Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)]

4. What assessment he has made of the availability of one-bedroom homes for single-person households to downsize to following the housing benefit changes due to take effect in April 2013.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

There are about 400,000 working age households on housing benefit in under-occupied social housing in Great Britain who require just one bedroom according to the size criteria. There are more than 1.1 million one-bedroom properties in the social rented sector in England and 730,000 one-bedroom properties in the private rented sector. The availability of housing varies from area to area and is constantly changing. During 2011-12, there were about 112,000 new lettings of one-bedroom properties in England in the social rented sector alone.

[Mr Holloway]

Will there be an improvement in the position of disabled children in Gravesham under the spare room subsidy?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. As the law stands, when a local authority agrees that a family needs an extra bedroom because their child’s disability means that they are unable to share, the family can be entitled to the spare room subsidy in respect of that extra bedroom. As with housing benefit claims, the determination of whether their disability requires them to have an extra bedroom is a matter for the local authority to decide with the help of DWP guidance and medical evidence. This week we will issue final guidance to local authorities on a number of areas, including this one, that will confirm the position that the judgment in Burnip, Trengove and Gorry applies to both the social rented sector and the private rented sector.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

One effect of the Secretary of State’s policy is that foster carers who have a spare bedroom and are waiting for a child to be placed must move to a smaller property without the space for them to foster. Is that what he intended?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, we have made discretionary payments of £5 million available for foster carers to ensure that that does not happen. The effect for foster carers, as we move forward, will be that they will not have to change the number of rooms or their property as they will be able to remain there and to foster. That is what the policy will be.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend and the Prime Minister have acknowledged that some of the spare rooms are not spare by acknowledging the need for discretionary housing payments. May I urge my right hon. Friend to reconsider whether some of those categories could and should be covered by genuine full exemptions?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As I have just explained, one of those categories—severely disabled children—is covered and the guidance coming out tomorrow will make it very clear that we will apply that judicial judgment across the board to children with severe disabilities who need that extra room as they are unable to share. I shall keep everything under review and I guarantee to my hon. Friend that we will ensure that the intent of the change is bound up in how it takes effect in so far as the spare rooms will be kept for those who need them. Honestly, however, when so many houses have spare rooms and when so many people are in queues to get housing, it would seem wrong to go on subsidising everybody to stay the same.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Is it fair to penalise someone who had wanted a one-bedroom property, had asked their local authority for a one-bedroom property, but instead was given a two or three-bedroom property because there simply were no one-bedroom properties available?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The purpose of the policy is to readjust the disparity that exists and that lay there under the previous Government. Local housing allowance for social tenants in the private rented sector does not and did not allow people to have spare rooms. In the social sector there are a large number of houses that people occupy without occupying all the rooms, so the purpose is to get that smoothed out. A number of councils have people waiting for housing, people in overcrowding, while others are subsidised to have spare rooms in housing that they do not need.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that there will be discretionary payments available to councils to meet particular needs? Does he agree that it is despicable for Opposition Members to be scaremongering unnecessarily and scaring people who are in a vulnerable position already?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Opposition know what they have been about over the past few weeks. They have deliberately set about trying to confuse people with their ridiculous title. They have tried to confuse people that they will all come under this change, when only those on housing benefit will be affected, and they also seemed to indicate to many others, such as pensioners, that they were not exempt. They are exempt.

[Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)]

Is it not the case that there just are not enough homes for people hit by the bedroom tax? The Government promised, and the Secretary of State said a moment ago, that pensioners would not be affected, but those on universal credit will be. Soldiers’ families will not get full housing benefit, but someone who is sent to prison could keep every penny. The Government are hitting pensioners but safeguarding prisoners, so how can it be right that if someone has worked hard all their life and loses their job, or if someone is serving their country or is disabled or a pensioner, they could lose out?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do wish the hon. Gentleman would get his facts right. Convicted prisoners are not exempt, so he is wrong. With respect, he does not know the difference between someone on remand and someone convicted—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) is noisier in heckling the Secretary of State than he was in heckling me at Essex university 30 years ago. He needs to calm down.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

With respect, Mr Speaker, the hon. Gentleman’s noise covers a complete lack of intelligence. That is what I would say. Let me bring something forward—[Interruption.] No, monkeys can jump around, but the noise they make is not necessarily relevant. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman about his own area. In Dudley, which I think he might know, the National Housing Federation estimates that there are 2,000 households under-occupying—in other words, with spare rooms. It also estimates that there are 1,500 families in overcrowded accommodation. In other words, if property is properly managed, we might get those who are overcrowded into decent-size accommodation. When will the Opposition moan about that?

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the likely effects of the under-occupancy penalty on households that include a disabled person.

