Holocaust Memorial Bill

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Nickie Aiken]

I did not realise the family connection with the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. The Buxton memorial is unique and should be protected. We would not want any other memorial encroaching upon it.

It is also important to remember that half the entire park itself was a gift to the nation from the newspaper retailer William Henry Smith—the founder of WHSmith —who donated £1,000 to preserve it as an open space, on the condition that it would be a place for recreation, particularly for the children of Westminster. The Government of the day agreed. To this day, local schoolchildren and even younger children continue to take advantage of this rare green space in central London. The notion of charity may have been undermined by this proposal. One may ask what it might mean for the future of other such bequests, if other gifts to be used as public space for the benefit of the environment and local people are similarly overridden.

Amendment 2, which stands in my name, seeks to limit the damage to the park to just the memorial, should the proposal go ahead. The Bill in its current form does not provide for the location of the memorial and the learning centre to be on the same site, and it was not stipulated as a prerequisite in the Prime Minister’s Holocaust Commission report in 2015. I remember that there was a proposal for the learning and education centre to be in Millbank Tower, as part of the redevelopment. That did not see the light of day, but it would have been a good compromise.

We risk Victoria Tower Gardens being completely overwhelmed as a green space by this development spoiling the setting of Parliament, the gardens and the other memorials and, in particular, overshadowing the Buxton memorial. It is my understanding that the learning centre will take up more space than the actual Holocaust memorial, and the Bill does not state that the memorial and the learning centre are in the same place. Amendment 2 would only lift the 1900 Act restrictions for a memorial to be built, not a learning centre. With the passing of the Bill, could it be that no park is protected from similar applications in future? That is a real concern of the Select Committee.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful point, characteristically both passionate and knowledgeable, on behalf of her constituents. I want to put on the record now one point about precedent, given its importance—she is right to highlight it—so that it does not get lost in my remarks when I reply to this wide-ranging Committee debate. This does not set a precedent for the release of other designated open or leisure green space in London—if it did, I would not be advocating for it. Any proposal needs to be adjudged on its merits. It does not create a Trojan horse. It does not open a Pandora’s box. I say that from the Dispatch Box, should anyone ever challenge it during a planning inquiry, a planning committee or a judicial review on an application for another parcel of green open space, as designated either by the 1900 Act or by other Acts. The view of the Minister, and of the Government, is that it does not create a precedent on which anyone could rely in law. That is an important point to clarify, and I wanted to do so with your leave, Dame Eleanor, as a clear and freestanding point.

[Nickie Aiken]

I thank the Minister for that clarification. I absolutely welcome that. That is a very powerful message to send to any future Government or future Minister who may be sitting in his place. He makes a very good point about any future planning applications, too.

[Simon Hoare]

My hon. Friend is being generous with her time. It is not—

[Mr Bacon]

Ha!

[Simon Hoare]

I am not entirely sure what has amused my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), but there we are. Some people are easily amused.

Let me just make this point. That is not just a binding statement on behalf of the actions of subsequent Governments, but for local authorities, the royal parks and any speculative developer in the private sector. I do not carve it out as a niche, bespoke protection, but as a general blanket cover.

[Nickie Aiken]

I thank the Minister once again for that very clear steer and clarification.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matthew Pennycook]

I thank the Father of the House for his intervention. I certainly agree that that is one of many considerations that need to be taken into account when determining the application, but many of the contributions to this debate have raised matters that engage planning considerations, and this Bill does not engage planning considerations, even though it will affect the ability to submit a planning application in future. However, those are matters that should be rightly dealt with by the local authority, and by the Planning Inspectorate if the application were to be called in by the Secretary of State.

I turn lastly to those amendments that concern expenditure relating to the memorial and centre as authorised by clause 1 of the Bill. The Select Committee is right to highlight that the true cost of the project has not been established and to emphasise the need to consider the appropriate use of public money when progressing it. Concerns about expenditure have also been highlighted by the National Audit Office, which has made it clear that there is a risk that the contingency is not enough to cover further cost increases. Perhaps most worryingly, the Government’s own Infrastructure and Projects Authority has red-rated this project. In other words, the Government themselves are clear that—I quote here from the definition associated with a red rating—as things stand,

“successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable”

and that it may, to quote further from that definition,

“need re-scoping and/or its overall viability reassessed.”

While the Opposition would not support the imposition of expenditure caps as proposed by amendment 1, it is clear to us that the Government need to do more to ensure that the project will deliver value for money and to provide appropriate assurances in that regard, in respect of both capital and recurrent costs. As such, I would welcome a robust assurance from the Minister when he responds that the Government have accurately estimated the cost of the project, will apply proper cost control throughout the construction period and will ensure that running costs are sustainable.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

Today in this Chamber, we have been united on the welcome return of my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay), and the House has been united on security measures on pub licensing for the Euros—probably not the most contentious piece of legislation before the House—and now on this Holocaust Memorial Bill. For all the debate that we have had on the Bill, I am grateful to all right hon. and hon. Friends and Members who have contributed to it.

We have been discussing how, we have been discussing where and we have been discussing when, but the House has never been discussing why. For reasons more than tellingly amplified by my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton North (Sir Michael Ellis), my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and others, the why is clear and demonstrable. That is a sad fact, but it is. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook), who speaks for the Opposition, for his support, as I am to the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald). I shall reserve my general thanks for the Third Reading debate.

Let me turn to the amendments. I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends and Opposition Members to reject any of the amendments that might be pushed to a vote, for reasons the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich ventilated extremely well. Let me set out why I think that is the case. I might just pause here, if I may, to remark that I think—I am not necessarily an expert on these matters—that this is probably the last substantive piece of innovative business that this Parliament—this 58th Parliament of the realm—will be discussing. It is an honour for me to be taking part in it on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, because it allows me to pay fulsome and personal tribute to three right hon. and hon. Friends on my side who will not be seeking re-election to this place.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne), who I did not know before I came here in 2015, has been a stalwart friend and colleague, and he will be hugely missed across the House, more than he will probably know because he is too modest to even consider that assessment. Likewise, I did not know my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole, but his wit, his humour and his ability to cheer up any situation have warmed many a moment. Again, he will be missed.

I save for last, but by no means least, my hon. and darling Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken). We have known each other since we were 18 or 19, and it was the joy of my life to see her join us here at the 2019 election. She spoke today, in possibly her last contribution on the Floor of the House, in the same way that she has spoken from her maiden speech onwards, with knowledge, passion, clarity and certainty on behalf of all her constituents.

My three retiring colleagues have served their communities well. They have run the race to the finish, and I hope that they enjoy the next chapter of their lives to the full, whatever it offers them.

Education is key to this proposal, to make sure that subsequent generations do not repeat the past. As so many Members, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole, have noted, that is why the symbolic juxtaposition of the memorial and learning centre and this place is so important. There is an emotional and romantic intertwining of Parliament, freedom and democracy, and how dimmed those lights were during the period of the Holocaust.

Many have rightly mentioned security, which is a key issue. I suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) that the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich is right to say that it would not be sensible or prudent to put into the public domain either the security assessment or, indeed, the remedies for what it throws up. It is slightly analogous to having a burglar alarm installed in one’s home and posting the deactivation code on social media, so I will resist that amendment.

My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle and others have spoken to a key issue. The security and peace of mind of those who work in the centre, of those who visit the centre, of those who merely walk past and, crucially, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster and my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) referenced, of those who just use the park as a park is paramount.

The overriding point is that the argument that we cannot have the memorial and learning centre in Victoria Tower Gardens because of security fundamentally undermines a key tenet that supports the proposition. Given the issues surrounding both the Holocaust and the fairly fluid and dynamic situation in the middle east, security will always be an issue for such an institution. Security would be an issue were it to be located at the Imperial War Museum, in the middle of Hyde Park or on the third floor of Harrods. Security will always be an issue, but I entirely take the point, which I echo from the Dispatch Box.

If security concerns, a fear of the mob and a fear of those who seek to disrupt and intimidate suddenly become the trump card that is used to determine where and how we locate such a facility, the mob will have won and we might as well all pack up and go home now, raising the white flag. That is why I think all of us in this House, and particularly the two Front Benches, although we are absolutely concerned about security, are not prepared to bend the knee to bullies, thugs and anti-democratic mob rule.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

I doubt the Minister intends to be the first to accuse me of waving a white flag on anything. I put it to him that the Government said that the use of the park would not be interfered with by the proposal. Were there to be just a memorial there, that might be true, but the proposals are for a memorial and a learning centre that will try to bring in half a million people a year, when we know now there are greater threats —we have had the parliamentary bookshop barricaded, and, as I say, the memorial in Hyde Park covered over. Can Government say that, with the present plans, the use of the park will not be interfered with? Where is their assessment? Who knows about it, and is it true?

[Simon Hoare]

Let me say to my hon. Friend that there is no reason for use of the park to be disrupted. I am afraid that he slightly undermined his argument, because he referred to the memorial at Hyde Park having to be secured. We have had in the past to secure the statue of Sir Winston Churchill, and to safeguard the security of the Cenotaph. There were no learning centres attached to them—they stand merely as memorials. My hon. Friend said that he thought the memorial would not come under attack—for want of a better phrase—or require security measures, and that the risk was only because the learning centre was attached to it. I do not agree.

I do not have a crystal ball, but the whole security strategy will be tried and tested for every single scenario, in the same way as it is in any plan for something with public use; of course it will be, and that is right. It would respond to any scenario thrown up. I would love to be able to give a guarantee that unfettered access will be given to the park 24/7, 365 days a year, but if, in the middle of some heavy protest or something, it is the advice of the police that it be closed in the same way as they might close a road, a shop or a facility, I suggest that it would be folly to ignore that advice.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Where we are sitting is an armed fortress—we cannot go anywhere without seeing policemen with sub-machine guns. This park has always been completely open. There is absolutely no security. Every gate is completely open; there are no security guards and no wardens. On behalf of the local community, I ask the Government to assure the public that this park will remain completely open as it always has done, and that they will be able to wander in and out of this green space.

[Simon Hoare]

My right hon. Friend raises a valid point. That is absolutely at the kernel of the plans on which this vision rests. It is, of course, a planning matter, and I am not the Minister responsible for the planning process. It is a planning matter to be looked at. I think I have said all I can say on that.

I would like to correct one or two things. There was a review of alternative sites, and the comparisons were published. The Imperial War Museum was included in that analysis process. The square footage of the development represents just 7.58% of the overall surface area of the park; the park is 18,848 square metres, while the development is 1,492 square metres, which includes the memorial. Issues relating to air quality, traffic management, changes in policy and water table, among others, are in the purview of the Minister for Housing, Planning and Building Safety, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley).

It is worthwhile quoting, if I may, an extract from the inspector’s report. As we know from cases in our own constituencies, the inspectorate is independent of Government. The inspector said that

“the development of the UKHMLC proposals since the publication of the HMC’s report”

has been

“very thorough. This has involved site selection, a public architectural competition, and after initial selection, a very detailed preparation of the proposals and their presentation,”

with formal public consideration by Westminster City Council and

“ultimately the more detailed evidence presented before the Inquiry.”

I concur with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton North (Sir Michael Ellis) that to describe the process as flimsy, or say that Government and others seek to railroad a proposal through within five or 10 minutes of the idea being in somebody’s mind, stretches the definition—

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

On that point, will the Minister give way?

