whether that person could make a decision. The psychiatrist’s role in that capacity assessment would be to look for the presence of mental disorder, and at whether mental disorder was likely to be impacting on that person’s decision making. They would advise the decision maker, and the decision maker would then have the clinical role of thinking about that information and assessing capacity with that in mind.

Psychiatrists sometimes assess capacity and make the determination, but it is usually about psychiatric intervention and issues that are within their area of clinical expertise, such as care and treatment, capacity assessment around the Mental Health Act 1983 and whether somebody is able to consent to their treatment. In the Bill, I am not absolutely clear whether the psychiatrist is considered to be a primary decision maker on whether somebody should be eligible based on capacity, or whether their role is to advise the decision maker, who would be the primary doctor or one of two doctors.

Should a psychiatrist be involved in every case? If there is a view that psychiatric disorders should be assessed for, and ideally diagnosed or ruled out, in every case, a psychiatrist might have a role. If they are seen as an expert support to the primary decision maker, that decision maker would need to decide whether a psychiatrist was needed in every case. We know from Oregon over the years that psychiatrists were involved very frequently at the beginning of the process, and now they are involved by request in around 3% of completed assisted dying cases. We do not have data on what the involvement is across all requests.

[Dr Opher]

Q Conveniently, my question follows on from that. On our first day of evidence, we had Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, saying that when you are assessing capacity, the vast majority either clearly have capacity or clearly do not, and there is a small section in the middle. Michael, would you say that a role of a GP would be to inform those definite yeses and definite noes, and then they would perhaps not have the skills for the intermediate ones? I am just suggesting that.

Dr Mulholland: As GPs, we can assess capacity. In this situation, the college’s position would be that we feel the GP should not be part of the assisted dying service, so we would see a standalone service that we can signpost our patients to. The GP role may go on to a different route afterwards, and it may be part of other things with palliative care and looking after the families. We think that some GPs may want to be involved and take that step, but we know from our membership surveys that we have had at least 40% of members in the past who would absolutely not want to have any part in that.

Similar to other services, such as termination of pregnancy, we think that the best option would probably be that the GP could signpost to an information service, such as something like what the BMA suggested the other day. They would not have to do anything more than that, and they would not withhold any option from the patient. We could discuss that these things exist, but we would not be doing that capacity assessment. Obviously, to give patients information about what they are going to, as you know, we would assess their capacity to take that information in, retain it and do the right thing with it for them. We would be doing that level of capacity assessment, but not further on in the process, where you are assessing whether a patient is able to make a final decision. I think Chris Whitty referred to the various levels of capacity. As the decision gets more difficult and complex, you want a greater understanding with the patient that they really know the implications of what is going on, and we just would not be doing that in general practice.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eighth sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Shastri-Hurst]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point—the Committee can see that I was an orthopaedic surgeon, not an endocrinologist. It is not necessarily a progressive condition; it is a condition that can be managed and maintained. It does not fall within the wording of the Bill. We are not talking about a condition that is inevitably progressive, and for which there is no treatment option available to pause, reverse or prevent its progression. We are talking about a relatively limited group of conditions that will inevitably lead to death when someone, for want of a less blunt phrase, has reached the end of the road in terms of their therapeutic treatment options.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Sarah Olney]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Jack Abbott]

I am grateful to the hon. Member; he has given way a number of times, and I am sure he wants to make some progress. To return to the scope of the debate—I am sure you will be delighted to hear that, Ms McVey—part of the rationale cited for making this change from “capacity” to “ability” is depression, and given what we are talking about, there is a very real possibility that someone will become depressed after diagnosis. In the hon. Member’s experience, are patients with a clinical diagnosis of depression currently deemed capable under the Mental Capacity Act of making potentially life-changing decisions about treatment or whatever it might be? Are there any scenarios in which he would offer or remove certain treatment because of their depressed state? What I am getting at is that there are a huge number of scales and considerations to factor in with depression, but does the Act allow us to look at those when it comes to depression?

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Francis]

I thank the Member in charge for her comments. That is the conversation we had when she invited me to join the Committee, and we will continue to have conversations as amendments come forward.

My concern is about some aspects of the Mental Capacity Act, which was not written for these scenarios, and the hon. Member for Richmond Park talked in particular about the statutory principles in it. I am not an expert on these issues, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud behind me is more of an expert on some of them. However, there is no obligation in the code of practice under the Act to consult carers involved in a person’s life. The code says:

“if it is practical and appropriate to do so, consult other people for their views about the person’s best interests”.

Therefore, given the way the Act and the code of practice are worded, there is no obligation in the scenarios I am discussing.

There is another issue I was going to raise before I took that intervention. Mencap does considerable hard work. At my local branch, there are many people whose parents are in their 70s and 80s and have cared for their child all their life. I am not being rude, but their child, who is in their 40s or 50s, does feel like a burden to their parents. They know the obligation their parents have to care for them for their whole life. I ask Members to consider what the Mental Capacity Act says: those adults are at a level of capacity to make decisions, but they have been supported in those decisions all their lives and do not—

[Jack Abbott]

We have spoken a lot today about further safeguards and provisions, beyond the Mental Capacity Act. However, I note that my hon. Friend has tabled amendment 339, which states that if a

“person has a learning disability or is autistic”

they

“must be provided with accessible information and given sufficient time to consider it”

and that, additionally, there must be a “supporter” or “advocate” with them. If that amendment was passed, would that satisfy some of my hon. Friend’s concerns about the Act?

