Ukraine

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Thursday 27th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Defence Secretary to make a statement on the war in Ukraine.

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the question. On Friday, the Defence Secretary met his counterparts at Ramstein air base for the 11th meeting of the Ukraine defence contact group. The focus was on accelerating the delivery of military aid packages for Ukraine as they plan to expel Russian forces from illegally occupied Ukrainian territory. The message from Ramstein was clear: international support for Ukraine is growing. More countries than ever are attending; donations are increasing, and their delivery is accelerating.

We are one of the leading providers of military support for Ukraine and were the first country to donate modern main battle tanks. We have now completed delivery of this matériel and training package, which included a squadron of Challenger 2 tanks, along with their ammunition, spares, and armoured recovery vehicles; AS-90 self-propelled guns, sufficient to support two brigades with close support artillery; more than 150 armoured and protected vehicles; and hundreds more of the most urgently needed missiles, including for air defence.

The UK-led international fund for Ukraine encourages donations from around the world and stimulates industrial supply of cutting-edge technologies for Ukraine’s most vital battlefield requirements. The first bidding round raised £520 million-worth of donations, receiving 1,500 expressions of interest from suppliers across 40 countries. The second bidding round opened on 11 April, and the UK is calling for further national donations and is calling on industry to provide its most innovative technologies, especially for air defence.

A total of 14,000 Ukrainian recruits have now returned from the UK to defend their homeland, trained and equipped for operations, including trench clearance, battlefield first aid, crucial law of armed conflict awareness, patrol tactics and rural environment training. In all its dimensions, the higher quality of training for Ukrainian soldiers provided by the UK armed forces and their counterparts from nine other nations has proven battle-winning against Russian forces. The UK will develop the training provided according to Ukraine’s requirements, including the extension to pilots, sailors and marines. It is now expected to reach 20,000 trained recruits this year.

[Mr Speaker]

Ahem.

[Dr Murrison]

The UK will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes, and will spend another £2.3 billion on military support for Ukraine this year. By making that commitment, we will strengthen Ukraine’s position in negotiations, guard its long-term sovereignty and enable Ukraine to deter by denial. The UK people can be proud of their support. We are leading in Europe in providing brave Ukrainians with the training, equipment and ammunition urgently needed to ensure that they prevail.

[Mr Speaker]

Excellent. I do not have a bad chest; if we can stick to three minutes, that is always helpful.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

All eyes are on Sudan. We want British nationals to get out during the ceasefire while they can. We pay tribute to the UK armed forces and to Foreign Office and Border Force staff for leading the evacuation. That is why this urgent question is so important: the Government have to be able to do more than one thing at once. The Defence Secretary has 60,000 MOD staff, but I am concerned that the momentum behind our military help is faltering and that our UK commitment to Ukraine is flagging.

The Defence Secretary has made no statements on Ukraine since January. No new weapons have been pledged to Ukraine since February. There has been no 2023 action plan for Ukraine, which was first promised last August. No priorities have been set for the Ukraine recovery conference in London in June. The Prime Minister said in February that:

“The United Kingdom will be the first country to provide Ukraine with longer-range weapons.”

What and when? Like the Minister, the Defence Secretary said on Friday that military aid “delivery is accelerating”. How and what? The UK-led international fund for Ukraine, which the Minister mentioned, was launched last August, but only one contract has been signed so far. Why? The International Criminal Court has put out an arrest warrant for Putin. Where is the UK support for the special tribunal? Some 5,000 Ukrainians were registered homeless last month. Who is sorting this out?

The Minister knows that the Government have had and will continue to have Labour’s fullest support for military aid to Ukraine and for reinforcing NATO allies. We welcomed the £2 billion in the spring Budget for stockpiles, but with no new money for anything else except nuclear, how will the defence Command Paper in June deal with inflation, fill capacity gaps and respond to the increasing threats? Finally, the British public are strongly behind Ukraine. They want to know that the Government are not weakening in their resolve to support Ukraine, confront Russian aggression and pursue Putin for his war crimes.

[Dr Murrison]

I will do my best to take note of your bad throat, Mr Speaker, and to keep my remarks brief.

I think that the right hon. Gentleman is being just a little unfair. I am sure that President Zelensky would feel the same way—he certainly did when he came here in February to sign the London accord. It is pretty clear that the UK is leading in Europe. As I said in my opening remarks, the Ukraine recovery conference in June proves that. The UK has been instrumental in this process. We led the instigation of the international fund for Ukraine, and £520 million, of which £300 million has been expended, is really quite an achievement. I think the right hon. Gentleman knows full well, because he is smiling at me, that the UK has been in the van of this. I am proud of the UK people in supporting brave and courageous Ukrainians in their fight against Putin’s aggression.

The right hon. Gentleman asked me about war crimes and he is right to do so. He will know that the atrocity crimes advisory group, which again is heavily influenced by the UK, includes input from, for example, the Metropolitan police’s war crimes unit. In every dimension in this country, we are taking a lead. I appreciate his need to attack the Government in this and other areas, but in the specifics of this—in our leadership in Europe and in Ukraine—the UK is more than playing its part. We are leaders. I am really proud of that, and the British people should be too.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the right hon. and gallant Gentleman.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

What estimate has the Minister made of the continuing ability of Ukraine to deny air superiority to Russia?

[Dr Murrison]

Ukraine continues to prevail in all dimensions of this conflict. My right hon. Friend will be aware that we have been active, and the international fund that I just referred to is certainly active, in providing air defence. That is crucial in winning this for Ukraine, and we will continue to do so.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Scottish National party spokes- person.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

The current situation in Bakhmut is dire, with Russian forces pounding the town with rockets, mortars, attack drones and phosphorous incendiary bombs, which are banned under the Geneva convention. Russian forces have occupied the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant since last month, and they are now taking up positions on the roofs of reactor buildings. That raises the concern of damage in future fighting and the threat to the population should that occur. The Wagner mercenary group has admitted to killing hundreds of people who were sheltering in a basement, including 40 children.

What are the UK Government doing to get defensive weapons, in particular ammunition, to Bakhmut as soon as possible? Are the UK Government co-ordinating with producers and European allies with regard to the provision of iodine tablets and radiation treatment? Will the Government step up further the sanctions against the despicable Wagner mercenary group?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right, and I share her sentiments entirely. There is no excuse for nuclear blackmail at Zaporizhzhia or anywhere else. I am appalled by the war of attrition in Bakhmut. It is a most appalling slur on the continent that we call home, and it will be an enduring slur on Putin’s Russia. In terms of protection, I am pleased to say that the International Atomic Energy Agency is monitoring the situation in Ukraine, and the UK obviously stands ready to be of assistance in any way that it can be.

[Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)]

I, too, am surprised at the tone taken by the shadow Secretary of State in this urgent question. The support we have continued to give Ukraine is a great source of pride. Will the Minister say what efforts we are making to replenish our own stocks of weapons? Our generosity has come at a cost, and it is important that Britain continues to keep its own arms ready for any eventuality.

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely correct. He will have noted the £5 billion in the integrated review refresh and the spring Budget, some of which will be used for the purpose he has described. However, let us be clear: the munitions we are expending in Ukraine are doing what munitions are meant to do, which is to defend a democratic country that has been the subject of the most appalling aggression against its territorial integrity, against international humanitarian law and every recognisable tenet of international law. I make no apology for using our munitions in that way.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State is absolutely right that it is unacceptable that we have not had a statement since January. In order to hold the Government to account, which is our job, we need to have statements on a regular basis. This is not critical of the Government, in the sense that they have been doing quite a lot to support Ukraine, and this Parliament has been very strong in its support for that. However, we are here to hold the Government to account.

My specific question to the Minister concerns munitions. What is the current situation in terms of stockpiles? I know he will not be able to give actual figures—I get that—but, having identified problems earlier this year, where are we now in being able to build up the stockpiles of munitions not only to supply Ukraine, but to keep our own stockpiles?

[Dr Murrison]

Plainly, we have to concentrate on the conflict before us, and that is what we are doing in providing munitions to assist Ukraine. The hon. Gentleman will have noted in my comments to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher) the reference to the IRR and the spring Budget, which provided a substantial uplift to Treasury funding to enable the UK to replenish what has been expended. However, I do not think that should diminish in any way our support and donations to Ukraine. That would be very foolish and against our interests, not to mention the interests of our brave Ukrainian friends.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for giving the House an update on the position in Ukraine. Clearly, we are going to be involved in providing more and more sophisticated weaponry and support to the Ukrainians. What role will our armed forces play in both this country and Ukraine in delivering those munitions and armaments, and will we get involved in an escalation of the war with Russia?

[Dr Murrison]

I hope there will not be an escalation in the war between Ukraine and Russia. The whole point is that ultimately we have to come to a diplomatic settlement, and I would urge all parties to dial this down. However, it is about not just munitions and armaments, but training. I have seen for myself our training efforts. Those are vital, as I referred to in my remarks, and will be ongoing. We will have trained 20,000 Ukrainians by the end of this year—a quite extraordinary effort. There is no point in having matériel without the training that goes with it.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

It will take at least a decade to replenish our depleted ammunition stockpiles, so, besides the £2 billion, what actual action has come from the stockpile review ordered by the Prime Minister back in February, and where on earth is the action plan to grow our defence industrial capacity?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Murrison]

Negotiations with our defence partners are ongoing. This conflict is—what?—14 months old. The industry can move at pace, and I pay tribute to the rapidity with which it has provided armaments through the co-ordination cell in Poland and the UK-led international fund. I think the hon. Lady should reflect on how fast that has been put together and its effectiveness in delivering what Ukraine wants to have. This is a Ukraine-led process. We need to provide Ukraine with what it thinks it needs to prosecute this conflict.

[Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con)]

I, too, am proud of our nation’s history of defending against despots across the world, and of the way we are taking the lead in this horrific war. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that we will maintain our UK military presence inside Ukraine to look after our diplomatic missions there?

