Oral Answers to Questions

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Wednesday 21st May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

1. If he will take steps to ensure that compensation is not paid to people detained using interim custody orders during the troubles in Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

This issue arose following the Supreme Court judgment in 2020, which found certain custody orders to be unlawful. The amendment to the legacy Act to try to deal with that has also been found unlawful by the Northern Ireland courts, so the Government are carefully exploring how to lawfully address this complex issue, alongside our commitment to implement legacy mechanisms that are fully compliant with human rights. I will, of course, keep the House updated.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Will the Secretary of State withhold the remedial order until he is certain that he can deliver the Prime Minister’s pledge to prevent Gerry Adams from receiving compensation?

[Hilary Benn]

The Government are currently considering the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the representations made to it.

[Mr Paul Foster (South Ribble) (Lab)]

I am a veteran, as many Members know, and lots of my colleagues served in Northern Ireland. I was based in a barracks in Germany that was attacked by terrorists, so I get it, but the last Government’s legacy Act offered a path to immunity for those who committed the most appalling terrorist crimes. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is no surprise that the legislation was so widely opposed and has been found to be unlawful?

[Hilary Benn]

I thank my hon. Friend for his service in our armed forces, alongside all those who served. He is absolutely right about the flawed piece of legislation that this Government inherited, and we are working hard to put that right.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

In his opening remarks, the Secretary of State left out one crucial detail: the truth is that the last Government did legislate with cross-party support to prevent people like Gerry Adams from receiving taxpayer-funded compensation. The High Court in Northern Ireland ruled that that was incompatible with the European convention on human rights, and the Conservative Government then appealed that judgment. When the Labour party came to power last summer, it dropped that appeal. Will the Secretary of State please set out why the Government decided to drop that appeal?

[Hilary Benn]

As I told the House a moment ago, the courts found that clauses 46 and 47 were unlawful. Although the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal was not obviously asked to rule on that, because we had withdrawn the appeal, it did comment unfavourably on those provisions. We supported clauses 46 and 47 at the time, but they have not worked, and that is why we have to find an alternative way forward. I just say to the House that the main issue here is the Carltona principle, which the last Government argued meant it was lawful for junior Ministers to sign ICOs. The amendment to try to deal with that failed, and we need to find another way of reaffirming that principle. That is at the heart of this case.

[Alex Burghart]

The whole House will have heard the Secretary of State not give a reason why the Government did not continue the appeal. Government lawyers told the last Government that there were grounds for appeal. Policy Exchange, in a report in January written by Professor Richard Ekins and Sir Stephen Laws, said that the High Court had almost certainly been “mistaken” in its judgment and that there were strong grounds for an appeal. Why did the Government drop it, and why have the Government not yet brought forward their own legislation to clear this mess up once and for all?

[Hilary Benn]

The Supreme Court judgment was in 2020, and the last Government could not find a legal solution in almost three years. I am committed to finding one, and I promise that I will update the House when we have found it.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

2. What discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on funding for an addiction treatment centre in Derry, in the context of the New Decade, New Approach agreement, published on 9 January 2020.

--- Later in debate ---

[Katrina Murray (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch) (Lab)]

3. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of economic growth in Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

Economic growth is this Government’s priority, and our industrial strategy is central to that. It will be published in June, and will support the Executive’s plans for growth. The latest figures from the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency show that Northern Ireland experienced stronger growth than the United Kingdom as a whole last year.

[Katrina Murray]

Northern Ireland has a long and proud history of advanced engineering industries. What discussions has my right hon. Friend had with the Ministry of Defence to ensure that companies such as Spirit AeroSystems have access to the Government’s increased investment in defence?

[Hilary Benn]

I am sure that my hon. Friend, and the whole House, welcomes the recently announced increase in defence expenditure. Northern Ireland has a strong and significant defence sector, and Spirit is part of that. The Secretary of State for Defence has made it very clear that he wants the increased expenditure to result in more jobs and more orders for British companies.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Economic growth will be supported by physical connectivity. One example is the new Grand Central station in Belfast, where there is some controversy over Irish language signage. The Secretary of State has commented that there are

“so many more important things”

in which to be involved, but, setting that view to one side, can he confirm that if there were no Executive at Stormont, he, as Secretary of State, would be in a position to make decisions on that and other equally important issues?

[Hilary Benn]

The new Grand Central station is a magnificent piece of infrastructure, and I recommend any Members who have not yet had a chance to visit it to do so. I am not contemplating for one second that there will not be an Executive in place. Perhaps the single most important contribution that the Executive can make to continued economic growth in Northern Ireland is to stay in place and give confidence to those whom we are all working hard to encourage to come and invest in Northern Ireland’s economic future.

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)]

I regularly receive representations from businesses, some of our biggest employers, who are frustrated by the apprenticeship levy. They pay in like businesses in Britain, but cannot access the fund to reinvest in skills and fix our broken skills pipeline. Does the Secretary of State agree that there is merit in devolving this to the Assembly as part of a package of measures to encourage the Executive to take responsibility and control, to be ambitious for the local economy, and to drive growth?