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[Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)]

8. What recent representations he has received on the sharing of data on missing children in the Troubled Families programme.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

My Department plays a vital role in the cross-Government programme to turn around the lives of our most troubled families, a matter on which the hon. Lady has a long track record. Although I have not received any representations on sharing data on missing children, as we do not deal with them particularly, we are committed to building a clearer picture across Government of how many children are missing from care and where they go. We will begin piloting new arrangements shortly.

[Ann Coffey]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. As he will be aware, children going missing is a key indicator of being at risk of child sexual exploitation, and he will also know that information on children going missing from troubled families is under-reported. Will he ensure, together with his colleagues in other Departments, that data on missing and absent children is collected and shared properly, so that children from troubled families at risk of coming to harm can be identified, helped as early as possible, and not end up in the care system?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes. I congratulate the hon. Lady on focusing on this across all the Departments, as I am aware that she has asked this question to a number of Departments. She is absolutely right. We do need to co-ordinate much better between Departments. As she knows, this is an historical issue for different Governments. The Department for Education chairs the data working group, which includes the Home Office, the Serious Organised Crime Agency, and the Children’s Society. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is also involved. That should help to improve the collection and publication of data. The pilot will begin shortly to see that we sort this out. She is right that we must do more to improve data as part of the missing children strategy and make sure that we get it right.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

9. If he will bring forward proposals to restrict eligibility for housing benefit for people aged under 25.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

In June last year the Prime Minister commenced a debate on the cost to the taxpayer of meeting the £2 billion bill for automatic entitlement to housing benefit for people aged under 25. Although that is not current Government policy, I have had a number of representations on the issue—not from the Opposition, but from others.

[Mr Bone]

If the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State are in favour, I cannot understand why that is not Government policy. With so many under-25s who are hard-working having to stay at home with their parents, why are the Government spending £1.8 billion a year housing under-25s who are on benefits? I cannot see how that is fair.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right that the bill for under-25s in receipt of housing benefit is in the order of £2 billion a year. Some 370,000 under-25s claim housing benefit, and 42% of them are without children. However, the reality is that when we looked at that in the round prior to the spending review, it was agreed that it was not a priority area for the coalition. No doubt he will continue to campaign for it to be a priority area, and I am very happy to discuss the matter with him.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has decided to move forward with his benefit cap in four pilot areas in London. How much has he decided to compensate Haringey council for making it a guinea pig in that way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not believe that there is any need to compensate anybody. We have already told all those councils that they are not guinea pigs; they are actually getting very close support and advice. I think that it will be a tremendous success story. What they are doing is learning, along with us, about any issues that might arise, and we have already said very clearly that we will support them through any extra costs and expenses. The right hon. Gentleman’s party has to recognise that the reality is that the cap is right. The public support it because they are tired of seeing people getting more on benefits than those who are in work, so setting the cap is right. He needs to ask why his party keeps voting against it.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues are delighted that that proposal did not become Government policy and will happily keep making representations on it. Although it would be wonderful if all under-25s had a loving and stable family to live with, does the Secretary of State accept that that is simply not the case? Will he meet the YMCA to understand the realities facing many under-25s and continue to provide them with the support they need to have somewhere to live?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes, I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend and any group of people, such as the YMCA, he wishes to bring to me. I simply say this: we have a significant problem, because we inherited a welfare budget approaching £200 billion that had risen out of control under the previous Government. He is fully aware that we have to reform it both to get people back to work and to ensure that we get the cost under control. Those are all areas we have looked at, but in those discussions we decided that, in the round, it was not a priority.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

On Friday morning I met a 19-year-old autistic young women whose family home, which is rented from the council, with housing benefit, has been adapted at public expense, but now they are very worried because they are deemed to have one bedroom too many. Surely the bedroom tax should not apply when a council house has been specifically adapted for the occupants at public expense.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that that is the point of discretionary housing payments—[Interruption.] Opposition Members can groan, but we have put more money into discretionary payments to sort these things out than they ever did when they brought these in. The reality is that there is money for them to do just that. I remind him that the National Housing Federation has estimated that in his area of Newham some 3,000 people are under-occupying and some 5,000 are overcrowded. Perhaps he would like to take his own side to task for never doing a thing for those struggling in overcrowded accommodation.

[Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab)]

10. What steps he is taking to tackle long-term unemployment.

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[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

15. What arrangements his Department is making for benefit payments to people who are unable to receive them through a bank or building society account.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

People who are unable to receive benefit payments through a bank or building society account are paid under the new simple payment. The service is easily accessible and is available free of charge and over the counter at more than 10,000 PayPoint outlets across the UK. The phased roll-out of simple payment began in October 2012 and we are closely monitoring the service to ensure that people can access their payments.