[Simon Hoare]

Will my hon. Friend allow to make this important point, knowing the seriousness with which he takes the Buxton memorial? I do not want to stray too far into the planning issues, but he will know that the Buxton memorial is listed. As a result of being a listed structure, it is a material planning consideration when any new proposal to set something alongside it is taken into consideration. The design and the layout are entirely set out to ensure that the memorial is subservient to the Buxton memorial, given both its heritage and listed status.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

I do not dispute what the Minister has just said, but previously he quoted the planning inspector. The inspector did not see the comparison between the top three sites recommended by the consultants or the light-bulb moment when someone involved wrote to a member of the Government saying, “Have you thought about Victoria Tower Gardens for the memorial?”, not for the learning centre as well. The inspector did not see that, I have not seen it and the Minister has not seen it—it did not happen.

[Simon Hoare]

The planning inspector did the work that statute places upon them, to allow them to make a clear recommendation back to Government on how this application should be determined. The inspector saw all documentation that was germane to that appeal process and, of course, could have called for additional documentation if they so wished. I say gently and respectfully to my hon. Friend the Father of the House that I appreciate he does not like the outcome of the process and that he never will, but trying to cast a whole variety of assertions about how we arrived at the outcome, using questions about procedure and process, is not particularly helpful on an issue that clearly commands the support of the majority of the House. My advice to the House would be to tilt at windmills where they exist, of course, but where they do not exist, do not seek to create them.

I reiterate what I said in response to the invention by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster. Setting aside the relevant section of the 1900 Act is necessary to bring forward, in land use and planning terms, the proposal that will eventually be before us. It does not—let me say that again, it does not—establish a precedent for any public body or Government Department, nor does it create a precedent that can be relied upon in law, at judicial review or elsewhere, for private sector developers or joint venture partners with the public sector to base their argument on the proposal. They will not be able to say, “Ah well, this portion of Victoria Tower Gardens was allowed for this purpose, therefore the Government have opened up a Pandora’s box.” To mix my analogies, this does not create a Trojan horse either. It is not a Trojan horse bearing a Pandora’s box. Any application would need to be judged on its merits. I want to make that abundantly clear, because I know that it is an important point for my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster.

Many questions have been raised around costs, which are not necessarily an issue for this Bill per se. I will not test the patience of the House by saying that the public sector is tried and tested and reliable, with its letters of contract and contract managers, but everything seems to overrun. I say politely to the House that, of course, costs have gone up over the past nine years, since this idea was first mooted. And, of course, costs will go up still further the longer that we delay.

May I make two philosophical points, Sir Roger? First, whoever is monitoring the delivery and the budget management on this will, with due and proper cognisance to the public finances, be as resolute as they can be to ensure that proper contractual obligations are followed and that budgets are met and not exceeded. One would expect to see a contingency on something such as this, and, indeed, those costs will ebb and flow as the cost of materials rise and fall, and the cost of labour changes and the like.

[John Stevenson]

Does the Minister not share my concerns about costs? It was £50 million in 2015. It is now estimated at £138 million. He has already said that the cost is likely to go up even further. Are we really writing a blank cheque for this scheme?

[Simon Hoare]

My hon. Friend is right, and I will thank him properly on Third Reading, but may I just put on record at Committee stage my thanks to him for the work that he did chairing the Select Committee that looked into all of this? It did a thorough piece of work and I am hugely grateful to him and to colleagues who gave up so much of their time.

Yes, costs have gone up. I say this as somebody who has spent some considerable time looking at development costs in the private sector. Sometimes we can look at things in the public sector and say, “How on earth have they arrived at this particular figure?” But the National Audit Office, the Public Accounts Committee and others will keep a very clear view on that, and they are right to do so.

I say this to my hon. Friend: we want to commemorate and memorialise a horrible period in our world history, and ensure that education can be provided so that the mistakes of the past are hopefully not repeated in the future. I do not make this point to be flippant, but what cost can be put on that, given the scale and the seriousness of the task that we have in front of us?

[Bob Blackman]

My hon. Friend will clearly be aware that when the original proposals were put forward back in 2015-16, the design of the memorial and the education and learning centre had not been considered. Therefore the budget that was set then, before the design work was done, was clearly going to be inadequate for the type of facility that we are talking about. Given that we are in those circumstances, he is right that we will need to take a clear position on keeping to costs and keeping to the contract prices. Equally, there is the provision of private sector investment, to which my hon. Friend will no doubt refer. Does he agree with me that, in all these developments, until such time as spades go in the ground, investors are very unlikely to make contributions until they see something really happening.

[Simon Hoare]

In broad terms, my hon. Friend is absolutely right in the way that he sets out how these things will work. I am grateful to him for making his point in the way that he did.

Reference was made to some astronomical sum of money that has already been spent. I think I heard the figure £40 million. A total of £18 million has already been spent. I did not recognise the £40 million figure when it was uttered by, I think, my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West, so I checked with my officials. Nobody in the Department recognises that figure. He may want to write to me with the details, but it is not a figure that we recognise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nickie Aiken]

The Minister makes an important point about how important it is to be able to have a moment of reflection. As I said, when I visited the Holocaust galleries at the Imperial War Museum, I personally came out of the museum feeling that I needed somewhere to sit and reflect. Surely that is one reason why, as I and others have advocated, the Imperial War Museum is the right place for this memorial.

[Simon Hoare]

Let me say this to my hon. Friend: before coming to this place, I heard in my professional life—I have also heard this in my political life, as I am sure many of us have—“Do you know what, I think this is a fantastic idea. Gosh, I think it’s good, and I know an absolutely marvellous site, two and a half miles away from where you want to develop it. It would be so much better there. My goodness me, it would stand out absolutely beautifully, but don’t do it here. Don’t do it in my backyard.” It is my hon. Friend’s backyard, given that this is her constituency.

As I said earlier, there was a comparison of sites, and Victoria Tower Gardens was alighted upon. It is as close as one can get it to the heart of our democratic function. My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West said something that I thought was uncharacteristically Tory. I wish my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg) had been in his place. I think he would have leapt to his feet, as much as anybody of his age can leap to their feet.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Simon Hoare]

Let me finish this point, and then of course I will. My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West dismissed in some Cromwellian way—I say this slightly tongue in cheek—the fact that the first bit of our parliamentary democracy that visitors would see is the House of peers, as if it were in some way a second-tier part of our bicameral system.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

Hear, hear!

[Simon Hoare]

We will have no heckling from the SNP, thank you very much. It is where the throne sits. It is where the power of this place emanates from. Parliament and the Crown are interlinked.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

rose—

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

rose—

[Simon Hoare]

I am going to give way to a Tory.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

On a point of order, Sir Roger. There are only two minutes left, and I had hoped to wind up the debate.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I just wanted to point out that I was listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) carefully, and thought that he made an absolutely brilliant speech.

[Simon Hoare]

I would have thanked my right hon. Friend for that intervention, but now I do not think that I will. My apologies—I thought that I had until six minutes past 7 to conclude, when I thought the Father of the House was due to wind up.

In that case, I draw my remarks to a close by urging right hon. and hon. colleagues to oppose the amendments, to move this important proposal through, to provide a suitable memorial and education centre, not to give way to the mob, and to stand up for the very best of what it means to be a British democrat.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hoare]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

Mr Deputy Speaker, may I begin by thanking you and your fellow Deputy Speakers for chairing proceedings in Committee so expeditiously? I thank all right hon. and hon. Members, on both sides, who took part in the debate, which was informed, sensible, probing and proper.

I thank the officials, who have worked diligently and with the efficiency and professionalism that anybody who has been a Minister now comes to expect, almost as a matter of course, from our wonderful civil service. I thank Paul Downie, Helen Jones, Ruby Hatton, Emma Morrison and Sally Sealey for all that they have done during the progress of the Bill. I particularly want to thank my private secretary, James Selby, for all that he has done to ensure that everything was in order.

It would be remiss of me not to thank Ed Balls and my noble Friend Lord Pickles for all that they have done to progress this idea. I also thank those hon. Members who so willingly and diligently gave of their time on the Bill Select Committee: my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson), who chaired it with his customary wit and professionalism, the hon. Members for Selby and Ainsty (Keir Mather) and for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner), and my hon. Friends the Members for Guildford (Angela Richardson) and for Great Grimsby (Lia Nici). The House owes them all a debt of gratitude, as do the Government, and I repay that debt wholeheartedly and fully now.

I also thank those who gave of their time in preparing their case. Those opposed to the proposal, either in whole or in part, gave of their time to appear before the Committee, and in so doing they exercised the right to be heard without fear or favour and to be cross-examined fairly by elected democrats in this place. That is actually what all of this is about: the triumph of good over evil; of light over darkness.

The challenge, real as it was, that the cloud of Nazism cast over the continent of Europe, and that the horror the Nazis unleashed against people merely because of their faith and belief, came so close to extinguishing those precious lights of religious freedom and democratic institutions, as well as freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of thought.

The Holocaust memorial will stand as a testimony to that; a visible beacon to specific visitors as well as to casual passers-by. It will provide a time to pause and reflect, and to redouble our efforts and make again the solemn and precious vow: “Never again.”

Those who make a visit to the education centre—hopefully many of our young, but not exclusively our young—will come away with a renewed determination to learn from the horrors of the past, to understand in some clearer detail the depths that humankind can plummet against members of its own species, to make again that eternal vow of never again, and to learn from the mistakes of the past. The synergy of the education centre and the memorial, juxtaposed to each other and adjacent to this sovereign democratic Parliament, is so important, as is the setting in a busy part of the city of Westminster, with bustling traffic, pedestrians and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) and others said in Committee, families and children enjoying the open space provided in central London that is Victoria Tower Gardens.

What could be more uplifting than the laughter of children at play? What could be a happier sight than families enjoying leisure time together? We will reflect, when we think of those scenes, of the families ripped apart by the Holocaust, of the children torn from their parents, and the husbands separated from wives, to go into a cattle truck of darkness, not knowing where one was going, why one was going or what in the name of all that is holy was happening, merely because of a sign of faith and a belief in Yahweh. I hope that all those who visit will, as they see children at play and happy families, think of how many families were destroyed.

The imperative to deliver this memorial remains ever pressing. Those who either were part of the Kindertransport —I think of Lord Dubs and others—or are of the generation who have contemporary memory, even from a very young age, are ageing and dying. It is so important, even with a small and dwindling cohort of the real-time survivors, that they can draw spiritual comfort from the fact that we do not forget, that we do remember and that we do recommit not to repeat.

I am grateful and the Government are grateful to the Opposition for their support during the Bill’s progress. The commitment was first made by the then Prime Minister, my noble Friend Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton way back in January 2015. The Bill has ebbed and flowed, but throughout those ebbs and flows, it has continued to enjoy cross-party support and support from the range of political parties of this place and elsewhere, different parts of civic society and a huge variety of our faith communities.

We acknowledge the concerns of those who think there is a better site and those who are concerned about the size of Victoria Tower Gardens, the impact the development may have on its character, or the precedent the Bill may create. I hope that I addressed those points as best I could in Committee, cognisant of the fact, which it is probably worthy of reminding ourselves of and which the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook) alluded to in his kind and supportive remarks towards the end of Committee, that while many of the concerns were totally legitimate, they were germane to the planning process, not the progress of the Bill.

I hope the House knows me well enough to take as gospel when I say that the Minister for Housing, Planning and Building Safety, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley) and I have meticulously safeguarded clear lines of demarcation between progressing this Bill through the House of Commons and issues related to planning. I can say, hand on heart, that my hon. Friend and I have not exchanged a single word about the Bill, the site or the proposal. It is important to stress on Third Reading that we have clearly understood and respected throughout probity, understanding the difference in the various powers and the quasi-judicial function that sits behind the planning process.