[Hilary Benn]

There is a great deal that the Executive can do to help promote economic growth. I have just given one example, and investing in and supporting the development of skills is another. Northern Ireland has the lowest unemployment in the United Kingdom, but it also has a higher rate of worklessness, and getting more people back into work and giving them the skills that will enable them to take part in the economy will help to boost growth.

[Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)]

Economic growth has been severely damaged as a result of the Northern Ireland protocol and the Windsor framework. The new EU arrangement will enable animals and food to travel unfettered between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Why was manufacturing not included in that arrangement, and when will the customs process be removed?

[Hilary Benn]

The agreement on the application of sanitary and phytosanitary measures that was reached with the European Union on Monday is extremely significant. As the hon. Member will know, it has been widely welcomed by businesses throughout Northern Ireland, including supermarkets, retailers and farmers, because of the assistance it will give in getting rid of many of the elements associated with the SPS arrangement. It is the fruition of this Government’s determination, when we came into office, to negotiate a closer relationship with the EU, which is exactly what we have done.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)]

As we have just heard, since last we met in this place for Northern Ireland questions, we have had the announcement of the UK-EU SPS agreement. That comes as a great reassurance to many Northern Irish agrifood retailers, but the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry has cautioned that key trade barriers remain, particularly around broader regulatory divergence across supply chains and ongoing customs issues under the Windsor framework. In the Secretary of State’s opinion, how will the latest arrangements ease east-west trade in practice? What specific customs reform does he intend to pursue to further cut red tape and unlock the full potential of dual-market access and latent economic growth in Northern Ireland?

[Hilary Benn]

On customs, in addition to the SPS deal, the significantly reduced Windsor framework customs arrangements, introduced on 1 May, will of course remain in place, because the UK is not in the EU customs union and we have no intention of joining it. It is clear from the text of the agreement what will be removed and that customs information will remain for SPS goods, but we are working hard to make life easier and introduced changes on 1 May. Reducing the number of lines of information that need to be provided from 75 to 21 is a very good example of how we are working with the EU to make it easier for goods to flow.

[David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)]

4. What steps he is taking to ensure adequate legal protections for veterans who served in Northern Ireland during the troubles.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The veterans who served in Operation Banner did so with distinction in very difficult circumstances, and ultimately helped to bring about the peace that Northern Ireland now enjoys. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude. Together with the Defence Secretary and Minister for Veterans, I am currently considering measures for our legacy legislation to ensure better protections for elderly veterans.

[David Davis]

Seven hundred and twenty-two of our soldiers were killed by paramilitary murderers during the troubles. Not one of those deaths will be revisited. Because of the current circumstances, however, hundreds of brave men—who, as the Secretary of State says, served their country with honour, patriotism and integrity—face a sword of Damocles of politically motivated trials hanging over them. I can think of no better example of two-tier justice. Whatever the Government do, they have to take that away, and do so in a way that cannot be circumvented by clever, politically motivated lawyers. Will he give the House an undertaking that he will do that?

[Hilary Benn]

I agree with what the former Defence Secretary said in 2019. He said:

“The British Army uphold British values, which is the rule of law, and that’s what we stand for.”

I advise the right hon. Gentleman to be a little bit careful about using the phrase “politically motivated” prosecutions—I hope I have correctly quoted him. Let us be clear: decisions about any prosecutions, in any cases, are taken by the independent Public Prosecution Service, which is entirely separate from the Executive.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)]

I strongly support the petition brought forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis). As of this morning, it has more than 90,000 signatures, showing the strength of public feeling on this issue. Almost a year ago, the Labour party published its manifesto, saying that it would scrap the legacy Act, yet it has still presented no alternative. Victims are in limbo, and veterans are in limbo. The last Labour Government handed out letters of comfort for terrorists, but nothing for elderly veterans. When will the Secretary of State finally show the House his plans, and how can veterans have confidence that they will get the protection they deserve?

[Hilary Benn]

We have begun the process of repealing and replacing the legacy Act in the proposed draft remedial order. It will deal with the conditional immunity that was struck down by the courts, and which we came into office committed to remove because it did not command support across Northern Ireland, as it would have given immunity to terrorists, including those who killed the soldiers to whom the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis) referred earlier. I intend to bring forward legislation to complete that process when parliamentary time allows, because this Government inherited a completely hopeless piece of legislation, which has been found time and again to be incompatible with our international obligations.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the leader of the DUP.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State will know that, as part of a Northern Ireland Affairs Committee inquiry, we have been engaging with victims across Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom to assist them in their quest for some personal closure, truth and justice on legacy. Veterans, like many other victims, have indicated to us that while they are listened to, they have not been heard. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he intends to announce his proposals on legacy in parallel with the Irish Government before the summer recess?