[Dr Murrison]

Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. Clearly, diplomacy is what will deal with this situation eventually. For that to happen, we need to ensure that those engaged in that diplomacy are properly protected, which is what our troops, such as they are in Ukraine, will be endeavouring to do.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I absolutely believe that what happened to the Nord Stream gas pipeline in the Baltic is connected with the situation in Ukraine. Yesterday, I raised by point of order the fact that the Admiral Vladimirsky Russian spy ship has been sailing round the Beatrice wind farm, the electrical interconnector to my constituency and other North sea assets that are vital to the UK. What assurance can I have that the UK is doing everything to protect these vital assets?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; it is an issue that probably exercises the minds of policy makers right across northern Europe. He will be aware of an investigation by Sweden, Denmark and Germany on the Nord Stream interdiction. It would be wrong to speculate further on attribution for that at this particular point, but I think we can make some informed guesses about who might be responsible. He is correct about the issue of subsea surveillance; critical national infrastructure needs to be protected. I am more than happy to talk to him at length about where we think this matter is going and what further measures we will take to ensure that there is no maritime interdiction that will attack our critical national infrastructure, particularly that which is subsea.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

With the much-rumoured spring offensive that is likely to come quite soon, we will see an escalation in the conflict and fighting. What consideration has the Minister given to further humanitarian support, particularly through ambulances and 4x4s? From my trips to Ukraine, I know that they are in desperately short supply and are needed.

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a short-term humanitarian imperative. There is also the task of rebuilding Ukraine for the longer term, and we are engaged with both those things. He is right about the need for ambulances; I would say armoured ambulances, which have been a big ask from the Ukrainians. We have provided a fleet of CVR(T)—combat vehicle reconnaissance (tracked)—Saracen ambulances in particular, which are doing good work in Ukraine. We will continue to provide those, and to note and take action on all requests we get from the Ukrainian surgeon general.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

The courage and determination of the Ukrainian people in the face of Putin’s aggression is an inspiration to us all, but it is also a challenge to us to ensure that if we cannot match it, we at least reflect it in the level and consistency of our military and humanitarian support. We cannot do that unless we replenish and backfill our military stockpiles, so can I ask the Minister for a plan or some indication of how our defence procurement is changing or adapting to ensure that our military stockpiles are at the levels that are needed?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The imperative at the moment is to get to Ukraine the munitions that it needs to prosecute what it needs to do, but in the longer term we need a more agile way of ensuring that we can replenish munitions and that the industry can provide us with what we need more quickly. That work is ongoing, but I refer her again to the announcement made in the Budget, which she should welcome, of an uplift of about £5 billion to deal with our nuclear endeavour and with stockpiles. But that is not enough, because we—and all nations—need to be more agile in our provision for conflicts of this sort, and to ensure that in doing this we do not leave ourselves vulnerable. The point is well made. We are all moving at pace to ensure that we can replenish munitions much quicker than we have been able to previously.

[Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con)]

We are all incredibly proud of the support that we have given to Ukraine in terms of kit and training. The key enabler of success in modern warfare is interoperability. Will my right hon. Friend update us on what measures we are taking ahead of the NATO summit in July to enhance and strengthen Ukrainian interoperability with NATO forces?

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is right, and he can be assured that we are working with the Ukrainians to ensure that that interoperability is there. I have to say that historically, even among NATO members, it has often been very difficult to get one system or one country to work with another. That has been a long-standing theme throughout the whole of NATO’s history, so it should not be underestimated. Vilnius will deal with it in some considerable depth and detail, and I hope that in future—as we anticipate the defence of Ukraine for the long term—that interoperability will be greatly enhanced.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his earlier response, but can he say what longer-range weapons the UK will provide to Ukraine and when they will be supplied?

[Dr Murrison]

The AS-90 is a good artillery piece, and Ukraine will certainly find it a great benefit in doing what it has to do. The aim of our support to Ukraine is to enable it to defend itself; it most certainly is not to go beyond that. It is defensive, which is why ground-to-air is so important. It is also important to consider the UK’s position going forward in terms of the artillery provided to our own military. That piece of work is going on at pace so that we can find a replacement for the AS-90 that is fit to face down the threat we may have from Russia and others in future.

[Mr Louie French (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)]

May I put on record my thanks to the British Government and public for their ongoing support for the people of Ukraine? We are proud to have a number of Ukrainians living in my constituency. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the package of kit and equipment announced by the Secretary of State in January, which included the Challenger 2 tanks and the AS-90s, has now been delivered to Ukraine?

[Dr Murrison]

Yes.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Can the Minister say when the Defence Secretary last spoke to the NATO Secretary-General about the announcement he has made today and about the Chinese negotiations?

[Dr Murrison]

I cannot give the right hon. Lady an answer to that, but I am more than happy to write to her.

[Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)]

I welcome the Government’s commitment to match or exceed the £2.3 billion in aid funding to Ukraine this year. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that that funding will not come out of the core Defence budget, so that we can keep our troops at home, safe and well equipped, while continuing to support efforts in Ukraine.

[Dr Murrison]

I can give my hon. Friend the assurance he seeks.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

As we have already heard this morning, the Wagner Group has admitted killing 40 children, and hundreds of civilian adults sheltering them, in a basement in Bakhmut. It is also implicated in destabilising the situation in Sudan. Why are the UK Government dragging their feet on declaring that organisation a trans-national terror organisation?

[Dr Murrison]

Sanctions have been placed on 1,500 people and 120 entities in connection with this conflict, including the Wagner Group and Yevgeny Progozhin.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I think the Minister was slightly unfair to the shadow Secretary of State in saying that he welcomed and understood his attacking: my hon. Friend was not attacking but doing his proper and constitutional job, as a spokesperson for His Majesty’s loyal Opposition, of holding the Government to account. If this war is to drag on for some time, as it seems it will, maintaining the focus of the British Government will be essential. What can the Minister say to us about ensuring that that focus is not lost in Government as we move forward?

[Dr Murrison]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is not lost. I probably would not trust a member of the Government to make that assertion, but President Zelensky himself has made it plain in his remarks that the UK has played a formidable leadership role in ensuring that his country can repel Putin’s barbarism and the atrocity committed upon the state of Ukraine by Putin’s Russia.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I am proud that the UK has taken a lead on Ukraine and has brought together allies from across the world to play their part. One of the ways that we have done that is through the British armed forces training programme, bringing those Ukrainian armed forces personnel up to speed with the latest fighting techniques. Given that the winter lull is now ending on the ground in Ukraine and we are anticipating a major increase in fighting, what are the Government doing with our allies to speed up that programme of training Ukrainian forces once again?

[Dr Murrison]

I visited the Ukrainians training in the UK and spoke with them and their trainers. They are an extraordinary bunch of people. I am truly humbled to be able to share some of their accounts. By the end of the year we will have trained 20,000 of them. The quality of our training is peerless, right across the domains that one would expect. It is materially contributing to Ukraine’s fighting effectiveness. Importantly, it inculcates the sorts of standards and practices that one would expect of a responsible, civilised country, in stark contrast to Putin’s Russia.

[Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)]

Given the seriousness of the situation, why are Ministers pressing ahead with further cuts to the British Army, with troop numbers estimated to fall by a further 10,000?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady should be careful about what she reads in the press. We have been consistent in our support for the armed forces. I am grateful for the shadow Secretary of State’s support for what the Government are trying to achieve in Ukraine, but it is a pity that Opposition Members are sometimes not similarly supportive of the men and women of our armed forces and defence in the UK.

[Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)]

What estimate has the Minister made of the number of Ukrainian children who have been kidnapped by Russian forces? What support has been offered to Ukrainian forces to return those children to their parents?

[Dr Murrison]

The removal of children from Ukraine to Russia is truly shocking and heartrending. The best we can hope for is that Putin sees the reputational damage that it delivers to him and his country and reverses his policy. We have seen some indication in recent times of some children being returned to their parents. It is a truly shocking element of a truly horrendous conflict, and we know precisely who to blame for it.

[Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

We all want the Ukrainian counter-offensive to be successful. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) was right to challenge the Government on whether they are adhering to their commitments. On the point about long-range missiles, which my right hon. Friend and others have pressed the Minister on, can he tell us whether the MOD is now walking back from the Prime Minister’s commitment to offer further long-range missiles? If it is, when will we hear more detail and clarity on how many more long-range missiles, and what sort, will be issued to Ukrainian forces?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Murrison]

Our provision of munitions, in concert with others, is driven by the Ukrainian ask and our ability to deliver them. That was discussed at Ramstein and will be discussed further at Vilnius, subject to the second round of the international fund call that opened on 11 April. It is important to understand that a lot of that will be driven by the international fund’s executive panel. Obviously, it will listen closely to what President Zelensky and his advisers feel they need to repel this most awful invasion of his country. However, the hon. Gentleman needs to understand the true extent of what the UK has done. Not only has it led Europe in providing munitions and training, but it has provided the bulk of the £520 million that populates the UK-led international fund for Ukraine. That is a substantial achievement.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

In the face of a Russian invasion, we must continue to support and stand in solidarity with the Ukrainian people. But this war has exposed how the Conservative Government have underfunded and hollowed out our armed forces over the last 13 years. Six months ago, we were told that we had 227 Challenger 2 tanks. Now the Minister for Armed Forces advises us that, with 14 in Ukraine, we have 157 deployable or deployed tanks. What has happened to the other 56?

[Dr Murrison]

As the hon. Gentleman should know, we committed to 148 Challenger 3 upgrades in the integrated review refresh. That remains our position. But if he is going to make a defence spending commitment on behalf of his party, I will be delighted to hear it—in particular how much more he would spend beyond what was announced in the spring Budget.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

A few moments ago, the Minister said that we must give to Ukraine what Ukraine tells us it needs. All of us here will have been in Westminster Hall to hear President Zelensky’s impassioned speech. Several weeks later, I and many others had the privilege of listening to the Ukrainian ambassador and the Speaker of the Ukrainian Parliament, who reiterated their needs and demands, which were very clear: they asked for planes and munitions. Can the Minister update us?

[Dr Murrison]

Yes, I can. Ukraine has had munitions from the international community, and in particular from the United Kingdom. I have just said that the UK is in the lead when it comes to donations to Ukraine. The hon. Gentleman is right to press me about planes. We plan to train pilots to operate jets. That will take a long time—it will not happen overnight—and it is no good in the acute war-fighting phase of this particular conflict. But that training is important to guarantee the long-term integrity of Ukraine, and we remain committed to that.