As this is a hybrid Bill, the Select Committee heard from petitioners against the Bill and raised questions in its report about how Victoria Tower Gardens were chosen. We have discussed the cost of the project, and we take seriously the security implications. I thank the Committee for its report, and I hope that it welcomed my response, which was published recently. The security of our fellow citizens is one of our clear and primary duties. I have no doubt that there will be challenges in that arena, and dynamic solutions will be needed.

For absolute certainty, I echo the point made so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy): the day must not come when the decisions of where and how we site our memorials is dictated to, the whip hand is given and the fiat is acknowledged from a group of unaccountable people who believe that those who shout loudest, waive the most banners, cause the most disruption and generate the most vandalism will prevail, because the state has neither the nerve nor the spine to stand up to them to say what we think is right, that we cherish it and that we will support it with all that we can. I make that commitment to the House and to the country today.

We will not be, nor should we be, dictated to by those who are fundamentally anti-democratic, who will not take no for an answer and will accept only victory and never defeat. We say to them, “Not here, not now, not ever.” To give ground on that would fundamentally change this place and our democratic functions. As we approach that most important of democratic functions on 4 July, it is a time for all of us who honourably wear the badge of democrats to stand up for our shared values, irrespective of political difference. [Interruption.] I think the hon. Lady for Bath wishes to intervene.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

I would like to make a speech.

[Simon Hoare]

In that case, I will not let the hon. Lady intervene. [Interruption.] Who was that? My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) chunters from the Back Benches up until the end.

I think that we have lost sight of the fact that the proposals were considered at a detailed and independent planning inquiry. Set against the thorough work of the Committee and the time that has elapsed since 2015 when the proposal was first given voice, that fundamentally undermines the accusation of railroading by Government. The planning inspector considered a great deal of the evidence and looked in significant detail at matters such as the impact on Victoria Tower Gardens and, crucially, the Buxton Memorial and other existing memorials. The inspector concluded that any harms to heritage assets were outweighed the public benefits of the scheme. The design and the layout will take the right approach to respecting those existing monuments, particularly those which are listed. As I have said, the planning process is the correct way to consider these issues. It is not necessary—indeed, it would not be right—for debates on the Bill to become concerned with the minutia of planning matters.

Let me say again, on Third Reading, that the Bill deals with a very narrow point in the London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900. That was the only issue that was found to be an obstacle to construction in Victoria Tower Gardens. Let me say again for the convenience of the House and for the certainty of those outside, the Bill creates no precedent in its alleviation of the clause within that Act. It sets no precedent elsewhere in Victoria Tower Gardens, or elsewhere.

We regret to recall that antisemitism is at record levels. The devastatingly clear speech delivered by the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), just yesterday put that into very clear view. A great grandson of the survivor Lily Ebert has said:

“When we no longer have survivors like Lily among us, this memorial will help to ensure that their experiences are never forgotten. We can create the next generation of witnesses.”

We must do that to ensure that the pernicious weed of antisemitism can be grubbed up and that the stain that it is on some sections of society is removed.

Let me conclude as I began, by expressing my thanks to Members for their contribution on Second Reading, in Committee and on Third Reading. I am grateful to the Clerks of the House, as always, for supporting the smooth running of the Bill, and to the Holocaust memorial team in my Department for their policy and Bill management support. I look forward to watching the Bill’s progress in the other place from this place. I commend it to the House.

Funding for Local Councils

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

I thank the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan) for instigating this debate. I am only sad not to see the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) in his place—this may be the final Adjournment debate of the Session, and I feel personally hurt that he has not been here to intervene and to give Strangford’s take on Shropshire. However, I am sure he is somewhere thinking of us and kicking himself that he is not here.

The hon. Member for North Shropshire was right to say that all politics is local. She is also right to echo something that I have said on many occasions: most people’s exposure in our communities is to the facilities and services provided by local councils for their communities. We agree absolutely on that. I want to place on the record my thanks to all the councillors and officers of Shropshire Council, and indeed to local government across the country, for all that they do and strive to do. They get out of bed in the morning to achieve for their communities, to deliver change, to make place and to improve opportunities and living.

The hon. Lady referred specifically to libraries. Libraries is a topic very close to my heart, both as a keen reader and, as a child, an avid attender of our local library. Dorset Council has done the most phenomenal work with its libraries in similarly challenging circumstances, being a rural council and the like. I am pretty certain that should her officers in Shropshire reach out to those in Dorset, they would be happy to provide some advice or guidance—call it what you will—on safeguarding the future delivery of those important services.

The hon. Lady is right that I have acknowledged—the Government have acknowledged—the challenging financial circumstances of local government, brought about in whole, or certainly in very great part, by pressures on adult social care, special educational needs and disabilities, and home-to-school transport. Around about 80% of an upper-tier council’s budget is spent on 10% to 15% of its population. We just have to watch that balance to ensure that council tax payers feel that they are getting something for their money. As she will know, I have not committed on behalf of the Government to a root-and-branch review of the local government funding formula, because my assessment is that it is all but broken—an analogue proposal for a digital age that needs reworking from the bottom up. I have always asked for certainty and clarity from the local government sector, and as a Government, we have always been keen to deliver them. In the next Parliament, they could best be delivered by having, in the short term, a multi-year settlement to give that security, and then by Parliament using that time—and I cannot overstate the value that I see in this—to provide a cross-party sustainable solution for delivering on these issues.

I do not say this flippantly, because I have thought about it, but the hon. Lady has spoken in this Chamber and in Westminster Hall about local government finance and local government issues more generally, and I have answered on many occasions her questions and those of Labour Members, and it suddenly struck me early this morning—I do not know why it struck me then—that although they may identify a problem, I have yet to hear their solution. I have yet to hear the genesis of an idea from the Opposition parties. The Labour party has had 14 years to think about it, and the hon. Lady’s party has had the past nine years, but there is absolutely no idea. She told us—I jotted down her words contemporaneously —that we need to give consideration to

“how we fund social care, and indeed how we collect council tax.”

I agree with her, but she gave no suggested solution to those pressing problems. I find that very strange given that Opposition parties really have nothing else to do than beaver away on policy to put before the electorate in just a few weeks’ time.

Although the hon. Lady was right to point out that she has no idea, and no more do I, of what the result of the election will be, it is very much my hope that I may be standing at the Government Dispatch Box setting out the plans to which we have committed on the fundamental review and rewriting of local government finance. I shall leave that to the electorate of North Dorset to decide, and I hope that they put their faith and trust in me, as they have done on the past several occasions.

Let me turn briefly to some of the figures. I have said them so many times now that I get slightly bored of them, but I think it worthwhile to read them into the record. The local government finance settlement for 2024-25 makes available up to £64.7 billion—an increase in core spending power of up to £4.5 billion, or 7.5% in cash terms, compared with 2023-24. We listened to the views of local government, and many colleagues from across the House, including the hon. Lady, who knows how grateful I was that she took part in the parliamentary level of the consultation that I undertook, which was the highest level of take-up that a Minister has delivered. As a result of listening to what we heard, the Government announced additional measures for local authorities in England worth a further £600 million, including £500 million of new funding for councils with responsibility for adult and children’s social care.

What does that represent as far as the hon. Lady’s council is concerned? The settlement represents an increase in core spending power of up to £25.1 million, or 8%, making available a whopping total of £340.2 million in 2024-25. That is not small beer for Shropshire Council. I also recognise, as the hon. Lady does, the additional cost pressures and challenges of delivering quality services in a rural environment with a sparse population and longer travel times, which is why we have set such enormous store by the rural services delivery grant. As she knows, because Shropshire ranks within the top 25 sparsely populated areas in England, her council received an additional £9 million through the RSDG for 2024-25 on top of the other moneys I have spoken of, in order to assist with the importance and the difficulties of serving dispersed populations.

Is it enough—is it ever enough? Who knows? We always need more. It is important that every year, councils take the opportunity to learn from others, peer review, and engage the Local Government Association to help them modernise and seek savings through shared services and other initiatives. I know that many councils do that, but not all do. As we know, Shropshire went unitary and gleaned a huge amount of financial benefit from so doing, as did my council area of Dorset. There are things that local authorities can be doing to reduce expenditure and to use the money from the savings they make to continue to deliver those services that, increasingly, people look to their local council to deliver.

In conclusion, I am grateful to the hon. Member for North Shropshire for raising this issue. She and I share many things, including a concern for making sure that our rural areas are well represented in this place. I will continue to do that on behalf of my constituents; I hope the hon. Lady will not take it ill if I say that I hope my party will represent North Shropshire after the general election, but it has been a personal pleasure to work alongside her over these past several months since I have been dealing with local government. She has brought a lot of engagement to the process. I am just sorry that her party has not brought forward any ideas, but let us share those ideas cross-party in the next Parliament to ensure we have a robust settlement rubric that will meet demands: one that will be cost-effective and affordable, but will continue to deliver the quality of public services that so many in our communities rely upon and rightly deserve.

Question put and agreed to.

Local Government (Pay Accountability) Bill

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Paul Bristow]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. As I said, the Bill requires the relevant authorities to gain approval by resolution before not just advertising but appointing a person for a role with an annual salary that exceeds £100,000. It will apply to those who are appointed, rather than just to the advertisement element. The Bill will create greater transparency so that people are able to see much more clearly the gap between those in a local authority who are paid the most and those who are paid the least. I think that will help all decision making when it comes to pay and guidance. It will also help trade unions with some of the things they need to do to ensure that their members get a fair deal when it comes to remuneration.

Clause 2 confirms the Bill’s territorial extent as England and Wales, with application in England only, and contains measures in respect of the Bill’s commencement and on transitional and savings provisions. The clause will come into force on the day on which the Bill receives Royal Assent, and it sets out the extent, commencement and short title of the Bill.

The amendment I have tabled will provide that resolutions held for the purposes of the Bill will not qualify as information exempt from public discourse. It will ensure that the Bill’s key objective, which is to increase transparency on senior pay in local government, is met. It will ensure that any votes on salaries are held in view of the public; that transparency is incredibly important. It will prevent relevant authorities from utilising the existing exemption rules to circumnavigate the transparency requirements for salary offers. Transparency is the principle of the Bill and what we are trying to achieve, because with greater transparency and greater accountability comes better decision making.

Ultimately, the Bill seeks to ensure that proper scrutiny and accountability is in place for salary offers for senior officials that are above £100,000 for relevant authorities, in respect of new appointments only, and that openness and transparency are adhered to across the board.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

I am sure the Committee will be familiar with the dictum of Cecil Rhodes. He is often misquoted, but the direct quotation is:

“Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.”

As a Welshman, Mrs Harris, may I say that to serve under your chairmanship is to have won first prize in the lottery of life? If that does not get me some brownie points, I do not know what will. It is a pleasure to serve under my friend and colleague, Mrs Harris.

I am more than grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough for his leadership on this issue and for the work that he and his parliamentary staff have put in to furthering this important Bill. I am delighted to say that the Government support the Bill, as they support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend, so I hope we can avoid a Division on that matter.

[Alexander Stafford]

I am glad that the Government support the Bill, but I am disappointed that they have not tabled an amendment in respect of fire authorities, to increase transparency. I am disappointed that fire authorities are exempted. Will the Minister touch on why they have been exempted and are not treated as the rest of local government is? We are all one, all local servants, and should be treated the same.

[Simon Hoare]

I think the Bill was narrow in scope for a reason—possibly for the reasons that I will touch on in a moment. My hon. Friend makes a strong point, in principle. One could argue for it under the dictum that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Of course, it is open to my hon. Friend and others to consider authoring amendments as the Bill progresses through this place and the other place. I will leave that to him.