[Mark Pawsey]

I recently met a constituent of mine who wishes to receive his pension payment in cash but has had some difficulty in doing so since the transition from cheques to simple payment. What support is available for people such as my constituent?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The contract is working very well across the board at the moment. About 99% of all claimants are getting their money as required at the right time, and 95% are within 1 mile of outlets, or within 5 miles in rural areas. It is, therefore, better than the previous system and it is also cheaper. The last cheque system cost £30 million and was defrauded to the cost of about £5 million; this costs about £7 million.

Immediate responsibility for the individual mentioned by my hon. Friend lies with PayPoint and the bank. They have a responsibility to ensure that cash is available at every location. We take them to task over that and they will have to make restitution.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

17. What plans he has to support disabled entrepreneurs.

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[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

18. What plans he has to tackle the potential for digital exclusion under his plans for universal credit; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

It is important to recognise that 80% of existing benefit claimants already use the internet. For the minority who do not, we are helping them move online by, for example, working with digital champions, testing the new universal credit system with more than 6,200 real claimants to date, and developing a local support framework to ensure bespoke services. Even before universal credit is introduced, we are seeing the effect of this change.

[Michael Fabricant]

My right hon. Friend gives a good indication of the progress being made, but he will know that a number of people who are applying for universal credit and, indeed, other benefits will not have access to a computer, technical skills or even broadband. What sort of support is he giving them?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have put—and will continue to do so—large numbers of internet access devices in jobcentres, so people will automatically get help and support when they go in. We are talking and working with local authorities to ensure that people will be able to gain immediate access through libraries and all other local authority outlets. We are also working with individuals to make sure that those who have computers at home fully understand how to use the system. The truth is that this will be helpful. The Opposition seem to occasionally miss the fact that 92% of advertised vacancies require basic IT skills and that if people do not have the ability to go on a computer, they cannot apply for the job.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Ruffley. Not here.

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[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I welcome the recent introduction of mandation to universal jobmatch, which means that Jobcentre Plus advisers can mandate jobseekers to use the new service to help them find work and require them to demonstrate their progress. More than 2 million jobseekers are now registered, which is twice the number when I last updated the House. That shows just how quickly the system is revolutionising how jobseekers look for work.

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[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

May I start by thanking the Secretary of State for briefing me and my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) on his plans for urgent legislation, about which his Department has commented in The Daily Telegraph this morning? Both he and I believe that sanctions are vital to give back-to-work programmes their bite. However, when he signed off the 2011 regulations that created sanctions for the Work programme, why did he not check that they were legally bullet proof?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that the advice that we received made it very clear that the regulations would survive a challenge, and that was the view that we took. As he knows, the High Court upheld our position. It was the Court of Appeal that decided, on quite a technical line, to change that position. The position on human rights was upheld, as was the main point of our direction of travel.

[Mr Byrne]

I do not think that it is a technical challenge when three Court of Appeal judges unanimously quash the 2011 regulations because they are not in line with the law. That mistake puts in jeopardy about £100 million of sanctions that have been issued. I did not think that the Work programme could get any worse, but it has. We will support wise and sensible legislation that will fix the problem, but will the Secretary of State take personal responsibility and apologise for this mess, which may cost twice as much as the west coast main line fiasco?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that when Ministers make regulations, they take the fullest advice possible. That advice came to us; it was checked and it said that the regulations were fine. The High Court upheld them. It was the Appeal Court that decided that an element of that was not correct.

I do not wish to make this a political issue, and I take full responsibility for everything that goes on in my Department. I accept that we wish we were not in this position, but if the right hon. Gentleman supports the idea that people who have been mandated to do work, should take jobs and do work experience once they have volunteered without messing around otherwise they lose their benefit, I hope that we can look forward to his supporting the legislation that will ensure that we do not have to pay out money against a judgment that we never anticipated.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

T4. Is the Secretary of State aware that Conservative Members support his courage and his battles in trying to reduce the crippling burden of the social security budget? In particular, may I commend his quiet courtesy this weekend in reminding the Archbishop of Canterbury that trapping people in dependency is not necessarily a Christian response? What the Secretary of State is doing is a good and positive way of making work pay.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have no issue whatever with the Church of England and the bishops saying whatever they believe. It is right and proper that they should argue with us and put pressure on us on a variety of issues. However, I do not agree that the way to get children out of poverty is to keep transferring more and more money to keeping people out of work. The reality is that we are having to reform a system that became completely out of control under the last Government and get in place a system that gets people back to work, because being in work is how people get their children out of poverty.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

T2. Mandatory reconsideration after employment and support allowance is refused and when somebody wants to appeal can lead to people being without either ESA or jobseeker’s allowance. Will the Minister ensure that a short time limit is set on reconsiderations so that people are not left without any income?

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[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

T5. Local housing associations in my area are deeply concerned about their ability to provide services as a result of this year’s welfare changes. What assessment will the Secretary of State make of their credit ratings, both this year and next? Does he expect them to go down the way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The best thing for me to do is to ensure that I write to the hon. Lady properly and place the reply in the Library of the House.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

T7. Last week we discussed in the House the treatment of women across the world. To deliver equality and fairness of treatment in the United Kingdom, we must ensure equal access to work and remuneration. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important to make a continuing assessment of the number of women in work?