[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind)]

The demand for prosthetic limbs in Ukraine continues to climb owing to the conflict. The director of the Without Limits mechanical prosthetics clinic in Kyiv has stated that the best prosthetics come from the UK. What steps are Ministers taking to ensure that we continue to support Ukraine in meeting that demand?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise that point. Recently, I was pleased to visit the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre at Stanford Hall, which is recognised internationally as a centre of excellence. Its expertise will undoubtedly influence how Ukraine develops its capacity in prosthetics. I am giving every encouragement to that process. I have also spoken to the Ukrainian surgeon-general about what she feels will be required as we go forward. The hon. Lady is right to point out that we do prosthetics very well, and I am pleased to have been involved with that in the past. I am pleased that, going forward—it will take a long time—the UK will be right at the forefront of the efforts to ensure that those who, sadly, have been injured in this terrible conflict are provided with the prosthetics and rehabilitation that they require.

[Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. It is up to the Minister if he wishes to respond to it; if he does not, I am sure he will consider the points she has made.

[Dr Murrison]

I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) for articulating her support to the men and women of our armed forces. I am very pleased she has said that and put it on the record, and I am sure they will be extremely grateful to her.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

We will leave it at that.

Draft Service Police (Complaints etc.) Regulations 2023

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 General Committees

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Service Police (Complaints etc.) Regulations 2023.

What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. We last met to discuss this sort of matter in November, in connection with the defence serious crime unit. I hope it will be evident to those who were involved in that Committee that there is a common theme running through this package of measures, which has to do with trying, as far as we can in the service context, to replicate in the military practice relating to justice in the civilian world. I hope also that hon. Members see in this measure the effects of the Police Reform Act 2002 and the Armed Forces Act 2006, and more pertinently, given time elapsed, the consequences of the various reviews of service policing and service justice, in particular those attributed to Lyons, Murphy and Henriques.

The draft regulations bring the process pretty much full circle. Hon. Members will be aware of the appointment of Margaret Obi, whom I met last week, as the Service Police Complaints Commissioner. Her appointment will allow servicemen, servicewomen and members of the public to have the same facility in relation to service justice as they do in that dispensed by Home Office police. The statutory instrument contains the regulations that are required to establish the service police complaints system, which will be overseen by the newly appointed Service Police Complaints Commissioner. It also contains the regulations required to establish the super-complaints regime for the service police.

The establishment of the independent commissioner with these regulations implements recommendation 44 of the service justice system review—the Lyons review—relating to complaints. Lyons found that a degree of independent oversight was missing in comparison with civilian police forces, which have statutory complaints systems, and recommended that a new niche defence body be created to deliver this. The review considered the options for establishing independent oversight, which helped to inform the approach taken by the Ministry of Defence.

The review suggested a small niche unit led by an appointed individual, possibly from a judicial background, operating to the same remit as the Independent Office for Police Conduct and its director general. As such, during 2022, the MoD ran a recruitment campaign for the Service Police Complaints Commissioner in accordance with the 2016 public appointments governance code. Ms Margaret Obi was appointed by His Majesty the King on the recommendation of the Secretary of State, and her appointment was publicly announced in February. Ms Obi brings a wealth of experience and enthusiasm to this role, and her appointment ensures that there will be a more robust, independent process for service police complaints.

In line with the Lyons review recommendation, the commissioner will have functions similar to those conferred on the director general of the IOPC. The main responsibilities of the commission will be: to secure the confidence of persons subject to service law and service discipline, as well as the wider public, in the service police complaints system; to secure, maintain and review arrangements in respect of the procedures that deal with complaints, conduct, and death or serious injury matters; and to make recommendations and provide advice on those arrangements—for example, training or procedures where the commissioner believes that these may improve policing practice. The commissioner will independently investigate the most serious and sensitive cases and act as the review body for certain cases specified in regulations. She will report annually to Parliament via the Secretary of State for Defence on the delivery of the commissioner’s functions.

Also in line with the review, the commissioner will be responsible for deciding how the more serious complaints and other matters should be investigated—whether they should be referred back to the service police for a local investigation, or whether there should be a directed or independent investigation. Independent investigations are carried out by the commissioner into the most serious complaints and other matters. The commissioner will be able to call on a pool of experienced investigators to lead those investigations. The investigators will be able to exercise service police powers, similar to the way investigators appointed by the director general of the IOPC exercise police powers. These investigations will be independent of the service police and of the Ministry of Defence.

The review recognised that probably very few independent investigations would be required, and our analysis confirms this. Based on service police data for the 2018 to 2022 period, we estimate an average of 62 formal complaints annually, with 18 cases referred to the commissioner under the mandatory criteria for referral, although not all referrals would lead to an independent investigation. By way of comparison, over 36,000 formal complaints were recorded in the year 2020-21 by civilian police forces across England and Wales.

The draft regulations are quite technical and complex, and run to over 80 pages. As they largely mirror the legislation already in place for the IOPC and civilian police, I do not intend to go through each one in turn. Instead, I shall set out the main differences between this system and the civilian police complaints system, which I have interrogated. Secondly, I will touch on the responsibilities of the commissioner in relation to determining the appropriate type of investigation to be conducted.

As indicated in the explanatory memorandum to the regulations, there are some minor differences between the systems, to reflect the service context. In relation to complaints, the commissioner will only be able to make a recommendation on whether administrative action procedures should be initiated against someone in the service police, whereas the director general, who has a formal role in the equivalent police disciplinary procedure, can also direct that these procedures should be brought.

The College of Policing has no functions in relation to the service police, so has no role in relation to the super-complaints procedure. We have yet to designate any super-complaints bodies, as we need to set up the statutory criteria for designation before any decision can be made. The criteria broadly mirror those set out in the Police Super-complaints (Criteria for the Making and Revocation of Designations) Regulations 2018, with only minor modifications. Under both regimes, the decision whether a body meets the designation criteria is for the Secretary of State to make; we therefore decided that it was unnecessary for the Secretary of State to make further regulations formally to designate bodies, unlike in the civilian system. To ensure the public know which bodies have been designated, we have included a new duty on the MOD to publish this information.

The new complaints regime will apply only to matters relating to the service police that occur on or after the date on which these regulations come into force; that is, the service police complaints system will not, initially at least, deal with historical matters. The regulations recognise that, unlike civilian police, members of the service police are also members of the armed forces and can be deployed in another capacity. The complaints system is not designed to deal with non-police matters; as such, it will not be possible to make a complaint about service police personnel when they are performing duties in another capacity, although the regime will apply when they are off-duty, as the IOPC regime does to civilian police.

[Samantha Dixon (City of Chester) (Lab)]

I note that paragraph 4.1 of the explanatory memorandum states that Gibraltar is excluded from the territorial extent of the instrument. Will the Minister explain why that is, given that a constituent of mine may go to Gibraltar and experience a problem with service police? The regulations would not cover such a case.

[Dr Murrison]

I think we covered this last time. I know that hon. Members are interested in the status of Gibraltar. The difficulty is that the draft SI is made under primary legislation, notably the Armed Forces Act 2006, which covers Gibraltar in a different way. Therefore, we cannot easily include Gibraltar in the scope of this statutory instrument. I am sorry if that is a slightly unsatisfactory response for the hon. Lady, but the 2006 Act passed under the last Government dealt with the matter in that way. Of course, service personnel still have the ability to go through the existing system. Such matters will be kept under review, not least in the quinquennial reviews. It could be that at some future date and with the benefit of a future Armed Forces Bill, we might be able to amend the matter. I hope that is satisfactory to her.

The different options for investigation by the Service Police Complaints Commissioner are pretty much identical to those in the civilian system. I will briefly run through those options. First, there is the possibility of a local investigation, where the service police force do the investigation themselves. Secondly, there can be a directed investigation, where a member of a service police force is appointed as the investigator, but the investigation is under the direction of the commissioner. Finally, there can be an independent investigation, where the commissioner carries out an investigation personally or designates an investigating officer to carry it out.

As well as complaints, the new system will cover conduct matters and death or serious injury matters. In layman’s terms, those are cases where no complaint has been made, but misconduct is suspected or a death or serious injury has occurred after contact with the service police. Again, we expect only a small number of conduct matters to be referred to the commissioner that would require investigation, and DSI matters are even more rare. Between 2018 and 2022, no DSI-type matters were recorded.

We expect relatively few independent investigations, but an effective independent service police complaints system is vital. The way in which complaints, conduct matters and DSI matters are dealt with has a huge impact on confidence in the service police. Where matters are dealt with badly, confidence in the service police and the wider service justice system can be damaged. Where matters are dealt with in a way that is efficient and effective, and is seen to be independent, trust can be restored and bring about improvements in policing.

Most important, the new system will help to ensure that when something goes wrong, the circumstances are thoroughly investigated, appropriate action is taken and lessons are not just identified, but learned. I am conscious that today of all days is a time to reflect on how we can increase the effectiveness and transparency of all police services, and I certainly include service police. I commend the draft regulations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Murrison]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his typically incisive and comprehensive list of questions, which I will do my best to answer.

On resourcing, I absolutely understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. In giving him an indication of the scale of dedicated resources, I come back to my point about our anticipated level of demand; set against the context of Home Office policing, it is really very small indeed. Margaret Obi will be employed for 2.5 days a week. She is a deputy High Court judge, so this is a part-time job for her, although this is pretty much maximum part time, and clearly, that will be reviewed. I will be interested to see what her annual report to the Secretary of State and Parliament says about the amount of work she feels she has, and whether it increases over time as service personnel develop confidence in the system, and potentially increase the demands on her and her staff. She will have three members of staff—the costs will be borne internally by the Ministry of Defence—and £250,000 has been identified annually for independent investigators.

It is likely that the investigators will mainly be ex-policemen, and their qualifications will be determined by the Service Police Complaints Commissioner. The hon. Gentleman is probably aware of an organisation that acts as an agency for those kinds of people—indeed, I think we have discussed that in the past in Committee—so there is a way of recruiting people with sufficient experience to do this work. Again, I expect the commissioner to be able to feed back on that when she delivers her report, and I certainly expect us to review it at the quinquennial review, which we will conduct as a matter of course.

Moving on to the DSCU, which obviously has the expertise, it will continue to do its work under the direction of the Service Police Complaints Commissioner. However, it is possible, given that she will be hiring independent investigators, that some of the demands on the unit will be moderated. These are quite complicated matters and they suck up quite a lot of officer time, so I expect there to be a gain, as it were, for service justice as a result of what we are discussing today.

I can confirm that the date given in regulation 1(1) is correct. Although the vesting date is in June, I have already met Margaret Obi to discuss her appointment, and she pretty much has things up and running.

On training, the hon. Gentleman’s point is well made. The independent investigators will be trained and experienced police officers, but I take the point about the importance of training. I expect the commissioner to undertake a training role herself in respect of police conduct, and I would expect that to become a significant part of her role over time.