Let me turn to what the Bill is about—actually, let me touch for a moment on what the Bill is not about, because I think that is almost as important to stress. This is not a Bill that says, as a matter of guiding-star principle, that in the local government sector being paid more than £100,000 is a bad thing. Anybody who works closely with their local councils—irrespective of tier, but particularly although not exclusively with the unitary and/or upper-tier authorities—will know that in many respects senior officers, who in the main are the people who would command that level of remuneration, are in effect running large divisions of a multi-facing business. If we are to expect high-quality public services delivered efficiently and robustly, local government of course needs to be able to attract the brightest and the best.

One could argue, from the point of view a public service ethos, that working for the public good is of itself remuneration enough. But that will not convince the gas board, the water company or the mortgage company: “I can’t pay you this month or this year, but I am working in local government, so there’s a lovely warm and fuzzy feeling around me. Please take that as payment in lieu.” The bills need to be paid.

This is not about castigation. It is not about asserting, as is sometimes erroneously trumpeted, “Oh, everybody is paid far too much in local government.” Far from it. All of us who work closely with local government—I have the privilege to do so as both a Member of Parliament and a Minister, and colleagues on the Committee will do so with their local officers—usually come away entirely impressed by the devotion to duty, the wisdom and the commitment to public service that officers bring.

[Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris. I thank the hon. Member for Peterborough for bringing this Bill to the House. I am not sure whether this has been touched on. As somebody from a black and minority ethnic background, I welcome increased transparency, because often people in the top tiers of Government, local authorities and organisations do not reflect the local communities they serve. The reason why I support the Bill is that I hope it will add that tier of transparency and accountability for appointments, so that they can be for the best and the brightest. Often, we get accused of nepotism or are told that it is about who knows who. The Bill puts in another tier, so I welcome it and I thank the hon. Member for it.

[Simon Hoare]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s observation. She makes the key point that local authorities always do well to take into consideration whether the elected members as well as the officers reflect the broad demographics and composition of their communities. I know the hon. Lady was not suggesting it—I interpret her remarks as saying what I believe to be true, which is that all appointments should be made on merit—but we are not talking here about quotas or positive discrimination. I think—I am sure the Committee would agree—that positive discrimination is actually as bad as negative discrimination. We need the best people doing the best job that they can. I take the point entirely that looking like, sounding like, and resembling the communities that are being served is an important consideration, but it should not be the be-all and end-all of things.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Bristow]

I am not sure I could be thanked any more, but there is always an opportunity for one more round of thanks if anyone wishes to do that.

[Simon Hoare]

I am a little hurt that nobody has thanked me.

[Paul Bristow]

I was just coming to that. I thank the Minister for his remarks, his advice and the skilful way he has managed this debate and responded to my speech.

I want to thank some of the senior officers at Peterborough City Council. The Minister was quite right when he said that there was not, in any way, a suggestion that senior officers in local government are not worth salaries of more than £100,000. Anyone who interprets the Bill in that way is being unhelpful. The officers at Peterborough City Council do an excellent job in the main. I particularly mention the chief executive Matthew Gladstone, and Adrian Chapman, another senior officer I deal with, along with Rob Hill and James Collingridge. They do fantastic work, and the excellent relationship I have with them as Peterborough’s Member of Parliament is testament to their professionalism. It has been six months since we had a Conservative majority in Peterborough—the council was previously run by the independents, and as of Monday is run by the Labour party—yet the openness and responsibility that I experience as the Conservative Member of Parliament show that it is not party political. The professionalism of those officials is to be admired and I thank them for everything they do.

I reiterate the point made by the hon. Member for Bradford West when she said that transparency allows for a diverse mix. It is absolutely right that we should seek to ensure that a council and its employees are representative of the community they represent. In diverse cities such as Peterborough and Bradford, that is particularly important. Allowing accountability and transparency—opening the windows and allowing air to come in—leads to better decision making and better spending of taxpayers’ money. That is something we should all seek to emulate in local and central Government. Transparency and accountability are key, and lead to better decision making when it comes to public service or the private sector. We have seen that in the House in recent scandals. When we have transparency and accountability of decision making, it leads to better government. I will now sit down, thanking everyone again for everything they have done. Let us hope that the Bill progresses further through the House.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill, as amended, to be reported.

Local Government Officials: Bullying

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) for raising this important subject, and also to the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) for her helpful intervention. I look forward to her Bill.

I have been urged to be brief. As a fellow Welshman, Mr Deputy Speaker, you will know that that can sometimes be quite tricky, but I understand from my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher), the Whip on duty, that he is keen to rush home to start making his cheese and pineapple hedgehogs in preparation for his Eurovision Song Contest party; we all look forward, of course, to his extended invitation. So I want to be serious but also to be as brief as I can, in respect for the House.

The debate is timely, because it comes just a week after elections to many of our town and parish councils up and down the land. I want to take the opportunity—as I have on previous occasions when I have met parish councillors—to put on record our sincere thanks for their service to their communities. They are always unpaid and usually unsung heroes, working to deliver change and improvements to the towns and villages in which they live and serve. I suppose I should declare a slight interest, having started my political career as a parish councillor before migrating to the district council, supposedly moving upwards to the county council, and then fetching up here. With the exception of membership of the other place, I have the full set of badges.

My right hon. Friend’s point is particularly important because the councillors elected last week are being welcomed to their new authorities and being inducted—for the first time, in some instances—into the rules and conventions of public life. We all know that vibrant local democracy flourishes where the reputation of the local authority is held in high regard. It is an honour and a privilege to serve as a community representative, and all those seeking and achieving public office should be holding themselves to the highest standards of conduct in recognition of the trust placed in them. The electorate have a right to expect councillors to behave well and respectfully in all their interactions—with each other, with members of staff, and with the public. Councillors’ decision making should be honest, demonstrably transparent, fair, objective, and in the best interests of all whom they serve. There is no place in our systems and structures of local government for bullying, intimidation or harassment.

My right hon. Friend’s remarks focused on bullying, intimidation and other inappropriate behaviour on the part of councillors. As he will know, there have been incidents where council clerks have effectively been charged with such offences, so it can go both ways. It is important to nip it in the bud and cut it out as quickly as possible—not just for the standards in public life set out by Nolan and reiterated this afternoon, but because it fundamentally sours the working environment of public service when people abuse their position, bully, cajole, intimidate and so forth in council meetings. As my right hon. Friend has noted, there are rules that apply.

I am concerned that we still occasionally think of our town councils, and especially our parish councils, as some sort of quaint, Edwardian and Vicar of Dibley-like institutions where people quibble about whose turn it is to do the biscuits or whatever. Instead, they are doing incredibly important work. As my right hon. Friend will know, there is no cap that we in central Government can place on the precepts of town and parish councils; we merely rely on their good common sense.

We know that many town and parish councils across the land have been asked to take up roles and responsibilities—the management of public loos, for example—on behalf of their upper-tier authorities, and they willingly do so. Those upper-tier authorities—be they borough, district or county councils—can be capped, and when there has been pressure on local government finances and close collaboration between the constituent parts of the local government family, some burdens have been passed on to lower-tier authorities.

My right hon. Friend is right to point out that there are some standards lacunae—I put it no more firmly than that. As he set out in some detail, there is a clear and growingly compelling case for having a look at this issue again. I would be more than happy to continue the conversations that I have had with NALC since I was appointed last November. I would include the ALCC and the SLCC, and I am more than happy to include my right hon. Friend in those discussions to try to find a common-sense route to go through.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

I shall seize on that potential opportunity to ask whether we could all come and see the Minister together. There are a lot of operators in this field, and to have him and representatives of the three organisations in the same room at the same time would be an extremely positive step.

[Simon Hoare]

I began my working day with an official visit to Croydon Council, followed by a visit to Slough Borough Council. Both were hugely enjoyable and rewarding, and the offer of being seized by my right hon. Friend during this Adjournment debate is an invitation I cannot resist. He makes a very important point, and I should have made that clear in my remarks. There is considerable and compelling merit to meeting the three bodies together. There is some overlap and some divergence of views, and different organisations will have different ways of seeing and identifying solutions to a problem. Let us have a roundtable, if one wants to call it that, or a meeting in the Department to try to identify the issues, and to try to deliver the simplest, easiest and most straight-forward solutions.

We would do so not to be unduly heavy-handed, or to impose the dead hand of Marsham Street on our vibrant town and parish councils, but because we hold dear, and view to be important and precious, those values of civility, transparency, decency, common sense and collegiality in all the fora in which elected or appointed people discharge public duties. That is an expectation that the public rightly place on all of us, and it is sometimes a challenge, but it is one to which we are all capable of rising. I look forward to furthering the discussion with my right hon. Friend.

I close by again thanking the hon. Member for York Central for her contribution, but I particularly thank my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East who, with his usual calm, methodical logic, put forward a compelling case that only a perverse Minister of the Crown could seek to resist.

Question put and agreed to.

Local Government Stewardship Update

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

All hon. Members will recognise the critical role local councils play in providing essential statutory services to their residents and being accountable to the communities they serve. Where councils do not meet the high standards that we set for local government, it is right that the Government intervene in order to protect the interests of residents. Today, I am informing the House of statutory guidance on best value standards and intervention; action the Government have taken in relation to part-time work for full-time pay, including the reissuing of a best value notice to South Cambridgeshire District Council; inspections of Warrington Borough Council and Spelthorne Borough Council; and a proposal to continue the intervention at Liverpool City Council and appoint a statutory board.

Best Value Guidance

Following consultation last summer, which ran for six weeks between 4 July and 15 August 2023 and received 76 responses, the Secretary of State today, under section 26 of the Local Government Act 1999, is issuing statutory guidance on best value standards and interventions. Accompanying the guidance is a summary of the consultation responses received and the Government’s response to the consultation that details the changes made following the consultation. The draft guidance was well received by the local government sector.

The guidance provides greater clarity to local government in England on what constitutes best value and the standards expected, and a clear escalation pathway involving the various models of statutory and non-statutory intervention in the event of failure to uphold these standards. Local authorities, including combined authorities and combined county authorities, are required to have regard to this guidance when carrying out their functions.

The guidance includes reference to council staff undertaking part-time work for full-time pay without compelling justification as an indicator of potential best value failure. This is in accordance with non-statutory guidance on four-day working week arrangements, which was published in October 2023 and makes clear the Government’s view that these practices are unlikely to adhere to the best value duty. The best value guidance demonstrates that we will take action where an authority is not using its resources effectively and does not have a credible workforce strategy. As part of this, I have today reissued a best value notice to South Cambridgeshire District Council, given the trial it is continuing to undertake of a four-day working week.

Best Value Inspections

Warrington Borough Council is one of a small number of councils carrying the biggest risk in terms of debt leverage. The council is the most indebted unitary authority in England, with a capital finance requirement of £1.85 billion—5.5 times its total service expenditure (as of March 2023).

My Department commissioned the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy to undertake a detailed review of Warrington’s capital finances. The review, which we are publishing today, found that its portfolio of debt-funded investments is very large and uniquely complex—to a degree that is concerning and puts the council at risk. The report also raises some concerns with decision making, governance and oversight. Having regard to that report, together with the council’s response, and other information, including meetings with the council, external auditor reports and the decision in the July 2023 cabinet meeting to conclude two new loan agreements for up to £145 million and subsequent reversal of this decision, our assessment is that there are clear financial risks and that, if they materialise, they are very likely to have significant impact on local residents and some impact on the national public purse.