[Daniel Francis]

I am hearing that that amendment will need some rewording, but it would address some of my concerns. I am working with Mencap, and further amendments will be tabled to later clauses of the Bill. I understand that one of our colleagues has also tabled amendments, which I welcome. However, I would still have concerns about the interpretation—and there are different interpretations—of the current code of practice when it comes to the involvement of carers and loved ones. Those concerns brought me to the place I came to on Second Reading. I did not seek to be the person standing here; indeed, a year ago, not only did I not believe that I would be a Member of Parliament, but I did not believe that I would be on this side of this argument. It is this particular point that has driven me to this position.

I will talk a little about evidence. The Law Society has a neutral position on the Bill, but it has said that, before the provisions become law, a comprehensive consultation should be undertaken to allow resident experts to share views on the appropriate definition of capacity for the purposes of the Bill. That is the position of the Law Society.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Ninth sitting)

Jack Abbott Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Naz Shah]

The hon. Member for East Wiltshire answered that question eloquently earlier. Although the outcome is the same, we are asking two different questions. The question is not about turning off and unplugging a machine; it is about whether someone will take drugs to end their life.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

To follow the basic premise of your argument—

[The Chair]

It is not my argument.

[Jack Abbott]

It is not your argument, Sir Roger; it is my hon. Friend’s argument. I apologise.

To follow the basic premise of my hon. Friend’s argument, she is saying that the Mental Capacity Act is not tried and tested for what we are discussing. However, by definition, neither is this amendment; if anything, it is even worse, because words such as “ability”, which we are discussing here, have absolutely no basis, as was admitted by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire. On that basic premise, my hon. Friend will not agree with any amendment that is tabled today, because none of them is tried and tested. Is that correct?

[Naz Shah]

My hon. Friend is not wrong, in so far as there can be two truths. There is a truth, for me, that the Mental Capacity Act does not deliver what we need it to deliver, and that is the concern we have heard from people who have given us evidence. We have not talked about the word “ability”—as hon. Members have pointed out, it is not set out in law—so there is a conversation to be had.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, the promoter of the Bill, clearly stated, this is about strengthening the Bill and bringing the best Bill to Parliament to give people a choice. That is what this is about.

[Danny Kruger]

The hon. Member is making such an important speech, and I am very grateful to her. This is a crucial discussion. The hon. Member for Ipswich suggested that the amendment would make things worse because it would apply a new test.

[Jack Abbott]

I was just following the argument.

[Danny Kruger]

I respect that. The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there would be a new test, but it is for a new situation. I want to alert the Committee to the purpose behind this amendment. I understand that we are in a slightly polarised discussion. The hon. Member for Bradford West and I both voted against the Bill on Second Reading, and it is not likely that we will ever support it. Nevertheless, I encourage hon. Members to consider that the amendment, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park, who is not opposed to assisted dying in principle, is genuinely trying to ensure that the Bill is as safe as it can be. All that has been proposed, as the hon. Member for Bradford West suggests, is a strengthening and a recognition of the importance of the principles of the Mental Capacity Act, without the—

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his correction. To clarify, I do not think anybody in this House disagrees in principle with the idea of not letting people suffer. I am very much about principle, and I came to this Committee very much in that spirit. When I was asked to join this Committee, I had to sleep on it, and I now realise why.

I am grateful for the interventions from my hon. Friends the Members for Rother Valley and for Ipswich. There are a couple of things that are important for us to understand. The Mental Capacity Act has not been tried in any of the other jurisdictions across the world on which we are basing this law, so we cannot make a comparison.

On the issue of whether it is either/or—whether it is the Mental Capacity Act or the word “ability”—the Secretary of State has the power to change that. If we are to be true to the spirit in which we have come to this debate to make the Bill as safe as possible, given that so many psychiatrists and experts have said that they are not convinced that the Mental Capacity Act is fit for purpose in this regard, surely it is incumbent on us to make that case.

[Jack Abbott]

My hon. Friend said that the Mental Capacity Act is not tried and tested, and I was challenging the premise that we should apply a concept that is not tried and tested in this or any other country. She is saying, “I can’t support the Mental Capacity Act in its current form because it is not tried and tested,” but, following that argument, she would presumably not support this amendment or any others because what they propose is also not tried and tested.

[Naz Shah]

This amendment is an attempt to have that conversation and to strengthen the concepts that we are debating. That is the whole point of the Committee. As my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley said, there is no point in having witnesses if we do not listen to what they say. This is what the witnesses said.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich makes a valid point. He asks whether I would, by that definition, support this amendment. I support it because it has led to a debate that we have had all morning, and that we are carrying on into the afternoon. As it is, the Bill does not give me confidence, whether it is due to the use of the Mental Capacity Act or the definition of “ability”. I feel that it needs to go much further, perhaps through the Secretary of State tabling another amendment at a later point.