Turning to the super-complaints mechanism, I wrote to my own chief constable this morning following Louise Casey’s review because, as the hon. Gentleman points out, the issues are not confined to the Metropolitan police. This is a good point in time for all constabularies to examine themselves, their procedures and their attitudes, and to take restorative action where appropriate. That includes service police. The setting up of a super-complaints procedure is an important part of this SI. In other words, were an issue such as stop and search—the most obvious example—to arise in a service context, I would expect the Service Police Complaints Commissioner to pick that up and run with it, as has been the case in the civilian context.

The hon. Gentleman made a good point about the withdrawal of complaints. I hope that Margaret Obi will study our proceedings today, as that would be a reasonable thing for her to cover in her annual report. I should emphasise that it is her report, not mine, but if it were not included when the report is presented to Parliament, it would be legitimate to ask questions. On oversight, I hope that parliamentarians will take a close interest, including, of course, those on the House of Commons Defence Committee. It would be perfectly open to that Committee to interrogate the annual report, and I expect the MOD will do its own internal quinquennial review when it comes.

The hon. Gentleman is right about delays. Again, I prayed this in aid the last time we met in a similar forum to justify service justice, because in general the level of delays in the service justice system is enviable compared with that in civilian justice. Justice delayed is justice denied.

I take the point about bureaucratic language and the need to explain things to laypeople in simple terms. I think that point is very well made indeed.

On the accelerated procedures, I have interrogated my officials because I did not quite understand the explanatory notes. They are, in a rather techie way, part of the police disciplinary procedures that are laid out in statute. That is not what we are dealing with here. We are ultimately dealing with stuff that is laid out in King’s regulations, and in a rather techie way—apropos my previous remark—the two are quite separate. We cannot, therefore, translate directly one from the other in this particular case. I suppose it comes back to the point about Gibraltar, where we are of course tied by previous legislation. In the absence of changes to primary legislation, in this case through an Armed Force Bill, it would be extremely difficult to replicate the situation precisely. I think the intent is the same, however, and I have been insistent that what we do by means of this SI replicates, for practical purposes, what we have in civilian life. I am absolutely attached to that as an important principle.

On historical complaints, I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman pulled out the phrase “not initially” because I was also interested in this. The truth of the matter is that we must be realistic about the burden on Margaret Obi. We are going to let this run for a bit; we will review it internally after 18 months, we will have the quinquennial review, and we will have her annual report. As and when it becomes possible to look at historical complaints, the door is open to that, but I am not prepared to commit to it right now, because I want to ensure that complaints are handled contemporaneously. That must be the priority. Others will of course be dealt with through the existing service complaints procedure, but we recognise that this is the gold standard, not that, since this replicates what happens in civilian life. I hope that that is satisfactory for the hon. Gentleman.

I think I have pretty much got through all the hon. Gentleman’s questions. I will, as ever, sieve through what he put to me and write to him if I have missed something.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Cttee has considered the draft Service Police (Complaints etc.) Regulations 2023.

Operation Telic

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 20th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

I very much welcome the opportunity that the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) has provided to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the start of Operation Telic. I want to begin by paying tribute to him, both for his own outstanding service and for his deeply moving tribute to those with whom he served and the veterans he champions.

For me, too, Iraq is personal. Somewhat ironically, having opposed the war here, I was recalled to serve as a battle group medical officer during Telic 2. I have expressed my feelings about the Iraq war on a number of occasions and I will not rehearse them again today. Suffice it to say that lessons learned were dearly bought. Even now, Sir John Chilcot’s landmark inquiry is helping to set the contours for the way we see discretionary, expeditionary warfare. I think it is fair to say that few of us at the time anticipated the long shadows that would be cast by Operations Telic and Herrick.

Whatever one’s views of the wisdom and judgment of those who preceded us, it is unarguable that our brave men and women stepped up to the plate as only soldiers, sailors and aviators can. Despite enormous pressure, they went on to do remarkable things. It is their service and sacrifice that I want to reflect on tonight, as the hon. Gentleman did. As I do so, and as a Wiltshire MP who represents a garrison town, I remember the silence—the silence of Royal Wootton Bassett as the flag-draped coffins rolled by.

Of course, we make decisions in this place that change lives all the time, but the consequences of some are more stark—more vivid—than others. As the hon. Gentleman remarked, Operation Telic involved a vast military effort. It was one of the largest deployments since the end of world war two and involved all three services. Some 46,000 troops were deployed, among them 9,500 reservists. The UK sent 19 warships, 14 Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service vessels, 15,000 vehicles, 115 fixed-wing aircraft and nearly 100 helicopters. They in turn were supported in the United Kingdom and elsewhere by an army of civilians and contractors. Many of those individuals would never have experienced a conflict remotely like this one. Some would have served as peacekeepers in Bosnia and Kosovo. Some would even have taken part in the first Gulf war to liberate Kuwait, yet that conflict was won within 42 days. This one dragged on for years.

Yet, as I recall, in the early days, hopes had been high for a swift resolution thanks to an impressive series of lightning successes. Overcoming stiff resistance, our forces achieved their first objective at the port of Umm Qasr. They then moved on to take Basra, Iraq’s second largest city. Again, the 7th Armoured Brigade, the famous Desert Rats, despite participating in the biggest tank battle by UK forces since the second world war and despite constant harrying from Iraqi regular troops and Fedayeen militia, emerged victorious. Within a month, the UK, alongside its coalition allies, had accomplished nearly all its military goals. The brutal dictator Saddam Hussein had fled. His regime had evaporated. Key infrastructure had been secured. And cheering crowds congregated on Baghdad streets to welcome coalition forces and topple Saddam’s vainglorious statute into the dust. Meanwhile, stringent targeting and unprecedented use of precision weapons had kept UK and Iraqi casualties to a minimum.

But that was the high point. As the late Sir John Chilcot documented in his report, there had been a shocking lack of preparation for regime change. What followed was a bitter and bloody insurgency. Mobs murdered Royal Military police. An RAF Hercules was shot out of the sky. Soldiers were ambushed by snipers. Fighters were attacked with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades. The improvised explosive device became a staple of the news bulletins. Borne by vehicles, buried in the ground or dumped in piles of rubbish, the notorious IEDs claimed and maimed many lives. By the time the UK left in 2011, thousands had been wounded and 179 British troops had paid the ultimate price. Today, our thoughts and prayers are with the loved ones of all who lost their lives and who suffered life-changing injuries.

[James Sunderland]

Our armed forces bear arms voluntarily through choice and because of the duty they have in doing their job. But it is not just about being told what to do; it is also because they believe in that particular cause. May I ask the Minister, on that very serious point, to confirm to the House that, for all future operations and all future decisions taken to deploy armed forces in possible expeditionary warfare, that rigour will be employed with every decision, we will not take that good will for granted, and there will be a very good reason for the use of force?

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, of course; as a soldier, he knows full well the horrors of war and what war means. No Government would join battle willingly and, as I said in my early remarks, lessons have been learned from this pair of conflicts that we have had in the 21st century. Only a very imprudent Government would embark upon such an initiative or initiatives now, knowing what we now know about the nature and consequences of this kind of operation and the long shadow that it casts—in the case of Iraq, of course, we are living with it still. Some, I am afraid, live with it more than others.

Twenty years on, the Iraq war remains deeply controversial and contested. Whether it was for good or ill, the decisions taken then have continued to shape our attitude to military interventionism. Yet although we can continue to debate the politics, what is not up for discussion is the fact that the soldiers, sailors and aviators of Operation Telic at no point gave less than their all. Those who wear the Iraq campaign medal should do so with pride. It is also worth reflecting that today Iraq and the UK share a close and enduring bond, as well as a determination to defeat Daesh finally and for good, and a desire to enjoy peace and stability.

This afternoon, I had the very great privilege of laying a wreath at the Iraq and Afghanistan memorial that stands just outside the MOD main building. It is a powerful sculpture, carved out of Portland stone—unusual in that it contains no names of the fallen. In fact, only two words are etched on to its smooth surface: “duty” and “service”. The veterans of Operation Telic did their duty. Their service was exemplary. They were, and remain, the very best of us.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

It is right that we commemorate the bravery of our service personnel and the ultimate sacrifice of the 179. I thank you, Mr Jarvis, for bringing this debate to Parliament today. We will remember them. We have today.

Question put and agreed to.

Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees Bill

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th March 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, and I thank the hon. Member for Midlothian, whose work in this place on behalf of veterans I acknowledge. I recognise the points the hon. Gentleman has made, which came up frequently in discussions I have had about the Bill. They represent legitimate concerns.

The amendments would widen the scope of the committees in relation to their interaction with Veterans UK, the VAPC membership and territorial extent, and, effectively, add social care, employment and immigration to the definition of the armed forces covenant. The intention of my Bill is to recognise how committees have operated in practice in recent years and enable them to carry out additional functions in relation to other aspects of the services provided to veterans and their families by the Ministry of Defence. However, those are subtle but important distinctions.

Amendment 2 would prescribe that the regulations that establish the VAPCs provide that there must be at least one committee member who is a representative of a UK veterans association. There is no question about the importance of the relationship between VAPCs and the UK veterans associations at local, regional and national levels. However, those committee members will be appointed by the Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families following an open and fair competition that involves the civil service appointment process. Representatives of UK veterans associations are therefore welcome to apply for membership of the committees through that process.

The wording of clause 1 allows flexibility in how the regulations are framed, including in relation to the composition of committee memberships, precisely because different compositions might be appropriate across the different regional committees. The amendment is well intentioned, but it would start to encroach on how the committees are constituted, which would prevent the very flexibility that the Bill aims to afford, and which is necessary for VAPCs to operate differently across different regions.

Amendment 1 would give VAPCs functions in relation to holding the Ministry of Defence’s Veterans UK service to account in the discharge of its functions, and give oversight and review of decisions made by Veterans UK. Again, I recognise those points from comments made by Members, veterans groups and veterans themselves in the weeks and months leading up to these debates, and the hon. Member for Midlothian is right to raise them. However, in addressing the amendment, it is useful to consider the recent all-party parliamentary group on veterans survey. Many issues raised by the veterans who responded related specifically to the armed forces compensation scheme, which is subject to quinquennial review. That review is due to report fully in the spring.