The Secretary of State has exercised his powers in section 10 of the 1999 Act to appoint Paul Najsarek as lead inspector to assess the council’s compliance with its best value duty, and specifically in relation to council functions of governance and section 151 of the Local Government Act 1972 and the strength of associated audit with particular attention to the decision making and scrutiny and risk arrangements; the capacity and capability across the organisation but particularly the finance function, and whether this is sufficient to meet the best value duty; the adequacy of the council’s plans and capacity to address the recommendations made by the CIPFA capital review and to control its debt levels and reduce them over time; what an appropriate level of capital risk would be for the authority, with regard to the statutory guidance on best value standards and intervention; the impact the investment portfolio and its management has had on service delivery; and the prudence of financial decision making. The lead inspector has been asked to report findings by 30 August 2024, or such later date as may be agreed, and will be able to request the appointment of assistant inspectors.

Spelthorne Borough Council is another one of the small number of councils carrying the biggest risk in terms of debt leverage. Their debt stands at nearly £1.1 billion (as of March 2023), which is 52.4 times its total service expenditure and is the second highest level of debt for a district authority in England, after Woking.

Again, my Department commissioned CIPFA to undertake a detailed review of Spelthorne’s capital finances. The review, which we are publishing today, highlighted concerns around governance and decision making, alongside a significant and expanding risk profile. Having regard to that report, together with the council’s response, and other information, including meetings with the council, the public interest report issued in 2022 and the Local Government Association’s corporate peer challenge from 2022 and follow-up visit in 2023, our assessment is that if the risks materialise and Government need to step in, there may be a considerable burden on the Exchequer.

The Secretary of State has therefore again exercised his powers in section 10 of the 1999 Act to appoint Lesley Seary as lead inspector to assess the council’s compliance with its best value duty, and specifically in relation to council functions of governance, section 151 of the Local Government Act 1972 and the strength of associated audit, scrutiny and risk arrangements, with particular attention to the governance arrangements and decision making conducted across the council; the capacity and capability across the organisation, but particularly the finance function, and whether this is sufficient to meet the best value duty; the adequacy of the council’s plans and capacity to address the recommendations made by the CIPFA capital review and to control its debt levels and reduce them over time; what an appropriate level of capital risk would be for the council, with regard to the statutory guidance on best value standards and intervention; the council’s capacity to implement the new housing strategy; the impact the investment portfolio and its management has had on service delivery; and the prudence of financial decision making. Given that our concerns relate to broad decision making and whether the standards expected for effective and convenient local government are being upheld, the inspection will consider decision making in relation to those functions, encompassing leadership, governance, organisational culture, use of resources and impact on service delivery. The lead inspector has been asked to report findings by 30 August 2024, or such later date as may be agreed, and will be able to request the appointment of assistant inspectors.

Once the inspections are complete, we will carefully consider the inspection reports. If they show either council is in breach of its best value duty, we will then consider whether or not to exercise powers under section 15 of the 1999 Act.

Liverpool City Council

Liverpool City Council has been under statutory intervention since June 2021, following the best value inspection, with four commissioners appointed to exercise functions relating to regeneration, highways and property. In November 2022, the Secretary of State issued further directions to expand the intervention to cover finance, governance and recruitment and appointed an additional commissioner. On 7 March 2024, I confirmed to the House that the Secretary of State had updated the directions as the intervention approached its scheduled end date of 9 June 2024, and reduced the scope of the intervention by returning certain functions to the council. I also informed the House that the commissioners considered at that time that some form of statutory intervention would be needed beyond the scheduled end date, that the next report from commissioners was expected later that month, and that I would update the House in due course.

The commissioners wrote to the Secretary of State on 15 March with their fifth report. The report, published today, documents the strength of the council’s leadership and their commitment to drive the improvement needed. There has been significant improvement in many of the council’s activities, particularly in the last year. However, the council started from a very low base and there was slow progress in the first half of the intervention. Under the new leadership, we have seen the pacing of improvements accelerate significantly, but there are a number of areas which need further improvement and there has not been sufficient time to demonstrate to commissioners that improvements are embedded throughout the council. The commissioners have recommended that the intervention continues until the end of March 2025.

Having reviewed the report and all other relevant information, today I am announcing that the Secretary of State is satisfied that despite the significant improvement, especially over the last year, Liverpool City Council is not yet meeting the best value duty.

The Secretary of State is minded to exercise his powers under section 15 of the 1999 Act to continue the statutory intervention until 31 March 2025 to enable focus on the improvements across the authority and provide assurances on continuous improvement needed to meet the best value duty.

Consistent with the recommendation made by commissioners in their latest report, the Secretary of State is minded to appoint a statutory assurance and improvement board instead of the current commissioner model, reflecting the progress made by the council, and because there is strong and committed leadership. The board would provide oversight, advice and challenge to the council, and would not be able to exercise any functions of the council.

To support this, the Secretary of State has proposed new directions he is minded to issue to the council. He is minded to direct the council to undertake a range of actions to the satisfaction of the assurance and improvement board, including:

To allow the board to provide advice and challenge to the council on all areas of work related to any relevant improvement indicators; and

Directions that require the council to undertake specific actions in relation to property, to continue finance improvements, to build capacity and capability for regeneration and to further embed culture and performance management throughout the council.

These proposals are subject to the council meeting specific conditions to the satisfaction of commissioners, in regards to property, in May.

The Secretary of State is considering the composition of the proposed board. He agrees with the commissioners about the importance of continuity and providing expertise that best supports the council with the improvement needed. The Secretary of State considers that, if he were to decide to appoint a statutory board, he is minded to appoint Mike Cunningham CBE QPM as chair of the board. He is considering the appointments to other board positions.

All interested parties are now invited to make representations to the Secretary of State about the report and the changes to the intervention that he is minded to make with respect to Liverpool City Council, by close on Monday 13 May 2024. The Secretary of State and I will consider carefully all the representations before making a final decision on whether to make these proposed changes to the Liverpool intervention and issue new directions to the council, and on any appointments.

Conclusion

I want to acknowledge the work of the dedicated staff who deliver the important services of local authorities, on which local residents depend, and also the work of local councillors, and in particular those who have just been elected. I also want to thank the commissioners in Liverpool and other councils in statutory intervention for all they do. I will deposit in the Library of the House copies of the statutory guidance, reports and associated materials.

[HCWS446]

Draft Representation of the People (England and Wales and Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Representation of the People (England and Wales and Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. May I start with an apology? We have had to bring the draft instrument forward as a tidying-up and housekeeping exercise. It is nothing to set the world alight, but it is an important thing to do, and I hope it will be supported across the Committee.

The Elections Act 2022 introduced measures to, among other things, amend the franchise to reflect the United Kingdom’s new relationship with the European Union and to protect the rights of UK citizens living in EU countries. Last year, two statutory instruments were passed that flowed from that aspect of the Elections Act. They made changes to the voting and candidacy rights of EU citizens in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. They provided for a new registration requirement for applications from EU citizens and set out a process requiring electoral registration officers to conduct a one-time review to determine the eligibility of all registered EU citizens. One instrument applied to all local elections in England and to police and crime commissioner elections in England and Wales. A separate statutory instrument applied franchise changes to local government and Assembly elections in Northern Ireland. The majority of the changes came into effect from 7 May.

We are bringing forward this instrument to amend a drafting oversight in both of those sets of regulations. A primary intention of the two current instruments was to allow EU citizens who chose to make the UK their home prior to the end of implementation period—that is, before the UK left the EU—to continue to have the right to vote and to stand for election. That group of electors is referred to as “EU citizens with retained rights”. People applying to register to vote under the retained rights criteria, referred to as “relevant EU applicants”, must make a legal declaration that they meet the criteria of an EU citizen with those retained rights, have been legally resident in the UK since the end of the implementation period and are from a country with which the UK does not have a voting and candidacy rights treaty.

Relevant EU applicants were intended to be defined as individuals who are citizens of the 19 EU member states with which the UK does not have a reciprocal voting and candidacy rights treaty and who are not citizens of Ireland, Cyprus or Malta—for which exemptions exist because Irish citizens’ UK voting rights long predate the EU, while the voting rights of Cypriot and Maltese citizens derive from their citizenship via the Commonwealth. The five countries with which the UK has voting and candidacy treaties are Spain, Portugal, Luxembourg, Poland and Denmark. Citizens of those countries will not lose their voting rights in the UK.

However, due to an oversight, the requirement for applicants to indicate that they fulfil retained rights criteria unintentionally applies to particular applicants with dual nationalities—that is the key point here—even though their answer to those criteria requirements will have no bearing on their eligibility to register to vote. In essence, the drafting error forces people to prove twice, rather than only once, their right to vote.

The current legal definition of a relevant EU applicant means that citizens of the 19 relevant EU countries who also have another nationality that is British or Commonwealth, excluding Cyprus or Malta, or have citizenship of a treaty partner state, are legally obliged to indicate that they fulfil retained rights criteria, as part of their application to register to vote, even though that answer is irrelevant to determining their eligibility. Retained rights criteria are immaterial because the eligibility of an individual with more than one nationality to participate in elections is established based on whichever of their nationalities grants them the greatest voting rights. For example, an individual with British and French dual nationality would have the same voting eligibility as someone with single British nationality, making it unnecessary to make demands that are relevant only to French applicants.

While this issue exists in law, if an application to register to vote from a relevant dual national is received by an electoral registration officer and the applicant has not indicated that they fulfil the retained rights criteria, that application would technically be incomplete. As such, the administrator would have to get in touch with the applicant to require this information, even though the answer to the question would make no difference to the outcome of their application.

In practice, this issue creates the potential for confusion among applicants, who could reasonably object on the grounds that being asked to indicate that they fulfil retained rights criteria is unreasonable. Worse, this confusion could even result in people abandoning an application to register, disenfranchising themselves—something I am keen to avoid. It also creates the potential for an increased administrative burden on electoral registration officers.

Today’s statutory instrument amends the definition of a relevant EU applicant in the England and Wales regulations, as well as the equivalent term used in the regulations pertaining to Northern Ireland. The instrument defines a relevant EU applicant as someone who is a citizen of an EU member state, is not a citizen of an EU member state that has a treaty with the UK and/or is not a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. That will provide an enduring resolution to the issue, with the dual nationals I referred to earlier no longer being legally required to provide immaterial information as part of their application to register to vote. Until this instrument comes into force—which I hope it will with the support of the Committee this afternoon—measures have been put in place to minimise the extent of the issue, but this instrument is needed to fully remedy the problem.

Having set out the background to this statutory instrument, I hope the Committee will appreciate the need to make swiftly this straightforward legislative amendment to remove the risk of confusion among applicants and unnecessary burden for electoral administrators.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hoare]

I thank the hon. Lady for the tone and tenor she adopted in her remarks. I would say to her that to err is human; to forgive, divine. I did start my remarks by issuing an apology to the Committee: no Minister of the Crown likes to have to come back to this place to tidy up a legislative oversight. It is embarrassing and a nuisance; it wastes colleagues’ time and the time of the House. If there had been another way we could have done this, we would have, but it required the draft regulations. We thought there were two options: one was just to pretend it had not happened and to keep the burden there, with a double qualification; the other was to fess up, to put our hand up and to tidy everything up to make things easier for the administrators—the hon. Lady is absolutely right that we do not want to overburden our administrators.

To pause there for a moment, Mr Hosie, I want to put on record—I think this would be echoed in all quarters of the House—our thanks to all the staff who delivered what were peaceful and calm elections last week. They do a huge amount of work, not just on election day, as we all know, but in the weeks and months spent preparing the registers, the paperwork and everything else.