[Hilary Benn]

I will inform the House of proposals in due course. I am in discussions with the Irish Government, and that is well known publicly. The reason the legacy Act resulted in so much trouble and difficulty, and produced so much incompatibility with our international obligations, is that the last Government, having negotiated the Stormont House agreement with the parties and the Irish Government, decided to perform a 180° turn and put in legislation that did not command support in Northern Ireland. I want to make progress on this as quickly as possible, and I am continuing to talk to all the parties about doing so.

[Gavin Robinson]

I caution the Secretary of State that he should be adhering to the three-stranded approach, and where it is appropriate to talk to the Irish Government, it should be within that context. He should not be subjugating our responsibilities on legacy, but he should not be letting the Irish Government get away with their obfuscation on this issue either.

One of the most startling things the Committee experienced last week was a victim who asked us collectively whether we were aware of Government plans to secure a ceasefire from dissident republicans that, in return, would lead to the release of dissident republican prisoners. Can I ask the Secretary of State, in all good conscience, to recognise that dissident republicans are a cancer in Northern Ireland, and more of them should be in jail? Will he rule out the suggestion that was brought to us as a Committee?

[Hilary Benn]

I can say directly to the right hon. Gentleman: there are no such plans.

[Shockat Adam (Leicester South) (Ind)]

5. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on lessons learned from the Good Friday agreement.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The Good Friday agreement has brought peace, security and a better life to the people of Northern Ireland. It remains an unparalleled achievement almost 30 years on from its signing, and I pay tribute to all those involved in its creation for their political courage, bravery and willingness to compromise.

[Shockat Adam]

I recently visited the west bank and the Occupied Palestinian Territories with the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George). There we saw a systematic process of one community being taken over by another, with the Israeli Government building walls and fences to protect the settler community. The Secretary of State is of course aware of the great results Mo Mowlam achieved in securing peace in Northern Ireland following a process of engagement with both sides—a process that resulted in walls and fences being broken down, and a mutual respect and a common peace being achieved. Will the Government commit to using the lessons of Mo Mowlam and the Northern Ireland peace process to help secure a lasting peace in the middle east?

[Hilary Benn]

I share with the hon. Member and the whole House a wish to see lasting peace in the middle east, and what is happening at the moment is appalling and intolerable. However, I think the most important lesson from the Good Friday agreement was the courageous political leadership shown by the parties to the conflict—people such as John Hume and David Trimble—and I have to say that, tragically, that same courageous political leadership is absent in the middle east.

[Dr Lauren Sullivan (Gravesham) (Lab)]

6. What steps he is taking to support the Northern Ireland Executive in tackling violence against women and girls.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of the US-UK economic prosperity deal on Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The trade deal with the USA, together with the agreements with the EU and India, are very significant. Northern Ireland exporters, including those exporting services, technology and farming goods, will benefit in the same way as those in other parts of the UK. In particular, the US deal is a major opportunity for Northern Ireland farmers to sell their high-quality beef to a US market of over 300 million people.

[Dr Evans]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his answer, but there seem to be wildly different interpretations of what the deal means for Northern Ireland. Will he clarify what it means for imports and exports in the light of the impact of EU tariffs? Was that explicitly discussed at the EU-UK summit?

[Hilary Benn]

The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that EU retaliatory tariffs directed at the USA would have an impact in Northern Ireland, because of its dual-market access. I can write to him with further details of how precisely that would work. It depends partly on whether there is less or more than a 3% difference between the tariff in the EU and the tariff that applies in the UK.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

8. What steps he has taken to strengthen the Union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The Union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which we will discuss next month at the East-West Council, remains strong. The deal with the EU will enable the smooth flow of agrifood and plants within the UK’s internal market. That is why it has been overwhelmingly welcomed by businesses.

[Jim Allister]

In referring to the deal with the EU, what the Secretary of State ignores, of course, is that Northern Ireland continues to be under a foreign customs code, which means that there are still customs checks on all goods, including agriculture goods, moving within the United Kingdom. Ideologically and personally, is he committed to the Union? I am not asking if he is committed to the consent principle; any separatist can accept that. Is he personally and ideologically a Unionist?

[Hilary Benn]

The Government and I support the Union, and I also support the Good Friday agreement. I point out to the hon. and learned Gentleman that when it comes to customs arrangements, there are no mandatory checks. There are checks that apply generally on the basis of risk and intelligence.

[Greg Smith (Mid Buckinghamshire) (Con)]

9. What steps he is taking to replace the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

The Government have begun the process of repealing and replacing the previous Government’s legacy Act. The draft remedial order in Parliament represents the first step. The Government will address the other issues arising from several court findings of incompatibility in primary legislation.

[Greg Smith]

I listened carefully to the answers the Secretary of State gave just now to the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis). The Secretary of State must understand the severe anxiety, particularly for our veterans, caused by not having a timescale on this matter. Will he at least commit to putting in place a deadline? Will he also take seriously the findings of the Policy Exchange report?

[Hilary Benn]

I listen carefully to all the representations that are made to me, including in that report, which I have read. I am committed to introducing legislation as soon as possible, although that is subject to the availability of parliamentary time. This Government came into office absolutely committed to remedying the absolute failure of the Legacy Act passed by the previous Government.