We must also look to the future. I am mindful of the fact that the Ministry of Defence and the Office for Veterans’ Affairs have commissioned a review of Government welfare provision for veterans, which includes services provided by the Ministry of Defence under the banner of Veterans UK. VAPCs will be within scope of that wider Government veterans review, which will be led by a senior civil servant, with the independent veterans’ adviser and other key stakeholders providing advice. The review will last approximately three months. A copy of the review and the Government’s response will be placed in the Library of the House.

The Bill will give the Secretary of State the powers to make changes that he—or she, if it is she by then—considers necessary based on recommendations deriving from those reviews and surveys. Without knowing the outcome of those reviews or any forthcoming recommendations they might make, it is difficult to see how the amendment, which would provide VAPCs with a function to review Veterans UK, could operate in practice.

Amendment 4 prescribes that regulations must specify that the committees’ functions apply to British armed forces veterans who are resident overseas. That point was, again, well made by the hon. Member for Midlothian and echoed by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport. However, the additional functions that my Bill gives to VAPCs relate to MOD services and armed forces covenant matters relating to veterans and their families. Therefore, the Bill specifically relates to services provided by the MOD to veterans and their families within the UK.

The Armed Forces Act 2021, which introduced the armed forces covenant duty, sets out that the focus of covenant legislation is access to UK-based public services and is therefore not applicable to those living overseas. The legislation refers to those

“ordinarily resident in the UK”.

Therefore, armed forces covenant matters, as defined in this Bill, must apply only within the UK.

Veterans who live overseas and are having issues with accessing public services in the countries they are resident in will find that those are best raised with the relevant UK embassy or high commission, which can advocate locally on behalf of the veteran. Again, that may be something worth raising with the Minister on another occasion.

Amendment 3 changes the definition of “armed forces covenant matters” to include issues relating to social care, employment and immigration. The definition of “armed forces covenant matters” in this Bill derives from the Armed Forces Act 2006 provisions on the armed forces covenant. When the Armed Forces Act 2021, which introduced the covenant duty, passed through the other place last year, it defined the duty as focusing on the three core functions of healthcare, education and housing. That reflects those already in statute, which are the most commonly raised areas and are where variation of service delivery across localities can inadvertently disadvantage the armed forces community, including the veterans and their families who are the focus of this Bill.

Again, the hon. Member for Midlothian has made a point worth raising. However. areas of concern relating to the armed forces covenant can be addressed as and when they arise, through the powers introduced in the Armed Forces Act 2021, which allow the Government to widen the scope of the covenant duty, subject to consultation or where there is evidence and support to suggest it would be beneficial, through secondary legislation. That is the process by which any amendments to the armed forces covenant duty might be made—not through this Bill.

The hon. Member may be aware that the Government have committed to reviewing the operation of the covenant duty during 2023. The review will encompass the operation of the new duty across the UK and will consider whether it would be beneficial to exercise any of the powers conferred by the 2021 Act to add to its scope. That will include specific consideration of whether central Government and the devolved Administrations could usefully be added. The Government will report on that review as part of their covenant annual report in 2023.

I hope that, following those assurances, the hon. Member for Midlothian will agree not to press his amendments.

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy for his remarks, and the hon. Member for Midlothian for his amendments, which are thoughtful. I rise, really, just to support my hon. Friend’s response to those amendments, and I urge the Committee to politely reject them. My hon. Friend has laid out the reasons for that elegantly.

Regarding amendment 2, I must say that I would prefer to have the flexibility in appointing Members of VAPCs. During my time as a Minister, I have seen how that process works. It is robust and credible, and, looking at the people who populate VAPCs—all 12 of them—it seems to me that the veteran community is heavily represented. They are the sort of people who are likely to be drawn to that job, so I think, perhaps, the practicality of it is that the voice of veterans is already loud and clear. Indeed, I would say that the value of VAPCs is very much that they are rooted in the veteran community.

On amendment 1, the mechanism cited is certainly worthy of consideration, but, again, I urge the Committee to resist the function the amendment proposes. This is quite a robust piece of legislation, which has its origin in amendments tabled in the Lords in response to the Armed Forces Act 2021. For that I am grateful to my noble Friend Lord Lancaster, whose amendments at that juncture were rejected by the Government on the promise that we would facilitate a Bill of this sort. Many of the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Midlothian were addressed at that time, so I would resist amendments 1 and 2.

Amendment 4 states:

“The regulations must specify that the committees’ functions apply to British Armed Forces veterans who are resident overseas.”

I understand it and I get it, but the 2021 Act talks about people who are

“ordinarily resident in the UK”,

and for rather boring technical reasons it would be very difficult indeed to extend that to veterans who live overseas. I am sorry that that is slightly unsatisfactory, but I am confident that VAPCs will cover much of the ground and material that would be germane to people serving overseas.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I see the logic of the Minister’s argument, but can he clarify the pensions issue? Can the many veterans who retire to live abroad still raise issues with the pensions advisory board?

[Dr Murrison]

That is an interesting point. Like me, the right hon. Gentleman will get correspondence all the time from people who live overseas. I do not know what his practice is, but mine is to engage with their inquiries and where it is clear that people have a strong connection with my area or have lived there for a reasonable period, I take those up on their behalf. I will not lay down here that VAPCs should do so, but it is more than likely that those issues would be covered in any event. I hope that is a comfort to the right hon. Gentleman.

I thank the hon. Member for Midlothian for tabling the amendments and I particularly thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy for addressing them. I hope the hon. Member for Midlothian is content.

[Owen Thompson]

I will not press any amendments to a vote today, but it was important to flag the issues. If we cannot amend this Bill, can we find a mechanism to facilitate some of the things that we were trying to achieve here? It is not about putting in place a wrecking mechanism; this is all about putting in extra support. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Luke Pollard]

I welcome the Bill that the hon. Member for Aberconwy is seeking to introduce; it seems perfectly sensible. However, I have a few questions for the Minister.

In the very useful impact assessment to the Bill, section D on risks assumptions and limitations states that the MOD

“has yet to complete its own review of the VPACs.”

It says that there is a risk that future legislation will be required if that review is not completed before this legislation is taken forward. I would be grateful if the Minister could set out whether the review has been completed, so that we can be sure that we are not risking a requirement for additional legislation. On a point about language, section D also states:

“There is a risk that the widened cohort of veterans in scope will increase the number of personnel receiving support from the VAPCs under option 3”,

which was the one mentioned by the hon. Member for Aberconwy. I think that is not so much a risk resulting from the legislation as its intention, so that is interesting language to use.

May I ask the Minister about the terms of reference for VAPCs? From various explanatory notes, it seems that the last terms of reference were issued by the Office for Veterans’ Affairs, yet the explanatory notes to the Bill suggest that the Ministry of Defence will now issue them. I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify whether it is the OVA or the Ministry of Defence issuing the terms of reference from now on.

Finally, I had a look on the VAPC website to see what is going on, and I would like to praise all the volunteers for their work. There are many minutes on the website, and the number of issues considered in them shows that there are some incredible volunteers working their socks off, but I encourage the Minister to ask his officials to update the website a wee bit. Some regions, such as Yorkshire and Humber, seem incredibly active and are very efficient at getting their minutes posted on the website. Other VAPC regions are, I am sure, meeting and writing minutes, but those minutes do not seem to be as prominent on the VAPC website.

Another question is how people can contact members of VAPC regional committees. There are frequent lists of names of those whom the Secretary of State has appointed to the VAPCs, but there is not any obvious way for people to contact them. If the intention is not for people to contact the regional chair, but to make contact via a different method, it would be helpful to say what that method is when listing the members of a committee that people are being encouraged to contact. Other than that, this looks like a sensible piece of legislation.

[Dr Murrison]

This Bill is intended to regularise what has become custom and practice. There is nothing particularly new here, but the Bill does give VAPCs, which we have decided are worthwhile, a statutory basis. I hope the Bill will be seen in that light.

Under this legislation, VAPCs would have a statutory remit to do more than engage locally with recipients of war pensions or the armed forces compensation scheme. They will cover a broader range of issues; they may, for example, gauge veterans’ views on the support they receive from the Veterans Welfare Service, and raising awareness of the armed forces covenant. I hope the Committee will accept that the Government’s intent, through the legislation and the various reviews under way, is to ensure that the interests of veterans are furthered. That Government are sensitive to their concerns about how they are dealt with under the armed forces covenant.

The VAPCs will provide the Ministry of Defence and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs with a source of independent advice about how the MOD should support veterans and their families. Families are very important in this. One of the changes that the legislation will certainly bring is a focus not just on war pensioners and recipients of benefits under the armed forces compensation scheme but families and the wider defence community. I should highlight that the Bill also allows for recommendations to be adopted from the ongoing independent review of the VAPCs under the Cabinet Office public bodies reform programme, which is due to report at the end of this month, and from the recently announced independent review of the role and scope of the Government’s welfare provision for veterans, including by the MOD under the Veterans UK banner.

I take the point made by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, which reflected the perfectly understandable concern that there is a lot going on at the moment, and that there is a risk of overlap. I hope that the timeline that I have given, and the fact that this is enabling legislation—further regulations would have to be made as statutory instruments—mean that, in reality, the whole thing is pretty much covered off. Of course, rather than running these things in parallel, we could have run them in series, but I am persuaded that we need to crack on with this issue, and I do not necessarily want one to follow the other.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way and to Mr Gray for allowing an intervention—I am conscious of falling foul of the tube strike this morning. Having chaired the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill, I have taken a huge interest in the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, and I commend him on bringing it forward, because it covers the things that we did not quite get to in that Committee. Does the Minister agree that what is exciting about the Bill is not the statutory change itself, but the opportunities now available to the VAPCs? The Bill is about giving them some teeth, and perhaps also holding Veterans UK to account.

[Dr Murrison]

Yes, and that was the subject of one of the amendments that we discussed earlier. The Bill will give the committees teeth—that is the intent—so it will make the veterans’ voice louder in this domain.

The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport rightly made the point about terms of reference. VAPCs will sit within the Ministry of Defence’s remit, so the terms of reference will rest with the MOD rather than the Office for Veterans’ Affairs. He also made a point about websites, which had not struck me, but I am sure that VAPCs will have heard what he said. I do not want to mandate how they do their business, and there is a balance to be struck between their independence and what the MOD would like. I have a natural instinct towards regularising stuff, but in this instance it is important to give them a little wriggle room to do their comms piece as they see fit. The hon. Member’s point is well made, and I hope that those who are perhaps doing less well will have heard what he said.