I agree fundamentally with the hon. Lady that we want to maximise the number of people who qualify not just to be on the register but to participate in our electoral processes. The requirement of the beating heart of democracy is that that beating heart be exercised, and it is exercised through the ballot. We want to maximise that.

We have seen a collision of two things. One is the Elections Act and the determination to tidy up our electoral system and to make it as resilient and robust as possible looking forward. That is tied up with the obvious knock-on implications of leaving the European Union, which meant that certain rights had to change and so on. I will not describe that as a perfect storm, but those two things—which would have been big and chunky pieces of work in themselves—have, when added together, been a test for our administrators, although I have to say that they have risen to the challenge magnificently.

The whole purpose of this exercise is to ensure that the system is as transparent and as easy to use as possible. We will of course continue to seek other treaties such as those we have with Spain, Portugal, Luxembourg, Poland and Denmark—that is an organic and iterative process, and something to be welcomed. No one qualified to be on the register under the double qualification-proving requirements we are seeking to tidy up today will have to reapply; there is no additional burden for them or, indeed, for the administrators.

I am not convinced that that requires a huge information campaign. When we have talked to the people affected, they have not realised that they have been having to answer the same question, but through two different routes. However, we will of course keep this under review, to address the point the hon. Lady made, perfectly validly, about the need to maximise the numbers of people on the register who duly qualify and to secure their participation in the ballot.

The hon. Lady referenced—I hope I quote her correctly—the “flawed photo ID system” but, truth be told, I do not think that that bears scrutiny. Yesterday, I had one read-out from officials on the electoral events of last week; this morning, I was with the Electoral Commission, and I will see it again next week. We, and the commission, have said that we will review each event in these relatively new times since the Elections Act has come into play, to ensure that things are working as we envisaged they would. If they are not, we will tidy up where appropriate. I was very struck, as I am sure everyone else here was travelled to their polling stations last Thursday, that people were there with their voter ID. Again, I pay tribute to the work of all the political parties, civic society, local authorities, the commission and the Government on promoting and raising awareness of that requirement, which does ensure that our electoral system is as robust and reliable as we can make it.

If I missed anything that the hon. Lady raised with me, my apologies, but she can drop me a line and we will reply in writing. I hope I covered the main thrust of her argument. This is a tidying-up point, which will make things easier for those who apply, while those who have applied and qualified will not have to do anything else. The changes will ease the burden on electoral administrators involved, because they do not require any going back to check on details. I do not say this in any way to be flippant, but this is a housekeeping, tidying-up point.

I am grateful for what I think I heard the hon. Lady say was her support. She and I share an annoyance that we have to be here in order to do these things, but I thought it better to get them done than to leave them hanging. With that, I close my remarks.

Question put and agreed to.

Coastal Communities: East Devon

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) for bringing forward this important Adjournment debate about his area.

It might be helpful if I set the scene with a few facts and figures. I understand entirely the difficulty, the tensions and the problems for coastal and rural councils in delivering services. There is an additionality to cost that is often triggered by a heightening of the age demographic, as the hon. Gentleman said, and by the sparsity of communities. These are not great dense conurbations but small, picturesque villages and hamlets. They are attractive and they support our environment and make an area a lovely place in which to live, but it is not without challenge to deliver public services there. That is being experienced by a lot of councils in those areas.

That is why we listened carefully and closely to those who made representations to us during the evolution of the local government funding settlement. Pausing for a moment, I have made the point before to the hon. Gentleman that a record number of Members of Parliament from across the House came to see officials and me during the official consultation process, to advocate in the strongest possible terms on behalf of their areas. My hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Simon Jupp) was one of them, but the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton was not. I politely say to him that if one is serious about trying to effect change, an Adjournment debate is an interesting platform on which to do it, but engagement in the proper channels of communication and consultation can often bring forward better results.

[Simon Jupp]

Let me run through a list of some successes in our part of Devon. They include: £15.7 million to help level up Exmouth, including the Dinan Way extension, which the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton mentioned; up to £30 million from South West Water to improve water infrastructure in Sidmouth; £1.4 million to address flooding on the River Sid and River Otter; a new school to replace Tipton St John Primary; our incredible Nightingale Hospital, which is still open and still bringing down waiting lists in my constituency; and, up the line in mid-Devon, which the hon. Gentleman sometimes pretends he represents, Cullompton is getting a new railway station. Meanwhile, Lib Dem-led East Devon District Council failed even to apply for funding for swimming pools, even though it asked me to campaign for it. It is the Lib Dems who are failing the south-west, not the Conservatives.

[Simon Hoare]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Maybe the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton is the sort of bloke who complains that he did not win the lottery even though he did not buy a ticket. How could he be expected to win the lottery? You have to be in it to win it.

Of course, not every council bid is going to be successful, but as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, the dynamic effect of levelling up across the United Kingdom is being felt across communities, many of which had felt left behind, ignored, undervalued—call it what you will—by successive Governments of all stripes. If one talks to those in communities that are benefiting directly from the levelling-up initiative, the shared prosperity fund, the future high streets fund and others, there is a real sense of excitement about what can be done in partnership with the local authority, local businesses and the Government to deliver beneficial change.

Although I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon for setting out with such clarity the projects that have been delivered or part-funded, I am slightly annoyed, because he has stolen quite a lot of my remarks. He was a very distinguished local journalist, whose calls I used to relish taking—anything to get my views and thoughts on some local issue on the record. I now quiver slightly when my telephone rings and I see his name flashing, because I know he will ask for further things for his part of Devon and the wider county. He advocates at the heart of Government to ensure that his constituents and others, including those of Tiverton and Honiton, see the benefit of the UK Government’s commitment to levelling up.

We listened to local government and offered an additional £600 million in the local government finance settlement; I know that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton is aware of that. East Devon District Council saw an increase in core spending power of 5.9%, making available a total of £17.4 million for 2024-25. Mid Devon District Council saw an increase of 5.9%, making available a total of £11.6 million, and the county got an increase in core spending power of 7.8%, which is an additional £56.8 million, making available a total of up to £788.8 million for Devon County Council in 2024-25. We have invested £15 billion in a suite of complementary levelling-up projects to help grow the economy, create jobs, improve transport, provide skills training and support local businesses. Perhaps more powerful than even those things, as powerful and efficacious as they are, is the civic pride that the investment lights up in areas such as his—a pride in seeing what can be done, and starting a process that, if successful and guided and managed well, can provide no end of opportunities.

[Richard Foord]

Given the sorts of enterprises that the Minister just described levelling-up funding as being about, can he explain the decision to invest £50,000 in stone chess tables in north-west England?

[Simon Hoare]

There is a rubric for taking decisions. The Department’s levelling-up initiative is, of course, handled by the Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my excellent hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Jacob Young). Each scheme is judged against fixed criteria; if it meets those criteria, it goes into the next round and can ultimately be successful.

I am afraid that I am not in a position to comment on individual schemes, whether successful or not, or on why they have been successful or not. That is something that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton would need to take up with the Under-Secretary, who always makes himself available to colleagues from across the House to discuss the exciting levelling-up initiative.

By my figures, £94.5 million of levelling-up funding has been allocated to Devon, excluding through legacy programmes, and that is in addition to significant long-term devolved funding and powers that we estimate to be worth up to £27 million, so I dispute as a matter of core principle the idea that the hon. Gentleman was trying to posit in my mind, and the mind of the House, that this Government and my party take for granted his part of Devon, or that of my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon—or indeed any other seat where we have a long history of representation. The Conservative party is a one nation party or it is nothing. We represent the views and aspirations of millions of people. It is why we have been the most successful political party, trying to do our best where we can for all our communities.

The hon. Gentleman was right to say that the terms of reference for levelling up have evolved since it was instigated. It was initially seen as primarily the preserve of post-industrial northern towns, but increasingly we see its power in our rural and coastal communities too. I have set out the figures on Devon’s success with levelling-up proposals; the county is doing incredibly well. Some £16 million in round-two levelling-up funding has been allocated for Destination Exmouth, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon mentioned. East Devon District Council received £1.8 million from the United Kingdom shared prosperity fund. East Devon will also benefit from the fact that the Heart of the South West local enterprise partnership was the recipient of £35.4 million from the Getting Building Fund programme for 2020 to 2022. The community ownership fund has been very powerful in areas such as the hon. Gentleman’s, as it has in mine. It supports initiatives that are of value, including sport centres, arts venues and precious community spaces.

The hon. Gentleman lost me, I have to say, in his speech. At first, I was building sandcastles with half a bucket. He then told us that the beach I was on had pebbles, so that would be a pebble castle, not a sandcastle. I was not entirely sure whether I was putting my jam or the cream on the top or the bottom of the scone. I confess, as I represent the Blackmore vale, the land of the small dairies as described by Thomas Hardy, that I always view cream as a substitute for butter. It is the glue that holds down the jam, so one always puts the cream on first, and tops it with jam, not the other way around. I am not quite sure where the hon. Gentleman was putting his cream or his jam, but I hope he was not putting it on his children or the beach, or in their buckets or all over their spades.

We then had the ad hominem comments about how life is always so much better under the Liberal Democrats, these little rays of buoyant sunshine that fleetingly shine through the clouds of the south-west from time to time, only to disappear behind the broken promises of their tuition fee pledge—and I have little or no doubt that the same will happen again.

This debate allows me to mention something else. I appreciate that this is nothing to do per se with the hon. Gentleman, but he extolled to the House, as his party often does, the sanctity of the Liberal Democrats, who have some sort of higher public calling. We had elections to Dorset Council last week, a neighbouring authority. A lot of people were saying to me how much better the roads are in Dorset than in Devon; we are very happy to exchange contractor details if necessary. One of the most distasteful aspects of last week’s campaign was that a senior member of the hon. Gentleman’s party—the leader, I am told, of a neighbouring authority—spent quite a lot of time telling people, on the doorstep, that a Conservative party candidate had stage 4 lung cancer, was unlikely to see his term out, and would possibly not be as attentive as possible to his public duties as a result of having to receive chemotherapy.

That gentleman, who had served his community steadfastly for years, lost his seat. That is the democratic process, and I make no complaint about it. However, I have to say something that, by God, I have been waiting some years to say this from this Dispatch Box: I will take no lessons on the qualitative assessment, usually self-made by those in the hon. Gentleman’s party, that somehow it is better than mine in instinct and delivery, and in its definition of “public service”. What I have just relayed to the House has come from more than one reliable source. I just hope that his party enjoys its temporary victory in Dorset Council; I am not entirely sure that it is the sort of victory I would have enjoyed.

Let me turn back to the matters at hand. In conclusion, the hon. Gentleman has spoken for his community, and I am grateful to him for doing so. I hope that I have given him, the House, his constituents and those of my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon the figures and facts. I absolutely underscore our commitment to the hon. Gentleman’s area, to the whole south-west, and to any and all of our communities in the UK where need is identified, and where the good offices of His Majesty’s Government can be deployed to help things along.

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the local government funding settlement in the round being more bespoke and digital, rather than analogue; it must also take account of the times and demands, given that, as he and I have discussed, there has been a change in the demographics in his part of Devon and elsewhere in the south-west. We are committed to doing just that in the next Parliament. If I am in post then, I look forward to working with colleagues from across the House. If, cross party, we can find a solution that holds water, can withstand scrutiny and can sustain local government, and all the good work that it seeks to do, for the next 10, 15 or 20 years, rather than having short-term fixes, the landscape of local government and public service delivery for our communities will be very much improved. I hope that my reply has been of help to him, and of interest to his constituents.