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

T9. Why is the Secretary of State disregarding research by the National Housing Federation which shows that the discretionary fund to provide help with the bedroom tax is £100 million short of what is required?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We are not. We listen to councils and everybody else who talks to us about these things, and ensure that we adjust accordingly. In reality, more than £280 million is going in discretionary payments direct to councils over two years to resolve these issues. That is more than ever before and I believe it is enough. We are asking councils to make sensible judgments that benefit the maximum number of people—tenants and those on housing benefit—in their areas.

[Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

T8. What assessment has the Minister made of the support available to disabled people through the Access to Work programme?

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[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

This afternoon I received a message in my inbox that was sent to all MPs and marked “importance: high”. It said that one-bedroom apartments, located in the most convenient and sought-after positions in the heart of St James’s, and including a spacious reception, double bedroom and fitted kitchen, were advertised at £390 per week although the landlord would take an offer to fall-in with the parliamentary allowance. Would the Secretary of State advise one of my Caernarfon constituents, currently luxuriating in a two-bedroom flat, to apply?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

No, I would not, and I hope that nobody else in the Chamber would be able to apply either—otherwise we may find out exactly what they are worth. The changes we are making with the spare room subsidy are to get rid of the subsidy that ordinary taxpayers are paying for people to under-occupy houses while many others live in overcrowded accommodation.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

There is significant concern across the country about the likelihood of welfare dependency as a result of immigration from Romania and Bulgaria from January 2014. Will the Minister look urgently at the habitual residence test within the context of the free movement directive and ensure that such issues are addressed in good time?

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[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Although the Labour party thinks that the benefit cap is too low, the majority of my constituents think it is far too high. May I urge the Secretary of State to ignore the left-wing bishops, who probably do not even speak for the majority of people who go to church each week, let alone the vast majority of the British people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I listen to everybody who gives me advice although I do not necessarily follow it. The Government are doing the right thing in bringing in a benefit cap, and for the first time ever people on low and average earnings will realise that at last those on benefits will not be paid more through their taxes than they themselves earn.

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

I met the mother of Hayden, a three-year old boy in my constituency, who has just received a letter stating that she must now pay the bedroom tax. Hayden has sleep difficulties and often has disturbed nights. Should he be forced to share a room with his four-year-old sister who will now also be disturbed, or will it all be okay because there is a tiny amount of discretionary funding?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do wonder that the Labour party, which sat in government for 13 years, never once raised the issue of people living in overcrowded accommodation, and never once seemed to care that huge numbers of people were on the waiting list. Nevertheless, Labour Members bleat about those who are under-occupying and are being subsidised by poorer people who cannot find accommodation.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

The Pensions Minister will have seen the recent press coverage about the high margins generated by annuity providers. That comes as no surprise given the complete market failure that has occurred in large parts of the private pension industry. Will he consider imposing a uniform product structure—as has been done in energy—and will he enforce legally the open market option?

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

A constituent I met on Saturday is a divorced lone parent who works hard for a low income, and his children stay with him on three evenings a week. Why does the Secretary of State believe that such a hard-working individual should lose £12 a week under his hateful bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Again, another hon. Member who does not know the difference between a subsidy and a tax. The reality is that those who do not occupy all the rooms in social housing are being subsidised by many of those who live in overcrowded accommodation. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman—Opposition Members do not like to be reminded—that under local housing allowance for the private social rented sector, which was introduced by the previous Labour Government, people were not allowed to occupy houses that had spare bedrooms.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

The Government’s under-occupancy policy relies on people being able to move into appropriately-sized housing, but in specific parts of the country that is very hard to achieve. Does the Secretary of State agree that no benefit reduction should take place until people have at least been offered somewhere appropriately sized and located? Will he make sure that there is enough discretionary housing budget for councils to ensure that that is the case?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree, particularly with the last part of the question. We have set aside £280 million over two years for councils to be able to negotiate and work out with their tenants the best and most amenable way to go. My hon. Friend’s question is constructive, in sharp contrast to the Opposition. All they can do is moan about a policy, but in 13 years they did nothing about overcrowding, with the lowest level of house building since the 1920s.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

When the bedroom tax is introduced in my constituency, some people, who will be unable to move because properties are not available, will be left with £18 a week to live on. During the recess, I tried that to see what it would be like. I have had a lot of messages from members of the public asking me one question: will the Secretary of State try for a week to live on £18?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

When we made changes to local housing allowance, the hon. Lady and others prophesised that hundreds of thousands of people would be made homeless—they went up and down the country scaring everybody. The figures now show that our homeless figures are lower than the peak under the previous Labour Government.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—