Mr Gray, you will be delighted to hear that I have taken a red pen to a lot of my speech, because having sensed that the Committee is broadly content with the Bill, I do not see any point in dragging out the Committee, but I want to make a quick comment about the devolved Administrations. The committees will work closely, as they do now, with the devolved Administrations, and as they become aware of issues, they can raise them with Ministers. Ministers can then direct their officials, as they do now, to work with their devolved counterparts on the issues and find a workable solution. My general experience of working with the devolved Administrations in the area for which I am responsible has been positive.

I conclude by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy for his hard work on the Bill, for which I am extremely grateful, and the enthusiasm with which he has approached the task. The Bill has our wholehearted support, and I commend it to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

Before I put the final Question, I note, with great personal satisfaction, that some two thirds of the members of the Committee are graduates of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which shows the work of the scheme.

Bill to be reported, without amendment.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)]

10. What assessment his Department has made of progress on improving veterans’ welfare.

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

Madam Deputy Speaker, may I say what a pleasure it is to see you back? I declare my interest as a veteran.

On 2 March, I jointly commissioned with the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs a review into the role and scope of Government welfare provision and services for veterans. This will include provision by the Ministry of Defence under Veterans UK. The review will focus on examining the effectiveness and efficiency of welfare services for veterans, and help it to do better as part of a programme of continual improvement.

[Robbie Moore]

Armed forces breakfast clubs provide vital support and social opportunities for veterans and serving armed forces personnel. We have one in Keighley and we are hoping to get one off the ground in Ilkley. Will the Minister join me in praising those who are involved in organising them and set out what additional support the Government can provide for these fantastic veteran-led organisations?

[Dr Murrison]

I am really grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. He is absolutely right that armed forces and veterans breakfast clubs are an excellent initiative that have taken root across 14 countries, with 150,000 members. They provide a sense of belonging and community to many who have served our country. On a personal level, I like a good Yorkshire breakfast and, if the opportunity arises, I would love to visit his breakfast club.

[David Simmonds]

My constituent Steve Graham served in our armed forces for over 20 years, travelling the world and finally settling overseas, at the site of his last posting. Despite being a UK taxpayer, with a UK home, when he sought to retrain he was required to pay the full overseas rate and treated as a foreign student in order to re-educate himself for his post-services life. Will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss the case of Mr Graham and other people who may seek to retrain following long service in our armed forces, but find themselves facing significant financial barriers to do so?

[Dr Murrison]

I have every sympathy with my hon. Friend’s point, and of course I will meet him. At the moment, for an adult to be eligible for funding for further education, they must ordinarily be resident in England on the first day of the first academic year of the course, and throughout the three years immediately preceding that date. The matter is primarily one for the Department for Education, as he will know, but I am happy to discuss it with him and my right hon. Friend the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs to see what we can do on this matter.

[Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)]

What efforts will be made through the recently announced review of veterans’ experiences? Following the excellent work of the survey carried out by the all-party parliamentary group on veterans, of which I am a vice-chair, what attention will be paid to the different experiences of veterans in the four nations to ensure the best possible outcomes? Sadly, they appear in many cases to have been overlooked and ignored.

[Dr Murrison]

I look forward to seeing the hon. Gentleman and his co-chairs later this week, I think, when we can discuss the matter in some depth. I am absolutely sympathetic to the notion that we need to do more for veterans, of course, which is one reason why I have instituted the review to which I have referred. We need to be consciously aware of the lived experience in each one of the four nations of this country.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)]

A review of veteran welfare services is long overdue, but I might remind the Minister that it is his Government who have been responsible for worsening veterans services over the past 13 years. Veterans’ mental health waiting times are a week longer than last year, veterans are having to rely on charitable support just to get by, and veteran ID cards are nowhere to be seen for many. Action is needed now to fix these failures, so will the Minister tell the House when we can expect the review to be completed and its findings to be published?

[Dr Murrison]

We are recruiting a person to run the review right now. I anticipate the review being completed within three months, if that gives the hon. Lady an idea of timelines. Just so that there is no misunderstanding, may I give an indication of the appreciation or otherwise for the services provided by Vets UK? There were 122 complaints since April last year, versus 1,715 thank you letters. To be clear, the people at Norcross who are working on behalf of veterans—I have visited them; she probably has not—are doing a sterling job and are highly committed to what they do.

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

5. What steps the Government are taking to support NATO allies in responding to the invasion of Ukraine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

9. What recent steps Veterans UK has taken to support veterans and their families.

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

I look forward to the outcome of the review of welfare services, which was cited earlier. In the meantime, the Ministry of Defence is investing more than £40 million in digitising old paper-based practices, improving processes and creating a single entry point for pensions and compensation by the end of 2024. We have successfully launched a new digital claims service for compensation and pension schemes, making it easier for our people to process their claims. Over time, this will make a very big difference.

[Alex Norris]

The Minister says the review is under way. Of course, a review is already under way on the armed forces compensation scheme, with its initial findings stating that the processes are burdensome and even distressing for claimants, which is especially concerning as there has been a fall in the proportion of successful claims from 66% to 47%. Can the Minister confirm that the review is still ongoing, when it might report and what he thinks is happening?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Gentleman is correct that the final report will be delivered within, I hope, a few weeks. He will have to await the Government’s response, of course, but it ties in with some of the findings of the all-party parliamentary group on veterans, which we discussed earlier. I am concerned about any reports that the service is not as good as it ought to be. I will take that review and the APPG’s findings extremely seriously, but I am bound to cite the fact that there were 122 complaints versus 1,715 thank you letters, which I find persuasive in forming a conclusion that the people working for Veterans UK are working hard and doing their very best in quite difficult circumstances in the interests of people who serve or have served our country.

[Dame Angela Eagle]

It is great to see you back in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.

My constituents have had similar problems trying to engage with the quinquennial review of the armed forces compensation scheme. They find it slow to make decisions, difficult to engage with and not user-friendly. When the Minister publishes the review’s findings, I hope he will come back to the House to explain how he will make the system much easier for veterans to engage with, as my constituents have told me it is very difficult indeed.

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is right to raise this. As I said earlier, I cannot overstate how important it is that we are increasingly digitising the service. When people go to Norcross and see the mountains of paperwork that Veterans UK is having to cope with, they begin to understand how vital it is that we properly digitise the service and bring it into the 21st century, which is our intention.

The hon. Lady might like to know, because it is a barometer or litmus test of how the service is doing, that the proportion of armed forces compensation scheme cases going to tribunal has been falling since 2014-15, which balances some of the remarks we have heard about Veterans UK not being up to scratch. We need to review it, which is what we are doing, but I am convinced that the service will be better than it is at the moment, if that is of any reassurance.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

T2. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, I recently set up a joint committee, chaired by me and the Nepalese ambassador, to consider outstanding Gurkha welfare issues. I must tell him that retrospective pension changes in respect of the Gurkhas have been through the system several times, including the High Court, the Supreme Court and the European judicial institutions, and the long-standing position of the UK Government has been upheld. However, I am keen to see that we do everything in our power to ensure that we give Gurkhas and Gurkha veterans living in the UK and in Nepal the very best we reasonably can to support their welfare.

[Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)]

I am delighted to hear that the Government are committing £2 billion to resupply the armed forces for the munitions and equipment sent to Ukraine. That is very positive news. What my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said about the importance of investing in Army accommodation will also be very welcome news to my constituents in Tidworth, Bulford and Larkhill. In the spirit of honesty that he spoke about, can he tell us what he thinks it would take to convince the Treasury that we must do more than simply resupply our armed forces, and that we need a bigger Army, not a smaller one?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker; it is lovely to see you back. As a former chair of the south-east region for the Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees, I have seen at first hand the long shelves at Norcross where Veterans UK is based. Can the Minister assure me that the digitalisation of veterans’ records will proceed quickly, so that veterans can get quick decisions on their welfare and their welfare claims?

[Dr Murrison]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s service with the VAPC. Like me, she has been to Norcross and seen the extraordinary files of paperwork. There is no way that we can provide the 21st-century service that our veterans deserve while things are in that state, so the £40 million digitalisation—though it may sound banal—will most certainly make a huge difference. Where we can, we will also address the other things that delay claims; I am thinking particularly of the difficulties we often have with our medical advisers getting reports from GPs in the NHS. I am afraid that that is one of the major hurdles to getting these things dealt with in a timely way, but I am resolved that we should do our level best to make sure things are better going forward.

Independent Review of Veterans Welfare Services

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Thursday 2nd March 2023 Written Statements

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

This is a joint statement from me and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer)

We are pleased to inform the House that we have commissioned a review of the role and scope of welfare provision for veterans, including by the Ministry of Defence under the Veterans UK banner. Much has changed in this sector’s landscape over the last three years and expectations from within the armed forces community have changed too. The time is now right for us to take a fresh look at our support to ensure that we are meeting the needs of this community.

This review will build on the positive work already being undertaken across Government under the strategy for our veterans, including the Ministry of Defence’s £40 million digitisation project, which will significantly improve customer service and the process for managing claims through the MOD. This review will encompass the MOD’S veterans’ welfare services, as well as the Northern Ireland veterans support office, and the Government’s role in the veterans’ gateway and how they fit into wider Government support to veterans. It will also align with the reviews of the armed forces compensation scheme and veterans advisory and pensions committees that are due to report in the spring. The review will be led by a senior civil servant, with the independent veterans’ adviser and other key stakeholders providing advice and will last approximately three months. A copy of the review and the Government response will be placed in the Library of the House.

[HCWS593]

Veterans Advisory and Pensions Committees Bill

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 24th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

First, I declare my interest as a veteran. I offer my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Robin Millar), both on the content of the Bill and the manner in which he has presented it. I also congratulate the hon. Members for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) and for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins) and my hon. Friends the Members for Bracknell (James Sunderland), for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr French), for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell) and for Bury North (James Daly) for their contributions and their support for my hon. Friend’s Bill.

It is an auspicious day, which we have marked appropriately in this place. On Monday, I visited Ukrainians training on Salisbury plain, at Tidworth and Larkhill, and they are a remarkable group of individuals. Our veteran community stands shoulder to shoulder with them. Slava Ukraini. Heroiam slava.

VAPCs were created in the immediate aftermath of the great war, as war pension committees. They have evolved over time and are, as my hon. Friend said, Burkean little platoons. They are there to support our veterans and their families, and they do so to the best of their ability, but we have been listening to them and to others. We agree that their structure needs to change, which is what lies at the heart of the Bill.