Question put and agreed to.

Derbyshire County Council

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. A competition of trying to judge the difference between him and a ray of sunshine would not be difficult to engage in, because if one listened to him, one would think all was doom and gloom and bleakness in Derbyshire. Let me assure him, and my hon. Friends the Members for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) and for Derbyshire Dales (Miss Dines) who are in the Chamber this evening, that in no way, shape or form is Derbyshire County Council on any red list or radar-flashing screen in my Department. That is good news for the residents and service users of Derbyshire. At this juncture, let me also put on record my thanks, as we all should, to all those officers and councillors, irrespective of party, who turn up day in, day out to serve their communities and to try to make things a little better for people in Derbyshire. They deserve our thanks.

The hon. Gentleman referenced in some detail—understandably so, as I am not seeking to dismiss his concerns in any way—children’s centres and other services provided to young people. Those, as he will know, are properly and in great respect in the domain of the Department for Education. I will not intrude upon other Ministers’ portfolios, but I undertake to the hon. Gentleman—I hope this will serve as a sort of holding reply—to ensure that my colleagues in the DFE are aware of his remarks and concerns and respond accordingly and appropriately.

There is little to no doubt that the funding scenario for local government in England has been challenging, and it would be foolish of any Local Government Minister to stand at the Dispatch Box of the House of Commons and say it has not. It clearly has been, and that was recognised in the additional £600 million that we provided to the local government funding settlement this year. The funding formula has creaked and groaned under stresses and strains over many years. The hon. Gentleman is right to point out—he is not unique in doing so; virtually every conversation I have with anybody with an interest in or representing the concerns of local government draws attention to it—the two almost unstoppable trajectories of growth demand: in special educational needs and the support services that wrap around that area of local government service; and, at the other end of the age spectrum, in adult social care. Those are good news stories in themselves, because they are testimony to the success of the national health service in supporting people in their lives and ensuring that they are fit and healthy. Those things lead to additional and growing demands on the services of local government. Local government is rising to that challenge across the piece magnificently, but there is always work to do.

It is recognised across the two Front Benches that the funding formula does not need tinkering with or a little tweak here and there—it effectively needs dismantling and starting from scratch. Such things as the use of data to inform, the ability to define need, the ability to respect and reflect upon the differentials in need demand in rural versus urban, and in coastal as well, as was dealt with yesterday in oral questions, should all play into that. That is why I am talking to council leaderships across the country and to the wider sector about where we think the formula should land in the next Parliament.

The formula cannot be ignored, because we all want, particularly reflecting in this 50th year since the local government reforms of 1974, to find a robust and sustainable way forward, so that the future of English local government can continue for the next 25 to 50 years. Post covid, the sector asked the Government for stability and certainty. We have delivered that by not instigating a major review of the formula. As I say, that is a job for the next Parliament.

It is worthwhile just to look at the figures for Derbyshire County Council. Its managing director, Emma Alexander, has by her own admission described the council—and I agree with her assessment—as being sound and stable financially. That is good news for council tax payers and service users of Derbyshire because it means that, against that backdrop of sound and stable finances, informed and proper decisions and changes can be taken rather than knee-jerk reactions in response to pressures outwith the council’s control.

The council and Ms Alexander are realistic enough to highlight that the council’s next focus—its immediate focus—has to be on modernisation, implementing what they describe as “one council” working and new transformational strategic plans for the whole of Derbyshire. I think that that will drive efficiency. One can only hope that in that drive of improved efficiency, services will improve still further for the residents of Derbyshire.

This year’s settlement for the county council was a significant increase in core spending power of 8.3% on the previous year, up £54.88 million, making available a total of £715.3 million for 2024-25. The hon. Gentleman referenced some of the work done through the social care grant. It now means that for 2024-25 Derbyshire is receiving £140.2 million through that grant. Last year, of course, the Government awarded £70 million of levelling-up capital funding to the Derbyshire region, including £50 million for the South Derby growth zone and £20 million for Chesterfield town centre.

I suggest to the hon. Gentleman—and I think that in his heart of hearts he knows this—that one should look not just at the cold figure of the money produced, as important as that is, in the local government finance settlement, but at the broader ranges of support and intervention that the Government are providing across Derbyshire, including the town deal, the accelerated towns fund, the levelling up fund, the community ownership fund, the future high streets fund, the long-term plan for towns, levelling up culture, capital regeneration, the UK shared prosperity fund, the UK shared prosperity fund multiplier, the community renewal fund, levelling up partnerships and levelling up parks, all of which have generated significant sums of money for Derbyshire, alongside the grant and council tax-raising ability of the county council, to deliver services for local people.

[Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)]

May I say on behalf of the people of Derbyshire Dales that we are immensely grateful for the £13.5 million of levelling-up funds, without which the town of Ashbourne would be going back in time instead of looking to the future? There is also the shared prosperity fund. One of my towns, Matlock, will receive a lot of money and do a lot of good work. My experience of how the Government and the county council have reacted and responded to the needs of my constituents is very different from that of the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins).

I have had over 30,000 emails since my election, and a great number of them have been about local councils, SEND provision, potholes and other matters. The management of the county council by the Conservatives has been very good, and there is always more work to do. Who could not spend more money on SEND? These issues are precious to us, but given the money that is available, my experience is very different from that of the hon. Gentleman. I am worried that these matters have been brought up at this stage, mid-election, when really we need to look at the facts. Derbyshire County Council could always do with more money, but it manages the money that it has really well. The leader, Barry Lewis, is particularly good. He is a credit to us all.

[Simon Hoare]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the upbeat fillip, which we needed to hear from a representative of Derbyshire. I am delighted to hear that her constituents —and I suggest probably the constituents of Chesterfield, Erewash, Bolsover, across the Amber Valley, South Derbyshire, Clay Cross, Staveley and Long Eaton—are pleased to see the attention on them to deliver levelling up and make sure that those engines of growth, livelihood and success can be sustained.

I am convinced by the work of the Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Jacob Young) to deliver the East Midlands Combined County Authority. A £1.14 billion devolution deal for the wider west midlands to drive growth and boost opportunity demonstrates yet again—if demonstration were still needed—our commitment to devolving more money and power to local leaders. The establishment of the East Midlands CCA will open the way to providing considerable funding for the area. The combined county authority will have control of £38 million a year. That can be well spent and maximised with the election of my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Ben Bradley), who is standing head and shoulders above the other candidates for the post of Mayor. I wish him well. I wish the people of Derbyshire well. This Government stand behind them, ready to serve them, to meet their local and central Government needs.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con)]

2. What recent estimate he has made of the additional cost to the public purse of councils delivering public services in coastal areas.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

Cornwall is one of the most beautiful areas of the country, second only to Dorset. [Interruption.] Thank you. It has the longest county coastline in England and, as such, its council faces unique challenges in delivering services. The Government are committed to reforming the local government funding landscape in the next Parliament to deliver simpler, fairer and longer settlements. As part of that process, the Government have previously publicly announced that they are exploring options for specific formulae for flooding and coastal erosion. We will engage councils about those options as reform progresses.

[Steve Double]

The Government have already accepted the additional cost of delivering services in rural areas through the rural services delivery grant, but they have not yet accepted those additional costs for coastal areas. Would the Minister consider establishing a coastal services delivery grant to ensure that coastal regions such as Cornwall, which as he said has the longest—and most beautiful—coastline in the country, get the funding that they need?

[Simon Hoare]

Second most beautiful, I remind my hon. Friend. He makes an important point, representing as he does his constituents and the wider county of Cornwall, and an interesting suggestion. Strong points sit behind his argument. I would be delighted to meet him to discuss that further, but he makes good points and gives me food for thought.

[Sarah Dyke (Somerton and Frome) (LD)]

The cost of delivering services in Somerset is rising, with care costs rising by 47% between 2022 and 2023, yet urban councils receive about 38% more Government funding spending power per head than rural councils. What steps is the Department taking to address that inequality and help rural councils to deliver vital public services?

[Simon Hoare]

As the hon. Lady will know, the rural services delivery grant tries to reflect that as well, but if only the Lib Dem leadership of her council had got on—as Dorset did—and delivered the benefits of going unitary, rather than fiddling while Rome burns, her situation might be a little better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Morgan (North Shropshire) (LD)]

8. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of the level of Government funding allocated to local authorities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

In answer to the hon. Lady’s question, we make continuous assessment with regard to the adequacy of funding. In this financial year we have made £64.7 billion available to local government in England, an above-inflation increase for local authorities as their real-terms increase in core spending power is now up to £4.5 billion or 7.5% in cash terms. That includes the additional measures for local authorities, worth £600 million, that we announced on 25 January, having listened to the views of local government, to her views when she engaged in the consultation and to the views of hon. and right hon. Friends across Shropshire.

[Helen Morgan]

I thank the Minister for his answer, but we have seen Shropshire Council make £50 million of cuts this year, and we are told that there will be £60 million of cuts next year to avoid a section 144 notice. Local residents are particularly concerned about the potential closure of recycling centres and a likely increase in fly-tipping across our beautiful countryside. Does the Minister agree that rural councils are in danger of delivering nothing more than statutory services if things continue? Will he consider adjusting the way that funding is allocated so that rural councils are given an amount that reflects the cost of delivering services in their area?

[Simon Hoare]

The hon. Lady is right to point to the need to review the formula, which is a commitment for the next Parliament. She will probably be aware—I hope she is—of the £8.9 million extra that Shropshire Council received this year through the rural services delivery grant in order to deliver those sorts of services. Do I think rural councils have to reduce to statutory services alone? No. All my engagement with the sector points to a vibrancy and a commitment to innovation, shaping places and improving the lives of people up and down the country, including in Shropshire.

[Dame Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con)]

Trevor from the Drighlington memory café—Trevor has been ably supported by our fantastic Morley town mayor—Nicola from the Morley grief group, Dan from WF3 Kindness and Christine from the veterans luncheon club are just some of the amazing volunteers and community groups in my area who give up their time to help local people. Will the Minister join me in thanking and paying tribute to the unsung heroes in our communities across the country?

[Simon Hoare]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We should never lose an opportunity to trumpet our thanks to people like Trevor, Christine and all our volunteers up and down the country who make such a difference to people’s lives. They work alongside councils and other bodies to make life better and happier, and to make places more pleasant to live. I thank them unreservedly.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

Funding cuts are adding to the clear pressures on local government around the country. One such example is developers who come armed with substantial funds and resources to contest their planning applications. Locally, Warwick District Council had an application just last week that the planning committee was essentially advised to allow because of a fear of not having the financial resources to contest it. I have written to the Secretary of State about this issue. Should we be extremely concerned about it nationally?

[Simon Hoare]

Each planning authority has a quasi-judicial role to adjudge planning applications against national and local plans, and I have every confidence that planning committees up and down the country do that. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to refer to a 7.5% cash-terms increase for local government in this financial year as a cut, that is a very eccentric definition even for a Labour Member.

[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

Ministers are aware that Maldon District Council was allocated £5 million of levelling-up funding. My right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale), the council and I have been informed that the funding must be spent on cultural projects, despite our having a local plan that will see the closure of St Peter’s Hospital. We want the money to be spent on levelling up health and wellbeing, which is one of the five principles of levelling up. Will Ministers urgently review all our representations so that we can work at pace to sort out this terrible issue and level up our health situation?