This Government continue to uphold the covenant between our nation and our armed forces. As part of that, we will do all we can to ensure my hon. Friend’s Bill becomes statute. It is fully supported by the Government. At present, the VAPCs’ statutory remit is solely focused on engaging with the recipients of benefits related to the armed forces compensation and war pensions schemes. Under this new legislation, however, their statutory remit will include a broader range of issues such as gauging veterans’ views on the support they receive from the Veterans Welfare Service and raising awareness of the armed forces covenant. This will provide me, as Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families, and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs with a source of independent advice on how the MOD supports our veterans and their families.

[Sir Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I apologise to the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Robin Millar) for not being able to be here earlier.

The Minister will be aware of the recent research showing that a very large number of homeless people sleeping on our streets are veterans with brain injuries that were not properly diagnosed during their time in the forces. Will these committees be able to advise on how we can better support those veterans?

[Dr Murrison]

Yes, under the regulations and statutory instruments that fall from this Bill. I am more than happy to discuss this complex and nuanced issue with the hon. Gentleman on a future occasion, Mr Deputy Speaker, as I suspect you would call us out of order.

I recently visited Norcross near Blackpool, the home of the Ministry of Defence’s armed forces and veterans services, to witness at first hand the wide range of very good work undertaken by dedicated people to support our veterans and their families. It ranges from administering the compensation and war pensions schemes to providing advice and support to service leavers through the transition process and beyond, to the running and oversight of the little-known Ilford Park Polish care home. The VAPCs have a key role to play in providing Ministers with a regional insight into the experiences of veterans and their families in accessing MOD services beyond their current statutory confines. I give my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy the commitment he seeks on responding to representations by the VAPCs.

In addition to modernising the VAPCs’ statutory framework, this Bill moves the statutory basis for the VAPCs into the Armed Forces Act 2006, which is considered to be a more suitable home, as the MOD is that Act’s sponsoring Department. This Bill will also ensure that the VAPCs can continue to evolve to best serve the needs of veterans and their families into the future.

VAPCs, as non-departmental public bodies, are being reviewed as part of the public bodies review programme, in parallel with this Bill. That might give hon. Members some comfort, given some of the remarks made today. I hope it will.

Although the MOD remains the sponsor body of the VAPCs, I have agreed with the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs that we will consider the review’s recommendations together to ensure the best outcome for our veterans, recognising that much of the support for veterans lies outside the Ministry of Defence.

I say for the record that the MOD considers that this Bill raises no issues under the European convention on human rights and is ECHR compatible.

I conclude by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy for his work to develop this Bill, which I wholeheartedly support. I commend the Bill to the House.

War Pension Scheme Uprating 2023

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Written Statements

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

The new rates of war pensions and allowances proposed from April 2023 are set out in the tables below. The annual uprating of war pensions and allowances for 2023 will take place from the week beginning 10 April. Rates for 2023 are increasing by 10.1% in accordance with the announcement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the autumn statement on 17 November 2022.

War pensions rates

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)]

17. What steps (a) Veterans UK and (b) the Veterans Welfare Service are taking to support veterans and their families.

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

On Thursday I had the great pleasure of visiting Lancashire and in particular Veterans UK at Norcross. I met some really great people who provide a range of support to our veterans. One of the biggest impediments to progress is around data. Consequently, we are putting £40 million into a transformation programme that will digitise our existing processes, enabling our staff to provide more effective and efficient support to our personnel and veterans and substantially improve their experience.

[Robin Millar]

Our veterans and their families have made an invaluable contribution to securing our freedoms and our nation, but broadly only about a quarter are in receipt of a pension that entitles them to support from the veterans advisory and pensions committees across the UK. First, will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the work of VAPCs in supporting veterans? Secondly, will he support my private Member’s Bill on 24 February, which seeks to extend their remit and expand the cohort of veterans to whom they can offer assistance?

[Dr Murrison]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. VAPCs provide a wonderful and unsung service, as did the war pension committees before them. Of course I look forward to 24 February, and I will give his Bill my wholehearted support.

[Ms Rimmer]

Those prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice to keep our country safe should not have to rely on benefits to get by. How does the Minister plan to help veterans reliant on universal credit to acquire the skills they need to access well-paid employment?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady will be aware of the career transition partnership. She will be aware too of the special arrangements for veterans who are unfortunately ill or injured to get them into civilian life in a seamless way and provide them with the skills they need for the rest of their lives. It is important to understand that all servicemen and servicewomen are civilians in waiting. They all return to the communities from which they are drawn, and throughout their careers they have preparation to enable them to do so in as seamless a fashion as possible with the skills that they need.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

The Minister will know that the all-party parliamentary group on veterans is currently running a survey of the experience of veterans across the UK when claiming compensation, war pensions and other fiscal support from Veterans UK. That survey closes tomorrow. Will he please agree to meet me to discuss its findings and, depending on what they are, will he also agree in principle to any measures that better assure the outputs of Veterans UK?

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for his chairmanship of the all-party parliamentary group on veterans and for the survey that he has undertaken. I am very much looking forward to the results of that survey. He will be aware that the MOD does a variety of surveys and canvassing, to ensure that we are giving our serving personnel and our veterans and their families what they need to pursue their careers and to ensure that their lived experience is positive. I am very much looking forward to what his group has to say, and of course I will meet him.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The Minister will know and appreciate that mental ill health disproportionately affects veterans and their families. The cost of living crisis is putting even more pressure on access to mental health services, according to veterans’ charities. The Labour party has committed to a £35 million investment in veterans’ mental health. I ask this sincerely of the Minister: will he match that?

[Dr Murrison]

First, I have to correct the hon. Gentleman. He is not right to say that veterans, or indeed defence personnel, are more likely than the general public to suffer from mental health problems. The reverse is the case. However, it is absolutely essential that we do all in our power to promote the mental health of our men and women. That is absolutely right, and he will be aware of a number of projects, including Op Courage and throughout peoples’ careers, to promote their mental health. We will continue to do that, but he needs to understand that defence is a positive experience for the vast majority of people who experience it.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)]

The initial headline findings of the independent review of the armed forces compensation scheme state that

“the process is overly burdensome and even distressing for the claimant due to unreasonable timeframes and a lack of transparency.”

That is but one of a number of concerns raised about the compensation scheme, all of which veterans across the country have been telling us about for a long time. Veterans, who have made huge sacrifices to keep our country safe, deserve far better from this Government. Can the Minister tell the House when the full report will be published and what he is doing to ensure its findings will be acted upon swiftly?

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is referring to the quinquennial review, which has published its interim findings and will publish its definitive report in the spring. She is right to highlight some of the findings of that report in its interim form, and of course we will take into account all of those—[Interruption.] If the hon. Lady will allow me, we will take into account all of those in the spring, when the report is published. One of those things is to ensure that the system is less adversarial than it has previously been, but we have to understand that a lot of the delay is baked in because of the need to obtain proper, full, comprehensive medical reports.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

10. What progress his Department has made on the development of the Type 32 class frigate.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that. I know Brize quite well and the accommodation that he referred to. He may be aware that all top level budgets are meant to be assessing their accommodation against the Defence housing standard and will report by the end of the year. In the meantime, he should know that over the next 10 years £1.6 billion will be invested in barracks accommodation to improve some of the truly awful accommodation that, sadly, our men and women have to put up with.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

T2. It is surely right that non-UK veterans who settle here after their service do not pay visa fees, but it is surely not right that that does not extend to their dependents. Will the Minister match Labour’s commitment to change that?

[Dr Murrison]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the undertaking that he asks of me; he will understand that. Obviously, all things are kept under review, but we clearly do value the service of those from overseas who serve in His Majesty’s armed forces, and I think that most of them have a very positive experience.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

T8. We ought to be extremely proud of the Government’s impact. We are the second-largest supplier in the entire world of military equipment to the Ukrainians, second only to the United States of America. Today, we have our troops training Ukrainian troops on how to use Challenger 2 tanks. When will those be deployed on to the battlefield so that we can start to see them having a serious impact in bringing this heinous war to an end?

[Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)]

T3. Some 45% of Cheshire military personnel—220 of them—are living in the lowest standard of single accommodation. That is pretty shameful, and something needs to happen about it quite urgently. How will the Minister ensure that they have homes that are genuinely fit for heroes?

[Dr Murrison]

Some 97% of Ministry of Defence service family accommodation meets or exceeds the Government housing standard. That is better than most local authorities and better than most registered social landlords. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know—I looked this up earlier—that 105 homes owned by his Labour-controlled local authority are below the decent homes standard. I suggest that he takes that up with his council.

[Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con)]

I am sure that the Minister will join me in thanking the wonderful team at the Defence and National Rehabilitation Centre, based in Rushcliffe, for their amazing work treating injured members of our armed forces. What assessment has he made of how the expertise and cutting-edge technology at the centre could be shared with our Ukrainian allies to help to rehabilitate Ukrainian heroes who have been injured on the frontline?

[Dr Murrison]

As it happens, last Monday I visited the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre. I also heard about the NHS-led National Rehabilitation Centre, which will hopefully be stood up by the end of next year: together, they will be able to provide a truly trailblazing international centre for rehabilitation and research. Obviously, this country stands by to help Ukraine in its fight against Putin in any way possible, including in the rehabilitation of its brave men who have given so much not only in defence of Ukraine, but in defence of the rest of us.

[Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

T4. Labour’s dossier on waste in the MOD found that at least £15 billion of taxpayers’ money has been wasted since 2010. Can the Secretary of State explain why the Government are failing to get a grip on the defence procurement process and secure value for money for the taxpayer?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

T7. The call for evidence for the LGBT veterans independent review revealed that the police records of veterans convicted during the ban on homosexuality were destroyed. In answer to parliamentary questions, the Department says that that was “in line with data protection”. However, in letters to veterans, it says: “This decision was taken by the Defence Police Chiefs council, who directed that all investigations into…offences relating solely to sexuality…were to be removed from our systems and deleted from the records”. Will the Secretary of State or a Minister write to me to clarify the point? Will they consider making records of meetings of the defence police chiefs council public?

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the matter. There is no question but that between 1967 and 2000, people in the LGBT community were badly dealt with by Defence. That is why we have set up the Etherton review, which will report shortly. Having met Lord Etherton, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that he will be forensic in his examination of the data. I think I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the handling of records, as far as we can tell, was carried out in accordance with civilian practice, but of course we will stand by and wait for his lordship to opine on the matter. We will comment further when he has done so.

[Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend set out what preparations his Department has made for supporting overseas territories in the Caribbean during this year’s hurricane season?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

I warmly welcome the announcement of £1.6 billion for the repair and refurbishment of on-site base accommodation. As the Minister has rightly said, the accommodation in both HMS Sultan and HMS Collingwood is truly awful. Meanwhile, we hear that in the Portsmouth area alone, the Royal Navy is spending millions of pounds a year on putting people up in hotels, while Fort Blockhouse, in my constituency—which the Minister knows very well—remains empty. When will the MOD address this?

[Dr Murrison]

I am aware that my hon. Friend knows Fort Blockhouse intimately, as indeed do I. It is aesthetically charming, but it is beyond reasonable repair when it comes to accommodating servicemen and women. We are spending money on HMS Collingwood, and I hope that it will be brought up to spec shortly.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

A week from today a constituent of mine, Samantha O’Neill—a veteran who served in Iraq and Afghanistan—is due to be made homeless from a hostel by City of York Council, which is a signatory to the armed forces covenant. What steps can the Minister take to ensure that she and her three children are not homeless a week from today?

[Dr Murrison]

Obviously I cannot comment on a specific case when I do not have the details, but if the hon. Lady will send them to me, I will certainly look into them. Every local authority that signed up to the armed forces covenant needs to be mindful of its duty to look after servicemen, servicewomen and their families.

[Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)]

The charity Salute Her has reported that 133 women—a third of its caseload —presented themselves to it last year having suffered a sexual assault. They also presented themselves to defence community mental health services, but were subsequently discharged from the military owing to their having a personality disorder. I wrote to the Minister asking for further information, but none was available. Will the Minister look into the service to ensure that due clinical rigour is applied before people are discharged with a personality disorder?

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and predecessor. I see no evidence that people are being misdiagnosed or mismanaged. This is, of course, a matter for healthcare professionals and consultant psychiatrists in particular, and I cannot really interfere with their diagnoses, but I have noted my hon. Friend’s concerns, and I will certainly look into the issue.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that what we have learnt from Ukraine is that the future of good defence will lie in having the latest technology and innovation? Are there any new schemes we could have that would increase investment in that new technology, especially involving partnerships with other countries across NATO?

[Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con)]

Many veterans in my constituency tell me that they sometimes struggle to adapt from frontline service to the jobs that are available locally. It is a huge change, and the scars of service can be challenging. Can my right hon. Friend provide an update on the work of the defence transition service, which helps veterans to get into good, well-paid jobs?

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend may be referring to the career transition partnership, which is normally used for people making the transition to civilian life. The defence transition service is for those who have sustained an injury or illness. It is designed to ensure that people have the support that they need in order to adapt to their particular circumstances, and that they have the best possible chance of getting a decent civilian job after they leave the services. It is very successful in what it does, as is the career transition partnership.

[Anna Firth (Southend West) (Con)]

A recent news report detailing 14,500 urgent maintenance appointments in armed forces homes being missed is very concerning. Will my right hon. Friend reassure my constituents and me that he is taking every step to ensure that all our soldiers can live in good-quality homes?

[Dr Murrison]

Absolutely. It is the top priority for me, the Secretary of State and Minister for Defence Procurement. We must bear in mind that 97% of those houses are above the Government housing standards—better than most councils and registered social landlords. But we must do better, and we are bending ourselves to that task.

Draft Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeal) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 9th January 2023 General Committees

[The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeal) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes? I declare an interest as a current reservist and a past beneficiary of the war pensions scheme.

The statutory instrument will change the rules allowing late appeals against decisions under the various armed forces compensation schemes in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The purpose of these changes is to align the rules for Scotland and Northern Ireland with the current rules in England and Wales. It is worth emphasising that that alignment, although it is the right thing to do, will in practice materially affect only a very small number of appellants.

The schemes provide compensation where persons have sustained illness, injury or death wholly or partly as a result of service in the regular or reserve armed forces. Claims made under the rules of the various schemes are decided by the Secretary of State for Defence, and claimants who do not agree with the decision have a right of appeal against most substantive decisions.

Before 2008, all such appeals were made to pensions appeal tribunals, which operated across the United Kingdom under the provisions of the Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943. Following the 2008 courts and tribunal reforms in England and Wales, a war pensions and armed forces compensation chamber of the first-tier tribunal was created in England and Wales with its own rules, made under an Act that extended to England and Wales only. The pensions appeal tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland continued to exist under the provisions of the original 1943 Act.

As I said, claimants who disagree with decisions by the Secretary of State may appeal those decisions, and they have 12 months in which to make that appeal. There is also provision for what is known as a “late appeal”—an appeal made more than 12 months after the original decision, but within 24 months.

As a result of the 2008 reforms in England and Wales, a late appeal is accepted by the first-tier tribunal unless the Secretary of State objects. If the Secretary of State does object, the tribunal has the power to consider the matter and admit the appeal if it is fair and just to do so. However, the provisions of the 1943 Act still apply to the tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Until recently they did not allow tribunals in those jurisdictions to treat late appeals with such flexibility, and tribunals could do so only in specific circumstances set out in regulations.

The Lord Chancellor established a war pensions and armed forces compensation advisory steering group to pursue consistency in the procedure for appeals across the United Kingdom. It concluded that existing late appeal processes may—possibly—disadvantage appellants in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The request to make these amendments came from the presidents of tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the devolved Administrations have been consulted on, and have approved, the draft regulations.

In 2021, amendments to the 1943 Act were made that would allow us to align the rules under which late appeals are accepted in Scotland and Northern Ireland with the current rules in England and Wales. The draft regulations seek to amend the Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeals) Regulations 2001 to remove the current anomaly and align the rules on late appeals across the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Murrison]

It is worth pointing out that 24% of decisions made on the armed forces compensation scheme are in fact appealed—a significant number. Most of those come within the 12 months, so what we are talking about is what happens if people bring an appeal outside that time, between 12 and 24 months, and the answer is very few. If I give the hon. Lady a few figures, that will go some way to addressing the points that she made. From the data that I have, since 2019 Northern Ireland has received eight late appeals, of which seven were accepted and one was rejected by the president. Scotland has received four late appeals, of which two were accepted and two are still pending awaiting reasons for lateness from the appellant. In the past 12 months in England and Wales, there have been no late appeals. I hope that gives a sense of the extent of the matter that we are dealing with today.

In terms of breaking down by cause, illness or injury, I will reflect on the hon. Lady’s request. When we get down to these small numbers, there is a danger that we might start identifying the causes for people appealing, and it might be that that information is protected. Perhaps the hon. Lady will allow me to reflect on that, but if I can be helpful, I will be.

On the wider reforms to the armed forces compensation scheme, there is the quinquennial review that is currently under way. I expect that to report in the spring, and we will then have to make a decision on whether the scheme is fit for purpose or whether it needs to be changed.

The matter of nuclear test veterans and others is kept under review by the independent medical advisory group, whom I have met, and it examined the epidemiology of various conditions. So far, the data regarding nuclear test veterans gives us some cause for reassurance. That data is kept under constant review, given the passage of time, to make sure that individuals have not been disadvantaged because of their military service.

On the grounds for objection to an appeal by the Secretary of State, the truth is that the Secretary of State does not object. Even if he did, it could be overturned by a tribunal. That has been a consistent feature. I have asked officials whether we have any records of the Secretary of State objecting, but we could not find any. In terms of the criteria and why this is going to be helpful to people in Northern Ireland and Scotland, it introduces flexibility. At the moment, the only way to make a late appeal is on the grounds of a set of very defined circumstances. This removes that constraint and it is important to say that this is at the request of the presidents of tribunals in Northern Ireland and Scotland and the Lord Chancellor’s advisory group. This is something that they have identified as causing the playing field to not be as level as it should be and is therefore seen to be erasing a potential disadvantage that people living in Northern Ireland and Scotland making an appeal for a late application may fall under. The point of this is to erase that incongruity but, as I said in my opening remarks, the expectation is that the number of people who will be affected by this is very small, and I hope the figures that I have given serve to illustrate that.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Can the Minister clarify a point? When my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South was talking about the Secretary of State not objecting, she was referring to new regulation 3, under which it would be possible for the Secretary of State to object if a late appeal was made, but also possible for the pensions appeal tribunal to then overrule that, in effect, and make its own judgment. I just wanted clarification from the Minister, who was absolutely right in saying that the Secretary of State could not do that to date, but would be able to under the new regulations. Therefore, the clarification that my hon. Friend sought is still needed.

[Dr Murrison]

The Secretary of State could object, but he would have to state his grounds for objection. The reality is that he has not objected so far as we can determine and, in any event, even if he did, his objection could be overruled by the appeal process. I hope that makes it clear and that is not altered by this particular measure.

Going through the list of points that the hon. Member for Luton South made, I hope what I have said explains the position because it is the tribunals and the advisory group set up by the Lord Chancellor that has called for this—the advisory group set up to ensure that there is congruity between the arrangements in Scotland and Northern Ireland and the arrangements in England and Wales. This has been driven by those two sets of authorities, so the answer is that they would be commenting on a measure that they themselves have decided to push for. I hope that is helpful.

I think the hon. Lady’s point about consultation was reasonable, but there has to be some proportionality in this and, given that there really is no conceivable objection to this from a user point of view, it is difficult to see anything in this that could possibly disadvantage any set of veterans. I will be quite clear with the hon. Lady: our consultation has not exactly been extensive on this matter. I hope that is helpful. I cannot possibly see how any of the service charities, Cobseo or any group of veterans could object to the playing field being levelled in the way that has been described, particularly since this has been driven by the presidents of the tribunals and the Lord Chancellor’s advisory group. If there was any suggestion that anyone was going to be relatively disadvantaged, we would have to have done, as the hon. Lady said, a piece of work around wider public consultation, but, on the grounds of proportionality, that would be unnecessary in this particular case.

The hon. Lady asked about an impact assessment. I hope she is reassured by the numbers. They really are tiny and it is not entirely clear that these changes would affect those numbers in any way historically. This has been identified by the presidents of the tribunals and by the advisory group set up by the Lord Chancellor to address what appears to me to be a theoretical disadvantage that residents of Scotland and Northern Ireland may face. It is for that reason that this measure has been introduced. I hope that is helpful.

Question put and agreed to.