[Simon Hoare]

My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point, and I know St Peter’s Hospital pretty well from a previous life. The Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Jacob Young), has signalled to me that he is aware of the issue, has sympathy with my right hon. Friend and will be happy to meet her in pretty quick time to discuss further details.

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Working people are paying the price of the cost of living crisis, but is it not the truth that the Liz Truss mini-Budget did not occur in a vacuum? There is a pattern of the Tories shifting the tax burden on to hard-pressed households. Council tax bills have rocketed by almost £500 since the Tories came to power, on top of which Conservative councils charge residents almost £280 more than their Labour counterparts. As voters go to the polls on 2 May, does the Minister hope that they will somehow forget the council tax bombshell facing them? Or does he expect that more candidates will follow the lead of the west midlands campaign and ditch the toxic Tory brand completely?

[Simon Hoare]

The hon. Gentleman wins first prize in the brass neck of the afternoon competition; I remind him gently and politely about the situation in Birmingham. It is well known by residents up and down the land that Conservative-led councils are more efficient, deliver greater improvement at pace and are far more focused on delivering for their residents. Colleagues and I will take that proud record to the voters during this local election campaign, and I have every confidence we will triumph in it.

[Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)]

9. What the criteria are for allocation of round 4 of the community ownership fund.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

T3. Given the proximity to the local and general elections, can Ministers give an assurance that the joint election security preparedness unit has all the resources it needs to do the job?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

This is a tremendously serious issue. My Department and other Government Departments, led by the Security Minister in the Home Office, are spending a huge amount of time, effort and resource in ensuring the safety of candidates; the safety, security and robustness of the process; and that all those who wish to take part in our democratic functions, in whichever fora they happen to manifest themselves, can do so safely and securely. That is a very firm commitment. The hon. Member will know that we are dealing with that as a serious matter.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

T9. In constituencies such as Aldridge-Brownhills, our green belt is precious; and once it has gone, it has gone forever. But in the west midlands, thanks to the leadership and vision of Mayor Andy Street and his “brownfield first” approach, we have seen 16,000 new homes built, and thousands of new jobs on brownfield land. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that clearly demonstrates that we can build the new homes we need and protect the green belt, and that it is Andy Street who is setting the pace and leading the way in the west midlands?

Citizens’ Assemblies and Local Democracy

Simon Hoare Excerpts

Tuesday 16th April 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Simon Hoare)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz, and to reply to the debate ably introduced by the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams).

Let me begin, as I always like to, by trying to find a point of agreement with whoever has raised the debate. The hon. Lady is right to talk about the importance of trust in politics and engagement in our political processes. Like all advanced, mature western democracies, we are living in difficult times. With social media, conspiracy theories, different people with competing views, the rise of populism and an uncertain world with many big geopolitical and environmental questions, no wonder a lot of people feel disconnected and discombobulated.

Public engagement is key. One of the strengths of our country, as the inbox of any right hon. or hon. Member will attest, is that we have very vibrant lobbying, including from the third sector, on a whole range of issues. I have been doing this job for eight and a half years and am still surprised by some of the groups out there that wish, perfectly properly, to make their views on certain issues known to their Members of Parliament .

We have vibrant, open and democratic political parties. Our advice surgeries are a wonderful opportunity to provide mini citizens’ assemblies, effectively, at which individuals or groups of constituents can come and talk to us about issues that are important to them.

I think we occasionally underplay our power to convene. We can convene all sorts of public or private meetings in our constituencies and invite people, either on a select list or via open invitation. I have done something very similar on environmental and climate change issues: I issued an open invitation and a whole raft of people in my constituency came, across the age groups. They certainly improved my knowledge and understanding of the issues. I hope also to hear, from the political perspective, some of the checks and balances and some of the challenges that the democratic process throws up.

There are ways currently being deployed to maximise public engagement and therefore, hopefully, to grow and inculcate trust. However, I do not subscribe, and nor do the Government, to the hon. Lady’s argument. She has put forward a perfectly respectable argument, and she has evidenced it as she has seen fit, but it is a question of judgment. As we all know, to govern is to choose, and often there are competing options. I do not think that we would address some of the fundamental problems that she set out at the opening of her speech by defaulting to the creation of citizens’ assemblies.

The right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) almost gave my speech for me.

[John Spellar]

rose—

[Simon Hoare]

Almost as if the right hon. Gentleman had been pre-timed, he is on his feet. I give way.

[John Spellar]

The Minister rightly says that the essence of exercises such as citizens’ assemblies is that they will deal with a narrow issue. The Government then have to choose between priorities: that is where essential political decisions get taken. There is then the opportunity for the British public to decide whether they like the direction of travel. Does he agree that we need to listen to campaigning groups, which play an important part in our democracy, but that ultimately it is the broader public who have to decide?

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. One of the great strengths of single-issue pressure groups is that they bring a whole wealth and range of in-depth knowledge on a particular system or issue. The downside is that a single-issue pressure group or campaigner does not look at the larger picture or take the balance. It does not have to govern by choosing. I have seen a lot of evidence to suggest that membership of single-issue pressure groups has gone up, but the mixed potpourri—the Woolworths pick ’n’ mix—of joining a political party, where people have to give and take and trim and tack, has proven less popular, particularly among younger people.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I think that there is a misunderstanding. Citizens’ assemblies are not about replacing decision making, but about trying to provide an evidence-based rather than lobby-based approach for a particular vested interest. Evidence is provided to the participants of the citizens’ assembly that is balanced and comprehensive and allows people to come to a consensus on a recommendation to policymakers, who then decide. This discussion has completely misrepresented what citizens’ assemblies are about. They are about the engagement of people with a particular policy issue.

[Simon Hoare]

I am not entirely sure that the hon. Lady has helped her cause with that further amplification of what she means by citizens’ assemblies. The point that the right hon. Member for Warley made was the right one: what will the outcome be? If one stands as an independent candidate, free from a party Whip and from supporting a party programme in government, one can of course seek the views of constituents all the time: “How would you like me to vote on this?” However, it fundamentally changes the Burkean principle of having a representative rather than delegatory democracy. I think our representative democracy, as set out in Burke’s famous address to the electors of Bristol, still holds us in pretty good stead.

I do not make this point facetiously: this Chamber is a citizens’ assembly in a representative democracy. We have elections to it at some point this year. In a couple of weeks, we will have elections to citizens’ assemblies, be they for the mayoralty, for police and crime commissioners or for our local councillors. We talk about the word “democracy”, but let us remind ourselves of the history of that word. It comes from the Greek words “demos”, meaning people, and “kratos”, meaning power—power of the people. We are the citizens’ assembly and we can represent the concerns of constituents in a whole variety of ways, through appeals to Ministers, all-party parliamentary groups, debates and the like.

I am all for involving as many people as possible. The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth was absolutely right to highlight the particular need to harness the intellect, enthusiasm and interest of our younger generations, who occasionally—slightly lazily, slightly arrogantly—turn off and turn away: “Oh, they’re all corrupt. They’re all this, they’re all that. Nobody listens.” When we ask, “Well, when was the last time you made a representation, asked to see someone, joined a lobby or whatever?”, they say, “Oh, I don’t bother with any of that.”

I say the following as somebody who voted remain in the referendum. After the event, there was a large pro-EU demonstration outside. I fell into conversation with about 20 young people, all of whom were of voting age. Only 10 had voted. The others told me that they had posted stuff on Facebook or put things on Twitter. I then had to point out to them that the returning officer did not count posts on Facebook or posts on Twitter; they counted ballot papers. That is how to effect change.

[Conor McGinn]

I think my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) posed a legitimate challenge around how, in a systemic way, we can create evidence-based policy based on participatory democracy. I am not convinced that the way to do that lies in citizens’ assemblies, but I entirely understand her point.

What I rail against—the Minister touched on this point—is the idea that politicians are not citizens. The Minister spoke about the formalised structure through which we can consult constituents. A good Member of Parliament who is rooted in their community will be doing that every day. I do it while doing everything from taking my kids to football, cricket and rugby to going to mass on a Sunday or the bookies on a Saturday. A good MP will be in touch with his or her community and will consult them all the time. That is a separate point from the one that my hon. Friend made, but it is important that MPs do not allow the perception to take hold that we are all rarefied species detached from people, because it is not true.

[Simon Hoare]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We do ourselves no service, as a group of people called to this particular strand of vocational public service, if we try to set ourselves apart like plaster saints who are in some way separate and uncontactable. I agree that we have to be within our communities. I usually have a citizens’ assembly when I drop my kids off at primary school or when I am in the queue at the supermarket or the petrol station: “Hello, Simon! How are you? While I’ve got you, can I talk to you about this, that and the other?” That is what an engaged Member of Parliament does.

I hear what the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth says, but it is the ballot box that creates the forum for those citizens’ assemblies, a representative democracy. We cannot have elections every six months, every year or whatever—as often as we may change our socks or our stance on a particular issue—but that is how this country selects its representatives to take decisions.

One thing I have yet to be convinced about, with regard to the efficacy of citizens’ assemblies, is selection through a random postcode lottery, as the hon. Lady set out. They hear evidence from experts; who appoints and defines who these experts are is a moot point, but let us just work on the principle for the moment. They give up a lot of their time, they take evidence, they come to a conclusion, and in coming to that conclusion they will probably find themselves operating in exactly the same way that we do: “I’ll give way on that point; you’ll give way on this point. We will find a compromise.”

It may work once, but I can just imagine somebody saying, “There has been a citizens’ assembly in my constituency and they have decided this, and they want me to vote this way or do this thing.” That may be a luxury of opposition—something I hope I never get a taste of, but who knows?—or it may come from somebody on the Government Benches. The right hon. Member for Warley is a seasoned former Whip for his party. I am not entirely sure what our Whips offices would say collectively to the idea, but they might well say, “Well that is all fantastically interesting, but the party policy is X. You availed yourself of the benefit of standing for party X, Y or Z, and you will have to follow the Whip.”

If we go back to those people who gave their time willingly at a citizens’ assembly and say, “I hear exactly what you said, and thank you for all your effort, but you cannot mandate me to do anything. I am perfectly free to do as I will, but my Whips have told me that that freedom is fettered and I have to do this, that or the other,” I am not entirely sure that the dynamic of citizens’ assemblies would create a self-perpetuating success story. The cold reality of the delivery of governing to choose, or choosing to govern, would hit the slightly abstract, theoretical way in which a citizens’ assembly might be run.

[John Spellar]

The Minister is identifying another part of the problem. First, Governments have to govern broadly and make trade-offs all the time. Secondly, those who attend citizens’ assemblies, and spend their weekends and everything else, are almost by definition not representative in the sense that we are. What makes us representative is that we are elected, but that does not make us normal in that sense. What it means is that ordinary citizens have other priorities, which is a very good and sensible thing. It does not mean that those who are prepared to participate are necessarily representative of the broader public.

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I would add that another thing they are not is accountable. We are accountable: we are accountable in a society with a free press and media, and we are accountable through the ballot box. We can hold surgeries where people come to see us and ask, “Why did you vote for that and against the other?” and so on. It is about not just the representation element, but the accountability.

As somebody who started as a grassroots member of a political party and got involved in politics by joining an action group to save a field at the rear of a cathedral that somebody wanted to convert into a car park, I am hugely in favour of the power of the citizen to get involved and effect change. It is demonstrable and clear, certainly to my mind, because I am a product of it. As MPs, let us facilitate and empower more people. Let us convene more discussions locally to get people involved so that they can see the merits of this place and so that once again, or continuingly, they can see the House of Commons, their council chamber and other forums where elected people serve as their true, real, legitimate and representative citizens’ assembly.

Question put and agreed to.